The Winston Marshall Show

Episode: Sophie Winkleman – The Digital Experiment on Our Kids and It’s Not Going To End Well...

Date: November 11, 2025

Host: Winston Marshall
Guest: Sophie Winkleman (Lady Frederick Windsor)

Episode Overview

In this probing conversation, Winston Marshall sits down with actress and campaigner Sophie Winkleman to dissect the all-encompassing impact of smartphones, social media, and educational technology (edtech) on today’s children. Winkleman, known both for her acting work and for her advocacy following a viral speech on the dangers of screens, discusses how technology is rewiring children’s brains, social skills, learning capabilities, and even basic health. The episode is a wide-ranging critique of the “digital experiment” being conducted on children, its downstream effects on society, and the urgent need for policy and parental intervention.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Sophie Winkleman Became Active on the Issue

• (04:10) Winkleman attributes her activism to both personal experiences and extensive charity school visits, where she observed very young children normalized to screen use.
  • “Three year olds being given iPads for their birthday and people thinking that they were giving these children a hugely fun, exciting toy...then it’s very quickly too late to reverse what happens when you give a child a screen.” – Sophie Winkleman

2. The Scope of the Problem: Not Just 'Harmful' Content

• (05:23) It’s not only overtly harmful material causing damage—endless, "harmless" short videos decrease focus and train children’s brains for constant, quick dopamine hits instead of deep attention or creativity.
  • “Constant videos of sort of animals falling downstairs...seems completely sort of no problem at all. But it’s getting the children used to something very, very quick and pointless...It’s a concentration span problem...” – SW

3. Physical & Neurological Harms of Screens

• (06:47–08:14)
  • Sleep Disruption: Blue light affects circadian rhythms and postpones sleep by 1–2 hours.
  • Obesity: Tied to sedentary screen habits, not just processed foods.
  • Hormonal & Possible Thermal Issues: Device heat and hormone interference noted as under-examined risks.

4. Gendered Impacts of Technology

On Girls

• (08:35–14:12)
  • Self-esteem & Mimetic Behavior: Instagram, fitness apps, and influencer culture drive harmful comparisons, eating disorders, and self-harm.
  • Perpetual Peer Pressure: School social dynamics now follow children home 24/7 through group chats and social media.
  • Cosmetic Surgery Rates Up: Desire to "worship" or become like influencers.
  • Role of Groups: Even WhatsApp becomes a source of anxiety and exclusion.

On Boys

• (14:22–18:53)

  • Social Withdrawal: Boys replace real interaction with gaming and online “socializing.”
  • Addiction & Incel Phenomenon: Pornography, gaming, and avoidance of real-life challenges.
  • Radicalization & Crime: WhatsApp groups used as vehicles for knife crime and radicalization.

  “The correlation between online groups and knife crime and radicalization is significant...” (18:08, SW)

5. Screens as Childcare & Developmental Setbacks

• (21:32–24:17)

  • Parents resort to screens for peace and convenience. Winkleman herself confesses guilt and sympathy for this reality.
  • Early excessive screen use is linked to speech delays, lack of potty training, and even children swiping at books.

  “All the nursery teachers and speech and language therapists are saying there’s this huge contagion of poor little toddlers who...are emotionally discombobulated. All the sort of things that happen when kids have had too much screen time.” (21:49, SW)

6. Imagination & Creativity Eroded

• (24:05–25:05)

  • Passive consumption replaces boredom, fantasy, and self-directed play—the foundations of creativity.

  “Kids not getting bored is stifling creativity in a tragic way.” (24:17, SW)

7. Prevalence & Public Health Blind Spot

• (25:05–25:54)
  • 97% of British 12-year-olds own smartphones.
  • Public health authorities (like the NHS) fail to warn parents about early screen dangers.

8. EdTech: The Gamification and Dehumanization of Learning

What is EdTech?

• (26:22–27:21)
  • Education platforms that substitute screen-based, gamified activities for traditional classroom learning.

Evidence Against EdTech

• (27:22–30:39)
  • Studies (Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, John Jerim in the UK) show screen-based learning impairs outcomes; Swedish policymakers reversed course, dumping digital for paper textbooks.
  • Screens fragment attention; on internet-enabled devices, children remain “on task” less than half the intended time.
  • Reading and learning are more superficial on screens—children don’t absorb or retain as much.

Economic & Social Dimensions

• (31:23–35:54)

  • EdTech is a multi-billion-dollar business with little accountability or evidence of efficacy.
  • Often justified as progressive, but really a money-saving mechanism that replaces effective teaching with shallow “productivity.”

  “There’s a phrase that teachers are being relegated from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side.” (31:23, SW)

• (36:14–39:40)

  • Schools pressured by contracts, training, and economic incentives; even independent and state schools are now tech-heavy.
  • Parents have been sold the idea that tech equals progress—ironically, Silicon Valley execs send their kids to low-tech schools.

Edtech Encourages Shallow Learning

• (39:05–40:21)
  • “Adaptive” and “personalized” learning platforms reinforce the status quo of struggling children rather than elevating them.

Data Privacy Concerns

• (34:00–34:59)
  • Children’s data is harvested and sold, often without parental knowledge.

