"Detox" Your Kitchen

Summary

Playlist: The Wirecutter Show – Episode: "Detox Your Kitchen"

Release Date: April 30, 2025

In the episode titled "Detox Your Kitchen," The Wirecutter Show delves into the pervasive concerns surrounding kitchen products and their potential health implications. Hosted by Christine Cyr Clisette and Rosie Garant, the episode brings expert insights from Wirecutter’s sustainability editor, Katie Okamoto, and senior kitchen editor, Marilyn Ong, to guide listeners through making informed, healthier choices in their culinary spaces.

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1. Understanding Kitchen Detoxification

Christine Cyr Clisette opens the discussion by addressing the widespread anxiety among consumers about the materials used in their kitchens. The primary focus is on reducing exposure to harmful substances such as plastics and nonstick coatings. Christine introduces the concept of a "detoxed kitchen," emphasizing that while kitchens are not hazardous waste zones, they are integral to our daily food preparation and, consequently, our health.

"Your kitchen is not a toxic waste dump... it's a place that you can control a lot of, you know, what goes into your body."
— Christine Cyr Clisette [02:11]

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2. The Exposure Budget Concept

A pivotal part of the conversation revolves around the "exposure budget," a personalized approach to managing and mitigating risks associated with kitchen products. Both Christine and Marilyn Ong highlight that individuals have varying thresholds for risk, influenced by factors such as family needs or physical capabilities.

"If you try to be all or nothing about it, it'll just stress you out. Right. So you have to be kind of measured about what risk you are comfortable with..."
— Marilyn Ong [07:42]

Katie Okamoto further elaborates that this budget reflects a balance between health concerns and practical aspects like price, usability, and sustainability.

"Nobody has the right answer. It's always a highly individual one."
— Katie Okamoto [08:46]

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3. The Impact of Plastics and Nonstick Coatings

The discussion delves into the dangers posed by forever chemicals (PFAS) found in many kitchen products. Katie Okamoto explains that these chemicals, known for their persistence in the environment and the human body, are linked to various health issues, including reproductive impacts, high blood pressure, and increased cancer risks.

"Forever chemicals... make things slick, nonstick, waterproof, oilproof... They build up in the environment and in our bodies over time."
— Katie Okamoto [12:37]

The conversation underscores that while occasional use of nonstick cookware may not pose significant risks, cumulative exposure through regular use warrants consideration of safer alternatives.

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4. Practical Swaps for a Healthier Kitchen

a. Cookware Alternatives

Marilyn Ong recommends transitioning from nonstick pans to more durable and safer options:

• Cast Iron Pans:

  • Pros: Extremely durable, versatile for various cooking methods.
  • Cons: Heavy and requires maintenance through seasoning.
  • "Cast iron pans... can last you a long, long time."
    — Marilyn Ong [17:34]

• Carbon Steel Pans:

  • Pros: Lighter than cast iron, develops a nonstick surface over time.
  • Cons: Still requires some maintenance.

• Tri-Ply Stainless Steel:

  • Pros: Excellent heat conduction, suitable for appliances like stock pots.
  • Cons: May have a learning curve for those accustomed to nonstick surfaces.

• Enameled Cast Iron:

  • Pros: Does not require seasoning, provides a nonstick-like surface once heated properly.
  • Cons: Heavy and may require longer preheating times.

b. Food Storage Solutions

Transitioning from plastic containers to glass food storage containers is advocated to minimize chemical exposure.

"Switching to glass food storage containers... completely plastic-free option."
— Marilyn Ong [30:37]

Top Recommendations:

• Pyrex Freshlock
• Snapware Total Solutions Glass Containers
• Pyrex Ultimate Set: Features glass lids with silicone gaskets for airtight storage.

c. Cutting Boards and Utensils

Replacing plastic cutting boards with wooden alternatives significantly reduces microplastic ingestion.

"Wood cutting boards will last you a long, long time."
— Marilyn Ong [31:29]

For utensils, opting for metal, wood, or silicone alternatives helps eliminate exposure to harmful chemicals found in plastic utensils.

"Every recommendation we have... is either wood, metal, and we do have some silicone recommendations."
— Marilyn Ong [31:38]

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5. Addressing Kitchen Appliances

The episode scrutinizes appliances with nonstick coatings, such as air fryers and rice cookers. Marilyn Ong suggests:

• Toaster Ovens vs. Air Fryers:

  • Toaster ovens like the Panasonic Flash Express are recommended as safer alternatives since they often lack volatile nonstick coatings and operate at lower temperatures.

• Rice Cookers:

  • While nonstick rice cookers are somewhat safer due to lower operating temperatures, alternatives like the Instant Pot, which features a stainless steel interior, are suggested for those seeking to minimize plastic exposure.

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6. The Role of Silicone in the Kitchen

Katie Okamoto discusses the pros and cons of silicone:

"Silicone is... considered safer for health at high temperatures than plastic... but it does shed and we don’t know exactly what that means yet."
— Katie Okamoto [32:53]

While silicone offers an alternative to single-use plastics, its long-term health impacts remain uncertain. The recommendation is to ensure reusability to offset environmental concerns and consider alternative materials when possible.

