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- [00:00]
Rosie Guerin
This podcast is supported by Sierra.
- [00:03]
Christine Cyrclassette
We've all been there. Your flight was canceled and everyone is trying to rebook at the same time.
- [00:10]
Kyra Blackwell
Please hold.
- [00:11]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Estimated wait time is 25 minutes.
- [00:16]
Christine Cyrclassette
Sierra is different. We build AI agents that talk directly to your customers so you can say goodbye to hold times and chatbots. Always friendly, always helpful, always ready. Visit Sierra AI to learn more. That's Sierra AI.
- [00:37]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
One of my favorite sort of guilty pleasures. I go on the skincare subreddit.
- [00:40]
Rory Evans
Oh yeah.
- [00:41]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Just to see what people are talking about. And it's funny because I'm actually kind of like nodding proudly at people when they like use scientifically sound advice there.
- [00:51]
Dane Brugler
I'm Christine Cyrclassette.
- [00:53]
Kyra Blackwell
I'm Kyra Blackwell.
- [00:54]
Rosie Guerin
I'm Rosie Guerin and you're listening to the Wirecutter show.
- [01:02]
Kyra Blackwell
This episode is called simple and Affordable Skincare.
- [01:08]
Rosie Guerin
Hi guys.
- [01:09]
Dane Brugler
Hey there.
- [01:09]
Rory Evans
Hi.
- [01:10]
Kyra Blackwell
I'm so excited about our topic today because it's all about skincare, which is kind of a new subject area for Wirecutter.
- [01:17]
Rory Evans
Right?
- [01:17]
Dane Brugler
Yeah. We have never had much on the site around this and now we have a complete new section.
- [01:22]
Kyra Blackwell
So cool.
- [01:23]
Dane Brugler
It's great.
- [01:23]
Rosie Guerin
I mean, personally I've been a skincare minimalist, but if you go on social.
- [01:29]
Kyra Blackwell
Media, there's always something.
- [01:31]
Rosie Guerin
There's always something. You're constantly marketed. This is the best face cream, this is the best vitamin C. This is the thing that's going to change your life and give you a chemical facelift or whatever.
- [01:41]
Dane Brugler
It's not even just Instagram. It's like magazines. You never really know who to trust. It feels like everyone is getting paid under the table to promote different products and I never feel like I can quite trust what I'm reading.
- [01:54]
Kyra Blackwell
Yeah. Somebody who is like a minimalist in skincare like you, Rosie. I think that our coverage is exactly what you need because we really cut through all the noise and we try to figure out like what are the basic things that you actually need that won't break your bank and it will actually work.
- [02:08]
Dane Brugler
You know, we have like a variety of guides that we just came out with. We came out with a guide to facial moisturizers, vitamin C serums, retinols, chemical exfoliants and body lotions. I think like the overall theme of all of these guides is that we have a lot of really affordable picks in these pieces. There are some like splurge worthy things, but a lot of things that you can buy at a drugstore, at maybe a Sephora if you're getting fancy. But by and large it's stuff that is really, really accessible to most people.
- [02:37]
Kyra Blackwell
Yeah, I'm so happy that we're finally doing this. Skincare has kind of been a latent interest of mine. I've also done a lot of reporting on sunscreen, so this intersects with some of the things that I have been reporting on and that we get to talk about today. Our first guest is Dr. Nikhil Dhingra, who is a board certified dermatologist and one of my OG sources back in the day for our facial sunscreen guide. So he's going tell us how to determine what kind of skin you have and the most important things to keep in mind before you go out and try anything new. And then we're going to speak with Rory Evans, a senior staff writer on our beauty team here at Wirecutter. And Rory is going to talk about her testing methods and how to build an inexpensive drugstore skincare routine your skin will love and your wallet too.
- [03:24]
Dane Brugler
After the break, Dr. Dhingra's expert advice for taking care of your skin. We'll be right back.
- [03:29]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Foreign.
- [03:33]
Alexa Weibel
I'm Dane Brugler. I cover the NFL draft for the Athletic, spending the whole year working on a draft guide. I'm looking at thousands of players putting together hundreds of full scouting reports, all the nitty gritty details, the testing data, the stats, but extensive background research as well. Every journey is a little bit different. I'm on the phone with a lot of these guys, hey, when did you start playing football? What other sports did you play? Tell me about your family, you know, learning more about these guys as people. Our draft guide picked up the name the Beast because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I have no idea how to quantify the hours I've spent putting it together. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in the Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. This is the kind of in depth, unique journalism you get from the Athletic and the New York Times. You can subscribe@nytimes.com subscribe.
- [04:40]
Kyra Blackwell
Welcome back. With us now is Dr. Nikhil Dhingra, who's a board certified dermatologist at Spring Street Dermatology. So One quick disclosure. Dr. Dhingra is actually Rosie's really good friend, but before I even met Rosie, I've used him as a source for my research on facial sunscreens multiple times. Dr. Dhingra also used to read all the ingredients on skincare products as, you know, a little kid. So he's got a real Love for dermatology and helping people figure out what's going on with their skin.
