The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling | Episode 6: Natalie and Noah

Podcast: The Free Press Investigates
Date: March 21, 2023
Host: Megan Phelps-Roper

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into the accusations of transphobia and bigotry against J.K. Rowling, exploring the nuances behind her critics’ perspectives—especially within the transgender community. Host Megan Phelps-Roper, herself a former member of the Westboro Baptist Church, seeks genuine understanding by interviewing two critics: Natalie Wynn (ContraPoints), a prominent trans YouTuber, and Noah, a 17-year-old trans man. The episode focuses on their personal journeys, why Rowling’s statements hurt, and the broader cultural struggle for understanding and recognition of transgender people.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Megan’s Personal Background & Approach

• [03:25]–[08:54]
  • Megan recounts her own background as a former Westboro Baptist Church member, introducing the theme of questioning certainty, bigotry, and how people can be persuaded to shift views.
  • She highlights how both sides of the debate may feel persecuted or misunderstood.
  • Megan emphasizes the importance of humility and empathetic listening, setting the tone for subsequent interviews.

Notable Quote:
"I try to stay away from certainty, to remember that at any given moment, I am only seeing a tiny fraction of the world. I tell myself to embrace humility." – Megan ([06:55])

2. Interview with Natalie Wynn (ContraPoints)

Natalie’s Story and Online Prominence

• [09:26]–[13:24]
  • Natalie discusses her own gender journey, realizing she was transgender as an adult via internet communities.
  • YouTube was transformative, both for her identity and as a platform to share her transition openly.
  • Sharing privately felt easier when it was to an anonymous online audience.
  • Natalie gained notoriety but also became a prime target for abuse—first from anti-trans trolls, then from within the trans community itself after a controversial post about pronouns.

Notable Quote:
"I was suddenly very prominent, I was very visible, and all this attention, it ultimately led to a lot of transphobic hate." – Natalie Wynn ([13:08])

Cancel Culture, Shame, and Internal Community Dynamics

• [14:27]–[16:43]
  • Natalie experiences 'cancellation' from within her own community, helping her understand cycles of shame and aggression.
  • She links online mobbing and aggressive backlash to unresolved anger and trauma from societal exclusion.
  • She notes that sometimes trans people become scapegoats or harsh critics, projecting hurt.

Notable Quote:
"You want revenge—not just justice...and often the person we take revenge against is not really the one who’s responsible, but a symbol of all the pain that we feel." – Natalie Wynn ([16:13])

Natalie's Critique of Rowling: Direct vs. Indirect Bigotry

• [17:27]–[22:22]
  • Natalie distinguishes between ‘direct bigotry’ (Westboro Baptist style, overt and alienating) and ‘indirect bigotry’ (coded, plausible deniability, often framed as “concern”).
  • She argues Rowling’s approach falls under the latter, using factual claims as “subtext” for harmful stories about trans people.

Notable Quote:
"A fact on its own doesn’t mean very much. Usually when we discuss facts, we’re using those facts to tell a story. And facts can be used to tell bigoted stories." – Natalie Wynn ([22:00])

On ‘Just Asking Questions’ and Platform Responsibility

• [23:42]–[24:40]
  • Natalie is less concerned with intent and more with consequence.
  • Rowling’s visibility makes her choice of questions impactful—contributing, in Natalie’s view, to harm regardless of intent.

Notable Quotes:
"If you’re going to be someone with a huge platform who wants to pose these questions, you have to be responsible for the way you go about doing that." – Natalie Wynn ([24:11])

Addressing the Realities Behind Concerns (Detransition, Single-sex Spaces)

• [25:05]–[28:14]
  • Natalie affirms that rushed care is not the norm; most trans people must wait a long time for access.
  • Fears about “men in women’s bathrooms” are exaggerated and disconnected from reality.
  • Legal or gender certificates don’t govern bathroom access; lived appearance and social norms do.