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7. Listener Takeaways and Future Directions

As the episode concludes, both hosts and guests reflect on personalized approaches to kitchen detoxification. The emphasis is on practicality and balance, encouraging listeners to make gradual changes that align with their individual exposure budgets.

Christine Cyr Clisette highlights the importance of personal prioritization:

"You don't necessarily have to reduce everything. It doesn't have to go to zero. Just focus on where it's most important."
— Christine Cyr Clisette [38:17]

Future Topics: The show teases upcoming episodes that will explore water filtration and air pollution in the kitchen, including considerations for gas stoves vs. induction cooktops.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Christine Cyr Clisette [02:11]:
  "Your kitchen is not a toxic waste dump... it's a place that you can control a lot of, you know, what goes into your body."

• Marilyn Ong [07:42]:
  "If you try to be all or nothing about it, it'll just stress you out. Right. So you have to be kind of measured about what risk you are comfortable with..."

• Katie Okamoto [08:46]:
  "Nobody has the right answer. It's always a highly individual one."

• Katie Okamoto [12:37]:
  "Forever chemicals... make things slick, nonstick, waterproof, oilproof... They build up in the environment and in our bodies over time."

• Marilyn Ong [17:34]:
  "Cast iron pans... can last you a long, long time."

• Marilyn Ong [30:37]:
  "Switching to glass food storage containers... completely plastic-free option."

• Marilyn Ong [31:29]:
  "Wood cutting boards will last you a long, long time."

• Marilyn Ong [31:38]:
  "Every recommendation we have... is either wood, metal, and we do have some silicone recommendations."

• Katie Okamoto [32:53]:
  "Silicone is... considered safer for health at high temperatures than plastic... but it does shed and we don’t know exactly what that means yet."

• Christine Cyr Clisette [38:17]:
  "You don't necessarily have to reduce everything. It doesn't have to go to zero. Just focus on where it's most important."

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Conclusion

"Detox Your Kitchen" provides a comprehensive guide for consumers aiming to create a healthier kitchen environment. By addressing the nuanced concept of an exposure budget and offering practical alternatives to common kitchen products, The Wirecutter Show empowers listeners to make informed decisions without feeling overwhelmed. The balanced approach ensures that detoxification is accessible and tailored to individual lifestyles, promoting long-term health and sustainability.

For more detailed recommendations and product links discussed in this episode, visit The Wirecutter's website or check the show notes accompanying the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Rosie Garant]

The Wirecutter show is supported by Nordstrom. Looking for the perfect Mother's Day gift? Nordstrom has everything you need for everyone who inspires you. Mom, grandma, mentor, or even yourself. From cozy must haves and best selling beauty products to meaningful jewelry and stylish outfits, there's something for every mother figure in your life. Best of all, there are plenty of thoughtful gifts under $100. Download the Nordstrom app or visit in store today for all your Mother's Day gifting needs.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That all just sounds too complicated for a cooking spoon.

[Katie Okamoto]

100%. Like, let's not do more math than we need to use wood.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Zier Clisette.

[Rosie Garant]

I'm Rosie Garant and you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This episode is called Detox youx Kitchen. Hey, Rosie.

[Rosie Garant]

Hey. Hey.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's just us today. Kyra is out. We miss her very much. But today we are going to talk about something that often comes up in questions from Wirecutter readers. We get a lot of questions from people who are wondering about the products in their home and the sort of health, health implications of those products. And it kind of runs the gamut. We, we get questions about all types of products, but a lot of times we get questions about the kitchen. People have a lot of concerns about what they have in their kitchen. They're, you know, trying to maybe reduce their exposure to certain types of materials. Maybe it's plastic, maybe it's nonstick coatings. And we thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of dig into that a little bit because we actually have a lot of information on the site and we have some experts who can speak really clearly to this. So, Rosie, I thought it'd be interesting to bring two of our wire cutter colleagues on the show to discuss how to approach detoxing your kitchen. And I'm saying detoxing with huge.

[Rosie Garant]

I can see those air quotes.

[Katie Okamoto]

Yeah.

[Rosie Garant]

Why air quotes?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Because, you know, your kitchen is not a toxic waste dump. And we really want to emphasize that, you know, the risks that you face in your kitchen are it's not like a toxic river or something like that.

[Rosie Garant]

But by the same token, it's the place where you are keeping the things you use for eating, drinking, cooking food.

[Katie Okamoto]

Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's a place that you can control a lot of, you know, what goes into your body. And the truth is there are places in your kitchen where you may want to reduce your exposure to certain types of materials. And so we're going to have Katie Okamoto. She's Our sustainability editor and Marilyn Ong, who is our senior kitchen editor. They are both a wealth of knowledge about this topic and Katie is really going to speak to what people need to know about the science and the sort of health risks of certain materials. And Marilyn is going to be able to speak really clearly to what wire cutter kitchen experts have tested the sort of swaps that you can make. We're going to run through sort of a list of different types of products that you may want to swap out.