- [05:06]
Dane Brugler
Welcome.
- [05:07]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Thank you. Very excited to be here.
- [05:09]
Dane Brugler
I'm really excited to talk to you today because I feel like I'm going to get to get into all the nitty gritty details that I'm always curious about. But, you know, skincare is a really hard topic to cover. It's very individual. Everybody's skin is different. So I'd like to know, you know, from your perspective as a dermatologist, what is the single best thing that people can do for their skin?
- [05:30]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
I think avoiding doing too much to it. I think the concept of more is better both in terms of the number of ingredients and how much they're spending. I think those are both counterproductive. I think a very stripped down routine where you're just doing some very basic things is actually going to yield you better results than doing too much all at the same time.
- [05:51]
Dane Brugler
Especially so less is more. Basically.
- [05:53]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Less is more.
- [05:53]
Dane Brugler
And would you say that's true for all age groups? Like, you know, I'm in my 40s. I feel like that's different than Kyra, who's in her 20s, a baby.
- [06:03]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Yes, I think that is generally true for all age groups. You know, I think the panic of aging definitely kicks in as you get older. But your skin also can be more sensitive as you get older. It tends to start drying out, you start making less oil. So as a result, if you do too much to it, it's going to still work out counterproductively. I typically will tell people, when you're picking things, be intentional.
- [06:23]
Kyra Blackwell
That's really good to know. But I think also, like, when it just comes to knowing your own skin, I feel like it's hard for people to really figure out what kind of skin they have. Is it dry? Is it combo? Is it oily? How can people figure out what kind of skin they have?
- [06:38]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
It's funny. People come to the office all the time, you know, for medical appointments, and they'll ask me, like, can you tell me what skin type I have? But a lot of it is subjective observation. It's kind of getting a sense, especially from a young age, of what your skin looks like, what it feels like, and also how it reacts to things in the environment and also to things that you're applying to the skin. I think getting a good sense of what your skin looks like and how it feels before you do a lot to it is kind of critical because once you start introducing one product after another, it kind of changes the dynamic also.
- [07:08]
Kyra Blackwell
Right. So when we last spoke, you actually told me something really surprising, which is that dry skin is more prone to being sensitive versus oily skin. Like, oily skin is pretty hardy and generally you can try out more on it, right?
- [07:21]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Yeah, there is overlap. I think the skin type I actually struggle with the most in the office are like oily skin types with sensitive skin, because it's a very hard combo to deal with sometimes. A lot of times, dry skin tends to be prone to aggravation, especially in the age of too many active ingredients, a lot of which actually disrupt skin barriers. Having a baseline sort of oily layer of skin tends to protect the skin a little bit. It's creating a little bit of a buffer. Whereas, like people who are prone to dryness, they add other things that make them drier. It starts to irritate their skin, and it causes them to flare up with things like eczema, for example.
- [07:56]
Dane Brugler
Is there any difference when we talk about melanated skin or olive toned skin in terms of the sensitivity or how you assess the skin?
- [08:05]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Yes and no. I think it changes how we approach things in terms of what ingredients to introduce, because I think obviously issues of hyperpigmentation are a little more common with more melanin in the skin. So bigger emphasis on sunscreen, for example, especially if there are other medical issues at play. Things like rashes, for example, or acne.
- [08:22]
Kyra Blackwell
Which is really interesting because I know a lot of black people in my life are like, I don't need sunscreen.
- [08:26]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Right. But, you know, I think the thing is our, you know, I have melanin in my skin too. I have. I have a bit of an olive complexion. You get a single pimple and it can leave a dark mark for six months or longer. You get a little bit of sunlight, you know, that's gonna prolong that.
- [08:39]
Kyra Blackwell
Preaching to the choir, right?
- [08:40]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Our melanocytes are ready to kind of shoot out extra layers of melanin and protection. But that also is a typical response to sun exposure, no matter what. Beyond that, I don't think there's a change in sensitivity. I think things like rosacea, for example, are really under diagnosed in skin of color. People with rosacea have very sensitive skin. They tend to be very reactive, prone to redness. And I think if you have some melanin, it's harder to assess that redness. And so I see people all the time, they go and they buy a couple of products, and then all of a sudden they're just like, it's not suiting them. Their Skin's getting redder and it just doesn't totally work out. So there are some things to sort of take into account. There's some exceptions to the rule.
- [09:23]
Dane Brugler
So once you've taken the step of assessing your skin, right, kind of understanding what your skin needs, what's the next step? Are there kind of like foundational types of products you should be focused on?
