Let's Go To Butter School

Summary

The Wirecutter Show – Episode: "Let's Go To Butter School"

Release Date: November 20, 2024

Hosts:

• Christine Cyr Clisette
• Kyra Blackwell
• Rosie Guerin

Guest:

• Leslie Stockton – Senior Kitchen Writer at Wirecutter, experienced baker, and culinary expert with over 20 years in professional kitchens and food media.

---

1. Introduction and Hosts' Butter Preferences

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in a playful debate about their butter preferences. Christine Cyr Clisette expresses her love for butter, while co-host Kyra Blackwell reveals she doesn't consume butter due to dietary restrictions, sparking a lively conversation about their differing tastes.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: "I love butter." (02:47)

2. Welcoming Leslie Stockton

Leslie Stockton is introduced as a seasoned expert in kitchen gear and baking. With a rich background, including working at Martha Stewart Living and Everyday Food magazines, Leslie brings extensive knowledge to the discussion on butter.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: "Leslie is a phenomenal baker. I love, love her pies." (06:21)

3. Understanding Butter Quality

Grass-Fed vs. Grain-Fed Cows

Leslie delves into the fundamental differences between butter derived from grass-fed versus grain-fed cows. She explains that grass-fed cows produce butter with higher beta carotene levels, resulting in a richer yellow color and superior taste.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "Cows that graze at pasture grass has beta carotene, which is what gives butter that butter yellow color." (08:29)

European vs. Domestic Butter

The conversation shifts to the distinction between European and domestic butters. European butters, such as Kerrygold and Isigny Sainte-Mère, are highlighted for their superior quality, attributed to traditional farming practices and cultured fermentation processes.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "Grass fed cows make delicious milk. Period, case closed." (12:12)

Cultured Butter

Leslie introduces the concept of cultured butter, prevalent in Europe, which undergoes a fermentation process that enhances its flavor complexity with subtle zing and nutty notes.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "Cultured butter gives it this little zing little treble note at the end in the finish." (12:32)

4. Taste Testing: Key Findings

Methodology

The hosts conducted a comprehensive taste test of 17 different butters, assessing them in two main categories: salted for eating and unsalted for baking. Butter was evaluated at both cold and room temperatures on various breads to determine spreadability and flavor profiles.

Testing Process Highlights:

• Spreadability: Assessing how butter spreads on sourdough and potato bread.
• Mouthfeel: Evaluating the texture and aftertaste, whether greasy or smooth.
• Flavor Complexity: Noting natural flavors versus added "natural flavorings" in lower-quality butters.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "When it was room temp, it did leave an oily mouthfeel. When things like that happen, it's just like mind blown." (18:53)

5. Butter in Cooking and Baking

Pie Crusts

Leslie emphasizes the importance of using high-quality butter in pie crusts to achieve a rich, cohesive flavor that complements tart fillings like apples and cinnamon.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "It adds more complexity to the finished product. You're not just getting the tartness of the apple and the cinnamon." (28:32)

Cookies

While high-quality butter isn't always necessary for basic cookies, Leslie notes that premium butters can enhance flavor complexity in more intricate recipes.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "If you wanna make a toll house cookie, I'm not gonna be too picky about it. But for more complex cookies, a better butter makes a difference." (30:04)

Pasta

Testing butter's performance with noodles, Leslie explains how quality butter emulsifies with starches, avoiding greasy residues and enhancing overall flavor.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "The heat from the noodles...does it emulsify well or separate and give you like this grease slick?" (19:24)

6. Storing Butter Properly

Proper storage is crucial to maintain butter's quality. Leslie advises using airtight containers to prevent absorption of fridge odors and recommends using a butter bell for countertop storage to keep butter fresh without exposure to air.

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "Butter is fat. Fat absorbs smells...keep your butter in an airtight container." (32:32)

7. Pairing Butter with Recipes: Rapid Fire

In a rapid-fire segment, Leslie provides quick recommendations on which butters to use for various recipes:

• Fruit Pie: Kerrygold
• Brown Butter Noodles: Kirkland Unsalted
• Bulk Christmas Cookies: Kirkland Unsalted
• Buttercream Frosting: Vegan Butter
• Best Overall for Eating: Cultured European Butter

Notable Quote:

• Leslie: "Cultured and Kerrygold offers more complexity and richness, respectively." (35:05)

8. Final Thoughts and Takeaways

High-Quality Ingredients Matter

The episode reinforces that investing in high-quality butter significantly enhances both flavor and texture in culinary applications. European and grass-fed butters stand out for their superior qualities.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: "European butter isn't just fancy, it is actually better." (37:04)

Limitations of Vegan Butters

Despite advancements, vegan butters still fall short in replicating the rich, complex flavors and textures of traditional dairy butters, especially in baking.

