Secrets to Better Pie Making

Summary

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The Wirecutter Show: "Secrets to Better Pie Making"

Air date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Christine Cyr Clisset, Caira Blackwell, Rosie Guerin
Guest: Leslie Stockton, Senior Kitchen Gear Writer at Wirecutter

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Episode Overview

In this Thanksgiving-themed episode, the Wirecutter Show dives into the art and science of pie-making. Hosts Christine, Caira, and Rosie are joined by Leslie Stockton, a pie-baking pro and senior kitchen gear writer, for a practical, honest, and encouraging conversation about overcoming pie anxiety, key techniques, the best tools, and answers to common pie problems. Whether you’re a first-timer or a seasoned baker, this episode is packed with secrets and gear recommendations to help you achieve delicious, flaky, drama-free pies for the holidays.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Leslie’s Pie-Baking Journey

• Early Beginnings: Leslie learned the craft early—baking pies with her grandmother as a child, spending summers perfecting her skills.

  “I started baking pies with my grandmother when I was a kid...” (04:54, Leslie)

• Professional Experience: Later, Leslie honed her skills in professional settings, attended culinary school (specializing in savory foods), and worked at Martha Stewart developing Thanksgiving recipes.
• Favorite Pie to Make: Double crust stone fruit pies (peach, cherry, or plum).

  “My favorite pie to make, period, is a double crust stone fruit pie. Peach, cherry, plum.” (06:18, Leslie)

Overcoming Pie Intimidation

• Permission to Buy Crust: There’s no shame in using store-bought crust.

  “First of all, there’s no shame in buying a crust or...dough for the crust.” (07:09, Leslie)

• Core Tenets:
  • Cold ingredients
  • Work fast to avoid melting butter
  • Don’t overwork the dough

  “Those core tenets are cold ingredients. Everything has to stay cold. You don't want to overwork your dough...and don't let your hands melt that butter.” (07:48, Leslie)

• Practice: Try making a test dough, practice shaping, and don’t get hung up on perfection.

  "You can even just make some, like, test doughs...Bake it off and then taste it..." (08:46, Leslie)

Essential Gear for Pie-Baking

• Tapered Rolling Pin:
  • Easier to control, naturally rolls dough out into a circle.

  “A tapered rolling pin...naturally rolls that disc out into a circle...it's effortless.” (09:22, Leslie)

  • Recommended brand: Whetstone.

  “The tapered rolling pin we like is made by a company called Whetstone, and it is a joy to use.” (10:03, Leslie)

• Plastic Wrap: For shaping and resting dough discs to protect from fridge odors and make rolling easier.

  “Fat absorbs smell in the fridge, and it's ideal to let your dough rest...” (10:26, Leslie)

• Pie Plates:
  • Glass (Pyrex): Best for custard pies, affordable, lets you check crust color.

    “The glass Pyrex pie plate...is made for most custard pie recipes...” (11:28, Leslie)

  • Oxo Glass: Deep dish—good, but Leslie prefers shallow plates for versatility.
  • Stoneware (Emile Henry): Gorgeous, retains heat, safe from thermal shock, but you can't see the bottom crust. Use with a baking stone to improve browning.
  • Aluminum (including disposable): Conducts heat well, cheap—but double up for support and always bake on a sheet pan.

    “I don't hate the aluminum ones...Just double it up to give you a little extra support…” (15:35, Leslie)

  • Vintage Tin: Superior heat conduction, less risk of soggy bottoms, great with baking stones.

    “If you really want to have a beautifully cooked bottom crust that's nice and golden brown, start looking for old metal pie tins at the thrift stores.” (16:56, Leslie)

  • General Pie Plate Advice: Don't overthink it—shallow glass is the most versatile.

    “You don't need to over complicate things...a good pie plate...could be just one from the grocery store.” (17:54, Christine)

Dough Techniques & Tools

• Best Tools:
  • Food processor: Fast and beginner-friendly for cutting butter in.

    “The best piece of equipment is a food processor because that is going to make quick work...” (19:47, Leslie)

  • Pastry blender: Manual control for butter size and texture (Leslie’s personal fave).

    “I've gone back to analog...I use a pastry blender...” (20:29, Leslie)

  • King Arthur dough whisk: Incorporates liquid smoothly without sticking—especially useful.

    “I was gifted the King Arthur dough whisk...and my life changed.” (22:03, Leslie)

• Leslie's Dough OCD: Manual tools give more control over texture (variation in butter size is key to flakiness).

  “The food processor does not give me that variation that I am looking for…” (23:07, Leslie)

  • But: If you have hand issues, use the food processor—no shame.