- [09:35]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
I think the key thing when you're trying to build a fundamental skincare routine is you have to start with the basics. A cleanser, a moisturizer and a sunscreen that you'll like. The feel of cleansers, first of all, I emphasize it's very different than soap. I have people who still come to the office and they're using a bar soap on their face. Conceptually they're the same. They contain things called surfactants that sort of lift dirt and debris off the skin. But soaps have a lot more. They're harsher, they tend to be rougher on the skin. And our body can handle it in some cases, but our face is not so much. So getting a good cleanser, usually starting with something really gentle and boring and basic, is kind of a good starting point. You can always tweak things in the future. After you cleanse, you want to make sure that you're repairing that skin barrier using a moisturizer that's also suitable for your skin type. A couple of things that always drive me crazy. There are things like the use of oils and fragrances in moisturizers. I think those are both counterproductive. Oils are not great hydrators. You know, they're there to trap water into the skin. But a lot of good skincare products already have ingredients that do that, you know, so finding something that's not greasy, that's not going to break you out, that's not going to irritate your skin. Really helpful because it encourages you to stick to that product. I think the same thing goes for sunscreen too. You know, I'm not saying go and buy like Coppertone for the beach to walk around New York City and on a day to day basis, you know, a good moisturizer, again with the same principles that just has some SPF in it is a good start.
- [10:55]
Kyra Blackwell
So our skincare team at Wirecutter hasn't tested cleansers yet. That is in the works though. What are some good affordable ones that you'd recommend?
- [11:03]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
I think I tend to stick with the basics, you know, cetaphil and Cerave and then my favorite, personally, I like La Roche Posay I say, like, if you want to go to the drugstore and feel a little bougie, that's kind.
- [11:13]
Dane Brugler
Of like the best way. I like to get La Roche Posay for that reason.
- [11:18]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Specifically, they have a product line called the Tellurian. I tend to start a lot of my patients on. I like that line one because the ingredient list is really short. I'll switch patients off. They'll come in using an organic cleanser or something. Very clean beauty. Those clean beauty products have really long ingredient lists. Still a lot of room for irritation. Whereas the Tellurian line is really short. They have a hydrating option, they have a purifying one that's gel based. And then they have a nice in between creamy mousse too. So it kind of covers everyone's needs.
- [11:50]
Dane Brugler
All right. You've addressed like the holy trinity of skincare, right? It's the face wash, it's the moisturizer, it's the sunscreen. But we are all inundated constantly with so many products. Are there product categories that you think are actually worth it? Things that really work? When you have somebody coming to you and asking, like, I want anti aging or I want my skin to look better, what are the products that you recommend?
- [12:11]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
I think there are a couple of non negotiables if you're trying to start with anti aging. And I think the first is just a retinol. You have your moisturizer, your sunscreen and your cleanser on board. And when I say on board, I mean do it for a few months. Make sure you don't react to them. A retinol just has so much evidence behind it. In medicine, we tend to think about the evidence, right? You know, where is the data? Strong. And I tend to look for things that are tested in humans and actual patients. And retinol just has a lot of science behind it. Originally it was derived for acne, but retinol is, are easily available over the counter. Every company has them now. You don't need to break the bank anymore if you're trying to start here. We know that it has lots of perks. It helps with acne, especially in prescription form. It helps with fine lines and wrinkles because it stimulates collagen production. It sort of inhibits the breakdown of your skin's supportive structure, something called the extracellular matrix. It helps with hyperpigmentation, issues of melasma. It helps with sun damage. Also, there are some data to suggest that retinoids in particular, which are prescription strength, seem to combat some of the sort of damage done by sun. So potentially cancer protective effects too. So really there's such a body of evidence to suggest that that's helpful. I think it sort of drives me up the wall sometimes when someone tries to start other things that are not driven as much by data and they end up irritating themselves and then they don't give themselves a chance with something like a retinol. So that's always step number one, especially when you're starting to think about anti aging, maybe in like your 20s.
- [13:38]
Dane Brugler
Can you explain the difference between a retinol and a retinoid?
- [13:43]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Most retinoids tend to require prescri, an exception being something like Adapalene or Differin over the counter. You know, people will interchange the two terms all the time. But a retinol is much milder in terms of intensity. It's a great target for someone looking for fine lines and wrinkles, something that maybe won't aggravate their skin too much. But it's not going to do a lot when you're dealing with things like acne. You know, on average I'd say a retinoid is at least 20 times stronger than a retinol. If someone hasn't started with anything, start with a retinol first. Unless you're dealing with specific medical issues like acne, in which case you just want to see a professional.
- [14:16]
Dane Brugler
So beyond a retinoid or a retinol, what are the other products that you'd recommend?
- [14:21]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Vitamin C, probably second in line. I don't think it's a must have. First of all, there's a lot of variation in quality. I think there's a lot of hype behind it. There's not a lot of data to support it in general.
- [14:32]
Dane Brugler
Interesting.