Notable Quote:

• Kyra: "Vegan butters just are not going to live up to the real thing." (37:04)

9. Closing Remarks

The hosts conclude the episode with reflections on their butter journey, expressing newfound appreciation for high-quality butters and sharing humor about their playful debates. Leslie Stockton's expertise leaves the listeners with actionable insights on selecting, using, and storing butter effectively.

Notable Quote:

• Christine: "I personally feel ruined. Like, I can't go back to cheap butter after tasting that butter." (36:43)

---

Conclusion

"Let's Go To Butter School" offers an in-depth exploration of butter, guiding listeners through the nuances of butter quality, selection, and application in cooking and baking. With expert insights from Leslie Stockton and engaging discussions among the hosts, the episode serves as a comprehensive resource for anyone looking to elevate their culinary experiences with superior butter choices.

For more detailed reviews and product recommendations, visit nytimes.com or check the show notes for direct links.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This podcast is brought to you by Apple Pay. When you've got a gift list to finish, the last thing you want to do is take out your wallet a million times. Instead, pay the Apple way. With Apple Pay, you can pay with a phone you're already holding. Just double click, smile at face ID tap, and you're done. The people in line behind you will thank you. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services, llc, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer.

[Kyra Blackwell]

From the New York Times, you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Hey, everyone, it's the Wirecutter Show. I'm Christine Cyr Clisette.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from the New York Times.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Each week, we bring you expert advice from Our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

[Kyra Blackwell]

This episode of the Wirecutter show is called let's Go to Butter School.

[Rosie Guerin]

Christine. Kyra, I just today learned that you are not, in fact, the same person. That you have at least one big difference between you. It's epic.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Never.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

No, never. We're totally aligned on everything.

[Kyra Blackwell]

The same twins.

[Rosie Guerin]

I know for a fact that I'm right about this. Two strong stances on a type of food, which is. Christine is a butter fiend.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, I love butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

And, Kyra, you don't even eat butter.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, I don't understand this. Kyra, this is weird.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm sorry. I am.

[Rosie Guerin]

Powder keg. This is a powder keg.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

No, I shouldn't say that. It's not weird. I just mean I.

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's a shame.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I want to know why. Why don't you eat butter?

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's a dietary thing. Unfortunately, it wasn't by choice.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah, before you neg her.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

How dare you, Cristine, I'm so, so. No, I'm kidding. It's lame. I'm not even gonna lie. It sucks to not be able to eat butter. Especially when you go out to eat.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Cause it's on everything, right? My family loves butter. That's why I was so excited to see one of our newest food reviews. A taste test we just did at work. We tasted butter. We did salted and unsalted butter.

[Leslie Stockton]

Mm.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Tasting butter.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Tasting butter. Kyra, I'm sure you were sad to miss that day, but our kitchen team tried 17 butters that are widely available all over the country, and they figured out which ones are the best for sp spreading on bread. Which ones are the best for cooking with and baking with. And that's perfect timing because we're just about to Thanksgiving and it's time to bake some pies for a lot of people. And I'm personally really looking forward to my favorite Thanksgiving dish, which is buttermilk biscuits slathered in butter.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, but do you really need different butters for eating, baking, cooking? That just seems like a little much.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, come on, Kyra, don't be a butter hater.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I mean, I attempt to bake, but mainly I cook. And I do use alternative butters like vegan butters. I like Earth Balance. To me, it kind of does seem like old school margarine. I don't really understand the difference, but it's fine. Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about that today. But really, the star of the show is traditional butter, right?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah, traditional butter. But we did actually at the same time that we published this regular butter guide, we also did a vegan butter guide. So we do have some vegan recommendations.

[Rosie Guerin]

Honestly, even if you're not on Team Butter, you have to admit butter does make everything taste and look better. So I want to know, what are we doing today? Who are we talking to?

[Kyra Blackwell]

So today we're bringing on Leslie Stockton, who is one of our longtime senior kitchen writers and a friend of the podcast. She's reviewed everything from peanut butter to grills for wire cutter. She's got 20 plus years working in pro kitchens, developing recipes and testing gear. So we talked with Leslie last week about the essential kitchen gear you need for Thanksgiving. But in that episode, we really didn't get into baking. Leslie is an ace pie baker. For more than 15 years, she's made at least three pies for every Thanksgiving dinner and she's developed pie recipes for magazines.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

That's right. Leslie is a phenomenal baker. I love, love her pies. After the break, we're going to talk with Leslie about how to pick out really good butter the next time you're in the supermarket. We'll be right back.

[Podcast Announcer]

This podcast is brought to you by Apple Pay. During the holidays, I'm a big online shopper thanks to Apple Pay, and that's because I don't have to waste time typing all my info into those long checkout forms. Plus, Apple Pay is made to be secure thanks to the built in technology of Face id, which is designed so that only I can authorize payments this season, do what I do and pay the Apple way. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services llc, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

What I like about the New York Times app is how much variety it gives me.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I start my day with a cup of coffee and wordle and Connections, which is all in New York Times app.

