Andy (2:22)

I'm still a little, I would say, flabbergasted.

Sam Miller (2:25)

Ooh, flabbergasted. Okay, Sam, please explain.

Andy (2:29)

Well, I mean, you know, we've been baseball followers for a long time. Baseball continually surprises you, right? You can't predict it. And you know, every once in a while there's like a Kirk Gibson moment or like game six of the 2002 World Series or a 2014 wild card game things that just, like, shock you and you're still thinking about it months later. I don't think I've ever seen anything in a baseball game more surprising than a Jonas Brothers concert.

Sam Miller (3:00)

Yeah.

Grant Brisbee (3:01)

Can you guys walk me through this? Because I will be honest. During this stand up to cancer moment, I was trying to navigate the press box seating apocalypse that's going to happen at Dodger Stadium for all the people that the athletic is sending here. So I was talking to our various attendees who won't have seats in the press box about where they would like to sit. We're all going to be watching the game from, like, Santa Barbara or maybe Reseda if we're lucky. But what happened with the Jonas Brothers? They just, like, played a show, you.

Sam Miller (3:30)

Know, the stand up for cancer thing they do between innings, and they hold up signs. Well, so someone had the idea. They're like, okay, it's like a big think tank. They're like, what causes cancer? And they're like the Jonas Brothers. And so they're like, let's have them play so we can say, don't. Just don't, you know, just stop. And then everyone gets it. I think that's what happened. All right, Sam, you might be able to explain a little bit better.

Andy (3:52)

You know, we've been doing the SU2C placards for about 15 years now. They decided that the placard moment, moving solemn, really like kind of a reality jolt moment wasn't enough. So then they did a cutaway to a live Jonas Brothers performance of, like, maybe half a song. I don't think there was a good reaction to this anywhere. I mean, this was. This was a. This was a miss. I mean, there are blunders that have, like, if you're charting a blunder, there's two axes. There's like, how damaging is it? And then, like, how predictably it was going to go wrong. And the Jonas Brothers performing in the middle of the sixth inning, fifth or sixth inning, That's a low stakes blunder. But it is eminently foreseeable. You know, baseball is not a sport traditionally that has a halftime show and. And deciding to do it, deciding to pair it with cancer, felt weird. Like, just felt weird. But also, like, really, we don't stop ball games for music. Like, we don't do that. That's never happened. I mean, the only. There's a fairly famous. It's like, not super famous. It's like third tier baseball moment, though, from like the 822 World Series, I think, where. Where Ronald Reagan was interviewed on the broadcast between innings and it went a little long and like a minute long, minute and a half long, I believe it was. The Orioles pitcher came out afterward and like immediately gave up like a home run. And he's like, yeah, I mean that, like, obviously that totally messed me up. Like I can't have an extra minute between innings. I'm not built to adjust to things like that. And so to put a Jonas Brothers concert in the middle felt Reagan esque, I would say. And yeah, I, I don't know, there was some slippery slope kind of vibe to it. Like, are we gonna start getting shows and are they trying to do this now? Are they trying to. Because there has been halftime show creep, I would say, throughout sports where it used to be there'd be a Super bowl performer and then, then, you know, then it became like, oh, well, the, you know, college football national championship would have a halftime performer and things like that. Is baseball trying to get into that? Are they, are they trying to decide who's the cancer concert next year? It felt really not great. And then of course, I don't know, the Blue Jays didn't come out and immediately blow it, but they did eventually lose the game. You know, someone's gonna lose the game. It's pretty con. You're pretty sure that someone's gonna lose the game. If it's tied, someone's gonna lose it and blame it on the concert. I don't think the players that I saw blamed it on the concert. But plenty of Blue Jays fans were upset about unannounced Jonas incursion.

Grant Brisbee (6:32)

I just want to say before we move on, I have to disagree with my co hosts. I'm anti cancer. And, and I would tell my dad that if, well, whoops.

Sam Miller (6:48)

I will say I'm not going to like sit here and pretend like the sentimental value of a corporate sponsored, hey, remember this bad thing? Like, I'm not gonna pretend like it's sacred. But at the same time, I, the first time I did the stand up to cancer was 2015 in Kansas City. Held it. I, I, you know, I, I can't remember who. I put it up every World Series after that that I went to, my father in law had pancreatic cancer. And so it was actually like writing that name.

Grant Brisbee (7:13)

Did. I think it's great. Yeah, I think it's a great, it's a great thing actually.

Sam Miller (7:17)

Like the whole time. Yeah, it's. And then you see, and then everyone in the booth, you know, you got Smoltz, he's picked someone you got Joe Davis. I actually really enjoy it, but I just wonder if I'm sitting here because I would get in my own head, like, I just be thinking, my father in law was like my best friend. And I was just thinking about it. Just all. It would, like an inning, thinking about it. If the Jonas Brothers came on while I'm deep in thought, like, is there an artist? Is that, like, if Beyonce came out, like, would everyone be, like, cool? I guess, you know, like, is there something that has enough universal. Like, is there a Jason Stark of musicians?

Grant Brisbee (7:50)

Oh, yeah, you just heard Van Morrison croon in. Da da da da da da da da da da.

Sam Miller (7:56)

Jackie Wilson says, you are a freaking glutton for punishment.