- [14:33]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
We do know that there is some benefit to collagen production. We know that it has antioxidant benefits and antioxidant benefits typically help people, especially when they have a lot of sun damage. We know that vitamin C can help clear up things like melasma or marks from acne. But at the same time, vitamin C is an acid and acids and things like retinols don't always play well together. So I think prioritizing a vitamin C over a retinol still not necessarily the order I would go. It's a nice to have once you're doing a retinoid, consistently. One of my favorite sort of guilty pleasures. I go on the skincare subreddit.
- [15:07]
Rory Evans
Oh yeah.
- [15:08]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Just to see what people are talking about. And it's funny because I'm actually kind of like nodding Proudly at people when they use scientifically sound advice. There you see people reacting all the time and specific pattern. Some people get eczema like reactions, some people get rosacea flare ups because of the potential irritation factor there. And then the other thing is a lot of vitamin Cs are often oil based. And I, I said earlier, I don't like oil based ingredients in general because it's hard to predict what it'll do to people's skin.
- [15:44]
Dane Brugler
What do you think about exfoliants?
- [15:46]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
I think exfoliants can be done in moderation. A retinol is an exfoliant, for example. Right. Beyond that, I tend to prefer chemical exfoliants over physical exfoliants. You know, physical exfoliants are things like the stained Ives. I think we all had a phase of using at some point in middle school.
- [16:02]
Kyra Blackwell
We love stain eyes. Yeah.
- [16:04]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
But turns out you're just making micro injuries to the skin. You're creating a lot of trauma. It really induces sort of a reactivity if your skin is very sensitive, but you know, certainly very abrasive, very harsh. And that abrasiveness then decreases your ability to toler anything else. The classic case is someone says, oh, I've been using this and now I put everything on like a moisturizer burns. Like I've had people say Aquaphor burns. It's pretty hard for something like Aquaphor to cause skin irritation.
- [16:28]
Dane Brugler
Yeah.
- [16:29]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
You know, so once you get to that point, your barrier is very disrupted. And physically scrubbing the skin is a great shortcut to doing that.
- [16:35]
Kyra Blackwell
I mean, I have to fight myself whenever I have a minor breakout to not just try a bunch of different things. I just want something to fix it. But what would you recommend people do if they're trying a new product? Like how long should they realistically wait to see it actually working?
- [16:49]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Officially, they'll tell you a month. I say three months at least. One, you can react to things at any time. A lot of it is actually irritation. It's not an allergic reaction. I get people all the time who say, oh, I tried that. I was allergic to it. That's only about one in five reactions. Four out of five times you're just irritated. Something just set a switch off. Whether it's maybe you're using a product and it was fine until it got really cold outside. Or maybe you went and added a second ingredient and it caused an issue. So start with a product every three months, See how you do first. There's no rush to any of this. And once you're starting to see the benefits, then you can start to introduce other things. And that's true whether it's over the counter product or if it's something prescription grade that your dermatologist prescribed.
- [17:31]
Dane Brugler
I find that there's a lot of ads for hyaluronic acid. What do you think about hyaluronic acid?
- [17:37]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Yeah, so hyaluronic acid inherently is what we call a humectant. It's designed to draw water to the skin, but it's a little bit overhyped in terms of the science. There's not a lot of good data to suggest that they work the way that they claim they do. And I think beyond that, a good basic moisturizer. A lot of the drugstore companies, they already include hyaluronic acid in their ingredient list. So it almost just feels like an extraneous, like sort of part of your routine, like a self care routine to do that. But if you're doing a moisturizer with it, it's already unnecessary. The ingredient you're often looking for is something like sodium hyaluronate, which is on the ingredient list in a lot of these products. And if that already has it in there and if you have like a ceramide, which is an occlusive, you already have multiple things in one. You don't need multiple products then, which.
- [18:17]
Dane Brugler
You mentioned earlier, Cerave, their just regular moisturizer has all those things in it.
- [18:22]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
It does, it does.
- [18:23]
Dane Brugler
And I think that's one of our wirecutter picks. And it's like you can get like a ginormous jug of it for $10 or something.
- [18:27]
Kyra Blackwell
It's so cheap.
- [18:28]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Yeah, I like cost efficacy. I think the other thing is these drugstore brands actually do a lot of R and D. They do a lot of testing and they don't necessarily have the need to add things like fragrances and other additives that I think we historically and psychologically associate with being luxurious. Right. But those things cost money for a company to include number one, two. You then also paying for the marketing behind these companies that maybe they're not selling in as much volume, but you know, they're selling it in designer stores or at Sephora. But again, these things then work against us in terms of our skin quality.
- [19:06]
Dane Brugler
I can say from my, my child who watches YouTube skincare videos all the time, that very complicated skincare routines seem to be very popular. Right. Like the 10 step, 12 step, 20 step, the fancy new trend. But you said earlier keeping it simple is the important thing. Right.