AI in Education

• (45:54–46:50)
  • Teachers are now “detectives” trying to discern what is student work vs. AI.
  • Over-reliance on AI robs students of essential skills and effort.

9. The Alternative Models & Solutions

Best Practices from Michaela School

• (50:06–52:16)

  • Winkleman praises Catherine Birbalsingh’s Michaela School: no screens, clear structure, badges for achievement instead of digital dopamine.
  • Human relationships with teachers are central.

  “Going to her school, you’re filled with joy and so are the children. The lessons are so...thrilling. The teachers love the children. Children love the teachers. They want to learn. They do utterly brilliantly.” (51:12, SW)

What Should Replace EdTech?

• (39:05, 42:53)

  • Return to pen, paper, and high-quality textbooks for everything but core digital skills.
  • Teach tech as its own subject—not embedded everywhere.

  “You can become completely digitally literate...in two hours a week. It doesn’t need to be eight hours a day...” (43:01, SW)

What About Government?

• (40:47–42:26)
  • Ideally, top-down regulation could set standards, but current trends push standards down rather than up.
  • Winkleman advocates for robust legislation restricting children’s access to smartphones and social media, suggesting a ban for under-16s (or better, under-18s).

10. Policy Efforts and the Challenge of Regulation

Online Safety Act & Legislative Limits

• (59:36–60:15)
  • The Online Safety Act had “noble aims” but can’t keep up—children can easily circumvent with VPNs.
  • Blocking children’s access to smartphones is a more effective root solution.

International Models

• (64:00–64:37)
  • Cites Australia: banning social media for under-16s—including YouTube (which is now dominated by TikTok-style short “reels”).
  • Sweden: Abandoned edtech in favor of traditional learning materials.

The Collective Action Problem

• (54:14–56:06; 60:29–62:44)

  • Peer pressure and the network effect make it impossible for individual parents to opt out without government action.
  • Tech-safe phones for minors exist but only parental buy-in or legal enforcement can make them mainstream.

  “Until it’s made, you know, ubiquitous and you cannot give an under 16 year old a smartphone, it won’t work.” (58:08, SW)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the root problem:
  • “These Internet enabled screens are causing mass brain damage. It’s not an exaggeration.” (23:12, SW)
• On group chats and the new 24/7 school bullying:
  • “Anywhere where a herd can collect is a very bad idea. I think for children it’s not safe. Not only weirdos joining...but children themselves.” (10:31, SW)
• On parents and “digital rights”:
  • “Surely a child’s main right is to be safe. I don’t understand what you mean about digital rights. Why do they have a right to destroy their brain?” (61:15, SW)
• On teenage regrets:
  • “I’ve never met one who said I’d miss it and I’d be...so they’d be like, yeah, that would be brilliant. I’d be able to think...” (65:38, SW, quoting teens on living without smartphones)
• On the creators of addictive apps:
  • “It’s because the weird little spotty computer nerd in the classroom who we all thought was grim, is now determining how normal people behave...That’s what I always wanted when I was 13, and none of you were talking to me. And so all of us who are normal are completely going mad. It’s not making people happy.” (68:43, SW)
• On adapting screens for all:
  • “You don’t have a choice in schools. Your kid goes to school, is put on a screen for hours. There’s a big radioactive smart board in the corner...” (37:22, SW)

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Time | Topic/Quote/Speaker | |------------|---------------------------------------------| | 04:10 | Sophie describes her personal motivation | | 05:23 | “It’s a huge sprawling wilderness...it's a concentration span problem...” (SW) | | 06:47 | Physical harms: eyesight, hormones, obesity | | 08:35 | Female-specific harms begin | | 14:22 | On boys: “Addicted to video games...terrified of life and get into real trouble...” (SW) | | 18:08 | Online groups, knife crime, radicalization | | 21:32 | Screens as childcare and developmental harm | | 24:05 | Effects on imagination and creativity | | 25:05 | Prevalence statistics, public health complaints | | 26:22 | Definition and critique of EdTech | | 30:39 | Economic & business forces behind EdTech | | 34:00 | Data surveillance and safety concerns | | 37:22 | John Jerim’s study (books vs screens) | | 39:05 | “Go back to books. ...don’t let it bleed into every other subject...” (SW) | | 42:53 | Books not tablets as default; special needs exceptions | | 45:54 | AI use in homework and assessment | | 50:06 | The Michaela School model | | 56:06 | Tech-safe phones for minors as a solution | | 59:36 | The limits of the Online Safety Bill | | 64:00 | Australia's under-16s social media ban | | 65:38 | Teenagers' regrets and nostalgia | | 68:43 | Tech creators “deciding” how we live | | 73:18 | Winkleman’s stark warning on attention spans and joy |

Final Reflection

Sophie Winkleman offers an urgent, sometimes bleak, but deeply informed perspective on the harms of unfettered digital technology in children's lives. Her prescription: rollback smartphones and social media for minors, replace most EdTech with traditional learning, and resist the temptation to "digitize" away childhood. The episode balances critique with practical (if challenging) solutions, and calls for robust, collective action rather than leaving parents to fight a losing battle alone.