Loading summary
Transcript95 lines
- [00:00]
Scott Melker
Even amidst global market uncertainty, bitcoin is showing incredible resilience and pushing up as markets seem to be melting down around the world. Is it finally bitcoin's moment to decorrelate and start showing how much of a hedge it is against all of this insanity? What doesn't kill bitcoin makes it stronger. And today we've got the legend, the man, the myth, John Deaton, here to talk about all of that and more alongside myself, Andrew, and Tillman, who actually decided to show up today. He actually decided to show up. You guys, it's gonna blow your mind. Four men, one screen. Let's go.
- [00:42]
Tillman
Let's dope.
- [00:55]
Andrew
Let's do.
- [00:57]
Scott Melker
What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, also known as the Wolf of Allstreets. Before we get started, please subscribe to the channel and hit that like button. Now. I'm going to bring on three glorious beards and shiny heads to go with my non glorious beard and hair. I told you guys I need to get. I wanted to get a skull cap and like, just some sort of maybe some yarn. I could grow the beard. I could do it. But it's pretty, pretty amazing. You guys, y'all look great. Here we are. As I said, bitcoin showing tremendous strength here. This was coming not even for me, but obviously from wintermute here. Bitcoin shows growing strength during market downturn. Our friend Matt Hogan saying the same thing from bitwise. Bitcoin acting notably different from prior market pullbacks, wants to go higher if macro obstacles are removed. John, you've been here a while. You got the bulk of your net worth in bitcoin. What do you make of how it's acting with how the government's reacting?
- [01:53]
John Deaton
It's about time. You know, I can't say I'm an OG you know, like some of the people on the panel probably, but I. I've been with bitcoin and Crypto since late 2016. So we've been keep hearing about where it's not going to be tied to the nasdaq. It's not going to be tied, you know, to tech stocks. And maybe we're seeing it break away and be the independent asset that we all believe it is.
- [02:21]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I mean, we're almost back to 86, 000 here. Andrew Tillman, what do you guys make? I'm gonna go to Tillman first. I'm not gonna let you talk, Andrew, because I've got Tillman here, and I don't know if he's gonna just leave.
- [02:30]
Tillman
I was here Last week, what do you got? I mean, two weeks in a row? No, I think it depends on what time frame you look at with any assets you can correlate values. And I think that John's right. I think this is traditionally, we've always looked at Bitcoin as a safe haven against all of the mess that, you know, traditionally finds its way into all the traditional markets. I think that if you look at certain periods of time though, there is correlation. You see the price moving together. And I think that especially when you find eight times the volume of dollars being traded in the futures market against BTC than even in the spot price, at some points in time that's going to happen. Like they can control the price with paper essentially at this point. And you can make price do what you want for very short periods of time, but over the long haul, the math wins. You can't beat Bitcoin. That's what's so great about it, is it's impervious to political opinion, to it really has one metric that I follow, adoption rate. And if adoption rate goes up, price goes up. Those are the two strongest correlated values as it relates to a power law in bitcoin that you can get. And interesting bitwise, came out with an article this week that said that corporations, publicly traded corporations, up 16% in terms of them adding it to their balance sheet in just that last quarter. Q1. So, I mean, adoption rates are not only on the rise from a user's perspective, but then if you quantify what those users really look like, they're corporations and sovereign nations and states and pension funds and they're big, big buyers compared to what we've been talking about in the last four cycles. You know, it's. The game has changed. The pocketbooks are much, much deeper. Wall Street's in play and new mechanisms and new tools and new products are being created every single day, as we've seen in terms of, you know, kind of these now more leveraged products on the ETF side.
- [04:43]
Scott Melker
Now you can go, Andrew, because. Tell me.
- [04:46]
Andrew
Well, I agree, I agree with both. But I will say in terms of price action, you know, we're up 13% in the last six days, so, you know, moving up faster or higher on a percentage basis than the broader markets. You know, as I said for the past two weeks, you know, everybody's melted down about tariff talk and we've basically gone nowhere in the markets. We've gyrated a bit. People get all hot and bothered about it. People, you know, put their eyes on the Sunday futures open. And so, you know, two Sundays ago, Sunday futures are down by five and a half percent. This past Sunday Sunday futures were up 3, whatever percent. It all kind of evens itself out. You know, the market, it continues to be dynamic across traditional markets. But bitcoin, as has been the case so many times, is more dynamic. So oftentimes, you know, we, we get as, you know, long termers in this space and people that hold bitcoin, they can get bored with price action, right? Because they're used to moments and they happen 10 to 12 times a year where there are God candle like moments. So you get bored with price. Well, if you got bored with price down at 75, 76, you missed out on, you know, a 13 move to the upside. So don't get bored with price. Bitcoin is going to do what it's supposed to do. And, and Tillman is right. When you look at adoption rate and we're, we're in a sort of renaissance moment when it comes to adoption corporations taking on more, more bitcoin onto their balance sheet. And it's, it's one thing to talk about corporations that make huge headlines, right? But it's also another thing to look at, you know, smaller corporations that don't make huge headlines. They're also adding bitcoin to their balance sheet and they're doing it in 100 bitcoin, 200 bitcoin, 300 bitcoin, whatever the number happens to be. And so that 16% uptick on a quarterly basis, if that just does another 10 and another 10 and another 10 over the next three quarters, that's, those are huge numbers, right? Those are really, really big numbers. And bitwise has said, Matt specifically has said that, you know, bitcoin on corporate balance sheets is not just a trend, it's a megatrend. And so we're going to continue to see that happen. And certainly bitwise, the conversations that they have on the cutting edge of all of that.
