Sophie Winkleman - The Digital Experiment on Our Kids and It’s Not Going To End Well...

Summary

---

The Winston Marshall Show

Episode: Sophie Winkleman – The Digital Experiment on Our Kids and It’s Not Going To End Well...

Date: November 11, 2025

Host: Winston Marshall
Guest: Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)

---

Episode Overview

In this probing conversation, Winston Marshall sits down with actress and campaigner Sophie Winkleman to dissect the all-encompassing impact of smartphones, social media, and educational technology (edtech) on today’s children. Winkleman, known both for her acting work and for her advocacy following a viral speech on the dangers of screens, discusses how technology is rewiring children’s brains, social skills, learning capabilities, and even basic health. The episode is a wide-ranging critique of the “digital experiment” being conducted on children, its downstream effects on society, and the urgent need for policy and parental intervention.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Sophie Winkleman Became Active on the Issue

• (04:10) Winkleman attributes her activism to both personal experiences and extensive charity school visits, where she observed very young children normalized to screen use.
  • “Three year olds being given iPads for their birthday and people thinking that they were giving these children a hugely fun, exciting toy...then it’s very quickly too late to reverse what happens when you give a child a screen.” – Sophie Winkleman

2. The Scope of the Problem: Not Just 'Harmful' Content

• (05:23) It’s not only overtly harmful material causing damage—endless, "harmless" short videos decrease focus and train children’s brains for constant, quick dopamine hits instead of deep attention or creativity.
  • “Constant videos of sort of animals falling downstairs...seems completely sort of no problem at all. But it’s getting the children used to something very, very quick and pointless...It’s a concentration span problem...” – SW

3. Physical & Neurological Harms of Screens

• (06:47–08:14)
  • Sleep Disruption: Blue light affects circadian rhythms and postpones sleep by 1–2 hours.
  • Obesity: Tied to sedentary screen habits, not just processed foods.
  • Hormonal & Possible Thermal Issues: Device heat and hormone interference noted as under-examined risks.

4. Gendered Impacts of Technology

On Girls

• (08:35–14:12)
  • Self-esteem & Mimetic Behavior: Instagram, fitness apps, and influencer culture drive harmful comparisons, eating disorders, and self-harm.
  • Perpetual Peer Pressure: School social dynamics now follow children home 24/7 through group chats and social media.
  • Cosmetic Surgery Rates Up: Desire to "worship" or become like influencers.
  • Role of Groups: Even WhatsApp becomes a source of anxiety and exclusion.

On Boys

• (14:22–18:53)

  • Social Withdrawal: Boys replace real interaction with gaming and online “socializing.”
  • Addiction & Incel Phenomenon: Pornography, gaming, and avoidance of real-life challenges.
  • Radicalization & Crime: WhatsApp groups used as vehicles for knife crime and radicalization.

  “The correlation between online groups and knife crime and radicalization is significant...” (18:08, SW)

5. Screens as Childcare & Developmental Setbacks

• (21:32–24:17)

  • Parents resort to screens for peace and convenience. Winkleman herself confesses guilt and sympathy for this reality.
  • Early excessive screen use is linked to speech delays, lack of potty training, and even children swiping at books.

  “All the nursery teachers and speech and language therapists are saying there’s this huge contagion of poor little toddlers who...are emotionally discombobulated. All the sort of things that happen when kids have had too much screen time.” (21:49, SW)

6. Imagination & Creativity Eroded

• (24:05–25:05)

  • Passive consumption replaces boredom, fantasy, and self-directed play—the foundations of creativity.

  “Kids not getting bored is stifling creativity in a tragic way.” (24:17, SW)

7. Prevalence & Public Health Blind Spot

• (25:05–25:54)
  • 97% of British 12-year-olds own smartphones.
  • Public health authorities (like the NHS) fail to warn parents about early screen dangers.

---

8. EdTech: The Gamification and Dehumanization of Learning

What is EdTech?

• (26:22–27:21)
  • Education platforms that substitute screen-based, gamified activities for traditional classroom learning.

Evidence Against EdTech

• (27:22–30:39)
  • Studies (Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, John Jerim in the UK) show screen-based learning impairs outcomes; Swedish policymakers reversed course, dumping digital for paper textbooks.
  • Screens fragment attention; on internet-enabled devices, children remain “on task” less than half the intended time.
  • Reading and learning are more superficial on screens—children don’t absorb or retain as much.

Economic & Social Dimensions

• (31:23–35:54)

  • EdTech is a multi-billion-dollar business with little accountability or evidence of efficacy.
  • Often justified as progressive, but really a money-saving mechanism that replaces effective teaching with shallow “productivity.”

  “There’s a phrase that teachers are being relegated from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side.” (31:23, SW)

• (36:14–39:40)

  • Schools pressured by contracts, training, and economic incentives; even independent and state schools are now tech-heavy.
  • Parents have been sold the idea that tech equals progress—ironically, Silicon Valley execs send their kids to low-tech schools.

Edtech Encourages Shallow Learning

• (39:05–40:21)
  • “Adaptive” and “personalized” learning platforms reinforce the status quo of struggling children rather than elevating them.

Data Privacy Concerns

• (34:00–34:59)
  • Children’s data is harvested and sold, often without parental knowledge.

AI in Education

• (45:54–46:50)
  • Teachers are now “detectives” trying to discern what is student work vs. AI.
  • Over-reliance on AI robs students of essential skills and effort.

---

9. The Alternative Models & Solutions

Best Practices from Michaela School

• (50:06–52:16)

  • Winkleman praises Catherine Birbalsingh’s Michaela School: no screens, clear structure, badges for achievement instead of digital dopamine.
  • Human relationships with teachers are central.

  “Going to her school, you’re filled with joy and so are the children. The lessons are so...thrilling. The teachers love the children. Children love the teachers. They want to learn. They do utterly brilliantly.” (51:12, SW)

What Should Replace EdTech?

• (39:05, 42:53)

  • Return to pen, paper, and high-quality textbooks for everything but core digital skills.
  • Teach tech as its own subject—not embedded everywhere.

  “You can become completely digitally literate...in two hours a week. It doesn’t need to be eight hours a day...” (43:01, SW)

What About Government?

• (40:47–42:26)
  • Ideally, top-down regulation could set standards, but current trends push standards down rather than up.
  • Winkleman advocates for robust legislation restricting children’s access to smartphones and social media, suggesting a ban for under-16s (or better, under-18s).

---

10. Policy Efforts and the Challenge of Regulation

Online Safety Act & Legislative Limits

• (59:36–60:15)
  • The Online Safety Act had “noble aims” but can’t keep up—children can easily circumvent with VPNs.
  • Blocking children’s access to smartphones is a more effective root solution.

International Models

• (64:00–64:37)
  • Cites Australia: banning social media for under-16s—including YouTube (which is now dominated by TikTok-style short “reels”).
  • Sweden: Abandoned edtech in favor of traditional learning materials.

The Collective Action Problem

• (54:14–56:06; 60:29–62:44)

  • Peer pressure and the network effect make it impossible for individual parents to opt out without government action.
  • Tech-safe phones for minors exist but only parental buy-in or legal enforcement can make them mainstream.

