Bitcoin Has ZERO Bank Liquidity - That's About To Change | Christopher Perkins

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Wolf Of All Streets

Episode: Bitcoin Has ZERO Bank Liquidity – That’s About To Change
Host: Scott Melker
Guest: Christopher Perkins (Franklin Templeton, formerly CoinFund)
Date: August 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the shifting landscape of institutional investment in crypto, the impact of regulatory clarity (especially the Clarity Act), the role of bank liquidity, and the future of tokenization. Scott Melker interviews Christopher Perkins, who details his transition from CoinFund to Franklin Templeton and reflects on market fundamentals, technology trends (AI, quantum computing), and narratives shaping the next crypto cycle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Institutional Adoption & Market Structure

• Perkins’ Move to Franklin Templeton
  • The liquid side of CoinFund has merged with Franklin Templeton, and Perkins is spearheading a multi-strategy approach including liquid tokens, private credit, and venture strategies.

    "That's our foundation. And from here, we're building...you need people that you trust to bring you in."
    — Perkins, [02:59]

• Surge in Institutional Demand
  • Despite poor retail sentiment, institutions are onboarding rapidly with market makers struggling to keep up.

    "Dude, I'm so busy right now, I can't keep up with the pace of onboarding. All these institutions are onboarding."
    — Perkins, [01:19], [06:07]

2. Flight to Fundamentals & Altcoin Valuations

• Shifting Narrative: From Hype to Utility
  • Institutions now prioritize fundamentals and utility over flashy narratives; mature “grown-ups” are entering the space.

    "Narratives are amazing until they're not. I think what we're seeing now in this market is a lot of grownups...where's the utility? Where's the fundamentals?"
    — Perkins, [01:34]

• Altcoin Survivors & Accrual Model
  • The connection between equity and tokens is blurring. Value accrual is central, with past "death sentence" of tokens-as-securities diminishing.

    "We're also seeing the line between equity and tokens kind of collapse when it comes to value accrual."
    — Perkins, [05:17]

3. Regulatory Clarity and Bank Liquidity

• Current State: No Bank Liquidity
  • Crypto markets were developed without bank liquidity due to regulatory hurdles.

    "We've developed this market to date with no bank liquidity — zero. Why? Because regulators didn't allow it."
    — Perkins, [06:58]

• Clarity Act as a Catalyst
  • A federal framework could unlock massive bank liquidity and trigger new inflows if passed.

    "If clarity passes and we have federal preemption for the first time ... I think it unlocks bank liquidity, ultimately."
    — Perkins, [06:58]

• Political Calculus for Crypto Regulation
  • Likelihood of the Clarity Act depends on political motives ahead of US elections; Perkins optimistic ("about 51% chance").

    "If we can get to a vote...it'll be very interesting because right now, if you're Chuck Schumer, you're looking at the elections..."
    — Perkins, [07:53]

4. Next-Gen Tokenization and Retail Access

• Tokenizing Traditional Markets at Scale
  • Expecting massive tokenization of equities and fixed-income. Perkins sees advantage in programmable, on-chain assets over legacy infrastructure.

    "Why would you pay for all the downstream fiat, custody and other garbage that we don't have to keep anymore? ... Canonical is like the obvious future."
    — Perkins, [14:41]

• Retail Participation
  • New market structures (e.g., pre-IPO perpetuals) enable retail access to previously exclusive investments; regulatory changes could further democratize finance.

    "Why is it that in this country you have to be rich to make money? It doesn't make sense to me."
    — Perkins, [11:18]

5. Technology Trends: AI & Quantum Computing

• Intersection of Crypto, AI, and Quantum
  • Emphasis on the coming technological “collision” of crypto, AI, and quantum computing by 2030 (“Q day”); initial focus on quantum resistance, but tremendous opportunity ahead.

    "Q Day 2030. And I'm like, what? It could be as early as 2030."
    — Perkins, [11:58]
    "That intersection is going to be incredibly valuable."
    — Perkins, [12:51]

• AI-Driven DeFi and On-chain Agents
  • Early days for agentic AI and commerce on chain; decentralization and open-source AI echo crypto’s principles.