- [07:27]
Tillman
Well, and I, I hate to go ahead, throw one, one more thing in there real quick is that, you know, in, in the past we've seen bitcoin be the most valuable asset when volatility hits the market. That's not the case anymore.
- [07:42]
Scott Melker
Like Bitcoin Treasuries are like more.
- [07:46]
Tillman
We're seeing swings in the real markets. The real markets that are much more wild. I mean what's happened in the NASDAQ just over the last couple of weeks, if you had leverage on either side, you, you're a total extension event. You're wiped out. Too big of moves.
- [08:02]
John Deaton
Scott, can we. How, how could anyone not be bullish? I mean, I just. Just back up for a minute. You have the president of the United States of America has created a bitcoin strategic reserve and he's instructed Scott bessant, the u. S. Secretary, treasury secretary, a bitcoiner and Howard lutnick, a bitcoiner who has exposure to tether up to 5% Cantor Fitzgerald to acquire more bitcoin in a budget neutral matter and budget neutral matters. Now you have bo hinds out there who's the executive director of the crypto council. People are talking about bitcoin bonds, they're talking about selling gold to buy bitcoin, they're talking about all these different new tariffs that are being paid acquiring bitcoin. I just don't see how anyone could not be bullish. I'm almost a little scared because there is no argument not to be bullish. Right. Because if you look at a, a huge event that could scare the market. We just experienced it.
- [09:05]
Scott Melker
Yeah.
- [09:05]
John Deaton
And what did Andrew just say? We're back to where we were, you know.
- [09:09]
Scott Melker
Yeah, stocks aren't higher. Stocks aren't higher than where we were before liberation day. But Bitcoin's trading 2 or $3,000 higher than it was at that point, pushing up much higher. And to your point, it's all just a function of uncertainty in the world that hasn't sent bitcoin. But I mean, you're right, I know it wasn't about bitcoin. But you know, we have bukele meeting with Trump yesterday, the two bitcoin presidents, you know, in one room for the first time. And you basically just echoed the point that Matt Hogan made, which is when the there's any level of certainty or clarity coming, bitcoin should just absolutely fly. I mean, tell you one guy who's definitely not scared strategy, obviously. Michael Saylor bought 285 million more. I mean, John, like for you personally, right? I know you've said publicly many times the bulk of your net worth is in bitcoin. You keep buying, you keep adding. Do you keep going? Michael Saylor?
- [10:05]
John Deaton
I mean, you know, not to that extent, of course.
- [10:08]
Scott Melker
Oh really?
- [10:10]
John Deaton
I mean, yes, Bitcoin hit the 70s bought. I bought in the low 80s as well. And, and so I just don't see again, my concern is what am I missing? Because I can't come up with an argument that isn't bullish. You know, we can have these temporary setbacks and you can't think of A more major setback than what we just experienced. And Bitcoin did resilient the whole market. You know, I know we're going to talk about XRP later but like that's shocking how well that's held up as well. And so I think that we're seeing this asset class really coming to its own right now.
- [10:54]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I think it's just a situation where you got to be selective and smart. Like you know, we have the complete obviously on the side of the memes, but in the middle you're gonna have to choose wisely as to things that are actually going to do something and progress. And xrp, he can't deny like have been pushing hard there.
- [11:12]
Andrew
There are some statistics that you know, should be, we should talk about because again, over the past two weeks there's been this, especially in tradfi markets, there's been this borderline hysteria. Not, I don't, I don't want to go the route of, you know, people in engagement farming or anything like that. But again, there's been this, you know, hysteria associated with futures moving here and markets are going here and what's going to happen. You know, year to date the, the, the S p is down 7.8%. In 2023, was up 24. In 2024 it was up 25. So effectively the S P over the past three years is up collectively 43 right now. Okay. So it's, it's, it's extraordinary to see people try and compare this stuff to whether it's the COVID crash or, or the great financial crisis. It's just, it's not, it's nowhere near any of that stuff. So if you can keep your head and you know, keep, keep it in the right place and make meaningful, you know, well reasoned decisions associated with an asset like Bitcoin. And when it dips, because it'll dip again, you hit 86 or whatever today, or maybe a little higher, but it'll dip again. 83, 82, 81, 70. What, whatever it does, you know, make a well reasoned choice to add to, to Bitcoin at that, at that point or any other asset that you find compelling and think has long term viability.
