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Bitcoin Drops Below 90K - Was That The Bottom? | Crypto Town Hall
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Bitcoin Drops Below 90K - Was That The Bottom? | Crypto Town Hall
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- [00:00]
Scott Melker
Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. Bloody Monday to start the day, but looking like we're getting quite the bounce still. Bitcoin obviously starting the day today, I think around 94,500, as high as $95,882 during this trading day, which of course is 24 hours. So kind of a rolling day, but going below $90,000 today for the first time, I believe, since Basically mid November, November 18 was the last time the bitcoin price, looking at the chart, traded below $90,000 went there today. But it was brief. If you were watching Macro Monday this morning, my show that I do on YouTube at 9am every Monday with James Lavish, Mike McGlone and Dave Weisberger, I pretty, like, admittedly bought bitcoin on that drop. While we were sitting there on the show, the comments were, hey, Scott looks really distracted. Why is he looking at his phone? What's he doing? I bought Solana and I bought bitcoin on that drop. Just for full transparency doesn't mean I think that they can't go lower. But for me, you know, long term, I am very, very strongly believe that this asset class continues to rage massively upwards. And that that seemed like a very, very good buying opportunity. Bitcoin, almost 93,000 right now. What a bounce. We have the topic here. Bitcoin drops below 90k, was that the bottom? I don't like to say things were the bottom, but that looked like a bottom, you know. And I think that if you're trading, certainly when you see a massive area of liquidity sort of tested like that, you know, that at least initially, you should see a big bounce because buyers step in that have been interested, like myself, at buying bitcoin back below $90,000 if it got there. But there's a lot of, obviously things happening in the, in the macro picture. And I think that bitcoin obviously has these moments where it sort of starts to correlate to other markets. That drop happened right when markets opened because it missed that. It was right around 9:30am about an hour ago, just under an hour ago, which is pretty crazy that we were under $90,000, I believe, 45 minutes ago, now trading back at 93,000. But obviously when you woke up this morning and saw the DXY, the dollar index at 110 tom, and at the same time, you could see what was happening with interest rates. I think markets hate uncertainty. And we are in a very, very, very uncertain point at this moment because none of the data seems to line up. It's hard for People to determine whether we have a good or a bad economy. And I think that that's obviously putting pressure on markets. I mean, DXY was 110 and the 10 year yields hit 4.8% before retreating on us 10 years today. You know, last time I checked, when the Fed starts its rate cutting cycle, the expectation is that interest rates will come down and they've gone up and they've gone up massively. So I think it's just causing a hell of a lot of confusion. But I mean, Dave, we were just on YouTube watching Bitcoin go below 90 and you're saying, well, look at that bounce right back to 90,500. Well, now we're back to 93,000.
- [03:20]
Dave Weisberger
I mean, look, you got a lot of motion, right? You know, people were still, in this period of time before Trump comes in, people are still worried about what's happening. We've just seen a absolutely catastrophic disaster unfold in one of the richest areas in the United States. And you know, there's just a lot of cross currents here. I mean, frankly, as I said to you on the show, what's happening in terms of potential drops in confidence in the, in the financial system is this is almost a perfect storm for Bitcoin in the long term. But in the short term, if people on trading desks or people in funds or whatever are de risking themselves and saying, okay, I need to make sure I'm okay, they sell what they have to sell, you know, what they can sell. They don't sell what they want to sell. And so you see these sorts of moves. It's not all that surprising, but it's amusing in a way. If you're sitting here with no leverage and with your liquidity needs for the next couple of years salted away, which is where that's the situation that I'm in. I just look at this and I say, well, okay, this is a perfect dip buying opportunity if you wanted to. And frankly, you did do that while we were on the show. You did it live. Kind of amusing, but it's not really that surprising to people or it really shouldn't be because there's nothing that's happened in the news cycle other than potential short term US Government sales in the, in the, in the last week before we get a new administration that's going to change anything.
- [04:59]
Scott Melker
Yeah, but did you align with sort of the, I mean, I know you do, but this just uncertainty of how markets are reacting to each piece of data that sort of comes out right now? I mean, you got strong Jobs you got obviously unemployment down. But as James said on the show this morning, we're expecting a actual sizable uptick in inflation with CPI this week. And you have the incoming administration and nobody believes the numbers anyway. So is this just markets hate uncertainty? To me, that's what is happening.
- [05:30]
Dave Weisberger
Well, yeah, it's uncertainty and watching the bond rates. Right. Watching the long end, you know, people's fears are always going to be that the government loses control of the bond market. Market. We saw this in October of 23, as it approached 5% back then and it was equally fearful. And being October, we saw equal sorts of volatility. And you can go back and look and it shouldn't surprise anybody. This is exactly what happens now. What is my theory? My theory is post October 23, when the government figured out how to inject liquidity to stabilize the bond yields and actually make them go back down into a more acceptable range, there was a pretty sizable rally in all risk assets. Am I saying it's going to happen again? Well, it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, if I'm the Trump administration, I kind of want to see this to be a crappy week and to come in with a lower baseline so that they, you know, for them to measure themselves and. But we'll see. You know, everyone was talking about buy the, you know, buy the rumor and sell the fact of the inauguration. I think at this point it's pretty clear that the selling of the inauguration has happened early and we'll see what really happens. I think it could be, it could.
- [06:44]
Scott Melker
Be quite interesting when you're obviously tracking the macro. I saw you kind of giving a few emojis when I was talking about this sort of confusion and uncertainty. What do you think?