Andy (8:05)

I think there was a misunderstanding of how much goodwill people would have toward this moment. You know, like, obviously it's. This is the one. The cancer placard is the one time of year where we. Other than like, maybe, I guess a big record breaks, but it's the one time of year where we go, okay, yeah, sure. Stop the game. Stop the game. Let's do something. And we don't accept that because, like, we're bored of baseball and are, like, eager for the distraction. Like, it's specifically the solemnness of the moment. And. Yeah, I don't know. I just think they misunderstood how willing the fans would be to extend that moment into a pop song that you haven't heard their latest single or whatever.

Sam Miller (8:41)

Andy, you have to know this is coming. Pull up the spreadsheet. When's the last time when I listen to what the Jonas Brothers?

Andy (8:47)

The Jonas Brothers or any Jonas Brothers, Singular is fine.

Grant Brisbee (8:50)

Yeah, I mean, I think I've listened to, like, Joe Jonas's soul.

Dana (8:53)

Let me.

Grant Brisbee (8:54)

All right, I'll just search. I listened to the Nick Jonas record spaceman in 2021.

Sam Miller (9:03)

I heard someone was in the mention saying, actually, the solo stuff isn't bad, so I don't know anything about them.

Grant Brisbee (9:08)

Yeah, the thing with all these guys is, like, it's chemically engineered to sound okay. You know, it's kind of, like, hard to make it offensive. You know, they're like, the music's built in a.

Andy (9:18)

They kind of made it offensive. I think I was a little offended.

Grant Brisbee (9:22)

If you interrupt the baseball game after the emotional cancer tribute, you know, to sing Cake by the Ocean or whatever they played. Like. Yeah, it's not gonna get, you know, a lot of.

Andy (9:32)

Let's.

Grant Brisbee (9:33)

We gotta move on how. This is crazy.

Andy (9:36)

Let's transition to Fat Joe's performance before the 2024 World Series.

Sam Miller (9:41)

Oh, Man One Time lyrics born Sam, you'll enjoy this Lyrics Born saying take me out to the ball game at a a Giants game I was at yeah and he was bad, man. It was. I don't know. You know, he probably just couldn't hear himself. It wasn't great, but I I was like the one in the stands called Lyrics board what's up dude?

Andy (9:57)

That's more of a lateef verse than.

Sam Miller (10:00)

A lyrics more I would think so. I would think so. I would okay, let's move on. Let's move on. Sam if the Jonas Brothers were a baseball player, would they be Nick Swisher? Let's get into some World Series talk. I really enjoyed baseball Prospectus today where, you know, it's, it's, they're talking about Craig Goldst learning what we already know. And then Mike Petriello was on, was on Blue sky saying, yeah, here's what we've learned. Dodgers have good starting pitching. The Jays can string some hits together. When they're going right. It's like, that's what we knew going into the World Series. Have you learned anything? Is there something that surprised you so far, either one of you?

Grant Brisbee (10:37)

I think we can, we can settle the Emmet Sheehan discussion that we had a few times. Sam was right. Not a guy right now. I think long term still could be a very productive pitcher as a starter, but does not appear ready for prime time as a reliever and probably won't get many more assignments there. So that is something that I feel like I have learned, even though it's probably been. I probably should have known that coming in.

Andy (11:05)

What we've learned is it's kind of weird to phrase it as what we've learned, but I mean, normally when you have a statistical outlier, you go, oh, well, there's a signal there, but probably regression toward the mean is the expectation. And what we knew about the Blue Jays, like, was that they, they don't strike out much. And rather than that kind of regressing a little toward the mean, it's gotten more extreme in the postseason. You know, not striking out four times against Blake Snell, like in a Blake Snell start. It's just they're pushing further out, they're pushing the boundaries further out. And like you, you actually watch it with your own eyes and you're like, oh, wow, they hit that pitch, they put that ball in play again. Like you expected there to be a signal there. You expected that. Well, that's a trait that they have. But to see them push it further and in the same way we knew that the Dodgers vulnerability was their bullpen. And you go, wow, they've got a, you know, five ERA or whatever. Probably will regress toward the mean and It'll be like 4.5 going forward. No, no, it's going to be a thousand. Like they don't have a single out in that bullpen right now. To watch it just get more extreme under, under pressure is sort of like fantastic and like can't look away from it and makes you just think again, like, you know, going forward, if they can get. If, you know, if the Blue Jays can hold the Dodgers starters to 16 outs, they're going to feel pretty good in every game. And if the Dodgers starter throws a complete game, it's going to be really hard obviously for them to win, for the Blue Jays to win. So I think we've seen some confirmation. But I don't know, it does still feel kind of new, like just to see both of these things, they're spiraling, they're not, they're not getting closer to the mean, they're getting further out. We're seeing a real like, I don't know, clash of contradictions or whatever. So those are things we've learned kind of otherwise. Yeah, it's still basically on pace for Dodgers and six, right. Like that's kind of the, like now the Dodgers have home field advantage. They split on the road. If they were already a little bit of a, you know, better team, it advantages them. And game six is Yamamoto pitching. So that seems like a, an appropriate place for this to end. As played so far, you know, it.

Grant Brisbee (13:17)

Sets up games 3 and 4 specifically feel like there's a real possibility for some, you know, demolition derby baseball in that, you know, Max Scherzer and Shane Bieber are pitchers who the Dodgers theoretically should be able to get to. You know, Dodgers offense has not been operating at a particularly high level, but you know, they can kind of get right at any moment and they'll probably play better at home. They did on the road at the same time. Tyler Glasnow and Shohei Ohtani are both pretty. I mean Ohtani definitively is like not going to finish the game as the starter and Glass now is probably, you know, going to be in that 16 out range that Sam was talking about, which means Blake Trinen coming to the mound here at Dodger State. You know, like there's, it's going to be. I have a sense that these could be, you know, some higher scoring games, I guess for both sides rather than, you know, kind of two. I wouldn't call game two a blowout, but Yamamoto was just in such control after the team, you know, went up 3:1 that it just, it felt like a blowout.