[Leslie Stockton]

It's well organized, it's multimedia.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I can also save my articles easily in this area.

[Leslie Stockton]

I can add politics or Paul Krugman or Jamelle Bouie. I like him.

[Rosie Guerin]

I like that the cooking tab on.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Top is really easily accessible. So if I'm on my way home and I'm just thinking, oh, what am I gonna make for dinner?

[Leslie Stockton]

I'll just quickly go on to cooking and say, oh, I've got this in my pantry. The photos are just phenomenal. I have my saved articles, my entire history, which is actually very interesting. I'm just scrolling through the home tab. There's already so much stuff I'm. Oh, interesting.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I spent a lot of time doing Wirecutter. I like that.

[Leslie Stockton]

It's just right there. I loved how much content it exposed me to. Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

The New York Times app. All the Times all in one place.

[Leslie Stockton]

Download it [e-mail] app.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter show. Our guest today is Leslie Stockton, and she's been reviewing kitchen gear for Wirecutter since 2013. Before joining the Wirecutter kitchen team as a staff writer, she was a restaurant cook, a food editor at Martha Stewart Living and Everyday Food magazines, a cookbook contributor, a food stylist, and a culinary producer. Her resume is stacked. She also headed up our recent taste test of butter at Wirecutter.

[Rosie Guerin]

What can't she do?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Leslie, I'm so pumped to have you back here. We talked to you last week all about the sort of essential Thanksgiving things that you need to have for making the turkey and all the sides, which was awesome. Thank you for coming then.

[Leslie Stockton]

Thank you for having me.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

And this week we are going to dig into a little bit more of a niche topic, but one that also relates to holiday cooking and baking, which is butter. This is a huge topic. You just finished a review of 17 butters. But before we get into talking about butter, I want to just take a walk down memory lane because, Leslie, you and I Met maybe like 15 years ago when we worked at Martha Stewart. We were working on a cookbook together. I remember that you really developed a lot of things that involved butter. So I remember you worked on recipes that involved making pies slab pies and other delicious treats using butter.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right. I used a lot of butter. We used a lot of butter in developing that cookbook. We used to joke that the vegetable purees in that book were 50% butter because they kind of were.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

That's true. There was a French chef in charge of that book and it was all butter, all the time.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes. At Martha, if you're cutting a solid fat into some flour and sugar, it's butter. It's never shortening my whole. Baking pies. Cause, you know, my grandma taught me how to make pies. She used Crisco. I learned how to make pie crust with butter at Martha Stewart.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

And they were delicious pies.

[Leslie Stockton]

Delicious.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

They were delicious. Now, butter is a really big topic. It's a complex ingredient that I think is more complex than people realize. And there's a lot that goes into what makes a. But a butter that gives a butter its flavor and texture, which is what you sort of dug into in this review that you just did. You worked with one of our other kitchen writers, Kira Murray Jordan. And this episode, I want you to essentially take us to butter school. We are going to drag our dairy free friend Kyra here along for the.

[Rosie Guerin]

Ride, kicking and screaming.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So first question, this is our freshman year. Walk us through. What makes a good versus a bad butter?

[Leslie Stockton]

Well, it all starts with the cream. We've all heard that you are what you eat, but you are also what you eat eats. And so what that means is butter churned from cream from a cow that has had a grass fed diet is far superior to a grain fed cow's resulting butter. And I will elaborate on that. So cows that graze at pasture grass has beta carotene, which is what gives butter that butter yellow color.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I always thought it was dye.

[Leslie Stockton]

Sometimes it is, I think.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yes, sometimes it is.

[Leslie Stockton]

So we'll get to that later. Stick a pin in that. Whereas cows that are fed a grain diet, there's no beta carotene in grain. And so if you look at two sticks of conventional commercial butter, you know, store brand or whatever, and then like, I don't know, some Kerrygold or some European style butter, you can see the difference. That stick is very pale, but it's also kind of hard because grain fed cows produce butter that's kind of crumbly almost. Whereas grass fed butter has this smooth, like even right out of the refrigerator. I mean, it just like cuts like, well, you know, butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

Cows eat grass.

[Leslie Stockton]

Cows should eat grass.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah, cows make milk.

[Leslie Stockton]

Cows make milk.

[Rosie Guerin]

Milk turns into cream. Cream turns into Butter cream rises to the top.

[Leslie Stockton]

The cream is skimmed off, churned into butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

So you're saying that the process for grass fed cows, you're getting that grassy flavor almost in the final product.

[Leslie Stockton]

Sometimes you get like a straight up pasture funk, which I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. It's awesome, it's delicious. And sometimes the grass can impart like a hazelnutty, sometimes walnut. Like it's crazy. You are what you eat. Eat.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Is there like a tell for the flavor or texture of a lower quality butter? Like one of these sort of grain fed butters.

