← The Wolf Of All Streets
Loading summary
Transcript64 lines
- [00:01]
A
The bitcoin monthly candle is currently green for September, but it's only been about three or four days and Price just got rejected at a key level around 112. Now, we know that September is a historically bearish month, but 2023 and 2024 both had green September. Should we be paying attention to this seasonality or just look at the chart and think with our rational brains about all of the tailwinds that the bitcoin and crypto industry have in the United States? Here to unpack all of that and way more is my friend Ishan by Donni from Scribe. We're going to get into it right now. Let's go, let's go. Let's do Good morning, fine people of the wolf pack, if that's a thing. Don't know. But it is Thursday morning here. It's 9am and the summer doldrums seem to have continued slightly into the first week here of September. But as always, because crypto has become mainstream, we have a lot to talk about. I've got my good friend Ishan here to do it with me. Good morning, man. How are you?
- [01:18]
B
Yeah, doing great, man. How about yourself?
- [01:20]
A
I am, I am. Well, we got a lot going on. Sean and I have a lot going on behind the scenes that maybe you guys will hear about soon. But wanted to bring on him on the show because he's an awesome guest and has incredible insight and you know, if you guys are wondering his credentials and how I first heard about him, it was a long time ago. I'm gonna take back the OG right here, man. I'm sorry. Sean was the first person that I saw very, very publicly on X. Not only say that he was super bearish on FTX ahead of the collapse, but that he was going to massively short the token. So I saw a lot of scam. Bankman freed and FTX is a fraud. You were the first person that I saw very Openly hit a 1 of 20 thread here. Say I'm shorting the hell out of this broken thing and they are going under. So maybe we should start at your Spidey senses on ftx.
- [02:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. And for context, that was probably October. I think it was early October, October.
- [02:18]
A
5Th or something, I think.
- [02:19]
B
Yeah, I think exactly a month before everything went down. Yeah, I think I've just kind of. I think when you trade markets it's important to just have a little bit of like pieces of the puzzle around a thesis. And when you start to get that little like Spidey tingle or you know, I'VE always been a big gut guy and I think gut is just kind of like a culmination of things that maybe you're not able to articulate. And so, you know, you start to see all these different Spidey sense kind of things. Right. Top executives leaving and losing market share to on chain derivatives and you know, the amount of money that they're spending and you start to put all the pieces together and then that gives you kind of the impetus to dig in a little bit. And then once you started to dig in, it became a little more obvious. And so, yeah, then that led to a short, that, that went okay. And I think they're much lower than.
- [03:08]
A
Almost zero in this market.
- [03:09]
B
But hey, you know, yeah, I think you still might get the occasional pump on FTT every once in a while.
- [03:13]
A
But yeah, I think it sells like a 250 million dollar market cap or something absurd like that, which just absolutely boggles my mind.
- [03:21]
B
Yeah, I know a lot of founders who would kill just for that. But yeah, going from a couple billion to 250 million. Yeah, it wasn't a bad trade in retrospect.
- [03:31]
A
So I mean, you were at a fund, you were trading your own money. You've been through basically every iteration of the trading journey and then ended up at media npr.
- [03:40]
B
Yeah, not your, not your traditional, you know, journey, but I think, you know, my, my kind of thought has always been just like, look where the inefficiency is in the market. And so, you know, at one point the efficiency was trading. I think there's a lot of really great traders. Like I think crypto is a pretty efficient market. I, I generally have this thesis that crypto is where the frontier of market efficiency is going to be. Just because there's the lowest barriers, there's the lowest latency. And so crypto will always push the highest levels of market efficiency. So I think things that you see happen on chain are going to slowly trickle into like traditional media and traditional mind, like trading mindset in the future. But it's always just about like finding where the inefficiency is and finding, you know, where you can kind of leverage your skillset. And I think at one point it was trading in the trenches and doing defi and defi summer and and then later it was kind of building media and media relations in a marketing company and in the future, God knows what else, man.