- [12:46]
Tillman
Well, let's dissect what you just said because I think that if you look at it as an equation of risk, right. If you're a person that does not own any Bitcoin, I would make the argument you have more risk in not owning Bitcoin than any risk you could have in your price entry of owning Bitcoin. So you've gotten to a macroeconomic place globally where inflation, you know, whether you want to call it hyperinflation, whether you think we're on the edge of hyperinflation. We know the printing presses are going to continue. We know $5 trillion is coming down the pike. We know the Republicans and the Democrats are going to bipartisanly agree upon that $5 trillion is going to move the needle. It has to, it, it has to go somewhere. And so when you go, okay, well where is it going to go? Well, let's talk about what Ripple has done. I think this is the, finally the season of utility. We said that like two, you know, bull runs ago. Oh yeah, this, finally we're going to have utility and we thought the smart contract mechanisms with Ethereum were going to bring that. But then we've reached that, you know, glass ceiling that Ethereum has. And, and, but this, this time it feels different because the regulatory environment is so clear for, for big, big institutions to put a lot of money into building the, the arena, if you will, that build it and they will come. So you look at what blackrock and Citadel are doing in Texas to build the first digital stock exchange. Well, Ripple just did that. They now have that. And you know, that's a unique function that is that we used to have and then in the last administration because of regulatory wins we lost, which was a very unique bridge. And the bridge was this. And Tradestation had this because I was touting it. I loved this function, which was you could trade traditional assets, you could trade crypto assets, you could move cash between those assets and you could take crypto off into cold storage anytime you want it. That functionality has, has left our ecosystem and it's back now. And that is something to be celebrated because that's the merge of traditional markets and crypto markets. Kraken's not right. They're right behind them. I can almost guarantee Kraken is going to make, they're going to do this too. I promise. I don't promise, but I really believe speculate. And so, you know, you look at like, to John's point, the, the overarching wins now are tailwinds. Everything's getting pushed digital. And what does that mean? It means that a lot of that new printed money is going to be pushed into liquidity, into this new ecosystem that's being created. And then if you just start to even back up a little bit more and say, okay, we're a bunch of old guys talking about this. What's the 20 year olds think about this industry, like this is standard for them. They're not thinking this is cutting edge. They were born in the darkness. They love, like, they, they, that was a reference for you, Andrew, by the way. They love the fact that we're moving digital and they welcome that, that change. Right. And so it's, I just don't see how you don't see that this is going to grow. And kudos to Ripple because that is true utility. And it is, it's shocking that they've been able to overcome, in my opinion, the hurdle of oh no, international settlements are probably going to be done with stablecoins, which weren't around when we created this thesis. How do we adopt, and I will say this, in history, if you look at the companies that reach the tallest heights, that are the biggest and the broadest, they're able to adopt, to adapt. They literally can change on a dime and reinvent themselves and, and find market fit. And it, it's always done through utility. So the fact that, you know this, what is it called? Hidden Road. This, you. Hidden. Yeah. Hidden Road did $3 trillion of, of, of, of transactions. That's not small. They've got hedge funds playing in this exchange. And so now you have a stable coin created by Ripple that's going to be the, literally the ecosystem itself, the, the, the liquidity and the collateral by which you can borrow against, you can, you know, you can trade on leverage against like all of the fun things that traditional markets have. Now you can go do this in the crypto space. And this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as I'm concerned.
- [17:40]
John Deaton
Scott, let me just comment a couple things. One, whether you're Republican or Democrat, what Tillman said is true. There's one path, and that one path leads to the federal money printing, leads to printing of money 100%. And as far as this Ripple Hidden Road acquisition, I was watching some bitcoin maxis. It's got bitcoin maxi saying, oh, I guess XRP and Ripple are going to be here for the long term. There's no doubt or not.
- [18:09]
Scott Melker
And that's because of you, let's be honest.
- [18:12]
John Deaton
Well, I don't know.
- [18:16]
Scott Melker
Man. You don't. If you don't take on that case pro bono and win, then we're having wildly different conversations about XRP specifically and certainly about anything not called bitcoin that's in this industry.
- [18:26]
John Deaton
Hey, listen, and I owe a lot to the xr, the XRP folks and XRP army, because I did take it pro bono. But I probably should recalculate my net worth. You know, when I ran for senate, I said 80 was in Bitcoin. And that's true. And I've never sold a bitcoin since. But XRP has outperformed. And so, you know, I have a substantial holding in XRP, so it may be down to 65 Bitcoin. And XRP is creeped up, you know.
- [18:56]
Scott Melker
Because I mean, this is like Ripple has crazy money, a 1.25 billion dollar deal to buy this. I mean, these guys are slinging it.