  “Until it’s made, you know, ubiquitous and you cannot give an under 16 year old a smartphone, it won’t work.” (58:08, SW)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the root problem:
  • “These Internet enabled screens are causing mass brain damage. It’s not an exaggeration.” (23:12, SW)
• On group chats and the new 24/7 school bullying:
  • “Anywhere where a herd can collect is a very bad idea. I think for children it’s not safe. Not only weirdos joining...but children themselves.” (10:31, SW)
• On parents and “digital rights”:
  • “Surely a child’s main right is to be safe. I don’t understand what you mean about digital rights. Why do they have a right to destroy their brain?” (61:15, SW)
• On teenage regrets:
  • “I’ve never met one who said I’d miss it and I’d be...so they’d be like, yeah, that would be brilliant. I’d be able to think...” (65:38, SW, quoting teens on living without smartphones)
• On the creators of addictive apps:
  • “It’s because the weird little spotty computer nerd in the classroom who we all thought was grim, is now determining how normal people behave...That’s what I always wanted when I was 13, and none of you were talking to me. And so all of us who are normal are completely going mad. It’s not making people happy.” (68:43, SW)
• On adapting screens for all:
  • “You don’t have a choice in schools. Your kid goes to school, is put on a screen for hours. There’s a big radioactive smart board in the corner...” (37:22, SW)

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Time | Topic/Quote/Speaker | |------------|---------------------------------------------| | 04:10 | Sophie describes her personal motivation | | 05:23 | “It’s a huge sprawling wilderness...it's a concentration span problem...” (SW) | | 06:47 | Physical harms: eyesight, hormones, obesity | | 08:35 | Female-specific harms begin | | 14:22 | On boys: “Addicted to video games...terrified of life and get into real trouble...” (SW) | | 18:08 | Online groups, knife crime, radicalization | | 21:32 | Screens as childcare and developmental harm | | 24:05 | Effects on imagination and creativity | | 25:05 | Prevalence statistics, public health complaints | | 26:22 | Definition and critique of EdTech | | 30:39 | Economic & business forces behind EdTech | | 34:00 | Data surveillance and safety concerns | | 37:22 | John Jerim’s study (books vs screens) | | 39:05 | “Go back to books. ...don’t let it bleed into every other subject...” (SW) | | 42:53 | Books not tablets as default; special needs exceptions | | 45:54 | AI use in homework and assessment | | 50:06 | The Michaela School model | | 56:06 | Tech-safe phones for minors as a solution | | 59:36 | The limits of the Online Safety Bill | | 64:00 | Australia's under-16s social media ban | | 65:38 | Teenagers' regrets and nostalgia | | 68:43 | Tech creators “deciding” how we live | | 73:18 | Winkleman’s stark warning on attention spans and joy |

---

Final Reflection

Sophie Winkleman offers an urgent, sometimes bleak, but deeply informed perspective on the harms of unfettered digital technology in children's lives. Her prescription: rollback smartphones and social media for minors, replace most EdTech with traditional learning, and resist the temptation to "digitize" away childhood. The episode balances critique with practical (if challenging) solutions, and calls for robust, collective action rather than leaving parents to fight a losing battle alone.

---

Transcript

[Darina]

Hi, I'm Darina, co founder of Quo. You might know us as openphone. My dad is a business owner and growing up, he always kept his ringtone super loud so he'd never miss a customer call. That stuck with me. When we started Quo, our mission was to help businesses not just stay in touch, but make every customer feel valued, no matter when they might call. Quo gives your team business phone numbers to call and text on your phone or computer. Your calls, messages and contacts live in one workspace so your team can stay fully aligned and reply faster. And with our AI agent answering 24. Seven, you'll really never miss a customer. Over 90,000 businesses use Quo. Get 20% [e-mail] tech that's Q U O.com tech and we can port your existing numbers over for free. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers.

[Grainger Advertiser]

If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Jerry Insurance Advertiser]

You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurance in minutes and helps you switch fast. With no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor, download the Jerry app or head to Jerry AI Acast.

[Winston Marshall]

Hello and welcome to the Winston Marshall show with me, Winston Marshall. I sat down with Lady Frederic Windsor, or as you may know her better, Sophie Winkelmann. She is of course a well established actress, but now has become one of the leading voices when it comes to how tech technology is affecting children. In this conversation, we look at how social media, screens, smartphones have irreversibly damaged a whole generation of kids. We also look at ed tech, how it's infiltrated into schools, how AI is affecting the way kids learn, and how brains are being developed. All of this and much more. Before you hear from Sophie, I just wanted to say thank you for your continued support. Remember to press, subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts from. And if you head over to WinstonMarshall.co.uk, you'll hear an extended conversation between me and Sophie where we explore what's going on in Hollywood, particularly with regards to all the political virtue signaling. That's [e-mail]. but without further ado, Sophie Winkleman, Lady Frederick Windsor, thank you so much for coming onto the show. People will know you, of course, by your maiden name, Sophie Winkleman. You were absolute legend for me growing up, given your illustrious acting career, not least your role as Big Suze in Peep show, but also because of your roles in Harry and Paul and Two and a Half Men. And so people will be familiar there. But you have now now gone absolutely viral and I think for good reason, which your speech at Ark earlier this year, which I think might be the definitive lecture on the issue of smartphones and children and how social media is affecting a whole generation of kids. And you are doing a lot of work on this behind the scenes, which is what I was hoping to talk with you today about. Not just the effect of smartphones but also edtech or the technology in our school systems. But before we get to EdTech, let's look at the smartphones situation. I guess before we do that, actually, sorry, I should ask you, how did you personally come to this topic? Like, what was so important about this issue that you took it up?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think it was personal and on a much wider basis of visiting lots of schools, which I do with an education charity, and just seeing what was happening to children around the country and seeing younger and younger children having phones and it being normalized and, you know, three year olds being given iPads for their birthday and people thinking that they were giving these children a hugely fun, exciting toy and then it's very quickly too late to reverse what happens when you give a child a screen, one of these Internet enabled screens, because they are completely thrilling and toxic in equal measure. So personal and in a broader context.

[Winston Marshall]

School, home support, is this the.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay. And so actually Internet enabled screens might actually be the key because when I first came out this, I thought, I just assumed it was social media. There's a problem. But actually look a little bit deeper. It's not social media. It's actually the fact that smartphones have front facing cameras or back facing or whatever, face facing. And it's the blue light.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yep.

[Winston Marshall]

And there's the various ways in which dopamine is triggered through the screen. So it isn't just smartphones. It's also the iPads. And have I understood that correctly?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

It's a huge sprawling wilderness. And it's not just smartphones, it's not just social media, it's not just obviously damaging platforms like Instagram. It's also short form material which can be completely harmless. It's not only harmful material that's the problem, it's harmless material as well. Constant videos of sort of animals falling downstairs seems completely sort of no problem at all. But it's getting the children used to something very, very quick and pointless. And their brains are not able to focus on longer things very, very quickly. It's a concentration span problem, which I think's almost as serious as seeing harmful material. I think it's as big a problem, the neurological one.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, okay, so let's go through then, is that you've got the concentration aspect. And so there's a neurological development. As I think we know that brains sort of have a neuroplasticity until they're about 25, but even after that they're still developing and growing. So it does affect adults as well, which we might touch on. But before that the brain is developing, particularly at puberty and there's all these various ways in which these screens are affecting that development. I wonder if we might explore all the downsides and paint a picture of, of how these screens are affecting kids.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Of course, I think it's good to start with the sort of physical downsides of staring at a screen for hour upon hour per day. You've got eyesight damage, you've got hormone disruption. Light from the screen disrupts children's hormones.

[Winston Marshall]

How so?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

It's something to do with the brain. It definitely affects sleep. It sort of makes the circadian rhythm much later. So if a children's looking, a child is looking at a screen at 4, 5, 6 o', clock, they'll be going to sleep on average one or two hours later than they would be if they hadn't been looking at it. Which is why so many parents are angry that homework's now on screen. Because they shouldn't be having screens after school. It's because they're so addictive. Children aren't moving anymore. They're in their rooms and they're on screens and they're getting fat. It's. Sorry to say it, but obesity is directly related to screen use. You can talk all you like about ultra processed foods and yes, they're very bad, but if kids are weren't completely wrapped by these devices, they'd just go out. Cause they got Bored and they'd move more and they'd be thinner. There's also. What do you think of this? I think any device which gets hot after too much usage, I'm not a scientist, so I can't talk about electromagnetic radiation stuff. I'm not qualified to talk about that. But I don't see how an iPad or a smartphone which gets boiling hot after about two or three hours of use, I don't know how that's healthy to a child's body.

