How to Nail the Perfect Cookie with NYT Cooking’s Vaughn Vreeland

Summary

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The Wirecutter Show – How to Nail the Perfect Cookie with NYT Cooking’s Vaughn Vreeland

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: The New York Times
Guest: Vaughn Vreeland, New York Times Cooking

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Overview

In this festive, advice-packed episode, co-hosts Christine Cyr Clisset, Kyra Blackwell, and Rosie Guerin sit down with Vaughn Vreeland, host of the NYT Cooking YouTube series and newsletter Bake Time and author of the new cookbook Cookies. Together, they unpack everything you need to know to bake the perfect holiday cookie—covering essential tools, preventing common mistakes, the science of cookie texture, and flavor creativity. Listener questions drive much of the discussion, making this a highly practical episode for cookie lovers of all skill levels.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic and Tradition of Cookie Week

• What is Cookie Week?
  NYT Cooking’s annual celebration: seven days of new, creative cookie recipes and festive videos ([05:01]).
• Recipe Development Process:
  Each year in May, the team brainstorms flavors and inventive spins (“but make it a cookie!”), mixing and matching pitches to create a cohesive, dynamic assortment ([05:20]).

  "We convene in like May and we're like, okay, so how do we not necessarily one up ourselves, but how do we keep like pushing the form a little bit?" – Vaughn Vreeland ([05:20])

2. Pushing Cookie Boundaries: "But Make It a Cookie"

• 2025 Theme: Transforming favorite drinks and foods (like cocktails and even mortadella!) into cookies ([06:33]).
• Notable Creations:
  • Mortadella cookie (almond dough, pistachio, macadamia, pink hue from freeze-dried strawberries) ([06:52])
  • Eggnog snickerdoodles, Mexican hot chocolate, gingerbread latte cookies

3. Listener Q&A: Silicone vs. Parchment for Baking Cookies

• Silicone mats vs. parchment:
  Silicone absorbs more heat, parchment allows for more browning and crispiness; most NYT recipes prefer parchment for easy cookie release ([08:00]–[09:16]).

4. Core Gear for Home Bakers

• Essentials: ([09:33])
  • Spoonula (spatula-spoon hybrid): For scraping, mixing efficiently ([09:36])
  • Cookie scoop (OXO recommended): Ensures uniform size; check volume calibrations as they vary by brand ([10:15]–[11:16])
  • Kitchen scale: Precision and consistency; Escali model recommended, costs under $30 ([12:59]–[13:05])
  • Rimmed baking sheet: Sturdier, better for heat conduction ([13:13])
  • Optional but nice-to-haves: Offset spatula (for lifting delicate cookies), cooling rack (ideally one that fits inside your sheet tray), ring molds or lowball glass (to "hack" perfect round cookies) ([14:06]–[15:35])
• Organization (“mise en place”):
  Have everything ready before starting for less stress and more confidence ([11:26])

"Even if you're a casual baker, even if you're baking curious. I think that you should own a kitchen scale." – Vaughn Vreeland ([12:48])

5. Cookie Aesthetics Pro Tips

• Use a ring mold or glass to swirl around a hot cookie for that Instagram-perfect roundness ([15:35])
• Save extra bits of chocolate to press into the top of dough balls for picture-perfect "puddles" ([16:13])

6. Gear You Don’t Need (& When to Splurge)

• Stand mixer: Nice, but not essential. Hand mixer or even a sturdy spoon can suffice ([17:13])
• High-end butter: Only worth it in recipes that highlight brown butter ([17:50])

7. Brown Butter Techniques

• Don’t substitute brown butter for regular butter without adjustments!
  Browning reduces butter’s water content—replace lost moisture (e.g., with water or an ice cube) to prevent cookies from becoming dry ([18:22])
• Solidify brown butter if the recipe calls for softened, not melted butter ([19:55])

"If the recipe’s calling for softened butter, you're gonna want to take the time to like re-solidify that brown butter before you actually continue." – Vaughn Vreeland ([19:55])

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8. Troubleshooting Cookie Texture and Spread

Listener Q: How to Get Thick, Dense Cookies? ([23:04])

• Causes of Excess Spread: Overcrowding sheet, dough not sufficiently chilled, wrong sugar ratios, outdated leaveners ([23:39])
• Tips:
  • Chill scooped dough before baking
  • Increase brown sugar for more chew and height, decrease white sugar to reduce spread ([24:54])
  • Replace old baking soda/powder ([25:28])
• Quote:

