Grill. Baby, Grill

Summary

The Wirecutter Show: Grill. Baby, Grill
Release Date: May 21, 2025
Hosts: Christine Cyr Clisset, Kyra Blackwell, Rosie Guerin
Guests: Leslie Stockton (Senior Kitchen Writer, Wirecutter), Sam Sifton (Assistant Managing Editor, New York Times)

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Introduction to the Episode

In the episode titled "Grill. Baby, Grill," hosts Christine Cyr Clisset and Kyra Blackwell, alongside producer Rosie Guerin, delve into the world of grilling. As summer approaches, the team provides listeners with expert advice on selecting the best grills, maintaining them, and mastering grilling techniques to elevate outdoor cooking experiences.

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Grill Testing with Leslie Stockton

Leslie Stockton, a senior kitchen writer at Wirecutter with over two decades of professional chef experience, shares her extensive knowledge on grill testing.

• Testing Environment: Leslie recounts a recent comprehensive grill test conducted in a rented backyard in Clinton Hill, Brooklyn. "We rented a backyard in Clinton Hill... You're covered in grease, you're sweating, there's meat. It's so much," she explains (04:31).

• Criteria for Evaluation:

  • Propane Grills: Leslie emphasizes the importance of a cast aluminum firebox for optimal heat reflection and resistance to corrosion. "You want a grill that doesn't flare up a lot... You want it to heat relatively evenly," she notes (06:08).
  • Performance: Consistent heating and minimal flare-ups are crucial for achieving perfect sear marks and flavorful results without excessive charring.
  • Top Recommendation: Weber grills emerged as the clear favorite due to their even heating and user-friendly design. "Weber has been our pick... It's the most user-friendly grill for your average home cook," Leslie states (07:28).

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Grill Maintenance Tips

Maintaining a grill is essential for longevity and safety. Leslie provides a step-by-step guide to effective grill cleaning:

1. Initial Cleaning:

   • "I turn on the grill, let it get hot, and then I scrape the grates with a wire brush," Leslie advises (08:01).
   • This process removes carbonized food debris, making it easier to clean.

2. Final Wipe-Down:

   • Use a damp rag to wipe away soot and residual grime. "Use tongs... Don't wipe a hot grill with a damp rag," she cautions (09:03).
   • Finish by oiling the grates with a paper towel dipped in vegetable oil to prevent sticking during cooking.

3. Deep Cleaning:

   • Leslie recommends a thorough cleaning twice during the grilling season and a final clean at season's end to prevent grease build-up and rodent infestations. "Getting rancid and rodents... don't want that grease just sitting there," she emphasizes (10:53).

4. Grill Brushes:

   • While traditional wire brushes are effective, Leslie suggests alternatives like the Grill Rescue Brush, which uses fire-retardant fabric to steam-clean grates without the risk of metal bristles contaminating food. "It acts like the bristles because it's got some kind of texture on it," she explains (11:40).

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Selecting Grill Tools

Choosing the right tools can significantly enhance the grilling experience. Leslie shares her top recommendations:

• Tongs: "Winco Restaurant Tongs. 12 inch... They're very inexpensive and they last a long time," Leslie recommends (14:06).

• Spatulas: The Mercer Hell's Handle Fish Spatula is praised for its versatility and durability. "It's perfect for almost anything... great on the grill," she asserts (15:26).

• Basting Brushes: Silicone brushes, particularly those by Oxo, are favored for their ease of cleaning and durability. "It's easy to clean again. You can throw it in the dishwasher," Leslie notes (16:06).

• Grill Baskets: Initially skeptical, Leslie now values grill baskets for their ability to cook small items like vegetables and shrimp without the hassle of skewers. "If you must skewer... grill baskets are superior," she concludes (16:29).

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Gas vs. Charcoal Grilling

The age-old debate between gas and charcoal grilling is addressed with balanced insights:

• Leslie’s Perspective:

  • Charcoal Grills: Preferred for the rich, smoky flavor they impart. "Cooking over fire... I love charcoal grilling," Leslie shares (20:03).
  • Gas Grills: Valued for their convenience and speed, especially during hot weather when keeping the kitchen cool is a priority. "I don't want to rely on a charcoal grill to fire it up in the middle of the week," she explains (20:46).

• Balanced Approach: Leslie suggests that while charcoal grills offer superior flavor, gas grills are ideal for everyday use due to their practicality. "It works, and it just frees you up," she adds (20:48).

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Grilling Tips for Novices (Sam Sifton's Advice)

Sam Sifton, co-founder of NYT Cooking and grilling enthusiast, provides guidance for those new to grilling:

• Understanding Grill Zones: Sam demystifies the concept of heat zones on a grill. "If you pour them off to the left side... you have a hot zone, a medium zone, and a cooler zone," he explains (25:45). This allows for versatile cooking techniques such as searing and slow-cooking simultaneously.

