$135K Bitcoin Next? Ethereum Rally Heats Up!

Summary

Deep Dive into Bitcoin and Ethereum's Rally Amidst Treasury Strategies and Institutional Adoption

In the August 12, 2025 episode of "The Wolf Of All Streets", host Scott Melker engages in an in-depth conversation with guest Josh Frank from The Tie, alongside team members Andrew, Tillman, and David. The discussion revolves around bullish price targets for Bitcoin and Ethereum, the influence of treasury companies on the crypto market, the surge in Ethereum's transaction volume, and the increasing institutional adoption of cryptocurrencies.

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Bitcoin’s Bullish Outlook

The episode opens with an optimistic outlook on Bitcoin, with price targets set at $135,000. Andrew highlights that options traders are betting on Bitcoin reaching this milestone, alongside Ethereum possibly climbing to $4,800. He states:

“Bitcoin is down 37 bips today” ([07:55])

Despite this minor dip, Tillman expresses strong confidence in Bitcoin’s trajectory:

“I continue to be impressed with the buying floor of Bitcoin. The volatility is shrinking rapidly” ([03:13])

Josh Frank elaborates on the factors driving this optimism, emphasizing the role of treasury strategies:

“The treasury trade is what's creating so much buying demand” ([02:04])

He suggests that the market anticipates Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell will maintain current interest rates, rendering CPI data less impactful on the crypto markets.

Ethereum's Surge and Transaction Volume

Ethereum is also experiencing a notable rally, with targets set at $4,800. Josh Frank posits that Ethereum could reach this price point imminently:

“ETH could hit that today” ([02:54])

The conversation shifts to Ethereum's increased transaction volume, attributed to lower transaction fees post-Merge and recent network upgrades. Andrew observes:

“It’s like pennies. It costs almost nothing right now” ([20:51])

Contrasting past high fees during the NFT boom, Josh Frank highlights the surge in active addresses and transaction volumes:

“Average transaction fee has stayed pretty consistently around 80 or so cents” ([21:47])

This increase in on-chain activity suggests robust network usage without the prohibitive costs previously seen.

Altcoins and Institutional Influences

The discussion then moves to the performance of altcoins. Tillman expresses a more bullish stance on Bitcoin compared to altcoins:

“I think the alt season is going to pale in comparison to the Bitcoin pump” ([05:44])

However, Josh Frank acknowledges that treasury strategies could lead to temporary explosive gains in certain altcoins:

“These are not sustainable like Bitcoin’s fundamentals” ([06:27])

Despite the potential for short-term "face melting rips," Bitcoin's strong fundamentals ensure its continued dominance in the market.

Treasury Companies and Stablecoins

Significant attention is given to treasury companies actively investing in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Andrew references an announcement of a treasury company purchasing $762.5 million worth of Bitcoin:

“762 million is a rounding error for Bitcoin” ([07:31])

Josh Frank counters that while such large purchases are impactful, they might not immediately move the market due to substantial daily volumes handled by exchanges like Coinbase:

“It’s more than the daily volume on Coinbase” ([08:30])

The conversation also touches on the ubiquity of stablecoins in financial transactions. Andrew notes:

“Stable coins are going to be everywhere, everything” ([30:00])

Indicating that stablecoins will become integral to various financial platforms and transactions.

Institutional Adoption and User Base Growth

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on institutional adoption and the influence of younger generations in driving crypto’s future. Josh Frank cites a Gemini report stating that:

“51% of Gen Z holds crypto” ([18:04])

This underscores the massive future wealth transfer to younger demographics highly engaged with cryptocurrencies.

Tillman adds that financial institutions like J.P. Morgan and Morgan Stanley are integrating crypto offerings to attract and retain a vast number of new users:

“They added like 12 million people to their company” ([19:09])

Strategic partnerships and product launches aimed at expanding crypto’s reach within traditional banking highlight the growing institutional interest.

Emergence of New Layer 1 Chains

The introduction of new Layer 1 (L1) chains by companies like Stripe and Circle is another key topic. Josh Frank discusses the potential impact of these purpose-built L1s on the existing crypto ecosystem:

“How do these chains...retain applications and retain users” ([28:09])

He speculates that the emergence of new L1s could lead to a more interoperable future where multiple chains coexist, each serving specific purposes and niches within the crypto landscape.

Cryptocurrency ETFs and Future Prospects

The conversation turns to the role of cryptocurrency ETFs, highlighting significant inflows into both Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs. Andrew mentions:

“US spot ether ETFs hit a billion daily inflow for the first time yesterday” ([24:08])

David anticipates substantial inflows as the end of Q3 approaches, driven by traditional financial cycles and institutional allocations:

“Money managers have to catch up at some point” ([31:04])

Josh Frank echoes this sentiment, predicting considerable inflows over the next 40 to 50 days as money managers seek to allocate funds to these outperforming assets.

401k Crypto Legislation and Long-Term Integration

Tillman introduces the potential legislative changes regarding crypto in 401k plans, emphasizing the transformative impact this could have on crypto adoption and investment:

“401k crypto legislation...if it opens up that opportunity to put real estate and crypto assets in your 401k” ([36:46])

This prospective legislation is seen as a pivotal development that could integrate crypto assets into traditional retirement planning, further cementing crypto’s role in mainstream finance.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the episode underscores a bullish outlook on Bitcoin and Ethereum driven by institutional demand, treasury strategies, and growing adoption among younger generations. The emergence of new Layer 1 chains and significant inflows into crypto ETFs signal a mature and evolving crypto market poised for substantial growth. The potential inclusion of crypto in 401k plans marks a significant milestone in mainstream financial integration, positioning cryptocurrencies as key components of future investment portfolios.

