How to Ace Thanksgiving

Summary

The Wirecutter Show: How to Ace Thanksgiving

Introduction

In the November 13, 2024 episode of The Wirecutter Show, hosted by Christine Cyr Clisset, Kyra Blackwell, and Rosie Guerin, the team dives into the art of hosting a flawless Thanksgiving. As Thanksgiving approaches, the hosts share personal anecdotes about hosting experiences and set the stage for insightful discussions with expert guests Sam Sifton, the founding editor of New York Times Cooking, and Leslie Stockton, a seasoned Wirecutter kitchen writer.

Personal Hosting Experiences

Rosie Guerin opens up about her first year hosting Thanksgiving, transitioning from childhood traditions at her uncle Pepe's house to creating new ones with her family. Kyra Blackwell contrasts this by describing her experience of assisting her parents in hosting large gatherings, accommodating 15 to 20 people annually in Washington D.C. Christine Cyr Clisset shares her habit of attending Friendsgiving events instead of hosting, highlighting the diverse ways people celebrate the holiday.

Guest Spotlight: Sam Sifton

At [06:03], Sam Sifton joins the conversation, bringing a wealth of experience from his role at New York Times Cooking. He recounts memorable Thanksgivings, including the poignant 2020 lockdown celebration with his immediate family, emphasizing the joy of a spacious spread for fewer guests. Reflecting on teaching his children Thanksgiving traditions, Sam shares his firm stance on certain aspects of the meal:

• No Salads at Thanksgiving: At [08:21], Sam humorously declares, “There’s no place for salad at a Thanksgiving meal. What are you doing?” He believes salads detract from the traditional focus on turkey and hearty sides.
• Turkey as the Star: Emphasizing the importance of turkey, Sam states, “There’s going to be a turkey. No chicken, no ham for you. It’s got to be turkey” ([09:13]). He advocates for turkey as the symbolic centerpiece of the meal, reserving other proteins like ham for different occasions.

Preparation Strategies

Sam outlines a strategic approach to Thanksgiving prep:

• Early Planning: At [09:47], he advises starting preparations weeks in advance, securing non-perishable items early and procuring turkeys the weekend before.
• Dual Turkey Strategy: To accommodate unexpected guests, Sam recommends purchasing two turkeys. Additionally, he suggests roasting turkey thighs ahead of time to create a versatile, slow-cooked "turkey a la king" mixture, ready to supplement the main dish if needed ([10:33]).
• Simplifying Recipes: Encouraging simplicity, Sam advises first-time cooks to avoid complex recipes on Thanksgiving Day. Instead, he recommends rehearsing key dishes like mashed potatoes beforehand to ensure confidence and reduce stress ([20:04]).

Essential Kitchen Gear with Leslie Stockton

Following Sam’s insights, Leslie Stockton joins the discussion at [29:24] to demystify the necessary kitchen tools for a successful Thanksgiving:

• Must-Haves:
  • Roasting Pan: Essential for evenly cooking the turkey. Leslie recommends both store-bought aluminum pans and high-quality reusable options ([31:29]).
  • Sharp Knife: A reliable chef’s knife suffices for carving, eliminating the need for specialized electric carving tools ([32:21]).
  • Meat Thermometer: Emphasizing safety and perfect doneness, Leslie advocates for an instant-read thermometer to ensure the turkey reaches an internal temperature of 165°F ([33:26]).
• Helpful Tips:
  • Transferring the Turkey: Leslie shares a practical method for moving a roasted turkey from the pan to the cutting board using tongs and a large spatula, ensuring juices are preserved for gravy ([37:13]).
  • Avoiding Spatchcocking: Despite its benefits for even cooking, Leslie advises against spatchcocking due to the difficulty of the process with turkeys compared to chickens ([35:16]).

Avoiding Unnecessary Tools

Leslie also discusses tools that are often deemed essential but are actually unnecessary:

• Turkey Baster: She dismisses the need for a baster, explaining that it can hinder achieving crispy skin by re-wetting it ([36:39]).
• Electric Carving Knives: A simple, sharp knife is more than sufficient for carving the turkey, making electric options redundant ([36:39]).

Enhancing the Experience

Sam shares unique traditions to enhance the Thanksgiving experience:

• Pre-Meal Socializing: At [12:50], he describes serving oysters and Prosecco before the main meal. This provides guests with a light, enjoyable activity that keeps them occupied and enhances their anticipation for the feast.
• Continued Gravy Warmth: Keeping turkey stock simmering on the stove throughout the day not only adds a delightful aroma but also serves a practical purpose by moistening the turkey before serving ([17:29]).

Cleanup Etiquette

Addressing the inevitable post-meal cleanup, Sam emphasizes the importance of cleaning as you go to maintain an organized kitchen and reduce end-of-event stress ([24:12]). He advises hosts to stay flexible, stepping up to clean when necessary while understanding that guests may prefer to handle different tasks.

Favorite Side Dish

When asked about his favorite side dish, Sam highlights a sentimental recipe from his father: bacon, Brussels sprouts, and heavy cream. This dish not only embodies the flavors of Thanksgiving but also serves as a heartfelt connection to his late father and his family’s culinary traditions ([26:06]).