- [04:39]
A
Yeah, so let's talk about what's going on in the market now. As you said, you always kind of, as a trader with that mentality, you create A thesis. You build on that thesis as you start to really see something coming, and then you act on it. So obviously we have our title here that Bitcoin rejected 112k. Will September remain Bullish? We take a look very quickly. I mean, bitcoin set to beat Red September dip for third straight year. It's literally September 4th. So sometimes I just don't know where these stories come from. But to the point, right, we have September. As you can see, until 2022, there are only two green Septembers literally ever. Now we have a 4% up 23 and a 7% up 24. Interestingly, when I read through this, they were floating the ETF approval as the reason that we've had green Septembers. But last I checked, there was no ETF in 2023. So I don't know. Once again, I don't know where these people get their ideas, but we kind of survived the summer, which was better than I think most would anticipate. Now we're in an environment where people are watching the Fed for rate cuts. They're watching all of the legislation and regulation that's coming, and bitcoin, treasury companies, right? And this kind of sustained, nonstop bid. So you can dig into any of those, and we can just take a bunch of directions here. I want thinking for the fall.
- [05:59]
B
Yeah, I'm more of a fundamentals guy, personally. And so I like to look at things from just like a fundamental basis. And fundamentally, I'm pretty bullish. You know, I think range bound is good. Not that I'm super big of a chart guy, but I think, you know, like, when numbers go up significantly, I think it's important to consolidate. And I think we're in this like, 108 to, like 115 kind of consolidation range, which I think is good. And I think it gives you a cool opportunity to just, like. I don't know, I think, like, general sentiment has been like, we'll get to 115 and everyone will be like, oh, we're going to a million bucks. And then that's probably a good time to like, you know, take some exposure off. And then we'll get down to 108 and everyone will be like, oh, it's so over. Like, we're going to zero. And that's probably a good time to put some longs on. And so that's always good. But I think structurally, from a fundamental perspective, I think the DAT inflows are just, like, incredible. I mean, Scott, you and I talked about this. Like, you and I are both seeing so many dats come and go.
- [06:57]
A
Companies now hold a million Bitcoin. So that's really shitty math. If they think that's 5% of the total supply because there was 20 million Bitcoin. Yeah, I think 3%, almost 5%, almost 4 point something percent. Since there's 21 million now, it's probably like 8 or 9% of the actual supply if you consider lost bitcoin. But it's just hilarious to me when I read things like that. But yeah, a million Bitcoin in Treasury companies and we know that most of them have not even gotten the green light to start buying yet.
- [07:27]
B
Yeah, and I think that's like Bitcoin is one. But like you look at Ethereum which is like what, a third of the market cap just about. And, and, and you look at like, I mean I, from what I've seen and what I've heard, I think there's probably about 15 Ethereum DATs that are coming in the next month. I mean the inflows are going to be incredible. And all of these guys are raising between you know, 200 to like a billion. And then there's your current dads that are continuing to raise capital and then you're also starting to see like the alt debt. Right. You saw Athena do one, but then you're seeing, you know, I've seen some binance ones that are going around which I think is like one of the better ones to kind of do. There's an avalanche one, there's a few avalanche ones that are coming around and so you're starting to go further and further out of the risk curve. But just giving public market exposure to so much sense.
- [08:16]
A
By the way, I had a conversation, it was yesterday or two days ago on Spaces with David Namdar, which is the, you know, BNB treasury company that actually we were kind of doing some stuff with here and you just can't get exposure to BNB as an American. So like you know, like, you know, everybody can buy Bitcoin at this point. There's a lot of these assets. BNB actually is really unique for a Treasury company right now because it's kind of like microstrategy was for Bitcoin before there were ETFs.