Notable Quote:
"Generating a paranoia about men in women’s bathrooms...is this purely imaginative scenario..." – Natalie Wynn ([27:24])

On Power Dynamics and Online “Mobs”

• [29:26]–[30:32]
  • Natalie describes why some trans people wield online power fiercely—because it’s the only power they have, and many are insecure about identity, leading to defensive reactions.
  • She condemns abusive behavior but understands the underlying pain.

Prospects for Dialogue and Social Change

• [31:28]–[33:12]
  • Natalie expects that trans acceptance will come gradually, through increased societal habituation over the next two decades.
  • She is willing to have the conversation for progress, though notes it is draining to always be ‘the explainer.’

Notable Quote:
"I think that what it is going to take is people simply habituating to a world that includes trans people..." – Natalie Wynn ([31:36])

What Natalie Would Say to J.K. Rowling

• [35:00]
  • Natalie wishes Rowling would better empathize with why trans people are hurt, setting aside her own adversarial position for a moment.

Notable Quote:
"I just kind of hope she could try to see why so many trans people are angry and hurt by this..." – Natalie Wynn ([35:00])

3. Interview with Noah, a 17-Year-Old Trans Man

Noah’s Introduction and Story

• [38:23]–[41:33]
  • Noah describes realizing he was trans in adolescence, not childhood.
  • His journey began with consuming trans content online, especially documentaries and personal accounts on YouTube and Buzzfeed, not coercive or propagandistic material.

Exploring Gender and Medical Transition

• [41:33]–[51:54]
  • Noah started therapy for anxiety and gender issues, and found support from both mental health professionals and increasingly his parents.
  • Medical transition was slow and thoroughly vetted, involving safeguards and the input of many adults and medical experts.

On Concerns About Detransition and Regret

• [52:04]–[53:12]
  • Noah acknowledges the reality and seriousness of detransition, wanting transition only for those who benefit.
  • Stresses the importance of careful, individualized treatment.

Notable Quote:
"I want everyone who will benefit from it to do it, and everyone who won’t, to not." – Noah ([52:43])

On Parental Concerns and the Transition Process

• [48:39]–[50:44]
  • Noah’s parents feared regret, isolation, and loss of a life they envisioned for their child. It took extensive consultation to move forward safely.

Notable Quote:
"They did not really want me medically transitioning. … It took three or four or maybe even five medical professionals saying to them, we have been observing your child for a long time, and we believe this is the right step..." – Noah ([48:03])

Experience of Dysphoria – Beyond Gender Nonconformity

• [55:00]–[59:44]
  • Noah explains his experience far surpasses ordinary discomfort with femininity; it was existentially distressing.
  • Puberty, instead of being validating, increased his feelings of alienation.

Notable Quote:
"I really was looking forward to puberty because I thought it would be a gateway to feeling acceptance and finally feeling at home in my body. And then the opposite happened." – Noah ([57:47])

Impact of Medical Transition and the Danger of Delaying It

• [59:55]–[62:34]
  • Noah testifies that earlier access to top surgery very likely saved his life; the emotional pain of waiting was unbearable.
  • He expresses awareness that not all who feel distress as teens are trans; but for him, the need for transition was clear and profound.

Notable Quote:
"If I hadn’t...killed myself, I would have at least tried." – Noah ([60:03])

4. On Harry Potter, Rowling, and Hopes for the Future

Noah’s Relationship with Rowling and Harry Potter

• [62:50]–[66:21]
  • Noah was a passionate fan: "Let me share with you some of my accolades. ... I know what house I’m in. I know what wand I have. ... I brought my Harry Potter wand that I made out of hot glue and a chopstick to prove that I have stake in this conversation." ([62:50])
  • Rowling’s books meant a lot, providing comfort and inspiration.

Noah’s Nuanced Assessment of Rowling’s Statements

• [64:14]–[66:21]
  • Noah doesn’t see Rowling as overtly hateful, but thinks her statements (and the way they are received or weaponized) can reinforce damaging narratives.
  • He wants Rowling regarded as well-meaning, but is concerned about her framing and its effect.