Final Takeaways

As the episode concludes, the hosts reflect on the valuable tips shared by Sam and Leslie:

• Start Early: Begin shopping and prepping well in advance to alleviate last-minute stress ([40:49]).
• Keep It Simple: Focus on tried-and-true recipes rather than experimenting with new dishes on the day ([41:02]).
• Essential Tools: Invest in key kitchen tools like a roasting pan, sharp knife, and meat thermometer while avoiding unnecessary gadgets ([39:56]).

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt message encouraging listeners to embrace simplicity and enjoy the festive spirit of Thanksgiving. The hosts thank their guests, Sam Sifton and Leslie Stockton, for their invaluable insights and wish everyone a joyful holiday season.

Notable Quotes

• Sam Sifton on Avoiding Salads ([08:21]): “There’s no place for salad at a Thanksgiving meal. What are you doing?”
• Sam Sifton on Planning Ahead ([09:47]): “You want to be able to stage things. You don’t want to have to shop on Wednesday night for everything.”
• Leslie Stockton on Necessary Tools ([32:23]): “I cut up my entire turkey with Wirecutter’s pick, the Mac MTH80.”
• Sam Sifton on Cleaning as You Go ([24:33]): “I think it’s always a good idea to have turkey stock on the stove all day long. It makes the house smell nice.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Wirecutter Show serves as an essential guide for anyone looking to host a stress-free and memorable Thanksgiving. With expert advice on preparation, equipment, and traditions, listeners are well-equipped to create their own family traditions and enjoy the holiday to the fullest.

Transcript

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[Christine Cyrclassette]

From the New York Times, you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Hey, everyone, it's the Wirecutter Show. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from the New York Times.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Each week we bring you expert advice from Our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better. Better.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This episode of the Wirecutter show is called how to Ace Thanksgiving.

[Rosie Guerin]

This is my first year hosting Thanksgiving.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome to the club.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm so psyched. We used to go to my meme and Pepe's house as kids, but now that we live farther away, my wife and I and our kids are developing some of our own traditions.

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's a big step and it's kind of nerve wracking. Since this is your first time, I'm pumped. Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Honestly, I've never hosted Thanksgiving. I've lived on the East coast for 20 years and so I usually am at friendsgiving and I'm just bringing things to friends houses.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that too.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I come from a really big family, so usually every Thanksgiving I will help my parents host at their house down in D.C. and it's probably like 15 to 20 people every year. So it's kind of like a coordinated event at the Blackwell house.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's intense.

[Rosie Guerin]

Well, doing my own thing this year, being in the driver's seat means I have to think about all of the things, all of the things one could possibly need to do, have and prepare to host a holiday event, particularly one like Thanksgiving, where there are lots of expectations. What are the traditions? What are we doing like we did last year? And lots of opinions on maybe how things ought to be cooked or tasted or prepared.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I mean, I recommended that we skip both sweet potato recipes and they almost rioted.

[Rosie Guerin]

You were almost excommunicated. I mean, I'm worried that we don't have the right gear. It feels like a lot to think through and I obviously want to nail it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, there is a lot of gear that you are told that you need to have, and some of it you really do need to have and some you don't. But, you know, we're so lucky. We work in a place where we have people that we can ask almost any question of. And that's not just at Wirecutter. We work at the illustrious New York Times company, so we, we can kind of reach out far and wide. And this episode we're going to bring on our first guest is going to be Sam Sifton. He is the founding editor of New York Times Cooking, who has literally written the book Thanksgiving. He'll tell us all of his best in class hosting tips. Some are more controversial than others, and he's going to share how to make this holiday less stressful and more enjoyable.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And then later, we're going to have on Leslie Stockton, who is a longtime Wirecutter kitchen writer who has cooked over a hundred turkeys. That's basically a century worth of turkeys. She's reviewed roasting pans, meat thermometers, chef's knives, skillets, and other gear you're probably going to want to use at Thanksgiving. And she's just going to walk us through what you absolutely need, what you really don't, and the things that are, you know, nice but not necessary to make a great Thanksgiving meal.

[Rosie Guerin]

I promise I won't embarrass you when Sam Sifton comes in the room, but honestly, I have learned so much, so much about cooking from him and Leslie. I am just a massive fan and she's an absolute gem. I am so excited for this episode. I've got lots of learning to do.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All right, let's dive in after the break. Sam's best advice for acing your Thanksgiving. We'll be right back.

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[Rosie Guerin]

What I like about the New York.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Times app is how much variety it gives me.

[Rosie Guerin]

I start my day with a cup.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Of coffee and wordle and connections, which is all in the New York Times app.

[Sam Sifton]

It's well organized.

[Leslie Stockton]

It's multimedia.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I can also save my articles easily in this area.

[Leslie Stockton]

I can add politics or Paul Krugman for Jamal Bouwie.

[Sam Sifton]

I like him. I like that the cooking tab on.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Top is really easily accessible.

[Sam Sifton]

So if I'm on my way home.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And I'm just thinking, oh, what am I going to make for dinner?

[Sam Sifton]

I'll just quickly go on to cooking and say, oh, I've got this in my pantry.

