Dishwasher Disputes, Settled

Summary

The Wirecutter Show - Episode: "Dishwasher Disputes, Settled"

Release Date: January 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the latest episode of The Wirecutter Show, hosted by Christine Cyrclassette, Kyra Blackwell, and Rosie Guerin, the team delves into the often-overlooked household appliance that can stir up significant marital strife: the dishwasher. Titled "Dishwasher Disputes, Settled," this episode offers a comprehensive exploration of dishwashers, from their functionality and maintenance to the best practices for loading and detergent use.

The Great Dishwasher Debate

The episode kicks off with a lighthearted debate among the hosts about which household appliance is most responsible for divorces in America. After dismissing the refrigerator and washer, Rosie Guerin humorously declares, “It’s obviously the dishwasher. Oh, duh.” (01:12) Rosie characterizes dishwasher users as either “white glove” loaders—meticulous and organized—or the “raccoons”—those who load dishes haphazardly (01:43). Christine humorously notes that her own marriage avoids these disputes, suggesting a harmonious middle ground.

Guest Introduction: Andrea Barnes

The conversation takes a more informative turn with the introduction of Andrea Barnes, a staff writer at Wirecutter specializing in large appliances. Andrea’s expertise sets the stage for an in-depth discussion on dishwashers, covering everything from how they work to optimizing their performance.

How Dishwashers Operate

Andrea demystifies dishwasher mechanics, explaining that contrary to popular belief, dishwashers do not fill entirely with water. Instead, a typical cycle uses 3 to 6 gallons of water, which is recirculated through spray arms to clean the dishes (07:08). She emphasizes that Energy Star regulations have led to more water-efficient models, resulting in longer cycles but greater water savings.

Dishwashers vs. Hand Washing

When compared to hand washing, Andrea highlights significant advantages:

• Water Efficiency: Modern dishwashers use considerably less water than hand washing, which often consumes 1.5 to 2 gallons per minute (07:43).
• Sanitation: Dishwashers generally provide more sanitary results, thanks to higher water temperatures and consistent cleaning cycles (08:17).

The Rinse Controversy

A contentious topic emerges when Christine shares that The Wirecutter recommends scraping but not rinsing dishes before loading them into the dishwasher. Andrea explains two key reasons:

1. Dishwasher Design: The appliance is engineered to handle a certain amount of soil without pre-rinsing.
2. Detergent Efficiency: Modern detergents are more effective when they interact with a small amount of food residue, preventing potential damage to dishes (08:58).

Kyra inquires about the implications of not rinsing, especially regarding filter maintenance. Andrea advises that while moderate scraping suffices, excessive food residue can clog filters and damage the machine (12:07). She recommends monthly cleaning of the dishwasher filter to maintain optimal performance (13:21).

Detergent Dynamics: Pods vs. Powders and Liquids

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding dishwasher detergents. Andrea breaks down the components:

• Enzymes: Key for breaking down fats and starches.
• Bleach: Often oxygen-based, aids in stain removal.
• Salt: Helps in water softening (27:12).

The Wirecutter’s top pick, Cascade Free and Clear Action Packs, are highlighted for their effective dual-action pods that separate enzymes and bleach until the cycle begins, preventing premature deactivation (28:21). Andrea explains the environmental concerns surrounding pod films, clarifying that polyvinyl alcohol used in pods does not classify as microplastics per scientific consensus (30:37). Despite some environmental reservations, Andrea suggests that the cleaning benefits outweigh the minimal ecological impact.

Rinse Aid: Necessity or Not?

The discussion shifts to rinse aid, a surfactant that prevents water droplets from forming, thereby reducing spots on glassware. Andrea notes that while rinse aid can enhance drying and reduce spotting, its necessity depends on individual preferences and dishwasher performance (32:47).

Optimal Loading Techniques

Andrea provides expert tips on loading dishwashers to maximize cleaning efficiency:

• Spray Arm Access: Ensure that spray arms can reach all surfaces by avoiding overcrowding and placing items strategically (22:18).
• Utensil Placement: Load forks and spoons handle-side down, with knives laid flat to ensure thorough cleaning (22:23).
• Strategic Rack Loading: Place heavily soiled items toward the center where spray impact is strongest (24:05).
• Avoiding Overloading: Prevent large items from blocking spray arms, which can create “dead zones” where dishes remain unclean (23:37).

Maintenance and Warranties

Maintaining a dishwasher involves regular cleaning of filters and occasionally running maintenance cycles with products like Lemoshine or Affresh to keep the interior clean and odor-free (15:32). Regarding warranties, Andrea emphasizes their importance, recommending extended warranties for added peace of mind. She cites Top picks like the Miele G5008, which offers an automatic two-year warranty extendable to five years, and highlights retailers like Ikea and Costco, known for robust warranty policies (36:02).

Final Insights and Recommendations

As the episode concludes, each host shares personal takeaways:

• Kyra appreciates the advice on not running the dishwasher when leaving the house, aligning with her mother's wisdom (38:11).
• Christine plans to refine her loading techniques to ensure better cleaning outcomes (38:21).
• Rosie considers experimenting with different detergents to enhance dishwasher performance (38:46).

