The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling | 7. What If You're Wrong?

Summary

The Free Press Investigates: The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling

Episode 7: “What If You’re Wrong?”
Original Air Date: March 28, 2023
Host: Megan Phelps-Roper
Featured Guest: J.K. Rowling
Special Guest: Stacy Schiff (Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer, author of The Witches: Salem, 1692)

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Episode Overview

This episode serves as the reflective conclusion to the "Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" series, grappling with the central question: What if you’re wrong? Host Megan Phelps-Roper returns to Scotland for a final, open conversation with J.K. Rowling about the cost of standing by one's beliefs, the chasm between intention and public perception, and the complexities of discernment, doubt, and righteousness—especially in the polarized debates around gender, identity, and women’s rights. Insights into historical witch trials, literary parallels, and self-interrogation round out the episode.

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1. The Historical Frame: Witch Hunts Past and Present

Edinburgh’s “Witches' Well” and Salem Witch Trials

[01:11–06:52]

• The show opens at the Witches' Well in Edinburgh, commemorating those executed as witches in the winter of 1591.
• Tour guide explains brutal punishments; over 4,000 accused, most unnamed in records.
• Host Reflection: Witch trials, across time, create no-win situations for the accused. The accusation itself often assures condemnation.

Parallel to Social Media and Modern “Witch Hunts”

Stacy Schiff interview [04:05–10:41]

• Schiff draws parallels between oral culture of the past and today’s social media: “The ability to slander someone, to just really decimate someone's reputation very easily was something that was a constant between 1692 and the world in which we were then living.” [04:31]
• Salem’s Puritans seen not as ignorant mobs, but as highly literate, rule-bound communities, struggling sincerely (if tragically) for justice and safety.
• Schiff warns, “You can take on the characteristics of the thing that you abhor. You become the thing that you most fear.” [09:41]

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2. J.K. Rowling on Public Condemnation, Pain, and Motivation

On the “Abyss” Between Herself and Her Critics

[13:03–14:30]

• Rowling describes the vast gulf between her intentions and her critics’ perceptions:

  “I've been told, I wish for the genocide of trans people... that's where we become... sometimes you feel a little despair.” [13:11]

How It Feels to Be "Problematic"

[14:30–15:50]

• Rowling discusses surviving the backlash—evoking admired writers who stood by their beliefs:

  “I never wanted to be famous... If you're very invested in that... this is going to destroy you.” [14:30]

On the Dangers of the “Movement” and Women’s Rights

[19:39–22:32]

• Rowling makes her central case:

  “Women are the only group... being asked to embrace members of their oppressor class unquestioningly, with no caveat… This movement has argued... that a man may have had no surgery whatsoever, but if he feels himself to be a woman, the door of every woman's bathroom… should be open to him. I say no. ...We are in a cultural moment where that individual's hurt is prioritized over ... women...” [19:39]

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3. Key Critiques: Accusations of Bigotry and “Giving Fuel to the Right”

Contrapoints & The “Indirect Bigotry” Debate

[15:50–17:35, 17:35–18:37]

• Host relays Natalie Wynn’s (Contrapoints) distinction between direct and indirect bigotry.
• Rowling objects:

  “If you're saying indirect bigotry is standing up for women's rights, then you know what? Guilty as charged. ...Asking questions... is not being an indirect bigot.” [16:47]

• She acknowledges the complexity of motives regarding protecting children but insists her position is often mischaracterized.

Criticism: “Fueling the Right”

[24:20–27:31]

• Addressing the accusation that her comments empower the political right, Rowling retorts:

  “I think the left is making a tremendous mistake in espousing this kind of... witch-hunting behavior, because there will be people who will just feel, when they've been shamed and abused… ‘Where are they going to go?’ …I worry very deeply...” [24:25]

• Notes a profound shift—sees the left as increasingly judgmental and puritanical, and fears young men being pushed toward “alt-right” spaces.

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4. Medicalization, Youth, and Evidence

On Fantasy versus Real-World Risks

[27:31–29:25]

• Critics say Rowling’s books portray young people making life-changing decisions; she distinguishes between fantasy and real-world medical transition:

  “The point of fantasy is that we are allowed to explore in imagination... By contrast, we are dealing with the real world here. We're dealing with children, in my view, being persuaded that... is lifelong medicalization. That is real world harm.” [28:04]

Evidence and the Medical Debate

[29:25–32:14]

• Rowling asserts, “I haven’t yet found a study that hasn’t found that the majority of young people... experiencing gender dysphoria will grow out of it.” [29:59]
• Warns: “I genuinely think we are watching one of the worst medical scandals in a century... many people trying to raise red flags have been intimidated and silenced...” [29:59]
• She challenges proponents: “What if you are wrong? If I’m wrong, honestly, hallelujah. ...But if you are wrong, you have cheered on, you have created a climate...”

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5. On Language and Institutional Trust

Language Creep and Accurate Data

[35:21–37:44]

• Rowling worries about institutional shifts in language (“birthing people,” “cervix havers,” AP’s “is a woman”):

  “We are using language to make accurate definition of sex difference unspeakable... When I read news stories, ‘woman convicted of exposing her penis on the street’... There is now a journalistic convention... I see that as political language. ...I don't believe you can accurately analyze sexual violence or violence when committed by males [without accurate sexed language].” [36:00]

Losing Faith in Institutions

[34:05–35:21]

• Rowling discusses a loss of trust in publishing and educational institutions, seeing a dogmatic suppression of debate:

  “If we cannot look to those institutions to protect those very precious things, we are in trouble.” [35:20]

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6. Discernment, Doubt, and Self-Interrogation

"Are You Umbridge or Hermione?"