[Leslie Stockton]

The photos are just phenomenal.

[Sam Sifton]

I have my saved articles, my entire history, which is actually very interesting.

[Leslie Stockton]

I'm just scrolling through the home tab.

[Sam Sifton]

There's already so much stuff.

[Leslie Stockton]

I'm like, oh, interesting.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I spent a lot of time doing Wirecutter. I like that it's just right there.

[Leslie Stockton]

I loved how much content it exposed me to things that I never would have thought to turn to a news.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

App for the New York Times app. All the times all in one place.

[Leslie Stockton]

Download it [e-mail] app.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter show. We are so excited to welcome Sam Sifton to the show. Sam is an assistant managing editor of the New York Times and the founding editor of New York Times Cooking, and I think it's fair to say, a Thanksgiving expert. His 2012 book, the how to Cook it well, is full of recipes and anecdotes and advice for how to host a great Thanksgiving.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Sam, we are so honored to have you on the Wirecutter show. Welcome.

[Sam Sifton]

I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

You have cooked so many Thanksgiving meals. Can you tell us about the most memorable Thanksgiving that you can think of? Who was there and what did you serve?

[Sam Sifton]

So I have cooked a lot of Thanksgivings and most of them really large scale. Like a lot of people, up to 30, 35 people. And with 30, 35 people, you're just hoping to survive. You know, there can be amazing things or terrible things that happen. And I can remember specific emotional moments with my mom in her last year at Thanksgiving with a lot of people that was sort of great. Can remember my little goddaughter stabbing herself accidentally with an oyster knife and having to go to the er.

[Kyra Blackwell]

She lived.

[Sam Sifton]

She lived. She's fine. To be very clear, she's fine. She writes with the other hand. No, she's dark. She's fine. And she's back to opening oysters. And that's great. So I can remember these sort of wonderful, specific instances. But, like, to really answer your question, I have to go to Thanksgiving 2020 when we were in lockdown. And for the first time in over 20 years, it was a small Thanksgiving. It was just me, my wife, my two kids. But it was really joyful to have the full spread to cook all day for just four people with lots of sides. The kids made pies, tons of gravy for it. It was just really, really nice. And to have this tiny little dollhouse table with the family all around it and none of our friends and relatives who are usually there was bittersweet, but it was also sort of fantastic. My kids were in the process of going off to college and senior year in high school and it was like we were coming to an end of something. And selfishly, I felt like we were stealing time back with them. And that was a pretty special Thanksgiving.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's beautiful.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's really special about that.

[Rosie Guerin]

What were the first Thanksgiving related things you taught your kids how to cook?

[Sam Sifton]

Well, I think I taught them more principles than actual recipes. Like for instance, there's no place for salad at a Thanksgiving meal. What are you doing?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's so controversial. How dare you?

[Sam Sifton]

What are you doing?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Because it's too healthy, because it's too easy.

[Sam Sifton]

It's both healthy and easy and delicious. But we're here to eat turkey and a bunch of sides. You eat turkey once, maybe twice a year at home. People eat salads at lunch at their desk. Why are you bringing that vibe into Thanksgiving? That's a problem to me. So that's one rule I passed along to them. Another rule I passed along to them. There's going to be a turkey.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. No chicken, no ham for you. It's got to be turkey.

[Sam Sifton]

No, you can have a ham, have a ham at Christmas, have a ham at Easter, have a ham whenever you want to have a ham. But the symbol, the protein symbol of the day, we decided together it's turkey. So make the turkey.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So you have hosted so many Thanksgiving meals. I would love for you to walk us through a little bit how you go about preparing. Because I think listeners are kind of in the mindset of thinking about this big day and what they're gonna do and in what order. How do you prepare for Thanksgiving?

[Sam Sifton]

I make a list. Basically. You wanna be able to stage things. You don't wanna have to shop on Wednesday night for everything. I've done that. It's a little hectic, but you can do it. I kinda wanna, like couple weeks out, I want to be able to get my dry goods and my bottled beverages in order. Wine, brown water, plenty of and just.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

To clarify, brown water is beer.

[Sam Sifton]

No, in this case, it's bourbon.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, bourbon. Okay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's a good catch, Cristine.

[Sam Sifton]

No, just get the things that you want to drink. You got that done. You got plenty of flour. You've got all the stuff that's not gonna go bad. Over the course of two weeks, you get that squared away. Then the weekend before, that's when I pick up my turkeys. Notice I said turkeys.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes, multiple.

[Kyra Blackwell]

How many do you usually get?

[Sam Sifton]

Depends on how many people. A minimum of two. Here's a. Oh, this is cool. Hack. This is like a wire cutter hack. This is like. This is an upgrade. Pick one thing. I generally do if I'm not sure how many people we're gonna have. I have the two birds. But to supplement all this, I usually buy a bunch of turkey thighs, and I roast those off on Wednesday night before the holiday cooking begins, and then shred all of that turkey thigh meat into a slow cooker with a gravy that I make with the drippings from those guys. And you've now I've got this, like, turkey a la king mixture that's, like, just staying on warm in the crock pot. And that'll save your bacon, if I can mix the metaphor, should a lot of extra people show up.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh, it's gravy.