- [08:42]
B
Exactly right. You can't get exposure to it. Yeah, it's like what better? I mean crypto has always done exchanges really well. You know, you're talking about the number one exchange in the world with the largest market share and no one can get exposure to it. And so that one's always going to be great. And so you have this like structural underlying bid of majors and if majors go up, I mean I'm not a, you know, I'm not a big, I'm not super excited about the alt market, but I do think that's going to create pockets of outperformance and alts, right. So like, you know, I, I, in 2021 there was always a look for where's the beta. I think a lot of the beta subsided just because there's so much in the market. Right. There's just like millions of alts now versus then there were maybe thousands. But I think there's going to be some pockets where, you know, you see Ethereum start to get a crazy bid. Okay, well like, you know, a lot of the growth of Ethereum then leads to growth for Athena, right, Through the basis trade and through the stake deed that they hold and things like that. So then that's going to be really strong for Athena. And so Athena is going to get a pocket of outperformance. A, you know, you know you have a lot of these DATs that are looking to go further out on the risk curve and deploy in defi. And so a lot of what they're going to do is they're going to chase yield on aave, right? And they're going to do looping and stake deed looping and things like that. So that's going to lead to a pretty good bid for AAVE because their TVL is going to grow. So I think there's going to be some really interesting pockets of alt outperformance. But I think structurally throw a dart.
- [10:03]
A
And everything goes up.
- [10:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, I hope not.
- [10:06]
A
Right.
- [10:06]
B
Like, I just don't think that's there's just not enough capital in the world for just like there to be a million alts that all go up 10 to 20% every day. Like there was in passable markets, like the amount of capital you need for that for you know, a bunch of alts to run from 50 million to 100 million, from 100 million to 250 million. Like the, the capital size is just too large now. But there's going to be some really, really good pockets if you can kind of look and, and skate to where the puck is going.
- [10:32]
A
Let's talk about the treasury companies. You and I have joked about this on many occasions privately. Obviously. It's kind of a great thread here from Mark Moss, who was the person when I walked into bitcoin conference in Vegas who said bitcoin Treasuries are the next thing. To me, he was like, there's. And I was like, wow, I got pitched 20 of these things in the first 10 minutes. I had no idea this was all coming. But to his point, they've sold off here, 50, 80% over the last 10 weeks. And there's a great thread here from Grain of Salt, basically talking about how these will almost inevitably, unless the mechanics change, traded a discount. Like, which is funny because there's a sentiment that if you buy enough bitcoin, you're going to have this multiple to nav and people are going to want to pay a premium for your stock. As if. We never saw GBTC happen, which had its own mechanics, by the way, because you couldn't redeem. So that made a lot of sense. But I mean that thing was trading at a 50 discount to the net asset value of the underlying bitcoin. So maybe the proper way to frame this is. Do you think, think these are a risk or a boon?
- [11:37]
B
So I think it's actually like a really, really nuanced conversation, right? Like, I think people just like to like throw the big umbrella on it and it's like they're all going to fall, they're all going to rest. Like, I'm super bearish on mnav, right? But I think like Strat, what strategy did for bitcoin is really interesting, right, where like you have a company that has some cash flow and you're going to take a bunch of money and you're going to buy bitcoin and then you're going to raise more money, buy bitcoin, raise more money, buy bitcoin, right? And then bitcoin is just like this treasury asset for everything, right? And then you're ISS bonds in order to buy more Bitcoin. And, and like I think that is an interesting strategy, right? And, but if there's no underlying cash flow, that becomes really hard because there's absolutely nothing like, and, and, and most sophisticated traders are either going to A, you know, just buy the underlying themselves or B, they're going to do what we talked about, which is they're going to long the underlying and short the, the, the, the treasury company, right, and to try to compress mnav, right, and, and, and get bitcoin outperformance. And that's a trade you can put on in size and you can put that on in with leverage too, at least a little bit. And so that's not good for the underlying or sorry, that's not good for the treasury companies themselves. I think the Ethereum treasuries are I find a little more interesting because of the yield generation and then the use of defi and restaking. And so you can see a world where you have a 3 to 4% LST yield that you're getting from staked ETH and then you're using, using that to maybe loop it up a little bit or you know, in defi or you're restaking it and things like that. And then you start to see like a 7 or 8% yield. I mean like a 7 or 8% yield on a billion dollars is like $70 million a year in EBITDA or I mean not EBITDA but in total revenue. I mean that plus a underlying that's going up and obviously Ethereum being a, you know, kind of what, $400 billion asset gives it a lot more room to grow versus a billion dollar treasury.