    “If you have hand strength or hand mobility issues...use the food processor, please.” (23:44, Leslie)

• Best Butter for Pie: Kerrygold Unsalted—rich flavor and excellent flakiness.

  “Kerrygold is...such a luscious, flaky, flavorful, so flavorful pie crust.” (24:23, Leslie)

Store-Bought Pie Crusts

• It’s Fine! Life gets busy; Leslie fully supports using a premade crust—just check for butter on the ingredients list.

  “If the idea of making a pie crust is stressing you out... just go buy the pie crust.” (25:12, Leslie) “Just make sure that they use butter... it's gonna taste good.” (25:30, Leslie)

Advanced Moves: Par-Baking & Avoiding the Dreaded “Soggy Bottom”

• Par-Baking: Necessary if your pie filling cooks faster than the crust, e.g. custard, pumpkin pies.

  “One of them is if your pie filling bakes much faster than your pie crust would... you're gonna wanna par bake your pie crust.” (26:20, Leslie)

• Soggy Bottom: Raw/floppy crust under the filling. (27:07, Leslie)
• Tips to Avoid:
  • Dust crust with sugar/flour.
  • Brush with whipped egg white as a moisture barrier.

  “You can dust the crust...you can whip up some egg white and brush your crust...” (31:05, Leslie)

Beyond Traditional Thanksgiving Pies

• Leslie’s Alternatives:
  • Double crust plum pie: Substitute plums for peaches in your favorite peach pie recipe.

    “I love a double crust plum pie, and it's basically just a peach pie with plums.” (27:31, Leslie)

  • Lemon pies: Shaker lemon pie or lemon meringue—deep flavor, uses whole lemons (without seeds).

    “Don’t sleep on the lemons...the depth and complexity of flavor in a shaker lemon pie...” (28:09, Leslie)

  • Buttermilk pie: An economic southern staple; simple mix of buttermilk, eggs, sugar, and flour.

    “It is so much more than the sum of its parts.” (29:08, Leslie)

  • Galette: Freeform, no pie plate needed; great for pears and other seasonal fruit.
  • Gluten-free Crust: Use “Cup-4-Cup” gluten-free flour blend for closest match to regular crust.

    “That one is best for pie making.” (30:09, Leslie)

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Lightning Round: Troubleshooting Common Pie Problems

| Problem | Leslie’s Diagnosis/Solution | Timestamp | |-------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Soggy bottom crust | Not baking long enough; dust raw crust with flour/sugar or coat with egg white for barrier | 31:05 | | Tough/chewy crust | Overworked dough; let dough rest and chill more | 31:55 | | Dough crumbles/tears | Not enough water; gently knead/warm dough in hands, don’t add water during rolling | 32:19 | | Burnt fluted edges | Cover edges with foil strips (“tent the edges”) | 33:13 |

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Notable Quotes

• On Store-Bought Dough:

  “Do what works for you. Times are tough. We're all getting by the best we can. If the idea of making a pie crust is stressing you out... just go buy the pie crust.” (25:12, Leslie)

• On Avoiding Soggy Bottoms:

  “If you really want to have a beautifully cooked bottom crust that's nice and golden brown, start looking for old metal pie tins at the thrift stores.” (16:56, Leslie)

• On Favorite Pie Types:

  “If you don't eat a fruit pie hot. You have to let it cool all the way. If you want to throw it in the microwave...No way. I am a room temperature pie girl.” (06:33, Leslie)

• On Pie Baking Reality:

  “Pie baking actually is as difficult as it seems...But when you...present something really great, you should feel proud.” (34:38, Rosie)

• On Ingredients:

  “If your butter doesn't taste like anything, then you're not gonna get that buttery flavor.” (24:23, Leslie)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Leslie’s Pie Beginnings: 04:54–05:50
• Pie Intimidation & Core Techniques: 07:09–08:46
• Gear Essentials (Rolling Pin, Plates): 09:22–17:18
• Pie Plate Deep Dive: 11:28–17:18
• Dough Tools & Technique: 19:45–24:06
• Best Butter & Store-Bought Options: 24:06–25:41
• Par Baking & Soggy Bottoms: 25:51–27:07; 31:05
• Non-Traditional Thanksgiving Pies: 27:31–30:52
• Troubleshooting Lightning Round: 30:52–33:38
• Favorite Pie Crust Recipe: 33:47

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Pie baking can be intimidating, but the right tools, cold ingredients, and just a bit of fearlessness go a long way.
• Practice is key, and there’s no shame in shortcuts—use store-bought crust when needed and focus on what’s fun or feasible for you.
• Simplicity often wins: focus on good butter, a reliable pie plate, and enjoying the process.
• Celebrate both your pie triumphs and fellow bakers this Thanksgiving—“it’s really a labor of love.” (35:27, Christine)

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To see Leslie’s full recommendations: Check the show notes or Wirecutter’s website for links to all her favorite pie gear and guides.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I mean, have you ever had a piece of pie and like the bottom crust, especially towards the middle is like floppy and raw. Ugh, that's a soggy bottom.