[Sam Sifton]

It's gravy and shredded thigh meat.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Wow.

[Rosie Guerin]

So is it sacrilegious if I only make turkey thighs?

[Sam Sifton]

Oh, no, it's fantastic. You should do that. You should do that often.

[Rosie Guerin]

I don't have to make the big bird on.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

No, solved. There we go. Thanksgiving.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Rosie wasn't planning on making a turkey.

[Rosie Guerin]

I was gonna see her, hopefully find somebody.

[Sam Sifton]

Rosie, just make some thighs and call it good.

[Rosie Guerin]

Done.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Presumably, if you have some leftover, you can turn that into soup or something else. Right?

[Sam Sifton]

Well, definitely save the bones and turn that. I don't know about turning into gumbo. Like, all this thing. Oh, I'm gonna make soup. Like, are you. I'm gonna make gumbo. It's gonna be even better.

[Rosie Guerin]

Let's do better. Let's do better.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So you get those turkeys. The weekend before I got all lost.

[Sam Sifton]

In the thigh reverie. You can bring me back. I'm back on track. Okay, so now it's Sunday. I've picked up these birds. I'm gonna probably hit the farmer's market and get the gourds and the Brussels sprouts and the, like, the potatoes. Lots and lots of butter. I'm 90% of the way there by Sunday. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, I can get all the other stuff that I need. And then I generally begin the cooking process on Wednesday night with the thigh concoction. And I make the cranberry sauce on Wednesday night. And then Thursday is just a rush until we're ready to rock and roll.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Are you the pie baker or is someone else the pie baker?

[Sam Sifton]

I am not the pie baker.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay.

[Sam Sifton]

The pies are not mine. We have a great crew of pie bakers, and I really look forward to eating them. We do. This is not, perhaps, how most people do Thanksgiving, but the hour before the Thanksgiving feast or the 90 minutes before the actual feast, we eat oysters and drink Prosecco. Cause that's who we are.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

But you're also on the coast, right? You're near an ocean?

[Sam Sifton]

Yep, I'm near where the oysters are.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Which probably wouldn't be your choice in Denver or something.

[Sam Sifton]

No, in Denver, we might eat Rocky Mountain oysters and drink Coors, and that would be cool, too. The point is that in the 90 minutes before the meal, I don't have a big house, and I'm getting a lot of people in it, and I don't have a huge kitchen, and I got a lot of stuff to do. So I want people outside on the sidewalk, in the yard, in the alley next door doing something that is not getting in my way, but that is intensely pleasurable. And so for us, that's oysters and bubbly wine. For other people, it could be canapes and beer. We do that, then we have the feast, then we take a walk, then we eat the pies.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I mean, this leads me into my next question, because you have a pretty hot take. In your Thanksgiving book, you are adamant that you are anti appetizer, hence the oysters.

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Why?

[Sam Sifton]

Two reasons. The first is oysters don't count, right? You could eat two dozen oysters, and it's like you drank a glass of water. Cause that's essentially what you did. So oysters are a cutout from the no appetizer rule. The no appetizer rule comes out of my feeling that I did not wake up at, like, 6 in the morning on Thanksgiving Day to cook for 10 hours so that you could come to my house, eat half a pound of nuts, and then say, I'm good. I'm not having seconds.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But what time do your guests expect to eat then? Because I know at my house we intend to serve dinner at 6, but really it's not ready till 9, and people are sitting around since 3. So wow.

[Sam Sifton]

I might.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Hungry crowd.

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you gotta go ahead, fake. That's where the oysters come in. Right. Like I'm looking for a 4:00 start.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Wow.

[Sam Sifton]

And maybe those oyster situations starts around 2. They're hard to open. It takes a long time for these people to mess around and get em.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like, give them something hard that they attack. It's like not very filling.

[Sam Sifton]

I love my family, I love my guests, but it's a little bit like you gotta give the pets a toy. Like you gotta get, you gotta, you gotta give them a puzzle and they got a puzzle to mess around with and then they'll be really hungry when they get to the table. Secondly, it's a lot of people, so I don't know that I wanna mess with this little appetizer situation that I put together that I'm now gonna hand out to 30 people and then take those 30 plates back and then we're gonna do Thanksgiving. Like I made four, five side dishes and any one of those could count as an appetizer. It's all gonna be on the plate. So. Yeah. No, no, no appetizers.

[Rosie Guerin]

You know what's funny? My family tradition, my dad is the fifth of 10. There's a tradition where they eat Chex mix, homemade Chex mix on Thanksgiving. And it's not until right in this moment is it occurring to me that maybe that was to fill some bellies so that my meme and pepe didn't have to make three birds and 64 mashed potatoes.

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean, listen, if I, I'm in a position where buying two and a half birds or three birds, like that's part of my prep. But if I found myself in a position where, geez, I gotta stretch here a little bit and I'm making one bird, there'd be a big bowl of Chex mix on the table. There definitely would be. Cause Chex mix is delicious. It is filling. You could throw some dried cranberries in there and call it like seasonal.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah.