Andrea Barnes wraps up by recommending the League of Kitchens cookbook, praising its meticulous recipe development and diverse culinary perspectives (36:39).

Conclusion

"Dishwasher Disputes, Settled" offers listeners a thorough understanding of dishwashers, transforming a mundane appliance into a topic of both practical significance and nuanced discussion. Whether you’re seeking to optimize your dishwasher’s performance, choose the right detergent, or simply avoid household arguments, this episode provides actionable insights backed by expert knowledge and rigorous testing.

For more detailed tips and product recommendations discussed in this episode, visit nytimes.com/wirecutter or refer to the show notes.

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Notable Quotes

• Rosie Guerin (01:12): “It’s obviously the dishwasher. Oh, duh.”
• Andrea Barnes (08:17): “Overall, absolutely. Yes, it’s more sanitary.”
• Christine Cyrclassette (08:58): “We actually recommend that you don’t rinse your dishes before you put them in the dishwasher.”
• Andrea Barnes (27:12): “The main cleaning agent in dishwasher detergent is enzymes, which are biological molecules that exist in your everyday life and like to break things down.”
• Kyra Blackwell (22:18): “Iyanla fixed my life. Andrea fixed my...”

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Timestamps

• 01:12: Rosie introduces the dishwasher debate.
• 01:43: Rosie describes dishwasher user types.
• 07:08: Andrea explains dishwasher water usage.
• 07:43: Comparison of water efficiency.
• 08:17: Sanitation benefits.
• 08:58: Scraping vs. rinsing dishes.
• 12:07: Filter maintenance advice.
• 13:21: Monthly filter cleaning recommendation.
• 15:32: Environmental impact of pods.
• 22:18: Loading techniques overview.
• 22:23: Utensil placement tips.
• 23:37: Avoiding overloading for spray access.
• 24:05: Strategic rack placement.
• 27:12: Breakdown of dishwasher detergents.
• 27:21: Cascade Free and Clear Action Packs.
• 28:21: Chemistry behind detergent pods.
• 30:37: Clarification on pod films and microplastics.
• 32:22: Rinse aid usage.
• 36:02: Importance of warranties.
• 36:39: Andrea’s favorite recent purchase.
• 38:11: Kyra’s takeaway.

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This summary is crafted to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode, ensuring that even those who haven't listened can grasp the key discussions and insights shared by The Wirecutter Show team and their expert guest, Andrea Barnes.

Transcript

[Josh Haner]

Hi, I'm Josh Haner and I'm a staff photographer at the New York Times covering climate change. For years, we've sort of imagined this picture of a polar bear floating on a piece of ice. Those have been the images associated with climate change. My challenge is to find stories that show you how climate change is affecting our world right now. If you want to support the kind of journalism that we're working on here on the climate and environment desk at the New York Times, please subscribe on our website or our app.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

From the New York Times. You're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Hey, everyone, it's the Wirecutter Show. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from the New York Times.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Each week we bring you expert advice from Our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This episode of the Wirecutter show is called Dishwasher Disputes Settled.

[Rosie Guerin]

Kyra and Christine.

[Andrea Barnes]

Uh oh, oh.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

She's using her adult voice, her serious voice.

[Rosie Guerin]

Today on the podcast, we are discussing the appliance responsible for a great number of divorces in America. Any guesses?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I really have.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Refrigerator.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

The refrigerator. No, I think it's gotta be something like the washer.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's obviously the dishwasher. Oh, duh. In my experience, every marriage consists of two distinctive people, and you're either one or the other. You're either the white glover or you're the raccoon. Okay, stay with me.

[Andrea Barnes]

I'm here.

[Rosie Guerin]

The white glover loads a dishwasher like they're in a high end antique shop. Meticulous, organized, everything in its place. And then there's me, the raccoon. The raccoon takes its little paws with its little opposable thumbs and tosses those dishes in any empty available space it sees. Efficient, inspired, creative, infuriating. Top rack, bottom rack, the air quotes, silverware basket. We don't discriminate. So in my experience, again, in my experience, the white glover tends to take umbrage with the raccoon, while the raccoon is simply happy to be sharing a life with the white Glo. And now somehow I'm no longer talking about dishwashers.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

You know what? I. It's funny because I know that this is like a big deal in a lot of people's relationships.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sure is.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's not in my marriage. But I think that's because we maybe are on the spectrum somewhere between the raccoon and the white glover. Like, we're. We're well matched.

[Rosie Guerin]

You must have something that's a metaphor for your marriage.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mean, yeah, there's probably other things and we'll talk about those in other episodes, but I. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. Kyra, do you have this issue in your life?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh, yeah. I fight with myself all the time about the dishwasher that I don't have.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, just for yourself.

[Andrea Barnes]

Right, Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Because you don't have a dishwasher.