[Leslie Stockton]

It's crumbly, like it's hard and it kind of tastes like nothing, especially if it's unsalted. Cause salt is a driver of flavor. So if you get salted butter, you will get more of a flavor cause the salt drives the flavor. But with these less expensive butters you will find that they add quote unquote, natural flavoring because there isn't much flavor to it. That's where you kind of veer into like that movie theater popcorn butter type of thing.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

But we can, which is like a mood. I feel like that is not always the worst thing. Like if you're actually making popcorn, but.

[Rosie Guerin]

That flavor is added because the actual grain fed cream that because of butter doesn't have enough flavor.

[Leslie Stockton]

Exactly.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Let's continue on this educational journey that we have embarked on. And I want to talk a little bit about the difference between domestic and European butters. I noticed reading our guide that all of the favorite butters in this guide are all European. So we've got most of them. Most of them. Okay, so but the like the top tier ones are European.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

You've got Kerrygold, you've got. Let me butcher this for everyone.

[Leslie Stockton]

Isigny Sainte Mer, Issigny Saint Mer.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, wonderful. Okay, that one's a French one. The first one is Irish Kerrygold. Right. And then Finlandia, which I would assume is Finnish. So you've got these northern European countries. This is where these butters are coming from. Why?

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah, what are they doing to the cows over there?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

What are they happy cows?

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, yes, they're grass fed. Because Europeans understand that good dairy comes from grass fed cows. It's actually better for you physically. Grass fed cows make delicious milk.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Right.

[Leslie Stockton]

Period, Case closed. But also that French one, that is a cultured butter. Cultured butter is very popular. And I'm going to explain what it is. Basically most butter that you're going to buy in France is cultured butter. And what they do is they Ferment the cream for 24 to 48 hours. It's a light fermentation before churning it. And what that does is it gives it this little tiny little flick, little zing little treble note at the end in the finish. And it really rounds it out, especially if you're dealing with a really nice butter that has those hazelnut notes that it gets from the pasture and nice crystals of salt. And then you get this little surprise at the end that just kind of like rounds it all out.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So it's like one step towards cheese.

[Leslie Stockton]

One step towards cheese.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, but what about the other parts of the European butter that makes it better? Because they're not all cultured.

[Leslie Stockton]

No, no, no. It's the grass.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Leslie Stockton]

As we said before, the beta carotene gives it that rich yellow color. I remember my Irish friend when she moved to the States for a few years, she turns to me and says, why does your butter look like lard? And I'm like, well, because it does. So that's a big difference right there. European butter has a slightly lower water content than American butter, so it's richer. I think people assume that the lower water content in European butter is the reason why it's like kind of smoother when you cut into it, especially if it's refrigerated. And it's just has like that velvety smear. But that's because of the grass fed diet. That's the pastured cows.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So these European butters are kind of expensive. I've noticed. I think that our picks range from five to $7 for two sticks, like a half a pound, which. That's a lot of money. If you're like my family and they eat four sticks a week. Were there cheaper butters that you liked than these? These kind of higher tier ones?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. Trader Joe's European style cultured butter, $4.70. For if price is a concern, go to Trader Joe's. Get the European style cultured butter. It is not, quote, unquote, cheap by any sense, because you know, you can go to the supermarket and get a store brand pound of butter for $4.70. Yes, some of these butters are very expensive. However, if you really love Kerrygold and you have a Costco membership, you can get four blocks. That's the equivalent to eight sticks at Costco for about $14. And compared to retail, you're basically buying three, getting one free. But then Costco also has their house brand, Kirkland Grass Fed Butter. Salted. It only comes in salted. And that one's even less expensive. I think that one's like 11 for four blocks. Again, the equivalent to eight sticks. I think that one's like New Zealand dairy, I think. So if you have a Costco membership and you know you really want, like, a really nice quality butter, you can get those without breaking the bank. Consider that that's salted, and that is salted. That's for eating. For baking, Costco's Kirkland unsalted is a screaming deal. I think you get £4 for, like, under $10.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Wow.

[Leslie Stockton]

That's insane.

[Kyra Blackwell]

And it's good.

[Leslie Stockton]

And it's good. I mean, it. It made a flaky pie crust that I would be proud to serve. And it made a great shortbread. If you need butter for, like, you know how some people do, like, these massive holiday cookie bakes and just, like, treat bakes, like, go pick up some Kirkland for that.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Love it.

[Rosie Guerin]

So I'm curious how you've taste tested all of these butters. What were you doing? Were you just chomping on sticks? Were you making butter judgment free zone?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. No. So we did research. We culled down to 17 butters. Cause it's just so much to eat. And palate fatigue is real. At some point, you're like, I don't know anymore. There were two categories of testing. There was eating, and there was baking. For eating butter, we did salted butter. For baking, we did unsalted. So that's. It's very important to make that distinction.