    "I do think in time agents will transact on the Internet with things of value..."
    — Perkins, [21:50]

6. Crypto Market Sentiment and Cycles

• Current Market Sentiment
  • Crypto sentiment is “awful,” but this is historically a constructive entry for long-term gains as fundamentals improve.

    “Sentiment is awful. Fundamentals are improving... Very constructive.”
    — Perkins, [06:08]

• Four-Year Cycle Debate
  • The classic Bitcoin cycle still appears valid; institutional adoption could disrupt typical patterns, with BTC and ETH as primary targets.

    “This four year cycle seems to be somewhat in effect, as much as we keep saying it's over.”
    — Perkins, [16:47] "Usually your first stop is the orange token. That's for a lot of folks, because why? It has the longest history..."
    — Perkins, [17:45]

• ETH Differentiation & Layer 1s
  • Ethereum’s core strengths—censorship resistance, privacy, decentralization—are almost impossible to replicate; most other layer 1s will find differentiation through apps, TPS, fees, security.

    "Ethereum's difference, its core differentiator is almost impossible to replicate."
    — Perkins, [18:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Value Accrual & Token Design:

  "These instruments are converging. You have to look through very nuanced guys... Just a matter of identifying value accrual. That's what we get paid to do."
  — Christopher Perkins [05:17]

• On Meme Tokens & Narratives:

  "Memes are not dead because narratives will never die."
  — Christopher Perkins [15:42]

• On Quantum Opportunity:

  "Think of the amount of capital: if 2030 is the date for Q Day, how much capital has to come in the space between now and then?"
  — Christopher Perkins [13:46]

• On Institutional Entry:

  "All these institutions are onboarding. Right. That doesn't translate to stagnation. These guys are coming in to trade ..."
  — Christopher Perkins [06:07]

• On Fundamental Approach:

  "Focus on fundamentals, focus on value accrual. And that's how you win long term."
  — Christopher Perkins [23:31]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:59] – Perkins describes the move from CoinFund to Franklin Templeton
• [04:07] – Discussion on altcoin market performance, flight to fundamentals
• [05:17] – The convergence of token and equity value accrual
• [06:07] – Institutions onboarding, market makers overwhelmed
• [06:58] – Role of bank liquidity and regulatory clarity
• [07:53] – Probability and political calculus for the Clarity Act
• [09:40] – New tokenization models, Benji technology, and programmable assets
• [11:18] – Democratizing access to private markets for retail
• [12:51] – Impact and integration of AI, quantum computing, and crypto
• [15:42] – The enduring power of memes and market narratives
• [16:47] – Four-year cycle discussion and what may break the pattern
• [18:51] – Ethereum’s unique strengths and future outlook
• [21:50] – Convergence of AI and crypto: potential, but still early
• [23:31] – Current market climate and focus on value
• [24:49] – Quiet in the VC/TGE landscape; market cycles and windows
• [25:54] – Volatility and catalysts for upcoming market moves

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Additional Insights

• Venture Strategies Remain Core:
  Perkins emphasizes the continued importance of venture investing in sourcing future blue-chip projects, even in a quieter market.
• App Layer Will Decide Chain Winners:
  Ultimately, it will be the application ecosystem that determines which layer 1s break through long-term.
• Watch for Catalysts:
  Regulatory clarity acts as a market “unlock,” while macro/tech trends like quantum computing could rapidly reshape the industry.

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Bottom Line

Perkins and Melker paint a nuanced, fundamentally bullish picture: institutional demand is ramping, regulatory clarity (if achieved) would be transformative, and the intersection of crypto with AI/quantum is set to define the next paradigm. For now, as retail sentiment is low and market narratives falter, institutions are doing the work—setting the stage for crypto’s next phase, driven by fundamentals and real technological utility.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Crypto sentiment is terrible, but institutional demand may be stronger than ever. Today I'm talking with Chris Perkins about his move from Coin Fund to Franklin Templeton.