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Notable Quotes:

• Josh Frank ([02:04]): “The treasury trade is what's creating so much buying demand.”
• Tillman ([03:13]): “I continue to be impressed with the buying floor of Bitcoin. The volatility is shrinking rapidly.”
• Andrew ([20:51]): “It’s like pennies. It costs almost nothing right now.”
• Josh Frank ([21:47]): “Average transaction fee has stayed pretty consistently around 80 or so cents.”
• Josh Frank ([28:09]): “How do these chains...retain applications and retain users.”
• Josh Frank ([18:04]): “51% of Gen Z holds crypto.”

This comprehensive discussion paints a picture of a dynamic and rapidly evolving crypto market, influenced by institutional strategies, technological advancements, and shifting demographics. As Bitcoin and Ethereum continue to ascend, the integration of cryptocurrencies into traditional financial systems and retirement plans promises to further solidify their position in the global economy.

Transcript

[Andrew]

Options traders are betting on bitcoin heading to $135,000 and Ethereum heating up heading to $4,800American dollars, aka finally getting to its previous all time high. It may be the depths of summer and August, but we still got some exciting price action and a shit ton of news seemingly every single day. We're gonna unpack it all of course with Andrew and Tillman, but way more exciting than those two old men. Is Josh Frank here from the tie. Let's get into it now.

[Josh Frank]

Let's go.

[Andrew]

Good morning everybody and happy Tuesday. We are back of course with the team from Arch Public, but as I mentioned more excitingly, Josh from Frank here from the Tide. Josh, it feels like every single time we've had you booked is randomly a day I'm not here, it's been a while.

[Josh Frank]

And then you joined late on this and so I thought that this would be another one of those. I thought maybe you felt bad that I wasn't joining but you didn't like me enough to be part of the episodes that I was on and so you just asked you should invite me when I'm not.

[Andrew]

Actually pure coincidence is because your hair is so much better than all of ours. And so it's like do we really want to be on screen with all that amazing hair while we got two bald guys and one guy who clearly just woke up and didn't come over.

[Josh Frank]

Right?

[Andrew]

I mean, you know, whatever man. Let's talk about things people actually care about. Otherwise they're going to leave and go somewhere else. I don't know, crypto banter or something. Who else is on right now? There's a lot of, a lot of people they can go choose. Here we go. Bitcoin traders I 135k ether 4.8k in crosshairs as CPI data looms. I think the CPI data came in and it was kind of of a nothing burger in line. I mean do we really care about this stuff anymore? Like is this, is this Josh? Is this really like what we're a fear grips market ahead of us cpi. That was this morning.

[Josh Frank]

Fear.

[Andrew]

I mean does any of this really matter for crypto right now?

[Josh Frank]

Well, I think, I mean, I think, I think the answer is yes. Obviously the, you know, you have the, the treasury trade which is what's creating so much buying demand. And I think also the market just kind of thinks Powell is not going to do anything with rates. It doesn't matter what happens. I think that's probably more of why CPI is a nothing burger. Right now if I would have to guess.

[Andrew]

So we should just be paying attention to Powell and then he's going to do something. It's not going to matter anyways because last time he cut rates, interest rates went up. So maybe it just matters what the treasury is doing. I mean, what do you think of these targets though? I mean these are pretty short term targets. 135k for Bitcoin and 4.8 for ETH. It seems like ETH's really got a more likely shot at that number than bitcoin does right now.

[Josh Frank]

I mean ETH could hit that today. Yeah, I mean it's, it's like, I'm not suggesting it's going to, but it could.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean you heard it here first.

[Josh Frank]

10%.

[Andrew]

You heard it here first. Ethereum to 4800 today according to Josh Frank from the tie clip it by.

[Josh Frank]

The end of this episode. Yeah, by the end of this episode.

[Andrew]

All right, Tillman, Andrew, where are we at? 135k bitcoin 4800 ETH. Is that on the radar right now?

[Tillman]

I think it is, yeah. I, I'm continued to be impressed with the, the buying floor of bitcoin. The volatility is, is shrinking rapidly in my opinion. And I think the up is the only, only direction that we can go if treasury companies keep buying. I saw David announced, I guess this morning they're buying a billion dollars today of bitcoin. You know, that sounds bullish to me. I think the, the rising tide floats all ships narrative is, is the strongest one that I've been focused on, which is the money supply, the interest rates, the macro scene. Bitcoin's going to do incredibly well regardless. But if you take, you know, if you, if you believe that interest rates are going to drop and a lot of new cash is going to be printed in the next two, three years, I think bitcoin could really melt some faces. I actually look, I've been in the market, crypto market for a very long time and this is one of the few times where I'm as bullish on bitcoin in terms of multipliers in this bull run as I am on some of the altcoins. Like the altcoins don't look that.

[Josh Frank]

Freeze.

[Andrew]

The Illuminati Altcoin. Illuminati got you. The bitcoin Maxis just froze.

[Tillman]

Sniped me.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you're saying something bullish, I think about altcoins and literally like I think Max.

