← The Wolf Of All Streets
The Wolf Of All Streets
Bitcoin Accumulation ERUPTS As The Financial System Cracks! Supply Shock Incoming?
00:30:20
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- [00:01]
A
There's been massive bitcoin accumulation in the 60 to 70,000 region, or has there? We're going to discuss an article by CoinDesk that is claiming that that is a fact, but maybe it is a bit misleading. Either way, clearly there's a lot of interest in bitcoin, both buying and selling at these levels. All in the context of a head scratcher of a State of the Union address and of course the financial system cracking. We've got a lot to talk about. Luckily, I have an amazing guest CEO of Coin Routes, Ian Weisberger here to unpack it all. Let's go.
- [00:37]
B
Let's dope.
- [00:52]
A
Good morning everybody. Welcome to the Caribbean where we're having a lovely day here. I hope that you all are having a great Wednesday. I tried to stay awake for the State of the Union address last night, but I fell asleep. I was watching, I made it through about 10 minutes and I caught some like mid dream comments otherwise. So I don't have so much to unpack as far as the State of the Union. I am contractually obligated though to ask you once a month to like and subscribe to the channel because I'm getting in trouble for not doing. We do. Before we bring on Ian to discuss everything that's happening with the market today, we have an incredible new sponsor. It's kind of weird to call them a sponsor. It's Abra, because I'm a customer and have been for a long time. I've had Bill Barheid on here a million times, you guys have seen him. But obviously, Abra, I'm a customer. As I said, I went to them actually when I was looking to get a mortgage, which is very difficult process if you own crypto. For those who don't know, I was able to very seamlessly take out a loan. Not only that, they went to bat with me massively with the mortgage company, all of the crazy accounting that I needed, but basically I was able to take a stack of my bitcoin, go over there, take a 50% LTV loan, use that money as a down payment and to actually count as part of my net worth. But they're completely regulated, obviously by the sec. They've gone through every battle you could in the crypto lending market to come out on top. Just an incredible, incredible platform. I highly recommend if you're looking to earn, yield or other ways to put your coins to work, if that is in your wheelhouse that you sign up with Abra to do so, it's opera.comwolf is this page right here. Abra.comwolf there's also a link down in the description. I'm going to be telling you more about them obviously into the future, but all I can say is that I actually use it and I, and I trust Bill implicitly who's been on this channel many, many times. Their team is incredible. And so I highly recommend that you go check them out now. Going to bring on in. I mean, when people see the name Weisberger, I'm not sure this is the face they expect. But you are the CEO of Coin Routes that Dave often talks about. It's great to have you here. We've obviously spoken on Crypto Town hall quite a few times.
- [03:09]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me, Scott.
- [03:11]
A
Of course. So listen, I want to first of all start with the idea here that we've seen massive demand in this 60 to 70k region because to be honest, this was sent to me by the producers. It was the title. We had over 400,000 bitcoin bought between 60k and 70k during bitcoin's latest downturn. So I obviously, I like to at least attempt to fact check things because it was based on the title. And what I dug into is that this is URPD data. It's basically showing what coins have moved in a region. And this chart that they share actually has very little to do with time based. But what it shows basically is that there's been a lot of coins moving in this area between 60 and 70,000, which could be for various reasons like OTC desks or ETF custody. Could be reshuffling of wallets by whales. But this does not implicitly say that there's been 400 Bitcoin bought. Right. And I know you actually have a lot of data on coinpal as to what's happening in the market. So I was trying to look for some clarity.
- [04:11]
B
Yeah, I mean, to say this market's going one or the other right now, I think is. Is crazy. I don't think anyone really knows for sure. It's definitely not clear from my perspective. What is clear is there's been huge outflows in altcoins and huge drops in open interest in the derivative markets on things that aren't Bitcoin and maybe eth. And really, I think we've been talking about this a lot. My view is that the metals are sucking up all the liquidity. And I just did a check. So on Hyper Liquid silver derivatives did twice the volume of Solana. So it's today 750 million in volume. Today and 320 million on Solana. So, like, just think about that. Like, this was unimaginable a couple months ago that Silver would be twice as big as Solana.