[Andrea Barnes]

Right.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But when I'm in other people's homes, including my partners, I feel like as long as the dishes are clean, nobody's fussing.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. I think I'm just so grateful to have a dishwasher because I lived without one for about 15 years, my first 15 years living in the city. So just having a dishwasher is just like this joyous, wonderful thing in my life.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And so you guys are not going to be fighting over who's loading it because you're just too grateful.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We're just like, oh, my gosh, we don't have to do it. That's great.

[Andrea Barnes]

Ye.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But in all seriousness, today we're actually going to dive deep into dishwashers. Like, how do they actually work? How can you get yours to work even better?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And we're going to talk about detergents. We're going to talk about all that and more with none other than Andrea Barnes, Wirecutter's staff writer covering all types of cleaning appliances. You may remember her from our first episode on Laundry. She's a total gem and is going to be able to definitively tell us, Rosie, how you are supposed to load your dishwasher.

[Rosie Guerin]

I can't wait.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Let's see if you win this fight.

[Rosie Guerin]

Not a chance. We'll be right back.

[Andrea Barnes]

Okay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm opening the New York Times app.

[Josh Haner]

The app has so much more than you might expect.

[Andrea Barnes]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Rosie Guerin]

It'S just easier to navigate that way. There is something for everyone.

[Andrea Barnes]

When I open the YouTube, I get a short list of articles that are more related to me. 10 stories picked for you Every day.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You're able to add sections that interest you.

[Andrea Barnes]

That's really handy. There are some individuals in here I can add.

[Rosie Guerin]

Paul Krugman or Jamelle Bouie.

[Andrea Barnes]

I like him. The lifestyle tab, the photos are just phenomenal.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's kind of like a collage.

[Andrea Barnes]

I go to games, always scroll over.

[Kyra Blackwell]

To the games page, play portal or.

[Andrea Barnes]

Connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines. There's an article next to a recipe next to games, and it's just easy to get everything in one place.

[Rosie Guerin]

And before you know it, you're gonna be late to work.

[Kyra Blackwell]

The New York Times app, all of.

[Andrea Barnes]

The times all in one place.

[Rosie Guerin]

Download it [e-mail] app.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show. Our guest today is Andrea Barnes. She's a staff writer at Wirecutter who specializes in reporting on large appliances like washers, dryers, and dishwashers. It's like the holy trinity. Andrea was our first ever guest on the Wirecutter show back in August when she talked with us about laundry. And we're so happy to have her back. What an honor.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hey, Andrea, welcome.

[Andrea Barnes]

Hi.

[Rosie Guerin]

All right, Andrea, good to see you. First question, the question on everyone's minds. How do dishwashers work 101?

[Andrea Barnes]

Well, I can tell you how they don't work. A lot of people think that they fill up to the top with water once you close the door. And that's not what happens. Yeah. This is actually something that people have said to me.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like, fill up completely.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah. Like an aquarium or something. It's like taking a bath. Like a bath for your dishes?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Andrea Barnes]

Deep soak. Every cycle dish. Yeah. So basically when you load your dishwasher and you put the detergent in and you start it, a few gallons of water will come out and sort of pre rinse the dishes. Then the detergent will dispense and then more water comes out, two or three gallons. And then for the next, depending on how long the cycle is. So it could be like 30 minutes, it could be two hours. The water is circulated through the spray arms and sprayed onto the dishes and then it goes back down into the drain and then is pumped out and put over the dishes again. This is probably about 70% of the cycle. And then the end, it will be rinsed again before if you have selected drying, the drying cycle.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So it's, it's just that water is just recirculating over and over.

[Andrea Barnes]

It is. And it wasn't always like that. This is a somewhat new phenomenon. You know, one of the comments I get a lot from people when they're buying dishwashers or they install a new one is they're surprised by how long the cycles are.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Andrea Barnes]

And it's because of Energy Star regulations and certifications, dishwashers are using less water, which means the cycles have to go on for longer and the water needs to be circulated for a longer time.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay. So, you know, I think people always assume that a dishwasher is just awesome because it is convenient. But if you have the choice, why use a dishwasher instead of hand washing your dishes in silverware?

[Andrea Barnes]

So dishwashers definitely use less water. Modern dishwashers usually use around 3 to 6 gallons for a normal cycle. If you want to compare that to hand washing, let's say an average faucet in your home, when it's running, is running one and a half to two gallons of water per minute. Most people are gonna take longer than two minutes to wash dishes. Right. So when you start doing basic math, you are definitely saving water with a dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Is it more sanitary to use a dishwasher as opposed to hand washing, too?

[Andrea Barnes]

It depends. Yes. Overall, absolutely. Yes, it's more sanitary. If you wanted to run your water really hot with hand washing, you could probably kill a lot of bacteria. But in general, you're definitely going to have more sanitary dishes running them in the dishwasher.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All right, I have a highly controversial question. I think it's the thing that nobody believes, which is that we actually recommend that you don't rinse your dishes before you put them in the dishwasher. So you should scrape, but you shouldn't rinse them. But I've talked with people before about this, and they just refuse to believe it.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yes.

[Andrea Barnes]

I don't know who started this rumor to have dishwashers not do their job, but that's why the machine exists. It's called a dishwasher, not a dish sanitizer. It's also pretty cool. It's one of the older American appliances. It was originally invented in the 1800s by a woman. And of course, it was because women.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Were probably washing all the dishes.