[Rosie Guerin]

So is that partially because there's usually salt called for in baking recipes?

[Leslie Stockton]

Exactly. Cause baking recipes are written for unsalted butter. But for the purposes of this guide, we designated salted butter as eating butter and unsalted butter as baking butter.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. So we thought 17 was on the high end, but we muscled through it. So 17 for the first round of tasting, we tasted each butter cold and at room temp, both on bread. We had sourdough bread, and we had sliced potato bread. Now, why we had that soft sliced bread is because is it going to rip that bread? You know, what you get is, like, what is the texture of these butters cold versus room temp? And also what flavors are we getting from the butters when they're at those two different temperatures? And there was a real difference. One of the butters, I can't remember which it was, but when it was cold, it was still spreadable and nice, and the fat dissipated very well. And it didn't leave a mouthfeel. However, when it was room temp, it did leave an oily mouthfeel. When things like that happen, it's just like mind blown.

[Rosie Guerin]

How do you cleanse your palate?

[Leslie Stockton]

Personally, I do seltzer with a giant squeeze of lemon.

[Rosie Guerin]

So how else did you test? You tested for spreadability on bread. You tested straight up.

[Leslie Stockton]

The butters that just did not pass. We just eliminated and then we cooked noodles and just tossed them with some butter and ate them. And first of all, so comforting. It was such a cozy day.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

It's my kids dream meal. That's what they want to eat every meal.

[Leslie Stockton]

Honestly, it's still my dream meal and I can't handle pasta anymore. But like. And so you have the heat from the noodles. So it's like. So we did cold room temp and now we're tasting it hot but not melted and separated cause it's still kind of emulsified with the starches from the noodles. And you know what kind of flavors come through there. Does it emulsify well or does it kind of separate and kind of give you like this grease slick? Does it leave behind like an oily mouthfeel that is stubborn and will not go away?

[Rosie Guerin]

And then in an unsalted baking category.

[Leslie Stockton]

Shortbread first because it's a baking recipe that uses very few ingredients. It's butter, flour, sugar and salt. So you really taste the butter. Our favorite shortbreads were kind of like ripply towards the edge but had like this flaky buttery crumb interior. But it was also like kind of sandy and crumbly at the same like it was just like this perfect Venn diagram. Right.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

How did I miss this day of testing in the office?

[Leslie Stockton]

I don't know.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I love shortbread. It's my favorite cookie.

[Leslie Stockton]

We still have a bunch in the freezer.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Well, don't tell me that. But maybe I'll get some next week.

[Rosie Guerin]

And then, and then pie.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Did you make pie?

[Leslie Stockton]

I made pie crust. So I blind baked pie crust. And blind baking means when you have to make a pie and the filling is not cooked in that pie, what you have to do is what you call blind baking a pie crust. So you roll out your pie dough, put it in the plate, flute your edge. That means making it pretty on the edge. And then you put some parchment paper down and you fill it with beans, pie weights, whatever to like kind of weight it down and you bake that until it's like kind of dry. It doesn't feel like dough on the surface. And then you lift all those pie weights out, you put em to the side, you put that pie crust back in the oven until it's, like, thoroughly baked through, nice and dry on the top, caramelly beautiful on the bottom, which you really can't see unless you use a glass pie plate. But, yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

No soggy bottoms.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah, no soggy bottoms.

[Leslie Stockton]

We don't do soggy bottom pies in.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

This very, very important.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Wait, so you just test pie crust on its own, no filling?

[Leslie Stockton]

Basically, yes. I think I put out some, like, jams or something, but yeah, I mean, we were basically just munching on pie crust.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

All right, now that we've completed our Butters 101 course, I think it's time for us to do a pop quiz.

[Rosie Guerin]

Let's do a taste test.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Ooh, yes.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'll just be sitting here watching.

[Leslie Stockton]

So I brought three of our salted butter picks, and so we have some baguette, and I want y'all to try em. I think they have come up to room temp, and it's a little afternoon snack for us. So let's go.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Guilty. Little pleasure for the afternoon. I'm very excited about this.

[Rosie Guerin]

Let's not look at the labels, though.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So that we can do this. Totally.

[Leslie Stockton]

You don't have to.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

As one would in a testing.

[Leslie Stockton]

You don't have to look at the labels.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

The cutters offices. We're all gonna take a chunk of this. This amazing baguette that I brought, which is.

[Rosie Guerin]

Did you go to Paris this morning?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So I've got this one. Okay. I have. I'm trying to keep track of this. So I've got. I've got three butters in front of me. I've got number one on the far left, number two in the middle, and number three on the far right.

[Rosie Guerin]

So what are you getting? What are you. I'm getting. Yeah, go ahead.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Salty. I taste the salt.