- [06:58]
James Lavish
Well, yeah, certainly, you know, good morning. You know, and just looking at, you know, like looking at uncertainty, you know, we're definitely seeing quite a bit of uncertainty in the sense that we have a very strong dollar and parts of the commodities complex are rising in the face of a strong dollar, which is a bit alarming. Right. We have copper, silver, gold, aluminum. They're all up on a month to date basis. I'm sure you've talked about this to death this morning, but yes, 100,000 is definitely a psychological resistance level here. So we saw some interim push back down to say 90,000 level. But if that is a new support, because we've seen an influx of investors kind of moving out of bitcoin on the interim. And I think some of that was just some of the sentiment overall with the Trump administration and their positive outlook on bitcoin. So if that's the new support level, you can make a contrast or comparison to something like copper. If this is a new level of say like $4 with copper and then you have this level of say 90,000 to 92,000 for Bitcoin, I think that is fairly positive news. One area that we shouldn't overlook is the geopolitical front and what's happening here. So we have a lot of sort of interim to long term catalysts that can arrive for bitcoin and for some of the commodities complex here as well. So obviously with the comments coming from the incoming administration about tariffs, there's been some news of a crackdown in India for their purchasing of Russian oil. You can even look at something like some of the comments coming out about the Iranians and their proposed nuclear program. And then also even with the Israeli Palestinian conflict, it doesn't look like we could have a resolution on that front either anytime soon. So if you put all of these things together, this sort of geopolitical uncertainty is quite positive for bitcoin. And then also if we have any sort of commentary coming out of the administration with bitcoin as well, that's positive sentiment. So I think we saw some of that trade, that Trump trade priced in and I think that we may have seen a new support level here at around 90, 92,000. But we'll have to see what happens in the future. But on a long term basis, this does look positive for bitcoin overall.
- [09:31]
Scott Melker
Dave, you sound like you, you know.
- [09:35]
Dave Weisberger
Well, I mean, like, I don't know whether it's news or not news. I mean, you know, on the Twitter feeding that Trump basically talking about forming a crypto advisory council of 24 leaders to do this stuff. I mean, if he follows through and you get people who actually understand markets and know how to build this stuff and draft the right legislation in a way that isn't, you know, the way most securities, securities regulations tend to get built by the lobbyists of the large companies. As long as it is not done that way, I mean, it could be ridiculously bullish. But we will see, right? You know, he's not president yet and we haven't seen his people get nominated through. I mean, they should. And if they all start sailing through, I think you're going to see a very strong rally in the market. But I think people are very uncertain as to what kind of blockages will happen and what will go on. But you know, geopolitically, I mean, look, I think that right now most people are skeptical. And you know, I was talking to people this weekend who actually know something, you know, have some relations to some of the people who are in the know think that there could be some upside surprises there as well. So, you know, we'll see what happens.
- [10:48]
Scott Melker
Anyone else specific? Go ahead. Someone's jumping in. Alex?
- [10:53]
Alex
Yeah, I mean, I think there's crypto's classic sell the news kind of thing. I think we're getting into the close into the inauguration and we haven't seen, I don't know, there's not a lot of movement on anything right now. Not saying there won't be movement over time, but like people just kind of don't know what's going to happen on it. There is a lot of instability. I think the bond market is a huge part of it. This is obviously not just a U.S. phenomenon. You're seeing government bond rates kind of skyrocket across the globe as there's just a lot of selling of bonds and not, not nearly as much buying right now. And in particular, nobody knows what Trump's going to do to the debt. You know, the combination of the TCJA definitely getting extended if he starts dropping in a bunch of tariffs, they're going to be steeply, steeply inflationary. Inflation hasn't been cooling off. So again, I think it's just uncertainty. Someone else already said this, but it's uncertainty across the board and markets don't love uncertainty.
- [12:00]
Scott Melker
Simon?
- [12:03]
Simon
Yeah, it is a global story. While we all look to the US Everything has happened outside the US is accentuated. The reason this is a bitcoin story is because we're at peak centralization and we're in the midst of several currency wars. Just take one economy. Look at the UK right now. You got the highest level of national debt and debt to GDP for a long time. You got the pound weakening, you've got gilt long term rates rising. And remember, the UK has the most leveraged pension fund that's backed by gilts in the world. Last time one of our prime ministers tried to actually implement some capitalism, she was overthrown by the bank of England within 50 days because it broke the gilt market and ended up with a run on our pension. And so immediately you have to return to the same types of monetary policy that breaks everything in the first place. And so we are witnessing that. And I know people are saying we don't know what Trump's going to do. I think I know what he's going to do. I stand to be corrected. He's going to increase debt. He's going to have more debt than his previous administration. He's going to have more debt than the Biden administration because this is the way that the system is set up. Now, Bitcoin is, there's no doubt that Bitcoin is being fed with some of those dollars. And so therefore there's an element of is it risk off, is it risk on? But the reality is that Bitcoin was designed in a way where it doesn't matter whether the Fed keeps feeding it, it does have some short term impact. But it could be fed by any central bank or any outflow of a fiat currency into trying to protect yourself with the properties that Bitcoin gives you in a global currency war. And the type of environment we're in right now where everything's breaking, because the only thing you can do in this environment is buy Bitcoin or buy US Stocks or lend it to the US Government or own real estate. And real estate, quite frankly, we had a little shock because tragically, some of it's burning down in la.
- [14:24]
Scott Melker
Yeah, go ahead, Carlo. Good morning, Scott. Yeah, what a roller coaster. And it seems to be a repetitive pattern that we're seeing every Sunday. We wake up early, early Sunday morning and see everything dump and then we see an eventual correction. I have to agree with Simon. I mean, if you can't stop nation states from debasing currency and printing, end this endlessly to keep this thing going, which is what they all seem to have aligned themselves to do, you're going.
- [14:56]
Alex
To have to trade it.
- [14:57]
Scott Melker
If you can't beat it, trade it. That's what I've always been saying. And I think the best trade right now is to accumulate Bitcoin within your, your comfort level as a hedge against all of this global instability. But all that being said, Scott, the fundamentals haven't changed. Gary Gensler's out in seven days. Trump is getting sworn in with perhaps the most pro crypto administration the world has ever seen. Tech is definitely influential in White House policy. So I cannot see anything but upside for risk assets in crypto if this plays out as we all think. Yeah, I think that the big question mark right now in my mind, or with markets in general. As for bitcoin, Carlo, kind of to your point, I think we all know that there's nothing but tailwinds when it comes to bitcoin reserves and adoption by corporations, countries, sovereign. We know that the Trump administration will be bullish for bitcoin. I think what a lot of people are waiting to see perhaps is how much it's prioritized against other items on the docket in the first hundred days. Right. We were talking about this this morning again, Dave, you and I and Mike. But you know, to some degree, I think it's fair to say that bitcoin is priced for perfection right now based on all those things. Right. We've gone up to $108,000 because everybody knows that Trump's coming in.