[Sam Sifton]

And that would be great. I make no judgments on how other people cook Thanksgiving, although I am very bossy about it. But I accept. Indeed, I welcome all the myriad of traditions that folks bring to the table.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And when you're orchestrating sort of the meal prep in the hours before Thanksgiving, like you take the bird out, right, the bird is resting. How are you keeping everything warm?

[Sam Sifton]

So a couple things, those birds can and should rest for longer than you're probably resting them. They can sit for a while.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like, what's a while?

[Sam Sifton]

An hour? Okay, so you've got some time there with the birds just sitting and resting. And during that time, stuff that's come into the house can go into the oven, replacing it and get warm. But you gotta be creative about what you're doing here. So a couple things to keep in mind. One, I think it's always a good idea to have turkey stock on the stove all day long. A, it makes the house smell nice. B, it's really helpful to moisten things. And especially during what the restaurant folks would call service, when you've carved the bird and you've laid it out on your platter, now's a time when it could start chilling a little bit or getting cold. But if you hit it with a ladle full of turkey stock before you send it out to the table, bing, bang, zoom. That's warm, it moistens it. It's great. It's a can't miss. The takeaway that I will give you here, if you haven't figured it out, is don't carve that bird at the table. Nobody wants to see that. You're not Doogie Howser. You can't do that. You're gonna take it back, show em, give em the Norman Rockwell reveal, but then let it sit for an hour. Carve it, get it on the table, hit it with the warm stock. Other things that make heat in the kitchen, there's a slow cooker or your mom's slow cooker. Like those can come in handy in keeping mashed potatoes warm and keeping your turkey slop warm. Are you lucky enough to have a dishwasher? Take a look at it, see if it has a plate warmer function. Because if you can put all those plates that you're gonna put out on the table and you can warm them somehow, there's less chance of putting warm things on an ice cold plate.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm usually doing Thanksgiving in a small Brooklyn apartment and I will sometimes bring my instant pot to keep mashed potatoes warm or whatever.

[Sam Sifton]

Why wouldn't you?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, and you can like put it anywhere where there's a plug.

[Sam Sifton]

That's exactly right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

If your kitchen isn't big enough.

[Leslie Stockton]

We.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Have a lot of people listening who are probably cooking for the very first time and they're really nervous about it. Yeah, it's a big pressure point. You want to impress people, you want it to taste good. Do you have any favorite crowd pleasing dishes you'd recommend for that group of people who are trying to cook for this holiday?

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah, roast turkey, mashed Potatoes, cranberry sauce, gravy, and a green of some kind. Now you're winning. Here's my. I talk to a lot of people who are cooking the meal for the first time, and what I say to them is what I say to people who are cooking it for the 30th time, who are nervous because now they have extra people or it's a new apartment or they're visiting their in laws and it's this. Everything's gonna be fine. Everything is gonna be perfectly all right. You've never cooked a turkey before. I bet you've roasted a chicken. It's just a big chicken. These are not complicated things to do. But if you really are nervous going into it, we got plenty of time left. Do a rehearsal, make mashed potatoes on a Thursday night next week before the holiday, because then it won't be the first time you've made them. I find that people who attempt and, oh, I saw this new recipe in New York Times cooking from Melissa Clark with pomegranate seeds and za'atar. And I think it's gonna be perfect on the Thanksgiving. And it's a great recipe. But you're a new cook and you should.

[Rosie Guerin]

I feel attacked.

[Sam Sifton]

Well, you just shouldn't be cooking a brand new recipe for the first time on Thanksgiving Day. So first time cooks, like, let's just keep it simple. Just lean into it and have fun.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Let's pivot a little bit and talk about drinks. Do you have any tips on, like, wines that you think are a pretty safe bet whether you're stocking your own Thanksgiving or whether you're bringing bottles to a Thanksgiving?

[Sam Sifton]

I'm always bringing bot. Here's what I have to say about wine. There are people who know a lot about wine, like, really know a lot. And then there are the rest of us and the people who know a lot about wine. That's a small percentage of the population. They're albino squirrels. You're like, look at that squirrel. That is a white squirrel. I've never seen a white squirrel that. There are such a thing as albino squirrels, by the way.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think I saw one in Park Slope.

[Sam Sifton]

Really?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

In Park Slope?

[Rosie Guerin]

That's so terrifying.

[Sam Sifton]

I saw one in Oberlin, Ohio, and I was freaked out. It was like a scene out of Harry Potter. And it turned out that squirrel was a sommelier. My advice is go to the wine shop. Not the wine shop with the plexiglass, the wine shop that just sells wine. And they're going to be offering tastings all the Way through the month of November. And you should go and taste a few and find the one that hits your price point. Fine. And that tastes good. Find the one you like and then snatch it up. Like, buy a half a case or buy a full case and it'll go well.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

How many bottles do you like to have on hand per head? Per head.

[Sam Sifton]

I worry my answer will seem aggressive.

[Leslie Stockton]

Go for it. How silly.

[Rosie Guerin]

Are you kidding?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Let's get crazy.

[Sam Sifton]

You don't want to run out.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah. Absolutely not.

[Sam Sifton]

Is it nuts to say two bottles per head? I don't think it's crazy.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mean, you can always drink it later.