[Rosie Guerin]

This is. This is a little movie theater y for me.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Okay, I'm going for the second one.

[Kyra Blackwell]

All right, what are you getting?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Ooh, this one. I like this second one. It's, like. It's kind of rich. It's salty, but not too salty. The first one was a little saltier than I like, but I really like the mouth feel of this second one.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What does that mean? Like, it's. It's soft.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

It, like, coats my mouth in just the right amount.

[Rosie Guerin]

Silky. I agree with that.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah, it's like. It's like a. It's got, like, a really nice texture.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's nice. It's a lot lighter. It's a little more. It feels like cloud, like, to me.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Cloud Like, I like that it's smooth.

[Rosie Guerin]

It's giving me a less buttery.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Pronounced butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah. Butter flavor in a way that I would like.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

It's a little bit more subtle. I think it's a little bit more subtle.

[Leslie Stockton]

I would say that number one is a little hoofier.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Hoofy.

[Rosie Guerin]

I didn't like the hoofy.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

Okay, here's the third one.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I do like the hoof.

[Rosie Guerin]

This is the palest one.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

That's the palest one. Yeah. I want to church from bread.

[Rosie Guerin]

I feel like I'm in France.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, my gosh.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm getting beta carotene. This is. This tastes like I died and went to the pearly gates. And Peter was like, do you want a welcome snack? And I was like, you know what? Give me a piece of sourdough with your best butter. And he was like, I got you, girl. And this is what he gave me. Heavenly.

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, so the big reveal, the one that we are cooing over currently, is it.

[Rosie Guerin]

I'm fighting you to take this home.

[Leslie Stockton]

You can have. It's yours. It's yours.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Now, where can you get this? Can you get it at Whole Foods?

[Leslie Stockton]

You can get. I found it at Whole Foods. I have found it at random supermarkets all over New York. But Whole Foods is a pretty safe place.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

But we also checked, like, around the country, and people can find this from all over, right?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah. This is like. This is widely available.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Okay, so tell us, what's the second one we tasted that we liked a little bit more than the first one, but less than the third one?

[Leslie Stockton]

That's Kerrygold.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Kerrygold. Nothing wrong with that. That was good.

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, so what I wanna ask is the ease in ye sail me is cultured and Kerrygold is not cultured. Right. So I know that's right. Do you see, like, the complexity of the flavor? Do you get like that? Because, like, Kerrygold is kind of this platonic ideal of this dairy rich butter, right? You get some of the grass and you get some of that nuttiness that you get from cows that have been at pasture. But with the cultured, you get a little more roundness. You get a little zing at the end. And that really actually does come through when you bake with it, which is just. I mean, blows my mind. Am I gonna spend $7 to make a pie crust? Possibly. Depends on how rich I'm feeling and who I wanna impress.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

But I would get it to eat it on bread.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

What about the first one?

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, so the. Is the Kirkland grass fed and it's hoofy. When I say hoofy. Barnyardy. But I love that. That's why I love.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I liked it. It's interesting, right?

[Leslie Stockton]

I love Pecorino Romano because, like, it is barnyardy.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I like a barnyardy cheese. But I think, like. And you know what, if I hadn't tasted this Kirkland next to these other butters, I might have been like, oh, my gosh, this is really great. Yum, yum, yum. Especially for the price. I mean, it's like half the price of the other two.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right?

[Rosie Guerin]

I was not wild about the mouthfeel on the Kirkland.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, well, look, it's not as good as Kerrygold, but it's still very good.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Okay, so just to recap, what makes a good butter is the quality of the milk you want. Ideally, grass fed milk, if you can find some cultured butter because it's gonna have a little extra zing, little pop to the flavor. If you're shopping in a store and you can't find any of our picks, you want to avoid brands that have natural flavoring in the. In the ingredient list. You want to be looking potentially for grass fed on the label. And usually those are going to be a little bit more expensive.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So now we're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, we're going to move beyond our basic butter education and we're going to talk with you, Leslie, about holiday baking with butter. Whether you're making pies for Thanksgiving or cute little holiday cookies, you're going to want to know Leslie's tips for when you want a good butter and when you can get away with a cheaper one.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Be right back.

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[Kyra Blackwell]

Welcome back to the Wirecutter Show, Leslie. You've made a lot of pies. Like a lot of pies, you bake pies for this butter review. You've developed pie recipes for magazines, and you also bake at least three every year for Thanksgiving. Do you Always make your crust with butter.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes, every single time.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay. Why?

[Leslie Stockton]

Because it tastes delicious. And even if it's like a graham cracker crust, it's like it's butter.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

What's the difference in quality or like, the taste and the texture? If you make it with really high quality butter like we just tasted, versus sort of a lower quality butter, it's.