[Chris Perkins]

We'll have everything from liquid strategies to close end strategies, private credit strategies, venture strategies, you name it. It's time to scale.

[Podcast Host]

Why major institutions are preparing to enter the market.

[Chris Perkins]

Have you talked to any of these market makers? You should get them on the show. They'll say the same thing. Dude, I'm so busy right now, I can't keep up with the pace of onboarding. All these institutions are onboarding. These guys are coming into trade by the next cycle.

[Podcast Host]

Will be driven by fundamentals, not hype.

[Chris Perkins]

Narratives are amazing until they're not. I think what we're seeing now in this market is a lot of grownups are entering the space and they're like, dude, where's the utility? Where's the fundamentals?

[Podcast Host]

We also discussed tokenization, the Clarity act, AI, quantum computing, and whether beaten down altcoins can finally recover. Are institutions buying while everyone else has given up?

[Podcast Co-host]

We're going to find out in this amazing conversation.

[Chris Perkins]

That's dope. That's dope.

[Podcast Co-host]

How's it feel to be a suit now here, corporate, corporate guy again, I

[Chris Perkins]

don't think that that's fair. But these guys, it's like when I came to Franklin, I'm like, you know, I need a couple things to Operate. Because, like, we've been full D Gen for five years, and I'm like, I need telegram. They're like, this would be tough. I said, I need telegram. So done. They got it.

[Podcast Co-host]

Done.

[Chris Perkins]

So I need to tweet. Say we have corporate policies, and I need to tweet. They said, okay. So, like, they. They're more D Gen than you think.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Chris Perkins]

Through a class laser.

[Podcast Host]

I remember they had laser eyes.

[Chris Perkins]

You know, they understand what's at stake, and they're awesome. They've been amazing.

[Podcast Co-host]

So talk about the move, obviously, for context. Coin funds. And effectively, the liquid side has gone to Franklin Templeton. Is that accurate?

[Chris Perkins]

100% accurate, yeah. And so that's our foundation. And from here, we're building. Look, you got clients all over the world that are saying, I have risk. If I'm not in this space. My board is asking me why I'm not in this space. There's something here. I need a trusted agent to take me through this. This area that I just don't understand. And, like, it's funny, you always talk about how crypto is trustless, permissionless, but you need people that you trust to bring you in. And so, like, what. Our job is to drive differentiated returns for our institutional clients, help them navigate. And.

[Podcast Host]

And that.

[Chris Perkins]

That's what we're here to do. It's. It's. It's insane. The amount of opportunity, is that strictly

[Podcast Co-host]

through liquid tokens at this point, or is it a diversified strategy?

[Chris Perkins]

No, we'll have everything from liquid strategies to close end strategies, you know, private credit strategies, venture strategies, you name it. It's time to scale.

[Podcast Co-host]

So more broadly, I mean, how do you think about the existing altcoin market and the tokens that have been here for a while, which I'm sure you hold a ton of. I hold a ton of. It's been a pretty rough four or five years.

[Chris Perkins]

It has. But what are we seeing? It's a flight to fundamentals, right? Like, we were never the type of folks who wanted to go chase the shiny new toy. You know, narratives. End narratives are amazing until they're not. And I think what we're seeing now in this market is a lot of grownups are entering the space and they're like, dude, where's the utility? Where's the fundamentals? And, you know, hopefully, you know, leveraging our discipline that we take from tradfi to begin with. You know, before crypto, we were in TradFi, and now we're still able to take that stratified discipline to find those Fundamentals. And that's where we want to direct our clients. It's. It's pl. It's. In a ways, everything's changed. In a way, nothing's changed. That makes sense.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. So is your view that the ones with good fundamentals that are beat down and have existed for a while still can catch a bit, or is it time to look for new shiny things that are maybe crafted in a way to take advantage of having fundamentals? Hyper Liquid, for example.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