[41:50–45:28]

• Host explores discernment through a Harry Potter lens: are you the plucky Hermione or the authoritarian Umbridge?
• Rowling:

  “If you're having a lot of fun... getting a huge sense of self-satisfaction... you maybe want to stop and think...” [42:54] “None of this has given me pleasure... It has given me anxiety... Has made me at times feel vulnerable... I still don't regret standing up, but... It certainly hasn't given me pleasure on any level.” [43:12]

Megan’s List of Self-Reflection Questions

[45:32–48:36]

• Are you capable of real doubt about your beliefs?
• Can you articulate evidence that could change your view?
• Can you summarize your opponents’ views fairly?
• Are you attacking ideas or people?
• Would you destroy relationships over small disagreements?
• Would you use extraordinary means (force, violence, ostracizing) against opponents?

Rowling endorses these filters, reflecting, “That's key. …It's when we are most certain… that’s when we should most question ourselves.” [46:43]

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7. Grace, Humanity, and the Cost of Speaking Out

On Why Rowling Participated in This Interview

[54:01–54:58]

• “I've been willing to talk to you specifically because you wrote me that incredible letter, and because I think I've had 100 people at least say, explain yourself, explain yourself. But I felt that you and I could have a conversation that interested me.” [54:10]
• “Some will always hate me for what I've said. I accept that. I know I won't ever regret having stood up on this issue, ever. ...There are more important things in this world than being popular. ...It means it's more important to me to do the right thing. ” [54:45]

Closing Reflection

• Host: “Every crowd, every mob is made up of individuals. …It’s reaching the individuals… that will change things for the best if we’re to have any hope.” [53:38]

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Stacy Schiff (On social media and witch hunts):
  “The ability to slander someone, to just really decimate someone's reputation very easily was something that was a constant between 1692 and the world in which we were then living.” [04:31]

• J.K. Rowling (On standing up):
  “I never wanted to be famous... If you're very invested in that... this is going to destroy you.” [14:30]

• J.K. Rowling (On accusations):
  “If you're saying indirect bigotry is standing up for women's rights, then you know what? Guilty as charged.” [16:47]

• J.K. Rowling (On priorities):
  “Women are the only group... being asked to embrace members of their oppressor class unquestioningly, with no caveat.” [19:39]

• J.K. Rowling (On language):
  “We are using language to make accurate definition of sex difference unspeakable.” [36:00]

• J.K. Rowling (On regret):
  “I know I won’t ever regret having stood up on this issue, ever. You know, that’s the price you pay if you want to be universally and eternally beloved.” [54:45]

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Key Timestamps (HH:MM)

• 01:11–06:52: Witch trial history and parallels to the present with Stacy Schiff
• 13:03–15:50: Rowling on public perception and being “problematic”
• 16:47–17:27: Direct/indirect bigotry critique and Rowling’s rebuttal
• 19:39–22:32: Women’s rights and “oppressor class” argument
• 24:25–27:31: On accusations of fueling right-wing backlash
• 29:59–32:14: Evidence and medicalization of gender dysphoria in youth
• 35:21–37:44: Institutional language and loss of trust
• 41:50–45:28: Discernment via Harry Potter and self-questioning
• 45:32–48:36: Megan’s discernment questions and Rowling’s reflections
• 54:10–55:58: Rowling on her motives for participating and reflections on public response

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Conclusion

This closing episode serves as a meditation on moral certainty, the fallout of public stances, and the human capacity for error—even among the well-intentioned. Rowling and Phelps-Roper push listeners to examine their own convictions, the limits of empathy, and whether debate or dogma should guide public conversation on divisive issues. The program ends on a note of humility and resolve, asserting the importance of honest, doubt-filled dialogue over “witch hunting,” whatever the era.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[J.K. Rowling]

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[Interviewer/Host]

If you find yourself as I did in Edinburgh, Scotland, and you walk west from Lawn Market up a cobblestone street to Castle Hill.

[Tour Guide]

Gather round, witches. You get shoulders to the front.

[J.K. Rowling]

Hello. Hello. This is something.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sink there in the shadow of an ancient castle, on most days you'll find a tour guide wearing a black, pointy witch's hat.

[Tour Guide]

Now aren't we so lucky we live in a time where we're free to say the word witch, to even be witch, if we so wish. Others throughout the ages were not lucky. As you will find out.

[Interviewer/Host]

The tourists gather around her, forming a little half moon as they pull out their phones and cameras to take pictures of a small stone monument.

[Tour Guide]

Now here we've got the Witch's well. This is a little monument put up in order to honor all of those people who were executed as witches in the winter of 1591.

[Interviewer/Host]

The witches well commemorates an especially deadly series of witch hunts and is dedicated to those who were put to death, many in this very place centuries ago.

[Tour Guide]

They were tied to stakes, they were strangled, and then they were burnt as witches. Throughout Scotland, more than 4,000 people were accused of being witches, and more than half of them were executed. We don't know exact numbers because in some accounts it just says sundry witches, not even dignifying them with a name.

[Interviewer/Host]

These sorts of witch trials have occurred throughout human history and around the world, where someone, most often a woman, was accused by her community, by her neighbors, sometimes by her own husband or children, of being a witch, which left her with a terrible decision. She could confess and beg for mercy from the authorities, which in some cases spared her life, but in others only confirmed her guilt and led to her execution. Or she could stand firm through her interrogation and often torture and say to the crowd, I am not what you say I am. Though this was often seen as a prideful lack of repentance, which could also lead to her execution. Regardless of her choice, one feature of many of these witch hunts was that the very accusation itself was ultimately her condemnation.

[Stacy Schiff]

Hi, Megan.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Hi, Stacy.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thank you so much for speaking with me.

[Stacy Schiff]

I'm delighted to join you.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is Stacy Schiff, Pulitzer Prize winning biographer and author of the witches Salem 1692. Stacy, you published this book in 2016, and I just wonder, was there something specific that made you want to research and write this book about witch trials at this specific moment in time?

[Stacy Schiff]

There just seemed to me to be so many obvious and not so obvious parallels between that moment and basically what we do today on social media. And I think what I was most struck by was the sense that oral culture and social media were very similar. And the ability to slander someone, to just really decimate someone's reputation very easily was something that was a constant between 1692 and the world in which we were then living.