[Winston Marshall]

I'm sure you're right. I'm sure you're right. It's had an effect on male and females. I wondered how differently, but definitely with females we're seeing an increase of self harm, eating disorders, the trans phenomenon. I wondered if what you could tell me about those. Am I right in saying that this is a more female issue than a male issue?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think you're right. It affects boys and girls generally in different ways. I think girls, when they get to sort of 11, 12, 13, are biologically desperate to fit in. They just want to be exactly like their peers. And it's why loads of parents, including me, surrender and say, okay, have the damn thing. Because they just want to be like all their friends. And so when they see, you know, these beautiful tiny girls on Instagram showing off their amazing lives, they start thinking, oh my God, maybe I need lips like that and maybe I need eyebrows like that. Maybe I need skincare like that. Maybe I shouldn't have dinner with mum and dad. Okay, maybe I'm going to do this fitness app because mum won't realize that's what's making me thin. And maybe I'm gonna do 200 star jumps in my room. And you know, girls get sort of sucked into wanting to be the same as these so called role models they see on social media and they get very ill from it and all their classmates are doing the same and they. It's a dangerous vortex for them to go down. It's also a problem for girls who can be so nasty to each other in school that classroom politics now carry on 24 hours a day. In the old days you could leave the scary stressful girls and go home and just, you know, exhale and be without it for the time you were at home. Even if home wasn't ideal, you could get away from the school environment. Now it's 24, 7 and lots of sensitive kids cannot handle it. I wouldn't have handled it. God knows what I'd have done. I found school very hard.

[Winston Marshall]

I wouldn't have coped I imagine it's worse as well because this applies to both men and women. But if you say something nasty to someone, like when you're a kid, you actually see their face and their response and it might check your behavior. You might learn, actually, maybe I shouldn't behave that way. But on social media we see this on Twitter with adults or ix with adults, people are just saying rancid stuff and they don't see the consequences. But actually if they're face to face with these people, they probably wouldn't say it because they know they get smacked in the face.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

But there's the, there's that side of it of saying vile things to each other because you've got the separation of not being the same room. But it's also tiny things. It's like a class WhatsApp group and you say something you think is funny and the cool girls don't react. That can sort of, you know, trigger a spiral of anxiety that can ruin your whole night. Tiny little things can go huge and painful to a sensitive adolescent. So I think some parents think, you know, I won't give them Instagram and I won't let them have, you know, maybe Snapchat, but I'm gonna let them have WhatsApp cause what's the harm? And anywhere where a herd can collect is a very bad idea. I think for children it's not safe. Not only weirdos joining, pretending to be, you know, the teaching assistant or the sport, you know, not only group boomers, but children themselves. They have to be protected from each other and they shouldn't be in big virtual groups.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, well, we're going to come to how exactly we protect them and we'll address that later. I still want to paint the picture of the problem we've got. So I just want to talk about the trans issue because this has been a big phenomenon the last few years now. Before social media, we saw that young girls had a greater propensity for self harm and issues like anorexia. And that's, I believe, because young girls have a high propensity for mimetic behavior. That's something I actually learned through Louise Perry, who's just on the show. And we're seeing that with the trans phenomenon. Abigail Schreier wrote a phenomenal book called Irreversible Damage.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

And it tracked how the trans issue had, through social media, had affected young girls specifically as a demographic. And so I, I, I wondered then what your take on that, whether you agreed with that general view that the trans issue had been that cohort of the trans phenomenon, that that aspect of the trans phenomenon had been exacerbated by social media.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I don't feel quite qualified enough to talk about this aspect of it. It's not something I've studied. The only thing I know about it is that autistic girls are most likely to transition and be affected by people giving them propaganda that maybe that's why they're feeling really weird, is because they're probably in the wrong body. And that's something I found tragic and terrifying to read about.

[Winston Marshall]

Just before we move on to men. Cosmetic surgery, is it the case? And we see this with, let's say, the followers of Kim Kardashian and the types that young girls are getting cosmetic surgery at an increased rate than they were in previous generation.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yes, because they see all these influencers who they aspire to young girls, I think young boys do as well in terms of sort of footballers and stuff. But young girls have something in them that they want to worship something. They want to worship someone or something, whether it's a pop star, whether it's Taylor Swift, whether it's Dua Lipa, whether it's, I don't know, Kardashians. They just want to be little acolytes. I don't know what it is biologically about young girls that just want to be followers, but they do. And they see these sort of creatures all over social media with these enormous lips and these sort of painted on eyebrows and these fake asses and they think that's desirable. I don't look like that. And their insecurity sets in, which is, you know, it's always there with young girls and they go and do these terrible, irreversible things with bad actors and bad practitioners who just want a cheap buck and they can damage themselves forever.

[Winston Marshall]

So that's the sort of scope of female damage. What's the story with men? How is it affecting young boys differently?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think it's affecting young boys in all sorts of ways. I think young boys can find it harder to socialize than girls. I think young girls socialize too much. They're too obsessed with what their mates think. And I think some young boys find it much easier to stay in behind a screen, even if it's video gaming. And they're apparently being social. They're in a room, they don't have to look at someone in the eye, they don't have to make conversation. And that can calcify at far too young an age. And we're seeing boys who are completely Addicted to video games who can't leave their rooms and their parents have to bring their sort of dinners on trays and not disturb them and not ruin their sort of point count. And then they get terrified of life and they get into real trouble when they're late. Teenagers, that's one thing. The sort of gaming aspect when you see virtual socializing as a replacement for interaction in real life.

[Winston Marshall]

Because, sorry, they are socializing on those games. I know that a game like Fortnite, for example, that they actually interacting with their friends, but whilst playing the game. Yeah, so it is a mode of.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, it's a mode of socializing. But then I think they don't want to meet up properly. So they don't leave their rooms and they're not getting exercise, they're not going to play football in the park, they're just sitting on a screen. So even if you say, well, it's a lot better than some things, yeah, it is, but it's still not optimal and we should, you know, aim for what's optimal with our children, that's what's driving most of us who are campaigning mad. Why aren't we setting the bar right up here? Why aren't we saying, well, at least they're not watching very hardcore anal porn anymore? Okay, well, they also could be learning an instrument or doing some sport or talking to their siblings. They could be doing those things.

[Winston Marshall]

Right, right. I mean, it's not entirely clear to me that they aren't watching porn anymore. I think that. But maybe we'll get into that. But before we do gaming, if I make to make the case for gaming is that it teaches us kids to problem solve. And the best case scenario is that even someone like Elon Musk, he still claims to be a gamer now. And it does develop that ability, which I would see as a good thing.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Gaming isn't on my hit list at all. It's fine. It's just. It can get so exciting. It takes over everything else. So I don't know if it's possible to do gaming in moderation. I think it's too exciting and too fun, which is the problem. But it's not on the sort of. It's not even on the top 20 list of screen harms. I don't think.

[Winston Marshall]

So. What then about porn? What is the effect of porn? Is it more of a male problem, a boy's problem, than a girl's problem? How are we seeing the.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, it seems to be more of a boy problem in that. I mean, it seems to be from what I've read that girls can be shown something once in a playground and be so disgusted they don't want to look at it again. That is what I've read mainly. And boys are fascinated by it and they do get quite addicted to seeing more and more extreme stuff. And then any chance of an encounter with a girl in real life with all the embarrassment and sort of mishits that happen, is just unthinkable. And that's when the sort of incel thing creeps in and you start having boys who really desire women but also fear them horribly because. And it's again, real life becomes harder, the fiber of real life becomes disgusting and off putting and you just circle yourself in just virtual comforts. And I think that's frightening and I think we have to look at it.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, so that's a general sense of all the damage being done to boys.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

And girls also, sorry, boys. I think lonely boys get sort of drawn into WhatsApp groups of sort of local friends or whatever, neighbors, people on their. People who live near them. And the sort of correlation between online groups and knife crime and radicalization is significant. You can look up all the stats on why knife crime has exploded and it's all facilitated by WhatsApp groups. You just, people, boys wind themselves up into frenzies about who deserves to get it, you know, next week and you just say meet you then. And sort of 40 kids are involved. It's, it's.

[Winston Marshall]

So you've actually seen that there's a correlation between knife crime and. When did. Would this have come in after what, 2012? When the smartphone is.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think it's been. I think it's been steadily increasing. People I've spoken to in this sphere have charted, you know, the symmetry of knife crime, rising smartphone use, enticement to terrorism, enticement to any kind of radicalization, whether it's the trans stuff, whether it's. That's not, that's not radical. Yeah, it is radicalization.