• Starting with Gas Grills: He recommends beginners start with gas grills to master the basics before exploring charcoal grilling. "The easiest way in is a gas grill because it's essential. It's just an outdoor stove," Sam advises (24:40).

• Practical Strategies: Emphasizing practice, Sam encourages regular use to build confidence and skill. "The more you do it, the more you're gonna figure it out," he states (27:22).

• Avoiding Fidgeting: Sam offers a practical tip for novices: "If you find yourself fidgeting around too much with stuff on the grill, then you're probably doing something wrong," he warns (28:19).

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Recipes Recommendations

Sam shares his favorite grilling recipes that balance effort with impressive results:

• Meat Options:

  • Pork Butt: Slow-smoked for hours to achieve tender, flavorful meat. "If you take the Times recipe for the pork butt... it's outrageously good," he enthuses (30:05).
  • Bluefish: Ideal for smoking, especially varieties like snapper bluefish that are oilier and lend themselves well to rich flavors (30:05).

• Non-Meat Options:

  • Vegetables: Corn is highlighted as a foolproof option. "Let it get a little caramelized, put some cool toppings on it," Sam suggests (31:12).
  • Tofu: When properly pressed and marinated, tofu can achieve a delicious sear and absorb sauces effectively. "It just sucks up the sauce deliciously," he notes (31:12).

• Special Techniques:

  • Plancha: Using a flat metal surface over the grill for cooking delicate items like fish, ensuring they don't stick to the grates. "The plancha is the perfect thing to cook fish on because it's not gonna stick to the grates," Sam explains (31:04).

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Hosting Tips and Beverage Recommendations

When hosting a barbecue, Sam emphasizes the importance of variety and moderation:

• Food Preparation:

  • Multiple Dishes: Serve quick-to-cook items like hot dogs alongside slower-cooking meats to keep guests satisfied while waiting. "Have some quickly cooked hot dogs or sausages... everybody can eat a couple and still wait for the ribs," he advises (33:35).

• Beverages:

  • Focus on Simplicity: Opt for a selection of cold beers and seltzers rather than a wide array of spirits. "Seeing spirits at a barbecue before dark, it's trouble," Sam recommends (34:44).
  • Non-Alcoholic Options: Include sodas and hard seltzers to cater to all guests. "My go-to beer at barbecues lately has been a non-alcoholic beer from Athletic," he adds (35:12).

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Key Takeaways

• Grill Selection: Weber grills are top-rated for their performance and user-friendliness.
• Maintenance: Regular cleaning, including scraping, wiping, and oiling grates, is essential for optimal grill performance and safety.
• Tools: Invest in quality tools like Winco tongs and Mercer fish spatulas to enhance your grilling experience.
• Technique: Understanding and utilizing grill zones can prevent overcooking and improve food quality.
• Recipes: Start with simple, high-reward recipes like grilled chicken thighs and corn on the cob to build confidence.
• Hosting: Balance variety in food offerings and keep beverages simple to ensure a pleasant gathering.

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Notable Quotes

• Leslie Stockton: "Weber has been our pick... It's the most user-friendly grill for your average home cook." (07:28)
• Leslie Stockton: "Grill baskets are superior [to skewers]." (16:29)
• Sam Sifton: "If you find yourself fidgeting around too much with stuff on the grill, then you're probably doing something wrong." (28:19)
• Sam Sifton: "Seeing spirits at a barbecue before dark, it's trouble." (34:44)

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For more detailed information on grills, maintenance tips, and delicious recipes, visit Wirecutter's website or explore NYT Cooking for exclusive grilling recipes curated by Sam Sifton.

Transcript

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[Kyra Blackwell]

What is the difference between a barbecue and a cookout?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, that's a whole episode. Oh, I think at a barbecue, you're actually gonna barbecue. You're gonna cook meat for a long time and serve it to a large number of people. And at a cookout, you know, Chad's gonna just do the hot dogs.

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm Rosie Garant, and you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Kyra Blackwell]

This episode is called Grill, Baby Grill.

[Rosie Guerin]

Hey, Kyra. Hey, Christine.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hello.

[Rosie Guerin]

Another Wednesday, another Wirecutter show.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Again, this has become a regular thing for us.

[Rosie Guerin]

Today we're gonna talk about grills and grilling.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Tis the season.

[Rosie Guerin]

Tis the season. Are you grilling people? I. I want to be aspirational.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Grill aspirational. I do not currently have an outdoor space that I can grill at, but when I'm somewhere where I can grill, I do grill. And on the site, we do have recommendations for gas grills, for charcoal grills. And I have got to tell y' all that it is kind of wild testing grills in New York City. I think we're going to get into that in this episode, but it is a massive task to. To figure out places that you can actually grill. We can't do it at our offices. There's no outdoor space to do it. Our landlord will not let us do it there. And so we've had to get very creative over the years.