[Tillman]

No, I was actually saying the opposite. I think It, I think, I think bitcoin over a hundred thousand sounded crazy two years ago or sounded outlandish. And I think Bitcoin over 100,000 now sounds like a floor. Like, I don't talk to anybody that doesn't believe bitcoin isn't going to 250 to 350. Most people believe that. I talk to, you know, 500 and above. Well, I mean, think about that. That that's a, that's a 4 or 5x. If you kind of take the middle ground there, that, that's, that's something that you can't ignore, especially with the critical mass that bitcoin has and the like. I, I heard this a year ago from Dave Krueger. He told me this point in time is the point in time where bitcoin's been de, risked the most with the most upside still to be had. And I kind of believing that right now. I think the alt season is going to pale in comparison to the bitcoin pump.

[Josh Frank]

I think long term you're right, 100%. And I say that with somebody who has most of my assets in bitcoin and not in alts. But I do think with this treasury strategy, as some of these more exotic alts get treasury companies behind them, if some of them are actually able to raise real amounts of capital and create buying pressure on the token and effectively lever up, some of these alts are going to absolutely face melting rip. I mean they might. And then they might get completely liquidated. Right. And it could come crashing all back down. But I think you will see a couple of face melting rips on some of these alts. Again, I don't think they're sustainable. I don't think there's any fundamental reason, whereas I think there's a fundamental reason behind bitcoin. I'm not saying anything fundamental.

[Tillman]

I think you're spot on in there. I still have some plays like that, but in my mind on those plays I'm already going, how many bitcoin can I buy with my exit? That's literally what I'm thinking. You see what I'm saying?

[Josh Frank]

It's also, you know, the trade is, you know, you talk to the, the funds that are participating in a lot of these treasury strategies, right. The biggest thing they're looking for is how fast they can get out. Right. How long the lockup is. Right. And so, you know, I think there's, you know, there's the short term trade and then there's the long term hold. Right, right. And agreed. And you Know, look, at some point, at some point, you have to think the treasury thing stops, right? Like this. This. We'll see. We'll see. But I mean, at some point, somebody starts to over lever or multiple people start to over lever and some of these things crash, right? And there's so many of them coming to market and they start trading below M Nav. Right. Like, there's a. There's a world in which that's going to, you know, start to happen and the puck stops. I don't know how soon that is, though. Maybe that's not for another six months. Right. But I think it's just thinking through, what are you trading in versus what you're investing in?

[Andrew]

I mean, did you see this news? Bailey says, ever since getting into bitcoin, I've had this dream of Smash buying a billion of bitcoin in a single bid. Tomorrow, that dream comes true. That's today, by the way. Got to start dreaming bigger. Then everyone was like, you have a billion bucks. He was like, no, 762.5 million. But whatever.

[Josh Frank]

Right there.

[Andrew]

Which, by the way, you know, that's generous.

[Josh Frank]

So we're all clear. Bitcoin is down 37 bips today.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But listen, I think that's awesome. I'm assuming this is on behalf of Nakamoto, right? Obviously. Which is the bitcoin treasury company, which is why I brought it up. But I think it's pretty notable. I don't know if they've bought yet, But I think 762 million is a rounding error for bitcoin. Now, with the amount of institutional. Institutional interest and ETF buying that we have, I mean, it didn't even move the market when there was an announcement that someone was going to buy a billion. I mean, we've got seller buy 2 billion in a week.

[Josh Frank]

It's not inconsequent. I mean, Coinbase has only traded 520 million today worth of Bitcoin USD. So it's more than the daily volume on Coinbase. So, I mean, it's not. It's a real amount of money.

[Andrew]

Well, I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. I'm just saying that announcements of a billion or if it's done.

[Josh Frank]

Oh. Are not moving the market.

[Andrew]

Doesn't have to move the market anymore, you know, because you have a billion in inflows in an ETF on any given day when you weren't even thinking about it. So. No, but.

[Josh Frank]

But it's going to move eth. And it's going to Move other assets. Right. And I think that's why, that's why I think you'll see some, some short term alt performance and on select alts, I think it's going to be very different than past markets. Right. Where you know, a rising tide lifted all boats in altcoin markets. I think this is very different. If somebody raises $500 million to buy a random token, that token is going to do well.

[Tillman]

Well, I think what to your point, it's whether you get adopted by Wall street and whether you see institutions coming behind that adoption and if you see that follow through with ETH and XRP and some of these other large crypto projects, I think you're right. I think you will see some pretty good gains to be had.

[Andrew]

I saw another treasury company, now I'm trying to remember which one, but that was announced yesterday. That was a completely random token.

[Josh Frank]

There are so many more than you think there are.

[David]

I would encourage you guys and anybody listening to this podcast to find a way to get on CCM's email list. So CCM is doing, the small investment bank is doing all of these deals. Yesterday I saw a, you know, an email from them that announced the ton ton. So it was somewhere in the range of almost $600 million of a ton. Treasury company.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we need a bonk. Treasury company.

[David]

Yeah, Bonk ton. So you know, if you want to stay on the cutting edge of this stuff and where it's coming from, where it's going, how much money is actually being raised. It's extraordinary how much money is actually being raised. Right.

[Josh Frank]

Also keep in mind a lot of the time the assets are being deposited in kind. It's not US Dollars.

[Andrew]

That's that, that's right. That's just the founders of bonk. It says from the founders, 25 million. Just sending it to another entity so that they can sell without saying that they're selling in a tax efficient manner.