- [16:24]
Dave Weisberger
I don't think so, Scott.
- [16:26]
Scott Melker
No, no, I, I mean, yeah, I, I, I'm gonna, that's the caveat, right? I'm telling you, a lot of people think that way. I'm not saying I think that way. So they want to actually see movement after the inauguration directly. So there could be a letdown if all of a sudden it's not a priority in the shorter term. I don't think that matters at all long term. And I think there are so many potential catalysts, like a strategic reserve that send bitcoin flying. But I mean, it is reasonable to think that a lot of people will be watching and waiting to see what he actually does versus what he's actually promised. But what he has done so far is put up a lot of appointees that are very pro crypto. That's meaningful.
- [17:03]
Dave Weisberger
Yeah, I, I think the point I was trying to make will crystallize to this when traders are looking from second to second, minute to minute, hour to hour, and investors are looking at month to month to year to year. And so you get all sorts of disconnects. So it, look, what is not priced in is something that within the first six months is 100% likely to happen, but it's not priced in, which is that every financial firm will be allowed to apply and offer crypto trading services. That is absolutely not priced into the market. There's no way, because you do not understand what that means. What that means is all. It's the great unlock of half of the, of the wealth of the world and how many other countries will then follow in those footsteps? That's just not priced in. It just isn't. Sorry. And it's 100% certain. You know, Paul Atkins is not going, is going to call Robert Cook at FINRA and say if you get applications from firms to trade bitcoin, you have to let them. You can't just stonewall it. Which has been the exact opposite of what we've had. It is absolutely certain. More and more companies are going to adopt Bitcoin as a Treasury asset. We know that is true. Maybe that's priced in. Maybe it isn't. I doubt it. Right. The strategic reserve is what everyone's talking about. I mean, it's probably somewhat thinking about maybe priced in and maybe be disappointed isn't. I doubt it. But it's a very big difference today. Right now, as it stands, most Americans either have hard time even buying the ETFs, or they have to go through and sign extra stuff. And certainly buying spot crypto is not easy through the normal channels. That is just not priced in. I'm sorry, but there are many other things, you're right. That we don't know. I mean, I think that one of the proximate causes for things to be down is the fact that I don't want to use adjectives, but when people like Steve Bannon and others from the right are attacking Elon Musk and making it look like it's going to be dysfunction in the administration, I think that panics people that things are going to get done. And so we're seeing all those stories play out. So until we actually see the administration take shape, I think there's going to be a fair amount of uncertainty.
- [19:11]
Alex
One piece of good news I don't think is priced in is the fact that Cynthia Lummis is going to chair the Digital Asset Committee in the Senate. She's the author of the Bitcoin Act. I think that means we are very likely to have hearings in the Senate on the SBR on why it's a good idea. My view is that the most important part of the SBIR is actually not the amount of bitcoin that gets bought. I mean, maybe if it's a huge number, but if it's a huge number, that can cause problems for the dollar. But it is the United States signaling that bitcoin is a legitimate asset, that it's serious, that it's a strategic imperative. And, you know, Lummis chairing the Digital Asset Committee, I think basically guarantees that that conversation is to be had in public and produce a whole bunch of sound bites that could move the Overton window on how people think about Bitcoin.
- [19:58]
Scott Melker
That's 100% accurate. I've been saying sort of regard, obviously, in the face of the Silk Road selling right. That people are very concerned about with the DOJ right now, it really doesn't matter how much. It just matters that we say we do it. If there's 100 bitcoin left and the United States says bitcoin is a reserve asset on our balance sheet, we intend to add to and they Just don't for a long time. Doesn't even matter. They've said it right, Zach. I mean, that's why it just matters that they do it. Yeah. That what?
- [20:28]
Alex
We broke our executive order into like three parts for that reason. The first is just the legal establishment of an sb, which doesn't require any action other than President Trump saying so under the esf. The second one is moving any coins that we have into the esf. We'll see what we have into the sbr. We'll see what has left and then. And the third is buying. But I think honestly, that first announcement is probably the part I care about the most.
- [20:51]
Dave Weisberger
Zack.
- [20:52]
Scott Melker
Interesting sort of nuance with Lummis. She's very, very pro bitcoin, obviously. I wouldn't say she's anti crypto. She's pretty dismissive and she's even at times, I think, been critical of stablecoins in the past. So is this one of those things that maybe is very positive for bitcoin but not necessarily for the rest of the market?
- [21:11]
Alex
No, I don't, I don't like. Remember, Cynthia Lumis is also a co author of the, I think best, most comprehensive version of a crypto market structure bill we've seen.
- [21:20]
Scott Melker
Right.
- [21:21]
Alex
The Lumis Gill brand bill, which is, you know, creates the concept of these ancillary assets which would legalize crypto VC fundraising. I think she is broadly pro crypto. I think she understands bitcoin and sees it differently than she sees the rest of crypto. But I expect that a lot of things about the incoming administration will be positive for non bitcoin crypto assets.
- [21:43]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I agree. Go ahead, Alex.
- [21:48]
Alex
Yeah, I was going to say, I think there's also a chance we get the inverse of what we're talking about here, of just an announcement that doesn't actually have the buying behind it, the announcement of an sbir. And I'll put aside if it's just an executive action one since that can come from Trump solely, obviously. But in terms of something going through the legislature, legislature and going through Congress on it, the staking that we're gonna, that we think it's a reserve asset is actually the expensive part for the government. It's also the thing that is potentially risky and destabilizing for our financial system and currency in the US Overall. So there's also just the possibility that sort of the government continue starts accumulating or doesn't sell some chunk of the Silk Road bitcoins, but does so without actually saying we're going to make this thing a reserve assets, since that's the expensive thing for them. I don't think the politics point in that direction. I think if Trump is going to make that move, he's going to take credit for it.