[C]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[D]

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[E]

I'm Rosie Guerin and you're listening to the Wirecutter show. Hey guys.

[C]

Hey there.

[E]

Hey. Thanksgiving is upon us, which means one of my favorite food guests is our guest today, Leslie Stockton.

[C]

Ah, our Wirecutter food star. She has been on the show covering butter and she starred in our Thanksgiving episode last year where she covered all sorts of kind of basics that you might want to think about. For cooking the bird and the sides.

[E]

We didn't actually really get to dig into the thing she maybe loves the most. I don't, I don't want to overstate it and say in this world, but in the food world, which is pies.

[C]

Oh, she loves a pie. She does love pies.

[E]

She loves a pie.

[C]

Yeah. She has written a couple pieces for Wirecutter around pies. She has a piece up that covers her favorite tools to use and she's also tested a lot of our pie gear, including pie plates and our rolling pin picks and all of that good stuff.

[E]

And she's also made a lot of pies. Like for decades she's been making pies.

[D]

You guys worked together at Martha Stewart.

[C]

We did. We worked together at Martha Stewart Pies. Yeah.

[D]

So I'm really excited to chat with her today about her best tips and tricks and secrets to making a bomb pie for the holidays.

[C]

Well, we're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we'll talk with Leslie about all of her best tips for gear and technique for this pie baking season. Be right back.

[A]

It's time for Black Friday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more, faster plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other Benefits like free shipping, price match, guarantee, and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail] deals.

[F]

Hi, this is Eric Kim with New York Times Cooking. As a recipe developer, I spend a lot of my time trying to come up with dishes that are quick, easy, but also very special. For me, that means dishes like gochugaru salmon. It's a crispy salmon filet with a salty sweet glaze that bubbles up in candies. I love cooking this because it only takes 20 minutes. You can get this recipe and so many more ideas on New York times cooking. Visit NYT Cooking cooking.com to get inspired.

[D]

Welcome back. We've got Leslie Stockton in the studio with us today, and she is a senior kitchen gear writer who's been writing gear guides for Wirecutter for over a decade. Leslie formerly worked as a food editor at Martha Stewart, where part of her job was literally just developing Thanksgiving recipes. And she's baked probably hundreds of pies by now.

[E]

Leslie, we love having you here to talk about food and gear. Welcome back.

[B]

Thank you. I also love talking about food and gear.

[C]

Well, you're in the right place. Leslie. You joined us last fall to talk about Thanksgiving gear related to cooking the bird and the sides. But I know that you are way more of a pie person than a bird person. In fact, you came to my house last year for Thanksgiving and you brought ba ba ba ba.

[B]

A pie.

[C]

A delicious, delicious pie.

[D]

Wait, what kind of pie? We need details.

[C]

You know what? I was, like, really trying to remember. Was it a chocolate one? Goodness.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

It was delicious.

[B]

I can't believe I forgot.

[D]

What?

[C]

I think it had chocolate in it because I told you specifically I don't like pumpkin.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

But I can attest that you are a very, very good pie baker. And I need to know. I think we made this joke last year, but you look much younger than 100 years old. How have you possibly been able to bake hundreds of pies?

[B]

I started baking pies with my grandmother when I was a kid, and I was a bit of a kitchen pest because I always wanted to be in there seeing what she was doing. She started teaching me how to make her pie and her pie crust, and then it was. I mean, I spent summers with her, and so that's when I started making pies.

[C]

I love that. And so you baked with your grandmother, and then presumably you baked a lot of pies professionally.

[B]

Yes. That was just the start. I was A baker before I went to culinary school, so I made a lot of pies there. When I went to culinary school, I focused on savory, so I kind of put all of the sweets aside, and then I went to Martha Stewart, where you have to do everything. You have to develop everything. And so I got to rebuild those pastry muscles.

[C]

Yeah. And we worked at Martha together. That's how we met. And I remember in the summer, it was, like, time to prep for Thanksgiving. And so you were developing a lot of recipes at that point for Thanksgiving.

[B]

A lot of recipes.

[D]

Whenever you guys talk about your time at Martha Stewart ours, you just imagine you guys as, like, elves in, like, Santa's little workshop or something.

