Kyra Blackwell (1:35)

Yeah, I'm really excited to learn more too, and I'm excited for the person who's going to take us on this journey. It's Jen Sullivan. She is amazing. She's a senior editor here at Wirecutter on the beauty team and she's been covering beauty for at least 25 years. So she's gonna really walk us through the basics of moisturizer. What you know, what you think you might know and how to apply them and keep your skin smooth, soft and hydrated all winter long.

Rosie Guerin (2:02)

So 60,000 questions for Jen after the break. We'll be right back.

Vaughn Vreeland (2:15)

As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out LinkedIn, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. Post your job LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote promoted jobs. Get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Find out why more than two and a half million million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Wirecutter that's LinkedIn.com Wirecutter to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

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Kyra Blackwell (3:51)

Welcome back. With us now is Jen Sullivan, a senior editor on Wirecutter's beauty team who's been covering beauty for at least 25 years. She also hosted her own award winning podcast, Fat Mascar. So Jen really is a pro.

Rosie Guerin (4:04)

Hi, Jen.

TurboTax Advertiser (4:05)

Hi.

Rosie Guerin (4:05)

Hi. Today we're talking moisturizer and we're gonna zoom way out to start. So can you just first explain what we mean when we say moisturizer? What are we talking about?

Jen Sullivan (4:14)

We can mean a lot of things, but I think we talk about topical products you put on your skin to add back in hydration, lock in hydration, prevent water loss, soften your skin. They do a lot of things.

Rosie Guerin (4:27)

And who is it good for? Who needs to be using moisturizer?

Jen Sullivan (4:30)

I would argue all of us at some point in our lives. Because, you know, when you're young, your skin barrier's not super strong. You might not be good at holding in moisture. As you get older, your skin gets drier.

Rosie Guerin (4:41)

And explain what you mean by skin.

Jen Sullivan (4:42)

Barrier, meaning your cell's ability to hold in the water that is in your skin is not as strong as someone who's a little bit older. Because I was talking about kids in that particular example.

Rosie Guerin (4:53)

Gotcha.

Kyra Blackwell (4:53)

So, Jen, say somebody does the Wirecutter method at home and maybe they buy like three different brands to try at once. What should their testing process actually look like?

Jen Sullivan (5:04)

Oh, I'm so glad they're trying to mimic what we do in the office because we put a lot of work into it. If you want to buy three and you want to try, I mean, I would say buy one, see if it works, and then buy the other two. But if you have sensitive skin, I would say patch test first. Just use a little bit to make sure that it doesn't irritate you.

Kyra Blackwell (5:20)

Right on contact on any part of your body.

Jen Sullivan (5:22)

Dermatologists say. And by the way, guys, I am not a dermatologist. So everything I'm saying, take with a grain of salt. Try your body first and make sure that you like the scent, it doesn't bother you, all that kind of stuff.

Kyra Blackwell (5:34)

Got it.

Jen Sullivan (5:34)

And then I don't know if people are gonna like this, but at least 30 days to see how it works for your skin.

Rosie Guerin (5:40)

30 days.

Jen Sullivan (5:41)

It takes that long for your skin to, like, turn over and get a new set of skin cells going. So you really wanna, like, see how it worked through that whole process.

Kyra Blackwell (5:48)

And you really do have to pinpoint. So if you're gonna add something new to your routine, don't change anything else. So if you do see something wrong, you can know exactly what the problem is. Right.

Jen Sullivan (5:56)

It's spoken like a wire cutter editor. Yes. Single variable.

Kyra Blackwell (6:00)

Really.

Jen Sullivan (6:00)

Yes.

Kyra Blackwell (6:01)

So can you tell us what people should look for to know if the moisturize. If it isn't working?

Jen Sullivan (6:07)

I feel like a good moisturizer you're gonna forget about, like, you're gonna find yourself using it. Cause your skin feels comfortable and good. It doesn't feel like anything. It doesn't make you feel worse. And your skin is acting the way it should.

Kyra Blackwell (6:19)

Yeah.

Rosie Guerin (6:19)

And if it's not, you're itchy, you're maybe a little red, you're maybe just a little. Yeah.

Jen Sullivan (6:24)

Well, then definitely change things up.

Rosie Guerin (6:27)

Change it. Change it up. Okay, so this guide, this specifically this facial moisturizer guide. We have seven picks and eight in the body lotion guide. Can you first explain the difference between facial moisturizer and body lotion? Because I think many people use them interchangeably. Some people use them interchangeably.