- [22:48]
Scott Melker
Have we said, have we heard? Maybe we have. And I just have not been paying attention. Have we heard Trump himself say strategic reserve asset about bitcoin? Because at the actual conference in Nashville, he came up short of saying that. And then Lummis came out and proposed the actual legislation. He just sort of said we won't sell. Right.
- [23:06]
Alex
I think he said strategic bitcoin stockpile.
- [23:08]
Scott Melker
Was the phrase stockpile. That was the terminology that was used the first time. But I, I honestly, there's so much news and I'm sure we reported on it, but has there been more clarification on that since then? That was many, many months ago. To anybody? Yeah, I guess. I, I can't, I can't really recall either. So do we have an expectation then that Zach, if she is chairing that committee and we're seeing all this align, that this is a real first hundred days issue in your mind for that committee?
- [23:43]
Alex
100%.
- [23:44]
Scott Melker
Right. So the fear that crypto is not on the docket in the first hundred years, 100 days is maybe overblown. Because if she's carrying the.
- [23:54]
Alex
Well, I mean, look, there's a difference between the. The Digital Asset Subcommittee is going to be solely focused on crypto. Right. Like, and so they will be focused on it. Is it going to be a priority of the overall Congress in the first hundred days? That is still an open question. And then even if the answer to that is yes, the three big legislative priorities that are competing against one another are the sbar, a market structure bill and a stablecoin bill. And we don't know, you know, which, if any of those would get through, even if it is a priority. So, like, what's going to get passed into law is a more difficult, nuanced question. But I think safe to say the Digital Asset Subcommittee will be focused on crypto and will be focused on the sbir.
- [24:33]
Scott Melker
There's also an. I think today I saw Saylor was tweeting about it, but I was busy in Trump as well about maybe some more specifics as to what a committee would look like or what his intentions are with this sort of panel of experts that he's putting together to focus on crypto. Did anybody see that news? I'll dig deeper for it if nobody else has the quick summary. But he's definitely still Talking about it on, on a daily basis and still seems to be news. Speaking of Taylor, I don't know if anybody saw it, but if not, we'll move on. Speaking of Taylor, he bought another 200 something million dollars worth of bitcoin, I think at about $95,000. When does this guy run out of dry powder? Anyone? Is it indefinite money glitch here? I know he continues to raise money, but is there a time when Michael Saylor doesn't have the ability to buy hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars worth of bitcoin on a weekly basis? Dave, what do you think? I think there's. Go ahead.
- [25:30]
Alex
Good chance. I say good chance. The answer eventually is yes.
- [25:34]
Scott Melker
Yeah. Even, even if.
- [25:38]
Carlo
Our idea that he can't buy in January is out the.
- [25:40]
Scott Melker
Window, then yeah, I think, you know, I think January was sort of conjecture based on people's assumption of timing of the inclusion in the NASDAQ 100. But I think that I don't think it was necessarily pinned to January or if it's like a certain blackout period depending on when they're getting added. So maybe that could still be a thing. I don't know.
- [26:02]
Carlo
Yeah, just when I came off mute, a loud car went by. Apologies for that.
- [26:06]
Dave Weisberger
Yeah, I don't know why there'd be a blackout period around index inclusion. I mean the index inclusion event has nothing to do with, with microstrategy. It has everything to do with, with the index construction.
- [26:16]
Carlo
Do we have a date for that index conclusion? Because that's also going to be quite a catalyst, I think, who knows.
- [26:21]
Dave Weisberger
But I think I thought what I had understood, and I am not an expert, it was that he was done selling stock and now it's a question of loan proceeds from convertible debt issuance. And I still think there, there's room there. And you know, obviously, you know, it's. If your dollar cost averaging, you're going to do it every week, you know, it's, it's really. That's a, I mean the thing that I think people were concerned about was that he was doing bigger pieces. But you know, it doesn't seem like he's doing bigger pieces anymore. And so whatever his dollar cost averaging, it is what it is.
- [26:57]
Scott Melker
Yeah, but it's been aggressive dollar cost averaging. Right. What was the stat that we've shared it before but like to the first hundred thousand bitcoin took him six months or a year or something and then the last 100,000 at a much higher price and this was weeks ago, took him like two or A couple weeks. Right. So, I mean, this isn't, you know, he's clearly seen a major upswing in his strategy here and it's definitely given a lot of confidence to the market. So is there any fear that if he stops that the market loses some confidence or do you think that he's pushing through until we have these other catalysts, if we get an svr, it's not going to matter how much Michael Saylor buys on a weekly basis. Right?
- [27:40]
Dave Weisberger
Well, I mean, keep in mind that he won't be alone in terms of Treasury. I mean, MicroStrategy started as a Treasury based company, then he got the idea of doing convertible debt after he'd already established scale. And the convertible debt takes advantage both of scale and of monetizing the volatility. And so it's an interesting scenario. I mean, I just think that it becomes less and less important to overall bitcoin over time. And if it doesn't, then there's a big problem. And I think that's sort of where I think Zach was saying, while he's certainly a leader and will probably continue to be a leader for a long time, it's a question of the relative importance the community should get less and less. If it doesn't get less and less, then there's a problem. I think we all need to be.
- [28:34]
Alex
Prepared for the next. I'm not saying this will happen, but the next bear market narrative being all or a lot of the price action was just a combination of a bet on an SBIR that didn't happen and Michael Saylor buying and that it was all fake. And you know, bitcoin is not actually legitimate like we say it is.
- [28:53]
Dave Weisberger
Well, I mean, that's true, Zach and I think, but I think a hell of a lot of the people who are selling believe that right now. I've heard that from quite a few people. So I think that that that is the current fear. And you know, good mark bull markets climb a wall of worry and that's the big worry. So just take it, you know, as with a grain of salt, but understand that that is actually a very big deal. I mean, it's becoming the new China FUD really quickly.