[B]

Kind of just like working. Definitely had a workshop vibe. Yeah.

[E]

I wonder if this is like picking your favorite child. Do you have a favorite pie?

[B]

My favorite pie to make, period, is a double crust stone fruit pie. Peach, cherry, plum.

[D]

Oh, is that what stone fruit is?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Oh, my God.

[D]

I personally think that fruit should not be hot, but that does actually sound good.

[B]

But you don't eat a fruit pie hot. You have to let it cool all the way. If you want to throw it in the microwave.

[A]

No way.

[D]

I feel like I've had so many, like, people heat up an apple pie and eat it with ice cream.

[B]

Okay, you can do that. But I am a room temperature pie girl. Okay.

[D]

I respect that.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Pie baking can definitely be intimidating, particularly if you don't do it often. If you're wanting to impress people at Thanksgiving, what is your best advice for overcoming that intimidation?

[B]

First of all, there's no shame in buying a crust or, you know, dough for the crust. But if you want to make it, what I would do is I would go look at some reputable books, go pick up Rose Levy Barenbaum's Pie and Pastry Bible, and read everything she has to say about pie crust.

[E]

If you pick up two books about pie baking, let's say, are you going to get the same type of advice? Is it like, you need to study, understand the science, and then you can grasp it?

[B]

Yes. I mean, most bakers agree on the core tenets of successful pie baking. Those core tenets are cold ingredients. Everything has to stay cold. You don't want to overwork your dough. So you want to work fast, bringing the dough together and rolling it out. Like, no fear. And don't let your hands, like, melt that butter because the butter is cut into the flour, and when it bakes, that's what's giving you that puff, the flaky puffiness. In the crust. That is really what you're looking for.

[C]

So it sounds like what you're saying, if you're trying to get over that intimidation factor, is no fear. Like, you kind of just have to go for it. People will be listening to this right before Thanksgiving. There might not be a lot of time to prep. But do you advise making some test pies before Thanksgiving? If you are trying to kind of.

[B]

Wow people, you can even just make some, like, test doughs. You know, put it in a pie plate. Practice fluting the edge. If you don't plan on filling that pie shell, then you don't have to, like, go through all the rigor of blind baking, which we will get into in a bit. You can just bake it off and then taste it and see if it's the texture and the flavor that you're going for.

[D]

Okay, so let's get into it. Let's talk about the gear. What do you think is really essential to making a great pie?

[B]

A tapered rolling pin. Why tapered a tapered rolling pin? Because it naturally rolls that disc out into a circle, whereas, you know, a perfectly cylindrical one. It's like back and forth, back and forth. Whereas with the tapered, you kind of lean down on one side, and it just rolls it out into a circle. It's effortless.

[C]

And for listeners who aren't familiar with these two different styles, the tapered doesn't have necessarily handles like the traditional rolling pin, where a traditional rolling pin has these two handles, and it's a totally even cylinder that you're rolling back and forth with. The tapered one is truly kind of like a dowel that's tapered on each side.

[B]

And another great thing about the tapered rolling pin is that you naturally start from the middle and roll out, which is how you're supposed to roll out a pie dough, because one it's uniform, it's gonna give you that perfect circle. Oh, and by the way, the tapered rolling pin we like is made by a company called Whetstone, and it is a joy to use.

[D]

What else?

[B]

Saran Wrap. Because you want to form that dough into, like, a really nice, perfect disc and, like, wrap it really tightly with Saran Wrap, because fat absorbs smell in the fridge, and it's ideal to let your dough rest in the fridge overnight up to two days. If you're not gonna use it in two days, throw it in the freezer. The more uniform you make your disc, the easier it's going to be to roll it out. And the great Thing about Saran Wrap is, like, when you put the dough in there, you can pick up the edges of the plastic and just kind of like form it like that, and you can get a really nice shape. What you start with when you roll it out has everything to do with how easy it rolls out into a circle.

[D]

Oh, okay, got it.

[C]

Let's talk a little bit about the pie plate, because I think there are so many different types of pie plates that you can choose from. Can you walk us through the different styles of pie plate and what kind of pies you'd recommend making in those?

[B]

Yes, I would love to, because I have a lot of thoughts on this. So the glass Pyrex pie plate is kind of synonymous in American kitchens with pie. It's a little shallower. It is made for most custard pie recipes for, like, a key lime pie and pumpkin pie, buttermilk pie, Any, like, custard pie, like, that's what you want to put. They're really cheap and they're very inexpensive.

[D]

What's cheap in this context?