  "White sugar helps with the crisp around the edges and also typically creates a spread in cookies." – Vaughn Vreeland ([24:56])

Listener Q: Reducing Sugar for Less Sweet Cookies ([25:47])

• Cutting sugar affects both flavor and structure. Compensate by:
  • Adjusting fat content
  • Adding a bit of water for moisture ([27:53]–[28:05])
  • Seek flavor depth using brown sugar instead of plain granulated sugar
• Recommended recipe: Chewy brownie cookie with flaky salt for balanced sweetness ([28:32])
• Quote:

  "One like, really great secret ingredient for a lot of cookies is water." – Vaughn Vreeland ([27:53])

9. Creativity: Savory Ingredients in Sweet Cookies

• Miso, gochujang, and olive oil add subtle depth and interest:
  "Miso is so good in cookies. It adds this level of savoriness that's just, like, really beautiful." ([29:32])
• Salt on cookies (particularly with chocolate) elevates flavors ([28:32])

10. Lightning Round: Diagnosing Cookie Problems ([30:26])

• Too hard: Overbaked ([30:31])
• Too cakey: Too much flour/dry ([30:35])
• Spreading too much: Insufficient chilling, too much fat, too crowded ([30:41])
• Burned bottoms: Check bakeware quality and oven temperature ([30:50])
  • Oven temp: Always use an oven thermometer; ovens frequently run hotter or cooler than their display ([31:03])

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Memorable Quotes

• On imperfection:

  "What's nice about baking is that at the end of the day like you still have a cookie. Like, you know, like not being afraid of making a mistake is gonna like free you up so much mentally in the kitchen." – Vaughn Vreeland ([00:39], [20:50])

• On making cookies beautiful:

  "Ring molds are actually really fun for getting that, like, Instagram perfect circular cookie. ... Just do concentric circles really fast, and it makes a very perfect circular cookie. That's what all of our food stylists do." – Vaughn Vreeland ([15:35])

• On brown butter:

  "You can't just simply swap brown butter for butter in a recipe. You have to think about what is happening to butter when you're browning it, and think about what you're losing. You're losing water." – Vaughn Vreeland ([18:22])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|-----------| | Cookie Week, creative process | 05:01–07:21| | Parchment vs. silicone | 07:38–09:16| | Essential cookie gear | 09:19–14:00| | "Nice to have" tools, kitchen scale rec | 14:06–15:35| | Picture-perfect cookies (ring mold hack) | 15:35–16:08| | Brown butter science | 17:57–20:17| | Chilling dough, achieving thick cookies | 23:04–24:54| | Reducing sugar in cookies | 25:47–28:05| | Creative/savory ingredients in cookies | 28:56–30:17| | Troubleshooting (lightning round) | 30:26–31:15|

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Takeaways & Final Thoughts

• Precision tools pay off: Invest in a kitchen scale, use a thermometer for your oven, and a sturdy cookie scoop for uniformity.
• Chill your dough: For height and chewiness—scoop first, then refrigerate.
• Tweak sugar and fat for texture (not just sweetness).
• Don't sweat mistakes: Even "imperfect" cookies are a treat.
• Let creativity lead: Try infusing savory ingredients or pressing extra chocolate on top.
• Always read the recipe from top to bottom before starting.
• Simple gear is sufficient; stand mixers are not required.
• Most importantly: Have fun, share cookies—you’ll still have a tasty treat in the end.

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Recommended Resources:

• Vaughn Vreeland’s cookbook Cookies
• NYT Cooking YouTube series & Bake Time newsletter
• Wirecutter’s kitchen scale recommendation: Escali

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Transcript

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

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[Vaughn Vreeland]

What's nice about baking is that at the end of the day like you still have a cookie. Like, you know, like not being afraid of making a mistake is gonna like free you up so much mentally in the kitchen.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm Rosie Garant and and you're listening to the Wirecutter Show. Guys, today we're talking about cookies.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Oh my God.

[Rosie Guerin]

Not just cookies, but the book Cookies, which is the new book from Von Vreeland who is part of the New York Times cooking team.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm really excited to talk to Vaughn. He is charming, he is skilled and he has a ton of great recommendations for holiday baking.