[Rosie Garant]

Love it. So after the break, our first kind of roundtable conversation, we're going to talk about where to focus our energy in quote unquote, detoxing your kitchen. We will be back after a quick break. The Wirecutter show is supported by Nordstrom. Looking for the perfect Mother's Day gift? Nordstrom has everything you need for everyone who inspires you, mom, grandma, mentor, or even yourself. From cozy must haves and best selling beauty products to meaningful jewelry and stylish outfits, there's something for every mother figure in your life. Best of all, there are plenty of thoughtful gifts under $100. Download the Nordstrom app or visit in store today for all your Mother's Day gifting needs. I gave my brother a New York Times subscription. She sent me a year long subscription so I have access to all the games. We'll do wordle mini spelling bee. It has given us a personal connection. We exchange articles and so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

The coverage, the options, not just news.

[Katie Okamoto]

Such a divers, diversified disc.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes and we.

[Katie Okamoto]

Even just shared a recipe the other day.

[Marilyn Ong]

The New York Times contributes to our quality time together. You have all of that information at your fingertips.

[Katie Okamoto]

It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons. It was such a cool and thoughtful gift.

[Rosie Garant]

We're reading the same stuff, we're making.

[Marilyn Ong]

The same food, we're on the same page. Connect even more with someone you care about. Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a [e-mail] gift. Get a special rate if you act before May 12th.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back, Katie. Marilyn, welcome. You've both been on the show before. Katie, you edit all of our coverage around environmental issues for the site.

[Katie Okamoto]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And Marilyn, you head our kitchen team and so you know a ton about the kitchen equipment that we recommend and great swaps that people might want to make in their kitchen.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yep.

[Rosie Garant]

Very excited to have you both back. Katie, we did an episode with you last fall about Microplastics. After that episode aired, my friends who are regular listeners of the show reached out to say that they went on a mini spree, trying to reduce their plastic in their kitchen as much as they could manage and replacing it with silicone and glass. So I bring that up because it occurred to me when prepping for this episode that we should be clear at the top here what we mean when we talk about reducing toxins in the kitchen. So can you talk about it a little bit?

[Katie Okamoto]

Sure. And I think that your friend really is demonstrating that, you know, we all have a different relationship to risk. And so when we talk about reducing toxins in the kitchen, we're talking about reducing the risk of exposure to an array of substances, chemicals, particles, in some cases metals that may potentially have health impacts. These are complex issues and areas of ongoing research. And we're still establishing in some cases what those exposures might mean for our health over a long period of time. Many times these exposures are cumulative. But, you know, there's a lot that we can't control. And many of the exposures that we're discussing today really require addressing at the root through like system wide change or regulation. But there are some things that we can control as individuals.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, so let's talk about what we can control. A term I have heard both of you mention is an exposure budget, where you basically choose what to focus on eliminating based on how important it is to you personally. And everyone is going to have a different budget and they're going to spend that budget in a unique way. So for instance, one person might want to really eliminate all the plastic in their kitchen. That's me and another person. Maybe if you have kids, young kids, or maybe if you have a disability, you might really need to use plastic in certain instances. You know, glass might be too heavy, it might break. There's all sorts of reasons why it might not be the right fit for you. And so you will choose to use plastic in certain cases. And that's kind of how you are budgeting out your exposure budget.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of this idea that if you try to be all or nothing about it, it'll just stress you out. Right. So you have to be kind of measured about what risk you are comfortable with and what you're not, and what convenience or time saving factors different products bring into your life that are worth spending a little bit of that exposure budget.

[Katie Okamoto]

I think you make a great point, Marilyn, because I think that's true of how we make recommendations and make choices when we shop in general, we're always weighing the kind of costs and benefits. And yeah, at Wirecutter we're always thinking about the trade offs really between like price, usability, aesthetics, whether it works, durability, repairability, sustainability. And now we're also talking about potentially like these other exposures that can come from using products over time. So yeah, just to say this budget concept is sort of true of all the choices that we make as consumers. Nobody has the right answer. It's always a highly individual one.

[Rosie Garant]

This conversation, like all of our conversations on this show, but I think also at Wirecutter in general is like this has to be rooted in lived experience. And that's not, you know, that's not monolithic. The advice that you're giving and the guidance needs to be applicable, it needs to be real.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah. And the exposure budget idea can kind of help you focus on what you are doing, what you are controlling and feel good about that and not worry about all the things that you can't control.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Exactly. Now Katie, I'm wondering how much do you think eliminating things like plastic or non stick finishes, how much does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?