[Interviewer/Host]

When I started writing in America, the witch trials that occurred in Salem, Massachusetts are by far the most infamous. It was there that a zealous group of fundamentalists, the Puritans, turned on one another and in the span of months accused over 200 people of witchcraft. And as Stacy writes in her book, one of the forces behind this panic was an almost paranoid sense of constant danger.

[Stacy Schiff]

One can't overstate how important was the concept of watchfulness. You were meant to be always watchful, always vigilant, not only for the sake of your soul, but obviously in the Massachusetts incarnation, for the sake of your safety.

[Interviewer/Host]

The Puritans believed that evil was lurking all around them, constantly tempting them with sinfulness that could damn their souls, but also because they were living on the edge of this new colony in a land whose native people were hostile to their presence. They were also living constantly on guard against a real threat of physical danger.

[Stacy Schiff]

There was always a sense that you were under assault, or that you were likely to be infiltrated, or that the enemy was just beyond your means. So there is this constant sense of being on the watchtowers. And needless to say, when you're watching for something and you're watching vigilantly for something, you often see something.

[Interviewer/Host]

But Stacy's book makes clear just how different the people of Salem were from the image of the ignorant pitchfork wielding mob. In fact, they. They could be obsessive about reading and legal theory. And the witch trial judges themselves were well educated men, a number of them at Harvard.

[Stacy Schiff]

I think one of the oddities about New England in the 17th century and the question of witchcraft is that you're talking about one of the most literate communities in the history of the world, possibly the most literate community in the history of the world until that time. It was imperative that everyone prayed, and in order to pray, one had to read. So the literacy rate was tremendously high. Moreover, the people who were the witchcraft experts that year, which is largely to say the clergy, are all of them immensely erudite people who have read everything there is that was to be read on the subject of witchcraft. So it's a funny. It's a funny paradox in the sense that you have the members of the community who are invested most in this, what we would today call delusion. Those individuals are in fact, the best read, most highly educated members of the community.

[Interviewer/Host]

And what role did courts and laws and the concept of justice play in this society?

[Stacy Schiff]

Justice is central to Puritanism. The court records from the early years of New England are almost laughably comprehensive. And you see that even in the absence of lawyers, because there were no lawyers yet at this point in Massachusetts history, you have a very, very law loving, court loving society.

[Interviewer/Host]

And because they were so literate and so litigious, Stacy Schiff, in researching her book, was able to read their letters, their journals, their court records, and gain a deeper insight into how they understood themselves. In your best judgment, what do you think is the most gracious understanding of.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

What they thought they were up to.

[Interviewer/Host]

When they prosecuted these witches?

[Stacy Schiff]

I think that what we tend to forget is how strongly the belief in witchcraft really penetrates this community and how thoroughly, and I think profoundly, everyone involved believed that he was doing something that was good for the community. We have some indication that they were unclear about how to prosecute witchcraft. And they will at times, one justice in particular. They at times will appeal to the ministry to ask what kind of evidence they can rely upon in the courtroom and how a witchcraft diagnosis could and should be made. And obviously there were people here who must have trumped up charges. But for the most part, all of the judicial techniques which should have been followed were followed by.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's really fascinating again, because when we think about witch trials, looking back, we.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Assume, I mean, the idea that they.

[Interviewer/Host]

Would be strenuously adhering to the rules of evidence and things that they had.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

In place at the time, that they.

[Interviewer/Host]

Were really trying to do the right thing. In other words, that's not the image that we get.

[Stacy Schiff]

No, but you can see them grappling. You can see them grappling with their consciences, and you can see them grappling with the testimony. I mean, Arthur Miller actually makes a really interesting point when he's talking about the Crucible and he talks about something which is so true of that year in Salem which is that you, in the course of these kinds of prosecutions, you can take on the characteristics of the thing that you abhor. You become the thing that you most fear.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

That's really the scariest part of all this, right, Is that totally you could have people who are, again, very smart, very well educated, like, very dedicated to.

[Interviewer/Host]

The idea of justice, to the idea.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

That they want to do the right thing and to be searching themselves so deeply for what the right answer is and how they should behave. And to still come to this kind of horrifying conclusion where you have 19 people hanged. And it's a terrifying thing to realize about what it means to be human.

[Stacy Schiff]

After you have done all of your homework, asked all of the authorities for their help, and essentially scoured your soul. And you still can make that kind of colossal error. Yeah.

[J.K. Rowling]

I was so ill equipped for what happened to me. I was living in a state of real tension that I couldn't express to many people.

[Interviewer/Host]

So looking back, would you say that.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

The Christian parents were maybe part of a moral panic?

[J.K. Rowling]

Yeah, absolutely. It's a scary world out there. People can make mistakes, people can do bad things. In fact, show me the human being who hasn't.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

You're trashing someone, but you feel like you're crusading.

[J.K. Rowling]

You got your teeth knocked out.

[Tour Guide]

You fucking trashes.

[J.K. Rowling]

Get up. My Tad. I believe absolutely that there is something dangerous about this movement. Someone like her. She really is just truly at the heart, bigoted, hiding in this sheep's costume, pretending that she is an ally.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

You're trying to have your views challenged completely.

[J.K. Rowling]

I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, am I missing something?

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Just the opposite of everything that she wrote into those books.

[J.K. Rowling]

I have a lot of hope for her.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

There's a part of me that still cares what she thinks. You know.

[Interviewer/Host]

Chapter seven. What if you're wrong?

[J.K. Rowling]

Go for it. Yay.

[Stacy Schiff]

Love you.

[J.K. Rowling]

No, all good. Perfect.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

I'm sticking right here.

[J.K. Rowling]

Fantastic. This is just going to go behind you. Megan. Oh, sorry.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thank you.

[Stacy Schiff]

You're fine.

[Interviewer/Host]

Months after my first visit, my producers and I went back to Scotland, back to Rowling's home, back to her drawing room with her color coordinated books, to have one more conversation with her. For this series, I wanted to ask her some of the questions from her critics and to help me understand how she, someone who has devoted so much of her life's work to exploring human nature, grapples with the fact that she might be wrong.