[Sam Sifton]

Yep. You probably have a cousin who's gonna drink it now. So you don't. Again, you don't wanna run out. Because you gotta remember at Thanksgiving, you're not gonna change anyone's behavior, and no one's behavior is gonna change on its own.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I like how you also mention eggnog in your book honorable mention for me. Cause I always make that for my family on Thanksgiving.

[Sam Sifton]

Oh, that's so great. In our family, my brother makes the eggnog, and he makes these eggnogs that he brings in these huge mason jars that then can last for the whole holiday season. My daughter believes that the minute the turkey leaves the table, Christmas music can begin. And so there's this kind of connection between that and the eggnog. My brother's eggnog is scary. It's delicious. But it's high Test.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Between prepping, cooking, eating. Thanksgiving creates a huge mess. I'm wondering, what's your ideal situation for the cleanup etiquette? Some people kind of get weird if you offer to help clean up. Some people also get weird if you don't. So how do you think guests and hosts should handle the cleanup process at Thanksgiving?

[Sam Sifton]

Well, there are a couple things to remember. One thing to remember is people get weird. They're gonna be weird about something, so that's okay. Another thing that I think is really important, at least for me and for anyone who wishes to follow my teachings, we clean as we go. I like to clean as I go. I do not want to get to the end of the preparation, and the kitchen looks like a bomb went off. It's much easier for me to kind of keep track of what I'm doing and clean as I go, in part because there's a lot of food out there. I need that pan again. I need that measuring cup again. Nevertheless, at the end, you have 30, whatever plates. You have 120 pieces of silverware, water, glasses, wine, Glasses. There's a lot going on. You kind of want to just organize that and hope that there are people who want to step up and be part of that kitchen brigade to clean. If they're not, I'll step up and do it. I'm not going to get weird about it, but you just know that's not their thing.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Sam Sifton]

Hopefully they have another thing.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah. That's when we're in trouble. You don't have anything.

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Sam, we usually ask our guests one final question, which is what product did you recently buy that you love? But we're gonna put a spin on it this time and ask you something a little bit different. What is your favorite side dish to cook for Thanksgiving?

[Sam Sifton]

There's a recipe for my favorite side dish that is in the Thanksgiving how to Cook it well cookbook, and it's for Brussels sprouts. It was a recipe of my dad's, and it wasn't even really a recipe. It's just, like, bacon, Brussels sprouts, heavy cream. But those three ingredients combine into a kind of ambrosial fall flavor that, to me, is both a taste of Thanksgiving and a connection to my dad, who's dead. And it's amazing to me because I love it for that reason, but my kids, who were quite young when he died, remember it as his dish, too. And so here we are passing down a generational recipe that I hope my kids will make. And I don't know, I'm a sentimental person when it comes to this holiday, but that's the dish in which I feel the strongest connection to the past.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I love that.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's beautiful.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Thank you.

[Rosie Guerin]

Sam. Thanks so much for joining us. This was really fun.

[Sam Sifton]

Thank you. Had a great time. Looking forward to Thanksgiving and hope you all enjoy it as much as I will.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay. I love that stock on the stove idea. And, you know, I think the big takeaway here is that when you're thinking about Thanksgiving, don't overcomplicate it. It's not the time to make a bunch of new recipes. It is time to keep it simple.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah. Unless you like oysters, then just go big.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I personally love oysters, but I will not be serving them at Thanksgiving. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to talk all about kitchen gear with Wirecutters Senior kitchen writer Leslie Stockton. She's going to walk us through what you really need to cook a great turkey and all the things you can really skip.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Be right back.

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[Christine Cyrclassette]

Before we get back into the show, I want to tell you about Wirecutter's brand new newsletter. It's called the Gift and it's the ultimate year round gift guide dropping straight to your inbox every week.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You know, the best gifts I've ever given have been recommendations from Wirecutter's experts, who, by the way, have impeccable taste.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Every week in the Gift, the newsletter team will share hidden gems and some great deals on delightful things. They'll find the best gifts. All you have to do is take the credit. Sign up [e-mail] thegift.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show. With us now is Leslie Stockton, who is a senior kitchen writer at Wirecutter. Leslie has over 20 years of experience cooking in professional kitchens, and she's tested a ton of kitchen gear that can be helpful for tackling the beast that is Thanksgiving. That's what we're gonna talk about with her today.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yes. But before we get into the turkey gear, Leslie, I need to address something. You recently told me this wild detail about your work history. You have cooked over 100 turkeys. Like, how is that even possible? How are you cooking that many turkeys? Cause you're not. For those who cannot see Leslie right now, you are not 100 years old.