[Katie Okamoto]

Unfortunately, we can't say for sure how much of a difference it will make. I will say there are some, some things that there is more robust evidence to support at least the exposures even if we don't know 100% how that will manifest in a health impact. Since we're talking about supporting long term health big picture, I do want to back up and say a lot of the experts that I've spoken to when I've been reporting on plastics in particular have said that don't forget that there are evidence based ways to support your health and your family's health and wellness over the long term through certain behaviors, things like getting enough sleep, balancing nutrition, going to get your annual physical. So just want to say that if you walk away with anything after you listen to this episode, I think one hope I have is that it's that you can really simplify your quote unquote kitchen detox by prioritizing things that will last and repairing and maintaining what you have. That's because a lot of the items that might expose you to microplastics might expose you to forever chemicals. These are things that are less durable and less repairable. I think one thing that we're starting to see in plastic research in particular is that we're now able to measure microplastics and nanoplastics. And so people are starting to measure them everywhere they possibly can. And so we're learning a lot more, but it can also feel like a cascade of new information. We're finding plastics here, we're finding plastics there. And I think the takeaway of that is trying to orient around durability in our purchasing and really thinking about it from like that scale, rather than trying to get so hyper specific about like, how can I replace this particular item and then finding another particular item to replace.

[Marilyn Ong]

Right, absolutely agree. And I think that giving yourself time to kind of do this, you don't have to in one month max out your credit card and replace everything in your kitchen. And you'll learn too what you can live without and what you can't.

[Rosie Garant]

Okay, so we know that plastics and forever Chemicals are linked to some health issues, but the science is ongoing for what that means exactly in terms of our exposure. So before you spiral, focus on what you can control. Everyone's budget might look a little different, but you can, you know, make choices about what products you want to use and what you might want to phase out.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Let's get into some of the kitchen swaps that people might want to consider. This is one of those categories that you as a person can control in your own kitchen. Let's start with items that have non stick coatings. Things like nonstick skillets, the inserts to rice cookers and air fryers and some other appliances. These nonstick coatings are made with forever chemicals. Katie, what do we need to know about forever chemicals?

[Katie Okamoto]

So forever chemicals is sort of a nickname for a class of chemicals that has thousands of different kinds of chemicals. They're called PER and polyfluoroalkyl substances. PFOs. PFOs.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Such a mouthful.

[Katie Okamoto]

Yes, they have been in the news quite a lot. They are added to many different things that we use all the time. They make things slick, nonstick, waterproof, oilproof. And they're something that will build up in the environment and in our bodies over time, hence the name Forever Chemicals. We pretty much all have PFOS exposure. It's one of those highly ubiquitous chemicals. And some of those chemicals have been, you know, more widely studied than others, like PFOA and pfos. Pfos. They're actually no longer used in non stick cookware. That's being made new because they were so concerning. They've been replaced by other types of pfas. And some of those go by names like genex and pfbs. Those are used in nonstick cookware. But just to like, back up, the research is ongoing. But the links that science is starting to find are, at certain levels are reproductive impacts, high blood pressure, developmental impacts, increased risk of some cancer, immune system function, and endocrine disruption. That sounds really scary, and it is very concerning. Experts don't think that using a single product once is going to expose you to dangerous levels. This is really an instance of accumulation over time, particularly because these chemicals do build up when it comes to PFAs used on cookware. So, like those nonstick pans, it seems that undamaged and unscratched pans are safe to cook with if they're used correctly, which means that they're used at moderate to low temperatures below 400 degrees Fahrenheit. Above that heat, they can release fumes that are actually toxic enough to kill birds. And so you can start to see that this is a pretty unstable compound at certain temperatures. And people really should consider replacing those pans or getting alternatives that Marilyn will discuss if they start to scratch and flake.

[Rosie Garant]

Katie, we got a reader question. This is someone who asked about nonstick coding. So they said nonstick coding breaks down over time. So doesn't this mean we're ingesting the coding over time? What do you think about that?

[Katie Okamoto]

I think that that's not an illogical conclusion to come to. And I think that is really why, if you're taking a precautionary approach here, it's just cutting out nonstick pans is, is a wise, informed choice. But once again, using them at low temperatures and taking care to use utensils on them that aren't going to scratch the surface can really mitigate that exposure.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So, Marilyn, if someone is looking for alternatives to non stick cookware or other types of appliances that have these finishes, nonstick, super convenient. I mean, it's great. I have it in my rice cooker. I know a lot of people love their skillets. What are some of the best options that your team has tested and give us kind of the pros and cons of.

[Marilyn Ong]

Of those. Yeah. And you know, I will also start by saying, like, if you have a non stick pan, if it's new, if it's still working really well, as Katie said, just use it when you absolutely need to. Right. It doesn't always have to be completely all or nothing. If you really need it for an egg in the morning and that's the only reason you pull it out, that's a good place to start. And I will also say that if your nonstick pan is not acting nonstick anymore, that means it's definitely Time to let it go.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So if your eggs are sticking, if.