[Josh Frank]

Well, and they want to, and they want to sell at some multiple to M Nav. Right. They want to, I mean they want to trade at some multiple of their holdings. Right. So if you have one bonk, you want to sell 1.2 bonk. Right. So it's not, it just, it's important to note that it's obviously it's not all cash. But look, even if they're depositing assets in kind, the idea is they can borrow against those assets to buy more bonk. And they're probably trying to maximize the amount of bonk each shareholder has per share.

[David]

And, and not to besmirch CCM's name. I don't believe they were involved in the bonk transaction.

[Josh Frank]

So it might do well, it might.

[Andrew]

You heard it here. First CCM launches.

[Josh Frank]

I heard it, I heard it wasn't, I heard it was Goldman that actually did it.

[David]

J.P. morgan. But, but you know, in all seriousness, they, they are heavily, heavily, heavily involved in the treasury space. And you know, there's an email or two every day with a new announcement associated with the treasury company, whether it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoins of some sort. It is, it is at a fever pitch right now. Where it goes, we'll find out. Back to your thoughts on, you know, price predictions. Just a reminder that if we go to 135, that's what about an 11 or 12% move? Right. So the paradigm associated with what looks like a big number has completely shifted. You know, these aren't percentage moves. You know, a 10 to 12% move in Bitcoin three to four years ago was sort of par for the course in any given month. Now something like that, you know, would ring a lot of bells. But at the same time, as a percentage, it's just not what it used to be. That paradigm shift happened in traditional markets about, you know, five, seven years ago when we had nasdaq, you know, two levels that people hoped that the Dow would get to back in 2000. Right. So, you know, there are just big adjustments for the way that people think about markets. Once you get to these price levels on a percentage basis, people aren't used to it. So there's, there's shifts and changes, especially on the retail end. Institutions are very comfortable with it. The inflows associated with. I'm not at all surprised that the inflows in Ethereum have picked up the way that they have with the ETFs. It's simply rotation and allocation associated with institutions and some retail putting money into something other than a spot Bitcoin etf. Oh, there's, there's other access to crypto and it's doing well. And Larry Fink won't shut up about it and neither will the administration. Yeah, I should probably be allocated to some extent to something else other than Bitcoin. Okay, let's shift and move some money over there.

[Josh Frank]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't discount how much that is retail, by the way.

[David]

Right.

[Josh Frank]

It's, I think it's majority retail and not institutional. And if it's institutional, it's not always long term. So I think it's just important to have that, that caveat, right?

[David]

Yeah. And, and that, that, that retail demand is coming from. Again, the narratives, right, the narrative.

[Josh Frank]

Yeah, no, 100%. I'm not saying it's not real demand, but I think a lot of the demand, just like when the, when the, you know, when the, when the Bitcoin ETFs launched, the majority of that volume wasn't institutional. Everyone's like, BlackRock's buying. No, retail investors are buying through their.

[Andrew]

Fidelity account or their BlackRock buys a billion. No, come on, man.

[David]

Yeah, BlackRock on behalf of you. Yeah, BlackRock's clients are buying. Now to be fair, BlackRock's clients are largely institutional, but that institutional demand is coming from the retail clients of those institutions pushing it through to blackrock.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's a bunch of people buying IBIT in their E Trade account. But still, I mean, it's a relevant number. It's just a nonsensical to pretend that Larry Fink is, as David Bailey put it, smash, buying a billion dollars in Bitcoin on a daily basis for himself or for BlackRock's balance sheet, which is what that implies.

[Tillman]

Well, that's actually a really interesting thing to think about because you know, you look at American Express's deal with Coinbase, you look at JP Morgan's deal with Coinbase, you look at these, these larger legacy financial institutions and how they're entering into this crypto market. And you know, I've, it's all about users to me and I think that we have become as crypto, the crypto market, some of the most attractive users to, to, to try to solicit to or try to get on your platform. And there' sections of traditional finance and crypto that are going on every day that are meaningful, that have never happened before. I mean like there's a company called VivoPower that got on my radar. Have you guys seen their headlines recently and what they've been doing? Publicly traded, they're on the NASDAQ, VVPR is their symbol. They announced like three weeks ago that they were doing $100 million XRP, Treasury Strategy. They've been, you know, releases that. Yeah, exactly. How could you? I mean, I don't know why that wasn't on your alerts, but yeah, but yeah, they've been announcing some pretty forward facing, some bleeding edge type, you know, initiatives. Well, they announced today that they've got a strategic partnership now with crypto.com and if you read the article, it's talking literally about how they're going after crypto.com's 125 million users. Like that's what the whole deal is really predicated on is, is that those users are so valuable that this partnership is valuable to VivoPower. Why? Well, because now they're starting to offer VVPR on crypto.com. i don't know if they don't go into whether it's tokenized or how they're doing it, but they're gonna. This cross section of traditional NASDAQ traded shares are now coming to crypto.com so this notion of, of, you know, user demand being the most attractive or one of the most attractive things in this market, I don't, I don't disagree with. In fact, I think it's probably bigger than we know. And I think that if you look at Coinbase and the position they're in, they're going to be launching IPOs. If you had a, if you had a market to launch an IPO on, what better market than this one? What better example do we have than the ICO craze that we saw where specific exchanges got exclusive offerings that they got to announce and they said, we got this coin and we've, we're launching it and we've got this. And bam. The liquidity showed up the day later. I mean, it was just like an inflow that you couldn't, you couldn't imagine. Same thing happened with Trump Coin. Think about how much money was sloshing around in a 24 hour period based upon a tweet that, that's. I think, I think the traditional finance folks are looking at this user base as the best user base to go after. And I think crypto.com and I think Coinbase and I think Kraken, I think all these exchanges are in a really unique position where regulation is going to allow them to, to really create brackish water immediately by mixing the two pretty quickly.