[Winston Marshall]

Trans is absolutely radicalisation to persuade young children that they are not the sex that they are is radical on a level that it's just shocking that we've even at any point that that was acceptable.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

It's what I said. If there's herd activity, it's dangerous for children. If there's sort of unchecked, you know, heard stampeding, that's not safe. And that's what online groups are.

[Winston Marshall]

When you say the terrorism. And presumably now we're in the realm of the more explicitly political and radicalization. What, what have you seen then amongst young boys behavior in that realm?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, I don't think the Southport stabbings would have happened if that boy hadn't been looking up terrifying, awful things online. What I'm arguing for, I don't know why under 18s need access to the Internet. Untrammeled Internet access, where they can find anything. And I'm really sorry, but the Online Safety act will date every single day. It will get old every day. There will be new ways around it.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh, the Online Safety Act. And we're come to this because immediately the next day, VPN virtual private network sales went through the roof. Like, kids are smart. They just immediately got around it. It was bas pointless, the whole project, as well as being just shockingly hard to read and a terrible document. We'll come to that. So we've done a pretty good scope then of how it's affecting boys and girls.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think so.

[Winston Marshall]

But I wondered if we might just, before moving on to that, go to how young it's affecting kids. Because initially coming at this, I had thought, oh, this will be when they're sort of starting to socialize, hitting puberty, 12, 13. And that's when it, as you describe, it's not just the sort of reels on Instagram and TikTok, it's also what's happened. There's a sort of social aspect to it, but it's also the case that it's become a form of childcare.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yes.

[Winston Marshall]

And I actually understand this. For working families who are already working several jobs, as well as having to look after their kids, it's really easy to give an iPad or a phone to the kid who is then will shut up, will behave. And actually, I sympathize.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I do. And I'm guilty of it. I totally sympathize. I'm totally guilty of it. But you're right, it's happening to younger and younger children because all the sort of nursery teachers and speech and language therapists are saying there's this huge contagion of poor little toddlers who are coming into their spaces unable to talk. They're not potty trained, they've never seen a book, they sort of swipe books. They're emotionally discombobulated. All the sort of things that happen when kids have had too much screen time. All these teachers are seeing it and they're trying to raise the alarm. And they're also horrified that there's now gonna be a online test for nursery school children, which is just been brought in. And it's just. It's Normalizing screen use in the academic setting. I know we're going to get onto that. But yeah, giving your sort of two year old an iPad is totally understandable when you need to get some work done. And it just keeps them completely quiet for hours on end. But it's having huge ramifications in terms of every layer of development.

[Winston Marshall]

I'd love to know what the sort of solution would be for that. Because what do we tell working families to instead? What do we give kids instead that will do the job like an iPad will?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I know nothing will do the job like an iPad will. That's what's so worrying. We've gone so far and it's so easy and it keeps children quiet for so long that parents are gonna have to accept that it's gonna be hard, really hard work again. And knackering and a lot of it's boring. But probably a child sitting on the floor with a load of sort of implements, I don't know, like a wooden spoon and a whisk is better than being on an iPad or just sort of crawling around or looking out the window. It doesn't have to be anything active actually. It's just this really bells and whistles stimulation and entertainment is harming children's brains. And it really isn't an exaggeration to say that these Internet enabled screens are causing mass brain damage. It's not an exaggeration.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. And I'm sure it's affecting the imagination of kids and the ability to come up, you know, if they're just shown everything.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Exactly.

[Winston Marshall]

They're not actually developing their ability to be creative.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

They're little passive vessels and they're being bombarded with funny stuff that's actually not very funny. But they're never having to create their own fun or create their own worlds. And the negating, the need to imagine it's happening in the educational sphere and in general childhood. It's so sad. And I think once you lose that facility, it doesn't come back. You don't start being able to imagine stuff when you're 15. You have to start when you're 2 and you're bored. And kids not getting bored is stifling creativity in a tragic way. And I think that's also bleeding into the educational sphere where kids don't have to imagine stuff anymore and they're just fed stuff and they click on it. It's all part of the same beast.

[Winston Marshall]

Do we know how many kids have got smartphones and is it at what age, let's say teenagers is It, I.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Think it's 97% of 12 year olds in Britain have smartphones.

[Winston Marshall]

And do we know what percentage of, let's say toddlers onwards are? We have these types of screens in front of them.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

All the safe screens and health professionals for safe screens have, have all these stats. But it's, it's, it's massive and it's getting bigger all the time because the NHS aren't saying when they give out the red book to new mums with everything to do with babies, they're not saying in big letters, don't give your kid a screen before they're three years old. It has to be a massive public health emergency warning. No one's telling anyone. So we still think it's a huge treat.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd love, well, I'd love to come to the what to do about it because the contention between government involvement in people's lives and infringing on freedom, but then also trying to help parents teach their children, that's, that's where it's going to be interesting to work out, I think. But let's get to the edtech side of things. What does ed tech mean exactly? Just in super basic, simple terms.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

So educational technology is a new massive business. It's like big tech. I like to call it big tech in a school uniform, as my fellow campaigner Emily Cherkin coined the phrase. And it's basically taking everything we used to do in classrooms, like reading and writing and thinking and books and plonking everything on screen in quite exciting, quite shallow, gamified form. There are loads of edtech platforms. Barely any of them have been proven to be superior to what you and I used to do in a classroom. And many of them have been proven to be quite damaging, as Sweden has very cleverly worked out. They did a load of research on it, the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, and found that most digital tools impair rather than enhance learning. And Sweden, who'd gone hell for leather on digital learning, went, oh dear, this is not working. And they took tech out of the classroom and they gave kids back books, pen and paper. And it's been a massive success.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Wow.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

We don't seem to be very brave in this country anymore. And we can see that rates are falling. IQ rates are falling. You know, PISA scores are falling. Math, science and reading scores are falling.

[Winston Marshall]

What's pisa?

[Darina]

Sorry?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Pisa's like a sort of global educational standard. We're all, we're sort of going down.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

And you have to see a child working on one of these things to understand that it's a terrible way to learn because children are on, I hate the phrase Internet enabled devices. So irritating screens that can reach the Internet so they're immediately liable to be distracted. And it's been proven that every 38 they sort of stay on task for about half the time that they're meant to be concentrating on their work because there's all sorts of fun stuff on Internet enabled devices. You can go on YouTube, you can message your friends, you can buy some stuff on Amazon, you can do anything. These are not the vessels in which to concentrate education. It's not clever. So they're immediately on things that they associate with leisure and chilling out in their rooms and whiling away the hours they're suddenly told actually no, this is an educational instrument and you must concentrate and you must learn all about the Norman invasion from this fun history app. And there's something about learning on a screen and reading on a screen that is you skim read. When you read on the screen, it's been proven you do not read as deeply as you do from a page. And this is clinical stuff. This isn't me making it up. And when you sort of make a PowerPoint or you cut and paste some stuff and Google into a sort of some kind of chart, you're not learning it properly. You're getting a means to an end, you're getting your homework done. If you have to read a chapter of a really well researched textbook and then you have to write your responses to some questions, you remember it. It's not rocket science. You remember it cause you've read it, you've been calm, you've been undistracted, you to. In order to write well, you have to think well. It's what Orwell said. You have to organize your thoughts, which settles the information into your brain. EdTech is really shallow and it's. And it's quick and it's designed, it's a means to an end. And kids can often use ChatGPT to. That's a different question. That's AI and education, which is completely different. But these edtech platforms are. It's a massive business. It's a massive multi billion dollar business. Often on the boards of these edtech companies, there's a single person in education. They're just businessmen seeing a great opportunity. Parents, it's beginning to swing the other way. But for about 10 years, parents have thought that the sign of screens in class means a futuristic excellent school where their kids will probably be the head of Silicon valley when they're 25. And actually the heads of Silicon Valley send their children to school where screens are just for it. They're just for technology. That's it. And that's what I've been trying to say. I'm not anti technology, I'm pro technology, teach technology education. That's really interesting. Ed tech is the opposite of education. It's flimsy, shallow, rubbish. And I think it's more pernicious than smartphones because it pretends to be a good thing. Not all of it. Some of the mass things are okay, whatever, but most of it is unproven garbage.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, so how did we, we the ed tech, infiltrate the education system? Because I remember leaving school back in 2006 and there was still a bit. It was coming in a little bit. There were some sort of a couple of tech screens in some of the classrooms, but not all of them. There were still chalkboards in some classrooms. Was it a natural transition where people didn't think about it, they sort of just assumed, oh, this is going to help the kids, or was there like an actual evidence? You're saying there sort of wasn't ever evidence. So how is it that it took over? And to what extent has it taken over? To what extent does schools in Britain and the west using.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