Andy (14:16)

Shohei Ohtani is in hundred pitch range now. I don't think he's likely to throw a complete game, but he's stretched out to 100 plus pitches at this point. And you know, the guy does do whatever he wants, right? So I'm not totally ruling out that this is the, the new Shohei Ohtani moments about to drop. I don't know. I'm not ruling it out. It's interesting because I don't think this is like a trait of the Blue Jays. I think this is probably just randomness. But you know, the Blue Jays edge as we talk about is keeping games close, putting, you know, forcing the Dodgers to use their bullpen, relying on the leverage parts of the bullpen, which the Dodgers don't have and the Blue Jays kind of do. And thus far, the Blue Jays haven't really played any close games. They hardly play any close half games. I was looking at the leverage index, the, you know, the leverage index of all the plays in the series. And leverage index measures how much the game is in flux, like how much the next act is likely to tilt it. And 1.0, that's average. 1.0 is an average leverage moment. And if you look at like for instance, the 2014 royals, the median play by leverage index in their postseason run was sixth inning, one run game, runner on base and two outs. Like that's the median leverage.

Sam Miller (15:34)

That's so good.

Andy (15:35)

If you look at the median leverage for a Blue Jays game in this postseason, the median leverage is 0.67 and it is top of the fourth down, four nothing, nobody on base. Like that's the average stakes that they've been playing in. So somehow they just haven't played close games on either side. They either blow out or get blown out. I don't, again, I don't think that's like anything intrinsic in them. I don't think it's predictive of what's going to happen. But let's say it is. Let's say that there's something about them that, you know, diverges wildly each day that makes it a lot less likely that they're going to have, you know, three trips, three, you know, three high leverage, quote unquote, high leverage Dodger relievers in the game.

Sam Miller (16:18)

I think I learned, I'm not sure if I learned this or if it's just a welcome reminder. But I'm feeling less confident with that third time through the order mandate and Yamamoto just showing like, yes, they've seen me twice. The first two times they. They couldn't do anything with me. I am still, even with those extra looks, better than the other options that Dave Roberts can go to. And this is a very clear, obvious. Like you, no one was saying pull them three times through the order. But it's a reminder that, like, when go was doing what he was doing, that he gave it up. You know, all he can get now is a loss in a quality start. And there's a lot of the, the real. Two time through the order, zealots were like, yeah, man. Like, that's, that's. That's on. You know, that's on the Blue Jays, that is. They set that up. And I just think that there's a middle ground. I wouldn't have pulled Gossman, like, I just wouldn't have done it. And then to see the Expos facto reasoning, it drives me nuts. It's like my least favorite part of postseason baseball, even if I understand it.

Andy (17:19)

It was a long kind of public education campaign to convince people that starters can't be trusted past a certain point. I think that was useful information. Yeah.

Sam Miller (17:29)

Oh, 100%.

Andy (17:30)

And now we have a burgeoning, hopefully a burgeoning public education campaign to convince the public that relievers also can't be trusted. That pulling your starter in the third inning because you've got, you know, eight guys who were pretty good in the regular season, you know, it's just another gamble. Relievers are all unreliable. There have only been four good ones in the history of Major League Baseball. None of them are in this postseason. And I'm sympathetic. I mean, I. I have also been yelling, leave them in at the TV a lot more than 2015, Sam would have thought capable of. Partly that's just because both bullpens are a little bit soft, one more than the other. You're going to give up runs. There's not. There's not great options. It's like 27 ounce a lot to get. And, you know, as the cliche goes, you're picking your poison. But there have only been. Other than the Dodgers, there have only been four starters this postseason. Four games, four starts that reached 100 pitches. And I would say that's probably. Yeah, only four have reached 100 pitches. I would say that's probably an overreaction to the 2000 and tens. And I think 100, man, that guy. If your guy's Good. I think he's got 12 more in him.

Grant Brisbee (18:49)

It's obviously an overcorrection to that era of, you know, mid 2010s baseball where especially in the National League, where you would see a pitcher hit for himself in the fourth or fifth inning at, you know, 80 or 75 pitches and you're like, he's about to go through. This is so bad. You know, like it was so obvious what the move is. But now remember, moving the pitcher hitting from the equation, I think it's just become really treated academically. Like you plan it out as if, okay, this guy's going to go two turns through and then we're going to make the move. It's like scripted out before the game. And I think it makes total sense to try and game plan how you want the night to go. But sometimes, especially in say game seven of the American League Championship Series, maybe you got to feel the game and watch what's happening rather than follow the script.

Andy (19:40)

Right.