[Josh Frank]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's worth, I think it's worth noting. Right. You know, look, the younger generations holds crypto. Like I was just trying to find some research on it. Gemini pushed out a report in January that said 51% of Gen Z holds crypto. Whereas, you know, older generations, you know, those numbers are much, are much lower. You know, the older generation is going to be around for a lot less time. The younger generation is, and you're going to have a massive wealth transfer from the older generation to the younger generation. And so I think that's obviously a huge part of it. Right? And these large financial institutions like American Express, I would guess the majority of their revenue is coming from folks that are a bit older, obviously want to get in front of a younger demographic as well. Right. And that younger demographic demands crypto. Right? I mean, 51% of Gen Z holding crypto is gigantic. I would guess that nowhere near 51% of Gen Z owns the S and P, which is crazy. Like, I would, I would guess that number is nowhere near if I, I mean, just total guess, but, but we guess it would be nowhere near that number.

[David]

Well, it's the same, it's the, it's the stat that I gave about a month ago on this show. Coinbase has 120 plus million customers. JP Morgan has 86 million customers. That's really all you need to know. There's a reason why JP Morgan has done two deals with Coinbase now, one associated with wallets and the other one associated with building their quote, unquote, whatever it is, internal coin on base. Like, JP Morgan is doing two things. One, they want access to Coinbase customers at large. And then two, they're doing everything they can to find a way to keep their J.P. morgan customers. And so if they offer these types of products and services as an adjunct, then the JP Morgan customer says, okay, well, you know, I'll keep my, my, my account here at J.P. morgan and most of my assets at J.P. morgan. It's going to be extremely interesting over the next 12 to, let's call it 36 months. What happens with, you know, again, that cross section of tradfine crypto as crypto grows and to Josh's point about Gen Z, you know, that particular group of individuals, they're set to inherit an enormous amount of wealth. Enormous amount of wealth. And so that, that's, that's everyday meetings at the JP Morgans and Bank of America's are about that dynamic and how do we stay relevant, how do we make that happen? And you know, the numbers, the numbers are extraordinary. They really are.

[Andrew]

I know you don't have the most time today, so I want to ask you about something that you're probably uniquely educated on to answer ETH Transaction volume climbs on price rally Cheaper defi costs. So I've been using Ethereum of late. It's like pennies. It costs almost nothing right now. And last time we were at these levels, it was like when people were minning NFTs and it was costing like $95 to send an Ethereum transaction. I mean, I think we're a hair's breadth away from the highest transaction volume on ETH ever. And it's still really cheap. So, I mean, people are actually using this network and it's not broken. Is that all because of the merge? Is that all because of whatever upgrades they've made?

[Josh Frank]

Because it seems you're assuming that I have a good technical answer to that question. I mean, I also.

[Andrew]

You see the data on what's happening.

[Josh Frank]

I have the data. I can share my screen.

[Andrew]

Yeah, go ahead. I still use the TIE dashboard every day.

[Josh Frank]

Thank you. Okay, so I don't have long term data up here, but yeah, you can see there's a quite considerable spike in active addresses, transactions, dex volume and most metrics around eth. And to your point, average transaction fee has stayed pretty consistently around 80 or so cents, which is, which is quite interesting. So, Yeah, I mean, 80 bucks, it.

[Andrew]

Was literally 80 bucks.

[Josh Frank]

The amount of times I spent $200 to do something on chain in 2021 for something that is now worth less than $200 is unbelievable. So. No, I agree with you. I mean, I think the challenge with this all is obviously there's a lot of buying because of treasury companies, but the same problems we spoke about with ETH fundamentals a month ago and two months ago before all this treasury buying are still real. There is not a lot of ETH that is needed to transact on chain because it is incredibly inexpensive. And despite the fact that transactions are going up to your point, it is still inexpensive to interact and transact on chain. Right. So I think, you know, we in crypto, we sometimes forget that fundamentals matter when price starts going up.

[Andrew]

They matter so much when it starts going down though. Oh yeah, so much, so much. But I just don't even understand like technically how that works. But I guess we could figure that out another time. And why would you go to a layer two right now if it's 80 cents to do things on ETH? I guess to make it 8 cents. But is there a reason you would like jump to a layer two right now?

[Josh Frank]

No, I mean, that's a real question. I mean, that's. You could see it in the performance of L2s. I mean, L2s are down 95 plus percent, pretty much every single one of them across the board. Right. I mean, the question is either you need to have some fundamental reason that these assets are moving. There needs to be a narrative behind why these assets are moving, or you need to have a DAT company that's just smashing the buy button and levering up to buy more of the asset. Right. One of those three things need to be true. And if Multiple of those. Those things are true assets. Probably going to perform very well.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I guess I just wonder like treasury buying on Coinbase or OTC or something is not really reflected heavily in on chain data. Right. So that's not what's accounting for all time highs in transactions.

[Josh Frank]

No, no, I mean it's, it's not. I mean I'm just looking right now that number one duh. Right now a lot of the big. Yeah, I mean the number one transactor on ETH right now is an MEV bot. I'm just trying to see if there's anything specific that's interesting.