[Andrea Barnes]

Right. You know, it's really cool. A lot of where women enter in the science world, a lot of it is through home ec. The dishwasher is not an exception to that. So if you consider that this dishwasher is, you know, nearing 200 years old, the concept of it, I'm pretty sure that your dishwasher can do its job if it's at least a decent dishwasher. So there's two reasons to scrape and not rinse your dishes. The first is that the point of the dishwasher is to wash dishes, and it's designed to do so. The second is that modern detergents work better with a little bit of soil. So if you don't put any food stuff or soil into your dishwasher, you run the risk of harming your plates and your glasses. You can see frosted glass. You'll see, you know, etching on items.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So when you say scrape, you mean just if you have food scraps on your plate, you're supposed to put those in the trash and then put your dish directly into the dishwasher?

[Andrea Barnes]

Yes.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What about, I'm guilty of sometimes letting dishes sit in the sink for too long, and then you have that crusty ring on your dishes, and it's kind of like you have to pick at it to get it off. Is that a situation in which it's reasonable to completely wash it off, or do you trust your dishwasher to get that as well?

[Andrea Barnes]

It depends on the dishwasher. But I would say if it's hard to wash off by hand, don't expect your dishwasher to be able to do it without a little bit of extra effort. That might be a time to soak a dish before you put it in.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

To that point. Are there other times when it might be better to rinse your dishes? Like, I just feel like sometimes, like an old dishwasher or you're at somebody's house and they don't have the best detergent or something?

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah, so that's a good question. I would say that this falls more under a machinery difference. You know, most cars are going to get you from point A to point B, but every car is different. And I would say dishwashers can also have sort of similar quirks. So if you have an old dishwasher, you know, you've tried everything. You've rinsed the filter, if it has one, you've tried better detergent, and it's still not cleaning dishes. I would say maybe that's the case for rinsing. I would also say if you're rinsing your dishes already, you might want to save up and buy a new dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh, no.

[Andrea Barnes]

Okay. I know. Because at that point, you're doing the work twice, Right.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Well, if you're telling us that we shouldn't be rinsing your dishes before you put them in the dishwasher, I'm assuming that means that there's a lot of buildup in the filter. Eventually, wouldn't that end up breaking your machine?

[Andrea Barnes]

It depends on how liberal you are with your scraping. Right. I think sometimes people get confused. When you say, don't rinse your dishes, they put like, a Thanksgiving dinner into their dishwasher, and then they're, like, surprised. They flood it. If you were to do things like that, not Only would your spray arms start distributing debris everywhere, but you also would have potentially flood your dishwasher from clogs. So don't do anything like that. But even leaving a fair amount of food once you've scraped off. So when I say a fair amount, I'd say like a tablespoon of yogurt completely spread on a plate and dried out. Like, something like that would be totally fine. And you put it in your dishwasher. Enzymes break down the soils. So really, the things that get stuck in the filter are gonna be things that take a really long time to break down. So it's gonna be corn, lettuce, even. I mean, in dishwasher testing, if you look at our. Any of our articles about it, we really put these dishwashers to the test. And I can only think of one instance where after a full ridiculous dishwasher load that no one would ever wash, where something happened to the filter. And it was really more an issue with the dishwasher.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh.

[Andrea Barnes]

So, yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, so then how often would you recommend people clean their fil. The whole machine itself?

[Andrea Barnes]

I would say rinse it monthly. Yeah, yeah, Monthly.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What do you mean, rinse it?

[Andrea Barnes]

So the filter is underneath the bottom spray arms. So you find the bottom spray arms and you pull them off and then you sort of twist. What you'll pull out is this little mesh looking basket. Kind of tap it off in your compost bin or your trash can and rinse it off in hot water and you're good to go. You put it back in. You actually don't even want to clean it that well because again, the enzymes work a little better with a little soil.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, so we all have a little bit of permission. A little sloppy.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But you still have to do it monthly. I feel like we all passed over.

[Andrea Barnes]

I mean, I mean, look, that's me telling you exactly what you should do. But do clean it monthly. Well, no, but I. I have a partner who does, so. Oh, okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

Get yourself a partner. So that's the filter. Do you have to be cleaning the machine itself? Because I. I feel like I've seen. And by seen, I mean have been victimized, suckered into from TikTok, putting like a upright cup of white vinegar on the top of the rack or like throwing in a half a lemon and just running a cycle in it with the idea that maybe that will clean the drum and the inside and the filter.

[Andrea Barnes]

So that is something you can do in general. Remember, as much as I cover cleaning, I also cover appliances. So I'm going To tell you what an appliance person would say, citric acid. So I would say if you've rinsed your dishwasher filter and you're still seeing some debris and you've checked for blockages or whatever, or something just smells weird and you can't figure out what's going on, I would say to run a cycle with Lemoshine or afresh.

[Rosie Guerin]

So now I want to know how you test these, because we talked about testing washers and detergent when you came on for the laundry episode. How are you out here testing dishwashers? Paint us a picture.