[Rosie Guerin]

The kitchen team had to put together something wild.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, they really did. And we're going to get into that in a little bit.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I loved what they ended up doing, and I want to do it again. So first up today, we're talking with Leslie Stockton, who's a senior staff writer on the kitchen team, to talk to us about all of the unexpected things that she uses to cook and keep her grill clean. And then later, we're going to have Sam Sifton, who's an assistant managing editor at the New York Times and co founder of New York Times Cooking, to talk to us about some of the recipes that he's really excited to cook on his grill this summer. And, of course, his famous hosting tips for a Blowout cookout.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I am really looking forward to that.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sam is the best.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when we're back, we'll talk with Leslie Stockton about tips and tools for becoming a better grill cook. We'll be right back.

[Lori Leibovich]

Hi, this is Lori Leibovich, editor of. Well, at the New York Times. There's a lot of misinformation in the health and wellness space. But at the New York Times, no matter what the topic, we apply the same journalistic standards to everything we write about, whether it's the gut microbiome or how to get a good night's sleep, even if we're talking about something like is it bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach? Everything that our readers get when they dig into a well article has been vetted. Our reporters are consulting experts calling dozens of people doing the research. It can go on for months so that you can make great decisions about your physical health and your mental health. We take our reporting extra seriously because we know New York Times subscribers are counting on us. If you already subscribe, thank you. If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back. With us now is Leslie Stockton, who is a senior kitchen writer at the Kitchen team at Wirekind. And she's worked as a professional chef for over 20 years. And one of her very first jobs was working as a sous chef at a restaurant that cooked over a wood burning grill. And she had to do the maintenance for all of that, which is so impressive.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Leslie, I love that. Welcome back to the show.

[Leslie Stockton]

I love being here.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, Leslie, you've been testing grills and grill tools for Wirecutter for many years. And most recently, you finished this really huge grill test where we rented an entire brownstone in Brooklyn to test a bunch of grills to tell us a little bit about that.

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay. So first of all, I did start this coverage eight years ago in my backyard. So this time around, since I don't have that backyard anymore because living in New York can be perilous, we rented a backyard in Clinton Hill. And you're covered in grease, you're sweating, you're swapping out propane tanks. There's meat. It's so much.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And just to paint a picture, because I went to this house and checked it out, you had like over a dozen grills in this backyard, right?

[Leslie Stockton]

Grills and griddles, right?

[Rosie Guerin]

Yes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So you had, you had gas grills, you had griddles. Were you doing any charcoal?

[Leslie Stockton]

There was one charcoal grill in the backyard, which is our top pick. The Weber 22 inch kettle. I was using that cause I was testing griddle inserts for Weber grills, which.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Is just kind of like a flat piece of metal that you can cook.

[Leslie Stockton]

Pancakes on bacon, bacon and eggs, and French toast. You can use it as a plancha. Of course, that's what like the deli.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Guys use at the bodegas, right?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, M. And also, just for listeners who might not be aware, I mean, it is a really big deal to be able to test grills in a backyard. Like you mentioned earlier, the first time we did this was in your backyard. In first couple times it took like weeks and this time it took weeks also. So we spent like two weeks testing grills in this backyard, which is a huge, huge task.

[Rosie Guerin]

So when you're doing grilling testing, big picture, I know we're going to zoom into some of the specifics about tools and about setups. But big picture grill testing, what are some of the criteria you are using to judge grills?

[Leslie Stockton]

So for propane grills, what you're looking for is a cast aluminum firebox because that reflects heat the best. And aluminum is not corrosive the way steel is, so it won't succumb to the elements. You also want a grill that doesn't flare up a lot. Every grill's gonna flare up a little bit, but you just don't want a bunch of flare ups. You want it to heat relatively evenly. Now, with every single gas grill, the very front of the grates, like the part that's closest to you is always gonna be the coldest. That's just what it is. We can't do anything about it. But how cold is it up there and how hot is in the back corners? Do the grates give you a good sear? Does it get hot enough to give you a good sear and good color? Or does it get too hot where everything just comes out with like a layer of carbon? It has a lot to do with like user friendliness. So Weber has been our pick, and we're not shills for Weber. But the thing is about Weber is that it heats evenly. It has the fewest amount of flare ups, and I think it's the most user friendly grill for your average home cook.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So why would people be upset about that? I feel like Weber because all our.

[Leslie Stockton]

Picks are Weber, but that's because I.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Feel like I don't know Anything about a grill, But I tried to use a Weber grill last week, and it felt like I was using a stove. Like a gas burning stove.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. And you still get, like, a really good end result. You get great sear marks, you get great flavor, you get good searing. I've tested so many dang grills. Trust me on this one.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I like that. So, Leslie, what I really want to know is what is the easiest, simplest way to really level up your current grilling experience?