[Marilyn Ong]

Your eggs are sticking, if it's not just rolling straight off of it when you're cleaning it, your nonstick coating has worn off and is probably deteriorating. And that's not a good, good look. So time to let that one go. But yeah, we do have other great options. Cast iron pans are one of my favorites. I keep mine on my stove. I use it all the time. They are not expensive. Our top pick is $40, but Lodge makes another one that's $30. 12 inch pan, you can do everything on it. You can roast chicken, you can bake in it. I know it can be intimidating to take care of a seasoning on a pan, but I also promise that once you kind of get started and are okay with imperfection because that's just life. It'll build up over time as you cook and can work out really great.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I love cast iron, but it is really heavy. Beyond the maintenance part of it, it can be quite a lot to take it up and down off.

[Marilyn Ong]

Absolutely, yeah. Like our top pick cast iron pan is six and a half pounds and that's a lot of weight. So another option that we recommend sometimes is carbon steel pans. They're a little bit lighter. Our top pick 10 inch carbon steel pan, which you know is a little bit smaller than 12 inch, but can do a lot, that one is like less than three pounds. So it's still not quite as light as an aluminum nonstick coated pan, but it's much more maneuverable than a cast iron pan.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Does it have the same feature as a, as a cast iron where it becomes kind of seasoned and it becomes more nonstick over time.

[Marilyn Ong]

Our top pick is pre seasoned. So you can get pre seasoned cast iron. You can get pre seasoned carbon steel in both of those cases, I mean, during testing we're taking out of the box and frying an egg right off the bat. And it's working great.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I have a enameled cast iron omelet pan. The advantage to it is that you don't have to season it. And so it is finicky in other ways. It's also heavy. You have to preheat it for quite a while. But it does have a non stick surface once you get it to a certain temperature.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah, there's science going on about things adhering to a pan at certain temperatures and then releasing when certain proteins have coagulated and all of that. So yes, that is all true. And that reminds me, you know, another thing that we should talk about Is a lot of times people buy nonstick cookware sets. And so it's not just like a skillet that you're dealing with. You have a stock pot with nonstick lining. You have saucepans. And in most cases you don't really need a nonstick coating on a stock pot. If you're boiling water for pasta or making a soup, there's so much liquid in there. Like the nonstick coating isn't doing much for you. And in those cases, you absolutely should just swap those out for stainless steel Tri PI cookware, which is layers of stainless steel around a layer of aluminum, which is a really great heat conductor. And we also recommend, like you said, enamel to cast iron. And so when you see like those beautiful Le Creuset Dutch ovens and pots on social media, that's what that is. It's enameled cast iron. And yes, that enamel can also be really great at releasing foods and not be terribly sticky.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Right.

[Marilyn Ong]

Tri ply. Stainless steel, on the other hand, can get a little sticky. I mean, that's why it's great for searing meat and searing proteins. There's a little bit of a learning curve, but it's totally doable. And I have even fried eggs in triply stainless steel and live to tell the tale.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So, yes, you were able to eat them. It was fun.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about some of the appliances that have nonstick coatings, like air fryers, rice cookers, some of these other kind of smaller appliances.

[Marilyn Ong]

So I would start with air fryers. Most pod shaped air fryers, including our picks, by and large, they use nonstick coatings on their baskets and in the surfaces inside the air fryer. And this is why most air fryers don't go above 400. Like if you're cooking in your oven, it's very common to want to roast something at say 425. And people will be confused why air fryers don't go above 400. And this is why. Because of the nonstick coating, as Katie said, above 400 temperatures, it starts to become more volatile. But here's the thing, is the way heating elements and temperature probes work, it's not perfect. It's not like your air fryer gets to 390 and then stops. Exactly. You know, the heating element is still going. The air in there is gonna often heat above 400. And so that means that your nonstick coating in the air fryer is going to be getting heated to these pretty high temperatures right on the borderline of what's recommended. So we've always Maintained that toaster ovens are more versatile, longer lasting than air fryers. And at the end of the day can do a really good job with a lot of things that air fryers do. And if you're looking to limit your PFAS exposure, all of that, I mean, it just becomes all the more true. We have this small toaster oven that we recommend, the Panasonic Flash Express.

[Katie Okamoto]

I love mine.

[Marilyn Ong]

I love mine too. That's sitting on my counter at home. And it just cooks beautifully. It's really even. It can handle frozen tater tots, frozen french fries. It does the job really well. And because it's small and compact, it also heats up really quickly and isn't going to be lacking in a ton of the things that you're looking for from an air fryer.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about rice cookers? My sister actually recently asked me this because she didn't want to have a rice cooker with a non stick coating on the insert. And it seemed really hard to find one that didn't have nonstick.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah, rice cookers is a tough one. We have always maintained that of all the appliances with nonstick coatings, a rice cooker is one where it's actually pretty reasonable.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Ong]

And I say that because rice is sticky, they used to make glue from it in China in my grandmother's day. And so really what a rice cooker is doing is heating your water to boiling temperature. So that's 212 degrees. And then the keep warn setting is probably around, you know, 170ish that range. And so the temperatures are not getting very high. They are well under that 400 point of volatility. And then you've got like a much easier container to wash when your rice is done cooking. And so we've always felt like that's one of the most reasonable uses of nonstick coating in any of the appliances that we recommend. But we also get that for some people, they're really, really trying to get to that, like almost no exposure of PFAS in their home. And so we are planning to focus on that for our next rewrite of the rice cooker guide. We'd like to test and we have tested some options in the past. We've tested clay, we've tested stainless ste and have found that the level of like stickiness and everything, you get to a point where you may not even want to use the machine anymore. And so is that realistic? Is that helpful for someone who wants a rice cooker in their home? But we are going to focus on a few More options. Just to do more due diligence, I will say. In the meantime, I have used my instant pot to cook rice, which just.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Has a stainless interior, right?