Grant Brisbee (19:41)

I think with someone like Yoshinobu Yamamoto, as compared to Kevin Gossman, Gossman is like a, is great. Like, I don't not, you know, no, Grant, he's not an ace, but Gossman is great. You know, he's had a really great career, but he's a two pitch guy basically, right? He's fastball splitter and he was getting a lot of outs, kind of just challenging the Dodgers in the zone and beating them in the zone in a way that did not. The Dodgers probably left some meat on the bone there, there a third time through for Kevin Gossman, right? He doesn't have as many weapons to get you out a third or fourth time. Yoshinobi Yamamoto throws like four plus pitches and six pitches total. You know, and the thing that he's capable of doing is like he's basically like facing, you know, two or three different pitchers in the course of a game, specifically with his ability to command all the different stuff and just he just like lights up quadrants of the strike zone that you are unfamiliar with. You know, there's like, you know, some guys just like, you know, like, I think, you know, Garrett Cole and Justin Verlander kind of worked on like a vertical plane, right? You know, and they're kind of like up and down. They're getting you up and down. Some guys get you in and out. Yamamoto is everywhere. Like, he's, you know, he's hitting the top, you know, glove side, he's hitting arm side down. Like he can just kind of spot it wherever when he's right. And so that sort of conglomeration of looks makes it, that's a guy who can finish a game because he, even if his stuff is down somewhat, you know, that third or fourth time he's facing you, he's not attacking you the same way. I just think most pitchers lack the gifts to do that. Like he's, there's a reason that, you know, I mean the age was why he got so much money, but there's a reason why there was so much interest in him coming over. He's like the greatest pitcher to ever come out of Japan, you know, like, and that's not saying nothing. And he's been really good ever since he's got here. You know, he's like only getting better. It's, it's impressive to watch.

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Sam Miller (22:45)

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Grant Brisbee (24:01)

Yeah. It doesn't mean that he can't do it, and it doesn't mean that he hasn't do it. It just means, like, it's. It's tougher, you know, because he's got kind of the two weapons, and you've seen him a couple times.

Sam Miller (24:10)

And I wonder if, because baseball kind of pivoted to that, the vertical strikes throwing Verlander and Cole a lot when the uppercut swings and the launch angle revolution was coming, that was able to design it. And I wonder if pitchers like Yamamoto and Logan Webb, kitchen, I mean, Logan Webb led the National League in strikeouts. And his reasoning, and he explained it this way, is, I have a shitty four seamer now. Like, I just. It's a bad four seamer, but I can go more vertical than I could in addition to my horizontal. And I would love that to see it. I would love that to be a trend with pitching. Just a kitchen sink married with the stuff and the control of the modern pitcher.

Grant Brisbee (24:48)

Like, Logan Webb is one of the best pitchers in baseball. You know, not an ace, not an ace, but he's like one of the best pitchers in baseball. He's one of the best in baseball at doing what he does, which is working, you know, sort of east to west, right. With the sinker slider combo. So for him, adding a mediocre four seamer is a real value add. If you're not elite in sink or slider, adding a mediocre four seamer, it's like, well, you're just throwing another mediocre pitch. And that's the thing that, like, you know, it's why, like, Clayton Kershaw has wanted to change up for so long. It's like, if I could throw even a decent change up, it would make me so much more effective. He just Physically can't do it, but, like, you know, it's just. Because it just gives you something to put in their mind that they have to worry about in addition to this incredible thing you already do.

Sam Miller (25:34)

At the risk of derailing this, did you talk to Clayton Kershaw about what made it so difficult for him to throw a change up? Was it.

Andy (25:41)

I know this. This was the thing I was most excited to read in Andy's book. It was the single thing that I wanted his book to answer, and he did.

Grant Brisbee (25:49)

Yeah. The major thing is he can't really pronate. Sam, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, because I forget I've kind of blocked out much of what I wrote, but basically, everything he does from the. Everything he does kind of cuts in some way. You know, like his slider obviously cuts. His fastball has kind of a true. Or used to have, like a. A true ride. But he doesn't do anything that goes that way, that goes arm side. Everything he does orients the way his delivery works. Just orients towards glove side. And in order to do a changeup, you have to be able to. I believe it's. Pronate your elbow in the opposite direction. And he just. He just can't pronate.

Andy (26:27)

He's a natural supinator.

Grant Brisbee (26:28)

Supinator? Yeah.

Sam Miller (26:29)

Named after Jeff Supan.

Grant Brisbee (26:32)

That would be sick if it actually was.

Andy (26:37)

Isn't the kick change a change up for supinators?

Sam Miller (26:39)

That's supposed to be the idea. And I was. It's funny, I was just thinking about the kick change in my garage the other day, because it's like, wait a second. Wasn't that supposed to revolutionize the game, like, three months ago, and I don't hear about a kick change anymore? Did people just start calling it a change?

Grant Brisbee (26:53)

I don't know.

Andy (26:54)

The kick change and the torpedo bat canceled each other out. It was. It was a great waveforms. Got it. It was a spectacular issue of that comic book. But, yeah, they both died in the end, unfortunately.

Grant Brisbee (27:07)

I. My natural skepticism. Basically, when the sweeper came through, I was like, shut up about the sweeper. You know, but now that's like a major pitch. And so when the kick change came in, I was like, ooh. Like, all right, I'm not falling for this again. Like, I'm not going to just push this aside like the sweeper. And it's like, no, I was right. I was right to be skeptical, but that's neither here nor there.

Andy (27:29)

I want to retract my comments. I'm a fan of the kick Change. I'm a fan of the Torpedo bat, so I don't. I'm just making a joke.

Sam Miller (27:34)

I mean, I was a fan of the Torpedo bats. And then the Yankees get into yet another World Series, and here we are talking about cheating in the World Series.

Andy (27:45)

Very exciting though, to see the question of whether there would ever be a World Series complete game again answered so promptly. Yeah, I think we can.

Sam Miller (27:52)

We said that, didn't we?

Andy (27:54)

Yeah. I think we can agree that Yamamoto is the one true ace.

Sam Miller (27:59)

Like, I don't want to give producer Brian homework, but I feel like we mentioned the Dodgers specifically in this postseason.