[Rosie Guerin]

Is the host of Bake Time, which is a video series for New York Times Cooking. It's also the name of a newsletter that he started.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, they, they just came out with that in October. I subscribed. It's great. And he's got like practical but also aspirational advice on how to make cookies.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And he wrapped it all up in his new book which came out in October. And I'm so excited because it's all ramping up for Cookie Week at the New York Times Cooking.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's a big, it's a big part of the year. One of the things that we did that's fun in this episode is we asked to hear from listeners. So we're going to see if you can answer some questions about cookies. Yep.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So we're going to take a quick break and then when we're back we'll be with Von Vreeland and hopefully we'll get everything you need to know about baking great cookies. Stick around.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

It's time for Cyber Monday, Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more, faster, plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail] deals.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Hear that? That's what it sounds like when you.

[Rosie Guerin]

Plant more trees than you harvest.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Work done by thousands of working forest professionals like Adam, a district forest manager who works to protect our forests from fires.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Keeping the forest fire resistant, synonymous with keeping the forest healthy. And we do that through planting more than we harvest and mitigate those risks through active management. It's a long term commitment.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Visit workingforestsinitiative.com to learn more.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Hey, it's Vaughn Vreeland from New York Times Cooking. And if I could hit a whistle tone, I would do a Mariah. It's time. Cause Cookie Week is here. It is the best time all year when we unveil seven days of new cookie recipes from some of your favorite bakers.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This looks like a little pink poodle.

[Rosie Guerin]

They look huggable.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What if I took Vietnamese coffee and made that into a cookie?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

These are deluxe cookies. The sour candy is crazy.

[Listener Caller]

What?

[Rosie Guerin]

It's absolutely unhinged but completely delicious.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It smells so good.

[Rosie Guerin]

Find all the Cookie week [e-mail] subscribe now for a limited time offer. Welcome back. Our guest today is the Cookie man Von Vreeland. Vaughn is the host of the New York Times Cooking YouTube series and newsletter called Bake Time. And he has a new book out, appropriately called Cookies. The book is a love letter to cookie baking. It is full of recipes for every occasion, many of which Vaughn developed, plus with many contributions from his colleagues at Times Cooking, including Eric Kim's Gojichang caramel cookies, Yuande Kamalafe's spiced chocolate marble shortbread, and Sola El Wayli's white chocolate macadamia nut cookies. Vaughn, so happy to have you here. Welcome.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So we are catching you actually mid Cookie Week. For those who are not familiar with Cookie Week, this is a New York Times cooking annual tradition where they publish a bunch of really awesome holiday cookie recipes. There's supporting videos and all this awesome stuff. Vaughn, can you tell us a little bit about Cookie Week and what we can expect this year?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Oh, it's good. It's really good. So we convene in like May and we're like, okay, so how do we not necessarily one up ourselves, but how do we keep like pushing the form a little bit?

[Kyra Blackwell]

I just imagine you guys trying to like reinvent the cookie wheel.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

Yes.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

There's like a TV show about this no, it's like.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's like we convene and we get pitches from all the developers, and then we like, put them literally up onto like a board. And then we mix and match from the different pitches to see, like, okay, so she pitched a fruity one, he pitched a nunny one, they pitched, like a chocolatey one. How did these all look together in a cookie box?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, that's awesome. I like that.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's fun. It's a lot of mixing and matching. And so this year I'm really excited because the theme is but make it a cookie. And so, like, my first recipe I ever worked on for New York Times cooking was an eggnog snickerdoodle, and it is based off of the beverage. And then I kind of took that and ran with it the other cookie week. So I did like a Mexican hot chocolate cookie, a gingerbread latte cookie. And they were popular because I think people resonate with those flavor profiles. And then they're like, how does that translate into a cookie? Right?

[Rosie Guerin]

And it's super festive.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's festive, yes. So this year everybody's like, well, why don't we just do like a riff on that and have everybody pitch but make it a cookie? So people were thinking about, like, their favorite cocktails as cookies. There's a mortadella cookie, which.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's actually probably one of my favorite ones.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

It's like a sausage.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Is that with pistachio?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah, yeah, it's got pistachio. It's really creative and fun. It's like a almond cookie, like a slice and bake that gets its pink hue, like the mortadella, like soft pink from freeze dried strawberries.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh, so fun.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

And then there is pistachios and macadamia nuts for those, like, little specks of fat that you would see. It looks just like it's really fun. A little trippy. Yeah, it's fun.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We put out a call to our listeners to send us their toughest questions around cookie baking. And so we want you to help diagnose their various baking issues. So are you game to answer some questions?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

All right, let's go.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Hi, wirecutter. My name is Poppy and I'm from New York City, but I'm currently living in the dmv. My cookie question is, when baking cookies, does it make a difference if you use a silicone pad or parchment paper on a baking sheet, does one add more of a crispy texture? Thanks. Bye.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, this is a good question. I Feel like I've had this question.