[Leslie Stockton]

I am not, No. I started my career in the restaurant hospitality. So one of my earlier jobs was I was a cook in a hotel. And so we did a lot of turkey roasting in the hotel for like buffets. And then I went to Martha Stewart. That's when, when you get assigned the Thanksgiving story. Let me paint you a picture. It's June, it's warm. You want to go to the beach, but your mind is in November. And so between developing the recipe for the turkey and someone testing that recipe and the shoot, because we styled the food for our stories, I mean, that's, I don't know, 10 to 15 turkeys. And then by the time Thanksgiving rolls around, I had to do it all over again. And let me tell you, after all that turkey roasting in June, you don't want it. You don't want it. Even though I love everything on that table. So Thanksgiving, I'd have all these people around my table and they would be eating like, oh my God, this is amazing. This is amazing. Why aren't you eating? And I would just be sitting there drinking wine like I'm just waiting for pie, y'all.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So, Leslie, we have a lot of listeners who are probably cooking turkeys for the very first time or maybe trying to perfect their cooking methods. And that can be so intimidating. They might feel like they need a lot of stuff like a roasting pan, a high tech thermometer, an electric meat carver. There's just a lot of stuff marketed as essential at this time of year. So we want to hear it directly from you. Leslie, what do you think people really need to make a great turkey?

[Leslie Stockton]

Well, you need a vessel to put that turkey in, like a roasting pan. You can get away with putting it on a baking sheet, but it's not fun to maneuver a turkey on a low sided, wide baking sheet. It's like a martini glass, you know, spillage, spillage.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Built to spill hot fat in it. That's probably not a good, a good move.

[Leslie Stockton]

It's built to spill.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, what's up? Like, I don't wanna have a roasting pan. Cause I don't have a big enough kitchen to store it all year long. Like what? There are those like roasting pans that they have at grocery stores that are aluminum. Are those okay to use?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes, 100%. The only thing you can't do in those is, is make the gravy on the stovetop. You know, you have to scrape all the drippings into something else to like make your gravy.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What about, do you need an electric carving knife?

[Leslie Stockton]

You do not. You just need a sharp knife.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Leslie Stockton]

I cut up my entire turkey with wire cutter's pick, the Mac MTH80.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I love that knife, by the way. It's a good knife.

[Leslie Stockton]

Good.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So just like a sharp chef's knife, you don't necessarily need like a carving set or something like that?

[Leslie Stockton]

No, no. I mean a chef's knife will work for that too, I promise. Lovely. Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And lastly, I have this big question about a meat thermometer I've always wanted to get. You know, the meter. It's a very fancy digital thermometer that'll tell you exactly how much time that your meat needs to cook and at what temperature.

[Leslie Stockton]

How does it know Magic. It'll tell you that your turkey's BMI.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And supposedly, like, it's. You put in the weight, and then it gives you the exact time and heat that you need to cook it perfectly. But do you really need something that fancy?

[Leslie Stockton]

No, not when you have a search engine at your fingertips.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But do you recommend that people get a thermometer, y'all?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes, I think the thermopop, which is. I don't know. Is it $30?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, it's something around $30.

[Leslie Stockton]

I think it's a great investment. You really want a meat thermometer because you want your turkey fully cooked? Because it's a health hazard if it's not. And also, undercooked thigh meat, to me, is, like, one of the worst sensations.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, it's, like, chewy and gross.

[Kyra Blackwell]

A little slimy.

[Leslie Stockton]

Slimy, yeah. So it's really good to have a meat thermometer for that reason. And the USDA says that New York turkey should be cooked to 165 degrees internally. And so. And what they mean by internal temp is that the center of the thickest muscle should be 165. And the breast is going to cook faster than the thigh, which is why you want to take the temperature from the thickest part of the thigh. And the thickest part of the thigh is if you're looking at the turkey and the breasts are up, you stick the probe of the thermometer through that little crevice where the thigh meets the breast, and you kind of angle it out a little bit. Avoid the bone, and don't worry about it. You can do this a few times. It's okay. Taking the temp from that inside part is really crucial, because if it's undercooked, that's the part that will be undercooked, not the part of the thigh on the outside. Right. Cause that's been exposed to the heat for, like, two plus hours.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I just don't really understand if you have the space in your oven or if you have a roasting pan large enough. Why wouldn't you spatchcock a turkey? Spatchcocking is like when you. When you pull the spine out and then you kind of flatten the bird so it all cooks evenly. Why don't more recipes call for that?

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, well. And spatchcocking a turkey is a pain in the butt. It's not as easy as spatchcocking a chicken. I mean, have you ever tried cutting the spine out of a turkey?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Get a really good knife.

[Leslie Stockton]

No, do not do that to your knife. No.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So what do I need? Scissors. Kitchen scissors. Yeah.

[Leslie Stockton]

If you can make it work in that with this turkey bone, have button, or have your butcher do it. Cause they have a band saw.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah.

[Leslie Stockton]

You know.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, so it's a pain in the butt. That's why you wouldn't do it.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right. And also, like, it's really easy to cook the turkey the way I cook.

[Kyra Blackwell]

A turkey, which is roasting it, which.

[Leslie Stockton]

Is just putting it in the oven and forgetting she exists for a couple of hours. Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So like, a little neglect is good care.

[Leslie Stockton]

A lot of neglect.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Like a couple glasses of wine.

[Leslie Stockton]

Just.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, Give it some time.

[Rosie Guerin]

So if you're going into this, you want a roasting pan. If you don't have a roasting pan, because you're gonna use it maybe once a year, grab an aluminum foil one. And you want a thermometer. You want a meat thermometer or an instant read thermometer. One out of the way.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And a nice carving knife.