- [04:59]
A
That's unimaginable to be today because I thought when Silver was at 120, that would have been not a surprise to me. But silver has exited the narrative at least slightly over the past month. It kind of topped and now it's consolidating. So the fact that it's still doing that is. I don't know if that's good news for Silver or really bad news for the altcoin market. I think I.
- [05:21]
B
It's pretty bad news for the altcoin market. I mean, look, I'm not going to make a price prediction on bitcoin. I think that's Dave's game. He's really good at it. I'm not going to mess with that. But the reality is just the outflows and altcoins is insane and the lack of interest. I mean, I remember during the last cycle I had emergency calls because we had some issues with dogecoin. And it was all hands on deck making sure that dogecoin was performing and we were able to route dogecoin. And in that one day, I think half our volume was dogecoin. Those days are over. That's gone. That's long behind us now. It's like, hey, can we add pax gold to this route and make sure that we're able to route gold for our clients?
- [05:55]
A
Right.
- [05:56]
B
That's kind of the flavor du jour. And that's not to say that people aren't asking to trade alts. It's just the demand is way down. We see it way down.
- [06:04]
A
Have you seen spikes in that during this quote unquote cycle at all? So, like, it feels to me that looking back now, it's basically just been a bear market for altcoins since the end of 2021, beginning of 2022, with some like, very quick narrative spikes on meme coins. Or there was that AI kind of run where render and all those were going crazy. And then, you know, and of course Hyper liquid had its moment, which actually has some utility is interesting. But I.
- [06:32]
B
Look, I think that coins that have cash flows are going to do well. And that's hype that some of these other dexes, if they can pull off real cash flows, like they're going to do well. I saw a story the other day. There was some coin that still has a $3 billion valuation and the fees are $10 per day, not 10,000, not even a thousand. $10 per day. And this coin is worth billions of dollars that's gone. Like that is in my opinion not going to, you know, exist anymore. Like if there's going to be a coin with a multi billion dollar market cap, there better be some cash flows or at least a hope of future cash flows. Like if you looked at it as a business you would want to think okay, is there a hope in hell that this thing is going to have cash flows in the future? Like that's the view. It doesn't necessarily have to have it now. But a lot of these projects are just doomed. And one of the reasons for that. Thank you for reminding me. Is because of a lot of the gamblers that degenerate gambling has moved on to prediction markets.
- [07:25]
A
Yes, right.
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B
And so the demand for these meme coins which were basically just used for people gambling like is now going into these prediction markets. And so it's really. We've seen kind of like a shift in the crypto markets because of that.
- [07:39]
A
I think you're reminding me because I've been on that for a very long time and I even like after saying that for months now I'm trying to find it but I wrote an article on that. I've written like two articles ever on Twitter which is a rare thing. I don't know why I even was so inspired but. But I was have such high conviction that topic and got so much pushback. Visit when everything becomes white death of all coins and rise of the speculation economy is basically saying, and I've been saying it for months, prediction markets have taken away any interest. Like if you can gamble on the weather tomorrow legally, like why would you go like get a VPN to find a dex to buy a meme coin that you know is fixed. Like these are fair markets. Well okay, maybe I'm sure there's some insider trading on prediction markets but these are fairer markets than random meme coin where someone has 99 of the supply and then you add silver on top of this and game of silver is
- [08:30]
B
really, I mean like silver was a nail in the coffin for me from this prediction markets probably whatever. But. But silver and now that you can trade. I mean the whole reason for the all these meme coins was so that you can gamble 24 7, 365. I mean you had people that were like get like trading meme coins from their phone at the bar. Like some of our clients might have requested mobile enhancements during that time. Right. Like I Know what? I know how this goes. But now that you know they can, they can do the same thing on prediction markets and now that they can gamble on, on, on silver where there's just so much liquidity and, and you don't have. It's like it's, you know, it's, it's just easier for them, for them to do that. Right. Like they can hedge it on any normal broker platform and they can trade it on crypto. It's, it's a, it's a pretty good product now that these things are available 24. 7. So even like thinking about the tokenized stocks, that's taken a lot of the wind out of the sale of some of these, some of these coins when you can Trade Tesla on 100 times leverage or whatever.