- [19:08]
John Deaton
I've said, I've said, sorry to interrupt, but I've said, and I got, you know, criticized for being like a fanboy or something for Brad Garlinghouse. And I said, I, I think he's the best CEO in crypto to navigate that case, to navigate the, the boot of the government on his company's neck the way he did and these acquisitions that he's made. I don't see an argument you could argue for Brian Armstrong, you could argue for others, but I think the man deserves his credit.
- [19:37]
Scott Melker
And by the way, you can even say that if you don't like xrp, you can just call balls and strikes when it's fair and say, like, look at the situation these guys were in and look at the situation they're in now.
- [19:48]
Andrew
Yeah, there had to be, there, there had to be sort of, you know, a teaming of in the crypto space to take on, you know, the SEC and then the government at large. I mean, you know, again, we've, because the world of crypto, Twitter, has, you know, the ability to focus on something for about nine seconds. We, we've forgotten that, you know, 12 months ago, you know, crypto was borderline outlawed Other than Bitcoin ETFs and Ethereum ETFs in the United States. Like, like, like that's where we were headed. And so now we're in this world where it's wide open spaces. Nearly every case that existed that the SEC was pursuing has been dismissed and moved on from, you know, we're in this new world. In that new world, a trail was blazed by John, by Ripple, by Coinbase, and, and their legal team as well. Those two forces had the ability, and frankly, the truth of the way that legal battles are fought. They had the capital to be able to fight the size and scale of the government, specifically the sec. I think it'd be interesting to hear John talk about the difference between talking to or listening to or being involved with in any way, shape or form, regulatory bodies. Then versus regulatory bodies. Now I, I think that would be really interesting to, to, to see, to listen to.
- [21:28]
John Deaton
Yeah, well, listen, I mean let's just back up what, two and a half, three years with the FTX debacle and the doom and gloom of the industry. You could go to an event like consensus and you could just, it was palpable. Like people were just questioning developers, questioning whether they had given up, you know, they're nine to five and they, they were part of a team, whether they had made the right move, whether they had sacrificed the future of their families. Because this industry was going to basically be outlawed by the US government and everything was going to go offshore. You go from that extreme and yes, you know, I'm not a fan of the, of the meme coins and, and the Trump coin and all that stuff but like Scott said, you get past that and you look at what's happening and you just couldn't write this. If we all went back three years ago and said, John Andrew Scott, I want you to come up with the most bullish, you know, regulatory posture you could imagine. John Deaton would have said I just want him to be neutral. Right? Just take your boot off the neck of the industry, right? Just be neutral. I would have never said the President United States tweeted about xrp, Solana and Cardano. I would have never imagined that. I would have never imagined the SEC agreeing to give back money to Ripple, right? Ripple put a hundred and twenty five million dollars into escrow and they get 75 million back. So the United States government said here, take, take, take $75 million back in XRP or whatever. And that's just incredible. That's why I said that. There's times I wake up and I think, am I missing something? Because I think that if you are a financial advisor and you are not advising your clients to have some exposure to what Tillman said it is. Now if you have no exposure to this asset class, if you have nothing to Bitcoin or any of the other assets, then you are being stupid in my opinion and you are being in way of a more risky position. So how do you not say 1 to 5%? You have Larry Fink talking about non stop about the tokenization of real world assets, you know, and a lot of people don't know this and it's why I always said that XRP would, and the XRP ledger would be around long term. The XRP ledger had the first decks ever in the world, you know, embedded into the ledger. They were actually the first ledger, you could tokenize assets. And so I just think it's an incredible time. We, we, we've got a government now that is basically telling us that you're stupid if you don't allocate some of your wealth to this asset class.
- [24:26]
Tillman
Well, smart money is here and we, you can't ignore it. It's like even when I first heard about crypto, somebody explained to me and this is, you know, early, early days, 2014ish they said it's like having the ability to send secure money in an email and when they open the email, the money's in their pocket. It's, it's like that. And so sending digital money only makes sense. Like it removes a ton of friction from a ton of industries. The thing, the risk that I see, John, to answer your question from my vantage, is that this cycle is going to be different and I believe that this cycle is going to be all about what are you actually doing for the world, what utility have you found? And I think the world has identified Bitcoin's utility as a store value hedge against inflation, insurance policy against fiat, if you will. I think we've securely, we are the Bitcoin is the only option for that from where I sit. And then I think you have all the rest, and all the rest are trying to define themselves against utility. And the ones that are suffering the most, like Ethereum, it's because their utility is being called into question. There are, there are issues with scalability in the ecosystem, Solana, there are issues with uptime, like with reliability in the ecosystem. There's all these things that now, because we've gone through cycles of using the tech, Ethereum, the ICO crazed, we used that, you know, up and down the street six ways to Sunday. We know what Ethereum does under stress. Same thing with Solana, with the Meme Coin phase. Like those kind of bleeding edge peripheral markets test the tech in a lot of cases through these cycles and we get to find out what, what really like if we're going to put real world assets on a, on a blockchain, which one. You know, like I, I'm, I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert in the tech. I love it and I study it all the time and I still couldn't tell you if you put a gun to my head and said which one's going to do the best under stress and be the most reliable. Well, it would be avalanche from a tech perspective. But it doesn't have the depth of liquidity. So you're giving up something. Regardless of who you choose, unless the government comes out and says, or, or like Ripple did, this is going to be the way we provide depth of liquidity. We're backing it with our own token. And if you have the money to do that, like Ripple, I think they've got $125 billion of value there. I mean, they're going to be pushing money into developing utility on the back of their ecosystem. And XRP was the first token I ever saw this type of utility actually being used for. And John, I don't know if you remember this, but do you remember XRP Tips Bot?