Kyra Blackwell (6:48)

Or at least want to.

Rosie Guerin (6:49)

Or at least want to.

Jen Sullivan (6:50)

The difference between face moisturizer and body moisturizer is marketing. No way. Yes. I mean, there are products. There are body products you can use on your face, face products you can use on your body. It depends on you and your particular skin needs. But by and large, it's A lot of same ingredients in both those types of products. I will say that the body skin tends to be drier. So those products tend to be like richer formulas, a little bit thicker, maybe more occlusives, which are those skincare protecting. They protect the barrier of the skin. Like a Vaseline petroleum jelly is an occlusive. Yes, but there are lots of others. But, like, some people don't like the feel of a thicker product on their face. It feels greasy. And your face has more oil glands, so it's kind of got its own moisture going on that you might not always find on your body. But by and large, if, like, a product works for you all over, you only need one product.

Rosie Guerin (7:41)

Live your life.

Kyra Blackwell (7:49)

So is there a cheat sheet for people to know or remember where, like, they know that they have a skin type? What kind of moisturizer will match with that skin type? How do you make that decision a little bit easier?

Jen Sullivan (8:03)

It's all preference. It really is. That's why we have so many choices, because we want to give you options. There's no set math equation of, like, drier skin needs more of X ingredient. It's different for everybody. We're unique people. We have a whole microbiome that's completely different than the person next to us. We like different things. How they feel, how they smell, all of that. So that's why we have so many choices. I will say, if you tend to be on the drier side, our testers found this. A dermatologist would say that thicker, more occlusive, more hydrating, richer might be the word that I'm trying to use. Those are the products you might want to look for. If you have oily skin and you put that on, a lot of people come away being like that made me greasy. Yeah. So you don't want that. Yeah.

LinkedIn/Northwestern Mutual Advertiser (8:44)

Okay.

Kyra Blackwell (8:45)

And when it comes to moisturizing, what do you think is the most misunderstood skin type?

Jen Sullivan (8:50)

I mean, I would talk to a dermatologist to really get into this, but for me, it's probably sensitivity in general, the idea of sensitive skin. I think a lot of people think they're inherently just so sensitive, but what's really going on is something in their environment or some product that they're using. Not even a skincare product could be like the laundry detergent or the air was drier.

Rosie Guerin (9:10)

So cleaning products.

Jen Sullivan (9:12)

Yeah. And then. And then we try and fix the problem. We use more stuff to fix the problem, and paring back and making things simpler might be the fix. So I think that's Kind of a misunderstood concept. And the thing to be careful of with this moisturizer that we didn't touch on yet is the idea of active ingredients. These are the treatment ingredients. Like, they might be in your face lotion, but they're for treating things. These are like retinols, peptides, sometimes alpha hydroxy acids. If you're just looking for moisture, don't pick something with actives. Just look for the hydrating ingredients, because those actives can set up where you're building sensitivity.

Rosie Guerin (9:48)

What are people doing wrong when they're applying moisturizer?

Jen Sullivan (9:51)

I would say let's call some people.

Rosie Guerin (9:52)

Out, ideally by name, if you have any Rosie examples.

Jen Sullivan (9:57)

Oh, we could get into that. But I think that the thing they're doing wrong is waiting till they're dry to apply the moisturizer. Most people, you want to do it before you got in a cycle of. My skin is dry and flaky and itchy. So you want to apply it when your skin is just acting normal and you want to upkeep the hydration and also do it when skin is damp. And I went through years of being a beauty editor being like, oh, every time I try to apply moisturizer to damp skin, it gets all slimy or filmy. You've all heard this tip, right? Like, make sure your skin's damp when you apply your moisturizer. Lock in that water that's already there. So I talked to all these dermatologists and finally come to realize the word damp is, like, different for many people. I was picturing, like, got out of the shower, didn't towel off yet. I am damp.

Rosie Guerin (10:40)

You're wet.

Jen Sullivan (10:41)

No, no, they're like, you can towel off. It's just within, like, the three minutes of toweling off, there's still moisture in your skin that hasn't started evaporating out of your skin yet. They consider that to be damp skin. Oh. So if you start trying to put moisturizer on wet skin or just out of the shower, not towel dried, haven't you noticed? It gets slimy? It's really grim. It does get slimy, but you're thinking in your head, oh, the derms told me I gotta do it while it's wet. You're mixing your moisturizer with the water on your skin. You're watering it down. So by damp, what they mean is the skin has an inherent dampness still in its, like, epidermis, but it might be dry to the touch. Does that make sense?