[Andrew]

A scamming people's transactions. God, it's unbelievable. Meanwhile though, speaking of buying, I mean US spot ether ETFs hit a billion daily inflow for the, the first time yesterday. A billion dollars in ETH bought in Ethereum ETFs. I mean this thing might be catching on. Well that's like a big day for Bitcoin ETFs. And even in the peak we're at.

[David]

The edge of selling may and go away. So people are coming back, people are re engaging and conversations are increasing across wealth management. You know kids are just be careful.

[Josh Frank]

When you're, when your grandma calls you and asks you about crypto, don't forget to hit the sell button.

[Andrew]

Don't forget that is top. The deadest top of Ethereum ever. I went to get a haircut and my barber asked me about urethra. No lie. It was the day that it topped and he was like urethra. And I was like go to the doctor. I don't know if that's a STD or what you're talking about, but there's nothing called urethra. I'm not aware but it was the dead top. He's like have you bought the erythrium?

[Josh Frank]

So I got, I got a, I got it. I got a message from my, my co founder a few days ago. I'm trying to find it. He goes my, my. I don't know if I can find it exactly. But he effectively said my science teacher just sent me a message about, you know, from high school about, about Chain Link. The last time he messaged me was like 11-17-2021 or something.

[Andrew]

So you know there will be signs, right? Yeah, yeah. I, I don't personally think we're there yet but I'm just.

[Josh Frank]

It doesn't. It look, I mean for my, for the sake of. My bags don't sell but for the sake of the sake of, you know, if you're thinking about saving up to buy a home, if you've got to pay for your kids education, whatever it is, don't forget it. It doesn't hurt to sell some. You're not, you're not going to regret selling a little bit of your, your holdings on the way up.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not just a crypto.

[Josh Frank]

No, no, it's not just a crypto thing.

[David]

It's not just, you know, all markets for all intents and purposes are at all time highs.

[Josh Frank]

Yeah, no, look, when things get very euphoric, it doesn't hurt to sell a little bit.

[Andrew]

Well, it's always really quick to. And I think Josh has to go in like one minute or maybe one minute ago. But is there anything like super on your radar right now that's exciting you before I do let you go?

[Josh Frank]

Super on my radar right now? No, I mean I think there's an interesting conversation and dialogue about all these new L1s that are launching and what that means to the market. I mean we saw the stripe L1. I don't know if they announced it or maybe Fortune or some. Somebody wrote about it and then Circle just announced an L1 this morning. And so what does that mean? Right. And you ask about, you know, eth. Well, what does that mean? Who are the winners in the market where. But keep in mind, I think somebody made the point on Twitter earlier, stealing what they said. Hyper Liquid is a 40 plus billion dollar TVL asset. It's its own L1 and it just does a single thing. And so purpose built L1s potentially are the future and stripe having its own L1. But what does that mean for existing players in this space is an interesting question. And I think the other point of that question is I think one of the things that has been a struggle for L1s and L2s in the past.

[David]

Is.

[Josh Frank]

People chase incentives and people are incentivized to build on a certain L1. But then another L1 might come along and offer all sorts of incentives to go and move and build on that L1, then they might have even better incentives to go and build their own L1. And so the question is, how do these chains, if they want to become the Internet of something or they want to own attention and own users, how do they actually retain those applications and retain those users? And do we have a fully or do we just have a fully interoperable future which everything works together? Which I think will be the case. But the question is, does that mean things are worth Something. And how do you define whether or not something is worse things? So that's that. To leave you with final thoughts. That could be a. In multiple hour long conversation.

[Andrew]

It is.

[Josh Frank]

I'll leave you with this, guys.

[Andrew]

Give Josh a follow. Thank you very much, Josh. Always. It was a pleasure to actually be here when you were present once again.

[Josh Frank]

Well, thank you for having me on, everyone.

[Andrew]

All right, man, talk to you. Stay on with these guys.

[David]

By the way, per his point, it doesn't hurt to have a massive, massive user base already, right? So thus coin.

[Andrew]

Well, that's why. Yeah, I mean, stripe. But it's curious because the whole Tom Lee pitch, which I like, I love everything. Tom Lee's doing great once again for my bags. Terrific. But like, his premise was such a basic bitch like comment that anyone on Wall street might understand, but anyone in crypto would laugh at, which was that stable coins are big. Go Ethereum. And I'm like, stable coins are going to be everywhere, everything. And now Stripe launching their own. That's bad for Ethereum if your pitch is Ethereum stablecoins circle launching their own L1. Really bad for Ethereum if you think the Circle is going to move all their transactions onto their own layer one. That is not the narrative like these stable coins. I mean, if that was the narrative, then people wouldn't be using Tether on Tron.

[David]

Again. There's, there's a lot of, you know, you can go back and use analogies of when there were explosions in certain portions of business slash society. Whether it was the, you know, the, the explosion in automobile production from the 1920s through the 1950s, 50s, all of that eventually consolidated and, and all explosions since then. The computer explosion, the Internet explosion, all those things happened faster, you know, given where society was and evolved to, you know, every time. Same thing with, with stable coins and crypto. Eventually we'll get that, you know, explosion. We're in explosion mode right now, Stripes doing it. Everybody's doing something right with crypto. But at some point it will settle out and they'll be winners and losers and we'll see who those are. But no different than the dot com boom and bust. They're, you know, some of the three to five biggest companies in the world were born and bred through that moment and still exists.