[Stacy Schiff]

All right.

[J.K. Rowling]

Okay. Gathered here today. Yes. Record round two. Sounds good.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Okay. What do you Think is the crux of the difference between what you believe and what your critics say you believe.

[J.K. Rowling]

Oh my God. I mean, the crux. There's an abyss. I've been accused. I've been. I have to laugh because the hyperbole is so extreme. I've been told I wish for the genocide of trans people. I've been told, well, you want them to die, you don't want them to exist. And that, I think is where we become. It's not even infuriated. Sometimes you feel a little despair. You think, maybe we need the storm to break and for people to say, but wait a moment, we do need to ask questions. We've seen thousands of percent increase in young women trying to escape their physical bodies. Should we not be asking why that's happening?

[Interviewer/Host]

I think the idea is that you have become. For a lot of people, you know, the word is problematic that you might think of yourself as raising these valid concerns, but they will criticize either the way you've gone about it, or the timing of it, or the language you've used, and much more. But before we get into some specifics, I did just want to ask at this point, how does it feel that there is this gulf between how you see yourself and how many other people now see you?

[J.K. Rowling]

This will sound like an indirect answer, but I promise you it isn't. If I think about the people I most admire, actually even the writers I most admire, when it mattered, they stood up, they didn't sit at home and, you know, worry about their royalties or worry about their public image greatly. Not that I seek to be controversial. That's as embarrassing as seeking to be some sort of perfect. I never wanted to be famous. So if you're very invested in that, then of course this is going to destroy you. I mean, I don't say this in any self aggrandizing way, but I think it could have destroyed some people. If that's where you're very invested. What has happened to me in the last few years, and I think there's no hope that you will come out of it with your mental health intact or that you wouldn't be offering fulsome apologies. I've learned I've done better. I understand that, whether you mean it or not, but no, I have learned. I did my learning before I spoke. Everyone can do better. I don't set out to cause pain, but I see pain being caused and I think damage being caused to women and girls and I just can't sit here and not speak.

[Interviewer/Host]

One of your critics is a trans woman named Natalie Wynn who goes by the name contrapoints on YouTube. And she made a long video essay critiquing your views on trans issues. And in it, she goes through how she understands bigotry, which she breaks down into two categories, direct bigotry and indirect bigotry. Direct bigotry is the sort of thing that my family does. Being openly contemptuous and using slurs and demonizing people, marginalizing people openly. And indirect bigotry is things like people are just asking questions, they're just concerned, they're engaging in debate. Activists have gone too far. Political correctness cancel culture. In other words, it's the idea that there are bad actors who can hide behind virtues or less extreme rhetoric, but who are still undermining people's rights.

[J.K. Rowling]

I see this constantly, and that the most frequent example of that is they're pretending to be concerned about children. It's not about the children. They really hate trans people. Now, if you're saying that indirect bigotry is asking questions where you believe significant harm is done, if you're saying indirect bigotry is standing up for women's rights, then you know what? Guilty is charged. I think it is a very bad faith argument to say that people who are asking questions are being indirect bigots, because, you know, that itself, in my view, is a very bad faith position.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Do you think that some people do use those kinds of like. I guess I'm thinking here of like, actual people that most people would recognize as bigot completely.

[J.K. Rowling]

Pretty much everyone in the world, bar literal psychopaths and clear terrible predators, are concerned about harm to children. Okay, so that's a very common human trait. It's a human trait to want to protect the vulnerable. And children are very vulnerable. The trouble is, you see, one may use concern about children to justify other actions. You know, QAnon felt that children were being trafficked and raped. One may be concerned about children and be correct. People around Jimmy Savile, the UK's most famous predator, believed children were being harmed. But his celebrity and his ability to raise money for charity was such that nobody wanted to look into that. So I'm not sure it's as simple as saying people are using it. Some people may genuinely believe children being harmed and also genuinely not want anyone to be trans. That is not my position.

[Interviewer/Host]

You have said that you respect trans people. You said that you would march with them, that you think that transition is right for some people. But you also say that there's a real difference between biological women and trans women. And A meaningful distinction between the two in their experiences. And I think some of your critics point to that and say you're essentially making trans women second class women. You know, like you're almost women. That despite all of their efforts to live in the world as women, as what feels right and authentic to them, you are essentially saying, I'll treat you as a woman. You are an honorary woman. But this distinction that you are emphasizing, the biological distinction that you see as being so important, it can feel hurtful to them, like they are, you know, almost a thing, but not quite, like something is being held back. Can you understand the pain that that could cause?

[J.K. Rowling]

Yes, is the short answer. Yes, I can understand that hurt. The thing is, women are the only group, to my knowledge, that are being asked to embrace members of their oppressor class unquestioningly, with no caveat. Now, on an individual basis, and I think many people new to this argument would see it on that level, because many people of my generation particularly think that we're talking about old school transsexuals, people who've been through full sex reassignment because of profound gender dysphoria. And I feel 100% compassion for such people. And I would absolutely respect their pronouns, always have, always will, and would want, as I say them, to have comfortable, easy lives. This movement, though, is pressing for something different, very different. This movement has argued, continues to argue that a man may have had no surgery whatsoever, but if he feels himself to be a woman, the door of every woman's bathroom changing room rape center should be open to him. I say no. I. I'm afraid I say no. And we are in a cultural moment where that individual's hurt is being prioritized over the hurt of women whose rights and boundaries are under sustained assault. And I think it's interesting to ask why the pain of one group is being prioritized over the pain of other groups.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Yeah, maybe a simpler way to ask it is that is there a way in your mind to respect both pains, even though at some point, obviously there's going to be a moment where action or decision has to be made.