- [29:20]
Scott Melker
Speaking of fud. Well, a great segue, Dave. I just happened to open this article, as I do while we're doing this show. You guys may recall that last year in Davos, I think that's basically a year ago, right, they had Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, out in the snow bitching that he was never going to talk about bitcoin again, lamenting the fact that people kept asking him about bitcoin, pissed off that he had to talk about bitcoin. Well, he's talking about bitcoin again. He did an article yesterday with CNBC with CBS News, and here's a couple quotes that I just saw because. Hilarious. So he said it has no intrinsic value. But here's the quote. In case you've never heard Jamie Dimon's takes on Bitcoin before, doubling down on the false ones that we know are not true. But here you go. We are going to have some kind of digital currency at some point. Not against bitcoin, not against crypto. You know, Bitcoin itself has no intrinsic value. It's used heavily by sex traffickers, money launderers, ransomware. Jamie Dimon said in an interview. And here's one that we've heard before, but maybe some of you have not. I just don't feel great about Bitcoin. I applaud your ability to want to buy or sell it. Just like I think you have the right to smoke, but I don't think you should smoke. And then came on to say blockchain is real. It's a technology. Thanks, Jamie. We use it, it's going to move money, it's going to move data, it's efficient. We've been talking about that for 12 years. Yeah. So anyone want to comment on Jamie Dimon doubling down a year later, still with the same tired fud that sounds like it's coming directly from Elizabeth Warren's mouth. Who? And she doesn't even seem to say this stuff anymore.
- [31:03]
Simon
Yeah, coming from Jeffrey Epstein's banker, of course.
- [31:06]
Scott Melker
How many times have we pointed that out? Yeah, listen, how many times has JP Morgan paid fines for money laundering or money used for criminal activity? It's billions and billions and billions of dollars. It seems to be on a yearly basis. But still, what's the angle here? Is this like Peter Schiff? You know, is Jamie Dimon so deeply entrenched in his feelings that there's no piece of evidence that's going to change his mind about Bitcoin? Or is he still parroting a narrative that has some political or monetary benefit to him? That's the question I wanted.
- [31:38]
Simon
Well, it's the structural. So if, if you think about JP Morgan's interest, they're one of the largest shareholders in the Federal Reserve. They created their own JP Morgan coin, Stablecoin, in order to do cross border transactions. They're one of the primary members of the bank for International Settlements in terms of. Through their shareholding in the Federal Reserve, which is testing a network of central bank digital currencies. JP Morgan is a shill for the Federal Reserve System, and so he seems to have been the last one. Whereas other organizations like BlackRock have said if you can't beat them, join them, build a position. It seems like his allegiance is to the Federal Reserve, the system that his organization created in the first place in order to steal the dollar and the benefits of the dollar from American people.
- [32:45]
Scott Melker
Anyone else have any specific thoughts there, Dave?
- [32:49]
Dave Weisberger
Yeah. You know, first they laugh at you, you know, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win. You know, winning, you know, in this particular case is I'm not going to fight you anymore. So what you're basically getting is the gradual movement from, yeah, this is just horrible to okay, well, whatever, do it. I don't really like it, but you know, I'm not going, not going to stand in your way anymore. I mean, I, I would be. I will go so far as to say that with virtual 100 certainty, JP Morgan will be offering in their brokerage division crypto trading services within a year. Maybe they'll be the last one. But it will happen already, don't they?
- [33:29]
Scott Melker
I mean, to some degree, I, maybe not in the brokerage side.
- [33:33]
Dave Weisberger
I'm talking about clients. When we have a new SEC chair and a new communication with finra and they stop because right now you, they forced every broker, dealer to, if you wanted to offer anything with crypto, to create a totally separate affiliate that has nothing to do with any of the licensed entities. That's how Robinhood had to structure it, et cetera. And that's why so few confirms have offered it. That's why Morgan Stanley even said they're going to start it with E Trade and form a separate affiliate. But it'll be a mainline offering within a year.
- [34:03]
Carlo
The big question is, when do we get Vanguard?
- [34:06]
Dave Weisberger
Vanguard will be forced. When Vanguard's forced. I mean, when every other broker. When offering bitcoin trading services is no doubt different than offering precious metal trading services, I mean, is Vanguard going to allow it? And maybe, maybe they just stay.
- [34:19]
Carlo
Do they allow.
- [34:21]
Dave Weisberger
I don't know.
- [34:23]
Scott Melker
I don't think so.
- [34:25]
Dave Weisberger
So maybe you don't get Vanguard and you know, then it'll be really interesting because right here, here's the thing. You know, economics is a wonderful thing. If your 401k platform is the only one that doesn't allow Bitcoin right now, quite a few of them. Them don't, most don't. But when all the other 401k platforms allow Bitcoin directly, then Vanguard will either change or they'll let money flow out. But until then, you know, right now none of them have it. I mean you could buy it in an ETF, in a self directed 401k. But you know, I don't know if anyone's checked their, their defined benefit plans or their defined or their, their option plans that they get. Most of them don't have it. And that is going to change. That's a very big driver that people don't talk about a lot. But you know, it really is about economics. You know, Vanguard will do what Vanguard's going to do and you can buy.
- [35:18]
Scott Melker
GLD on Vanguard, by the way. So obviously they offer the ETFs, but obviously not like they don't offer Bitcoin ETFs. So that's the corollary.
- [35:30]
Alex
Well, right now JP Morgan services about half of all the Bitcoin Spot ETFs and more. So they're already in the game. You just don't see them. They're behind the scenes.
- [35:44]
Carlo
Yeah, they're the authorized partner or whatever it's called. Right. Authorize something.
- [35:48]
Alex
They're a market maker.
- [35:49]
Carlo
Participant participants.
- [35:51]
Dave Weisberger
The authorized participant.
- [35:53]
Carlo
Yeah, Authorized participant, let's say. Yeah.
- [35:55]
Dave Weisberger
And one of the things JP Morgan.