[Rosie Guerin]

I know.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I'll be honest.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Shout out to the dmv. Very cute.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Poppy.

[Rosie Guerin]

Poppy.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Like, oh, my God, Poppy, I love you. That is a really good question. I still test recipes on both silicone baking mats and parchment paper to make sure that it bakes the same. Sometimes it will bake differently. Silicone, it will absorb more of the heat on a metal baking tray. So parchment, there's gonna be a little bit less hindrance. It's more of like a. You'll have, like, more metal conduction underneath it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So does it make it crisper with the parchment and browner?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You know, in my oven, yes, it does. In my oven, things tend to cook a little bit faster on parchment paper. Now, people like baking on silicone because all you gotta do is wash it off. It also will create, for me, at least, more consistent results. But parchment, I think, is more of the route that we go with for a lot of our cookie recipes, because it's more, like, readily available at the grocery store, and it's usually going to be a little bit easier to lift the cookie off of the parchment quicker. But, yeah, I mean, still, that's a question that I still like. Test recipes to make sure that it works the same on both. If there is a discrepancy in them, it's worth noting, but usually it's about the same.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay, that's great. So Poppy's question is a really good segue into talking a little bit more about gear. What are your essential cookie baking tools in the kitchen? What do you think? If people are really wanting to bake this holiday season, what do they really, really need to have?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You have to have a good, strong spatula.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What shape?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I like the kind of spoonulas because they. What? Like, they call it a spoonula because it's got a little bit of a divot, like a spoon, but it's also a silicone spatula. For me, that's, like, the easiest of getting into. You know, if you're with a stand mixer or even with a hand mixer in a bow, scraping down the sides is very key. Like, especially after creaming the butter and the sugar. To me, that's also something that kind of goes back to Poppy's question of, like, consistency. I experience much more consistent bakes if I take the time to actually go through the steps as intended.

[Rosie Guerin]

Like, you write about that in the book. Yeah. Read the recipe.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Read the recipe from top to bottom. Absolutely. Read the recipe from top to bottom, and you run less of a risk. Less Of a margin for error. But yeah, I would say a silicone spatula, a spoonula, I would say I like OXO cookie scoops. I think that OXO cookie scoops are. They're the ones that a lot of our developers test with. But the thing that's really frustrating about cookie scoops is from brand to brand, they're all different sizes. OXO makes a two ounce cookie scoop, for example, and that doesn't necessarily always correspond with the same size as like the restaurant supply store ones. So definitely make sure that when you're using a cookie scoop, I like to fill it with water and put it in like a shot glass to see how many ounces it actually is. That's brilliant.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And 2 ounces is what you would recommend I use?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Well, it depends on. For my chocolate chip cookies, I use a two ounce scoop, which is gonna be four tablespoons, and then a one ounce scoop is two tablespoons. So for a smaller drop cookie, my cookie for cookie week this year is the 1 ounce scoop.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And just to be clear, a cookie scoop is kind of like, it looks like an ice cream scoop, but it has a little thing that you push with your thumb to eject the cookie dough.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Exactly. Yeah. It's got a release mechanism.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yes. Right, right. Like we're mission impossible cooking.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yes. I mean, and depending on the dough, like, I have worked with dough before that was too cold and sometimes the cookie scoop snaps. So I think that the OXO ones are traditionally the most durable. The Oxo ones I've had for like eight years also, you know, be set up for success, whether you're baking on parchment or your silicone baking mats. I like to have everything laid out for me before I start baking because there's nothing worse than having like dough all over your hands and everything's greasy. Then you gotta go like into the drawer and find the plastic wrap. Everything gets all buttery when you have a nice mise en place. That is very comforting when you go into the baking process and also makes you a little bit more confident. Another thing, I think that everybody should own a kitchen scale. Even if you're a casual baker, even if you're baking curious. I think that you should own a kitchen scale. Go into your kitchen and measure out a cup of flour in your cup. First of all, I have like four different brands of cup measures and they all are different for some reason. And when I scoop, even if I'm like delicately scooping the flour out of my container, I will scoop probably 145 gram for one cup of flour. Our cup is 126 grams. For our recipes, definitely a kitchen scale. And they just make such quick work of everything.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

We recommended the Escali.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Mine is a Escali.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yeah, I think that's, like, a really common one that a lot of people recommend. It's cheap. It's, like, under 30 bucks.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's under 30 bucks. And my friend sue used to work at 11 Madison park, and that was the one that she had when she worked there.