I mean, that's been the biggest mover and people can point to exactly the burns and the tokenomics and the structure and they can understand why it would go up. I don't own any, unfortunately, but they can understand why it would.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah, look, I think you have to be. Each project you have to look through a very nuanced. And Hyper liquid is a great example. Like, is there value accruing to the token? We're also seeing the line between equity and tokens kind of collapse when it comes to value accrual. You know, years ago, people, I'm just going to do with the token. I want the token. Now people are like, oh, I just want the equity. I want the equity. The point is, is that these instruments are converging. You have to look through very nuanced guys. And by the way, in the back in the day, if you were an equity or security, it was a graveyard. It was a death sentence. Now it's not like that. And so, you know, as. As we look at, it's just a matter of identifying that value accrual. That's what we get paid to do. So it's interesting. Hyper liquid, amazing projects. There are others out there and yes. Is it. I think it's a very interesting time, very constructive time. Because sentiment is awful. Awful.

[Podcast Co-host]

Atrocious.

[Chris Perkins]

Fundamentals are improving. You know, we got Clarity act coming. We have institutional buyers coming in the space. You know, have you talked to any of these market makers? You should get them on the show. They'll say the same thing. Dude, I'm so busy right now, I can't keep up with the pace of onboarding. All these institutions are onboarding. Right. That doesn't translate to stagnation. These guys are coming into trade, they're coming in to buy things. And so again, really awful settlement. Improving fundamentals. Very constructive.

[Podcast Co-host]

We have a thin liquidity market and they're all coming in to buy things that mean they haven't started yet. Because you'd imagine you'd see that in the market if the market makers were that busy. And everybody was coming in to buy. I'm not saying I'm not doubting. I'm just wondering what they're waiting for. Right. Those clients that are getting onboarded, if they're here to buy, this seems like the time they'd start doing it heavily if they believe that bull market's coming.

[Chris Perkins]

Remember, as well, we've developed this market to date with no bank liquidity zero. Why? Because regulators didn't allow it. The capital is way too high, and they don't have the appetite to go get regulated in every state. Right. If clarity passes and we have federal preemption for the first time. You know, I talk to the banks all the time, like, they're not against clarity. They actually love it. They're annoyed with the interesting, but they're like, hey, once this thing hits, this is an environment I'm used to operating in. There's one federal regulation. I'm going to go pedal to the metal. If we don't get Clarity, they're still going to build. It'll be a slower buildup, but clarity happens. I think it unlocks bank liquidity. Ultimately.

[Podcast Co-host]

You seem optimistic.

[Chris Perkins]

How can you not be, Matt? I think this is what we do.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay. About Clarity passing. I'm very optimistic about the market. I'm relatively pessimistic, I guess, although I've gone from maybe 5% chance to 20% chance.

[Chris Perkins]

Interesting. I'm in the 50s, so probably like 51%. Speaking to some folks in D.C. yesterday, it looks like we finally got something around ethics, which is the big holdup, because it's politics. It's political season. If we can get to a vote, it's. I think it'll be very interesting because right now, if you're. If you're Chuck Schumer, you're looking at the elections, midterms, you want to take back a majority. It's going to be hard, but it's doable. And these races are so razor thin. If there's anything that pushes the election in any jurisdiction in one direction or another, you care. And so I think there's a lot of math going on right now, electoral calculus, if you will, that's going to really factor in. Because, look, like it or not, fair shake has been very effective in the past.

[Podcast Co-host]

I would say it's not even just electoral calculus. It's knowing where the money might land just ahead of midterms to push it in one direction or another.

[Chris Perkins]

It's the reality of the world we live in. And, yeah. So if we get to a vote, things could get really interesting.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, I think. I don't know what day this will come out, but Polymarket obviously saw a slight swing when the White House submitted their own ethics language. We'll see what that means. But the real swing wasn't in. Will it pass? It was. Will there be a vote by August, the real swing on Polymarket went up almost 80%. I think that now there's at least optimism that it gets its moment.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah, yeah. That's what we're waiting for. I think that'll be an unlock either way.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, so what are you excited about in this market? I mean, we can talk about broadly the trends and altcoins and all this, but are there specific narratives that you think that you can get hyper focused on and make a killing?