- [09:23]
A
Yeah, you're really good at this. You're making my job very easy. You've now prompted me twice for perfect segues. Kraken launches 24.7perpetuals trading for tokenized US stocks with up to 20x leverage. So by the way, I don't even think I have the other story, but there's kind of.
- [09:38]
B
I mean, they're late. Like it's cool that they did great, amazing. But like hyperlink, we did this months ago. A bunch of people. I think, like everyone just sees the writing on the wall here that this is going to be a thing that 24. 7 stock trading is, is now a thing. Like it took the crypto industry to make it possible, but even I think Robinhood did it or one of the, A bunch of the big brokers are doing 24. 5 now.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah. So I was just going to say the other story I don't have brought up, but it was announced yesterday 24. 5 on Coinbase for stock trading. But I'm not sure if that was tokenized stock trading. Now I'll have to look, we're just stock trading. But I think the bigger story here is not only that this is 24. 7, there's three things. It's 24. 7, which generally doesn't exist in the stock market. It's tokenized, which is the crypto side. And then the real kicker, it's perps.
- [10:21]
B
Yeah. I mean, my advice to retail would be don't, don't trade in size outside of market hours because you're going to get your face ripped off.
- [10:29]
A
Imagine. Yeah. I mean, so this is awesome. It's the innovation and it's going to force the hand of other markets. But like, I guess maybe to like circle back altcoins. Like why sadly, we, we got to pretend for years that we were in it for this community and the utility and the world. Maybe that's true with 10 of them, that's cool. But the rest, like, if we're being intellectually honest, it was just about gambling. Pure speculation.
- [10:58]
B
Yeah. I mean, we wanted to feel smart that we picked the winner in the L2 or whatever race. I mean, but yeah, it was, it was, it was about money. I would agree with that. I mean, I look back at some of the coins that I had owned like in 2017, 2018, and they're like, they're dead. They haven't moved from, from back then. And when bitcoin's up, everything's up. You know, even now, versus that these all coins have just bled. Bled, market cap, most of them. Right. Since then.
- [11:21]
A
So how does this work with coin routes? So obviously, like you, I, I understand the, I think the basic broad strokes of the business. But now if everything's going to be 24 7, 365 on blockchain rails, does that mean you guys have to scale to offer everything to all of your. I mean, it's great.
- [11:36]
B
Have. Yeah, I mean, I had the, I had a guy in my office the other day that was a rep for a futures broker. It's called the fcm, but it's basically a brokerage for futures. And we're connecting up to that. Another, another one. Right. Like, we, we have to, like, we already list stocks and futures and options and everything. And it's really like, you have to, like, you have to have all these different asset classes. And the thing is, we have an advantage because we were built for 247 crypto systems. Whereas if you take an equity system like they're used to going down on the weekends and they have a lot of problems. Even the, you know, traditional exchanges, they're doing 24 5. Like, it's going to be hard for them to do 24 7.
- [12:14]
A
Well, I don't even understand, like, I have buddies in the hedge fund world who are just scratching their heads and like, disbelief that they might have to somehow figure out a way to plug the holes of most of the hours of the week. You know, I've got a buddy at Citadel. Yeah, we can't do this. He's like, you can't. Like we can't hire enough people to do this. Well, to have stocks trading 24 7, 36 5.
- [12:37]
B
I mean, they better open more offices. That's why we open Dubai, London, we're going to do Hong Kong. I mean, that's that's why we're doing all this, because you have, we have to follow the sun. There's, there's, there's, there's no way. I mean, that's how we do it. We have to hand off every, every nine hours, we have to hand off to the next shift because, you know, this is crypto and it's 24 7. Right.
- [12:56]
A
I would imagine the other reason you're in Dubai is still legislative and regulatory concerns in the United States.
- [13:04]
B
Yeah, I mean, look like it's, it's not, it's not great. From my perspective, in, you know, in, in, in, in the US for derivatives trading, which is most of the volume, I think, for a spot, a lot of players are, are doing it well and making a lot of money. But I think the exchanges in the US have had to make a lot of compromises around what products they can, they can offer, basically. So they can't offer perps still, really. I mean, like, you can, but the liquidity is very low.