- [13:32]
A
Company is a much bigger deal for Ethereum than a bit billion dollar treasury company is for Bitcoin.
- [13:37]
B
Exactly, exactly. And, and, and you know, and I think it's going to bring more institutions on chain which I think creates like this really interesting flywheel where it's like more people are holding eth, more people are doing things in the on chain ecosystem with eth. So the fundamentals for eat look better because total TVL looks better and total TVL and DeFi looks better and then you know, and they're getting more yield and it's getting more people involved which leads to more people buying more ETH and more treasury companies, etc. And so I think, and it just kind of spreads the gospel, right, of just like the Tom Lee gospel, right, where you know, Ethereum is like the future of Wall street and all finance is going to happen there. And I think that is a really interesting story. I think the Solana one is a little less interesting just because of the tokenomics of Solana and the inflation and the sustainability of that yield I think is a different story. But if you're like a Solana staker, I mean shit, like it's awesome for you, right? If all these, I mean a Solana.
- [14:31]
A
Treasury company can passively earn 9%.
- [14:34]
B
It's an incredible. But I think there's a lot more nuance there with the kind of tokenomics versus and the inflation of Solana rather than Ethereum which is like as long as the burn is there, it's going to continue to stick around 120 million ish. And so if not less depending on how much it's being used in Defi. So I think again, structurally and fundamentally, I think DATs are really good. And then there's the big kind of elephant in the room, which is like a rate cut. And so if we get a cut here in September, which I think is like kind of already in the books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so, and then once a cut happens, then you get the cutting cycle, right? Or at least the expectation of a cutting cycle. And then it's like, okay, well now capital is going to take out of bonds and, and you're seeing the 30 year still like incredibly high right now. So the, the Fed's in a little bit of a pickle. And so I don't think we're going to get like crazy cuts down to like 2 or 3% anytime soon. But I think as soon as you see a cut. Yeah, I mean, look at those numbers, right?
- [15:35]
A
It's 88% on poly market. I don't know what Fed funds, watches.
- [15:39]
B
But yeah, I mean, I, I'll, you know, I mean that's a, that's a great number. Right. And so I think once you get a cut, regardless of the future expectations of cuts, I think the market sentiment changes, right? And the market sentiment starts to say, oh fuck, I think we're going to start getting some cuts. Let me, you know, you know, take my capital and while I'm waiting for rates to cut so that I can buy a house later, let me buy some Bitcoin, let me put some money in ETFs, let me go further and further out on the risk curve and you know, maybe let me play some Poly market bets and stuff too. And, and let me kind of find where I can get better yield or. Because the expectation of future cuts, which leads to expectation that other people are going to start going further out of the risk curve. I think that's where you start to get to the banana zone that everyone's been waiting for. I think it's just, I think we're right on the cusp of it, so I haven't been bullish in a minute. I, I'm pretty bullish right now.
- [16:32]
A
Yeah, you echo the points I make a lot about the treasury company, so it's good to hear some confirmation of my thesis. I actually have said many times I find the All Coin treasury companies, even though I hate the name, it's just the All Coin hedge funds, right? They're not treasury assets. But if your goal is to beat an underlying asset that you consider to be the benchmark, that's a hell of a lot easier with an Ether or Solana than it is with a Bitcoin. That's basically the only point to me. I'm not saying that you should hold Kronos or whatever asset we're talking about for 100 years, like maybe you should Bitcoin. But if in the short term your stock goes up because you beat the value of the underlying, you just as to your point, you stake, you restate, you use defi, maybe sprinkle in some NFTs or something that are really high quality here and there. And Solana, there's a million ways. I mean, a lot of these guys are trading around their positions. As I said, they're hedge funds. You know, I call it a Treasury company, but they're doing all kind of carry trades and such to make yield.
- [17:36]
B
Yeah, I'm, I'm old enough to remember when the older version of this were like, of, you know, that like back in like 2020, 2021, you'd see a lot of founders do this with their Treasuries. They'd go raise like 50 million bucks and they would think that they were smart enough to just like be buying Ethan, selling eth and, you know, being able to trade the funds that they raised. And I think it's kind of a little bit similar to that. But yeah, I, I totally agree. They're basically like trying to be hedge funds. One thing you brought up is you brought up Kronos. I'm super interested in, in World Liberty. You know, I.