- [27:26]
John Deaton
Of course I do. Absolutely.
- [27:27]
Tillman
Yeah. Whit Wind, I think is the guy that created that. And, and it was. No one heard about it other than guys who really loved xrp. But you. It was a way where if I liked a tweet that John put out, I could literally just go at his handle and then XRP and the amount and it would send the XRP out of my wallet, wallet automatically over the Twitter network to a holding account. If John didn't have an XRP tip bot account up and running and as soon as he logged in and essentially verified through logging in with his Twitter handle that that was him, boom, the money was there waiting for him. Even if he didn't have an account set up. And if he did have an account set up, that XRP was in his account instantly, that was the first time I saw social media money transfer capabilities that's coming. That is here. It already was here. How long ago was that? Five years ago that, that he did that?
- [28:27]
John Deaton
I mean, yeah, you know, listen, a lot of people feel that the lawsuit, you know, it suppressed all that momentum that XRP and Ripple or whatever you want to call them, as far as the company or the token itself, that suppression, because that was a way ahead of its time and way ahead. What you just described was Internet of value. It was crazy. Chris Larson in 2013, co founder of Ripple is the one who, who coined that phrase. It was associated with the XRP ledger and, and ripple. So 100, man, it's, you know, it's hard not to be bullish, man. I, I keep telling you, I, I literally keep trying to have these conversations. You know, one risk I think we saw with Bitcoin is that the more Wall street gets involved, the more leverage gets involved. And do you guys think even the dip that Bitcoin experienced were professionals selling it to to meet their margin costs?
- [29:32]
Scott Melker
No, I don't think. Didn't necessarily meet a margin call. I Think it was just a bunch of people panicking on Sunday who couldn't sell anything else.
- [29:39]
John Deaton
Okay.
- [29:39]
Scott Melker
Because we're back above. That's my opinion. I would love. Andrews, I know you're about to jump in, but like when we got Liberation Day, bitcoin traded flat Thursday and Friday and that's when markets dumped hard. And then you get to the weekend and when everybody checks their portfolio, your average dentist or, you know, gets home is like, what, what?
- [29:59]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [30:00]
Scott Melker
In advance of the Monday panic. Right. You have Kramer on TV talking about Black Monday.
- [30:05]
Andrew
Yes, Scott, Scott's spot on about that. There's. You didn't have anything else to sell. Right. So, so you, you know, 99% of average investors don't also, aren't also trading futures actively on Sunday nights. So, you know, they, they, they hold spot positions at Bitcoin on an exchange somewhere, and that's an asset that they can move around and potentially liquidate if they think, you know, if they're listening to Kramer like some of them do, and there's a Black Monday, by the way, awesome that he, that he said we're, we're going to have a Black Monday. Because anytime Kramer says anything, just do the opposite. You're in a good spot. Right. So it's, yeah, it's interesting, very, very interesting times where we're being able to evaluate Bitcoin as a store of value, Bitcoin as a hedge against not only inflation, but Bitcoin as a, you know, is it an uncorrelated asset? Is it a. Has it consciously uncoupled from, from the broader markets and the NASDAQ and risk assets? You know, has, has it done that to some extent? A little bit, yes. But, you know, overall, and Jeff park at Bitwise has made this point over the last month. You know, Bitcoin is anywhere between 9x to 25x more volatile than the S and P. So there should be an expectation when there's a move higher, Bitcoin's going to move faster and higher. There's a move lower, Bitcoin's going to move faster and lower. We've seen some of that. Just like in the last six days with Bitcoin up 13 plus percent, broader markets have moved a little bit higher, but again, not materially, materially higher. So, you know, taking that volatility, harnessing that volatility and being able to profit and benefit from it in some way is, you know, to some extent why we're here. Talking about what it is that we talk about and talking about Arch Public, you know, harnessing that volatility is something that over time, you know, not only spot bitcoin, but then options and swaps and you know, we're at some point we'll get bit bonds and they'll trade and how are they going to trade all of that is going to have additional volatility associated with bitcoin as an asset. How do we harvest returns from that in a, in a meaningful and somewhat thoughtful way? That's all. A lot of it's here and a lot of it's coming over time.