[Tillman]

Well, and the technology, and the technology that was taken down and made illegal, like Napster and some of the original like, you know, cloud streaming type services became adopted by Apple and Apple music is a byproduct of that. So is YouTube Music. So all of these now larger companies that existed that said, you know, this technology is too, too impactful for us to pass up and guess what? They bought or, and or built their own and they implemented, implemented it very nicely within their ecosystem and their user base and they got reap a lot more of the benefit than, than otherwise. So I, I think it's a, it's a natural evolution of the markets and I think the treasury side of things is going to be where we see it the quickest. And I you. I think there's going to be, I mean I think David Bailey said something a tweet yesterday that he was Nakamoto is like the 9th or 8th most attractive stock to short at this point. So you know, there's going to be a point where there's a lot of money and there's a lot of leverage and that equals a lot of volatility. And you're going to see a lot of people go bust and you're going to see the narrative shift to the people who in those times can gobble up the weak gazelle and become the victor. And I, you know, if you look at like for example, Michael Saylor, what would be stronger for him to do than to buy up a failing treasury company and acquire all that Bitcoin? Bitcoin. Like I think that's going to be. It will happen. I, I almost can guarantee it by the way.

[Josh Frank]

Just.

[Andrew]

I just want to add to Andrew the fact that I didn't even see Circle and Stripe announcements. That's how like much we don't get stablecoin news anymore. But Visa's crypto Chief aims to leverage 2 trillion stable coin era. Meanwhile, Western Union mulls its own stable Coin as payment rivalry. The question is, is it with Western Union launch now one does the Western Union use Circle's new chain because they do a partnership with Circle or is this on every chain? Who knows. But it's very hard to predict what this future is going to look like. But we're going to have stable coins.

[David]

All I can see on, on those web pages that you pulled up is the amount of bills that Grayscale is paying at Bloomberg. Given their ad presence on every single page.

[Andrew]

I wonder if it's just they serve me because they know I only open the crypto content for some.

[David]

So no, the movement is going to continue and it's and again, it has everything to do with users, everything to do with users and the ability to not only leverage your user base but at the same time gather users and that's going to be the fight because I was told by, I've got great relationships at Morgan Stanley and a buddy of mine who's been there now for 10 years after working at UBS for 20, he said, Listen, the reason why we did the E Trade deal is because it, it, you know, quadrupled our user base. Morgan Stanley in terms of, you know, high net worth and ultra high net worth. Folks on the retail side had like three and a half million users in the United States. Three and a half million. That's nothing. That's literally nothing. So why did they do the E Trade deal even though there's not meaningful crossover? It's because they added like 12 million people to their, to the, to their company. So the same thing is going to happen, whether it's stable coins, whether it's treasury companies, whether it's mergers and acquisitions in the exchange world with banks and tradfi. It's going to be a whirlwind over the next 24 months, the likes of which this industry has never seen. We, we haven't even mentioned on this podcast, you know, the coming IPOs that are going to happen. Yeah, bullish IPO. Peter Thiel backed company Gemini's IPO that's coming. All this is going to happen in the fall. It's man it. We're also on the cusp again, selling May and go away. We're on the cusp of the end of August going into September. So you're at the end of Q3. So what happens at the end of Q3? We're going to see enormous inflows into both bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs over the next 40 to 50 days. Why? Because money managers have to catch up at some point. Their clients are going to ask him, why don't I have, why am I not allocated in some way, shape or form to these wildly outperforming products? What are you guys doing? And so they're gonna stuff a bunch of money into both Bitcoin and Ethereum etf. So when they have those meetings there's like, oh no, no, no, no, no problem. We, we have, we have exposure to those. You're, you're good, you're exposed. Right. So there are common traditional financial wavelengths that happen throughout the year that you can just count on. Right. So there's, you know, is there a 5, 10% dip out there for the crypto market? Certainly there always is. Who knows? Is there a 20 dip? No, no chance. No, no chance. Right now. The, the floor is so high on this stuff. Right now, given the, the constant allocation that's happening and the pickup in activity heading in the next 45 days, given where we're, you know, you know, for all intents and purposes, Bitcoin is a traditional financial sort of tool at this point. Ethereum's, you know, right around the corner to be in that, whether you like that or not, as a, you know, cyberpunk. So what is what it is, right? It is what.

[Tillman]

Something that we also haven't talked about, which I think would be the only thing we'd be Talking about maybe two years ago is this 401k crypto legislation. I mean you talk about a rising tide guys, you, I mean 401k money, they're never selling, they're not sellers.

[Josh Frank]

Yeah.

[Tillman]

They're just buyers and they keep buying until they die. That is an unbelievable piece of legislation that I don't, I don't know if it will pass what it looks like, but if you're allowed, if it opens up that opportunity to put real estate and crypto assets in your 401k. You talk about, you know, integration, adoption rates, talking about, you know, that rising tide effect from retail. It's, you know, the, the integration that we're on the cusp of. To your point, Andrew, I don't. Even if there was a big dip, I don't think you're gonna have to wait four years is the point. You know, this four year cycle thing that we've been on for, I, I don't think that exists anymore. Time will tell. We're gonna find out. But you know, just like we've seen massive difference since the having this cycle versus the previous cycles. I, I just think that the game has changed. Gets it at adoption inside of Wall street level and that money doesn't dry up. That is the head wall, that, that, that is the dam. That's where all the energy is made crazy.