- [35:58]
Scott Melker
Coin, I mean they use, as he says, I mean he admits this, they use the technology all the time. I mean one of the projects was at Kadena. One of those came out of JP Morgan Coin.
- [36:08]
Dave Weisberger
Keep in mind, one of the things that's been predicted, I can't remember who was talking about it a lot, is that one of the first things that will change in the new SEC is you'll be able to have the Bitcoin ETF move to in kind creation.
- [36:22]
Scott Melker
Esther Purse said it in an article in a interview with Zach Guzman. Creation and that Ethereum staking could come just to give people clarity.
- [36:30]
Dave Weisberger
So what does that mean? That means the authorized participants, in order to be competitive, will need to trade spot Bitcoin. That's what it means. Right now the authorized participants are trading in futures. And that's why the futures trade at a premium, full stop. So you look at the CME futures, they traded a premium. People are making money in the cash and carry trade. That's going to disappear when it goes to income creation because there won't be a need to use the futures and people who only have to pay a premium are going to lose money. Compared to those who don't World, I.
- [36:58]
Carlo
Wonder how the income increase is going to work with tornado cash coins. Well, that's probably not very well, that's interesting.
- [37:07]
Scott Melker
I had an interest, I had an interview, Dan, with Frank Holmes from hive, obviously one of the first publicly traded miner last week and he actually made the point non specific to that, but that they only. He was talking about why they don't take loans or convertible notes to buy bitcoin on their balance sheet. And he said very specifically part of their company ethos and he thinks will be very important moving forward is to only own virgin bitcoin.
- [37:32]
Carlo
Yeah. There probably should be a premium attached to newly mined bitcoin. And if you had newly mined bitcoin that were mined in the US using green electricity, I could see a point where they, you know, it goes against the ethos of what bitcoin's about, but I could understand why they would trade at premium.
- [37:50]
Scott Melker
Yeah, maybe Dan, for people in the audience who might not know, like, well, why does that matter? Like what, what does that mean? I said the term virgin bitcoin or green bitcoin.
- [37:59]
Carlo
Yeah, I can expand a little bit. I that obviously. Who is his name? Mr. Fantastic or whatever his name. The American guy. Yeah, Mr.
- [38:06]
Scott Melker
Wonderful.
- [38:06]
Dave Weisberger
Yeah.
- [38:07]
Carlo
He was saying I want all of my bitcoin to be mined with green and us. It just is the provenance of the coins.
- [38:12]
Scott Melker
Right.
- [38:13]
Carlo
They've come directly from the coinbase issuance. The actual, the term coinbase rather than the company coinbase. They have no history, they've not been involved in money laundering, they've not been through any of that kind of stuff. So I suppose in the sense that, and this is a known phenomenon even within physical currency, if you get two coins or in the US two notes and one's crumpled and old and one's nice and pristine, if you go and buy something, you're going to use the old note to buy.
- [38:40]
Scott Melker
Right.
- [38:40]
Carlo
You're going to use the old coin. So we do, even though they are fungible, associate some higher level of value to coins that are kind of nicer. Whether that plays out and whether we see that as a premium in the actual market, I don't know. That would be very interesting to see. I suppose that is something that's really new because historically that's never been there, I don't think.
- [39:01]
Scott Melker
As a side note, I don't know that this is particularly huge news, but definitely worth just mentioning because this just happened. BlackRock launches spot Bitcoin ETF on CBOE Canada. So now they will have access on CBOE Canada to the Blackrock spot ETFs. Steve, you're the ETF guy. Does that, does that matter?
- [39:23]
Alex
It doesn't matter a whole lot. It mainly hurts the people that are already in Canada offering it. What was it, was it 2019 when all the Bitcoin Spot ETFs were approved in Canada?
- [39:35]
Scott Melker
Yeah, they were ahead.
- [39:37]
Alex
It's such a small market, it doesn't really matter. But BlackRock will slowly take market share away from the incumbents and they'll win there like they win everywhere else.
- [39:47]
Simon
Does it mean it's priced in CAD though? Because that's significant for everyone putting it in their retirement funds and pensions in Canada.
- [39:55]
Scott Melker
Right.
- [40:00]
Carlo
The new premier of Canada is a bitcoin recently.
- [40:06]
Simon
Yeah, well I think, I think the important part is that when they get approved in each country in the uk, you still can't really put a GBP bitcoin ETF in your retirement fund at the moment while the regulators catch up. But you know, it's all about enabling because they obviously want to have these priced in the local currencies and so it, yeah, that's the, it just adds a bunch more capital.
- [40:37]
Carlo
But there are already, there are already Canadian traded ETFs.
- [40:41]
Scott Melker
Right.
- [40:41]
Carlo
And they have been for a while. I'm assuming they traded.
- [40:44]
Simon
I think they were one of the first.
- [40:45]
Carlo
Yeah, well I think the first were Swedish nasdaq. I remember buying that when on, before I got properly into bitcoin. My first exposure was through the Swedish NASDAQ and things there.
- [40:55]
Simon
I, I've still, I've still got that from. That was like 2017. So I ended up, when, when I left corporate I ended up with this self inversive personal pension and through Hargry's Lansdowne I was able to buy that and that was like in 2014.
- [41:10]
Carlo
But the, the premiums are very high on that. What you pay in management fees I think is quite high.
- [41:13]
Simon
Yeah, yeah, they're crazy. But Obviously the returns, 11 years of holding.
- [41:19]
Scott Melker
So.
- [41:19]
Carlo
Yeah, but yeah, I think Canada's had Canadian dollar denominated ETFs for a while, certainly before the U.S. so I don't know if it'd be that much of a game changer to have a Canadian dollar dominated ETF because they already exist.
- [41:31]
Alex
Yeah, both have existed and the Canadian dollar ETFs are mainly bought by people in Canada. The dollar denominated ones were mainly marketed to people in the US. I don't know if many people knew this but you could actually I could go into my brokerage account and buy a Canadian bitcoin spot etf. They weren't allowed to market it publicly, but everybody did. So I mean, three IQ actually hired marketing people in the US to go out and promote their, their ETF without promoting it. So yeah, it was quite. And now that, now that we have dollar denominated bitcoin spot in the us people have slowly moved out of the Canadian because there's, you know, additional taxes you have to pay to buy the, the U.S. poppers.