[J.K. Rowling]

I do believe that there is a way forward in which women and girls retain their existing rights and trans people are properly protected? There is a way, absolutely a way to respect both points. But I think we're currently, unfortunately, at a place where that is very difficult to achieve. I believe feminists have tried very hard to have this discussion. How do we ensure everyone's rights and safety? Where does fairness lie, for example, in issues like Sport would be a very obvious one that's getting a lot of publicity at the moment. Feminists are asking for certain spaces. Rape shelters would be a very obvious example to remain female only or to have separate provision for both groups. Because. Because I don't know a single feminist who doesn't acknowledge that trans people also, of course, are victims of sexual violence. But at the moment, there seems to be a very black and white view on the other side of the argument. It's everything or nothing when it comes.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

To the bathroom question. We've heard from a lot of people that essentially that the wrists just don't seem very high to them. Many of them can understand why, you know, males and females shouldn't be housed in the same prison cells. But when it comes to bathrooms, like there already aren't guards at the door and like nobody's checking before we go in. And essentially a bad actor would come in, regardless of whatever our conventions are.

[J.K. Rowling]

I agree quite strongly on that. There is a social taboo. There has been until very recently, historically there has been a social taboo. So that if my husband decided that he wanted to use the ladies bathroom, the women inside would feel confident in challenging his right to be there. And I think in my view, most decent men watching a man walking into the ladies bathroom might well challenge him too. That is now being eroded. So we have statistics on this. The Sunday Times issued a freedom of information request from the government. 88% of sexual assaults happen in unisexual spaces. We have had multiple.

[Interviewer/Host]

The Sunday Times data rolling is referencing specifically addressed reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in changing rooms at sports centers and swimming pools and compared the rates of incidents that occurred in single sex versus unisex changing rooms.

[J.K. Rowling]

We have had multiple instances in this country and in America, because I went and looked, because I was thinking, well, does this happen? And it happens? Voyeurism, sexual assault. The men particularly arguing that this isn't a risk, alarm me candidly. Are they naive? Do they not know what their fellow men do?

[Interviewer/Host]

There are a lot of critics who say you and your comments are giving fuel to the right.

[J.K. Rowling]

Well, my answer would be, I think you're giving fuel to the right. This is why many left wing feminists in particular are sitting with their head in their hands. The right has wanted for years and years and years, not all of the right, but certainly the further right and the religious right have wanted to castigate the lesbian and gay and bisexual movement as is inherently degenerate and part of the left's broader degeneracy when you defend the placing of rapists in cells with women, you are handing the right a perfect opportunity to say, you see, we told you the moral degeneracy that would result if you say homosexual relationships are okay. And I think for many leftists, for many feminists, we are despairing of the fact that people are, in our view, colluding with a deeply misogynist movement which is benefiting, politically speaking, the far right. And I worry very deeply that as the left becomes increasingly puritanical and authoritarian and judgmental, we are pushing swathes of people towards not just the right, it's pushing them to the outright. That's what scares me, that particularly young men, when they're being told everything in the world is their fault and they have no right to a voice and they are everything that is wrong with society. It is unfortunately a human reaction to go to the place where you will be embraced. And if the only place where you can make a joke or be accepted is a place that is full of poisonous ideas, then you're likely to go there, particularly when you're young. So I think that the left is making a tremendous mistake in espousing this kind of, in my view, quasi religious, incredibly sort of witch hunting behavior, because there will be people who will just feel, when they've been shamed and abused and they feel it was unfair, where are they going to go? You know, that worries me very deeply. In my lifetime we've seen such a shift on the left. And I still would define myself as of the left, but you know, I was born in the 60s when transgression really was the preserve of the left. You know, when challenging authority and making the dark joke and when breaking societal norms was very much the preserve of the left. I've lived to see the left become incredibly puritanical and rigid and watching the alt right, and this is a new phenomenon, watching the alt right is not the conservative right with whom I disagree on many, many things. But I'm just saying we're seeing the growth of something very much facilitated by the Internet that alarms and disturbs me. And it worries me that the left are absolutely playing into that demographic's hands.

[Interviewer/Host]

You wrote a book, many books, where young children have a lot of autonomy and make very adult decisions. And some of them come with really great risks. And that's like sneaking off into a dungeon or running away to fight the most powerful wizard who has ever existed. And some of your critics wonder if there's something contradictory in saying that young people are not old enough to know who they are to make this decision about whether to medically transition.

[J.K. Rowling]

Those are fantasy books. And the point of fantasy is that we are allowed to explore in imagination things that frighten us, challenge us. We're allowed to escape into a world that's scary. But then we can come back, we can close the book, we can think about what we've read, we can think about what it means to make irreversible decisions. By contrast, we are dealing with the real world here. We're dealing with children, in my view, being persuaded that a solution for all distress is lifelong medicalization. That is real world harm. There's no closing the book and walking away. There's no playing with this, experimenting with this and not suffering harm, in my view. Now, people will say perhaps, but you've already said that for some people this will be the answer. And I will say yes. For persistent gender dysphoria, I believe. I certainly hope that for adults who have found no other way to resolve their gender dysphoria, transition may be the answer. I want to see those people protected. I want their rights protected. I wish them lives full of joy and fulfillment. But when we're talking about children, I think that is a very different question.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, you've said that you've been immersing yourself in a lot of reading memoirs and philosophy and academic literature all around this subject. And I know that one thing that's made this conversation about minors medically transitioning so contentious is that because it's quite new, there aren't a lot of authoritative studies. And so with the studies that are out there, the assertion is that people on all sides are cherry picking to fit their arguments. What evidence are you seeing that makes you think that you are right to be worried?