[Andrea Barnes]

You know, it's funny because in many ways, as much as I love laundry testing, dishwasher detergent testing is kind of my favorite. But, ooh, why only in scoring? In actual prep, it's the worst. What do you mean by scoring?

[Rosie Guerin]

Like the music you listen to?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Or is it like three people standing with cards with numbers on them giving the scores?

[Andrea Barnes]

Okay, I'll explain it. But to start before we get there. So basically there are a lot of industrial tests for dishwashers. The one we use is the association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. Aham. The dishwasher test basically takes different materials that they know can challenge dishwashers, and they are run through cycles to see how they test.

[Rosie Guerin]

So what are we talking, like Ritz crackers, Mac and cheese?

[Andrea Barnes]

Egg is a big one. Egg yolk. One of my favorites actually is raspberry jam. To test for debris, because the seeds, a lot of things break down when you start washing them. But you know raspberry seed when you see one. If you've ever. If you have any with your.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Have you ever had a child?

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

I feel like, how are they breaking down? Even in our own bodies, this is a separate episode. They don't. But like, are we made of raspberry seeds?

[Kyra Blackwell]

I don't want to think about that.

[Rosie Guerin]

Anyway, go on.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Do you guys do like the crusty, flaky oatmeal that's been left in the bowl?

[Andrea Barnes]

We do. And it's really interesting to see you really start to see trends with certain dishwasher detergents and where they really excel with certain types of food stuff through testing. Like, some are really awesome at getting oatmeal, but mysteriously nothing else. When we test, so we have a full dish load, so it will usually be about 10 place settings, which includes bowls, plates, salad plates, and we put different food stuff on them in quartiles. So we kind of change it up depending on the year. But one year we did Creamed corn, raspberry jam, avocado, and egg yolk. And for most of those dishes, we have them dry over a few hours, but then for three of them, we call them our impossible plates and we microwave them for a couple minutes.

[Rosie Guerin]

Ooh.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But I was gonna say great. Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Are you like Jackson Pollock painting them on and then just letting them crust?

[Andrea Barnes]

Kinda, yeah. It's not for the faint of heart. Every year when we do dishwasher testing, I, like, don't eat dinner. Cause it just gets so gross. So the first thing we do is we run that full load with tomato juice coated glasses and wine stained and lipstick stained wine glasses. We run a full load first on the normal cycle. The normal cycle is the cycle that dishwasher companies are tested on. So this is the most energy efficient cycle. And it's the easiest way to find out pretty quickly how good a dishwasher is. It's also important to note that we don't expect perfect performance from any of these dishwashers with this test, because most people aren't putting this level of stuff into their dishwasher. When that cycle's done, we open the dishwasher and we keep track of how dry things are, what kind of debris is left on handles, and then we literally score the dishwasher. So I and members of my team will sit and read off a number for each stain.

[Kyra Blackwell]

One out of ten. One out of ten.

[Andrea Barnes]

The highest you can get is five.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Andrea Barnes]

And that's bad.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So five is bad.

[Andrea Barnes]

Five is bad. You want a lower number, you want a low score?

[Kyra Blackwell]

So what exactly are you scoring for?

[Andrea Barnes]

We go by the size of debris or the size of leftover stains. So if something is smaller than a dime, that would be a one something. And then it goes up. If it's two quarters, that's a five. So we go by. We go by coins. There we go.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

There you go.

[Andrea Barnes]

We score that. And we always throw in some curve balls, depending on trends we're seeing in testing. But I love this form of testing because it's very straightforward compared to laundry.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

Are you also testing for things like the duration of the cycle or for how well it filters? Or is it really just kind of performance? The main central thing a dishwasher is supposed to do, cleaning your dishes, how.

[Andrea Barnes]

Good the filter is is gonna be a part of how well it cleans. And that's why we have like, the raspberry seeds and coffee grounds and things of that nature. And probably the biggest test for that too, is the tomato juice debris, because again, it's very easy to tell if you have a raspberry seed that is somehow mysteriously now on the back of a plate. Like, you can really judge how the filter works. So the filter is definitely part of it. So most of these dishwashers run on sensor. When you're putting a full meal's worth of dishes into the dishwasher, the sensor is going to elongate the cycle. It's going to lengthen the cycle. So we don't pay that much attention to dishwasher cycle length, except for express cycles and how effective they are.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about the rack? I actually have gone through two dishwashers in my apartment.

[Andrea Barnes]

What?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Because my landlords are awesome. And they replaced one or actually two that broke. So I'm on my third. And the newest one that we have, it has such a great. Has such a great rack. Like, it's just superior. The other two that we had had, we kind of realized we did not like the rack layout. Is that something that you consider.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah, absolutely. So, actually, one of my favorite dishwasher sources is a professor of robotics engineering now. And when I first interviewed him, I was really curious how he transitioned from working at Whirlpool designing dishwashers to robotic arms. And it was actually he designed collapsible tines, the joints on dishwashers. So he really walked us through what we want to look for in terms of recognizing quality in baskets and tines and racks. And we take a lot of that into account, but sometimes it's just. You can just tell by handling something. Like when you pull the rack out, some of them feel really wobbly and like they're gonna collapse. And others, you can just tell, are gonna hold your dish as well.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So, Andrea, I think this might be the most controversial question of this episode, maybe of Wirecutter show's entire history, but tell us, what is the correct way to load a dishwasher?