- [42:18]
Zach
Right?
- [42:20]
Scott Melker
Yeah.
- [42:21]
Simon
Also, I think Scott was talking about Hive earlier. If memory serves me right, the, the many of the, the early mining IPOs were all done on the Canadian market before the US market.
- [42:31]
Zach
Yeah.
- [42:35]
Scott Melker
Buzz.
- [42:36]
Zach
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Mario
We have a, a sponsor today. I mean, this has been a, a great conversation. It's, it's nice to hear everybody's thoughts and it's such a red day to keep us relatively optimistic. But Mario's company, ibc does marketing, incubation and investing. Sponsors on the show are sponsors working directly with IBC and not necessarily crypto Town hall and, or Scott specifically. And today we have World of Deepens. So World of Deepiens, why don't you test your mic and give a bit of an elevator pitch on what the project is.
- [43:09]
Zach
Hey. Hey guys. Can you hear me okay?
- [43:12]
Mario
Yeah, loud and clear.
- [43:14]
Zach
Nice. Nice. So good morning or good afternoon wherever you are. My name is Gazmund. I'm the PM of World of Defiance for those who don't know anything about us. World of Deepens is an MMORPG game available on Epic Games Store for download. But most recently it got listed on Steam Marketplace, which is the next step and bigger milestone for us to bridge Web two and Web three altogether. We have been leading the gaming ecosystem for the past year, right now being one of the top games in the market. But we are not just providing just a gaming platform. What we're trying to do is to build all in one platform, merging together four main pillars, as we call it, like DeFi, NFTs, gaming and AI. So we could give the best possible experience to not only crypto users and businesses, but also to the web two users and entities to join this world and go beyond traditional ways of generating more revenues or growing their brand in terms of business relations. So yeah, thank you for having me today.
- [44:31]
Mario
Yeah, happy to have you. And I appreciate the intro. The audience of this show is definitely mostly folks who are looking at the macro market at large. I'm sure a lot of listeners who are tuning in have seen different gamefi projects pop up or different Web three games. Maybe as we're starting the AMA here describe what makes world of Deepians unique compared to these other games or platforms that people may have heard of across the market.
- [45:00]
Zach
Yeah, more than happy to give like a short overview just for everyone to understand on what we are doing. So when we started, let's say working on the project more than three almost three years ago, we saw Gap into the market that there weren't a lot of quality gaming platforms so far. There were only play to earn and so on. And what we're trying to build is to bring the same Web2 enjoyable gaming experience to Web3 so we could bridge the Web2 and Web3 gap and bring as many Web2 users to the Web3 space. So this is one and stands as one of our main focuses. We have achieved that so really good during the past year. Right now being just sharing some stats about 900,000 daily active users and monthly roughly 2.8 million which is really, really huge for us and for a gaming platform. We are a multi chain platform so we chose to be that way because we didn't want to have any blocking point for the users to join our game. We are leading many networks that we are available on like BNB Chain, Taiko, PBNB Base, Manta Core, Vixen Scale and others as well. And we aim to expand into many different networks to not have, let's say those blocking points and to get everyone a chance to join our platform. Some of the major highlights is that we got included or featured two times in Binance research report, one in September and the last one in December on 31st of December being let's say one of the most contributors to the Web3 gaming space. And also we got featured on Binance Wallet under the BNB Chain ecosystem. So the idea is that we love to see that Binance appreciate what we have been building and what we are offering into the market so far to bring as many users as we can to join, let's say the web3 space and to have an enjoyable gaming experience. But not only that, because I mentioned before that we are not only providing gaming but also defy NFTs and AI integrated into our game. The main idea is that almost every week right now we got featured by CoinMarketCap and up other let's say reports as leading GameFi projects. Plus the recent launch on Steam Marketplace is a huge step for us after being launched on Epic Games because I think that there is a huge possibility not only in crypto users but Also to the web too as well.
- [47:57]
Mario
You mentioned being featured in two different Binance research reports and my understanding is that BNB Chain is also one of the backers of the project. Could you speak a little bit more towards who some of the other backers and investors are and also some of the other key partnerships.
- [48:15]
Zach
Yeah, for sure. So during the the last year we got we got more than 40 partnerships let's say or even projects that collaborated with us in many different areas. But want to mention that we one of our strongest and strategic partnerships is with BNB Chain as they have been helping us a lot during different activities, collaboration campaigns and many other things so far. Even let's say different partners that we have been collaborating with like networks that we integrated like most recently SEI Mod Chain. But also we even we launched let's say our own Token Wallet recently with Trust Wallet launch pool. Even some of other partners that we included are say some of the biggest projects let's say in the web 3 space so far and you can find let's say all of them in our website easily. But also we have been recently doing a lot of campaigns with them and a lot of new activities will come into the future.
- [49:26]
Mario
You mentioned the WAD Token wod. What's the utility within the gameplay?
- [49:33]
Zach
Yeah, very good question. So as I mentioned to you before, we are not just a gaming platform so we are trying to merge everything and the utilities of the token are really not focusing only on gaming but also they are on different parts as well. One of the main utilities of course is in game economy as what is being used to purchase, you know, different skins, NFTs or even can participate in different events within the game. So this is one of the main utilities. Another one is Defi. So we have integrated Defy into our our game so players or users can now easily stake their assets to earn more rewards not only to to our website but what we're trying to do and this is something innovative that we're somehow offering is to offer the in game defi integration so they will be able to stake their assets directly within the game without the need to go to our website or any different platforms. Another thing is that we have our own NFT marketplace where another utility for the world token is being introduced as players can now trade, sell, NFTs, buy within our marketplace we have our own governance that we launched where all of the players right now can decide for the future of the gameplay of the game itself by being let's say part of different decisions. Recently we announced the first ever Metaverse launch pool being launched in World of vpn. So this is another utility for the token. But also other utilities include world domain IDs which we have collaborated with space ID. And last but not least, we are using the WOT token in utilities for the fees and also different incentives and rewards for the users with the campaigns we host with our partners.