[Rosie Guerin]

What about a baking sheet?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Oh, yeah. You know, ribbed baking sheet, for sure.

[Rosie Guerin]

Why rim?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Because that's what we test all of our recipes on. My mom has this. I guess it would be considered what they maybe call a cookie sheet, which is like, the ones without the rim.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, my grandma has those, and she swears by them.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You know, to me, they're, like, flimsier. They don't conduct to the heat as well. And, like, I always burn stuff on them. I think just any, like, rimmed baking sheet that if you knock on it, it should sound denser.

[Rosie Guerin]

Right.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And it should not sound like. Like it's wobbling like.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Like those sheets of, like, thunder within the movies. Yeah, it shouldn't sound like that.

[Rosie Guerin]

No.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It should sound like you're, like, knocking on something a little bit. A little bit heftier.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What are some of the nice to have pieces of gear that you think would. Will just make cookie baking easier and more pleasurable.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I love an offset spatula. I use it for basically everything. Why is that? If you think about a spatula, it's like the handle, and then the metal part goes straight out from it. This one has, like, a little bit of a dip before the spatula part. Got it. Yeah. So it is on two planes. You've got the handle on one plane and the actual spatula part on another.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Right. It's like a spongebob.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yes, it is like that. And they're long and skinny, and so that's nice. People use it for baking cakes and things like that for smoothing stuff out. I like to use them actually, like, the small offset for, like, peeking under the cookie when I'm taking it out of the oven to make sure that the bottom. It's a very delicate way of doing it without using a big fish spatula or something like that. And, like, running the risk of breaking your cookie before it sets.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

What about a cooling rack?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I was gonna say a cooling rack that fits in the sheet tray.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm so sorry. You guys can tell that I don't bake. What's a cooling rack.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

It's a wire rack. That's a grid.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh, yeah.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

So, like, usually you want your cookies to set up for a couple minutes before you transfer them, because the residual heat that's still on the baking sheet will still cook them. Will still, like, kind of cook them. Yeah. So putting a cooling rack. I like to have ones that fit in my sheet tray because they won't wobble around as much. I have knocked cooling racks of cookies off of the counter, and it is not very fun. I like that. And you know what is my favorite thing that is, like, such an extra thing to have? But it makes your cookies very beautiful. And you can do this with, like, a lowball glass too. But ring molds.

[Rosie Guerin]

Oh.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

So ring molds are actually really fun for getting that, like, Instagram perfect circular cookie. When a cookie comes out and it's like, shaped like an amoeba, you know, and you're like, okay, wait, this isn't very circular. Well, talking about it's still warm and still kind of malleable when it's on the sheet tray. So you take the ring mold or like a lowball glass, and you put it over it. The circumference has to be wider than the actual cookie. Then you just do concentric circles really fast, and it makes a very perfect circular cookie. That's what all of our food stylists do.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That is such a hack.

[Rosie Guerin]

That is a hack.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I am doing that. I'm gonna impress my family.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yep.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Gonna bake.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You can buy, like, the ring molds on Amazon. The nice thing about those two is they come in a bunch of different sizes. So they start at probably like a 1 inch diameter and go out to like, probably a 6 inch diameter. And then another cookie tip. If we're talking cookie tips, making them, like, really picture perfect is especially like a chocolate chip cookie. Res some chunks of chocolate and then press those into the top before you bake them. And then that will create those, like, really beautiful puddles of chocolate on top.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

While it's still dough.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

While it's still dough. And then it bakes into it perfectly.

[Rosie Guerin]

I always wondered how they get those.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah. Cause, like, a lot of times, you know, when you scoop it, you'll get dough on the mounded side and you won't see the chocolate on the inside. Still gonna taste great, but it's not gonna have those, like, we call them puddles of chocolate.

[Rosie Guerin]

I love that.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Oh, I am lo. So are there any pieces of gear that you think people think they need to have to make Great cookies, but you're kind of like, mm, you don't need that. Mm.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You know, I. I didn't have a stand mixer for a long time when I moved up to New York, and I, like, was still able to very adequately make cookies. And so I don't think you need it. I will say, like, a hand mixer makes really nice work of stuff, though. Like, what are some things that people Extra special butter. If butter is, like, in the title of something like brown butter, you probably do want to splurge. Okay. If you're able to, of course, because brown butter gets its flavor from the milk solids browning. The higher quality or the higher fat, butter is going to have more milk solids to brown, so it will taste more nutty.