[Chris Perkins]

God, I think it's a matter of listening to the demand out there and we're seeing it. We have this thing. Let's talk about Benji. Technology, Right. You've heard of that this time?

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, of course.

[Chris Perkins]

This is a story of Crypto101. This is what we should be doing. You take a very basic strategy, like a money market, right? Very basic. What's there to get excited about that and leveraging technology, you're able to integrate intraday yields, you're able to intake 247 liquidity, transferability. If our technology allows us utility. I mean, that's what we're here to do, is to take technology, the crypto technology itself, to give this new utility. The amount of demand we're seeing for these capabilities is off the charts. Equities. Let's talk about equities for a second. Everyone's hot into equities right now. $127 trillion market, right. I'm a fiduciary. I choose either a token or non token. I'm buying that token all day long. So I have to. Trump invades Venezuela on a Friday night. I got to risk manage my position if there's enough liquidity. So that's kind of like here and now. What's the future? You know, we have $145 trillion fixed income market. How much of that's been tokenized? There's so much happening and the sophistication of traffic. Crypto natives love to look down in certain cases. I saw. We've all seen it. But they bring a lot of sophistication, particularly when it comes to scale. And as you bring that together into our markets, it's a very good thing.

[Podcast Co-host]

Do you think that that will be investable by retail or do you think it'll be captured by the institutions within their own wall coins.

[Chris Perkins]

I think that's the beauty of crypto. Like, you know, we're going to start chipping away at this, this private market. So 80% of companies in the United States that are, that are over 100 million are private. So like retail can't, can't get access. You know, that's the beauty of pre IPO perps. Finally, retail can get their hands on these things that have been reserved for the accredited guys. I think Atkins is definitely going to go out. Chairman Atkins is definitely going to go after those rules. He hates them. I could tell. Why is it that in this country you have to be rich to make money? It doesn't make sense to me. So I think that's going to be very much in scope and everything. I'm talking about equity market, fixed income markets. I think you're going to see programmability, even being able to trade in lower size. That opens up, you know, this way to leg into these new instruments, get retail up to speed. Of course, like, then you got AI where, okay, I don't understand these disclosures. Nobody understands them. Not a lawyer. But you can start understanding disclosures more effectively. What else am I excited about? If you think about where we stand today, you have crypto, which is a defining technology. I think it's huge. Right? I've been in this space for five years. You're putting things of value into the Internet that we never had before. Pretty awesome. You got AI hitting us right now as well. And you see how open source models are starting to take off. This rhymes with crypto. That intersection is going to be incredibly valuable. But the one thing no one's talking about is quantum. They're talking about it in resistance. I've been spending some time with some of the top researchers in the world. They're like, dude, Q Day 2030. And I'm like, what? It could be as early as 2030. And yeah, the initial focus is on quantum resistance and defense. And that obviously comes together with crypto. But what's going to happen when we pivot that, compute on its head and start launching applications to get those three technologies hitting us all at the same time? Pretty amazing time to be alive.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. Everybody's been so heavily focused on the risks of quantum now it blows everything up. But yeah.

[Chris Perkins]

And what about the opportunity? Right. No one's talking about that. So started to really see some really smart people starting to think about that direction. That's one of the next things.

[Podcast Co-host]

The only other person I've Heard talking about it is Sandy call from Franklin Templeton.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Chris Perkins]

Did she just say it recently? Very.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. See how excited that Quantum was an opportunity and the two of you are the first people who have really put that on my radar. There's just been so much. I mean, fear mongering, negativity. It all sells, obviously.

[Chris Perkins]

Think of the amount of capital if 2030 is the date for Q day. How much capital has to come into space between now and then? Public capital. Like, I mean probably you're going to end up in a situation where governments will have to really control that stack. It'll be regulated. It's kind of like an AWS in a way where other applications would build on anyway. Early days for that one. But it's going to come quick.