Notable Quotes:
"A lot of what the issue has become is that a lot of what she has said is not bigotry in the way that bigotry is portrayed sometimes... But I think that there was bigotry veiled in what she was saying or that things she was saying were reminiscent of bigoted ideas." – Noah ([64:37])
"What I would like to see is just I want to look back on this in 10 years and be like, remember when everyone thought that J.K. Rowling was transphobic? And then there was that big dialogue..." – Noah ([66:40])

Hopes for Dialogue & Moving Forward

• Both Natalie and Noah hope for dialogue, mutual understanding, and a future where this moment is seen as a step toward greater trans acceptance.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|---------|-------------------| | 06:55 | Megan | "I try to stay away from certainty, to remember that at any given moment, I am only seeing a tiny fraction of the world." | | 13:08 | Natalie | "All this attention … led to a lot of transphobic hate." | | 16:13 | Natalie | "You want revenge—not just justice...a symbol of all the pain that we feel." | | 22:00 | Natalie | "Facts can be used to tell bigoted stories." | | 24:11 | Natalie | "If … you have a huge platform … you have to be responsible…" | | 27:24 | Natalie | "Generating a paranoia about men in women’s bathrooms...is this purely imaginative scenario..." | | 31:36 | Natalie | "What it is going to take is people simply habituating to a world that includes trans people..." | | 35:00 | Natalie | "I just...hope she could try to see why so many trans people are angry and hurt by this." | | 48:03 | Noah | "It took three or four...medical professionals saying...this is the right step..." | | 52:43 | Noah | "I want everyone who will benefit from it to do it, and everyone who won’t, to not." | | 57:47 | Noah | "I really was looking forward to puberty…then the opposite happened." | | 60:03 | Noah | "If I hadn’t...killed myself, I would have at least tried." | | 64:37 | Noah | "There was bigotry veiled in what she was saying or...reminiscent of bigoted ideas." | | 66:40 | Noah | "I want to look back...and be like, remember when everyone thought J.K. Rowling was transphobic? And then there was that big dialogue..." |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:25] — Megan’s Westboro Baptist background and approach to bigotry
• [08:54] — Opening of Natalie Wynn’s interview
• [13:06] — Blowback and online retaliation against Natalie
• [15:59] — On shame, pain, and scapegoating in trans communities
• [17:27] — Natalie’s distinction between direct and indirect bigotry
• [24:11] — Responsibility with platforms: why question-asking can be harmful
• [29:26] — Discussion of power and online conflicts
• [31:28] — Natalie’s long view on social change
• [35:00] — What Natalie would say to J.K. Rowling
• [38:23] — Start of Noah’s interview
• [41:33] — Noah’s experience with gender dysphoria and transition
• [48:03] — Parental involvement in Noah’s transition
• [52:04] — Thoughts on detransition and care standards
• [55:00] — Noah clarifies his experience vs. simply gender-nonconforming teens
• [59:55] — Emotional impact of delayed transition
• [62:50] — Noah’s relationship with Rowling and the Harry Potter books
• [66:21] — Noah’s outlook on future understanding of Rowling’s legacy

Episode Tone

The episode is thoughtful, reflective, and deeply personal. Megan brings humility and openness, Natalie offers insight with wry humor and candor, and Noah delivers earnest, nuanced commentary. The language is respectful, empathetic, and avoids sensationalism, focusing instead on careful explanation and lived reality. Both guests provide systemic critique without resorting to personal attacks.

Conclusion

This episode provides a powerful, empathetic examination of why trans people and allies may experience J.K. Rowling’s statements as harmful—even, or especially, when those statements are couched in terms of concern or questions. Through the lived experiences of Natalie and Noah, listeners are invited to move beyond headlines and internet battles to appreciate the deep complexities and emotional stakes. Dialogue and listening are presented as hard but necessary paths to social understanding and change.

Next Episode Preview:
Megan Phelps-Roper prepares to take the critics’ questions and concerns back to J.K. Rowling for a direct response.