- [32:38]
Scott Melker
Yeah. Two quick things that we had just these stories. Analysts claim two factors position XRP ahead of other assets for spot ETF approval by the SEC. So obviously we know that other ETFs are coming, right?
- [32:49]
Andrew
Yes.
- [32:49]
Scott Melker
Whether it's going to be Solana Doge or XRP is hard to tell in the short term, but a couple reasons they think this might be it and that's because we got the leverage product launched last week. So there's some sort of precedent for approvals 2x leverage XP, XRP and that. That's one of the major ones and market dynamics in general. So the next story though, kind of a surprise to a lot of people and John, I want to kind of ask you about this. SEC delays crypto ETF staking and in kind redemption decisions as agency mulls long term crypto regulatory strategy. So obviously we've gotten nothing but good news out of the SEC over the past three months as they've transitioned out of the regulation by enforcement and have started proving new things. But a lot of people still want to see staking in the Ethereum spot ETF and they want to see in kind redemption in the bitcoin ones which was never approved at the very beginning. Do you think this is the tone is that they're pausing and want to make pragmatic decisions? I think once Atkins is in and they get a clear strategy, do you think that that's fair and that this is not some sort of Gary Gensler esque outright rejection?
- [33:56]
John Deaton
No, I think that, listen, they made the obvious moves. Staking is sort of the last bastion, if you will, of regulatory clarity. And I think that this is just a function of we want to get the chairman on board in place and figure out the long term strategy. And there's probably some mechanics involved where they want, you know, basically his blessing. But I think it's inevitable because the market's demanding it. People want staking, you know, they want yield and they want it with Ethereum. And you know, listen, I, I'm someone and I get a lot of people mad at me when I say this, but Ethereum, you know, I know you brought it up and how it's acted, but it blew the greatest regulatory advantage that I've ever witnessed in my lifetime. You know, I'm just sorry. It's the truth. You know, if you go back to June 14, 2018 and the Hinman declaring Ethereum not a security, that regulatory advantage, especially when others were considered, you know, securities. But I, I think Ethereum is long term is going to survive of course. Although I do believe XRP is going to flip it.
- [35:14]
Tillman
I agree. I think it's going to flip it. I think these blockchains will survive. I think they'll be privatized. I, I think it makes sense if, if I was a company like Disney, I'd find a chain like Solana and I'd buy the majority of the market and I'd control it for my own purposes and I'd be the, the 800 pound gorilla on the, I would do the whole market. The efficiency that running on a coin. Brad Garlinghouse is about to prove it and we're going to see it live. Because when you run an exchange on the back of the rails that he's about to run it on versus a traditional exchange, there is no competition. You are the single player in the market that can do what you can do. And I think that companies are going to start adopting blockchains and I think some of these chains, you know, are going to serve great purposes in the private sector. They're just not. Their utility hasn't been defined. Their utility has to be defined. In my estimation for them to compete with Bitcoin or compete with XRP now that it has found utility, you know, you, you just have to have that. There's got to be a reason for people to adopt and use it I think in it from this day going forward. And why? Well, because the traditional markets are creating the same roller coasters and they're going to create the same amusement parks on the traditional side. It's just going to be paper that you're trading versus the actual asset. So those markets will mirror each other. They're the same coin, just different sides of the coin. They have to mirror each other and the like kind redemption piece of it does. I think there's a little mechanics issue in that because that's not that easy. That's not easy. Listen, you know, you know how hard it's going to be and how much stress it's going to put on the spot market to, to change.
- [37:12]
Scott Melker
Yeah. I mean, and the like, structurally, I don't know if even the custodians are ready for that.
- [37:18]
Tillman
Bingo. Yeah. So it's one of those things, like, I think that those things are getting delayed because we don't quite frankly, know how to do it. And we're still fleshing that out. I do think stable coins make every. If, if the government can create a stable coin package that is very, very clear in terms of the on ramps and the off ramps. Because if they control the on ramps and the off ramps, then they don't care what the road, what's built on the other side of those roads. We have freedom to innovate, build the biggest amusement park that we can.
- [37:52]
Andrew
We.
- [37:52]
Tillman
It'll end up like Las Vegas. But they'll be able to see all everybody that goes in and out on that stablecoin legislation and on that central on ramp and off ramp ramp. That's kind of where I think they're trying to figure out how do we really regulate this and keep it from being something that's negative to the world. And at the same time, we're definitely getting stifle growth.
- [38:18]
Scott Melker
I mean, we're getting stablecoin legislation for sure. I would say market structure. We even get by August, based on what I'm hearing. I mean, Tim Scott's saying that, but from everyone I talk to, anywhere close, that's actually a Trump priority. And straight from the administration to at least get the those things. I mean. And meanwhile, I know, Andrew, you're about to jump in. I'm just kind of watching the market. You know, we were just above 86,085,993 here. But you can feel that the moment spy this, spy up slightly, Q's up slightly. You can feel right now that the moment there's any optimism in markets, bitcoin starts to push.