[J.K. Rowling]

I haven't yet found a study that hasn't found that the majority of young people, children and adolescents experiencing gender dysphoria will grow out of it. Now, I haven't found a single study that contradicts that and I have gone looking. The majority of children will, if allowed to go through adolescence, many of them will grow up to not all, but many will grow up to be gay and their gender dysphoria will resolve. Why then, if that's the evidence, are we immediately putting children onto an affirmative path? Can we follow the science? There's activism and all activism isn't equal. I genuinely think that we are watching one of the worst medical scandals in a century. And I believe that those who should have known better, and I'm talking here, not God knows about trans people, Gender dysphoric people, distressed young people. I'm certainly not talking about them. I am talking about medics and those who have cheered this on, unquestioningly creating a climate in which many people trying to raise red flags have been intimidated and silenced. And I would ask proponents of gender identity ideology, who are so militant, who are so determined on no debate, I would ask them, what if you are wrong? If I'm wrong, honestly, hallelujah. If I'm wrong, great. People aren't being harmed. But if you are wrong, you have cheered on, you have created a climate, quite a threatening climate, in which whistleblowers and young people themselves are being intimidated out of raising concerns. I think it was in 2018, Professor Carl Hennigan, who is at the Oxford center for Evidence Based Medicine, and he spoke up publicly and he said, we are watching an unregulated live experiment on children. He was instantly condemned as a transphobe by, I think, the Oxford University's LGBT society.

[Interviewer/Host]

So when you say that people aren't being harmed if you're wrong, you mean physically, because your critics say that you are harming people with your words and with the ideas that you are promoting.

[J.K. Rowling]

Well, I actually, I received an email right after I spoke out in which a left wing man I know emailed me and he said a trans man had been killed in Germany. And he said to me, your rhetoric contributes to an environment in which police are less likely to investigate that crime. Now join the dots for me. What I had said at that point is there used to be a word for people who menstruate. Is he genuinely arguing that by saying women menstruate, police investigating murder will say, well, we'd better wrap up the investigation. These hyperbolic accusations are thrown at anyone who challenges this ideology. Your words will cause people to kill themselves. Your words will stop police investigation. Your words will cause men to be violent trans women. Blaming women for the violence of men is a hallmark of something that is not normally seen as progressive, that is misogyny writ large.

[Interviewer/Host]

To go back to your concern about the left feeding a backlash that might help the far right, there's been a real and rapid loss of public trust in institutions of all kinds over the of past few years. And it sounds like this experience you're having is causing you yourself to have doubts about the trustworthiness of some of our institutions in this moment.

[J.K. Rowling]

Completely. And I think that this is, I mean, we've seen this play out in the last decade, this undermining of experts. You know, the experts can't be trusted, the media can't be trusted, Governments can't be trusted. And I would be lying if I didn't say that I have lost faith in certain institutions. I have lost a degree of faith in what is obviously the industry I know best, the publishing industry. I've been shocked by the positions that publishing has taken. I am pleased and proud to say that my publisher has taken. My editor, in fact, has taken a robust position on freedom of speech. And I was. I was relieved that he took that position, not for my sake, but it was a declaration on freedom of speech that I think publishing, if publishers stand for nothing else, they should stand for plurality of views. And the other institutions that I have definitely lost faith in are educational institutions who I think have taken a very dogmatic position on this and are shutting down debate, freedom of thought and freedom of expression. And I if we cannot look to those institutions to protect those very precious things, we are in trouble. And I am afraid I think we are currently in trouble.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, one of the concerns you voiced is around language and institutions using phrases like birthing people or cervix havers or people who menstruate. And some of your critics just don't see a problem with this. They see it as just making language more inclusive. So, for instance, in the world of journalism, the Associated Press released a new style guide explaining that when referring to transgender people, phrases like is a woman are more to the point than identifies as a woman. Can you make the case to the skeptic? Why is this an issue for you?

[J.K. Rowling]

That, from the Associated Press is hugely powerful. They've edged from identifies as a woman. So a man identifies as a woman. And I think we all understand what that means into is a woman. And that's precisely the creep that I'm talking about. We are using language to make accurate definition of sex difference unspeakable. When I read news stories, woman convicted of exposing her penis on the street. Now I'm laughing, but it's not actually that funny. I hear myself saying the words, and that seems so absurd to me. But there is now a journalistic convention that no matter the crime, woman convicted of raping small boy. These are real news stories. I see that as political language. I see that as ideological. I don't believe it to be factual. There's a body of feminists who would say, these are not our crimes. These are not women's crimes. And I would say something else. I don't believe you can accurately analyze sexual violence or violence when committed by males. And we know that 98 to 99% of sexual violence is committed by men. Women are form 88% of victims of sexual violence. How can we record accurate data? How can we analyze this phenomenon without being able to accurately talk about who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

[Interviewer/Host]

So what you're saying is that by.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Changing the language there to focus, especially around sex crimes, to focus on gender rather than sex, you are obscuring an important fact, which is that biology actually is implicated there.

[J.K. Rowling]

Exactly that.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

One of the things that your critics say often is some version of, I wish you would listen. Why isn't she listening to us?

[J.K. Rowling]

Because they think that nobody could possibly disagree with them if they heard what they were saying. And I truly believe that the notion that I have listened and I have read and I have learned and I've looked at the theory and I've looked at personal accounts and still disagree is simply anathema.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

So what you're saying is they think they want you to listen when really they want you to agree.

[J.K. Rowling]

I'm afraid that is exactly what I think. Yeah.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

And then the other extremely common question that comes up, and it comes off almost like a plea, is just, why? Why are you doing this? Why can't you just let people be who they are and support them the way that you do for these outsider characters in your book? If one of those people is listening right now, how would you talk to them? What would you say to them? Can you speak to them?

[J.K. Rowling]

I would say to them, you as a human being, the self that you are, I have the utmost respect for you. I want you protected. I want you safe. I would treat you with respect always. And I would say I'm worried. I'm worried that we're. I'm worried that you yourself may have got caught up in something that may ultimately harm you. But I'm asking some questions because I think some vulnerable groups are being harmed, and that includes the gay community. That includes vulnerable women, and it includes vulnerable youth. Now, if you identify as trans, if that is an answer for you, then I'm with you 100%. But we are seeing mounting evidence that this is not the answer for everyone. And that we may be living through a cultural moment that we will look back on not with pride, but with puzzlement that we let it.

[Interviewer/Host]

We'll be right back.

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[Megan Phelps-Roper]

I'm really interested in.

[Interviewer/Host]

The question of discernment.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

I think of this scene from one of your books. It was Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix where Hermione, the hero, and Professor Umbridge, who is clearly in the wrong, have this showdown in class.