[Leslie Stockton]

Gonna taste more like that dairy rich butter flavor that y'all just experienced in your mouth. And that flavor, really, it's such a nice compliment to tart fruit, you know, especially apples. Butter and apples and cinnamon. Come on, y'all.

[Rosie Guerin]

So you're just not getting as punchy flavor. You're not getting that necessarily, that richness coming through. If you're using a lower quality butter.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Right.

[Leslie Stockton]

It adds more complexity to the finished product. You're not just getting the tartness of the apple and the cinnamon. Getting this sweet cream butter flavor to like, round it all out and make it a cohesive thing.

[Rosie Guerin]

What about other fats like you? You mentioned that your grandmother used to cook with Crisco. Mine did too. Her pies were unmatched. And this is. But this is going back, you know, a couple.

[Leslie Stockton]

But also Crisco changed their formula. It was softer. It cut into flour differently. The flake on the pastry was just. Everything was just different. Now it's still good for frying chicken. I will give it that. But yeah, something shifted in Crisco that's so interesting.

[Rosie Guerin]

So if my mama was still here and she made her same recipe that she made for me in the 90s today, it would not necessarily taste the same.

[Leslie Stockton]

She'd be cursing under her breath.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yeah, my grandma's always like, the food is so different these days. Every time she cooks anything.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's so fascinating. What about cookies? Do you need to use high quality butter and cookies in the same way that you do in a pie?

[Leslie Stockton]

It depends on the cookie. I think if I'm making a toll house cookie, I'm not gonna be too picky about it. But if I wanna make. Because like, you have, you know, the vanilla, you have the chocolate chips, you have the walnuts. You don't have just regular white sugar, but you also have brown sugar involved. And like, all of those things just clobber a butter. Now if you want to use a really expensive butter and a toll house cookie, invite me over. Cause I want one of those. But I would go for like a less expensive butter. And butter affects how a cookie, like, spreads. Right. Cause like, a shortening cookie is just gonna hold its shape.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Y'all know I don't bake, but let's just say theoretically, I wanna branch out beyond my sad little vegan lemon squares. I'd have to use alternative butters. And I know the kitchen team just published a guide to the best vegan butters written by Mace Dent Johnson, and I would love to know what you found through that testing.

[Leslie Stockton]

I think vegan butter is great because a lot of people don't do dairy or animal products and it has come a long way. Mase did notice that even though the country crock plant butter with olive oil was like the closest thing that behaved similar to butter that they tested, it was not a perfect dupe. And the cookies that they made with them still like, spread too much. So as much as companies have tried, like, there's just no plant based dupe yet.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Waiting for the day. I hope they hear this.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I'm hoping for you too, Kyra.

[Rosie Guerin]

I was intrigued to see the Trader Joe's one. That's the one that we keep at home because I try not to eat butter on the regular, which is why this salted butter is such a treat. But I think, you know, it was interesting to see the Trader Joe's as a cost effective option for the vegan butter on that list that Mase made. This is a question I've long wondered, Leslie, how are you supposed to store butter? Is it okay to keep it on the counter? Is essentially what I'm wanting to know.

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay. Yes. The receptacle and the frequency of use are very crucial here. And temperature, because if your house gets really hot, your butter's gonna go rancid. Yes. You can store butter on the counter. Get a butter bell. Do we know what a butter bell is?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Nope.

[Leslie Stockton]

Okay, so a butter bell is. It's a crock and it has a lid. Connected to the lid is like this bell shaped receptacle where you put the butter. You smear the butter in there and you put a little bit of water in the bottom of the crock and then that butter goes upside down. And so the surface of the butter touches the water so it doesn't get contact with air. Okay. That helps to keep it from going rancid oxidation, what have you. Now it still doesn't matter if your house is hot or if your kitchen is very hot. You have to be going through that butter probably, like in a week. You should probably fill your butter bell like once a week.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

That's like never a problem for me.

[Leslie Stockton]

Right.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

It would be like three or four times a week.

[Leslie Stockton]

No, totally. And you can get a bigger butter bill.

[Rosie Guerin]

Well, to that end, if. Christine, you're going through so much butter, can you freeze butter?

[Leslie Stockton]

Oh, I freeze butter all the time. I buy the Kerrygold from Costco and I put it in the freezer.

[Kyra Blackwell]

But what if people just have the ick when it comes to leaving dairy out? What if you really feel.

[Leslie Stockton]

Do you keep your butter in the fridge?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Any special container for that?

[Leslie Stockton]

I like to. Okay, so butter is fat. Fat absorbs smells. If your fridge frequently holds pungent foods, it's probably your best bet to keep your butter in an airtight container. Tupperware, what have you. So I've bought butter a few times from various markets in Brooklyn. And I know when they clean their walk ins with fabuloso because the butter has absorbed the fabuloso smell. And now I have fabuloso in my mouth.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Ew.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's not it.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Disgusting.