Kyra Blackwell (11:19)

It does. And I learned something new today.

Jen Sullivan (11:21)

Yeah, we're talking about moisture here, but the idea is hydration. So there's things other than moisturizer that you can do to make sure you're more hydrated. And one of them is the shower temperature. Hot water really does dry out your skin.

Kyra Blackwell (11:32)

No, you can't take my hot water.

Jen Sullivan (11:33)

I know. And nobody likes to hear that hot.

Rosie Guerin (11:35)

Water dries out your skin.

Jen Sullivan (11:36)

It absolutely does. It softens the lipid layer so that, like, your body loses moisture. Moisture more quickly.

Rosie Guerin (11:41)

The most incomprehensible thing to me, maybe in all of the world is the idea of getting out of the shower, drying off and then just going about your day.

Jen Sullivan (11:52)

Can you imagine millions of us that. Can you imagine? I can. Some days. I am that person.

Rosie Guerin (11:58)

It's our producer, Abigail.

Kyra Blackwell (11:59)

Our producer's raising Abigail and you.

Rosie Guerin (12:02)

Why?

Jen Sullivan (12:03)

Well, what and why? Some people don't feel dry and some people don't have. It's like a muscle memory thing. That's your habit. You're used to it. But there's plenty of people that just go about their day.

Rosie Guerin (12:18)

How do things like age, pregnancy, menopause change people's skin? I guess number one. And moisturizing needs.

Jen Sullivan (12:26)

Yeah. Generally, the older you get, the drier skin gets. And they say that the most hydrated will ever be is before age 40. So after that you're starting to get drier. Your skin doesn't retain moisture as well. And then as far as, like, how hormones affect your skin, this is something that happens to all genders. Like, if your hormones are fluctuating, that affects how your skin looks and feels. So if you have changes that are sudden, I would say talk to a dermatologist. Like, something could be going on.

Rosie Guerin (12:52)

That's interesting. I feel like when you're 10, maybe turn down the temperature of your shower and then when you're 20, turn it down a couple more degrees and when you're 30, turn it down and then by 40, you'll be tepid and used to cold water, you'll be used to cold water and then you don't have to. Yeah. Worry about that moisture. All right, I'm going to recap here. Moisturizer is important and if you are going to test out a moisturizer, maybe test it out certainly your body before face. Facial moisturizer, body moisturizer. Oftentimes it's marketing language that's differentiating the two. But put this moisturizer on when your skin is damp. Just do it. We are going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to do some myth busting with Jen. Plus, we'll talk about some key techniques you may not know when it comes to really locking that moisture in.

LinkedIn/Northwestern Mutual Advertiser (13:48)

Stick around.

Vaughn Vreeland (14:01)

As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs when you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free. Share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. Post your job LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote Promoted jobs. Get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Wirecutter that's LinkedIn.com Wirecutter to post your job for free.

LinkedIn/Northwestern Mutual Advertiser (15:01)

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Kyra Blackwell (15:44)

Our guest today is Jen Sullivan, a senior editor on Wirecutter's Beauty Team. Today's episode is all about moisturizer. So, Jen, when you're walking down a drugstore aisle, there's so much to take in. You look left and right and there are all these market terms and all these really pretty labels, and you just don't know what to pick. So in your guide, it mentions that every dermatologist who was interviewed recommended looking for three key ingredients, and that's humectants, emollients, and occlusives. Can you just break down quickly what each of these are? And basically what they do?

Jen Sullivan (16:16)

Humectants attract moisture to the skin, either from deeper in the skin or from you know, the environment. Occlusives lock in moisture. And then emollients are actually skin softeners. Some of the humectants can be an emollient, some of the occlusives can be an emollient. But these are the things that sort of make your skin feel better.

Kyra Blackwell (16:36)

Okay. Will it say that on the label for each moisturizer?

Jen Sullivan (16:40)

It won't. But a humectant, again, the things that attract moisture are things like glycerin and hyaluronic acid.

Rosie Guerin (16:46)

Okay.