- [13:31]
A
Like coin, all markets have perps. Like, I mean, perps are a really, really cool product, but they've also almost been the death of our industry multiple times, including definitely when Bitmex coincidentally turned off the exchange entirely when bitcoin went from 6,000 to 3,500 in a matter of hours.
- [13:50]
B
I've argued with a lot of people over this, actually, and basically it comes down to different models. So the problem is futures in the US Are really difficult. Essentially there are no single stock futures, I. E. Like a future on Tesla or a perp on Tesla because of just the regulatory red tape and the way that it has to work. But essentially in the US for derivatives contracts, you have to be credit checked. To try to simplify this a little bit, you have to be credit checked by the broker. And then it's a whole long process because essentially, if you run out of margin, let's say I bought a million dollars of whatever of bitcoin futures, for instance, and I put up $250,000 of margin, right? If that bitcoin drops enough so that I'm bankrupt on that $250,000 position, like I owe them money, they're not allowed to liquidate me in real time. They literally do a T +1 margin call, which means they literally pick up the phone and call you and they say, hey, you need to post more collateral in crypto, as soon as it gets close to being out of margin, they liquidate you. But that's not the case in US Regulated derivatives. And so That's a huge problem, like, because the way that crypto works is, that's not really how crypto works abroad. And I personally, I think it's a better model to just be able to liquidate people in real time because then you can onboard clients without having to credit check them. And it's not like this really weird bifurcated market. But the way it works in the US is that's not, that's not the way that works.
- [15:14]
A
Right. So how does a Kraken in the US offer something like this? Or, you know, what's the path to this product being available everywhere in the United States? Or is that. I haven't even looked. Is it for non US clients, you know, and only uncertainty.
- [15:26]
B
They have it, but it's a T plus one margin call still. They still do the same thing. And so you have to have like a credit check. It's not great.
- [15:31]
A
It's not like a good Amazon product, but it doesn't. The mechanics behind it do not liquidate. The liquidation engine is not the same.
- [15:38]
B
It's not structured in the same way. And so it's, it's going to be difficult for those products to become popular, in my opinion. It's going to be really difficult for that to catch up. I think they're trying to do stuff to change it, but, you know, from our perspective they're not. And so it's going to be harder to onboard more people onto those products. And so the perps market is still
- [15:55]
A
going to stay offshore wild. Yeah. So we're on our way and we still don't have the legislation. I mean, when you look at what's happening here with the Clarity act, obviously, which is intended to answer some of these questions, certainly at least which regulators, CFTC versus sec, what might happen with derivatives. You're sitting in Dubai.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah, like, I'm really hopeful. It's one of those things, you know, it's one of those things where like, I really want, you know, my country to do well and I'm hopeful that in the long term it will sort it out. However, like, while they're sorting it out, we're, we're building offshores is essentially how I look at it. Just because we don't have enough certainty from our perspective yet. But I think, I think it'll get there. It's not like a doom and gloom type situation. It's just like they're going to need to work it out amongst themselves, basically. And I'm not willing to spend more money on legal to sort it out for them right now.
- [16:49]
A
So to be very clear though then the narrative that it's very easy now to just do things in the United States in crypto is not entirely true.
- [16:57]
B
Not derivatives at all? No, no.
- [17:00]
A
So that's more specific to derivatives. Maybe if you were launching a project, things would, or a token or something, things might be a lot easier than they used to have.
- [17:08]
B
But I don't maybe, but it's not a lot of people's first choice given like I look, I just spent a couple weeks in Hong Kong. We just closed the deal with, we got an investment which was announced today from the original founder of Huobi, it's called Avenir Group. And just like being introduced around by those guys and seeing the energy in Hong Kong and how much is going on there and whatever, like versus and Dubai as well and you know, a lot of other places versus like what's going on in the US it's just a different breed for people that are actually trying to push the envelope. Like if you're just running a spot exchange and you're doing like OTC trading, the US is probably fine. But for any of these crypto native products, it's still, it's still a bit, it's tricky, right?