Andy (28:05)

I think we said created in a lab or something like that to have a complete game in the World Series, something like that.

Grant Brisbee (28:12)

I'm gonna be fascinated to see how Yamamoto does in the Aces project this year.

Andy (28:17)

There was a meme like maybe 15 years ago about, I don't know, like John Heyman had tweeted that some, like, I don't know who it was, may have been Jeff Supan had made like 80 million more dollars because of his World Series performance and people. But as far as the Aces project go, I mean, he just. He probably just got eight more first place votes or eight more ace votes just from the last two starts. Right.

Grant Brisbee (28:41)

I mean, he also made 30 starts with a 2, 49 ERA. Like, you know, it's 175 innings, so that's maybe a little light for Ace them. But that's, you know, on a, on a per inning basis, he's really elite because I feel like, you know, Skubal, Skeens and Crochet are all going to. I don't know if they're going to be unanimous. I think Skeens and school will be. Crochet probably will be unanimous. And then I think Yamamoto will probably come in fourth. But I don't know. It's just a. It's. Yeah. And he was. He was seventh last year. We shall see.

Andy (29:11)

I don't know. That's a.

Grant Brisbee (29:12)

That's something I'll be interested to track next spring.

Sam Miller (29:15)

Let me posit this question for you. If the Dodgers can have the same dynamic for the future games of Snell and Yamamoto, by which I mean one of them has it, one of them doesn't. And by has it, one of them really has it. And one of them is just like another starting pitcher, like we've seen throughout the postseason. Can the Dodgers win with that template? Do they need like one more baffo starts or can they. Do they need something from. From Otani Glass Now, Snell and Yamamoto, like, can they get by with this, you know, one guy doing complete games? Shenanigans.

Grant Brisbee (29:48)

Well, they need their offense to, like, be good. Like, their offense has just not been great all October. And some of that is because they've been pitched well by, you know, the Phillies and the Brewers. But, like, I don't think the Blue Jays have pitched at an exceptionally high level. I think, you know, so I think they need their offense to like, chew up and spit out, you know, Scherzer and Bieber over these next two nights. And frankly, you know, Trey Savage, who's like a really talented young man, but is, you know, literally in his first professional season of baseball, the Dodgers should be able to get to him.

Andy (30:22)

Yeah, I mean, Dodgers games shouldn't be this close all the time. Like, they led the league in scoring, National League and scoring. You know, they were second in the National League in OPS plus. And you just keep waiting for the bullpen not to matter because they've scored 11. I mean, you don't expect that to happen every time. They're not, they're not like an iconic greatest of all time offense. They're like, not even like that great by the standards of their last 10 years, but they are probably the best offense in the game. Like, when you adjust a little bit for park and you know, like the experience these guys have and the lineup is all healthy right now, like, they're not missing a single key batter. They ought to be. I mean, it shouldn't be like 3, 3, 3. It should be like, oh, like 3, 5, 12. 3, like, and so the 12 should give them a little bit. But it just hasn't happened, I mean, since the Reds. They haven't had that game one time. They haven't had one game where you're like, wow, they are really putting pressure on this, on this pitcher, like nine guys straight. So maybe that clicks in in the next five games or maybe it doesn't. But I mean, I guess what I'm saying is that the Dodgers have a lot of ways to beat you. They have a lot of paths to winning, and they've really been reliant on their starting rotation having like a historically great month. But that's not the only way they've won this year or that they've won in the last, you know, decade. So to answer your question, I mean, maybe they can, they can survive. Some, some, maybe they'll be good. I mean, they could have won. I don't know.

Grant Brisbee (31:57)

Well, it's one of those things where, like, you know you can't win the World Series. And then afterwards, ask Dave Roberts, like, hey, are you worried about Ohtani's at bats? You know, it's like, look, the games are over. Like, it does. At this point, it doesn't really matter that, you know, Ohtani's approach is maybe a little, you know, out of whack. Like, they're winning. They're three wins away from the World Series. All the.

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Sam Miller (32:22)

All right, you guys are Blue Jays fans. How are you feeling about. I'm not. I'm saying, you know, hypothetically, you are putting yourselves in the. In the brain of a Blue Jays fan. How do you feel about Trey Savage coming back? Like, this is sort of. When. Sam. When you were talking about young pitchers and the average of what they do in the postseason, it was a lot closer to just the median. A young pitcher is. A young pitcher is just a pitcher. This. This feels like.

Andy (32:44)

It's like.

Sam Miller (32:44)

I don't know, like it's weaponized. This. This scenario of a young pitcher with such little experience with. You've seen the highs, you've seen. I don't think you've seen the lowest lows, but you've seen him struggle a little bit. How are you feeling seeing him go out again with championship hopes online?

Andy (33:00)

If I'm a Blue Jays fan, I probably have just an enormous crush on him, and I can't really look at it rationally. I was really amped to see Solomon Torres on the last day of the 1993 season. Like, I was ready to go. Yes, Savage. You know, there's. This is always a factor, but the familiarity. The familiarity question. Young pitchers do get, like, an advantage the first, you know, the first time through the league. And I would say that that is probably more true of you, Savage, than most, because so much of his, you know, like, hype or his, you know, his plan is about having a look that these guys haven't seen. An extreme release point, an extreme split, and they have all seen him now. And not only have they all seen him now, but they've all seen him four days before they're gonna face him. So in that sense, I would feel like, you know, it could blow up. I wouldn't feel as confident as I would the first time, you know, the first time he faced him, to answer your question, I guess not that great, but not. Not terrible. I mean, he's got stuff. He's a good guy. He's a good pitcher.