[Rosie Guerin]

Typically, we have a listener question, actually that's specifically about butter that I love to toss and get your thoughts on.

[Listener Caller]

Hi, this is Jacqueline from Salt Lake City, Utah. My question is about browned butter. My sister has a chocolate chip cookie recipe with browned butter, and it's phenomenal. And now I want to try brown butter in all of my cookies. Is this a good approach? Is it advised for some types of cookies, but not others? Any tips on brown butter in cookies would be great. Thank you.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I love this question. I love this question because when I was first making brown butter cookies, I also wanted to put brown butter in everything. Like, I literally was like, oh, my God, this is so good. But you can't just simply swap brown butter for butter in a recipe. You have to think about what is happening to butter when you're browning it, and think about what you're losing. You're losing water. You're losing a big portion of the moisture content that's actually in that butter, because that's what's being driven off before it can then brown. And so if you think about it, melt butter, pour it into, like, a Pyrex, and you'll see that if you're doing two sticks of butter, that's a. So it'll go to the cup line. But if you brown two sticks of butter, you're gonna probably lose close to a quarter cup of moisture that's in there. So, you know, I always, if I'm browning butter, like, to make sure that the volume measurement lines up. And I'll pour it into, like, a glass measuring cup. And then I'll usually add an ice cube. Cause that also just stops the cooking. You could add bourbon to it, you know, which would make it, like, any kind of, like, you know, anything that's, like, gonna add that moisture Back in there I a test with our very popular Jacques Torres chocolate chip cookie and I browned the butter without putting an ice cube in it and just continued with the recipe as written. And it was just very dry. You know, you need that extra bit of moisture back in there. And you know, I think in terms of flavor you do you. And again also if you're thinking about brown butter, it's liquid when it's hot. Look at the recipe. And if the recipe's calling for softened butter, you're gonna wanna take the time to like re solidify that brown butter before you actually continue what the recipe is written.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Vaughn, what I'm hearing so far is you really don't have to get too complicated to make great cookies. You can keep it very simple. You just need a few tools. You need to have your spatula, maybe a spoonula, a good baking sheet, parchment or silicone mat. And then the sort of nice to haves are a cooling rack, a hand mixer or a stand mixer. And those ring molds which I'm very intrigued by those. I want to try those. And, and then do not go off script with the brown butter. If the recipe doesn't call for brown butter, just don't assume that you can do brown butter instead. You're going to have to factor in the loss of liquid in that.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Absolutely. And I think what's nice about baking is that at the end of the day like you still have a cookie like, you know, like it might not be the most perfect thing. Not being afraid of making a mistake is going to like free you up so much mentally in the kitchen.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Well, we're going to take a quick break and then when we're back we're going to dive deeper into the cookie baking process to get the results that you really want.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And we're also going to talk with Vaughn about the most common mistakes people make when baking and how to troubleshoot when you've messed something up.

[Rosie Guerin]

And more listener questions.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Yay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So stick around. We'll be right back.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

It's time for Cyber Monday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail].

[Christine Cyrclassette]

This is Nick Kristof. I'm an opinion columnist for the New.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

York Times, and I'm proud that for more than 100 years, the Times has conducted an annual appeal to raise money for charitable organizations.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Times journalism is fundamentally about vetting the.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

Truth, and in this case, about vetting.

[Rosie Guerin]

Organizations and selecting some of the best.

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To help create opportunity and overcome hardship. I hope you'll consider donating to the.

[Rosie Guerin]

New York Times Communities Fund.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

To learn more, go to nytimes.com nytfund thank you.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Welcome back. Our guest today is Vaughn Vreeland from New York Times Cooking. We're talking about his new book, Cookies. Before the break, we talked about the gear you need to bake, and Vaughn fielded a couple of questions from our listeners.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's right. So we've got a great listener question to get us started. So let's hear from Jennifer.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Hi, wirecutter.

[Rosie Guerin]

This is Jennifer Molina, and I am calling right now from Bilbao, Spain, although normally I live in California. This is a burning cookie question. I always have. I like thick, dense cookies, and sometimes when I'm baking, they actually come out a bit flatter than I would like. I want topography dense, amazing cookies. What am I doing incorrectly? Thanks so much. Let's help Jennifer. I mean, she needs a topographical cookie.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Jennifer is a person after my own heart. I mean, I am a chewy, dense cookie person. So a lot of times when cookies spread a little bit too much, there could be a few things going on. You could overcrowd your pan, and that will create more of this, like, radiation of heat as the cookies around it absorb more heat. Another thing is chilling the dough. If you're not properly chilling the dough or if you, like, have a cookie recipe that you really like the flavor of, you might want to chill the dough before you actually bake it, which will help mitigate that spread.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