Jen Sullivan (16:46)

An occlusive is that those are the locking in ones. This kind of makes sense to me. They're like the oils. They're the thicker ones. They're the plant oils, the shea butters, the petrolatums. The ones that, like, if you slathered it on it would make like a protective barrier. Those are the occlusive ingredients. And then the emollients, those skin softeners. Again, some of the things I just mentioned can also be emollient. But something like Squalane is like a true emollient.

Kyra Blackwell (17:10)

Got it. And usually when you like, you don't have to look at the label and look for any one of these things because the odds are that they always have all three.

Jen Sullivan (17:18)

Yes. And you can just go to our wire cutter guide because all of our picks have all three.

Kyra Blackwell (17:22)

Right. And you do the work for us.

Rosie Guerin (17:23)

Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell (17:24)

Thank you.

Rosie Guerin (17:24)

What a cheeky plug. What are some other popular marketing buzzwords that you might see or in the drugstore beauty aisle, things that might sound important, but actually maybe aren't.

Jen Sullivan (17:36)

How long do we have?

Rosie Guerin (17:38)

As much as much time as we want.

Jen Sullivan (17:40)

The names of these products, they're like 15 words long and they have a complex and it brightens. And then we've got essences and we've got this and that, and it's all marketing. The majority of those terms are not regulated. The one that gets me is medical grade. A cosmetic is a cosmetic. It is not a medicine. Medical grade means nothing with regards to skincare. Natural's another one. Natural means nothing. Glycerin feels like, ooh. It feels like chemistry class can be from a natural source. But I get our instinct to want something that feels more natural. Feels like I'm not putting an unnecessary product on my body. So I think that's why companies use that word so much. And they might themselves define it as something that came from a plant based source. But there's no regulation in the government as to what that means. So it depends on how the company is defining the word. Themselves. Right.

Rosie Guerin (18:30)

Plant based is another thing that you see, I feel like. And it's without regulation, it's hard to know unless you go digging.

Jen Sullivan (18:37)

Right, Correct. Like squalene can be plant based. It can come from olives. That's plant based. Doesn't really sound like something like coconut oil, which sounds truly plant based. Right.

Kyra Blackwell (18:46)

Jen, Most of the pics in our guide are affordable drugstore brands. They're very affordable. Like, you won't feel bad about buying them on the regular because you're not, not spending a bunch of money. But there are a couple that just aren't. They are maybe a hundred dollars more. You have one, I think it's the Augustinus Bader Rich cream, which sounds expensive. And it's like $300. Why would somebody pay that much for something that they could get for much cheaper?

Jen Sullivan (19:14)

Because they can afford to. Truly. I think the moisturizer you want to use and that you like is based on what is my budget, what am I looking for, what am I going to know? I reach for again. And I will say the testers that tried that product pretty much all loved it. It's a luxurious experience and you want to feel good. It's the same with your food or your clothes or whatever. There's all levels that you can pay for. It's based on your own budget, your own choices, where you want to put your money. So, I mean, I wouldn't judge that. And that product is quite lovely.

Kyra Blackwell (19:44)

But what makes it lovelier than the.

Jen Sullivan (19:46)

Rest, the story that they're telling about it, the bottle that it's in, it has some proprietary ingredients you might not find in others. And maybe one of those, when you put it on your skin, you were like, this is the thing that solved all my problems. And if that' and that product is making your life better, go for it.

Kyra Blackwell (20:02)

I like that. Okay, I'm not doing that, but I appreciate.

Rosie Guerin (20:06)

And the testing, the testing is brand concealed. Right.

Jen Sullivan (20:08)

So it depends on the guide. We sometimes do two levels of testing. We first have our guide writer tested themselves and they know what the brands are and then they brand conceal it for others. So it all depends on which guide we're talking about. The body lotions. We also have a shower gel, soaps. I mean, soaps was kind of hard to brand conceal.

Rosie Guerin (20:25)

Yeah, yeah. This $300 moisturizer, though, I mean, I feel like if it's brand concealed and people are loving it, it's compelling. If you have $300 to try, I.

Jen Sullivan (20:36)

Mean, it's about texture for a lot of People too. Sometimes with a bit more money, a company could create a better texture because they're using ingredients that cost more at raw material level. I won't say that difference is from $10 to $300. But again, these companies are paying not just for the raw materials that are in the product. All that marketing, maybe you heard about that product because you saw it on Instagram. That didn't get there out of nowhere. There was a marketing budget put behind it. So oftentime expensive product. What you're paying for, maybe slightly is the cost of goods being more, but definitely the packaging because the packaging's like heavier, it's glass or it looks more beautiful. And definitely the marketing of like, oh, I heard so and so uses it or why is it always on my feed? And that is what you're paying for.