It's beginning to be an unfightable tsunami in that all British exam boards want to go online by as early as 2030, which will force the hand of the whole profession at once and send everything in an awful backwards ripple to the minute you start secondary school, you'll just be online because you're gonna do your exams online. So put the. I think it's a business and I think teachers have to be very, very wary of it. There's a phrase that teachers are being relegated from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side. So where children's faces would usually be looking at their teacher and their teacher would explain something by writing it out on a board. And I don't know about you, but my lessons, that was very effective. And now there's usually a big old interactive smart board with everything you have to know for the lesson. On the entire lesson. Children have individual devices which they're told to go to this link and go to this platform and complete that and then AI will usually mark the work. It's quite dystopian. And the teachers are beginning. Great teachers are leaving the profession. Really good, charismatic teachers who went into it to light the candle in children and start a love of a particular subject. I Get so many emails from teachers saying, I saw your speech, I can't handle the classroom anymore, I'm too sad, I'm going. And a lot of younger teachers who've been trained in this stuff don't see a problem with it, but they don't see that they've got to fight against their own extinction. It's a sort of dehumanizing of education in the name of a few people making a lot of money. And we're spending, our government are spending so much money on this digital crap. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. On a nice podcast on this digital stuff, thinking it's very futuristic. They're back 10 years ago where parents were thinking, oh, exciting, Johnny's been given an iPad. It's not the future, it's really regressive. It's not a good way to learn. Teach them about AI, teach them robotics, teach them sound and music engineering, teach them all the good stuff that comes from technology. But otherwise teach them how to think by reading long form material and handwriting responses. Otherwise you're using AI as a sort of PA who does everything for you. And if you don't do that boring cognitive heavy work, you'll never get back those skills and you won't be able to think. I think it's as simple as that.

[Winston Marshall]

To what extent are kids using laptops? Is it now widespread laptop use from what, 13? Or from younger?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

No, it's happening in primary schools. I'm part of a signal group of tons of parents and teachers worried about ed tech and AI in education. And lots of parents are being told to get their children devices for reception age children. And there's a data issue as well. I mean, I think there's a company called Internet Safety Labs who proved that a massive percentage of children's data is just being sold by these ed tech companies without the parents consent or knowledge, without the children's knowledge being sold to third party, sort of, you know, I guess, advertisers. I don't know who it is or just there's an angle of it which is a huge surveillance project. You know, you type in the children have to give their birth date, their gender, their name to be sort of part of this online sparks forum or whatever it is. And then these unknown people have your children's details. Why is that? Okay?

[Winston Marshall]

It's not just the screens, it's the laptops, it's the way of learning. EdTech has really kind of taken over every aspect of children's education. Is this as much in independent schools as it is in state schools.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yes, yes, yes. So not all of them, but most of them have drunk the kool Aid and parents are going, sorry, why am I spending everything I earn for my child to just go on these crappy platforms that I could just get at home and not pay you 13 grand a term every. I think and it's partly from pressure from parents a long time ago saying why isn't there more tech in the curriculum? Getting it really wrong is partly from chairs of governors who I think ultimately want to save money and you know, the very expensive teachers can piss off now that, that children are just learning on these, all these platforms. It is ultimately a money saver.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. Okay, so it's safe. So we've snowballed in this direction for various reasons, not least because it's, it's saving money and it's a humongous business.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

And it's a private business and it's an, it's an unchecked business. I don't know how these people are allowed to not have third party certifications when it's children's education.

[Winston Marshall]

How is it that it became unchecked. How is it that there was no stop a lot of work Even now.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think a lot of the companies did their own sort of rather dodgy tests and said to the schools, look how effective this is. But it wasn't compared. I mean the biggest study done on 3,000 kids by an educational researcher called John Jerim. This is very interesting.

[Winston Marshall]

Did I talk too much?

[Podcast Advertiser]

Can't I just let it go?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Wish I would stop. Thank you so much.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Take a breath. You're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Monday Sidekick.

[Knox]

The AI agent that knows you and your business, thinks ahead and takes action.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Ask it anything seriously. Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Start a free trial today on Monday.com he assessed 3,000 pupils doing maths, reading and science. And half the group did them on, did all their work online and half the kids did it paper based and books. And at the end of the three months the actually it was six months. The paper based group did 20 scaled score points better than the screen based group and that equates to six months of additional learning. So this stuff has been proven not to work. It's not a good way of Learning, just staring at a screen, being on a very distracting device. It's bad neurologically, it's bad physically, it's a bad way to learn. And people are realizing way too late and we've got to. That's something I feel more strongly about than smartphones. Smartphones, they're a total nightmare and they're destroying children's lives. I've had to surrender because my child was too left out and too upset. It's a nightmare. But people are beginning to cotton onto it and parents have autonomy and a choice. You don't have a choice in schools. You don't have a choice. Your kid goes to school, is put on a screen for hours. There's a big radioactive smart board in the corner. They come home, they have to do two hours, hours of homework on this bloody bright screen. Then they want to do the games afterwards, then they want to chat with their friends. Then they want to do something you don't want them to do. For busy working parents, it's a nightmare. It's not fair. Those, those parents who care about screen harms are tearing their hair out.

[Winston Marshall]

So what is the solution on the ed tech side? What's your proposal?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

My proposal is to go back to books. Really good, well researched textbooks which publishers have a duty not to just publish weird woke textbooks that tell very strange stories of our history, but you know, proven factual, historical or scientific, whatever the subject is. There are great books out there which are still relevant or you can update them and just teach tech ed. Teach all the good stuff about technology, but don't let it bleed into every other subject so that these companies just can get very rich and our children can get stupid.

[Winston Marshall]

Teaching tech ed, you mean teach kids how to use a computer?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Teach kids how to utilize AI when they need to. Not for every subject, but you've got to teach kids how to spot, you know, fake material. You've got to teach kids how to see what's credible on the Internet and what's nonsense. You've got to teach kids probably a bit of up to date coding, though I'm not convinced about that either because it's. That's dated literally a week after it started. I don't think there is either. It's gonna do so much better. I agree. A bit of robotics, bit of animation, bit of sound and music. You can teach kids the really positive stuff, but it shouldn't take the place of pen and paper because that's a better way to learn.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, what about at the governmental level is, should this be, should there be Rules from up above or to. How much autonomy do you give to. To each individual school to make their own decisions on this issue? And is there any precedent for government creating rules on how kids are taught and what tech is used for? You know, not just sort of computer tech, but all technology? You know, I don't.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I mean, in an ideal world, it should come from government level. But what's happened so far is that children have got so bad at concentrating and working in a methodical, focused way that standards are being brought down. And that's why all the exams are gonna go online. It's just gonna be much easier and of a much lower standard.

[Winston Marshall]

So when you say it goes online, it means they're on a computer screen.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

They're on a computer screen and they're cutting and pasting and swiping and typing and they're. They're. They're not. They're not. I know, it's very frightening. And for younger kids, it's very pernicious because a lot of it's gamified, which means if a child. Sorry, to go back to younger children. If a child gets sort of three plus one, right. A cake explodes into balloo and there's lots of streamers going down the screen and the brain thinks, yippee. Rather than just getting it right should be the reward. You shouldn't need all that external praise for getting something very basic. Right. And it's such a bad habit to get into because then anything a bit harder where you don't get applauded for something feels revolting. You don't wanna do that. You don't wanna read two chapters of Oliver Twist. It's boring. You don't get clapped and you don't get, you know, a sort of, you know, pig dancing. Cause you've done. You've read three sentences. It's. It'. It's that sort of dopamine cycle that we've got to completely eradicate.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah. So they've loaded the whole system with dopamine.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Basically every level. So there's. And the delay gratification is just out the window.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

The window.