[Leslie Stockton]

The best way to do that is to spend some time really focusing on cleaning and oiling your grates in the beginning. Let me expand on that. So there are a couple of different schools of thought on this, but as someone who did work over a grill, what I do is I turn on the grill, I let it get hot, and then I come back and I scrape the grates with a wire brush. Now, I know this is controversial because people are like, but you can get a wire stuck in your soft palate. There are more steps to this. You scrape those grates clean, you get all the food debris from the last cook off. By the time the grill is hot, they have turned to carbon. So they're really easy to get off. Now, next you. You go over it with a damp rag. And when you look at that rag, it's gonna be sooty. That would have been on your food. Right. Use tongs. Don't wipe a hot grill with a damp rag.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And your hands.

[Leslie Stockton]

And your hands.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's not gonna feel good.

[Leslie Stockton]

Use tongs. And then last step with a paper towel with some vegetable oil on it. Oil those grates. Now it is ready to cook.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And that's what you should be doing every time before you grill.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Right? Yes. Cause I know some people will leave their grill on for a. After they're done.

[Rosie Guerin]

Really?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

To, like, burn off any food.

[Leslie Stockton]

Great as a rodent deterrent.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, okay, good. Well, that's always good. What about cleaning the rest of your grill? I was actually at a friend's house a couple summers ago, and they hadn't cleaned their grill in a couple years. They have a propane grill and they had a grease fire and they had to put it out with a fire extinguisher.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, that happens.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

How important is it to clean your grill and, like, deeper clean and how often?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, so let's say you're going to grill and you turn it on to heat it up, and you come back and you see some smoke coming out of the firebox. And what I mean by coming out of the firebox is smoke is coming out from underneath the flame ports. That's when I get, I don't know, is it a spackle knife or a paint scrape? You know, like one of those big spatulas that people used to fill holes with walls with? Spackle. Spackle knife.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like a metal version of that?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, a metal version of that. And make note, like after this grill cools down, I'm going to remove the grates, take the flame port protectors off, and I'm going to get in there with this metal spackle knife and I'm going to just scrape all the grease and crud out from the bottom of the firebox, direct it toward the grease trap and change out that grease trap, wash it, whatever. So I would say once in the middle of grilling season and then definitely.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

At the end because you don't want that grease just sitting there all winter.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. Getting rancid and rodents.

[Kyra Blackwell]

How can you tell if there isn't like a live rat just crawling around.

[Leslie Stockton]

In your grill droppings?

[Kyra Blackwell]

How do you know the difference between like charred bits of food and I.

[Leslie Stockton]

Mean, look, if you're that paranoid, just get in there with some like simple green and a scrub and let it burn off for a solid 20 to 30 minutes.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

So back to the grill brush. That is a hot topic. You mentioned the sort of the metal bristles can get into food. It can get stuck in your body. Is that what you actually recommend to clean the grill?

[Leslie Stockton]

We do. We also have a recommendation for. Oh gosh. It's called the grill rescue brush and it's kind of cool. It's like a plastic red handle and it's made with this fire retardant fabric that like firefighters use for something and you get it wet and like while the grill is hot, it just kind of like steam cleans the grates.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So you don't need like the bristles. It acts like the bristles cause it's got some kind of texture on it.

[Leslie Stockton]

And the wipe of the damp rag afterwards, it works pretty well. Does it give you like a really good scrape like a wire brush? No.

[Rosie Guerin]

Two follow up questions. Why are you not worried about the metal bristles?

[Leslie Stockton]

I am not worried about the metal bristles because I'm going over it with that damp rag that picks up soot and everything else off of the top of those crates. And then I'm going over it again with an oiled paper towel. And so that's two wipes. When you hear about those horror stories of like, you know, my five year old got a wire bristle Stuck in their soft palate. They didn't wipe it afterwards. And that's always my first question. Did they wipe down the grates? They didn't wipe down the grates. Cause if they did, this would not be a story.

[Rosie Guerin]

Got it. And then my second question is, I admittedly know exactly nothing about grilling, but I have heard that some people opt to use, like, an onion. Is that a thing? Is that a myth?

[Leslie Stockton]

No, it's not a myth. I honestly just use a balled up foil ball. The onion has one. It's a waste of an onion.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. Grill that onion, eat that onion.

[Leslie Stockton]

Exactly two. It's gonna deposit sugar, so you're not really cleaning it. Does that make any sense?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to me.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. It just doesn't sit right with me.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I want to talk a little bit about tools, and I know that there's a pretty wide span of quality for. For grill tools. You know, I think most people probably have like, a grill kit that they, you know, maybe they got it as a gift or it came with their grill. It's got a, you know, set of tongs and a, you know, a spatula. Is this what you would recommend for people? Or are there other things or unexpected tools that you think people should really know about?