Rosie Guerin (21:19)

So texture is a consideration for folks. Another thing is how something smells. So what I imagine is fragrance. How did that factor into the testing and what are your thoughts there?

Jen Sullivan (21:30)

Huge factor for a lot of people. Generally speaking, if you have sensitive skin, dermatologists say to look for fragrance free products, which means there's no added fragrance. If you turn them over, you won't see the word parfum or fragrance on the ingredient label because these can be irritating. They're not irritating for all people though. So some of us like a scent because it encourages us to use it. So they might have fragrance in them. And that doesn't mean it's bad for you. There's no inherent problem with it unless it causes you irritation. So we have picks that are both fragrance free and those that also are just traditional and might have fragrances in them.

Rosie Guerin (22:04)

And I imagine unscented is not fragrance free.

Jen Sullivan (22:08)

Oh no, there's a big difference. Fragrance free means like no fragrance additives in there, which means actually sometimes when you smell the product, you'll smell something because you're smelling those moisturizers. Shea, for example, has a scent to it. And if you didn't add extra fragrances or masking fragrances, you're going to smell the shea, but it will still be fragrance free. Unscented is different. That's like they might only add a fragrance that masks that shea smell to get them to a neutral place. So it kind of doesn't smell like anything, but that doesn't mean it's fragrance free. There is that additive in there and it can still be causing irritation.

Rosie Guerin (22:44)

Got it. I think it is important. Back to this idea that fragrance might not be an issue. Like you might not have sensitive skin. It's Sort of narrowing down what your skin wants and what it doesn't want. And sometimes the only way to do that is to to sort of do that consistent testing for 30 days and figure out what's going on.

Jen Sullivan (23:03)

Exactly. And different fragrances affect people differently. So if you try one scented or fragranced product and you don't like it, doesn't immediately mean anything with fragrance is bad for you or it won't be good for you.

Rosie Guerin (23:14)

I love it.

Kyra Blackwell (23:22)

Which one do you use?

Jen Sullivan (23:23)

What's your favorite moisturizer from our guide? The Outsets Moisturizer is my favorite.

Rosie Guerin (23:27)

And is it face and body?

Jen Sullivan (23:30)

No, it's a smaller bottle, so I would not use it on my body. It's $44 when it's not on sale. So it's another reason I would not use it on my body. But I really like it, actually. I started at Wirecutter just six months ago and I was so thrilled when I got here that that was already a wirecutter pick. And I was like, yes, justified. But it has squalene in it. It feels right down middle of the road. Not too light, not too greasy. It's a nice glass bottle pump. Simple packaging. I use it every day. Love for a less expensive item option. Vanicream.

Kyra Blackwell (23:59)

Yeah, we love a van.

Rosie Guerin (24:00)

Shout out to vanicream.

Jen Sullivan (24:01)

Yeah, yeah. For me personally, yeah.

Rosie Guerin (24:04)

What about body oils? I've seen these in the drugstore. I've seen these on Instagram, I've seen these in bathrooms of.

Kyra Blackwell (24:12)

I mean, I'm seeing fancy people TikTok videos about like the steps that you should take in your just your moisturizing routine. You have to do the creamy and then you have to lock in with an oil, like, and then you have to do it all while you're damp. Like. Yeah, what about that?

Jen Sullivan (24:25)

Oils are not hydrating. I think there's a lot of people also that look at like moisturizers. Like I could just use petroleum jelly or I could just use olive oil from the bottle. Those are occlusives, which we talked about earlier. They're skin protectants. Lay down on the top of the skin and keep the moisture in there. But if you put them on dry skin, what moisture are you keeping in? You never put the moisture in to begin with. So now you've just locked in dry skin. You're protecting your skin so it might seem softer and it might have an emollient factor. So it like looks softer, feels softer, but inherently underneath that occlusive, it's dry. So I think what you're seeing is marketers would like you to put the moisturizer on and then lock it in with an oil. But going back to a good moisturizer, it's going to have some of those occlusive ingredients already in it.

Kyra Blackwell (25:11)

I like to do something with jojoba oil because it's very cheap and I always have access to it, even when I'm traveling.