[Rosie Guerin]

Iyanla fixed my life. Andrea fixed my.

[Andrea Barnes]

So, to me, the most important part of loading your dishwasher is making sure that the spray arms are going to hit any of the dirty parts of your dishes. So that means don't load your bowls facing up. It means to make sure that your forks and spoons are either loaded in the third rack or the utensil basket in a way where they will also be hit. In testing, we play around with different placements of utensils, and you'd be surprised that actually a lot of times those yogurt spoons or oatmeal spoons that you think the dishwasher stinks. It's actually that you had it, like, tilted a certain way and like, nothing was getting on it. So I would say that you want to load forks and spoons handle side down and then knives laid side down. You also want to leave out certain items. So you do not want to wash wood items in your dishwasher. One, because you can ruin the wood, and two, because you could also risk, like, putting a splinter through your filter and causing avoidable problems.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Let's say that I'd always thought that if you put bowls on the bottom rack face down, then maybe it would stop the spray arms from reaching the top rack. Is that a real concern to have?

[Andrea Barnes]

Do you mean like, large mixing bowls?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, anything that's larger than your average. You know, like soup bowl.

[Andrea Barnes]

I mean, don't put, like, two sheet pans on your bottom rack and block everything, right?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, that's a good question. Like, should you be washing things like metal sheet pans or metal pots and pans?

[Kyra Blackwell]

The big ones.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Andrea Barnes]

I'm gonna let that be a personal choice. I've experimented with it when we dishwasher test. It's just not something that I would do all the time.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about, like, the edges of your racks? Is there a strategy to, like, where you put things actually on the racks?

[Andrea Barnes]

Yes. So the edges, especially the corners. If you think about the way a dishwasher works, the spray arms are circular in a bo. So there are dishwashers on the market that can really get those corners. I've tested them. They're great. That's not most dishwashers. An example would be a really dirty Bloody Mary glass or a ramekin filled with brownie batter or something like that. It might not get totally cleaned, depending on. So I wouldn't put those there. I'd put them more toward the middle of the. Of the top rack.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh, so the middle of the dishwasher is the best real estate to get.

[Andrea Barnes]

Cleaned if the machine's good. Yeah. I see some dishwashers have dead zones. It's really interesting.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Just know your dishwasher.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Andrea Barnes]

And I would say that if you consistently have dishes that are coming out, you're. You're being realistic about how much you're scraping off. I would take a look at the manual and make sure, because every. Every dishwasher is a little bit different. But also, most dishwashers have multiple ways you can load the top. So it might be. There is another way you could. You could place things that would be worth a.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I was always told by my mom Love her. That you should never run your dishwasher and then leave the house because something could happen. What are your thoughts on that?

[Andrea Barnes]

I think that's good advice. I do not run my dishwasher when I'm not home.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I was really not expecting you to say that.

[Andrea Barnes]

Really? That's a curve ball.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I thought you'd say it's fine.

[Andrea Barnes]

And the reason I'm going to say no is because it's so many dishwashers still use a heating element, and heating elements can get very hot, and you never know what could happen. Now, this is also being extremely cautious.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Andrea Barnes]

But, yeah, I wouldn't do it. I agree with your mom.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, so just to recap real quick, the best way to wash your dishes in a dishwasher is to scrape them, not rinse them. You should be loading your dishwasher appropriately. And we. We do have a guide that talks about this on the site.

[Andrea Barnes]

Right, we do.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So we will share that in the notes. You should be washing your dishwasher every once in a while. You should be cleaning the filter, cleaning the interior. Andrea, you also wrote a piece about that that we will include in the show notes.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So now we're going to take a quick break, and then when we're back, we'll get the final word on dishwasher detergents, liquid powder pods, all of it. We'll be right back.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show. Our guest is Andrea Barnes, wire cutter, staff writer, and dishwasher expert.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So, Andrea, let's talk detergent. You've tested over 35 of them, but we really want to dig in deep. So dishwasher detergent, what's in it and how does it work?

[Andrea Barnes]

So the main cleaning agent in dishwasher detergent is enzymes, which are biological molecules that exist in your everyday life and like to break things down. So certain enzymes and detergent break down fat starches. The other things that are in good dishwasher detergent would be some form of bleach, usually. Oftentimes it's oxygen bleach. So we're back to oxygen bleach again.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Which we talked about a lot in.