[C]

For 15 bucks?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They used to be less.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, as with everything, but it is very important with glass. You have to put that pie plate on a baking sheet. They're both at room temperature, and then you put it in the oven.

[C]

And why is that?

[B]

It's not common, but the thermal shock could shatter it.

[D]

So what about Oxo? Whenever we have conversations with anybody from the kitchen team, that brand always comes.

[B]

Up and it happens to be our top pick pie plate. So unlike the Pyrex, the Oxo glass pie plate is deep dish.

[F]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and it's funny to me because you'd be hard pressed to find pie plates that are not a deep dish style, because I think that's just what is in and out of favor. I rarely use mine because I like a shallow pie.

[D]

So to get this straight, if you don't really bake pies that often, so you want to get like, the most versatile pie plate possible, you're probably better off going with a shallower dish than a deep one.

[B]

I think so. Because you can still make a double crust fruit pie and a Pyrex. Okay. So, I mean, your fruit to crust ratio will not be the same as a deep dish, but, you know, that's personal taste.

[C]

What about other deep dish pie plates? I know we recommend some stoneware.

[B]

Yeah. The Emile Henry and I have one, and it's beautiful. And if someone requests an apple pie, that's what I'm going to make it in.

[C]

What's the advantage of a stoneware plate over glass. Like, why would you want to choose that one?

[B]

There's no chance of that shattering. You can take it from the oven and put it, like, right on top of a granite countertop, and it will be fine. But I'm a huge fan of baking on a baking stone, like a pizza stone, especially pies.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Because it browns your crust.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So much better.

[C]

Like, the heat conducts better.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Once your oven is preheated, that stone has just absorbed so much, and it has so much heat to give. It has so much love to give. And so when you put your pie, the pie basically, like, sucks it up.

[C]

One thing I remember from testing pie plates is that it's so easy with a glass plate to see when your crust is done. You just look underneath. You can see if it's browned. That's the advantage, you know, that's a huge advantage. And with the stoneware plates, because you can't see through them, I often found that's when I had sort of like a pale bottom or one that was under. So it sounds like that is a great tip for people using the stoneware. Oh, yeah. To get that. To help brown it better on the bottom.

[B]

I also love a baking stone just for regulating oven heat all the time. Like, if you have an old oven or an apartment oven that is not great. A baking stone in there really helps to regulate the heat, and you won't get those intense, like, spikes and troughs. But that is an appliance show.

[C]

So, Leslie, I think there's a couple other categories of pie plates that maybe we could just touch on really quickly. There are tin pie plates, which you see all over vintage places, and I love them. Yes, they're beautiful. And then, of course, there are the really flimsy ones you see at the grocery store.

[D]

Are those the aluminum ones?

[C]

Yeah, the aluminum ones. Are those okay to use? And in which case would you use either one of these?

[B]

So I don't hate the aluminum ones. There is no shame. What I would say, though, is that since, you know, I would double up, because you usually get, like, a pack of three.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Just double it up to give you a little extra support and hate to sound like a broken record. Bake it on a baking sheet.

[C]

And can you just explain why? Like, what. What is the reason?

[B]

There are so many reasons why. First, spillage. The filling can, like, bubble over, especially when you know you're doing a fruit piece. Second, it's easier to get the pie in and out of the oven. You know, instead of trying to like get hot mitts around, like this sloped edged thing that's full of molten lava. And also glass, you don't want to put room temperature glass directly on a hot oven rack. And again, you don't want to put hot oven glass directly on a room temperature countertop, which you should always use a baking rack. Just don't put anything hot on your countertop.

[C]

I don't care. What's a cooling rack? Like a cooling rack?

[B]

Like a cooling rack. It's just good. It makes your life easier. If you're worried about having to clean, sticky, hot, burnt, sugary pie filling, then you just put some foil on that baking sheet and you're good to go.

[C]

And what about these beautiful tin plates?

[B]

Okay, so tin, it conducts heat so much better than glass is actually an insulator. If you really want to have a beautifully cooked bottom crust that's nice and golden brown, start looking for old metal pie tins at the thrift stores.

[C]

And when you say that the metal conducts heat better, what it's doing is helping cook the crust faster. Right. And more efficiently.

[B]

More efficiently. And so you get that outside, like bake, there's less of a chance of a soggy bottom, which we will get into.

[C]

Yeah, we're going to talk about soggy.

[B]

We're going to talk about. And that's not the only way to avoid a soggy bottom. There are other ways. But to me, metal pie 10 plus baking stone is like.