Jen Sullivan (25:18)

That particular oil, and this is where it gets confusing, is both a humectant and an occlusive. And I'm sure you've probably noticed that it has an emollient property because it's softening your skin. But when you use multiple different kinds of these ingredients we talked about, you're getting a longer lasting kind of hydration. And I think it would be more effective. So it definitely works. And if it's working for you, keep doing it. I love a body oil, and especially when I'm outdoors, I like skiing, I like hiking. In the winter, I will put on moisturizer and then put a layer of an occlusive, such as Aquaphor or Vaseline. As we were talking about petroleum jelly or a face oil, the outset has a face oil I add in in winter or the body oils you were talking about. And I think a lot of people feel more comfortable. Their skin just feels nicer to them. They don't have that, like, itchy tightness when they do that extra step.

Rosie Guerin (26:05)

And theoretically you are kind of locking in whatever you've put on as a moisturizer. It's an additional step and it might not be needed necessarily, but it is. Can't hurt an extra lock, right?

Kyra Blackwell (26:16)

Yeah.

Jen Sullivan (26:16)

And it's a value proposition in a way because it keeps in that moisture you put in. And instead of applying moisturizer seven times throughout the day, because I. And I don't know why, and I put it back on. If you locked it in in the morning with the oil on top, that might work for you.

Kyra Blackwell (26:30)

And I don't want to fly by something that you've been pointing out throughout this episode, which is that aquaphor or petroleum jelly is not a moisturizer.

Jen Sullivan (26:38)

Yeah. Aquaphor isn't pure petroleum jelly. It has some other ingredients, but those skin protectants they're called, they don't moisturize inherently. They lock in the moisture like we said. So.

Rosie Guerin (26:49)

Oh, my gosh. I've been just putting aquaphor on my daughter's body after like bath time and thinking that that is the moisture that she needs. The moisturizer that she Needs.

Jen Sullivan (27:01)

She might have water in her skin from that bath. And she has her own. Like, skin has oil glands. It has its own lipid barrier layer. Like, there's moisturizers in our skin naturally. Natural moisturizing factors, they're called. So you are locking in something. But I think for a lot of people, if they're still dry and they keep slathering on, you know, an aquaphor. Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell (27:20)

Just letting your baby be ashy.

Jen Sullivan (27:22)

No, then moisturizing moisturizer first.

Kyra Blackwell (27:25)

Now we know.

Rosie Guerin (27:26)

Slip that into my back pocket. Can we talk order of operations? We spoke about getting out of the shower, getting out of the tub, whatever. Damp skin, and then a moisturizer. But what are the options in terms of a routine, and what order is recommended?

Jen Sullivan (27:43)

The basic way to think about it is thinnest to thickest thin products first. Treatment products first. If you use a retinol, that would be like, lower down earlier in the process, then your thicker products, like a moisture moisturizer. And then at the end, if it. Maybe if you wanted the oil that's thicker than a moisturizer, like a lotion, and then the last one's always sunscreen. But again, I don't know how many. I mean, I use, like, two things a day, so I don't know how many. I think this gets more complicated than six. And do you follow that from thinnest to thickest? Yeah, that's. I think people are worried, like, fantastic skin.

Kyra Blackwell (28:16)

Thank you.

Jen Sullivan (28:16)

It's working really hard at it. I think people get worried, like, oh, if I do it in the wrong order, it's gonna negate the effects of the other one. That's not really a thing. I wouldn't worry about that. It's more for comfort of skin and to make sure that they don't pill, which is when they get that little gummy, like rubber cement balls. I think of it in my head.

Rosie Guerin (28:33)

I don't like that.

Jen Sullivan (28:34)

Yeah, nobody likes that. So if that's happening, you want to, like, slow down as well. Like, you put something on, let it fully absorb, and wait to put on the next.

Rosie Guerin (28:41)

That was going to be my other question. There's not, like, a standard amount of time. You just got to let it absorb.

Jen Sullivan (28:45)

It's not really standard. Like, I've heard, like, oh, wait a minute. Between every product. I don't have. I don't have that time. I'm sitting in front of a mirror for 60 full seconds. Do you know how long 60 seconds is? No. So I think it's only if you're Having that pilling issue. And again, even waiting might sometimes not fix that issue. And if you wear makeup, that might throw a wrench in things, so you might want to play around with that. But generally, if you wait, you'll be less likely to have that pilling effect. But other than that, you don't necessarily have to wait a long time between these steps.