[Leslie Stockton]

I hate fabuloso so much and I get so mad when my butter tastes like fabuloso.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I feel like, given your immense butter expertise at this point, very curious. What butters you would pair with different recipes. You know, you did so much testing. You guys did so many different types of recipes. And you also are just a very experienced cook. So I'm going to run through a lightning round of questions with you, rapid fire, to see what type of butter you would use for different recipes. I don't want you to overthink this. Just tell us immediately what the butter that you would pair with this is. Okay, you ready?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

All right. Fruit pie. The Kerrygold butter on bread. Brown butter noodles. Bulk Christmas cookies where you have to buy a ton of butter.

[Leslie Stockton]

Kirkland unsalted.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Nice buttercream frosting.

[Leslie Stockton]

Kirkland unsalted baking for your worst enemy. Vegan butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

Not even fabuloso.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Fabuloso would be the pick or fabuloso butter.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Okay, Leslie, before we wrap, we like to ask our guests one final question. What's the last thing you bought that you've really loved?

[Leslie Stockton]

I had a lot of deadlines approaching, and gummy candies are my deadline comfort food. So I walked down to Bonbon in the Brooklyn. The Brooklyn I know.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Is that the Swedish place?

[Leslie Stockton]

Yes.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, my gosh. Best gummy.

[Kyra Blackwell]

It's Rodney's favorite.

[Leslie Stockton]

You. I know, I know. And I grabbed a bag and a scoop and I made myself. I bought $50 worth of gummies and salted licorice.

[Rosie Guerin]

Before you judge her, did you make that deadline? I did.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Well, when you do what you gotta.

[Leslie Stockton]

Do, you know that place is my happy place.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So delicious.

[Kyra Blackwell]

So good.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah, go get it. Okay.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Leslie. This is a treat.

[Rosie Guerin]

Thanks, Leslie.

[Leslie Stockton]

Thank you. I loved it. Thank you.

[Rosie Guerin]

This was my favorite episode that we've ever done.

[Kyra Blackwell]

You like that taste test?

[Rosie Guerin]

I can't quite put my finger on.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Why, but lingering flavor of this episode.

[Rosie Guerin]

Leslie is so much fun. Leslie is so knowledgeable. I feel honestly armed with some really good ideas.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I personally feel ruined. Like, I can't go back to cheap butter after tasting that butter.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What was the name of the really fancy one?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Is that what it was?

[Kyra Blackwell]

Now spell it.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Oh, no.

[Rosie Guerin]

What are your takeaways from this episode?

[Kyra Blackwell]

For me, unfortunately, I think my personal takeaway was that vegan butters just are not going to live up to the real thing, and I just have to get over that.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah, sorry. There are just some things you have to accept in life, you know, and move on.

[Kyra Blackwell]

The butters that you guys tasted looked really good. So, like, I can look at a butter now and tell you probably, like, oh, that one has movie popcorn flavoring in it because it looks a little too yellow versus the good stuff.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Well, actually, color was one of my takeaways. I always assumed that the yellow color was dye and that meant a cheaper butter. But now I know that some of the nicer butters are actually getting that yellow color from the quality of the milk. When it's a grass fed cow, they produce, you know, milk that's gonna give that yellow color. So that was one of my takeaways. And then my other takeaway was that European butter isn't just fancy, it is actually better. You know, you always think that, like, European cheese and butter, that's just a fancy thing and you're paying extra for it. But honestly, like, it's just a better quality for the most part.

[Rosie Guerin]

My takeaway similarly is this idea that you can taste the ingredients that the cows were eating, so that kind of grassy flavor is gonna end up in the butter eventually. The other takeaway for me is that cultured butter. That's it for me.

[Leslie Stockton]

Yeah.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah.

[Rosie Guerin]

I love the funk. I love the fermentation. I love the idea that it sort of almost is cheese. Like, oh, my go. God, it's so good.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

So good. And also, just do not leave your butter out on the counter if you're cleaning with, like, chemically.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yeah. Fabulous. So tinted butter is not it?

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

What do you mean? I love my purple stick of butter.

[Rosie Guerin]

That's it for us this week. If you want to find out more about Wirecutters coverage. Or if you want to check out the products we recommended or Leslie recommended today, you can go to nytimes.com or you can find a link in the show notes. You can check out all of the other butters the folks at Wirecutter taste tested till next week. Thank you so much for listening.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Editing by Abigail Keel, engineering support from Mattie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson, original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Ba? Itup and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's Editor in chief.

[Kyra Blackwell]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[Rosie Guerin]

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

[Christine Cyr Clisette]

Make sure you're following the show on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it. Thanks for listening. Yum yum. Yeah.

[Kyra Blackwell]

Yes. We don't like it actually. Never mind.

[Rosie Guerin]

Yum yum. That is actually really not what I was expecting you both to say in tandem. I'm looking at them and they're like, yummy.