[Marilyn Ong]

Yes. The instant pot uses a stainless interior and it gets the job done. It's not gonna be like magical levels of flavor.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, we've done side by side with the zojirushi or something, and it wasn't. The rice wasn't quite as good, but it was.

[Marilyn Ong]

No, but it's. Yeah, it's fine. It works.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think there's one more category that sometimes people overlook, but baking sheets.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yes. There's so many nonstick cookie sheets out there. So for baking sheets, we recommend Nordic ware. They are aluminum pans and they are not nonstick. There is no nonstick coating on them. But they bake and wash beautifully. They're super durable. They will last you forever.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And then if you're concerned about, like, a nonstick coating, you can always put parchment paper down, right?

[Marilyn Ong]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we have cake pans that we recommend, too, and a lot of them are made by USA Pan. They do actually have a nonstick coating on them, but they are silicon based. They don't use the same forever chemicals that say nonstick cookware does.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We're going to take a quick break, and when we're back, we'll talk through what you should know about the best swaps for plastic utensils and plastic food storage. We'll be right back.

[Marilyn Ong]

Hey, I'm Robert Vinlowen. I'm from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to people about wordle and the wordle Archive. Do you all play wordle?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I play it every day.

[Marilyn Ong]

All right. I have something exciting to show you. It's the wordle Archive. What? Okay, that's awesome. So now you can play every wordle.

[Katie Okamoto]

That has ever existed.

[Marilyn Ong]

There's like a thousand puzzles.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What?

[Rosie Garant]

Wordle Archive.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, cool. Now you can do yesterday's wordle.

[Marilyn Ong]

If you missed it, New York Times.

[Rosie Garant]

Game subscribers can now access the entire Wordle archive. Find out more at nytimes.com game subscribe.

[Marilyn Ong]

By May 11th to get a special offer.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back to the show. It's our first roundtable episode. Our guests are wirecutter sustainability editor Katie Okamoto and senior kitchen editor Marilyn Ong.

[Rosie Garant]

That's right. And today we are unpacking the concept of detoxifying your kitchen. What that actually means, where to start, materials and products you can consider if you're looking to shift away from plastics.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Katie, you came on the show to talk about microplastics a few months ago. We'll link to that episode in the show notes. And you told us that the most important plastics to pay attention to in the kitchen are anything that might be getting heated, like food storage containers you would put in the microwave or any plastics that get a lot of wear and tear. These would be things like cutting board or utensils that you're using a lot and then single use plastics, things like disposable water bottles.

[Katie Okamoto]

Yeah, I would really start by thinking about eliminating plastic from food or drink uses where they'll be heated, where it's single use plastic, and where you're like routinely gonna be scraping or scratching that plastic. And this is again about exposure over time. And so we're thinking about the big picture here, not perfection.

[Rosie Garant]

Katie, can we talk about black plastics specifically? Yeah, I'm curious about this. There was that report last October about flame retard in black plastic utensils that gave me pause. I'm curious how you processed that and what you can say about them.

[Katie Okamoto]

I actually reported on this as well and ended up updating that article because the study that galvanized all these headlines around black plastic had a significant math error in it by an order of magnitude. The study overall was looking for evidence that black plastic, which is often made from recycled electronics, can leach flame retardants, chemicals that are in electronics, into food. And so this was a study. There have been other areas of research into this question, but this was a study that did find that there was evidence of leaching some of those chemicals that have been linked to cancer, in some cases leaching that into food. And so the correction found that the highest level of one chemical which was linked to cancer was actually at a significant lower level than the reference dose that the EPA sets the reference dose just to explain that it's the maximum allowable daily dose that the EPA has determined will not lead to serious health impacts over a lifetime, but not including cancer. And so the authors maintained after this correction that the conclusion stands that black plastic used for food is concerning due to the potential for leaching some of these chemicals. I would say clearly this is one of those instances where it's a question of your relationship to risk. And I understand that that can feel quite unhelpful. I would kind of back up and say experts say there is a risk that plastic of any color might leach potentially harmful chemicals and or tiny plastic particles into food. And so that just goes back to the advice that we were talking about a little bit ago. Taking your Relationship into risk into account. Since the research and regulations are works in progress, but in general trying to scale back plastic, specifically in these like heating contexts in the kitchen, that all.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Just sounds too complicated for a cooking spoon. Like, why do we have to think about that? For a cooking spoon we shouldn't have.