[C]

So what I'm hearing here, Leslie, is that when it comes to baking a pie for Thanksgiving, you don't need to over complicate things. The best thing to do is to make sure you've got the right two pieces of gear. Essentially you need a good pie plate and it could be just one from the grocery store. And the right shape of rolling pin is really going to help out. And then if you have the time, patience, the inner reserve, maybe practice making your pie before the big day.

[B]

Yep.

[D]

After the break, we're gonna get into the details on pie dough. So Leslie's best tips for making great dough that's flaky and delicious. Plus she's gonna help us troubleshoot common pie problems people tend to have, especially under pressure. We'll be right back.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 Plus. Featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. Plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other Benefits like free shipping, price match, guarantee, and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail] deals.

[E]

Welcome back. Before the break, we talked about all the gear that you need for baking pies with recommendations from you, Leslie. Dough. We're flipping over to dough. It's such a big part of making a great pie. So I want to know, what tools are you using to make your pie dough?

[B]

Okay. No pressure, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

But the dough is the most important part to me. To me, I love crust. I think that if you are just starting out, the best piece of equipment is a food processor because that is going to make quick work of cutting that butter into the flour and getting the ice water incorporated. Assuming that, like, you're pulsing, you're not running it, you know, but you still have to, like, keep an eye on it. And a lot of people have them, I think, so.

[C]

I think they're pretty common.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You have sort of moved away from using a Cuisinart, if I'm correct.

[B]

I have. I'm just talking to the folks, to the general people.

[C]

Yeah. I see a solution.

[B]

I've gone back to analog.

[E]

What is analog in this circumstance?

[B]

Analog in this circumstances. I use a pastry blender which is like that U shaped thing with the handle.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[D]

So I've looked this up because I have no idea what a manual pastry blender looks like. It kind of looks like a wolverine.

[C]

Yeah. With. Yeah, it looks like it could definitely come in handy during a fight.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Like, like, oh, brass knuckles kind of.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Especially if you heat up the business end on this over a flame. Never mind. That's now. Now we're getting into fight club. Okay, so the one I use now and I think is kind of my favorite one is this one from Crate and Barrel. And I really like the wood handle because I can still get a grip on it even though I have this thin layer of butter on my hands.

[E]

Why would you want that instead of a food processor? Because I imagine with a food processor the blade is staying cold or at least room temperature, whereas you have the wolverine thing. Your hand and the temperature of your skin is getting closer to the butter.

[B]

Yeah. But I work very fast. This is not my first rodeo. And yes, the food processor is great. I hate cleaning a food processor. It doesn't go any deeper than that.

[E]

Yeah, no, I get that. I don't use my food processor much because I really do not like to clean it.

[B]

I hate Cleaning it.

[E]

Okay, so what else in terms of hand tools?

[B]

I was gifted the King Arthur doe whisk. I don't know, maybe six years ago, and my life changed. A doe whisk. It has a long, ish handle and a steel thick gauge wire, like, loop de loop business end. And what it does is I just.

[D]

Looked up a picture of this thing, and it looks like something a kid would draw.

[B]

Well, that kid's a genius. So what it does is it incorporates the liquid into your pastry dough pretty, like, seamlessly and effortlessly. Like, if you use a fork to, like, stir in liquid into, like, a floury situation, it just gloms around the tines of the fork, and then you have more on your fork than in the bowl. That doesn't happen with this thing.

[C]

Leslie. I have a Cuisinart. I have one of these pastry cutters. I'm curious, like, is there a difference in the quality of dough that these different tools will make?

[B]

Okay, wire cutter audience, you're about to be exposed to my ocd. Lock in. When you cut butter into flour when you're starting to make a pastry dough, the general instruction is until it resembles a coarse meal with some bits the size of a lentil or, like a pea. The food processor does not give me that variation that I am looking for and is really beautiful.

[E]

It sounds like it also gives you more control. Like, these hand tools just in general give you more control.

[B]

I did tell you I was ocd, right? All of that said, if you have hand strength or hand mobility issues, don't listen to me on this flaky rant. Use the food processor, please. Do what works for you.

[C]

All right, let's talk about the star of the dough show, I think, which is butter. You came and talked with us about butter. You did a really great butter review for Wirecutter, and we did an episode on it. We'll link to that in the show notes. What is your favorite butter for pie baking? Oh.

[B]

I mean, hands down, it's Kerrygold unsalted, and I'll talk about that in a second. But Kerrygold is. It makes such a luscious, flaky, flavorful, so flavorful pie crust. You could use supermarket butter, and it will be fine. But if your butter doesn't taste like anything, then you're not gonna get that but buttery flavor. Okay, Right.

[C]

It just makes sense. Totally.