[Leslie Stockton]

I find those kits, while aesthetically pleasing, are not great. They're heavy. The tongs are always, like, difficult to use.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, they don't. They never, like, squeeze.

[Rosie Guerin]

Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I don't know if you noticed, they don't spring back very well. They don't.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, they spring back to, like, two and a half inches.

[Rosie Guerin]

It makes me feel like a child holding the tongs because they're so massive and you can't quite.

[Leslie Stockton]

You have to use two hands, I think.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, they're supposed to be man tongs.

[Leslie Stockton]

Man tongs. And I always find those spatulas to be awkward to use. Again, they're absurdly long. What I like to use. If we're talking about tongs, Winco Restaurant Tongs. 12 inch.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

They're cheap. They're just the metal kind.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right, the metal kind. We're not even talking about any, like, silicone grips or, you know, the metal tongs you get at the restaurant supply store or on Amazon. And they're very inexpensive and they last a long time, and they're dishwasher safe. I recommend winko tongs in many sizes. If we're talking spatulas, there's a very large fish spatula made by Mercer, and it's called Hell's handle. So if you Want something manly? There it is.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What's a fish spatula? What's the fish?

[Leslie Stockton]

A fish spatula is. It's long and it flares out towards the. You know, it tapers towards the handle, and it flares out as it goes out. It's angled at the end and it's slotted. So it's just kind of the perfect spatula for almost anything, any type of flipping. I say almost because it's not great for a griddle, but it's great in the kitchen. It's great on the grill. I love a fish spatula.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This is. It's come up before, I think. Marilyn, our kitchen senior editor, also loves a fish spatula. Are there any other beyond tongs and the spatula? What else would you recommend for a grill?

[Leslie Stockton]

Get yourself a basting brush. I know we recommend a silicone brush, and the one we recommend, I think, is the only one I will tolerate. I think it's oxo. It's easy to clean again. You can throw it in the dishwasher.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about. My mom has a grill basket. She swears by it.

[Leslie Stockton]

Oh, grill baskets. I was such a hater for a very long time, but I'm into it now.

[Rosie Guerin]

What is a grill basket?

[Leslie Stockton]

So a grill basket is a steel perforated square basket with handles, and you just put it on your grill, and you can grill, cut up vegetables. Anything that's small, like shrimp. Anything that you don't wanna put on a skewer, you can do in a grill basket. I don't know about y' all, but I think skewers are kind of a pain in the butt. What?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

1,000%.

[Leslie Stockton]

Thank you.

[Rosie Guerin]

What was the time to shove something.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

On a skewer and soak the skewers? If you're using the wood ones.

[Leslie Stockton]

But also things don't cook at the same rate. And so people put, like, eggplant and squash. And what are other popular things to put on a vegetable spoon, Bell pepper, onions. And then every single time that eggplant is spongy and undercooked. Look, I am not subtweeting anyone here. That is just how it goes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And so you would recommend putting all the things you would put on a skewer into a grill basket instead?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes. If you must skewer. If you must put all the same thing on one skewer.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All the chicken.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All the pineapple.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Keep it homogenous.

[Leslie Stockton]

All the. Yeah. And then, like, people can just get what they want off the skewer and keep it pushing.

[Rosie Guerin]

Leslie, so much good information here. About how to really sort of level up your backyard grill. What I'm taking away most of all is clean it deep, clean at the end of the season, and then really clean for maintenance. That process you mentioned whereby you're scrubbing it down with the metal bristles, you're taking a wet cloth to it, and then you're taking a lightly oiled paper towel to it, and that's going to really help kind of level up the performance of your grill. If you're using it on any kind.

[Leslie Stockton]

Of regular basis, you should not have any or very few problems with food sticking to your grates if you do that process.

[Rosie Guerin]

The other takeaway, I think, is you can go for those prepackaged grill kits if you want your tools, or you can make your own and maybe get a fish spatula, maybe get a grill basket, play around.

[Leslie Stockton]

I honestly think you'll save some money, too.

[Rosie Guerin]

And save some money. Why do people grill?

[Leslie Stockton]

Let me tell you why we grilled when I was a kid and why I continued to grill as adult is because I grew up in Houston, and it's hot. You're fighting for your life, cooling down your house in July, August, September. Your AC unit is working overtime. And so when you can turn on the heat source outside and then keep your kitchen cool, that's everything.

[Rosie Guerin]

So that's the practical reason. What's the romantic reason?

[Leslie Stockton]

Cooking over fire? I don't. Cosplaying struggle.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Is it like.

[Rosie Guerin]

Is it tapping into. Is it tapping into the hunter gatherer?