[Winston Marshall]

Wow. All the way to the toddler level.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Okay.

[Winston Marshall]

So at the government, governmental level, you wouldn't go anything as drastic as saying, okay, we've got to cut out all these tech screens or all of these.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, it will never happen because they're all so excited about it. And I don't understand why they don't really look at it and see that AI isn't. It's artificial intelligence that's what it's called.

[Winston Marshall]

So, okay, I get the point that you're making that let's say those at the Department of Education, those people in that role don't necessarily understand the problem. But just hypothetically, you were in charge.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

What would you do?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I'd go back to books for everything. But it. I'd go back if children with special needs need screen. Yeah, I would.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay. Yeah.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

You can become completely digital, digitally literate for the digital future in two hours a week. It doesn't need to be eight hours a day. So yeah. And there's a special needs argument where some parents say that typing helps their dyslexic child. Fine. Of course there can be, you know, you can change the rules for children who need it. But then there are some teachers who tell me actually dyslexic children do much better by handwriting a lot more. So that's a contentious issue which I don't know enough about. But you know, whatever suits not too tailored. That's another myth about edtech, the sort of child tailored learning. So the kid can sort of personalise what they're learning. They shouldn't personalize what they're learning. They should have a huge amount to learn each term that they have to learn. They don't know what they don't know. They can't personalise their own learning. And it's also bad that it's adaptive. These platforms, it's a big selling point that they're adaptive to each kid's needs. Well, that's just playing to the. Why should a child who's struggling stay where they're struggling? Why shouldn't they be brought up by a teacher? And again, it's all to do with economics. There's a lot of money being spent on this stuff where I think it should be spent on teachers and teaching assistants. There are huge classes that could benefit from two more teaching assistants. Where do you direct your resources? I think to human beings, not to machines.

[Winston Marshall]

On the money side, presumably at a certain point it gets much cheaper for tech, for the tech side of things. So it might have been quite expensive but I imagine now it's much cheaper. So you say a huge amount of money's been spent on it, but isn't it? Presumably the decision has been made because it's cheaper than hiring people.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yes, I'm sure it is. And I think a lot of schools got deals from sort of Microsoft and Google to they got all these devices at a very cheap. Because then the kids would sort of become customers for life. And I Think a lot of schools can't argue but can't answer parents like me when I say, how is this thing better than a paper and pen? Just answer me, then I'll leave you alone. They can't answer because they've signed very long contracts and they get some kind of value for money, I guess, in that, you know, these things can often be self marked so the teacher doesn't have to work overtime. And, you know, it's all beginning to be quite dystopian in that kids can use large language models to write their essays and teachers can use AI to mark them. And I think if you don't have that human connection, education loses all meaning. I don't know about you, but my English teacher's handwriting at the end of my essay was crucial to me being excited about the subject and feeling embarrassed if I hadn't done enough work and thrilled if I got a good mark. And it was all to do with the humans in the classroom.

[Winston Marshall]

How on earth is a teacher supposed to know that the kid hasn't used LLM or AI to do their homework or write whatever they're thinking? I mean, presumably the teacher would expect them to do a spell check. So if you're writing a piece of homework where you're writing an essay, a history essay or whatever, you would do a spell check. So, but if you're going to go from spell check, why not jump to be like, finish this essay for me?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Of course.

[Winston Marshall]

How exactly is a teacher supposed to even know whether the kid has done the work or not?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, what's sad is that's now their job, really. They're sort of a centurion and a detective and they're playing Inspector Clouseau of. Hang on a sec. I've seen that in Tom's essay as well. And they've got that from. That's not what teachers want to do. They want to see real enthusiasm and comprehension of a subject. That's why so many of them are so disaffected and unhappy at how this stuff has taken over education.

[Winston Marshall]

And also, a smart kid would want to be happy. A smart kid is gonna be like, how do I get this done as quickly as possible? As quickly as possible. And play Fortnite. Yeah, so they're gonna.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Of course they are. I would have. And it's a. And it's a. It's a skill in its own way, being able to dupe your teacher, you know, plonking the essay in getting this large language model to do it, and then tweaking it Enough that it's got enough of your eccentricities that they'll kind of buy it. But that's not proper learning. And it's sad for teachers to have to be like, oh, God, he's fallen as well. It's depressing and it's. And it' children a massive disservice. Because if you set the bar there, most kids reach it. And if you just go, whatever. Do whatever you want. Swindle us, of course they will. Children want to have fun. They don't want to work hard. No child wants to work hard.

[Winston Marshall]

Having seen a generation of kids educated this way, presumably we're seeing scores going down.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah, we're seeing scores, sort of IQ scores are going down, and these PISA test levels are going down. And I think, I don't know about you, but people I know who are employing young people say they can't. There's no resilience there. Cause they haven't had to try hard at school. And there's no ability to really think hard about a problem. They can't do it because they don't have those building blocks. They've never had to develop them. And as I said earlier, you can't then develop them when you're 22. It's too late. Your brain's mush by that point. And I don't think that's an exaggeration. And there's a resilience thing in that. If you get artificial intelligence to do most of your work, it's just easy. And you can just have your teenage years in a sort of virtual deck chair. And then you get to a company and there's an issue and you need to solve it. You don't have that fiber. You don't have that sort of solid material in you that goes, okay, I can do this. You just think, ugh, and you collapse.

[Winston Marshall]

Presumably the people behind EdTech would have thought of this problem. They must be, if they hadn't thought of it in advance. They must be recognizing it now and must realize that the tech we're using to educate children is actually having a negative impact. You've already stated some of the examples where it's been proven that that's the case. What's their response to that?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, I think it's a bit like big tech in that it's a model which makes money from kids being on their products. And I don't think they care. It's money. I don't think they care. It's not working. I think governments have gone, yeah, let's go down this route. And so have schools. They're not being brave enough to say, like Sweden are, this isn't working. So they'll just bring the levels down all the time of GCSEs and A levels, till they don't really mean anything.

[Winston Marshall]

Is AI involved in this story, beyond what we've already described? Described in what way? So we've talked about how kids and teachers are using AI, but is there, is there anything else that AI is changing the landscape of this, of ed tech? And is it as. Is it as we've already described or is.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think I've said it, I think AI is a really willing little secretary who does all the boring, hard work for you. And if you don't do the boring, hard work, you don't get clever.

[Winston Marshall]

So I visited Catherine Burbosing's school, the Michaela school in Wembley, and there were no screens. When a teacher asks a question question, every single student puts their hand up. It's actually a little bit like a Black Mirror episode, because when you see kids so engaged like that, you think, what? Like. It's actually a bit spooky, but they absolutely love it. I spoke to some of the kids, in fact, they. They were showing me around the school. They. They spoke glowingly about it. They were excited to get back into class. They loved their lessons, they had a sense of their future. They had lots of badges of all the things that they'd. I guess, guess rather than having computer meme, dopamine hits, they had badges of all the accomplishments they'd had and various clubs and groups they were part of. And it oddly seemed almost like a Black Mirror version of a 1960s school that we're kind of going back to something more old school. And perhaps hers is the model I know that you've visited and that you're friends with Catherine. Is that the model you think? Is that the shining light for education in Britain?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Well, I mean, going to her school, you're filled with joy and so are the children. And she's got this title as Britain's strictest headmistress. And I'm sure you'll agree when you go to the school, it's so full of love and happiness and the kids are so excited and they're so polite when you sit with them at lunch. The lessons are so. They're just thrilling. The teachers love the children. Children love the teachers. They want to learn. They do utterly brilliantly. So what's not to like? I've never understood why she hasn't been more emul. I don't understand it. I think it would work for private school, state school. I mean, I don't know if the sort of really disciplinarian thing is. I think it's quite good. I'd have liked that. I'd love my children to have it. I think it works. I mean, she's of the belief that the tighter the structure around the child, the greener and stronger the leaves that shoot out from all the little holes. And you can see that in the school. Yeah, I think it's true. I think going, hey, do whatever you want and express yourself. I don't think that creates very happy, disciplined children.