[D]

I'm hearing you, Leslie, and it sounds like pie making can be magical. It also sounds like a lot of work. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not doing all that. So what do you think? Like, what's your opinion on those store bought pie crusts? Because I'm sure that's an option for people if they just want something quick and they only have to worry about the filling. What do you think?

[B]

Do what works for you. Times are tough. We're all getting by the best we can. If the idea of making a pie crust is stressing you out and look, I've been stressed out by far less, then just go buy the pie crust.

[E]

So what are you looking for in the ingredients list when you're running to the store to get a store bought pie crust?

[B]

Butter. Just make sure that they use butter. It's gonna perform the function. If it's not all butter, but like the all butter, it's gonna taste good. And isn't that why we're, you know, it's a lot of work why we're doing it?

[C]

It's a lot of work to make something that doesn't taste good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we do have this review of Store Boug that we just published, so you should check that out. We'll have it in the show notes.

[E]

Leslie, I know some recipes call for par baking a pie crust. I find that very intimidating. Par baking, meaning cooking the crust before you fill it with your filling. Why in your perspective or from your knowledge, why would you do that and what is the best technique to do it?

[B]

You find it intimidating? I find it downright annoying.

[E]

But I'm sure if I knew how to do it, I would also find it annoying.

[B]

It is necessary in some instances to par bake your pie crust. One of them is if your pie filling bakes much faster than your pie crust would from raw, then yes, you're gonna wanna par bake your pie crust.

[C]

Are there certain types of pie that fit into that category?

[B]

Pumpkin pie. Most custard pies. Okay. Oh, and another reason why you would is if you really want to avoid a soggy bottom. That's one way to do it.

[C]

And can, can we just define what a soggy bottom is?

[B]

I mean, have you ever had a piece of pie and like the bottom crust, especially towards the middle is like floppy and raw? Ugh, that's a soggy bottom.

[C]

Leslie, I have a question that is very thinly masked for myself. I am not into traditional pumpkin pie. It's not my favorite about pecan pie, I'm just generally not into the Thanksgiving pies. Are there any pies that you would recommend for someone in my situation who wants to bring a pie, wants to bake a Pie, but doesn't want to do the Thanksgiving traditional pies.

[B]

Yes. Okay. So I think plums might still be around, and I love a double crust plum pie, and it's basically just a peach pie with plums.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

Take a peach pie recipe, swap out the peaches for plums, and you are good to go.

[E]

Double crust. Meat and crust in the bottom, crust in the top four and 20 blackbirds.

[B]

Yep.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

I love a plum pie. Now, you say you don't like pecan pie, but it is a single crust pie, and you don't have to blind bake that crust. So you know you have that going for you. Okay. It's November, so we are at the very beginning of citrus season. So don't like, sleep on the lemons.

[C]

Ah, you're speaking my language.

[E]

I love a lemon meringue pie.

[B]

So good. I don't know if you ever had a shaker lemon pie.

[C]

Remind me of what a shaker.

[B]

So a shaker lemon pie uses the entire lemon, but not the seeds. This is when, like, the Meyer lemons are very necessary because you want, like, a thin pith lemon. The depth and complexity of flavor in a shaker lemon pie is like sweet, tart, a little bit bitter. Oh, it's a symphony.

[E]

I mean, it's sugar. Lemon.

[B]

Yeah. Sugar, lemon, butter, butter.

[E]

Butter on the bottom, butter on the top. Sugar and butter. I mean, what are you. What more are you looking for?

[C]

This one is. Is. This is my bingo card. I'm. I think I'm doing this one. I like this one.

[B]

Oh, it's so good.

[E]

What is buttermilk pie? Oh, man.

[B]

That is a staple of the south, and it is an economic pie. It's buttermilk, eggs, sugar, and flour.

[E]

Ooh, yum.

[B]

And you whisk all of those together, and then you pour it into, you know, a par baked crust, and you bake it off. And it is the simplicity. I mean, it is so much more than the sum of its parts, y'.

[D]

All.

[B]

Again, gorgeous. Another one.

[C]

I'm loving this.

[B]

I also need to mention the plateless pie option is a pear galette.

[D]

Ooh.

[B]

Because again, pears are in season. It is so very simple. Like, I mix up something we used to call pixie dust, which is ground toasted almonds, a little bit of flour and some sugar. Put that, like, on the bottom of the circle of pie dough, and then I fan out a bunch of pears that I've sliced, and then I just pick up the sides and just fold it over. And you don't need a Pie plate.

[D]

So it's like a pastry.

[C]

It's free form.

[B]

It's free form. It's rustic.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

It's French. Do you have a recommendation for a good gluten free type of crust? Like, is there like a nut crust or something that you would recommend?