[Interviewer/Host]

Hermione says in a moment of defiance.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

That she disagrees with something in her textbook and Umbridge berates her. Like, who are you to disagree with this expert who wrote this textbook and punishes her. Now, to anyone reading this, it is.

[Interviewer/Host]

So frustrating and unjust. But I venture to say that no one thinks they are the Umbridge.

[J.K. Rowling]

No one ever thinks that. No one ever thinks they're Umbrage.

[Interviewer/Host]

And some people see you as the Umbridge. You have these younger critics online and they see Hermione as standing up to an older person with power and they see themselves as standing up to you.

[J.K. Rowling]

Yeah, and I understand because they've told me very explicitly why they have that interpretation.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

How do you know if you are a Hermione or an Umbrage?

[J.K. Rowling]

Well, if you're having a lot of fun doing it and getting a huge sense of self satisfaction out of it, then I do believe you maybe want to stop and think, am I getting a huge ego rush out of this? That would be a good question to ask yourself. You know, is this giving me pleasure? Because I can say from my heart, none of this has given me pleasure. It has given me anxiety. It has made me at Times feel vulnerable. So although I don't regret anything, I've had concerns for my family's safety. Some of the threats have not been too amusing to me. There has been fallout in my life, inevitably. I still don't regret standing up, but I don't. It certainly hasn't given me pleasure on any level. You know, one of the key moments for me. So you say, you talk about righteousness. There was an incident in 2019, I.

[Interviewer/Host]

Believe in which here Rowling mentioned the incident that we spoke about in chapter four, where in a nearby Scottish town, a 10 year old girl was sexually assaulted by an 18 year old trans woman in a public bathroom.

[J.K. Rowling]

Some of the discourse I saw after that incident really took me aback because one of the first things I saw was the TERFs love it when something like this happens. Now, what thought process has led you to believe that the TERFs, this demonized evil group, I mean, they just hate trans people. They want them all dead. We all know this. That's who they are. What leads you to believe that we want 10 year old children escape rape by a hair's whisker? How has your black and white thinking evolved to the point where you think that feminists like me actively are gleeful when women are raped or attacked? That's great. We can use this to bash trans women with. And I've seen that discourse and I think if you're thinking is that it's not just irrational, that is such a bad faith position, at no point do you stop and say to yourself, there may be some nuance here. Is this all moving pieces on a chessboard for you? Is it all a game? Does real world hurt and harm not count at all?

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

There's one other question that I had about discernment.

[Interviewer/Host]

So how do you know if you're.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Fighting for something that is truly righteous.

[Interviewer/Host]

Or just something that appears to be righteous? How do you know that the courage to call out an injustice isn't actually just a call to join an unjust mob?

[J.K. Rowling]

Yeah.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

So coming from Westboro, where I believed so strongly that I was doing the right thing, and then to leave and come to believe that it was so destructive and harmful, I had this moment in time and it lasted for many months where I was like, how can I ever trust my own mind again? Because I was so certain. And so I was trying to, like, looking for some kind of solid footing, like, what leg do I have to stand on? How can I trust my mind? How do I not make the same mistake again and again, go going forward? And so I basically came up with this list of questions that kind of grew over time, and a few of them you've alluded to already. So these are the questions that I ask myself to see, like, am I starting to go down a bad path? So the first question is, are you capable of entertaining real doubt about your beliefs or are you operating from a position of certainty?

[J.K. Rowling]

Yeah, and I think that that's key. So I think it's when we are most certain, when we're getting that rush of adrenaline that says, God, I'm a good person, that's when we should most question ourselves. That's when you need to stop and ask yourself a question.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

And the second point is, can you articulate the evidence that you would need to see in order to change your position or is your perspective unfalsifiable?

[J.K. Rowling]

We've discussed this already and I think that's such a good question because I asked myself that question on this issue. What would I need to see? And I could articulate what I would need to see to move me from my position, my thought out position.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Can you articulate your opponent's perspective in a way that they recognize, or are you straw manning?

[J.K. Rowling]

And I think that's excellent. And I genuinely believe I could articulate my opponent's position because I've read their books and I think people need to read these things. They need to understand what is being argued.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Fourth one was, are you attacking ideas or attacking the people who hold them?

[J.K. Rowling]

Always the ideas.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Are you willing to cut off close relationships with people who disagree with you, particularly over relatively small points of contention?

[J.K. Rowling]

No, I'm not. A difference of belief is nothing to me, but I can imagine myself no longer wishing to have a relationship with a person who behaved in certain ways towards me or towards others, because I do strongly believe it's watch what people are doing, not what they're saying. And so certain behaviors would probably be a deal breaker for me. And that would include demonizing others for small transgressions. That would be a revelation to me that that person wasn't who I thought they were probably.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

And then the last one was, are you willing to use extraordinary means against people who disagree with you? And by that I mean things like forcing people out of their jobs or homes, you know, violence or threats of violence, or things like what my family and I did, celebrating misfortune and tragedy.

[J.K. Rowling]

I don't know why, but that question's actually made me quite emotional that you say that to me because I sit opposite you and I like you so much. And you're such a humane and reasonable person. And to hear you describing those behaviors is I can really understand why you had your long, dark night of the soul. One thing that you said to me earlier in our discussion really stuck with me. You said to me that not long before you left, you said to someone, an interviewer, I'm all in. And you told me, I believed that I had questioned myself and I was fine with everything. But you said you hadn't gone deep enough. Trust and obey. Right. You'd never actually taken apart the most fundamental three words of your belief system. You'd never challenge those. Can you talk about that? Because that really interests me.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