Rosie Guerin (29:15)

I don't know if this is a fair question, but does makeup often come after this moisturizing routine?

Jen Sullivan (29:23)

For most people, I would say they're putting. They're doing their skincare routine or moisturizing because moisturizer makes a nice base for like something like a foundation. We just came out with our foundation guide and we had everybody test them after they did their. Their regular skincare routine, whatever that meant to them. So, yes, it would come afterwards.

Rosie Guerin (29:41)

Got it. Okay.

Kyra Blackwell (29:47)

So, Jen, what if you are using the right moisturizer for your skin supposedly, but you just, you feel like you're just not hydrated enough? What are some other things that you could do?

Jen Sullivan (29:57)

This is a great question because I think we often just reach for a product to fix whatever's going on with us. But like eating good fats, making sure you're hydrated, that will help with it. Taking a slightly cooler shower, I'm not telling you. Yeah, okay, that might help, but these environmental factors, adding a humidifier at night, like if the air around you is dry, more moisture air, A humidifier could really help as well.

Kyra Blackwell (30:21)

Okay, let's do a little myth busting. True or false. You should switch up your moisturizer based.

Jen Sullivan (30:26)

On the season I'm going to go with. Depends on you and your skin. Some people might not need to do that. I tend to find a thicker moisturizer in the winter because my skin gets drier. But it's all depending on your preferences and your skin type.

TurboTax Advertiser (30:39)

Got it.

Jen Sullivan (30:39)

All right.

Rosie Guerin (30:40)

True or false. You should buy a separate eye cream because facial moisturizer doesn't do enough to firmly firm up that area on its own.

Jen Sullivan (30:48)

One quick clarification. Firm up isn't something that a moisturizer does. It moisturizes, it hydrates. It's not necessarily like making skin feel firmer and tighter.

Rosie Guerin (30:56)

What is an eye cream doing?

Jen Sullivan (30:57)

An eye cream. So if your moisturizer can go around your eyes so you have dryness around your eyes, and you can get your moisturizer up there without any sort of irritation, you might not need an eye cream. Some people can't. They need a gentler formula. But a lot of the eye creams and we're actually working on testing eye creams and treatments right now. A lot of them are for specific concerns. Like, I have a little bit of fine lines and texture. I have a darker under eye circle. I have puffiness, I have sagginess. Those are the things that you're going to need. Actives, I talked about earlier. Like, it's your moisturizer, but with a little extra something in to address that need. And one of those needs could be hydration. Like I need extra moisture in my eye area, then maybe, yeah, you would need an eye cream.

Kyra Blackwell (31:38)

True or false. You cannot over moisturize your skin.

Jen Sullivan (31:41)

I mean, you can't drown your skin, but. But I would say false because if you're putting on too much moisturizer and you're feeling greasy or you see your skin is breaking out, maybe you've caused, like some clogged pores there and you're getting some acne type bumps, you might be over moisturizing. So that could be possible.

Rosie Guerin (32:01)

All right, true or false. If it tingles when you apply it to your skin, that's how you know it's working.

Jen Sullivan (32:07)

I'm gonna say cranking. I'm gonna say false because I think. I think people think it does nothing unless they can feel it doing something. And in some cases, it's fine to have the tingle, but in many cases, the tingle is a sign that you are irritating your skin. That's what that tingle is. So it might actually be a bad thing.

Rosie Guerin (32:24)

Keep an eye on the tingle. I'm not going to let you ask this last question, Kyra, because I already know the answer to it from carefully listening to Jen throughout this episode. And the question was going to be true or false? Aquaphor is the best moisturizer. Not only is it not the best moisturizer, it's not a moisturizer at all.

Jen Sullivan (32:42)

We all learned something here.

Rosie Guerin (32:43)

We all learned something here today.

Kyra Blackwell (32:46)

Okay, so we've gotten to our last question, Jen. Before we wrap, we always ask our guests one final question, which is, what's the last thing you've bought that you've really loved? Does not have to be a wire cutter pick.

Jen Sullivan (32:56)

It's actually these shoes I'm wearing right now. This is the part of the show where I'm just gonna complain about my feet hurt. My feet hurt all the time.

Kyra Blackwell (33:04)

Get it?