[Podcast Co-host]

There's sort of multiple paths to tokenization right now. And you know, I had a conversation with Carlos at Securitize for example. You know, obviously he's into some degree talking his book. But there's the DTCC tokenize everything, but it's just an update of our own technology and really stays within that system. And then there's the external tokenize everything, you know, which gives everybody broad access. It seems like there's sort of competing paths to where it lands. Maybe there's parallel.

[Chris Perkins]

No, there's no competition. There's like one product superior. One product's not. Why would you pay for all the downstream fiat, custody and other garbage that we don't have to keep anymore? Like digital twins? Don't make sense full stop. Canonical. Canonical does. Now people will say, but canonical is scary because what happens if the North Koreans come in and take it? And that's a legitimate concern. But guess what? What happens is if the North Koreans come in and take the digital twin, they've already swapped it into Bitcoin. Someone's out of money anyway. It's the same problem. Right. So don't tell me security is a reason to favor the old. We need to come up with obviously.

[Podcast Co-host]

Great.

[Chris Perkins]

And we have transfer agents in both that can track who owns what. So I think canonical is like the obvious future. It's more efficient, cost effective.

[Podcast Co-host]

Is there anything in your mind when talking about previous altcoins and the cycles as we did before that is dead. So we can't all believe that everything's going to be.

[Chris Perkins]

Memes are not dead. Memes are not dead because narratives will never die.

[Podcast Co-host]

Meme conceptually. But most of the meme tokens I think are probably dead in my opinion. The previous cycle.

[Chris Perkins]

I agree. Look, what's going on with Robinhood right now.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, but those are new meme tokens. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I agree that the narrative is not dead at all, but I think if you memes from four years ago, they caught a bid and went to zero. Probably not coming back.

[Chris Perkins]

Some memes are hanging out. Right. I think my point is that memes don't die because narratives don't die.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Chris Perkins]

Are they the. The greatest opportunity for long term, you know, investments? I would beg to differ on that one. But, you know, are there, are there things that are dead? Yeah, look at your fundamentals. Like, we know we're things with no fundamentals generally go to zero over the long term. Some stick around for a while. The thing you need to think about when, when you're looking at opportunities is narratives are great until the narrative is over. And I think right now, you know, in the AI space, a lot of people were chasing that shiny new toy. They were chasing that narrative. You know, after a while you got to start, the narrative stops and the fundamentals begin. And if you have those fundamentals, you're great.

[Podcast Co-host]

What about bitcoin in general versus the rest of the market?

[Chris Perkins]

I feel very constructive right now. You know this. I would love to get your take, Scott, you've been watching. This four year cycle seems to be somewhat in effect, as much as we keep saying it's over.

[Podcast Co-host]

I feel like an idiot.

[Chris Perkins]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay. So I did at least listen to people who said that that was true. I would always have like Ben Cowan on my show and he would tell me about the cycles and, you know, but I was definitely in the no more four year cycle camp, like very, very, very vocally. But I think I still consider the reasons that I thought that valid because the previous cycle didn't look like the other ones on the way up. So I didn't think that it would look the same on the way down. But listen, if we stop here, it's much shallower downside, just like we had shallower upside. So I'm fine with that. But if we just go up mid October or whatever the date is, I will concede, I don't know yet. You know, like. Yeah, it certainly looks like it.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah. And that narrative seems to be somewhat in effect. What will throw that off maybe is some of this institutional adoption that we're seeing. And look, if you're coming to the space for the first time, usually your first stop is the orange token. Right. That's for a lot of folks, because why it has the longest history. You can look at. You can run risk models with over 10 years. You can do the same for Ethereum. Others will eventually catch up. When I was in TradFi, 10 years of risk battered as you run through your models. So I think it's constructive setup. And you also saw during the previous cycle with gold was that you saw a lot of people want to decouple from the US So what did they do? They dumped treasuries and they bought gold. Who was doing this? This was the guy who run. Governments are 70, 80 years old. Right. And then the bitcoin people are like, wait a second, the narrative's breaking down. It's like nothing to do with that. It's like the old guy at X and X country was mad at the US So he dumps treasuries and buy gold. No, the narrative's fine, guys. And we've also, we've seen throughout a lot of bitcoin's history that it tends to follow the price of gold. So I feel. I feel constructive here.