- [38:56]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [38:57]
Scott Melker
And then you get by, by the way, then you get like a truth social post that says, like, we're semiconductors, 90% today but not tomorrow. And then maybe next week 75%. But also, you know, a lot of credit, though I do have to say a lot of credit. If the Nvidia news that they're coming back to build their full supercomputers in the United States, 500 billion. If that's a result of tariffs, job well done. That's going to be huge when that actually happens.
- [39:24]
Tillman
Hashtag40Chess.
- [39:26]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I think, you know, I think there's positives and negatives to how it's being done. But, you know, bitcoin right back up here at 86, 000. It's like none of this ever happened. Now we need to see, you know, 100.
- [39:43]
John Deaton
Wait the interest rates and quantitative easing kick into and then you add tax cuts to that. That liquidity's got to go somewhere.
- [39:51]
Scott Melker
Yeah, liquidity cycle. And bitcoin is just as always, trails that M2 increase. And it's happening all over the world. Go ahead, Andrew.
- [40:00]
Andrew
Yeah, the, the, you know, we're looking at right now, you know, S P up, let's call it about half of a percent, and then bitcoins up a percent and three quarters. Right. So 1.75. So again, there's that, that correlation where bitcoin is higher, you know, exponentially, you know, versus the markets. Now, again, you get the downside to that too. But there's opportunity with that volatility, you know, extraordinary opportunity with volatility. And again, I go back to Jeff park, you know, he's been on this kick for the better part of nine months about volatility equals opportunity. There's opportunity in microstrategies, price, there's opportunity in bitcoin volatility. There's opportunity in bitcoin options. There's, you know, there's opportunity everywhere. If you're able to come to terms with some of the gamification associated with markets, because that is a reality now. That is a reality. Even in traditional markets, there's gamification associated with it. So can you then take that reality and, and benefit from it in a meaningful way? And again, you know, it's part of my job description to pivot to tools that can allow you to do that. And you know, arch public and our algorithms associated with the gyrations of Bitcoin and now with the gyrations of xrp, just extraordinary tools that allow you to do that. So, you know, I just wish there.
- [41:36]
John Deaton
Was a product you're talking about where a like me and I am a when it comes to tech and anybody that knows me knows that I'm not exaggerating, could basically get an opportunity to capitalize on that volatility.
- [41:53]
Andrew
Well, it's interesting that you say that, John, because as now a user of our algorithms, both our XRP algo as well as our Bitcoin algo, you know, the opportunity to set up processes where you're not only harvesting volatility to accumulate more bitcoin coin accumulate more xrp, but there's also cash yield that's being generated based on the fact that those algos have a long bias, right? So you're accumulating more and you're generating cash yield, then that cash yield can be turned around and moved into the asset of your choice. Because we're launching an XRP algo today. We now have four assets across our crypto portfolio. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, and now xrp. That's available for free to everyone.
- [42:43]
Scott Melker
So everyone listening really hard on Ethereum since it never goes up.
- [42:46]
Andrew
Yeah, exactly. Well, we don't get a whole lot.
- [42:51]
Scott Melker
You got to be really. That's got to be a hell of an algorithm to catch that five minutes.
- [42:56]
Andrew
Well, again, you know, our algorithms are algorithms inside of algorithms, right? So if you have a significant Ethereum position and you want to. To scale out over time, over the next three to six months, our algorithm will do that in an automated way on your behalf. You know, John told us a story when we started working with him about when XRP hit $3. And he said, you know, $3 is a big number. It's a number that I've had in my head and I wanted to lighten up just a little bit at $3. He said, But $3 happened while I was asleep, and it only happened for about nine minutes, so I couldn't do it. Therein is the reality associated with our products that when bitcoin is at 76 or 77 or Solana is up at 134 and you're doing something else, our algorithm is making choices and decisions for you. So just truly extraordinary tech on tech, as Tillman loves to hear me say. And, you know, there you go. Take a look at, you know, what an XRP algo does for you. Right? You're accumulating with a long bias. So there's cells that are happening at the bottom of red candles. There are, sorry, purchases happening at the bottom of Redcan.
- [44:13]
Scott Melker
I was like, really?
- [44:14]
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, that'd be bad.
- [44:17]
Scott Melker
That's not what it says.
- [44:18]
Andrew
And there and there. And there are purchases, you know, happening at the, at the bottom of red candles and sales happening at the top of green candles. So you can't do that as a human. See that huge green candle there? That was probably associated with some sort of tweet somewhere.
- [44:34]
Scott Melker
That's why, right.
- [44:35]
Andrew
Like 99.9 of traders can't sell at the top because they think it's going higher. Like this thing's on a rocket ship. God, candle, it's going higher. I can't sell. Well, you lighten up just a little bit. You make a reasonable decision, but it's being made for you. So.