[Andrea Barnes]

Our laundry episode, and some form of salt. So dishwasher detergent, when the cycle starts and the water starts running in your dishwasher, it used to be that the dishwasher detergent dispensers had two dispensers. I don't know if anyone remembers this.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, I remember.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Andrea Barnes]

So they don't. It doesn't do that anymore. But basically, the dishwasher Detergent starts to dissolve as it's activated and runs through the wash system. It starts to break down the different food soils, which then provides more room for the surfactants and bleaches to clean the dishes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

The wire cutter pick for our favorite detergent is cascade free and clear action packs. Now, these are pods. I remember from our laundry episode. Andrea, you're not a big fan of pods for laundry because you can't pre treat laundry with pods. Why are pods winning for the dishwasher?

[Andrea Barnes]

This goes back to my favorite topic, chemistry. So basically, when you mix bleach and enzymes in a liquid form, you actually deactivate the enzymes. So when you have a liquid detergent, you either have a mostly bleach detergent or a mostly enzymatic detergent. Now, the whole point of the enzymes is to start breaking the soils down to let the other parts of the detergent do their job. So when you take one of them away, you have less of a clean. So powder detergent in that sense is superior because you can mix things in a solid form that you can't mix in a liquid form. With our picks, you kind of have the best of both worlds because you have the solid powder combined with liquid, but they don't actually combine until the cycle starts. So. And actually we've done this. We've done these dissolvability tests, and they're really cool. The way our picks dissolve is you see the powder start to break down into the glass, and the top liquid part takes a lot longer to break down. And the liquid part is usually some sort of liquid enzyme and some sort of cleaning booster that pushes it above. Just your typical powder washing, which is how they became pics.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Andrea. Something that we didn't get to cover in our laundry episode, but I know that some listeners wanted us to ask you, is pods, are they environmentally terrible? I think people think of them as wrapped in plastic and it's just going into the water creating, like a microplastic issue.

[Andrea Barnes]

Well, first of all. Okay, so I've interviewed, no joke, 11 scientists.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Wow.

[Andrea Barnes]

In the last two years to get to the bottom of the answer to this question. Not one of the scientists I spoke with believes that pod film would count as a microplastic because it's liquid.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What?

[Andrea Barnes]

So there's that.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What do you mean it's liquid? Because when you're holding a pod, it feels like a little plastic wrap.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Definitely feels solid.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah, it's water soluble. So that. That said, obviously that doesn't mean it disappears. Right. I wouldn't like go Throw a pod into the ocean, personally. But, you know, pod film is something called polyvinyl alcohol, which is a close relative to a different material called polyvinyl acetate, which is also known as glue. If you look at a patent for Elmer's glue slime kits, there's polyvinyl alcohol in it. It's actually something that we encounter every day. It's in eye drops. If you like to wear, like, sheet masks. It's in sheet masks, it's in mascara, it's in a lot of things.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I don't want it to be in these things.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's not a petroleum based film.

[Andrea Barnes]

It is petroleum based. It is some of it.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But what I'm hearing is that it's not a lot of a bad thing, but it is made of a kind of a bad thing, but it's so marginal that it doesn't matter, like, what. What actually is the answer here.

[Andrea Barnes]

I think that a really good dishwasher detergent. If, like, if you looked at the results of our testing and saw the difference between a chambered pod that we recommend versus a regular powder or liquid detergent of any kind, you'd be amazed. And in that regard to us, it really can be that you don't have to rinse your dishes. You're saving water. It's a personal choice. If it weirds you out, like, absolutely, don't do it. But don't think that there aren't other petrochemicals hanging out in any of the detergents you're buying. You know, I get that.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I do get that.

[Andrea Barnes]

And I think for us, when we think about this, there have been studies on the impact of polyvinyl alcohol. Like, I wouldn't say. Again, I wouldn't say, like, go throw a bunch of it into your ocean or, like, start eating it for fun. But I think in this case, like, based on what we know now, the benefits can outweigh it.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So, Andrea, what about rinse aid? What even is it? What does it do? And is it necessary?

[Andrea Barnes]

So rinse aid is another surfactant. And basically what it does is it prevents water from being like little droplets and puddles. It breaks into a sheet so that it dries faster, which can lead to less spots on your glassware. Whether or not you need it really depends on how fastidious you are.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Andrea Barnes]

I know a lot of people who don't use it, but they are designed to have rinse aid in them.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So, like, if I have a mediocre dishwasher and I don't really care if my wine glasses have spots, then I can skip it.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Rosie Guerin]

Can we close the loop on loading? I am the person who finds every single empty space in the dishwasher, and I throw things in. I think the word maybe is akimbo.

[Andrea Barnes]

How does your partner feel about this?

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh, not great.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, this is the premise of the whole show, right?

[Rosie Guerin]

This is the whole premise.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

But I just want mostly for you to say that I'm right.

[Andrea Barnes]

Okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I win.

[Andrea Barnes]

You know, I. I've been part of this great debate, and you know what I think the most powerful thing to do is? If you're the akimbo loader, just let the other person do it. You know, like, fight back.

[Rosie Guerin]

Two final very unsexy questions about manuals and warranties. Do you actually have to read your dishwasher manual?

[Andrea Barnes]

What's not sexy about a dishwasher manual?

[Rosie Guerin]

You know what?

[Andrea Barnes]

I take it there, I guess. How stubborn are you, Barry? Okay, so back to the great dishwasher debate. I do think that manuals are a great way to settle household disputes. Personally.