[Winston Marshall]

It's amazing how well kids respond to discipline people. We've maybe spent the last couple of generations being allergic to discipline, but not realizing that that is exactly how kids fly.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

No, I wish I'd realized it with mine.

[Winston Marshall]

Is there anything on the ed tech issue that we haven't covered here? Because this is a new topic for me. Is there anything that I've missed, you think?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I don't think we should relegate the human being so much, I think. I don't know what you remember about your education. Mine was very patchy, but the joyful parts were all down to people. They were all down to wonderful teachers. And the moments in lessons I remember were teachers getting very excited about a particular topic or a particular passage in a book. I don't remember anything else. I remember the people. And I don't think children who just look back on their education as a series of links and of some PowerPoints will be remotely inspired. And I think it's lonely and dispiriting to gaze at a screen all day rather than a human face.

[Winston Marshall]

Let's come back to the social media problem, the greater problem of screens. Cause we you brilliantly laid out how many ways in which this is ruining our kids at home as well as their brains are being ruined at school. It seems, um, it's hard to understand exactly what the right solutions are. You already suggested that when it comes to the childcare problem, you yourself don't know what the solution is. And you've kind of gone along with the same issue. You've given your kids screens when I actually didn't.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

The school did.

[Winston Marshall]

The school did.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

The primary school gave them iPads without telling any of the parents. That was nice. And most people were very happy, apart from me. And I said, huh, What? And because both of them knew how against screens I was, they immediately loved them and they were their best friends and no, the school gave them iPads and set all their homework on it. I didn't give them, I didn't give them iPads, School did.

[Winston Marshall]

So even, even those of us who actually care about it are screwed, are screwed. When it comes to the issue of socialized the kids social life being on WhatsApp as you described, what exactly, exactly is the alternative there? It seems that that's when I speak to parents, that's always the reason why they're like ah, we've kind of got to let them a little bit otherwise they miss out on that social life. And the social life is important. So they need a social life to some extent. It's a collective action problem, isn't it?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

It is.

[Winston Marshall]

It's that unless everyone says enough of this, we can't actually get off of.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Socializing is important, but it can happen on a one to one level. It doesn't need to be in a big group where all the problems start. If There's a huge WhatsApp group of 30 kids that's never going to stay healthy for more than three or four days, something horrible will happen to one of them. Humiliation or you know, some kind of drama. If we go back to devices which just call one of your friends or text one of your friends, that's a healthy way to socialize. You don't need to be in 247 contact with your entire year. That's a fallacy. Constantly needing to be connected. Why, why do we constant. Why can't we just see our friends in school? If we desperately want to call one of them, we can. Kids can't even call anymore. They find it too scary. I mean, you know, companies are having to teach these 20 or 1 year olds how to answer the phone because they sort of jump a mile in the air when a phone rings. Yes, so. So yeah, I think children under 16 don't need machines which connect them to the entire world all the time. They can have a phone which calls someone or texts someone, has some maps on it, has some music on it and has a bank card on it. I don't see why they need more.

[Winston Marshall]

Okay, so this is the Jonathan Haidt solution I think is that a special type of smartphone designed and even having some sort of indication on, on its cover that it and not only on the hardware aspect of it, but within the software of it that this is a miner's phone. And so there are limitations within it and so like there'll be various platforms it wouldn't be able to have access to.

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Why choose a sleep number? Smart bed.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Can I make my site softer?

[Winston Marshall]

Can I make my site firmer?

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Can we sleep cooler Sleep number does that cools up to 8 times faster faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your sleep number setting Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. It's our Black Friday sale recharge this season with a bundle of cozy soothing comfort. Now only 17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

[Podcast Advertiser]

If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Winston Marshall]

But they would. You'd allow it to use some. Is this the solution to the problem? Is this the best way forward?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think it's a good solution. It just has to be, that has to be, you know, made law because while some children have very cool Apple smartphones, there's no way 13 year olds are gonna say okay, I'll have this child safe phone. I tried it with my own. She laughed for about three days. I mean I bought the damn thing.

[Winston Marshall]

And she oh, so they exist?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Oh yeah, yeah, they're, you know, they're all these companies are trying their best but until it's made, you know, ubiquitous and you cannot give an under 16 year old a smartphone, it won't work.

[Winston Marshall]

Well, okay, what about the online safety bill then? So this bill as well as introducing a disinformation unit or reintroducing. We already had one, but they've got a new one. And as well as outlawing lying, there's one aspect of it and all this harmful hateful content comes about. This is an attempt inspired by the suicide of a young girl called Molly Russell. I think back in 2014, some years ago and it pushed through under Nadine Doris, under Boris Johnson's government and now coming into full effect under Keir Starmer's government. This is an attempt to police and protect children. Even at a recent press conference with Donald Trump Trump, Keir Starmer said we've got to something about protect children from pedophilia or, or that's kind of the, the angle on it, but classic. It's kind of got overreach. What's your take on the Online Safety Act? Do you think it's pointless? Given, as we've mentioned, that VPNs were immediately sold. Is there, is there a version of government legislation that is worth attempting?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Look, I think it started out as a laudable project. I did. But then I think it became clear that it's impossible to regulate the Internet. It's like sort of getting a sort of buffalo to make a daisy chain. It's completely impossible to sort of. It will be out of date every single day. It's too huge a target. It's far too expensive and time consuming. And I think it did start out with very noble aims and a lot of people have done very, very good work. And apparently, you know, it's much harder for minors to access porn. I've heard it's. That's been really successful. So good on them.

[Winston Marshall]

Oh really?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah. I just think it takes away all this work and time. If kids don't have access to, to smartphones or any social media, it seems.

[Winston Marshall]

Reasonable to me to say that children shouldn't have smartphones. That should go back to flip phones and break phones like I had when I was a boy. And you have it so that when you're out or you're in trouble, you've got a phone you can. It's basically an emergency use. But we've already outlined all the problems. It just seems like it's a collective action issue and that until there's some sort of mass movement against it, it's never gonna change. And I'm not really sure how that works.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I agree, but I don't think we can rely on certain groups of parents to do it. Cause I think it has to reach children whose parents don't have the time to be active and don't have the time to start WhatsApp groups. And don't, you know, plenty of children are getting destroyed by this stuff whose parents are working three jobs and they, you know, they're the ones who are most at risk. Not always. Because there are loads of middle class kids who are getting utterly destroyed by social media. But the children who are forced to falling asleep in school and not learning anything are the ones who are up all night watching nonsense. Either dangerous stuff or totally futile stuff. It's just lovely junk food that the brain can't get enough of. So I just think there needs to be really muscular law about this. I don't think children should have smartphones or social media. I would make it under 18, but for the sort of, you know, more moderate people under 16 would be an amazing start. And when you ask, you know, people who are fighting for children's digital rights, you say, surely a child's main right is to be safe. I don't understand what you mean about digital rights. Why do they have a right to destroy their brain? Why do they have a right to not get a single gcse? Why do they have a right to get fat and lonely and miserable in their room? What are you talking about? And they can't actually argue their case of why a smartphone is a good idea for. For a young child.

[Winston Marshall]

They can't answer, wouldn't a kid get around? I mean, let's say you were to outlaw smartphones for kids, would they? They would presumably try and find a way around that. They would find smartphones, but I'm not sure, I guess what. It would be illegal to sell them smartphones, so you wouldn't be able to directly and it would be. So then the only way they could get the smartphone is if an adult bought it for them.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Look, people would find their way around it and it'd be really annoying. But it would become the norm for kids not to have smartphones rather than them to have them. It's the norm for all 12 year olds to have phones now. It's just what happens. So it would be very good if that was flipped on its head and it was 3% who did have them rather than 3% who didn't have them. That would be amazing.

[Winston Marshall]

Cool. This might. I might come across very naive and as I'm not a father, maybe I don't have this insight, but is there any reasoning to have with kids? Can you explain to kids you're actually in a point of development where your brain is still growing, this has huge damage and is going to affect the rest of your life. Do you think kids would be receptive to that or is it a bit like telling them, no, don't drink, don't do drugs. And they'll be like, why? I'm going to do them anyway.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Is it the same sort of category? I'm afraid so.