- [18:09]
A
Much to people's chagrin.
- [18:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:12]
A
I went on the news and I said, I think it'll do well. Like, with no particular passion about it. I wasn't like, I wanted to do well. I didn't get into the. And people freaked out when they saw the clip of me saying, I think that it'll objectively do well, but I don't think that that's controversial. When you have the president and his sons behind something with a financial interest.
- [18:30]
B
I think it's crazy. I think it's going to do incredibly well. I mean, like, if they can build a stable. Like, you know, Tether's always like the dream. Like, tether is of immeasurable value, right? Like, that is a. That is a hundreds of billions of dollars valuation company. Like, look at Circle, right? Circles. I don't know. I haven't looked at Circle in a minute, but it's probably between like 30 and 40 or something like that. If I were to guess in billion in market cap and you know, and you have like the Trump pump Premium and you have all of this stuff and then you have like all of the, I don't want to say chicanery but you know, all the things that they're doing, you know, they, they launched the token with a treasury already built into the stack. Right. And they're doing everything that is of value that can be accrued to the ecosystem. Yeah, the fully diluted is already really high. But from a circulating perspective I think this thing has some legs to do really well over a long enough time horizon. I think the Wyckoffs and you have the Trumps and the cto. Corey. I'm a huge fan of Corey. I invested in Dolomite. I think Corey is one of the sharpest minds in Defi and Dolomites their decks.
- [19:43]
A
Is that right?
- [19:43]
B
Dolomite is a borrow lending protocol. It was on arbitrary one of them.
- [19:46]
A
There's a Dex too. Right. What's the other one? There's two things that people are very bullish on that are a part of the world Liberty financial ecosystem. And my brain just says yeah, I'm.
- [19:54]
B
Forgetting the decks as well. But yeah, I think Dolomite's a great way to get maybe some smaller exposure. I'm an investor so I do want to caveat that but Corey's like one of the smartest minds in Defi in my opinion and, and him being the CTO and kind of running the show and it's like you have Stablecoin, you have a Treasury company like they're just playing everything really, really well and they have like there's no price you can put in crypto on regulatory arbitrage and you know, and that's like such a premium. And so like, you know, of course there's like a lot of like nuance or things that go within it. But I'm just objectively looking at it from an investment perspective. From an investment perspective I think like I don't even want to say fundamentally but I think it's going to find a floor pretty soon and I think once it does, I think there's a lot of room to go up.
- [20:50]
A
Yeah, I mean you can see the volume. This was the first day. Obviously that's the early investor. Some sort of unlock for some reason. I guess in the last 12 hours there was another. These are four hour charts. So it was another big dump. You got to imagine this finds a floor pretty soon as those sellers exhaust because the only people that even have tokens to really sell are the early investors here.
- [21:11]
B
Yeah.
- [21:14]
A
Whatever.
- [21:15]
B
There's no way the Trump family can Allow this thing not to work. They're so financially and name wise invested in this that it has to work. They have to make it work and they're going to be invested over a really long time horizon. And I think it's also just bullish for the industry, right? Like you have like some of the biggest names in the world that are just like so bullish on the industry and you have like Eric Trump tweeting like eth charts like, you know, I think it's all just, it's all good for the bags.
- [21:45]
A
Yeah, Interesting tweet here from Max Kaiser, which we've been wondering who's selling and how can bitcoin be going down when we have this persistent bid from treasury companies and others that we know is there. As predicted, 100,000 was the price whales would start to sell as bitcoin begins its transition from primarily a store of value to a medium of exchange. But you can see here that the average bitcoin supply held by whales is at the lowest it's been basically in seven years. So the distribution of tokens, which we've seen very transparently an 80,000 token sale with Galaxy a guy just yoloing 20,000 at a time off. We know that there are some whales selling. Those are pretty serious stat. We talk about sheer size of these guys wallets once they're done selling. You can't imagine there's much pressure left.