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's like the litigation book.

[Andrea Barnes]

It's your witness. Although the risk there is that you might lose. Especially if you live with someone who studies the dishwasher manual.

[Rosie Guerin]

Read it in secret first, and then decide if you want to bring it in secret.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Definitely come prepared to that conversation.

[Andrea Barnes]

You know? Sure. Everyone should read their dishwasher manual. Will they? So there's definitely a case to be made for reading any appliance manual. You'll get the basic rundown of a specific machine, and you'll likely learn something new about the specific appliance you have. This includes learning how you should clean it, basic maintenance. You might even learn something about it that makes your life a lot easier. You know, sometimes people don't realize that the dishwasher can connect to an app that makes it possible for you to monitor your dishwasher cycle more easily. Or sometimes it will tell you exactly how often you need to rinse your filter. And every dishwasher is a little different. A lot of the tips that we talked about are here and also, again, great material for settling household disputes.

[Rosie Guerin]

Manuals for continuing education and marriages.

[Andrea Barnes]

Yes.

[Rosie Guerin]

And then how about warranties? What should people know or bear in mind about warranties?

[Andrea Barnes]

So we take warranties into serious consideration when we look at appliances. And our current top pick, the Miele G5008, has an automatic two year warranty with an option to extend to five year warranty. I tell anyone I know who's buying a dishwasher to buy the extended warranty. It's worth the cost. You just never know what might happen if there's a dishwasher you really want and the warranty isn't so hot. You can also be strategic about where you buy. Ikea has a five year warranty. Costco has, I believe, a two year warranty. So I tell people to buy appliances there all the time.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay. Andrea, you've been here before, so you might not be surprised that before we wrap, we like to ask all our guests one final question. What's the last thing you've bought that you've really loved?

[Andrea Barnes]

It's actually the League of Kitchens cookbook, which Rachel Wharton, who's on the appliance team, was a co author on.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Ooh.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What makes it great?

[Andrea Barnes]

So it is. Well, from a geeky journalist perspective, it's awesome because she helped write recipes made by grandmas, basically. So she watched videos of people taking a pinch of something and figuring out exact, you know, when you try to recreate recipes. Yeah. So she spent months on this, like, at night, figuring out exactly what a pinch is, you know, Stop. Yeah, it's really awesome. And it's all women who aren't necessarily professional cooks per se, who teach at this school, League of Kitchens, and they're from all over the world. And the book is awesome. There's one chapter I'm on right now on eggs, and I can't wait to cook, like, every single thing in it. That's so fun. Yeah, it's a great book.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Great tip.

[Rosie Guerin]

I love that.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Andrea, thank you so much for joining us.

[Andrea Barnes]

Thank you for having me.

[Rosie Guerin]

Andrea, back again.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That was great. I love that. Andrea is, like, nerdy in the best possible way.

[Andrea Barnes]

Like, she goes deep so much.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

She goes in and looks at, like, patents to find, you know, her sources are like, yeah, it's great.

[Rosie Guerin]

Incredible. What are your takeaways from this conversation with her?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Mama was right. Don't run your dishwasher when you're about to leave the house. She's gonna love to hear that. Because I was ready to be like, you were wrong. That's just so crazy. You don't have to worry about it that much.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. My takeaway is that I sometimes have dirty spoons and bowls and things like that that are just not getting clean in my dishwasher. So I'm going to take a little bit more care, put the dirtiest stuff towards the middle of the rack. I'm gonna be a little bit more careful when I'm loading my spoons and forks and everything to make sure that those spray arms are actually gonna be able to have access to the dirtiest parts.

[Rosie Guerin]

I think on top of that, my takeaway is around detergent that if really you're not getting the clean that you need to be getting or you should be getting and you've tried to troubleshoot in other ways, you might need to switch detergents and try something else. And that the main active ingredient that you're looking for in these detergents that's actually really doing the trick is enzymes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, enzymes. And, you know, this is the bonus one. I think that if anyone doubts that they should not be rinsing their dishes, the counter argument is that you can actually damage your dishes if you're using enzymatic detergent. It, it could cause some damage.

[Rosie Guerin]

So the more you know.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yep.

[Rosie Guerin]

If you want to find out even more than this about Wirecutter's coverage, Andrea's reporting, or if you want to check out any of the products or tips Andrea recommended today, go to nytimes.com wirecutter or as always, you can find a link in the show notes. That is it. Kyra, Christine, see you next week.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

See ya.

[Andrea Barnes]

Bye.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And here's what's coming up next week on the Wirecutter Show.

[Josh Haner]

Pull ups are a great exercise. They're definitely not the easiest of exercises possible.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Some might say, I feel like it's the white whale. Make sure you're following the show on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it.

[Rosie Guerin]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Editing by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Matty Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Ba Itup and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Garrett. Thank you for listening.

[Andrea Barnes]

Good rocks are nylon. Sorry, now I'm laughing.

[Rosie Guerin]

Guys, we're grown adults.

[Andrea Barnes]

That's why it's funny.