Sam Miller (34:04)

Yeah. Andy, did rookies terrify you in the postseason or are you just. Are they a pitcher? As a pitcher?

Grant Brisbee (34:10)

As a pitcher, I think they're worse. They're less experienced and they're more tired, you know, but then occasionally you get a Josh Beckett situation and it's like, you know, it's, it makes a guy's career in some ways or at least like sets up the reputation for a guy's career.

Andy (34:25)

So Andy might not have been here when we did the spreadsheet.

Sam Miller (34:28)

No, I don't think he was.

Grant Brisbee (34:29)

Oh no? Tell me more.

Andy (34:31)

Well, we looked up all the rookie starting pitchers in postseason games going back like 25 years or something like that, and they were like clearly better than the average pitcher. And partly that's because they have a higher bar to clear to convince their manager to, you know, to use them. So you know they're going to be. But they have not, you know, they've been collectively as a cohort. They have a clear winning record and better than league average era.

Grant Brisbee (34:54)

Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, that is, that is interesting.

Sam Miller (34:57)

And I have no idea because one of the. We talk a lot about the Dodgers strengths in the rotation and in the lineup, but they also have a great ability to process and distribute the data and make sure that everyone can understand it. And there's just a part of me, even after game one that thinks maybe like the one weakness or if there is a weakness in that ability to gather and distill data is someone where you just don't have that much data. And you know, you can see how he, how he carved up the Yankees and, and how the Dodgers were successful against him in game one and try and repeat that. But to me it just, it feels like the Dodgers and this is totally just pulled out of another regions but that, that they like cost certainty more than just they don't like surprises. I would, I would guess the front office.

Grant Brisbee (35:42)

Yeah, I mean I don't think you Savage pitch particularly well in game one. And also, you know, the Traject machine has been updated so that now it can replicate his I forget about those things delivery. So they could been kind of using.

Andy (35:57)

That maybe they said that the Mariners before they faced him had like set up a, set up the iron mic on like a step ladder or something like that.

Grant Brisbee (36:05)

Yeah, yeah. Apparently like literally in between the ALCs and the world Series, the Traject software is up updated to include Trey Savage, which like it's not like he's the stilts guy from the Savannah Bananas.

Andy (36:18)

No, it's Like Barry Bonds hitting off the guy on the trampoline in the Japanese game show.

Grant Brisbee (36:23)

Like, he's like a normal sized human. Like, I get that he has a very high release point, but, like, it's not, you know, also the thing about being a rookie pitcher is, like, yes, he does have this release point that is really, you know, crazy. And he's throwing this splitter that seems like it's, you know, dropping down from Newfoundland. But he's also a rookie who, like, didn't have a splitter. Like, he just. It was like he just. In game one, he couldn't throw it. He couldn't command it. And that's a thing that happens to, you know, to young pitchers that doesn't in general happen to the more seasoned guy. So I don't know, I just. I feel like it's hard to. To have a set feeling other than skepticism. But I could be wrong. I mean. I mean, I am an idiot. I mean, anyone who listens to the show is well aware of that.

Andy (37:12)

I think to kind of answer the question you're getting at, Grant, the Blue Jays will have the starting pitcher disadvantage every start they don't have. There is no point in this series where Kevin Millar is going to say, don't let us win tonight because we've got, you know, these two guys the next two days, they don't have that. They don't have anybody who you're like, if we can just get. And that's true of Gosman, that's true of your Savage. I'd still probably would pick you Savage over, you know, like, I'd pick him over Scherzer if it, you know, got to a game seven or whatever. And I had to choose.

Sam Miller (37:44)

But what if Aaron Ashby was on your roster?

Andy (37:46)

I think I would choose. I might choose Allen Ashby over some of these busters.

Sam Miller (37:51)

A good, good poll.

Grant Brisbee (37:53)

Did you guys find the Kevin Millar, Aaron Ashby thing as funny as I did? Because I can't stop thinking about it. I guess no one's all that funny. It just really makes.

Andy (38:01)

I don't know, this one. You're gonna have to tell me this.

Grant Brisbee (38:03)

We've talked about it, like, on the last three episodes. Just. Oh.

Andy (38:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Grant Brisbee (38:07)

The Malari Shaughnessy thing, your joke, it's just. Yeah, it's just so funny to me. Yeah. Anyway, let's move on.

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Andy (40:20)

Like, as far as appreciating things in this world Series, like, it is a real blessing that the world gets to appreciate Mookie Betts playing shortstop. I just can't get over 32 year old playing position for the first time. Moving all the way up the defensive spectrum to the hardest position to play other than catcher. And he wins the fielding Bible award for the best defensive player at the position in all of baseball at 32. Like that. If you told me a 32 year old won that for a shortstop, I'd be like, that is already Crazy. But his first year at the position with, like, no experience there since the minors. And, you know, you watch him, like, it's been two games in this World Series, and you already are like, oh, yes, I am completely locked in on this. I get it. Entirely passes the eye test. Dominates the eye test. Moogie Betts is the great. I mean, he is a great. He might be the great player of our generation. Like, he. He spent most of his career as the second best player alive. And then, you know, Ohtani and Judge came and just basically wiped everybody else off the face of the earth as far as, like, intrigue and achievement. But Mookie Bets, like, is quite possibly gonna end his career with the most war of anybody in the extended eras that he overlaps. He's now 12th all time in defensive runs saved from anyone at any positions. And he's, like, two good months away from being eighth. He has to, you know, keep from giving runs away in his decline phase. But I declared. I wrote once about favorite players. Do you guys have favorite players? Are you favorite player Haver, like, as.