- [19:23]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Be intentional with what you're Doing to your skin, every ingredient you introduce, you introduce a layer of potential irritation. And it also takes away from your ability to tolerate things. So if you want to go and enjoy skincare, it's often counterproductive to do that much to your skin because you're actually working away from being able to handle it as you get older too. Right, Right. Like if you start at 10 years old and you're doing a 20 step skincare routine, what's gonna happen at 20 when you're sensitive to a lot of ingredients or maybe you developed an allerg.
- [19:48]
Dane Brugler
Oh. So it's like you've become sensitized to these ingredients and then you can't handle them anymore.
- [19:55]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Right. Actually, I say this all the time to patients. A lot of times patients will come in and they'll say, I have sensitive skin. I actually don't think a lot of people have sensitive skin. I think a lot of people sensitize their skin. I think they get into the sort of the fallacy of doing too much, and then what happens is they end up reacting to things. You know, I think there are definitely a pool of people who have sensitive skin and you can kind of identify them. They, they turn red, they get breakouts, they get scaly rashes. But that's not a large percent of people. Most of us tend to have fairly neutral skin. It's just when we start to do too much to it that we start to run into issues. And kids in particular, their barriers are not fully formed yet. So those irritants and allergens are more likely to penetrate deeper into the skin and not to knock like kids doing a routine, getting them into the habit of washing their faces again. A cleanser, a moisturizer and sunscreen. I can't knock them doing that at the age of even 9. Right. Getting a teenage boy to wash their face even once a day is wonderful. Right. It would be a major win right there if we got them to start cleaning the greasiness and the dirt because it'll help them down the line. Not to genderize skincare, but I've dated.
- [21:02]
Kyra Blackwell
Many a man who still use Dial.
- [21:03]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Dial Dial or Irish Spring.
- [21:05]
Dane Brugler
I don't just get that bottle of Cerave style hand soap for their.
- [21:13]
Kyra Blackwell
Above all else, keep it simple. You want a good cleanser, a good moisturizer and a great sunscreen that you will use every single day. But if you want to spice things up a little bit, then you can add on a retinol, which you can get over the counter for fairly cheap. And that can do wonders for your skin, but you have to give it time. Same goes with vitamin C. Pretty good, but you're going to want to set your expectations a little bit lower.
- [21:38]
Dane Brugler
We're going to take a quick break and when we're back, we're going to talk about Wirecutters skincare coverage with senior staff writer Rory Evans. We'll be right back.
- [21:56]
Unknown
Hi, it's Alexa Weibel from New York Times Cooking. We've got tons of easy weeknight recipes and today I'm making my five ingredient creamy miso pasta. You just take your starchy pasta water, whisk it together with a little bit of miso and butter until it's creamy, add your noodles and a little bit of cheese.
- [22:13]
Rory Evans
Hmm.
- [22:14]
Unknown
It's like a grown up box of Mac and cheese. That feels like a restaurant quality dish. New York Times Cooking has you covered with easy dishes for busy weeknights. You can find more@nytcooking.com.
- [22:33]
Kyra Blackwell
Welcome back. Before the break, we dove really deep with Dr. Nikhil Dhingra about how to build a simple skincare routine and the products that actually work. Now we're going to get into the products Wirecutter has actually tested. We've finally taken the plunge into testing skincare and it shouldn't be surprising that we found some really great picks and many are really, really affordable, which is so great to hear. Here to talk with us now is Rory Evans. She's Wirecutter's skincare writer who's been covering this area for over 20 years. She's also previously worked at Allure, Real Simp and Martha Stewart.
- [23:05]
Dane Brugler
Rory, welcome to the show.
- [23:07]
Rory Evans
Thank you.
- [23:07]
Dane Brugler
It's, it's really nice to have you here. You just came out with guides to facial moisturizers, exfoliants, retinols and vitamin C. Right. So as you approached the testing and kind of determining what would be the recommended products in our guides, how did you make sure that the things that we're recommending will be useful and applicable to as wide a group of of people as possible?
- [23:31]
Rory Evans
I start any guide by going to Sephora, Target, cvs, Walgreens, a local family owned pharmacy. And I'm just like writing down names, snapping pictures and paying attention to like, oh, that's like a low shelf and looks kind of dusty. But like, what's that brand? Or also like what's sold out at Target because clearly that's kind of a good clue. And then I also ask Wirecutter staffers, what do you use? What have you loved? What have you used? And Hated what have you used and sort of outgrown or what have you brought into your skincare as you've gotten older? And then also talk to a couple cosmetic chemists, three, sometimes four dermatologists get their what to look for. And then you go online and you read so many reviews. Again, approaching it like a shopper, but almost like a full time shopper, like someone who really just digs into and goes to the 10th page of the reviews. And all those things that I think all of us at Wirecutter kind of look at.