[Leslie Stockton]

I think so. I just think it's like a different way of cooking. It's like we don't braise everything, we don't fry everything, we don't bake everything. It's like sometimes you wanna switch it up.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So there seems to be this eternal debate around the grilling community about gas versus charcoal. After years of your experience, Leslie, what is your take? Are you team gas or team charcoal?

[Leslie Stockton]

Let me tell you something. These charcoal folks have no leg to stand on, because I cooked over mesquite wood for years in this restaurant. And that is a whole other thing. Like, if you want flav, start with wood. I find that mostly men are resistant to propane grills because to them, that's kind of like the outdoor cooking version of getting a minivan. And it's not sexy. It's way too practical. But another thing I notice is that when men finally do get the minivan, they love the minivan.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I will attest to this. We rented a minivan this summer, and.

[Leslie Stockton]

My husband totally loved it so it's.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Not sexy, but it works.

[Leslie Stockton]

It works, and it just frees you up. I love charcoal grilling. I do. But do I just wanna rely on a charcoal grill to fire it up in the middle of the week because it's too hot to cook in my kitchen and, you know, yada, yada, yada?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

No.

[Leslie Stockton]

I don't wanna start that chimney starter full of coals just so I can, like, cook myself some dinner really quick. That's why the propane grill is awesome.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Leslie, it is always a pleasure to have you on the show. We wanna have you back soon. We are going to take a quick break, and when we're back, we're gonna talk with Sam's Sifton, who is the founder of New York Times Cooking, and he is going to talk about how to dial in your grilling, what summer recipes you might want to do, and the burning question that I think all of us want to know. How much booze should you serve at your summer barbecue?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, he had a hot take about Thanksgiving. So.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So we'll.

[Leslie Stockton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Kevin Roos]

I'm Kevin Roos. I'm a tech columnist at the New York Times. I'm Casey Noon from Platformer. We're the hosts of Hard Fork. Every week, we break down the biggest tech news talk with industry players in Silicon Valley and answer your most pressing questions about the future.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This week, Ed Helms from the Office comes to our office to talk about.

[Kevin Roos]

His new book and answer your hard questions about tech.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It feels like cigarettes in the 90s, right? Everybody knows, but, like, come on, we're still doing it.

[Kevin Roos]

You can find that conversation on this week's episode of Hard Fork. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back. We're here in the studio with New York Times assistant managing editor, co founder of New York Times cooking and grill enthusiast Sam Sifton.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Sam, welcome back to the show.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

It's so great to have you. So you're basically an honorary wirecutter. Stauffer, at this point, you have tested grills with us. I think the first time we tested Grylls, almost eight years ago, you joined us in the backyard of our writer Leslie Stockton's backyard, and you helped us test a bunch of Grylls. So I gotta know, are you team charcoal or team gas grill?

I'm team grill.

You're just team grill.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's basically what she said.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I just wanna be clear about something. I have a lot of grills.

Oh, really?

I have.

[Rosie Guerin]

What is A lot of girls.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah. How many?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Listen, I have a gas grill because I think a gas grill is an incredibly useful tool. It's my outdoor kitchen all summer long, and I love it. I love it. I have a charcoal grill. Cause sometimes you want that kind of heat, you want that kind of char, that kind of flavor. I have other grills that I don't want to get into. It just marks me as a lunatic. But I am not on team Charcoal or team Propane. I'm on team Grill.

Okay.

[Rosie Guerin]

I am not a griller. Who is the person? Who is this person who grills? Is this, like. Is this the grill guy? Yeah. Is it primordial? Like, what is it about grill? Is it meat and fire? Why are we doing it?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This is my culture.

[Rosie Guerin]

Tell me. Talk to me. Who are you?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mean, look, there's big dad energy to it, for sure. There is something about being outside. For me in particular, I like cooking outside. I like the inventiveness that comes along with it. The sort of experimentation that leads to big reveals. And I just enjoy it. I guess it is. It's Big dad energy, man.

[Rosie Guerin]

Big dad energy. So not team Gas, not team Charcoal. You're team grill. What does that mean for you? I mean, not everyone obviously is going to be able to have multiple grills. So if someone's trying to get into it, what are you guiding them toward?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think that the easiest way in is a gas grill because it's essential. It's just an outdoor stove. Right. You're not going to get a great steak out of it. But there are a lot of things that you can do on a gas grill that'll give you the fundamentals that you can transfer to live fire. As for live fire, if you're charcoal curious, head to your local park where there's often grills there. You can cook on them and learn. Like, is this for me? Do I like this? Do I want to do more with this? If you are moved to purchase a charcoal grill first, and obviously Wirecutter recommends you get the Weber kettle grill, which we knew going into the testing was going to win. It's superior product.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's just a superior product. Get the one we recommend, the big one. Don't get the little one that looks like a football helmet. That's not gonna help you in any regard.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Sam, I know that you've written about this in your newsletter, but I kind of want to talk a little bit about understanding the zones on a grill.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Sure.