[Rosie Guerin]

And a nice carving knife.

[Leslie Stockton]

And a box of salt.

[Rosie Guerin]

Always a big old box of salt.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So, Leslie, I want to know about the gear you don't really need for Thanksgiving. You already mentioned the electric carving knife. What else is there?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, you don't need a baster.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Ooh, hot take.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Jinx.

[Leslie Stockton]

You don't need it. There's no reason why.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I mean, you want to keep a bird reef.

[Leslie Stockton]

Why would I want to re. Wet the skin that I'm trying to render and get crisp?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Ooh. Oh, okay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, Good point.

[Leslie Stockton]

You let that skin dry out because you want to render out the fat and get the crispy skin.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

No baster. Get rid of that baster.

[Leslie Stockton]

You don't need it.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So then what are things that are nice to have but definitely not necessary nice to have?

[Leslie Stockton]

Gas grill's really nice to have. If you're, like, really limited with oven space, you can cook your turkey on the gas grill outside.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Outside.

[Leslie Stockton]

Obviously outside. We're not bringing that thing inside. Weber has, like, step by step instructions. But if you have a three burner grill, you turn on the outside burners. You leave the middle burner off. You put a pan on the, what they call the flavorizer bars to collect those drippings. Because again, gravy.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And the advantage of this is that you free up your oven so you can make all the sides. And if you have friends coming over and they can, like, do their sides and everything, and then you've got somebody outside manning the turkey roasting operation. Okay, I like that.

[Leslie Stockton]

And if you have a grill, you probably have A set of grilling tools. And they're great to use to transfer a turkey from the roasting pan to the cutting board. What I do is I shove some tongs up the cavity on the leg end, on the business end on the backside, and then I scoop a very large spatula supporting the neck end and I just. It's a very safe way to transfer the turkey from the roasting pan to the cutting board. Now here's a little expert tip. There is some juice that has accumulated inside the cavity and you kind of want that involved in your gravy making. So I just tilt up with the spatula on the neck end and just kind of gently let those juices run out into the pan. Then you have more juices to make gravy with.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Ooh, this is a really good tip. I feel like I'll use this. And if you don't happen to have like grill tools, could you do this with maybe like tongs or something in your kitchen?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Stockton]

That's what I use. Cause I don't have a set of grill tools, but I do have 12 inch tongs. I have a giant fish spatula that's made for the grill.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Just to recap the essentials that you really, really want to have are you want to have a roasting pan, whether it's a store bought triple like layered aluminum pan, or whether you're investing in a nice pan that you're going to use over and over. You should have some kind of sharp knife, like a chef's knife. You want that instant read thermometer because you gotta have that to make sure that your bird is done and it's good year round. Right. And the things that you really can skip are a turkey baster and the little mini chainsaw electric cutter. Right? No, no need for that. And then the things that you might want to have that are nice to have if you've got a grill, think about using your three burner grill outside to cook the turkey. If you are trying to free up space in your kitchen and either the grill tools or tongs to help you move the turkey.

[Apple Pay Sponsor]

Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Leslie, thank you so much. This has been so fun.

[Leslie Stockton]

Thank you for having me. Ella Bain here. Wow.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I feel like I've learned so much. I'm actually kind of excited for Thanksgiving this year, you guys.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I almost want to just stay home and make it myself.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

But I still would like some invitations if anyone's listening.

[Rosie Guerin]

So specifically, if Sam Sifton can still hear me.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, I mean, specifically Sam. No.

[Rosie Guerin]

What a dream.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What did you guys take away from that?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

There were so many things. It was. It's hard to choose. But I think the. The thing that was really new for me is that tip that Leslie had about some grill tools or tongs that you have in your kitchen to transfer the turkey from the roasting pan over to a cutting board. I feel like I would actually use that even for, like, a large chicken. It's always so awkward. So that was a really great takeaway for me.

[Kyra Blackwell]

That's a good one for me. I think I'm gonna aim to serve dinner earlier. No, but really, on the subject of just doing things earlier, what I really took away from Sam is that you can start shopping for Thanksgiving up to two weeks ahead.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, I like that, too.

[Rosie Guerin]

For me, I am clinging to Sam's idea around making turkey thighs instead of a whole bird. I think that might be where I start this year. And also not trying to be too ambitious. Not trying to make something I've never seen or heard about until the day before Thanksgiving and then trying to tackle that on the big day while I'm also juggling, hosting, and perfecting the eggnog and the spiced mulled wine and all of that. So keep it simple.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's right.

[Rosie Guerin]

And it'll all be fine.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Everything will be fine.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's going to be great.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Well, that's it for us this week. If you want to find out more about Wirecutters coverage or if you want to check out any of the products that Leslie recommended, go to nytimes.comwirecutter or find a link in the show notes. Special thanks this week to Sam Sifton and Leslie Stockton. That is it for us. Happy holiday season.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Happy holidays.

[Rosie Guerin]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Editing by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Matty Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Ba itup and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. Thank you for listening.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You wiggle the turkey legs?

[Sam Sifton]

Yeah, man. I touch my food. I'm clean. I'm not dirty.