[Podcast Co-host]

How about Ethereum?

[Chris Perkins]

I've been a big fan of Ethereum for a long time. And like I'm telling you, people like to dunk on it. Ethereum's difference, its core differentiators, almost impossible to replicate. And the EF came up with this thing called crops and it got mad at the ef. Crops, censorship, resistance, privacy and being truly decentralized. That's its edge. They have over a million validators. Name another layer. One that's going to wave its magic wand and have a million validators. So it's not everything to everyone, but it does have its differentiation. Now the next question is, what about my token? When's it going to go up? Right. I think, frankly, based on the way it's designed, it really comes down to activity. And we will see. We've seen some green shoots of activity.

[Podcast Co-host]

But it's interesting that Vitalik leaned into crops so hard, because I think even when he did, people laughed at it. They were kind of like, we want to see faster, cheaper, and TVL and memes and NFTs what's going on. Right. And he kind of said that that was their edge. He also said the Ethereum foundation would sort of just be another node and back off. And I think he kind of really, you know, showed that he meant it.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah. What I think is cool about it is that if you are decentralized, like, why are people so obsessed with the ef? Like, it's a nonprofit that has a view. I now, what are we seeing? We're seeing multiple nonprofits probably. I'm a vet. Right. In US in the US we have 60,000 military veterans. Charities or non profits. Like why wouldn't you have multiple non profits doing different things? Like this guy wants to figure out how to drive accrual to the token. Okay, great. That's, that's just, you know, it's just growing through growing pains.

[Podcast Co-host]

And what other layer ones excite you?

[Chris Perkins]

They all have really interesting, different narratives. Like Solana's making some interesting progress on the tokenized equity side, you know, hype we talked about. Canton just met with those guys. You know they've really done a really good job of truly getting institutional buy in and adoption. So like they're all doing their thing right. And we'll see.

[Podcast Co-host]

But you think they can all find. I mean there's a lot we didn't mention, right? A lot of them. There's a long tail there.

[Chris Perkins]

I'm sure I didn't mention someone and someone's mad at me but like they are all doing their thing. I think they'll differentiate in time. How do you differentiate as layer 1 TPS security

[Podcast Co-host]

and

[Chris Perkins]

there's a bunch of different ways and fees and so each will optimize for its own outcomes. It's all about the apps and we'll see where they go.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, that makes sense. How about the convergence of AI and crypto? We kind of talked about it before broadly. But how do you actually see that playing? I mean I know agentic trading and agentic AI seems to be the consensus as to where that's going to happen. How do you see that?

[Chris Perkins]

We seem early there. We seem early on agentic commerce on chain. It's a nice narrative right now. It hasn't been backed by real shattering fundamentals but I think there's something there and it's something to watch. Do we want to be in a world where AI and models and weights are essentially controlled by to private companies? Maybe not. So there is definitely a trend towards decentralization. Decentralization of part of the stack, open sourcing of the stack. So everything from infra to applications, there's something there and I do think in time agents will transact on the Internet with things of value and they're going to be acts to grow that value. So I feel that that is a value accrual layer that, that people need to be focused on even id like you know, how do I prove that I'm a human? So there's, there's projects that focus on that as well.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay. Not financial advice and not as a representative of Franklin Capital and crypto. Someone gives you a million bucks right now, where do you invest it?

[Chris Perkins]

You're going to get me in trouble. So I can't answer. You can't answer that.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, 2 million bucks.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah, well, I'm institutional. We got to go higher than there.

[Podcast Co-host]

100 million bucks.

[Chris Perkins]

So I'm investing in Franklin Templeton.

[Podcast Co-host]

Best answer ever. I wish I could get it because, you know, like, I feel like. And I've been wrong about this a lot. So I guess the answer, you know, a year ago when everyone thought AI had topped was just keep buying AI or whatever it is. But broadly, I find trouble right now finding individual things that I really like and don't feel like are on the edge.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

And crypto's beat down, so I like the.