[Kyra Blackwell]

As somebody who also isn't really a griller, that seems pretty intimidating to me, just knowing where to put things and when to take it off. What exactly does it mean to have zones in your grill?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, people freak out. I don't get it. And do you freak out like when you have zones with an air conditioner? Nobody's like, this room is cool, this room is cooler. This room is cold. Those are zones. Ooh, I'm freaked out. So let's start with a charcoal grill. Cause that's where the zone issue becomes most complicated. When you're lighting the fire at the very beginning of the process, when you dump that charcoal out, if you put it right in the middle and then kind of push it out and everything's equal at the bottom of the grill, you have no zones. It's all uniform. However, if you pour them off, I'm right handed, so I usually pour them off to the left side. And it's sort of mounded on the left side and there's nothing on the right side. Now you have a hot zone, which is right above where the top of the mound is a kind of medium zone where it's slightly farther away and a cooler zone off to, to the right where there are no coals at all. And I can put a chicken in that so called cool zone. Put the top on the Weber and let convection heat do its work. I got a nice smoke roasted chicken in about, you know, an hour. Zones.

There we go. The zones. The zones.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Don't be scared.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, if somebody just feels kind of intimidated and like they haven't had a lot of wins on the grill.

Yep.

What do you suggest they do? Like, obviously practice makes perfect, but, but do you have any strategies for just becoming better at grilling in general?

Yeah, grill.

Yeah, practice.

Practice. I mean, honestly, like, the more you do it, the more you're gonna figure it out. Commit to the grill. You bought a grill, you spent the money on the wire cutter pick for the best grill. Now you have it, now you gotta use it. And are you gonna have some losses? Yes, you are. I remember once cooking for a dinner party on a grill that was not my own, and I wasn't. And I thought that the, the burner on the left was off. And that's where I had the chickens. And I was kind of smoking them. I came back and that burner was actually on and my chickens were incinerated. I threw them in the trash and made a vegeta, you know, grilled some more vegetables and we had a big vegetarian feast. And nobody missed the chicken because I never told them that they were getting chicken in the first place.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Well, I got some advice just as a novice. If you. If I find myself fidgeting around too much with stuff on the grill, then I'm probably doing something wrong.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, you're definitely. Why are you touching that? Stop touching that. Yeah. Let's say I have a boneless. Skinless or. No, I'll give it skin. Let's say we have a boneless. Eh. Why am I taking the bone out? We have a chicken thigh. Okay. I've salted it. There's a little oil on there. Cause I don't want it to stick to the grate. And I put it down on the medium zone. And I'm not gonna touc. I need enough fat to render that. It's gonna release from the grate. If you go in there too soon and pick it up, it's sticking to the grate. It's ripping, and I'm losing this delicious skin that I want to render out and have be a crisp exterior. So don't touch too much.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But what if it's charring too much in the medium?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Then move it for sure.

[Rosie Guerin]

Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like, you know what I mean? Like, touch for a reason.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Don't touch for no reason. Don't touch for nervous. You know, get a fidget spinner if that's what you need, but get a drink.

Help somebody else in the kitchen.

Yeah. Be careful on the drinks.

[Rosie Guerin]

We're going to get to the drink in just a second. Before that, what are some of the recipes that you think in terms of input versus outsized payoff? What are you thinking?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mentioned chicken thighs before. I think chicken thighs are a really, really good protein for the grill. There's a lot of fat on them. They don't dry out the way chicken breasts often do for the big boy proteins. Your hams, your pulled porks and stuff, your briskets, your beef ribs. Like, you should feel pretty confident before you tackle those.

These are advanced.

Yeah. That's not for freshmen.

Okay. Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Is fish for freshmen?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, that's a great question. So one of the extras that I have applied to my gas grill, and this is really easily done, is I have a piece of steel that can go over the grill and create this kind of like, create. It is a flat metal surface on which I can cook. The plancha is the perfect thing to cook fish on because it's not gonna stick to the grates. You can get plenty of, you know, oil on there or grease or fat or whatever you want for your flavor. You're gonna get some taste of smoke because you can do this on a charcoal grill as well. That's the best way to cook fish the first few times until you kind of got it figured out like a whole fish say. But man, it's great with scallops, with shrimp, nothing's falling through the grates.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sam, what's your recommendation for someone who is trying to cook non meat options and maybe wants to impress a little bit?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All the vegetables are available to you this summer and they all do really well on the grill. Even tomatoes do well on the grill. But if you want fast track to success, get corn on there, let it get a little caramelized, put some cool toppings on it. You'll do great. Another great thing on the grill I find is tofu. If you, if you press it for a while and get as much liquid as you can out of it, planks up pretty nicely and can kind of do well on the grill. Especially if you don't move it too quickly, let it develop a sear and then flip it over and then get it into a sauce. It just sucks up the sauce deliciously. You don't need meat to grill.