- [51:45]
Mario
If you look on Cato AI, which I've been using lately as a tool to kind of see what crypto Twitter is talking about, the AI sector has dominated the conversation not only just with Twitter posts, but even a lot of the spaces that we're doing. How are you guys integrating AI within the gameplay?
- [52:05]
Zach
Yeah, very, very nice question to be honest. And this is what we have been focusing in the past as we have implemented some AI features, basic one within our game. But this year we have a really good focus, especially with some collaboration with our partners to introduce AI further advanced AI within our game. And this means in many different areas. For example, one of the most important things is education and learning academy that we're building within the game. So Web two players right now that we will be listed on steam and every Web2 player can download the game. They don't know anything about crypto space, they don't know what blockchain is, they don't know what exchanges, what the token is, how to make a transaction, and so on. So what we're trying to do with AI integration within the game is that we get them onboarded step by step, not only in a simple way to watch a video or learn, let's say read an article or something like that, but we will have a museum and learning academy within the game that can give quests directly to the player so they can learn step by step, for example what a wallet is, what an exchange is, how to deposit, for example, what token on a certain exchange, and a lot more. And this will come in an enjoyable gameplay which will be also powered by AI. AI is also integrated within the NPCs on our game, which we will be, let's say, providing real time interactions to all of the players and help them within the in game journey to fight bosses and so on. Last but not, not least is that one of our NFT collections called Cats and Watches Society or Cows has been integrated directly within the game. So every owner of this NFT can have the the exact replica of it within a game and is AI powered which help the main character or the player within different quests within a game within, let's say to fight bosses or complete different events or challenges within the game. And a lot more so this year somehow focusing just to provide really good gaming content, but also to further enhance the AI advancements within our game.
- [54:43]
Mario
Wonderful. So being listed on Steam is obviously a huge milestone for any game yet alone a Web three game and probably a huge funnel for you guys to onboard people from web 2 into web 3. What other plans do you guys have to really accelerate that onboard?
- [55:04]
Zach
Yeah, you know, so the listen on Steam happened like a few days ago. So this was the one of the major milestones we achieved so far and is the cornerstone for what is going to come next. And we have some really exciting, let's say features or plans in our roadmap to further enhance our commitment for the Web3 gaming but also to our platform. We are going to release the multiplayer mode, the PvE and PvE events within our game to make a more connection to the players, to give that collaborative feeling to it, which will help the game even grow more. Especially from players that are coming from Web2 because they are somehow used to play or to have the same gameplay in web 2 gaming and why not to have it in web 3 again? But also we're gonna have some, as I mentioned before, AI advancements within the game. The main idea is that we are going to offer some exciting campaigns in the in the near future with some of the biggest name in the industry so far that are coming really really soon. We're gonna have some new exchange listing for the what token which also it's going to tie up with to increase what token utilities within the game and a lot more features related to education and Learning Academy which we are offering right now as a possibility to onboard as many users as we can to our game. And we have been doing this really good so far. We have a really good traction and hopefully we can grow even more this year. As the main idea is that we love what we we're doing in in the. In the gaming space. We have a lot of experience within Web3 but also Web2 space. We have let's say 26 people full time working within the project two headquarters, one in Romania and the other one in Albania, but also remote workers all around the world and we expect to grow even more during this this time.
- [57:21]
Mario
We have about 4,000 listeners in the space right now and as we're wrapping up, what would your call to action be for them that they can get involved in right now? I assume one is actually playing the game. I'd love for you to give an overview of What a user can expect if signing up and playing, but maybe taking a look at the token as well.
- [57:43]
Zach
Yeah, sure. So to every new listener or to everyone right now, in order to get on board in World of Defense, it's like in any other Web two games. We don't have any plugin point for the users to connect their wallet and to play the game. You just need to create an account using your email and password and you are free to play. Enjoy the gameplay and all of the features that we offer right now within the game. But also at the moment you want to get interacted in web3world like you get get to know step by step the web3 space. You can connect your wallet, purchase the dedicated skin or nft or even engage with our products that are somehow innovative into the space, participate in defi or even in decision making in governance. But also what is most important that the launch pool, the first one in Metaverse is coming soon and the experience is any other Web2 game. So somehow most of our community compares us with World of Warcraft, but in Web3 and that's what somehow what we're trying to build the same features to provide an enjoyable gaming experience to the players. In regards to the token, you can just let's say, feel free to use it and to enjoy the utilities within our ecosystem. You can get it on different exchanges like Kucoin, Mexc Gate, also on Packing Swap, but also on on Trust Wallet as I already mentioned that what token was launched by Trust wallet Launchpool, which gave us access to more than 160 million users worldwide. But also I will tell you to stay tuned on our official social media channels for the upcoming campaigns and a lot of more activities that are coming in the near future.
- [59:42]
Mario
Awesome. Well, if you're tuning in, make sure to give World of Deep Ins a follow their accounts up here with a nice gold check so you can click on their profile. And in their profile they have the website as well. I know that I was able to go on there and see a lot of the clips of the gameplay as well. And you can also sign up on their website there. So World of Deepens. I really appreciate you guys joining today. And just as a closer, I just want to note that IBC is hiring for writers, journalists and moderators. So if you're looking to join a really great team or if you're a project wanting to work with Mario or IBC, make sure that you DM Mario's account there. His team is watching the DMs all day. So if you're a project wanting to do an AMA just like the world of DPNs just did. Or if you're just out there looking for work and way web3 make sure to DM the account and they will certainly get back to you. So world of Deep Ins, I appreciate you guys joining. Make sure that you give them a follow. Give the other speakers a follow here as well. And I know it's a bloody Monday, everybody in the crypto markets, but hope everyone enjoys their day. And if you do need some time, take some time away from your screen because I truly do believe that we are still in a bull market and that there's green horizons not too far away. So thanks everyone for joining and have a great Monday.