[B]

Um, so the consensus is the gluten free baking mix cup. For cup of the baking mixes that are available, that one is best for pie making.

[E]

The idea is that using all of the other ingredients the same, you're gonna get something that's tasty.

[B]

You're gonna get something that is not just tasty, but like damn close to your gluten flour pie crust. Like that, you're gonna get closest.

[D]

All right, Leslie, we wanna do a really quick lightning round where you diagnosed common pie problems. So I'm gonna give you the problem and just off the dome, tell me what the answer is. Ok. Soggy bottom crust.

[B]

Well, one, you're not baking your pie long enough. However, there are some things you can do. You can dust the crust, meaning you mix like a teaspoon of flour and white granulated sugar and you just dust the crust before you put your filling in. You can also.

[C]

What does that do?

[B]

It absorbs some moisture so that your crisps up so your crust isn't absorbing. Like, it's like a bit of like a little barrier. Another way to do it is you can whip up some egg white and brush your crust with some egg white. Also creates a nice little barrier so.

[C]

That the moisture from the filling doesn't soak in to the crust.

[B]

Okay. If you really want that insurance, those are two very easy ways to do it.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Tough or chewy crust.

[B]

You overworked that dough. I'm sorry, girl. Nothing to do about that.

[A]

I guess.

[B]

I mean, what you can do is you can mitigate by making sure that dough gets a lot of rest and is very cold.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

You can make sure your filling tastes really good.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Overcompensate.

[E]

Don't mess up your filling.

[D]

What if your dough crumbles when you roll it out?

[B]

Okay. So we never even talked about, like, making the dough and like adding too much water, not enough water. When you're incorporating the water into your dough, the advice is you add water just until the dough holds together when squeezed. When you're rolling it out and it crumbles, you gotta kinda warm it with your hands. I'm so sorry. This is when the butter's gonna help you. Because you don't wanna like spritz your dough while you're trying to Roll it out. Cause it's just gonna stick to your rolling pin. That's when I would just pick up the dough and just kind of like, knead it in my hands like it's play doh. But not too much so that it'll hold a shape.

[D]

Last one. Burnt fluted edges.

[B]

Well, when you see those. When you see those girls getting a little too tan, you cover them with. You get a strip of aluminum foil, and you just tent the edges. It's not a fun task, but it will keep you from having burnt edges on your pie crust. And, like, the edge is my favorite. I love it.

[D]

Before we wrap, we usually ask one final question, but we're gonna flip the script on you this time. Cause you've been here before. What's your favorite pie crust recipe?

[B]

A classic pate brisee. In French, that translates to broken crust, but it's two sticks of butter, two and a half cups of ap flour, half teaspoon of kosher salt, teaspoon of sugar, and ice water as you need it.

[D]

She literally just listed the entire.

[C]

I love that that's just in your brain.

[E]

Leslie, thank you so much. I think we all learned a lot, and hopefully there's a lot in here that will be helpful for folks this Thanksgiving.

[B]

Thank you so much. This is my favorite cooking subject, and y' all are my favorite people to yap to.

[E]

So awesome.

[C]

We love you.

[E]

Another great chat with Leslie. She really is.

[C]

She's so fun.

[D]

I learned so much every time she hops on the mic.

[E]

One of the main things for me is a little bit of a humbling idea that pie baking actually is as difficult as it seems. I don't know. I kind of find that comforting because it's. It's tough. But when you are able to get through it and do it and present something really great, you should feel proud.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I am usually not the pie baker in my Thanksgiving cohort, but I think I will this year because I was very inspired by this shaker lemon pie. I remember tasting them at Martha Stewart. They are delicious, and I want to try doing it myself. But I'm also just going to take a greater appreciation when someone bakes a pie, because there's a lot of work that goes into it. Like you were saying, I mean, to get that crust flaky, all of the stuff that that goes into it, it's really, like, a labor of love. So.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

And if you don't feel like doing that, I like that Leslie isn't judgmental. And getting a pre made crust isn't sacrilegious. Just go get it from the grocery store.

[C]

Just go get one. We have lots of great recommendations on the site. We did taste a lot of them.

[E]

So if you want to find out more about anything Leslie recommended today, any of her food reporting, including her reporting on pies, check out our website and we'll link all our recommendations in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. Appreciate you.

[B]

Bye bye bye.

[D]

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Ba? Itu, Katherine Anderson, Rowan Nimisto and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

[C]

I'm Christine Cyrclassette.

[E]

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

[D]

Thanks for listening. You know, whatever floats her boat.

[E]

We're not here to judge.

[B]

Hop off diva.

[A]

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