That's right.

But it helps.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Sam, what are some recipes that you're excited to try this summer on the grill?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, I am gonna to attack some of the kind of larger format proteins, a pork butt on the grill, slowly smoke roasted for hours and hours. If you take the Times recipe for the balsam that used to be served at Momofuku here in New York and do that in a charcoal grill or in a gas grill with a smoker tube attached, it's already outrageously good and now it's like, like 3x outrageously good. So I'll do that a bunch. I'll probably smoke a lot of bluefish. I fish a lot. So we pick up these little snapper bluefish. Bit darker and some would say oilier. I think that oil lends itself particularly well to smoking. On the gas grill. I use a smoke tube, this perforated tube filled with wood pellets. I love doing that on the charcoal grill. I'm getting a moderate amount of smoke just from the charcoal briquette. But when I'm being an advanced guy, I'm not using charcoal. I'm cooking over wood. So my Weber is now filled with wood and I'm letting that cook down into coals. And you get some really good smoke flavor from that.

[Kyra Blackwell]

How long does that take?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Are you asking for a friend? Are you asking for my wife?

[Rosie Guerin]

We're hosting A barbecue this summer. Let's say we're gonna bring out the grill or the grills. What are your best tips for hosting?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I know I'm gonna be serving some long roasted meat. We're gonna have these ribs are coming or whatever. And so I want a lot of other things there that people can munch on while we're waiting for those ribs to come off. They don't need to be hot. But in contrast to what we do at Thanksgiving where we kind of keep them hungry until the last minute, I really, really like to have some quickly cooked hot dogs or brats or sausages of some kind that I can just get out there. Everybody can eat a couple hot dogs and still grind some ribs when they're ready in November.

When you joined us to talk about Thanksgiving, you. You shared your guidance about how much alcohol to have on hand at a Thanksgiving dinner. And I believe it was something like two bottles of wine per guest plus some spirits. I'm wondering what your guidance is for grilling.

I want to dial that way back. The reason why I ask for so much alcohol at Thanksgiving is because you might need it.

Yeah.

At a barbecue. I don't think you do. Seeing spirits at a barbecue before dark, it's trouble. There's trouble. There's trouble. So you want. I think just, you know, you want a bunch of cold beer and some seltzers or hard seltzers or soda pop or whatever it is that you're interested in. I have to say, my go to beer at barbecues lately has been na beer from a company called Athletic.

Oh, yeah.

Athletic makes a really killer na.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sam Sifton, thank you so much.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Thank you for having me, as always. Thank you. Thanks.

All right, you guys.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sam, another all star episode.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Another all Star episode. Leslie. Sam, I learned so much about grilling.

[Rosie Guerin]

Today for something I've had almost next to zero interest in. I am intrigued.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Are you intrigued enough to go down to Home Depot this weekend and get yourself a grill hard?

[Rosie Guerin]

No. But I will say perhaps one time this summer, I will ask to grill at someone's house if they'll let me.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's a big step forward.

[Rosie Guerin]

And. Well, one of my takeaways is what Sam talked about in terms of moving the food. Don't move the food.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah. Mine is also kind of related to that. I think the reason that I was so fidgety over the grill previously is because I didn't understand the zoning properly. I would just turn on all the burners so the grill would just be way too hot. But now I know that you can turn on one side and then you have a hot medium and then cool, and then your food won't burn and you won't be frantically moving it around.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's right. You've got options on that grill.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think my little party trick for the summer when I'm at my mom's house where she has a grill or at a friend's house with a grill, is I'm gonna go out and clean the grill. As long as it's not rude to the person that's grilling. Yeah. I'm gonna scrub it down with the brush, I'm gonna take the tongs and I'm gonna wipe it down with the. With the wet cloth. And then I'm gonna oil that baby afterwards. And if I ever am in a situation again where I have a grill personally, I'm gonna make sure and keep it clean because I think that's something people oftentimes overlook.

[Rosie Guerin]

I love it. If you wanna find out more about Wirecutters coverage of grills, if you wanna see footage of the team at the grill house, or if you wanna check out the process we recommended today, check out our Instagram, check out our website, and of course, you can peruse any and all of the brilliant Sam Sifton's grill recipes at NYT Cooking. That's it for us. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Bye.

[Rosie Guerin]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Ba Itup and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. Thank you for listening. Another grill tool in your proverbial basket, huh? Christine? What do you think of that?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Wait, sorry. What? I'm losing the thread. I'm sorry.

[Leslie Stockton]

Wait, what?

[Rosie Guerin]

It was a joke.