- [22:35]
B
Yeah, that's exactly. I, I think it's, this is like super, super healthy for a market, right, where you know, you have an incredible run up over a decade. I mean it's still kind of crazy to think about this much like this much growth in, in like a little over a decade or maybe 15 years tops. And you're starting to see it change hands. And I, I think like, you know, there's a psychological number there where people have, people have been saying Bitcoin 100k since day one and they hit it and then now they have billions and billions of dollars and I think right now they're getting off. They're probably going to go and buy their yachts and buy their, you know, all their fun stuff and then they're going to come back because they're going to realize like fiat debasement and you know, what do they say? Fiat has no floor, so bitcoin has no ceiling. Right. And it's all going to come back eventually or it's just going to change hands to people that you wanted to. People that are now buying today saying bitcoin a million Right. And that's just really, really healthy for a market.
- [23:29]
A
So I know that you're a massive hyper liquid bull. Yeah, you've told me. Maybe you can give the premise there. Because I think to be a massive hyper liquid bull means maybe that takes the shine off the centralized exchange conversation to some degree.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, so this is my general thesis. It's a little long winded. I've been trying to figure out how to kind of shorten this. But historically, where do you look for as the main price for bitcoin, Right. If you're pulling up a trading view, where do you look? You typically look on like Binance, right? You look at, you look at Coinbase and you're like, that's the price of Bitcoin today. My thesis is. And the reason for that is because that's where a majority of the volume is. Why is the majority of volume there is because that's where the arbors go, right? You're arbing against that, that number, right? Whatever the Binance price is, if I have, if I find a bigger number somewhere else, I'm going to, you know, sell over there and I'm going to buy on Binance. If I find a bigger, if I find a lower number somewhere else, I'm going to sell on Binance and I'm going to buy over there. Right? And so the reason why they become so dominant is because that's like the main global price that you think about, right? And so I think the hyper liquid thesis is that in a on chain world and in an increasingly on chain world, the, the latency of ARB is too high on binance versus another sex, right? Or Binance versus a, a, an on chain dex or derivative dex or something like that, or perp dex or something like that, right? Because if you want to take your money from one place and take it onto Binance, it takes. Right. Not seconds. Or you know, maybe if you have special trading accounts or you use like Talon and stuff like that, maybe that.
- [25:03]
A
Would basically be loaded with both assets in both places at all times. But at some point you still need to circulate them. I remember doing this with Litecoin by the way, from like Binance to Coinbase and must have been 2017 where there was a 5% difference. But it would take me so long to send one to the other, no matter how much I had that eventually it would go away 100%.
- [25:23]
B
And so, and so a lot of the hyper liquid thesis is where is the tightest ARB loop in the world, right? And again it's not just spot to spot, it's also spot to perp, right? And so you're looking at like where the perp prices and you're trying to loop against or you're trying to arb against the perp to spot price as well. So where do you get the tightest spot to perp arb and also where can you go from one central location that gets significant volume on both spot and perp and that has the easiest access to go anywhere else. Right. And the thesis is that that's hyper liquid, right? So in hyper liquid you're going to have between hyper liquid spot which is like known as unit or hyper unit and then hyper liquid, you know the actual exchange itself, the perp dex, you have an incredibly tight arb from spot to perp, right? Because it takes almost no time to go from spot to perp, right? It's in the same trading and like the same trading window, right. And so that's incredibly tight. But then when you think about how to go to the rest of the places on chain like hyper liquid being an EVM and the hyper evm you're going to be able to go to any other chain, right? You can go to Ethereum, you can go to any of the L2s, you can go to Avalanche and like the other EVM chains you can get to them instantly, right? Like absolutely instantly within seconds. And so that arb loop gets incredibly tight. And then you can also go to any of the sexes that you want from hyper liquid. Most of the sexes have deposit windows from hyper liquid now or you can go to Ethereum and then go to a sex which is also really quick. And so then the question is where's all the capital going to sit? And I think the thesis is that the capital is going to sit in farming opportunities or on borrow lend protocols or where you can get the best yield for your idle capital on the hyper evm. And so I was going to say.