- [24:31]
Kyra Blackwell
I know when I'm testing sunscreens, like I will do the same process, I will go through and I'll try out all these sunscreens myself and then when I finally eliminate enough to maybe a group of four, five, six sunscreens, then I will send it out to other Wirecutter staffers to test and what we call panel testing. So what number do you usually look to narrow it down to before you start group testing your picks?
- [24:54]
Rory Evans
I test more than five, but I panel test more than five because we usually send to different skin types. I will maybe have a couple different panels like dry skin, sensitive skin, oily skin, and then each of those panels gets four or five to test.
- [25:16]
Kyra Blackwell
And what do you usually ask them to look for when they're testing perceived.
- [25:20]
Rory Evans
Benefits, like, how do you feel this is working? How do you enjoy using it? Is it easy to use? What are the overall vibes? Do you hate the fragrance? Sometimes fragrance free products still have an aroma to them because they don't have masking agents. I also just ask them, like, what am I forgetting to ask you? You know, when you have wet hands, is this cap too small to actually deal with?
- [25:47]
Dane Brugler
And one thing that I can only imagine that some listeners might be wondering because I think in the sort of cosmetic world there's a lot of freebies that happen. Like I think even with dermatologists, they're sent things for free. How does that play in to how we test? Are you ever taking a product that a company is pushing towards you or is it truly just going out as a shopper and saying these are the things that we think shoppers will be most interested in?
- [26:11]
Rory Evans
Yeah, it's that. And sometimes like a publicist will say, oh, like you're, I'm going to send you such and such moisturizer. But I have three other brands and they have great moisturizers. I'm going to send those to you too. And I'm like, no, please don't. Like, I just can't Accept it, I.
- [26:27]
Rosie Guerin
Imagine, Rory, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we hear from a lot of wirecutter experts that the testing they do is brand concealed. Was that the case with you, where you're doing this panel testing and you're removing the labels?
- [26:42]
Rory Evans
I don't like. My first interaction is with the labels. The products that I send to the panels are usually brand concealed. I tape over anything that says the brand name.
- [26:53]
Kyra Blackwell
But I love how you also split up your panel testers based off of their skin type. I wanted to ask, too, about people specifically with melanated skin, because I feel like the skincare industry has historically just kind of overlooked that category of people. Do you take that into account when you are testing for different skincare products? And have you found that melanated skin does react differently to some products?
- [27:16]
Rory Evans
We definitely take into account when I'm sending stuff to panel, I want panels to be age inclusive, like skin type inclusive, and also like black women, white women, men, someone who has a beard stuff. You know, the various things. So we do take that into account a lot. Like, we loved. There was a face cream that we tried and we loved it, or two of us loved it. And then a third tester who has melanade skin, she loved the feel, she loved the vibe. And she was like, it made my skin look gray all day. And we were like, oh, like, that can't be a pick.
- [27:54]
Dane Brugler
Earlier in the show, we talked with Dr. Dhingra, our expert dermatologist, about how there's basically like a holy trinity of face care products. And those include face wash, moisturizer, and sunscreen. So let's talk a little bit about what you did with moisturizer. What was your team looking for when you were testing moisturizers? And what should people know about them?
- [28:16]
Rory Evans
Oh, we were looking for very specific ingredients. Cause the other thing is that there's hundreds of them out there and they're all, like, very close in experience, or they all kind of look the same, or they all feel the same. So we dug into the ingredients and looked at ingredient panels on that. And we talked to dermatologists, and they said, look for glycerin, squalene, niacinamide, ceramides. These are all sort of, like very moisturizing ingredients that will keep water in your skin, attract moisture to your skin. Those are the ingredients we really looked for. And we kind of made sure that, like, everything that we recommend has at.
- [28:57]
Dane Brugler
Least a good number of these ingredients. How much did packaging play into it? One of my biggest pet peeves is like, I can feel there is more in the bottle, but I can't get to it. Like, if I have a pump bottle.
- [29:07]
Kyra Blackwell
Yeah.
- [29:08]
Dane Brugler
How did you assess packaging?
- [29:09]
Rosie Guerin
I've done like project. I'm like slicing open pump bottles with a bread knife and I'm like, there's gotta be a better way.
- [29:18]
Rory Evans
We definitely considered packaging, I wanna say, for the moisturizers. A number of them are in tubes. Some of them are in tubs that have a pump. Obviously just take the lid off and do the thing where you're kind of like scraping and.
- [29:33]
Kyra Blackwell
That's nice.
- [29:34]
Rory Evans
Yeah.
- [29:34]
Dane Brugler
In this episode, Rory, we're really making an argument that you don't need to overspend on skincare. And in the guides you've written, there are products with a wide rang range of prices. And I don't know about you, but I always love doing kind of like a high, low and understanding what you get at different price points. So I'm hoping that you can tell us a little bit. Specifically for moisturizers, what is the least expensive and what is the most expensive? And kind of what are the differences between those?
- [30:00]
Rory Evans
The most expensive is the Augustinus Bader.