[Katie Okamoto]

To be like a hundred percent, like, let's not do more math than we need to use wood.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Marilyn, if, if someone is looking at their kitchen, they see their food storage containers, they see the plastic cutting board, they see the plastic utensils. What are some good swaps here that people can make?

[Marilyn Ong]

If you are routinely storing your leftovers in a plastic container and then zapping it in the microwave, I would suggest switching to glass food storage containers. So we have two top picks, the Pyrex Freshlock and Snapwear Total Solutions glass container sets. Those are actually identical sets because the companies have combined, but because those lids are plastic, I would recommend removing that lid if you're going to be microwaving your food. We also are making the Pyrex ultimate set, one of our picks. And that's a set that has glass lids with silicone kind of gaskets around it. And those are not airtight, they're not locking, but, but they don't leak super easily. And so for everyday use in your fridge, they should be fine. And that is a completely plastic free option.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about cutting boards?

[Marilyn Ong]

There is evidence that plastic cutting boards can expose someone to up to like 50 grams of plastic annually. Also, one of the experts that Michael Sullivan, our cutting boards writer, spoke to during research for that guide was telling him, you know, again, the exposure is on the small side compared to everything kind of globally. And so again, you make your choice whether to use wood boards, which are heavier and more expensive, or if you need the lightness and the convenience of a plastic cutting board. You just have to know the exposure budget that you're spending on that. But we do recommend quite a few wood boards that come in different sizes. The Jones wooden cutting board is beautiful. It's a maple end grain cutting board. And again, wood cutting boards will last you a long, long time.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's great.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about utensils? Like we talked about, not cooking with plastic utensils. What are some good swaps that we recommend on the site for cooking utensils?

[Marilyn Ong]

So we have a full spatula guide and I think every recommendation we have on there is either wood, metal, and we do have some silicone recommendations. If you stop using nonstick pans, you can use metal spatulas because cast Iron and carbon steel pans are not afraid of a metal utensil.

[Katie Okamoto]

But you'll be free.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yes, you'll be free. You'll be free of that worry. And one of my favorite tools of all time is the fish spatula. It is thin and bendy and you can do so much with it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Marilyn, what about electric kettles? I know sometimes these have plastic on the inside. Some of them, yes.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah, I mean some of them have full bodies of plastic, so definitely don't recommend that. Our top pick, the Cuisinart Perfect Temp is a great kettle. There are a couple small parts of it that do touch the water. So if you want a completely non plastic option, the Cuisinart gooseneck kettle that we also recommend in our guide, that one, the entire body of the kettle is metal.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm curious also about silicone because I see silicone products everywhere. Katie, I know you've written about silicone, the pros and cons of using silicone. But what are the plastic implications of silicone? Is it shedding just like single use plastic or is it different?

[Katie Okamoto]

It is a different material. Silicone is a synthetic silicon based polymer and it's considered safer for health at high temperatures than plastic. But there are some studies that show that it does shed and we just don't know yet, you know, enough about the potential health impacts to say what that means. People usually are looking to silicone to replace single use plastic bags and it does, you know, obviously address the reduction of single use plastic, which we do know can shed quite a bit. And so I think with silicone bags it's kind of like thinking about the environmental big picture. When you're buying any kind of reusable replacement for a single use disposable thing, make sure you're going to reuse it and keep reusing it. Otherwise the environmental impact can be comparatively high. And also I would think about what's the problem we're trying to solve by going for something like a silicone bag. Sometimes we can find alternatives that aren't like a one to one replacement. You could maybe use a glass jar or some other kind of container. So yeah, I think long story short, it does shed, but we don't really know exactly what that means yet.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So I just want to pause for a moment and recap what we've talked about so far when it comes to plastic. Whenever possible you want to replace plastic in your kitchen that is exposed to heat or abrasion. Most of the time the swaps are going to be things like metal Spatulas or wood cutting boards or glass food storage containers. Big plus to these is that they are going to last longer than the plastic versions. We are going to link to some of our favorite, you know, utensils, cutting boards, et cetera in the show notes. You also want to look out for appliances that might have plastic or nonstick elements and upgrade to models that have maybe a stainless steel interior the next time you're in the market to to get one of these. And for the most part, silicone in the kitchen is probably okay, but there might be some better things that you could use that would actually last you longer and you might already have in your kitchen.

[Rosie Garant]

Before we wrap, we always ask our guests that final question. So, Katie, you first. What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

[Katie Okamoto]

I'm trying to do a low buy this year.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Can you explain what that means?

[Katie Okamoto]

Oh, sure. I'm just trying not to buy things that I don't need. But my Achilles heel is cookbooks. And the book that I recently purchased is Amriken, which is by Khushboo Shah. It's all recipes from the Indian American diaspora. And it's so good, I cannot recommend it highly enough. I make like Indian inspired pizzas on sheet pans for friends and just me. It's just like an amazing cookbook.