[Andrew]

Do I want to talk about a big difference? You're talking about a big difference, Andrew. I'm gonna, I'm gonna transition. I see you want to say something, but.

[David]

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm ready to, I'm ready to jump on that unbelievable word.

[Andrew]

That'S been absolutely show stopping results with our studio arbitrage album [e-mail].

[David]

Listen, this is something. Over the last two weeks we've used with our, our clients and the free users that are looking to upgrade to our concierge program. This is an undeniable number. Right. So you look at sui, which has been a great asset to hold over the last year. If you would have bought 100k worth last year at this time and just held it, you would have done really well. You'd have done 3X. Your, your money, you know, a little more than 3X. If you would have used our arbitrage product, you would have done significantly more than 3x. You would have done a 9x. Right? That's the, that's the conversation stopper right there. Like, if you don't think that automation is meaningful and works and is a plus plus plus associated with what you're trying to get accomplished in the crypto space, I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, I literally don't know what else to tell you. And here's the thing too. So even if you're just a bitcoin focused person, how can you. And I'll harken back to Jeff park, who talks about volatility farming all the time. How can you farm volatility and turn that into additional bitcoin, Right? How much more bitcoin can you buy over the course of the year when this.

[Tillman]

Well, it's what Josh said, it's the trade versus the hold, right?

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tillman]

And there's the volatility in crypto market is often referred to as a feature by the, the biggest names, Michael Saylor being the, the top. But nobody really understands what that means. And what it means is, is that as price goes up and down, if you have a, a piece of software that allows you to move a dynamic range in your favor and capitalize on that volatility, that those movements mean something to you because you have the lines in the water to capitalize on those movements. And so what's interesting about our software is how flexible it is. We've got customers that say, you know what, To Andrew's point, I don't want to trade, I don't want to have any SUI exposure. I don't want the. I don't care. I'm a bitcoin maximalist and by God, I want to use the volatility of Bitcoin to do this same type of thing. Well, bitcoin's not as volatile as sui, so those, those types of movements are harder for bitcoin to achieve. Sui's movements have been astronomical over the last year and a half, but you can change your own parameters within the software. We had a customer the other day that called us and said, hey, I'd like to create more activity. I'd like to trade more in the arbitrage strategy on bitcoin well, we took him into his settings and we showed him exactly how to lower the threshold that had to be met in order to trigger those trades. He was able to adjust it himself. He now is an expert in, in how to adjust those parameters and so he can create infinite instances that allow him to capitalize on that volatility. If he thinks that a 5% dip in Bitcoin in a four hour windows of buying opportunity, that's what will be triggered. If he thinks a 5% dip in a day candle is the trigger point, he can set that, he can set both of them at the same time. He can set 15 more on top of those that actually are lines in the water that you determine the settings on that. Now you can forget about and go live your life. And when the market presents the opportunity or, or answers the opportunity against those conditions, bam, you're ready to execute. And you have the capabilities of doing that without sitting in front of your computer and monitoring it. So it's extremely flexible. A lot of misconception that we get is that we have access to funds. We do not, we do not trade your capital. This is a user based program. We will teach you how to use the software. Another big misnomer is that it's one, one trade, it's one algo, it's one strategy. It's not. It's a platform that allows you to create infinite numbers of strategies and conditions and then set those and forget about them. So we can walk you through that, we can teach you about the software. But seeing really is believing and that's why we've made the product free to use. It is not a watered down version. Come on our website, click try now and you will be plugged in with one of our excellent concierge members and one of our employees. And they will walk you through learning the software. They will show you the, the robust functionality and the capabilities of it. And they will get you to a point where you're taking trades and you're actually doing it. Once you're there, you're going to know whether it's something for you or not. It's seeing is the believing. And you're going to either see tremendous value in it and go, aha moment. This is something I've never had access to before or you know, if you, if you've seen it and done it before, please reach out to me because I have it and I'd like to know who our competitors are. We're really trying to serve a unique niche in the market here and Getting people institutional tools at a retail level.

[Andrew]

Andrew, final thoughts here.

[David]

Final thoughts are we're in the dog days of summer, so in August, we're doing some extraordinary discounts on our concierge program that we've never done before. There are four different tiers inside of our, our concierge program, which allow you to trade a certain amount of volume on an annualized basis. So you've, if you've ever been interested in the concierge program, now is the time to have that conversation anew. And then, you know, to Tillman's point, you know, the, the, the, the ideas associated with quote, unquote, algos. These aren't singular algos. This is a warehouse of tools that are available to you that aren't available anywhere else. And, you know, once people get comfortable, three, six weeks down the road, they've gone from using two versions of this, you know, Bitcoin and maybe Solana, to Now they're running 17 versions. Working with our team on Bitcoin, XRP, Solana, Sui, and something else. We're available now on Gemini and Kraken. We're available on another exchange we're keeping under our hat. But we. It is actually available. We'll announce it later. But, you know, three different exchanges and, you know, your ability to use our tools across those exchanges, completely unlimited.

[Andrew]

You got it. Archpublic.com. i had it up there. Bring it back up. You can see it down in the scrolly thing. You can see it in the description. You can see it literally everywhere. I mean, if you like money, seems like a good thing to consider.

[David]

Money. Yeah. That's good.

[Andrew]

I can't think of a better way to end it. Thank you, Tillman. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Josh, with the good hair. It's been a pleasure, gentlemen. See you next week. Bye.

[Josh Frank]

Let's go. That's dope.