[Winston Marshall]

They're not ready to be reasoned with.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Maybe 0.1% would say, oh, my goodness, I've got to protect my brain. But most kids will be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let me watch that funny video again. I don't think that will work.

[Winston Marshall]

Wow, it's pretty bleak. Australia have just introduced some sort of abolition of smartphones or social media. Can you explain to me what's happened there?

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

I think they've, they're trying to make social media illegal for under 16s and I think they've included YouTube, haven't they? I think they have and I think that's really brave. I don't know what the ramifications are for grownups. Free speech, I don't know yet. I think the sort of stopping children having access to all this gunk is brilliant. I just don't know if some sort of conservative Australians are saying, hang on a sec, why aren't we allowed? I don't know if it's having ramifications for adults. Freedom, I don't know. But I really like the general idea of it. It's brilliant. Good on them.

[Winston Marshall]

It's interesting you bring up YouTube and I know this because of the way we run this show and our social media platforms. But almost all of the engagement is with reels and so YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, I think Facebook as well now and Twitter have this reels function. So it's basically vertical videos and it's the TikTok model of things. And everyone just puts their efforts into there because that's that, that's where the maximum dopamine is, the maximum engagement is. And you, even if you. Someone like Mr. Beast who's a famous YouTuber and you can see some of the studies on how he builds his videos, but at any time there's something like 10 to 15 different bits of stimulus and each video is all designed for maximum engagement and excitement, focus. And so it makes sense to me why you might not think so with YouTube given that it's videos like this, it's long form videos, but actually the reels aspect is what's really contagious and affecting.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

And if you talk to teenagers who've had TikTok since they were 11, they all wish they hadn't been given it. You know, all my, all my friends, children and I'm such a boring weirdo. I go up to all of them when we're sort of, you know, having sort of, I don't know, weekends with friends and I say, how would you feel if none of your friends had been given smartphones and none of you had social media? I have never met one who said I'd miss it and I'd be. So they'd be like, yeah, that would be brilliant. I'd be able to think all of them are very funny about it and very clever about it and think that grown ups should do their job and be grownups. There was a really good times interview about 18 months ago where they interviewed about 20 teenagers from all different parts of Britain. And they said the same thing. If you could have grown up without this stuff, would you have chosen to? And all of them said yes. There wasn't a single, you know, flag waiver for social media. Not one.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

And Freya Indy is a wonderful voice on this saying, I'm nostalgic for something I never had. I'm nostalgic for being at a concert and actually looking at the people rather than filming them. I'm nostalgic for being in a sort of smoky room with my friends and someone's telling a really funny story. I'm nostalgic for stuff that you guys had and I'll never ever have it. I'll never have that kind of connection.

[Winston Marshall]

Yes, but they're addicts because they could actually. These kids might say this now, even they might recognize it now, but they're not getting off their phones. I'm a little bit guilty of it myself. So am I. We haven't talked about how this has affected adults, but I'm sure it's massively affecting adults in the same way. And we can see it in political polarization, how it's affecting adults.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

You can see it in all kinds of human behavior. I don't think people can wait for anything anymore because they're so used to getting things immediately on their phone. I was in sort of snappy snaps the other day getting some boring passport photo and the amount of abuse the staff got. Cause people could not wait for their photos to be developed. I asked an older guy who'd obviously been there about 30 years, and I said, is this a new thing? And he said, it's about last 10 years. Just no one can wait for anything. It's a sort of anthropological thing we're going through. We can't wait. We don't notice what's going on in true life. There was a woman sobbing outside the tube station the other day in London, just on her knees. And I said, what's happened? And her husband had had a stroke and she didn't know how to get to the hospital. She was from somewhere else, didn't speak very good English. I said, how long have you been here? She'd been there for about two and a half hours and no one had thought to look at her or, you know, adults are scared of, you know, real life interaction. They don't know how to do it. They're in their little phone bubble they're not noticing what's going on. There are loads more accidents because people just walking into the street on their phones. I, you know, you know, if you get into a cab, people say, you're the first person that's talked to me in three weeks. I mean, something weird's going on. We're malfunctioning. And I think at the base of it, it's because the weird little spotty computer nerd in the classroom who we all thought was grim, is now determining how normal people behave. And he's going, ha, you idiots who you liked going out and being with each other and having fun and talking to each other, you're not doing that anymore. Cause I'm working out how we all interact with our big glasses in our rooms by ourselves. That's what I always wanted when I was 13 and none of you were talking to me. And so all of us who are normal are completely going mad. It's not making people happy.

[Winston Marshall]

Presumably you're implying that that's the tech bro.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah.

[Winston Marshall]

Who's even in the best case scenario that they're not actually maliciously conniving as to some great plan. They, these tech bros are essentially like autistic dorks. And they don't, they haven't thought about, they're not, they haven't thought about so many of these issues. And you can see it in like Mark Zuckerberg evolution now. He's kind of, I think he's hired someone to trending him up cool. And he wears like a black T shirt and a necklace or something like that. But you can see that he was kind of devoid of any sort of soul before that. You seem in his early videos, that's. It might sound harsh, but it's not surprise to me that the tech coming out of Silicon Valley and this world is all of these bizarre ideas like effective altruism and kind of wanting to live forever. The, the, They've kind of created all these other weird side religions, kind of pseudo religions to fill the void of, of.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Because yeah, also they're geniuses and they've created products which are completely unput downable. And that's why we have a duty to children, children to protect them from them. Because when your brain's going mad and it's very, very loose and addictive, you know, at that biological age, you're gonna cling onto it like an octopus clings onto a rock. And we have to not even show them the rock. It's dangerously brilliant, this stuff. And it's okay. Once you're solid emotionally and neurologically, it's not okay. Before then.

[Winston Marshall]

Yeah, I have to bring up the case of TikTok. So in the state, there's been various discussions, ongoing discussions about should it be made illegal. Trump initially said he wanted to ban it. And then it's like, no, actually if you sell it. And that discussion is still ongoing. But when it was first brought to light that TikTok would be banned in the states, and by the way, it's a Chinese company, it's forbidden in China. The Indians have forbidden it. It's only really used in Europe and in America. And when they first made the first became a conversation about outlawing it. Tik Tok sent geo geolocated messages to various children across the states telling them to write to their local legislator. Legislator. And complain about the app being outlawed. So what happened was a bunch of, I guess I don't know if it'd be congressmen or senators were getting messages from kids who were saying, we're going to kill ourselves if you outlaw TikTok. And so if you want an idea of how adversarial nations can use this social media to manipulate our children, the power they have. And you, you've suggested it a couple of times in this conversations about how they're collecting data, but they have literally already done it. They have already targeted our children and, and to the point where for political aims, they are persuading kids to threaten suicide. I mean, it, it's this, this kind of, this is warfare on a level that we've never envisioned or imagined in this life.

[Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's also forget the political weaponizing of children, which is repulsive enough. Watching videos that are that short for over sort of 10 minutes makes you totally incapable of focusing on anything longer. It's why no children can watch films anymore. And it's why no children are interested in things they used to like. Like going for a walk. Try, try and talk to a sort of average 12 year old about going for a walk on the weekend. They laugh at you. And then, I mean, nice things are horrible now. They're too boring. They're not exciting and they're not stimulating enough. Their little brains are like jukeboxes in a sort of casino. And if they're not lit up all the time, the child's not interested. That's a dangerous place to be.

[Winston Marshall]

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Let's go over to Substack now. Thank you for listening to the Winston Marshall show with Sophie Winkleman. Head over to WinstonMarshall.co.uk now for an extended conversation between me and Sophie where we explore what's going on in Hollywood and how political virtue signaling seems to have taken over the entertainment industry. That's [e-mail] thank you for your continued support. Remember to press, subscribe and follow wherever you get your podcasts from. And until next time, be well.

[Podcast Advertiser]

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at Rubrikrik. That's R U-B-R-I-K.com hi, this is Knox.

[Knox]

From the Popcast with Knox and Jamie and maybe like us at the podcast. You also know people who have been smokers or vapers and Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zyn Nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke free hands free nicotine satisfaction and you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Grainger Advertiser]

If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to Floor Lore scrubbers. Plus you can rely on Granger for easy reordering so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.