- [17:47]
A
Even if you think you can do it now, you may not be able to in two to four years. So we don't have the, no pun intended clarity I think that we're looking for. I mean, circling back to the market here a bit, Tom Lee. Bitcoin's 50 drop is a crypto squall, not a winter. Obviously. His point being that we've seen this movie before and we've been fine. Right. I think a lot of people always point back to 2021, when Bitcoin and altcoins importantly raged through the first half of the year. Summer was terrible. Banned. You know, bitcoin mining and bitcoin in general. We went from 65 down to 28, but then raged back up to 69. ETH made new all time highs afterwards and all was well. So is this time different I guess is the question. Because I think there's almost consensus that we can call this crypto winter now.
- [18:37]
B
I mean, I just, I don't think that back then there were like, there's a large amount of supply in bitcoin. I mean I'm not talking about all coins, but in bitcoin there's a huge amount. There's over a million bitcoin locked up in spot Bitcoin ETFs. That was a lot. That's a lot of like the floating supply of the liquid supply and that it's hard. You know, a lot of that is passive allocation and some people have like 401ks whatever. It's passive. It's not like as easy to exit as back in 21 when it could just, I mean it was all, most of it was on exchange. There was a bit of etf, there was that futures etf, but it was, it was harder. I think the market is definitely like there's more institutions in the market now. That said like obviously the retail holders are going to be flighty and are going to sell, but just based on the volumes on the exchange, I mean there's still a lot of volume happening, there's still a lot of trading going on. I think that's a little bit different from post FDX and whatever when volumes fell off a cliff and open interest fell off a cliff even more than it is now. I think people just trading different products are not trading altcoins anymore. Like back, back in the last cycle the altcoins kind of propped up the overall market cap a lot. And that's not happening anymore.
- [19:38]
A
Right.
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B
And yeah, as I said earlier, you have people trading silver, you have people trading other derivatives, you have people like any dollar that's in Tesla perp is a dollar not in Bitcoin or another thing if it's sitting on a crypto exchange. Right. And so you have all these other assets that are competing for, for, for market share now.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, right. And I think it's always important these days to put all of it in context of macro markets. Right. Because I think that we saw that global uncertainty is at an all time high and yesterday I think credit card delinquencies at an all time high. And there's a couple other stories that sort of align with that. US banks are currently facing unrealized losses of 306 billion. This is that part of our title that talks about the financial system cracking. Massive treasury bill auction schedule. Google searches for can't sell house just hit an all time high. We also saw that Google searches for bitcoin going to zero hit an all time high. And then maybe. I think the biggest disruption obviously has been AI. Right. I mean someone asked Claude to track what happens Spoiler. Every time Anthropic announces something new it goes really bad for some major stock that people have been holding. So I just think this like level of uncertainty is probably contributing to what's happening in the bitcoin market or what could happen as well.
- [20:54]
B
Yeah, I Mean, look, the AI stuff is super interesting because you know, it's such a small percentage of the population that's actually using AI in, in their work versus, versus legacy tools. But the people that are using it have, have an outsized advantage. And at the end of the day, if there's an AI revolution of Skynet, they're going to pay each other in crypto. So that's, this should be bullish for crypto, right? I mean like AIs aren't necessarily paying each other in fiat, they're paying each other in stables and, and in crypto.
- [21:19]
A
Right?
- [21:20]
B
Yeah, they're not using, they're not using, they're not using cash. But I, look, I agree, I think SaaS companies, I was talking to an investor about this. I think SaaS companies without a mode are done. I think that if any, if a model company could just drop an update and replace your entire business, that's a terrible business. So a lot of these wrappers that are thin wrappers on top of AI will be done. But companies that have proprietary data, there's a moat there because they have data that these models don't necessarily have access to. Right. So it's really gonna, the people that have good proprietary data and network effects are going to do even better. And, and the people that are just like glorified services business calling themselves SaaS are going to do horribly. That's just kind of the name of the game.