And you would recommend scooping them onto the sheet pan and then putting them in the refrigerator.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah, I always scoop and then chill. Some people would probably say, like, no, you need to, like, chill the whole mass of dough because drying out and whatnot, if you wrap it well, it should be fine. But it's so much easier to scoop the dough at room temperature than to scoop it when it's cold. And that is how I've broken cookie scoops before. So, yeah, chilling and then also your ratios. Like, I was testing my cookie for cookie week this year, and it was spreading a little bit more than I wanted. So then I swapped the quantities of granulated sugar and brown sugar, and it made this topographically beautiful mounded cookie and.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

You put in more brown sugar, Put.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

In more of a ratio of brown sugar. So brown sugar is gonna give cookies a lot of that chew because of its moisture. And it's got all that molasses Y notes in it, so it also gives it a beautiful flavor. White sugar helps with the crisp around the edges and also typically creates a spread in cookies. Also, just make sure that you're leavening, like, your baking soda and your baking powder is up to date. Go to the store, maybe buy a new one. If you don't think that you've gotten a new one in the last, like, couple of years. Get a new baking soda, get a new baking powder.

[Rosie Guerin]

I did not think that that would be a thing that would have a big impact if they were past an expiration date. I just. I wouldn't think about baking soda in that way.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Totally.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Leavening can, like, really react differently with certain things.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Well, we actually have another listener question along these lines.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Let's.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Let's hear it.

[Listener Caller]

Hey, wirecutter. My name is Caitlin, and I live in Strasbourg, France, where I am an American expat. So my cookie dilemma is that most French people in my life love when I make cookies because they associate cookies just with chocolate chip. So learning how much versatility there is in cookie making is really fun. But most of the French people in my life have a way lower tolerance for sugar than most of the Americans in my life do. So I sometimes find myself reducing the amount of sugar, but then it messes with the texture. So what advice do you have on reducing the sugar on bean cookies? And also, do you have a great recommendation for a not too overly sweet holiday cookie that I can make to impress my friends?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Thanks, That's a great question. Also, that's so funny, because, like, I studied abroad in France, and there's definitely a difference between a bisquis, which is like, the English would say biscuit, to say cookie. Yeah, there's definitely a difference between that and, like, a cookie. Like, cookie is like a chocolate chip cookie is exactly what she said. So you're thinking about the different forms of sweetener out there. There's obviously brown sugar, white sugar, different types of sugars. There's maple syrup, there's honey. I wouldn't necessarily go with swapping a maple syrup or a honey, because they actually are a little bit sweeter by volume than actual sugar. Sugar. You know, brown sugar does have a little bit of a deeper flavor. So if you have access to brown sugar, I think that that would honestly create, like, a little bit of A richer nuance to the cookie itself, rather than just like a granulated sugar cookie in terms of reducing the amount of sugar. You're right. Like, the sugar's also there to add structure to the cookie. And so I would say tinker with the amount of fat that you're using in the recipe, because that's also going to create more of an issue when you're, like, blending the butter and the sugar together in the beginning phases of mixing before you add the dry ingredients.

[Kyra Blackwell]

See, this is why baking intimidates me, because if you want to mess with one thing, you have to mess with everything else.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah. And then I was thinking about it. It's like, if you go down on the sugar, then you go down on the fat. But then is the cookie gonna be too dry? Because of the one, like, really great secret ingredient for a lot of cookies is water.

[Rosie Guerin]

Okay.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Water actually, like, really does help with a lot of moisture loss. Or, like, if a cookie's too dry, if she's going down the sugar and then subsequently goes down the fat, the cookie's gonna be a little dry because the dry ingredients are kind of overwhelming. That fat that's in there, Add a little bit of water in there and see what happens.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So do you have a specific holiday cookie maybe she could bring to impress her people that's not too sweet?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yes, I would say. I've got this chewy brownie cookie recipe that's topped with flaky salt. So, like, if she's a chocolate lover, I would say go with that because it's not too sweet. The chocolate flavor is, like, really chocolatey. And also what offsets the sweetness also is a little bit of flaky salt on top.

[Rosie Guerin]

You have some really interesting recipes and flavor combinations in the book, some using really savory ingredients you don't necessarily see in cookie recipes all of the time. So, for example, the Filipino inspired recipe for the Adobo chocolate chip that uses a full tablespoon of pink peppercorns, which I thought was very cool. Are there other savory ingredients you think should be on people's radar when it comes to elevating sweet baking?