[Rosie Garant]

Living your best life. Marilyn, what was the last thing you bought that you loved?

[Marilyn Ong]

So I did not buy this. I volunteered to long term test this homedics shiatsu massage pad thing. It's a cushion. I love those giant massage chairs. We've tested them in the Office, but they're $3,000 and I can't fit one of those in my house. So I volunteered to test this cushion. And we just strapped it to the back of our IKEA poing chair that we also got secondhand from a friend. And it is like, you know, the most ramshackle massage setup you can imagine. But we love it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And it gives you like a nice back massage.

[Marilyn Ong]

Yeah.

[Rosie Garant]

Well, Katie Okamoto and Marilyn Ong, thank you guys so much for joining us.

[Marilyn Ong]

Thank you for having us.

[Katie Okamoto]

Thank you.

[Rosie Garant]

Katie and Marilyn, now veterans of the show.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I love both of them so much.

[Rosie Garant]

Between the three of you, I really got a good sense of some of the ways I can think about reducing maybe plastic use and toxicity in the kitchen, if it exists.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, the great thing about what both of them had to say is there's just, first of all, I don't think people need to be as scared as. As some people seem to be about different materials in the kitchen. But if you are concerned, there are just so many good options. And I think a universal theme here is that if you are looking to reduce some of these things like plastic or nonstick coatings in your kitchen, the swaps are actually much more durable. They're the kind of thing that will last a lot longer. You'll probably be able to get many more years of use out of them, and they're probably healthier for you in general.

[Rosie Garant]

So when we. So sustainability and also health, which I think is sort of a one, two punch, what are your main takeaways?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, you know, one thing that I hadn't really thought too much about, but I really loved in this conversation, is this idea around an exposure budget. Yeah, everyone is going to have a different exposure budget. Everyone will have sort of different factors that are more important to them than others. And for me, that, that really means personally reducing plastic when it comes into contact with my food. So I've pretty much gotten rid of all of my plastic food storage containers. I have glass containers. But for me, like, I'll continue using some plastic tools in the kitchen and I will continue to use the nonstick insert in my rice cooker because as Marilyn mentioned in the episode, the rice cooker doesn't get, you know, so hot that you really have to worry about off gassing or something.

[Rosie Garant]

Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So I, you know, I think that's just a really good thing to keep in mind. Like you don't necessarily have to reduce everything. It doesn't have to go to zero. Just focus on where it's most important. For you personally, I think that's perfect.

[Rosie Garant]

And I also think that, that my takeaway is similar. My exposure budget is slightly different than yours. I have little kids, so I think I'm really trying to do those swaps where I see them. The reality is we have plastic containers in our home. They work for myriad reasons. But I'm bearing in mind we're not gonna heat them up. Yeah, we're gonna throw them out or recycle them if they have abrasions, if they have cut. And then we also have nonstick pans that work really well for us. But I think a thing I learned from this is that 400 degree mark. So bearing in mind that we have to use these pans correctly, keep the heat below 400 degrees so that we're not worried about those fumes releasing from. From Teflon.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of these products, like the nonstick cookware a plastic, you know, bento box or like kids snack container. These are really useful and they can be like the right thing at the right time.

[Rosie Garant]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So you shouldn't feel guilty or like you're poisoning your family or anything. It's just about sort of choosing the right tool for the right time.

[Rosie Garant]

Love it. We should also mention before we go that this is a huge topic. There is continuing research. We hear more and more about it almost every day. We covered a lot in this conversation. We didn't cover everything exhaustively. So we're going to talk in a later episode about water filtration specifically and when to think about filtering your water, how to do it. And also another consideration is air pollution in your kitchen, particularly when it comes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

To a gas stove and when you might want to swap to an induction cooktop.

[Rosie Garant]

Induction. It's a whole other context. It's a whole other category. Yeah, absolutely. And I know that Wirecutter has done a lot of testing and reporting on that too. So tbc, if you want to find out more about Wirecutters coverage, Marilyn Ong's reporting. Katie Okamoto's reporting. If you want to check out any of the products we recommend today, check out the website or you can find a link in our show notes. Thank you so much for listening, Christine. We got Kyra back next week.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's right. I'm looking forward to it.

[Rosie Garant]

Off we go.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

See ya.

[Rosie Garant]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Ba Itup and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Garant]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. Thank you for listening.

[Marilyn Ong]

No joke. I left a gas stove on low with a cast iron pan on it for a week.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What?

[Marilyn Ong]

Because we went away and we came back and found our cast iron pan still seasoning on the stove for a week. Don't do that.

[Rosie Garant]

The Wirecutter show is supported by Nordstrom. Looking for the perfect Mother's Day gift? Nordstrom has everything you need for everyone who inspires you. Mom, grandma, mentor, or even yourself. From cozy must haves and best selling beauty products to meaningful jewelry and stylish outfits, there's something for every mother figure in your life. Best of all, there are plenty of thoughtful gifts under $100. Download the Nordstrom app, or visit in store today for all your Mother's Day gifting needs.