- [30:03]
Dane Brugler
Which is recommended by all beautiful celebrities everywhere. It's a beautiful blue bottle and it's like $300.
- [30:08]
Rory Evans
Yeah. It's incredibly expensive. More than a few wirecutter staffers recommended it. Sort of said it's a holy grail.
- [30:15]
Dane Brugler
What was the low end that you recommend in that guide?
- [30:17]
Rory Evans
We have a vanacream in that guide. And it's funny because the one that I have and I've been using it this winter is it still has the price tag on it from my local like mom and pop pharmacy. And it's $7.99.
- [30:31]
Kyra Blackwell
Love that.
- [30:31]
Rory Evans
Yeah.
- [30:32]
Dane Brugler
So you could go anywhere from $7.99 to around $300 within our picks. But in the delta between those prices, what are you getting for that $300 versus the $799? Are you getting an actual, like, improvement in what it's going to do to your skin or is it more about the experience of using it?
- [30:51]
Rory Evans
I would say it's the experience. The other thing is that like some people, it's their self care, it's their splurge. It's like, you know, it's like how they feel special. Like moisturizer always fits. It doesn't matter if you've gained weight, lost weight, whatever. You can spend money on it, use it, feel great about it.
- [31:12]
Dane Brugler
There's value to the way something is Going to make you feel. Now if you're kind of like me and just like to spreadsheet everything and you can separate your emotions from it. You could go with the 7.99 van cream for sure.
- [31:23]
Kyra Blackwell
Okay.
- [31:24]
Rory Evans
And with the vanicream, one of the panel testers said that she wanted to put her vanicream in an empty high end bottle so that like.
- [31:32]
Dane Brugler
So that she could, like, she could feel more special.
- [31:34]
Rory Evans
Yes.
- [31:35]
Dane Brugler
Yeah.
- [31:36]
Rosie Guerin
Okay, Rory, let's talk about retinols.
- [31:37]
Rory Evans
Okay.
- [31:38]
Rosie Guerin
Talk about your picks. I also wanna know, how did your skin survive all of this testing?
- [31:45]
Rory Evans
My skin survived all this testing because I was using so much moisturizer. I've used more moisturizer since starting this job than I have probably in the six years prior to this. I just use so much moisturizer, I can't.
- [31:59]
Rosie Guerin
I picture a bucket where you're like bobbing for apples into moisturizer a little bit. All right, so retinols. Okay, talk to me about your picks.
- [32:07]
Rory Evans
For retinols. We have varying Strengths. We chose Skinmedica. We love that. For the stronger, the 1.0 strength of it.
- [32:17]
Dane Brugler
And how much does that cost?
- [32:18]
Rory Evans
The price creeps up as the strength of the retinol creeps up. That's. For the Stronger1, it's 90 in the 90s, somewhere, maybe in the 80s.
- [32:26]
Dane Brugler
What's on the low end?
- [32:27]
Rory Evans
The low end is Trader Joe's $9.99.
- [32:31]
Rosie Guerin
Wow.
- [32:32]
Rory Evans
That is 0.33.
- [32:33]
Dane Brugler
To clarify, for this guide, you tested retinols, not retinoids. So you tested retinols, the over the counter type of retinol. That's like a precursor to a retinoid, right?
- [32:44]
Alexa Weibel
Yes.
- [32:44]
Rory Evans
Yeah.
- [32:44]
Dane Brugler
Okay.
- [32:44]
Rory Evans
Yeah. We wouldn't test prescription.
- [32:47]
Dane Brugler
The prescription strength. All right, so let's talk about the last category that you tested, which was vitamin C. We just talked to Dr. Dhingra about this, about how he does recommend it, but that he thinks it's kind of overrated in general. And I think you found something similar in your research, right?
- [33:02]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Absolutely.
- [33:02]
Rory Evans
Yeah. I want to say every. Every dermatologist, every cosmetic chemist that I spoke to for that guide was like, asterisk, caveat. It's sort of overrated, or promises are huge. The delivery is not quite that, and it's really better for prevention than the cure. Yeah.
- [33:22]
Dane Brugler
So what is your high end? What is your low end?
- [33:26]
Rory Evans
Oh, our high end is skinceuticals.
- [33:29]
Dane Brugler
And that one, what, it's like $180.
- [33:32]
Dr. Nikhil Dhingra
Oh, my God.
- [33:33]
Dane Brugler
Just like a little tiny bottle, really?
- [33:35]
Rory Evans
We wouldn't be talking about vitamin C, and the dermatologist would not be talking about vitamin C except for skinceuticals. I really feel like it created this category.
- [33:43]
Dane Brugler
Is the $180. Like, what are you getting for that $180? Why did people like it so much?
- [33:48]
Rory Evans
They liked it because it was. And again, it was sort of like hidden, taped, and people had no idea. But they liked how it felt. They liked how it absorbed. They liked how it made their skin look as they used it.