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Oh, totally. Miso. My mind immediately goes to miso.

[Rosie Guerin]

Talk about miso.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Miso is so good in cookies. It's so good in cookies. It adds this level of savoriness that's just, like, really beautiful. Eric Kim has a gochujang caramel cookie. Very good. They're so good. And Gochjung has, like, a natural sweetness to it. A lot of brands do it just pairs really well and it adds this level of spice to it, which I really love. Olive oil is another thing that people typically associate with savory. But in cookies, in any baked good, but especially like a cookie with olive oil, delicious. It just gives it again, this other level of flavor that you, you don't know you wanted yet.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

So I want to ask you some very quick, lightning round questions around common problems that people have with their cookies, so you quickly diagnose what to do.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Okay?

[Rosie Guerin]

Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Okay. Cookies are too hard.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Over baked.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Cookies are too cakey.

[Rosie Guerin]

Ooh.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Too much flour, too much dry ingredients.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

The cookies spread too much when baking.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Improperly chilled. Or too much fat. Or they're too close together. Okay.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Could be a number of things.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Couldn't be a number of things.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Cookies are burned on the bottom.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Check your sheet tray. Check your oven temp.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Do you mean, like, put a thermometer in there and actually check it 1000%. Okay.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You should buy it.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Don't rely on what your oven is telling you. Get a little thermometer that you can put inside your oven.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Oh, yeah, I think everybody should have an oven thermometer. My oven runs 50 degrees hotter than 50 degrees.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

That's wild.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah, Like, I have to set it to 400 in order to bake something at 350.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I think I have the same problem. And I always am kind of subconsciously accounting for that when I'm cooking.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah. Even, like, nice new ovens, like, we have great ones at the studio. One of them always runs like, if you set it to 350, it will be 400. If they're burning on the bottom, then there's too much heat that's coming in contact with the sheet tray before the rest of it can get baked through.

[Rosie Guerin]

Be kind to yourself. It might not be a you problem.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, no, totally know your equipment too.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I wish there were more answers in life like that.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Yeah, 1,000%.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, Vaughn, well, before we wrap, we always ask our guests one final question. What's the last thing you bought that.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

You really loved my labubu? No, I mean, I saw one, I.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Was like, what is that? I've never seen see one in real life. And now I've seen my second one today.

[Rosie Guerin]

Von, thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really fun.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

Thank you. Oh, I had the best time. I could talk about cookies all day.

[Rosie Guerin]

What a lovely conversation with Von Delight.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

He is great. I would love to receive a box of cookies from him just in case he's listening to this episode.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I was kind of hoping he'd bring one in today.

[Rosie Guerin]

What are you taking away from this conversation?

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Well, I was reminded that I really should have a thermometer in my oven. I forgot that I should do that and I, I will be doing that because it's not just an important thing for baking, but it's also for cooking. So I don't have to live in mystery anymore.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You knew you couldn't trust your own oven. Mine, because I'm not much of a baker and as I've discussed at length on this podcast, I don't really eat sweets because I'm non dairy and whatever, whatever. I think I would for the scale that he recommended and a spoonula because those are things that you can use for both baking and cooking. And you know, I love a good, versatile kitchen tool.

[Rosie Guerin]

I think the scale's another one of those things where you are mitigating variability. For me, I am gonna grow up and get a cooling rack.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, grow up.

[Rosie Guerin]

Come on. I know.

[Listener Caller]

Come on.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's just like. And I'm gonna get one that fits in a half sheet pan. I think it just sounds like it's worth it. Even if I use it twice a year.

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's not just going to sit in your kitchen. You'll use it.

[Rosie Guerin]

Von Vreeland's book is called Cookies. He is also host of the New York Times Cooking YouTube series and newsletter called Bake Time. Check those out. If you want to learn anything else about the products we recommended today from Wirecutter, check out our website and thank you so, so much for listening. Thank you.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

Thanks.

[Rosie Guerin]

Bye. Bye. The Wirecutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Matty Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Kathryn Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Elisheba Etoupe, Rowan Namisto, Katherine Anderson and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyrclassette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. Thank you for listening.

[Vaughn Vreeland]

I'm not a too sweet person. Like I just asked my boyfriend. No.

[Dell Technologies Announcer]

It's time for Cyber Monday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features. It's the PC that helps you do more faster. Plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping price match guarantee and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list list. Shop [e-mail] deals.