[Chris Perkins]

I like crypto speed down. The shiny new toy isn't a shiny anymore. It feels like it's starting to lose its luster. So focus on fundamentals, focus on value crew. And that's, that's, that's how you win long term.

[Podcast Co-host]

I mean, what other narratives are you watching right now?

[Chris Perkins]

I think, I think I told you covered them. You know, crypto, fundamentals, AI, crypto. That intersection remains fascinating. And then really starting to look. This is maybe not liquid side, but how does that intersection between quantum and crypto and AI, because quantum's accelerating because of AI, and so there's definitely value being starting to be formed there. So there's something on the horizon there.

[Podcast Co-host]

Will you still be doing vc?

[Chris Perkins]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Vc. Venture strategies, if you're in our space, is so fundamental. You need to be out there meeting the top projects, the top founders, learning about the big ideas that are going to shape the future of the markets. By the way, a lot of these guys, they have tges around series A or so, and that feeds nicely into other strategies. And so it's a fundamental. These are not like venture strategies, are not like the most scaled strategies in the world, but they're truly fundamental to everything you're trying to achieve. If you're running a crypto practice. Very, very important.

[Podcast Co-host]

Are there broadly many that you see coming to market that are exciting? It seems very quiet on projects. Yeah. I mean, listen, like 20, 21, there was a TG, you know, TG an hour. It was how many baby, baby babies were being born in the world on a given day? Right now, I don't really hear about it very much since everybody is scared to do anything in the market.

[Chris Perkins]

Well, I mean, look, even the IPO market People are like, wait a second.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, they stop.

[Chris Perkins]

They stop because, you know, there's. They have been able to retain a lot of value in many spaces. So I think the market oftentimes dictates when the windows are open. When the windows are closed, they open and close for different reasons. So not seeing a ton of tges coming to market now. But look, it's a long game, man. You know that.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. Well, I think we're bottoming. I really have felt that way since February. Since the first time bitcoin kind of went down to 60. My thought was six to nine months of super boring.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Guess we're, you know, more than halfway into that prediction now. And it's been super boring.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

And I really feel like this is where the opportunity lies, even if it goes lower.

[Chris Perkins]

The thing is, is like we're always. Crypto is a volatile asset and that volatility works in both directions. And we're always like one catalyst away from it, from it either inflecting up or inflecting down. And it usually does so asymmetrically. So there's a couple of catalysts on the horizon. Like we get a surprise on clarity. Markets will respond favorably to that, I think. But there's downside shocks that could come too.

[Podcast Co-host]

We have always something.

[Chris Perkins]

Yeah, for sure.

[Podcast Co-host]

All right, man. I appreciate you, brother. Thank you so much. Always great to have a conversation.

[Chris Perkins]

Very cool. Love this picturesque.

[Podcast Co-host]

It's gonna be pouring soon, which.

[Chris Perkins]

Exactly.

[Podcast Co-host]

Awesome. Thanks, man.

[Chris Perkins]

Good to see you, brother.

[Podcast Host]

Today's video is sponsored by Securitize. You've heard the word tokenization. Putting assets like funds, bonds, treasuries and stocks on chain. Securitize is the regulated infrastructure the biggest names in finance build on. They're the tokenization partner for BlackRock's on chain. Treasury Fund bidl working with new York Stock Exchange, Vaneck, Hamilton Lane and Apollo. SEC regulated entities. Nearly nine years running, most money still moves through slow decades old systems. Securitize puts the real asset on chain itself. Not a synthetic, a wrapped token standing in for it. And regulated in the United States. It's the institutional grade bridge between traditional finance and crypto. They didn't just build it, they just proved it. Listing their own stock on the New York Stock Exchange and simultaneously tokenizing it on chain on Solana and Avalanche. They're the first and only public company built entirely for this. Their mission, tokenize the world. Learn more@securitizeio this is a paid partnership, not investment advice.

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