- [21:58]
A
It's just kind of interesting to see the shift in how markets react to all of this in real time because obviously you had, the Mag 7 was way up, but those are actually kind of, you know, software stocks have been absolutely destroyed, but the S and P is still near an all time high. I think it's just very hard to parse what's going on and all of that. While silver and gold are still, you know, near highs, which should be trading, you know, obviously inversely probably to stocks or risk as you know, Mike McGlone or Beta, Mike McGlone likes to call it. I just find it extremely the most confusing time I've ever seen in markets.
- [22:34]
B
Yeah, it seems the sense is that it's, everything's kind of out of whack. I, I would agree with that sentiment but I mean look, I think the AI revolution could, could definitely there's going to be winners and there's, and there's going to be losers.
- [22:44]
A
So like, what else are you watching? Is there anything on the platform? I mean the death of all coins has long been celebrated here, but you're actually seeing that in the data. So I think that that's interesting. Is there any way that these are just bottom signals? It's like so bad right now.
- [22:56]
B
I think that there's a bottom signal on bitcoin. I don't love to make price predictions and it's not investment advice, but I was out to dinner with some Emiratis and this British guy and the guy was, oh, crypto is a scam. Like, and he's showing me this, this photo of this one trillion lost. And mind you, the Emiratis are all like gold traders and everything. And I'm like, wait, but gold lost more than that in value for when it went from 5,600 to, you know, 5,000, like this is normal, like that's really nothing. And he was like, oh, okay, grumble, grumble. But like, you know when people are really going this hard against, against this asset. And then another investor, normie investor on a call the other day was like, oh, like our institutions deallocating from crypto. Is crypto going to zero? Like the last time I heard that it was kind of close to a bottom, to be honest, because it's either like, okay, is this gonna go up a lot? Or whatever. It wasn't like, is this going to zero? And so for me, it does kind of feel like the bottom for bitcoin is here. Maybe it's in the 50s, but I think we're close. I think we're close.
- [23:50]
A
Yeah. I mean that's all a process of bottoming. Like if we go to 55, that's a rounding error from the 60 or 50.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah. Anecdotally, like based on sentiment and based on. Yeah, it does kind of feel like a bottom of bitcoin.
- [24:01]
A
So we have crypto fearing. I mean I've showed it every day here. But crypto, fear and greed hit the lowest it's ever hit. Right. And like last I checked, we're not at $2,000, we're at $65,000. We have and for the longest period ever we've seen that, like I said, bitcoin going to zero. Google searches at an all time high. Right. I mean these are not top signals. Those are not things you want to show. And oh, RSI on Bitcoin tapped when it went down to 62,000 yesterday or the day before. RSI on the weekly, you have to wait till it closes. But it was the lowest it's ever been for a moment there. Now it's slightly above the July 22nd. Everything collapsed lows. But I mean that's historically oversold on the weekly chart. I mean, it's just very hard to confidently bet strongly on much lower. And even if you do, to have the conviction you're going to be able to close it in time before it bounces right back.
- [25:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm excited. I think depending on the geopolitical situation, I think if this gets resolved, then we bounce from here straight away. If we don't and this drags on, then we stop in these ranges. That's, that's kind of my thought.
- [25:09]
A
Geopolitical situation, specifically Iran.
- [25:12]
B
Yeah.
- [25:12]
A
Or just the. Yeah, I mean.
- [25:14]
B
Yeah.
- [25:15]
A
And, and you know, as Dave often points out, there's. Markets generally tend to do poorly right before the war. But the second there's any clarity on what's happening, whether no war or war starts, markets tend to bounce because you have certainty.
- [25:28]
B
It feels like it's getting resolved and that this. We're close to a bottom in bitcoin. I think everything else is who, who knows? I mean, with, with the altcoins. But yeah, with bitcoin, it does, it does feel like, I mean, because if there was gonna, who's really gonna be left to sell at this, at these levels, who's. Who's selling into the lower 50s? Like, I don't, I don't know who's. Who would be jumping at this point,
- [25:47]
A
kind of the other funny thing when I saw that headline is like 400k bitcoin accumulated. Like if you're a bear, can't you just say 400k Bitcoin sold in the 660 to 70,000 region? If somebody's accumulating bitcoin, there's also somebody willing to sell that many bitcoin to them, right?