Sam Miller (42:01)

A kid or as an adult?

Andy (42:02)

As an adult, yeah.

Sam Miller (42:04)

You know, I always loved Andrew McCutcheon in his prime. I just loved watching him play Andy.

Andy (42:09)

Cynical for Squan Barkley.

Grant Brisbee (42:11)

No, I liked really watch Cliff Lee. I liked watching Cliff Lee.

Andy (42:14)

Oh, yeah, he was good. So I wrote once about my favorite players throughout my life. And what I noticed is, like, when I was a kid, I'd have a new favorite player every year or, like, every six months, like, a quick turn of favorite players. And the older I got, the longer the favorite player kept up. And I sort of declared that Buster Posey had become my favorite player in 2010. And I think that was it. I think he was just. I was gonna die. He was gonna be my favorite player 30 years after he'd ever played a game. But, man, Mookie Betts is, like, right there. He is just so much fun to watch. And I'm glad that he's in this World Series whether the Dodgers are ruining baseball or not. I'm glad that everybody gets to watch this old man play shortstop at this level. And I hope they appreciate it. I mean, you know, I am appreciating it.

Grant Brisbee (43:01)

I met up last night with Pedro Mora, the former athletic and longtime baseball writer. He wrote a great book called how to Beat a Broken Game about the Andrew Friedman Dodgers that I would highly recommend. But now he's. He's like. He basically just, like, works outside all the time now. He's, like, kind of off the grid. And he doesn't. He claims he does not pay attention to baseball, which I sort of doubt sometimes. But he was asking just like, what's up with Mookie Betts these days? And I was like, oh yeah, he's become the best shortstop in baseball. And he was like, oh yeah, that sounds about right.

Sam Miller (43:33)

Like, you know, I want to make sure that this comes across the way I want to say it. But it reminds me of the difficulty that Shohei Ohtani has trying to pitch. And I don't want to minimize what Ohtani does because that's like the most amazing thing anyone's ever done in baseball. But the idea of someone moving to shortstop in the 30s after no infield, I mean, very. He obviously played a lot of second base. But minimal infield experience to me is just as unrealistic and fantastical of. If you're describing the scenarios, Jimmy, I would just point at both and equally say with confidence, those can't happen.

Andy (44:12)

I might have said this was his first year or something like that. He's immediately great or something. But it's actually more interesting because he played a bunch of shortstop last year. And the impression I got again being blacked out a Dodgers game, but the impression that I got from everybody who had eyes and was, you know, administering the eye test was that he was a problem there, that he wasn't very good at shortstop. And so to actually, to actually conquer this position, I mean, he was exactly what you would expect a 31 year old shortstop playing for the first time to be and then 32 then to have him improve this much, it's like, feels like a true miracle.

Grant Brisbee (44:46)

Yeah, I guess the, the Ohtani thing is, is, I think it's, it's different, you know, for obvious reasons, but then also like, I don't know, like Juan Soto plays right field. Like, imagine if Juan Soto just became an elite shortstop next year, right? Like that would be, you know, Tayosker. Like, imagine Teosker Hernandez just like becoming an elite shortstop next year. Like, it's kind of hard to. It's kind of hard to fathom, you know.

Sam Miller (45:07)

Yeah, we're putting Juan Soto behind the plate. You should see this dude frame strikes. Like, he's got such command of the strike, zone, baby.

Grant Brisbee (45:14)

I mean, could you, could you imagine, you know, Fernando Tatis Jr. Converting from right field to shortstop? Now that would be a story Bryce.

Andy (45:21)

Harper we talked about. So we gotta, we gotta come back to this story. Dave Dombrowski went full podcaster and had some hot takes involving the distinction of elite or not elite regarding his most famous player. And we wondered whether it was intentional, whether it was a strategic attempt to, you know, motivate Bryce Harper to like, I don't know, work hard or something like that. And I would say that it is predictably backfired incredibly from this, from this, from this like totally unnecessary press conference answer that he gave. There started to become trade talk around Bryce Harper. Bryce Harper now is pissed off. He's not happy. He's not happy that they said these things. He's not happy that he has to live with trade talk. He said he didn't sign a 95 year deal with no opt outs so that he could be the subject of, of trade talks. And Dombrowski has said, I'm not trading Bryce Harper. If you're denying, you're losing that this is, I don't remember how the West Wing put it, but you don't want to be denying. And so it's, it's like a story that I don't think anybody in that organization probably thought they were going to be dealing with right now. Dombrowski hasn't spoken to Bryce Harper this offseason, which it feels like after that press conference you'd shoot him a little text, be like, you like what I did there, buddy. Just that you guys are pals. Andy, I don't know. Take us, take us where it needs to go.