- [27:05]
A
This hyperlink, I don't know that much about it. So with hyper liquid can you effectively just be sitting in your token position, your bitcoin or cash or tether, whatever earning yield and immediately trade with it even better, right.
- [27:17]
B
So there's the, there's hypercore which is the exchange, the hyper liquid exchange and then there's the hyper EVM which is like their smart contract platform and they're both basically the same thing, they're on the same blockchain, etc. And so you can be. And there's a lot of applications being built on the Hyper evm. So you can be sitting with your capital being farmed in the AAVE equivalent on the Hyper evm, getting your yield for your Bitcoin or getting your yield on your stables. And then as soon as you see an ARB opportunity, you can then immediately go and take it to an L2 or to the Ethereum L1 or to Avalanche or you can even take it to a sex and ARB against. And so then the thesis is the ARB loop is going to. Instead of what previously was, you're arbing against Binance, you're ARB against Coinbase. Now you're going to be arbing against Hyper Liquid because the fastest way to get to the next ARB opportunity is there. And so if a majority of that capital that was typically sitting in exchanges not doing anything is now sitting and farming and Hyper evm, then like that's where all the TVL is. You're going to see a ton of growth there. You're going to see a ton of applications coming there to use that idle liquidity. And then it's like your TVL goes up and Hyper Liquid volume is going up like crazy. And then you start to see binance levels of tvl. You see binance levels. Yeah, my bad, man. Yeah, it's a little.
- [28:29]
A
No, no, it's not on you. I just. It's if you guys actually dig into it. This is for professional traders and those actually try to make money. This is a much more efficient environment if you can be earning yield and you're circular within a single ecosystem and don't have to be taking risk and moving tokens around. I was literally utterly dismissive of Hyper Liquid, which was stupid because the token did well. It did well. Just the trading part was not on my radar until the whole James Wynn nonsense. I was like, how does this guy have multi billion dollar positions on some decks? How is the volume there? How is there that much liquidity? And then I started digging into it. There's actually much more liquidity there than even most centralized exchanges added together. And if you can do all these things, there's the same time, why wouldn't you?
- [29:15]
B
Exactly. And so to kind of put a bow on it. It's like most of the trading volume I think is going to go there and then most of the liquidity that's not actively trading is also going to go there. And so if that's where all the money is kind of where all the money is to be made, by the.
- [29:28]
A
Way, there's something we have to mention because we didn't when we randomly talked about World Liberty Financial, because yesterday Trump backed American Bitcoin, went public. For those who missed it, this is their mining venture and it kept gapping up so much that it had circuit breakers. So if you're wondering how much thirst there is for Trump adjacent investments here it is certainly on the public market. So I guess we'll see what World Liberty Financial does. But I mean this was like the launch of the century. It was, you know, even Circle wasn't getting circuit breaker. I think this went up 59 in a minute or something at one point. It was really wild.
- [30:04]
B
Wild, Wild. Yeah. I think what, what, what world, what American Bitcoin is for the US investor, I think World Liberty could be for like the global investor. Right? It's like, how do you get exposure to Trump and the Trump family if you're a, if you're in Taiwan, if you're in Korea and you're trading over there, you know, not many places to get exposure to like America.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Anything left? We got like two or three minutes. Anything I missed?
- [30:29]
B
No, no, not really. I think, yeah, I think, I think we hit most of it. Man. This is fun.
- [30:33]
A
It's funny because these are the like low news days, but this is still ten times more news than we had any given time two or three years ago. Yeah, good.
- [30:44]
B
Good for news cycles is good for businessmen.
- [30:46]
A
You got it, man. Well, guys, Sean's information is down in the description. You can and should and must obviously give him a follow. And we're gonna have to do this again soon, man. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective and waking up a little bit early in the morning to do it.
- [31:02]
B
Always anytime, man.
- [31:04]
A
Appreciate it, guys. Thank you. We'll see you tomorrow for the Friday five. Later.
- [31:08]
B
Let's go. Let's do.