Jen Sullivan (33:05)

And so in the summer, I'm a Birkenstein sock person, but you can't wear Birkenstocks in the winter. And I also like fit flops. Fit flops. Fit flops.

Rosie Guerin (33:13)

What is a fit flop?

Jen Sullivan (33:13)

A fit flop is a brand name for this like orthopedic looking kind of sandal. This is a fit flop. So it has the fit flop base on under my foot so it's real comfortable. But then it looks like a Doc.

Kyra Blackwell (33:25)

It looks like a Doc Marten.

Jen Sullivan (33:26)

It looks like a Doc, which is another shoe that like Doc Martens are heavy though. This is ridiculous. I'm getting my shoe off right now. Feel this thing for how big and chunky this looks.

Rosie Guerin (33:34)

It's got like a chunky, a two tiered sole and it's really light. It's really, it's like light as a croc almost.

Jen Sullivan (33:41)

Fit flops also, if you have. Yeah. Feet that are always in pain, try them.

Kyra Blackwell (33:45)

So what's the model?

Jen Sullivan (33:46)

The model of this fit flop is the F mode leather flat form Chelsea boot. So it looks like a Chelsea boot with a chunky platform sole. And this fit flop base, it's going.

Rosie Guerin (33:55)

To give you some height too.

Kyra Blackwell (33:56)

Yeah, I love that.

Rosie Guerin (33:57)

Yeah, I love that for you. I love that for you. Jen, thank you so much for joining us. This was very illuminating for me personally, but I hope will be helpful for our listeners too.

Jen Sullivan (34:07)

Thanks so much.

Kyra Blackwell (34:08)

Thank you.

Rosie Guerin (34:10)

Kyra, what did you learn today at school?

LinkedIn/Northwestern Mutual Advertiser (34:12)

Oh, my gosh.

Kyra Blackwell (34:13)

Well, I've learned that I don't have to be soaking wet to put on my moisturizer.

Rosie Guerin (34:18)

No, you don't, my friend.

Kyra Blackwell (34:19)

I, I've been struggling. I really have. I track water all through my house. I don't like it. I gotta put on my moisturizer before I dry out. Yeah. So I'm going to firmly towel off before I start my entire skincare routine. And I feel freer for that.

Rosie Guerin (34:33)

It's a game changer for you, buddy. Huge.

Kyra Blackwell (34:35)

What about you?

Rosie Guerin (34:37)

For me, I think when picking a moisturizer, you want to look for hydrating ingredients. You want to look for things like humectants which attract moisture. So like glycerin, hyaluronic acid. You want to look for occlusives that lock in moisturizers. So that might be plant oils and ceramides. And then you also want to look for emollients and those are going to soften skin like squash. So that was a big learn and a big takeaway for me. The other that's sort of turning things upside down for me is that occlusives are not moisturizers.

Kyra Blackwell (35:11)

That one's gonna haunt you, huh?

Rosie Guerin (35:12)

And said in a different way. Aquaphor is not a moisturizer. Vaseline is not a moisturizer.

Jen Sullivan (35:17)

Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell (35:17)

Now you know.

Rosie Guerin (35:22)

If you wanna find out more about Wirecutters coverage, if you wanna check out our guides for facial moisturizer, body lotion, or any of Jen or Jen's team's reporting, head to our website or you can find a link in the show notes. All right, thanks so much for listening. Bye. Bye.

Kyra Blackwell (35:41)

The Wirecutter show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Paul Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Ba Itou, Katherine Anderson, Rowan Nimisto and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Guerin (36:08)

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

Kyra Blackwell (36:10)

Thanks for listening.

Rosie Guerin (36:16)

I like to pat down instead of like a. Like a full. Like a rub. Dead towel down. And then I'm damp.

Jen Sullivan (36:25)

Yes.

Rosie Guerin (36:25)

And then the moisturizer goes on.

Kyra Blackwell (36:27)

Well, not that I knew that she's.

Rosie Guerin (36:28)

Gonna be R rated.

LinkedIn/Northwestern Mutual Advertiser (36:29)

This podcast is supported by Northwestern Mutual. As someone who trusts expert advice, you should do the same with your finances. So now is the right time to talk with a financial expert about money recommendations. Northwestern Mutual can match you with a financial professional who'll build a plan based on what's important to you. You looking out for your blind spots and finding new opportunities to help grow your wealth and protect what you've worked so hard for. Find a better way to money@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and Northwestern Mutual Wealth Management Company.