So I grew up in a family of lawyers, right? So my mom is one of 13, and I think 11 of the 13 went to law school. They were very, very smart, very analytical, very logical people, which I think surprised a lot of people to learn, because it's easy to assume that these are just kind of rednecks with backwards beliefs or something, and specifically with unexamined beliefs. These are just their personal prejudices and they're living them out in the world. When in fact, my grandfather was a well known, award winning civil rights attorney. He was somebody who had reason to believe that he was on the right side of things, on a lot of things. And we were constantly looking around at what other people believed and other understandings of the Bible and then going back to the word, right, going back to the King James version of the Bible and trying to show and memorizing chapter and verse why everybody else was wrong, all the evidence. So it was a constant process of examination, asking these questions. But I realized before I left that there were two fundamental premises of our ideology that I never questioned, I never truly questioned the idea that the Bible was the literal, infallible word of God and that Westboro's understanding of it was the right one. Because again, it was all laid out there for me. And as much as many questions as I asked from those two premises, essentially everything else basically fell into place. There were a few small contradictions that outsiders were able to find on Twitter. And I do wonder, like, if not for some internal contradiction, relatively small points, if that had never revealed themselves to me, they'd never revealed themselves to me, then I would have just accepted, I would never have thought to question those two basic priorities premises. That actually is. It's one of the reasons that I came up with this list because if I asked myself all these hard questions, like what I imagined, like I really thought I was digging in deep, you know, it was really terrifying to realize, like, even when you're really trying, even when it's an earnest attempt and all of your intellect. And again, I'm surrounded by people who are all incredibly intelligent and well intentioned. Like, I know those people. We would do anything for each other. So it's just the idea that such people could still get to a place that was so wrong and so harmful and so destructive, it helps me, I guess, now feel a lot of understanding and grace for people even when they're doing harmful things. So it's that question about are you attacking ideas or the people who hold them? And that is very. It's huge to me because of the way that people were able to understand that even though I was doing horrible things, I was trying to do the right thing and that was something that they could tap into. And so this is, for me, even though it can be kind of scary to see what people are capable of even when they're trying to do the right thing, it's also a hopeful thing because that desire to do good is something that, that you can tap into, which is why the desire to shut down debate and conversation is so alarming to me because, like, that is the only thing that can ultimately change hearts and minds. And it's, I think, the only real tool we have outside of actual force and violence to make change.

[J.K. Rowling]

Yeah, every crowd, every mob is made up of individuals. And it's reaching the individuals and not allowing this to become mobile that will change things for the best if we're to have any hope. And your story, obviously is one of redemption. And I love everything that you say about the good in your family. I truly do.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Okay, very last question. Why have you been willing to talk to me? What do you hope this does?

[J.K. Rowling]

I've been willing to talk to you specifically because you wrote me that incredible letter and because I think I've had 100 people at least say, explain yourself, explain yourself. But I felt that you and I could have a conversation that interested me. And in terms of what I hope this does, I suppose I hope people enjoy the podcast. Honestly, I don't mean this in any arrogant way and I don't mean this in any self pitying way, but I feel that I've said what I've said and maybe when the mist clears, some people will understand better. Some will always hate me for what I've said. I accept that. I know I won't ever regret having stood up on this issue, ever. You know, that's the price you pay if you want to be universally and eternally beloved, then you must curate your image in a way that I'm simply not prepared to do. I'm not in the business of doing that. And I'm not taking a long bet here. I'm not thinking, oh, I think this cultural moment will pass and therefore I will be vindicated. I don't know what the future holds. I only know that I would have betrayed myself, and I passionately believe I would have betrayed a lot of women and girls if I had not stood up on this issue. There are more important things in this world than being popular. And that doesn't mean it's more important to me to be right. It means it's more important to me to do the right thing. Joe.

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

Rolling. Thank you so much for speaking with me.

[J.K. Rowling]

Thank you. We good?

[Megan Phelps-Roper]

I mean, you got anything else to say?

[Interviewer/Host]

You've been listening to the witch trials of J.K. rowling. This series is dedicated to everyone out there who's trying to have difficult conversations, trying to listen with empathy and to speak with honesty and in good faith, even when it's hard. So much has happened since we started our reporting, and we'll be back in a month or so with a bit of an epilogue, so stay tuned. But in the meantime, if this show has meant something to you, if it has moved you or provoked you or inspired you, or maybe caused you to question some of your assumptions, please share it with your community. Share it with your friends or family. Start a podcast club. Discuss it, debate it. Join the public conversation, as messy as it can be sometimes. And if you think we've missed something or have recommendations for our team, we're always happy to hear from you. You can send us an [e-mail] or send me a message on Twitter Egan Phelps. And if you would, please leave us a review on on Apple or Spotify to help others discover the show. And now for some thank yous. The witch trials of J.K. rowling was produced by Andy Mills, Matthew Bull and Megan Phelps Roper, with production and editing support from Candace Mattel Khan. The series is brought to you by the Free Press. The show was mixed by Matthew Bol. Sound design by Andy Mills and Matthew Bull, editorial advising by Bari Weiss. Additional editing support from Emily Yoffe. Original music composed and performed by Peter Leilish, Kobi Beinert, John Ivins and Matthew Bowell. The wonderful readings from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in Episode were performed by actor Crispin Letts. With special permission from J.K. rowling. Our beautiful artwork was created by Eliana Blaser Gould, with art direction by Susie Weiss, Fact checking by Natalie Ballard and me. Special thanks to Stephanie Roper, Kate Fjelland, Rebecca Salt, Noah Phelps, Roper, Laura Floyd, Lucy Biggers, Jonathan Hunt, Isaac Grafstein, Alex Burns, Camille Foster, Aaron Bohl, Katie Herzog, Jessie Singel, Joy Neal, Kat Rosenfield, Lacey Green, Noah's dad Jay, Maya Sulkin, Buck Angel, Corinna Khan, Marcy Bowers and Jonathan Haidt. And to many patient and supportive members of my family, including Joyce Marlin, Tor and Solvi, Lynn Fjelland, Josh Phelps Roper, Nancy Taves and Tom Kennett. And of course, Our thanks to J.K. rowling for inviting us into her home. Last but not least, our most profound thanks goes to everyone who shared their stories with us and to our friends who listened and gave us encouragement and feedback along the way. Goodbye for now, but we'll see you all soon. In the epilogue.

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