Grant Brisbee (46:48)

Well, I mean, I do think there is an element of, you know, 2025 media Ouroboros here going on. So Sam outlined, you know, yes, Dombrowski went full podcaster, you know, is Joe Flacco elite, etc. And then, you know, Joel Sherman of the New York Post was, he does a Yankees podcast and he was asked by his co host, you know, in light of these comments, do you think the Yankees can acquire Bryce Harper? And Joel was like, no, he has 10, five rights. It's an expensive contract. I don't think the Yankees will be able to acquire him. And I don't think a trade of him, you know, makes sense for either side or maybe makes sense for the Yankees, but like it doesn't, you know. And then, you know, he got in a little bit until the, Joel got into a little bit of the kind of back and forth between the Phillies and Harper over the past few years, which we will get into in a minute, and said something to the effect of would it 100% shock me if he was traded this offseason? No, but it's most. But you know, he's not, probably not Going to get traded. So this of course became clipped and reported as New York Post. Not shocked if Harper's traded, right? I think anyone watching the clip in full context would understand that Joel's, you know, podcasting, right? Like he's doing a podcast, you know, And Lord knows if they, if anyone listened to this show and clip the stuff I said, right? And I had any influence in the journalism world, we would have caused a hundred, you know, problems, right? So it's out there in the world, you know, and to be clear, like Joel is, I don't think anyone who writes about baseball can think along with executives and understand how executives, their minds work better than Joel. And that's not to slight, you know, the, the other first name guys, you know, Ken Passin, buster, like Joel is just, he is so good at understanding out front offices work, right? So he made clear he was speculating, but his speculation is more informed than almost everyone. Now, Dave Dombrowski talked to John Heyman, also of the New York Post and said, I am not trading Bryce Harper. That is not a thing that is happening. And there are ways to talk about these things without saying that when an executive says, that's not really something that's front of mind, or I anticipate him being on our roster next year, right? That's them saying, yeah, I'm trading this guy, okay? But I'm not going to tell you that, right? Or at the very least, keeping open the door. Dave Dombrowski closed the door. Not being traded. We are not trading him. After that story comes out, Matt Gelb of our excellent Phillies writer here at the Athletic gets talks to Harper. And at that point, Harper's like, I'm really hurt by this trade talk. And it's like your GM just said, there is no trade talk. The context of all of this is that when Harper signed his contract with the Phillies, it's not like there were 10 teams offering him $300 million, right? And there were a lot of questions among other teams about, you know, his makeup, about, you know, what sort of player he would age into if he was worth being a franchise guy. I think it's become very clear that Harper answered all of those questions and clearly is a guy with great makeup, franchise guy, someone you can build around all those things. But back in, coming off the 2018 season, there were not a lot of teams willing to make that commitment. The Phillies were one of them. And so because of that, Harper took a deal that has an AAV that's probably well below market, especially in light of you know, Vladimir Guerrero's contract, for example.

Andy (50:24)

Right.

Grant Brisbee (50:25)

And so as Harper started to answer those questions, winning The MVP in 2021, you know, being a real important part of that incredible World Series run the next year, there started. He started to speak openly about how he wanted an extension. He's like, I want to finish my career in Philadelphia. To which the Phillies were like, we signed you for 13 years. What are you talking about? And the undercurrent of all of this is that, is. Is that, you know, they would like the contract to be, you know, to better reflect what his current market value is. And the Phillies are just sort of like, dude, what? Like, you signed this. So this idea that. I think that probably Dombrowski should have been in contact with Harper's camp to clarify his remarks, if that's what he was interested in, which was, you know, if he was interested in quelling any concerns about Harper. But I think you can probably, based on how Harper has taken it, it was clearly a shot across the bow of like, you know, we can. We can fire back to. And, and was that productive? I. I mean, I don't know. I mean, we'll find out if it's productive if they win the World Series next year and he wins the MVP or something. But I think the subtext of all of this is just, you know, the ongoing sort of back and forth about the idea of extending a 13 year deal. If that makes sense.

Sam Miller (51:48)

That does put it into context. I like that. I just want to know if. If there are aggregators listening right now. It would not shock me if the Dodgers traded Yamamoto to the Giants in the off season. I will. I'm not anticipating it. It would not shock me. I am national baseball writer Grant Brisbia, the athletic.

Andy (52:08)

Yeah, you've seen some things. I mean, you've seen the Jonas Brothers in the middle of a game, you. You in play.

Grant Brisbee (52:15)

Yeah, we get aggregated for, you know. Idiot podcaster impersonates Van Morrison again.

Sam Miller (52:21)

You want to hear my Van Morrison impersonation? Yes, because I don't like Van Morrison.

Grant Brisbee (52:28)

I. I'm starting to become a Van Morrison head. I gotta tell you.

Sam Miller (52:32)

That is like we should all say, because I know one of your biggest gaps, Andy, is neutral milk, hotel, airplane. Let's see. My. My all time biggest gap is astral week weeks. I keep trying once a year. I keep trying astral weeks.

Grant Brisbee (52:47)

So the thing about someone like. Here's the thing about someone like Van Morrison, though, is like, I like some of the individual records, but you can also just like, just Listen to the greatest hits like you're not being a normie loser. If you just take someone and listen to their greatest hits because it's hard. If you listen to his greatest hits, you will be like, oh, I like that song.

Sam Miller (53:05)

Oh, yeah. No, I like. I do like.

Andy (53:09)

Yeah.

Grant Brisbee (53:09)

You know, and that's the. That's the. Like, it's okay to just like the hits. There's a reason they're hits.

Sam Miller (53:16)

Sam, what's your critical darling that's missed you?

Andy (53:18)

Probably Tupac. Yeah. I don't know why. I don't dislike it or anything like that. It just.

Sam Miller (53:23)

Sometimes it just misses you.

Andy (53:24)

Yeah. Yeah, it's odd.

Sam Miller (53:26)

All right. This has been episode number 188. When we get back, the World Series. Yeah, World Series might be over by the time we get back. Calendar blindness. I've defeated you, and. But it's probably still going to be going on. So we'll see you then Friday.

Grant Brisbee (53:48)

I was very wrong.

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