- [26:05]
B
Yeah, exactly. So I don't, it just doesn't. Doesn't seem like it. And it looks like the volumes are picking back up and, and so on and so forth. So, I mean, yeah, it seems, it seems like we could be kind of close, but who knows?
- [26:16]
A
Yeah. I mean, one last thing. It could be a bottom signal. I don't know. According to Goldman Sachs Global Investment research, Michael Saylor's MicroStrategy is the number one most shorted stock in the world.
- [26:25]
B
Wow.
- [26:26]
A
And, yeah, you know, that seems like a stock that might be ripe for a squeeze in theory. When is the crowd completely right? When something's overcrowded and there's consensus on one side of a trade.
- [26:41]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [26:42]
A
I mean, I wouldn't be shorting microstrategy here.
- [26:46]
B
I mean, like, I wouldn't I wouldn't be short.
- [26:48]
A
What do you think of treasury companies like, as we wrap. I mean, you know, beyond MicroStrategy. I mean, we keep seeing these Nakamoto down 99.9999. I know.
- [26:57]
B
I saw that.
- [26:58]
A
Not. Rabbi. That's kind of disingenuous because, like, they traded at 28 before they were even a business. But still, I mean, I think, like,
- [27:05]
B
there's some, like, I don't know about the bitcoin ones, but there. But. But for the proof of stake chains like the Eth. Treasuries and other Treasuries, like, there is a way for them to make money. Yeah. Ecosystem.
- [27:15]
A
Yeah.
- [27:16]
B
Like you can do staking and you can get more than staking. There's utility. I get it. But I don't think, like MicroStrategy, for instance, isn't doing anything with the Bitcoin. Like, there's nothing they're really doing from my understanding that they're doing with it. So it's just. They're just buying and buying more bitcoin and using their debt facility. It's not like they're actually putting it to work in the crypto economy.
- [27:34]
A
But they could.
- [27:35]
B
But they could.
- [27:37]
A
And that's what we trade.
- [27:38]
B
No.
- [27:38]
A
Yeah.
- [27:39]
B
I'm kidding.
- [27:39]
A
But then.
- [27:39]
B
Yeah, right. And it's kind of like a volatility wrapper. So, I mean, look, if there was a digital asset treasury, like, there's. There's one for hype. I don't know if it launched yet or it was going to launch. And that's cool because there's actually really a lot of utility for hype. There's a lot of volume and I could see that being worth more than Nav. Because they have the network effects. They can make whatever 10 yield on it if they. If they loan it out and, and do stuff with it. And I think that's the expectation is that eventually people will be able to do and put those assets to work. And then. That's interesting. More interesting.
- [28:05]
A
Is there anywhere you look right now in the altcoin market that even piques your interest slightly?
- [28:11]
B
I like hype. I own Hype. We own Hype. Yeah.
- [28:14]
A
And tell me why.
- [28:18]
B
Look, I mean, they're pulling volume away from Binance and, And they've like. There's a couple other Dexes that are. That are trying to do what they're doing. And so far they haven't gotten really critical mass. And it's done pretty. It's done better than bitcoin, you know, so it's done decent. And so, yeah, I think. I think there's. I mean, there's cash flows there. There's a. I don't know what the. The trade. What it trades at to nav, but it's not crazy. It's like. It trades like a tech stock.
- [28:41]
A
Yeah.
- [28:42]
B
It doesn't. It doesn't trade like. Like a meme.
- [28:44]
A
So you could actually value it. Weird.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah. You can value it based on cash flows, which I like. Crazy.
- [28:49]
A
The idea that something might actually have to have assignable value in crypto. I know, it's nuts. Well, we kept it. We knocked out the half hour. I appreciate you being here, Ian. Where can everybody follow you, check you out and check out coin routes, of course.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah. I'm Most active on LinkedIn, actually, so I post a lot of stuff on LinkedIn and then you can check us out on Twitter as well.
- [29:09]
A
Awesome. Appreciate you, man. Thank you so much. Look forward to having you back very soon. Everybody else, we will see you tomorrow. Thanks, Ian.
- [29:16]
B
All right, take care. Thank you for having me.
- [29:17]
A
It.
- [29:19]
B
That's dope.