- [34:03]
Kyra Blackwell
When you're really paying that much more for the product, if you don't know what you're testing, like, your panel testers didn't know, would you say that they would rate the skinceuticals as the obvious winner of the test, or are there cheaper options that are, like, pretty much just as good?
- [34:19]
Rory Evans
There are definitely more affordable options that people really liked, and people like things for different reasons. And the other thing that's worth noting is that skinceuticals smell a little bit funky. It doesn't smell great. So there were other, like, I want to say the La Roche Posay kind of looks similar to that, and some people thought it smelled better.
- [34:39]
Dane Brugler
And how much does that one cost?
- [34:40]
Rory Evans
I want to say that one's like $38. And the naturium was like. I want to say it's less than 20. People really like it. It's a squeeze. It's a kind of a dewy drop. It's not as runny. It's not. You don't use, like, a dropper. It's not like you're feeding a baby bird with it. And. And also the timeless. The timeless is really close formula wise to the skinceuticals.
- [35:04]
Dane Brugler
And how much is that one?
- [35:05]
Rory Evans
$26. You don't have to spend a lot of money to get something that works for you.
- [35:16]
Kyra Blackwell
Before we wrap, we usually ask all of our guests one final question. What's the last thing you bought that you've really loved?
- [35:23]
Rory Evans
I. I bought some East Fork pottery, some bowls, and it's this great, like, Asheville company, and I make this salad that looks so beautiful in this blue bowl that it actually makes me want to eat salad. It's serving so many purposes for me, but it's just really beautiful, and I'm really happy with it.
- [35:44]
Rosie Guerin
To recap, pick the skincare that you'll actually use and pick pottery you'll actually eat salad from.
- [35:52]
Dane Brugler
It's the secret to life.
- [35:53]
Rory Evans
Exactly.
- [35:54]
Kyra Blackwell
I don't think there's ever going to be a bowl that Pretty for me.
- [35:57]
Rosie Guerin
Rory, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you.
- [36:00]
Rory Evans
Thanks for having me.
- [36:08]
Rosie Guerin
Y'All. That was a jam packed episode. Skincare from all directions.
- [36:13]
Dane Brugler
The great thing, though, is that both of our experts really agreed on a lot of things just around the kind of value of the drugstore stuff.
- [36:20]
Kyra Blackwell
Yeah, I learned so much.
- [36:22]
Rosie Guerin
What are your takeaways for this one?
- [36:24]
Kyra Blackwell
My takeaway is that you really need to go slow and steady. And I will be the first person to admit that I'm impatient when it comes to all things. But definitely with skincare, you want something like you want to buy a product and then it works the next day. Like your skin is just glowy and beautiful and everything has changed in your life and you're beautiful. But this is really one of those things that you have to give it time, at least three months. So you just have to be patient.
- [36:47]
Rosie Guerin
I think mine is similar, the sort of behavioral side of things where whatever you do know yourself reach for things that you actually are going to use. So maybe that might mean spending a little bit more, maybe that might be spending a little bit less. Maybe that might mean reaching for something that's a texture that you actually like and are going to incorporate rather than something sort of aspirational. Because at the end of the day, using the product is. Is what is going to help you see results, whatever the product is.
- [37:21]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, I, I agree with that. And I, I also think that in the world of active ingredients, there are only kind of like a few that you really should focus on. It's like those retinoids, the. Maybe the vitamin C. Personally, I'm gonna keep using my CeraVe face wash and moisturizer, which I used for years.
- [37:36]
Rosie Guerin
Yeah.
- [37:37]
Dane Brugler
But I also, I think I'm gonna reach a little fancier a little higher at the drugstore for the French products. The, the La Roche Posay. That seemed to be coming up quite a bit.
- [37:45]
Rosie Guerin
Yes, yes.
- [37:46]
Kyra Blackwell
So fancy.
- [37:47]
Dane Brugler
So I, I think I'll be trying out. I've tried some of their. I like their sunscreen, I like their hyaluronic acid. So I think I'm going to try their face moisturizer next time.
- [37:55]
Rosie Guerin
Love that. If you want to find out more about Wirecutter's skincare coverage, if you want to check out any of the products that Rory, Dr. Dhingra mentioned today, go to nytimes.com wirecutter or you can find a link in the show notes. That's it for up. That's it for skincare. We'll be back next week talking about plants. Thanks for listening.
- [38:22]
Kyra Blackwell
The Wirecutter show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Ba Itupe and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.
- [38:47]
Dane Brugler
I'm Christine Cyrclassette.
- [38:48]
Rosie Guerin
And I'm Rosie Guerin.
- [38:50]
Kyra Blackwell
Thanks for listening.
- [38:59]
Rory Evans
We say that you really shouldn't be doing it on the same night.
- [39:03]
Kyra Blackwell
Well, I'm. I'm definitely doing it on the same night.