- [44:50]
Tillman
Well, the truth is, is that you always in, in volatile markets, you want as many entry and exit points as you can manage. Truthfully, if you, if you look at like a hedge fund or any company that is spending a lot of money in the markets, they don't have the choice of going in and, and pushing, you know, Smash Buy and lumping some into their positions. Why? Well, because they move markets, they're playing with that much money. But what they really don't want is the price exposure at a single entry point. They want price exposure over a long period of time and the longer the period of time, the better. Why? Because you're getting an average price that is truly reflective of the current value of the market. You've taken the anomaly situation and you've reduced that risk. And so, you know, to John's point, to Andrew's point, when you're playing with volatility, you want to have a strategy that executes when that volatility presents opportunities. And you can't do that as a human being unless you can stay up 24. 7 and sit in front of your computer 24 7. And so automation is something that has been used by every big institution. It's been used by every major fund for decades. This is just the first time retail can use it. And to Andrew's point, it's free. And I could sit here and talk about it for eight hours and we all could. But nothing is like seeing it and, and seeing is believing it. And so come, come click on our XRP algo if you're an XRP guy or a bitcoin guy and try it for free and talk to us, we'll show you how to use it. But our thesis is that we don't meet anyone that says, oh, I wish I owned less Bitcoin or I wish I owned less xrp.
- [46:41]
Scott Melker
It's always the I met people who said that.
- [46:49]
Tillman
Not now, not now you're not.
- [46:52]
John Deaton
Hey guys, let me make something clear too. I wouldn't even be talking if, if something was going to be trying to shield something to the XRP community. I wouldn't be involved. You know, if it was like, give up your XRP for some yield and all that. I wouldn't be involved in, in fact, I didn't get involved other than an XRP holder who was a lifelong Democrat who supported me when I was running against Warren Todd. We were talking and, and when I learned that this is sort of like retail gets to participate in a way that only professionals. You know, it's always the hedge funds and the big boys, they make money and it's always retail. Who gets excluded out. It's like the, the credit investor rule. Right. We're going to exclude the American population from owning private equity. Yeah. That's upward mobility. Right. But here we have an ability where someone like me can say you know what? I'm participating and I don't have to give up my, I don't have to give up my bag. I don't have to, I don't even have to participate. I could do it free and, and, and then I'll let myself be convinced after free. If I want to participate higher, then that's something.
- [48:10]
Scott Melker
I see such dumb comments and it's. Listen, I get that everybody thinks anytime you promote something and anywhere in crypto it must be a scam. But your assets are not controlled by arch public. Just to be clear. No risk of like I just see it in the comments. Oh, we send you the.
- [48:29]
Andrew
Yeah, no, by the way, by the way, Exhibit A as to institutional tools. What did Ripple just buy? What did Ripple just buy a massive dealer for, for billions of dollars. What happens at that institutional level? Those institutions, 80% of their trades are done algorithmically. They're doing that stuff algorithmically. So ripple just paid $1.25 billion for that company to be able to have access to, to, to, to that type of stuff. We're giving you access to it for free. We're giving you access to that type of technology that's that valuable in traditional markets. We're giving it to you for free.
- [49:15]
Scott Melker
I just don't think people understand you. You can set the parameters.
- [49:18]
Tillman
Yeah.
- [49:19]
Scott Melker
There's no way that you lose all your money doing this unless you decide that you want to take the wildest gambles which the algo is never going to want to do in the first place. It's just wild people's assumptions.
- [49:34]
Tillman
Real quick because we've, we've, we've gone to great lengths to, to provide as transparent and a business model as you can provide. You put your money on a major exchange. Gemini Kraken Coinbase your money is, is in their hands. We don't ever have access to your funds. So you trade in the exact same account that you have a brokerage account with. Now secondly, the, the automation or the Algos that we provide run through TradingView so you can pull historical results through trading view. You don't even have to take our word for the historical performance of the, the Algos. You can Pull the results straight from Trading View. We'll show you how to set it up and you can run it for free for as long as you want to run it for. So you again, there's no risk in, in you trying it. If you're a naysayer, I urge you to try it because I, I would love to hear whether you've been convinced or not after you've use the product.
- [50:30]
Andrew
And we're careful to, to say certain things because you know, you, you can't, you know, guarantee anything. But there's, there is a box when you're setting up your algorithm on Trading View that says never sell under your cost basis. Now I, I don't know what that means to you, but when you're running an algo and you're making purchases associated with an asset and that box is ticked and says never sell under your cost basis. I don't know, that sounds like a pretty good box to tick associated with the algorithms, you know, giving you extraordinary performance. And you're not, you're not taking losing trades is kind of the point that.
- [51:09]
Scott Melker
Hey, I mean, you can not try it and you can hate.
- [51:12]
John Deaton
There's always, there's always going to be.
- [51:13]
Scott Melker
Don'T take 100 bucks.
- [51:14]
John Deaton
And you, you can't, you can't please everyone. The, the bottom line is the democratization of investing. Yeah, that's that, that's where my heart is. Okay. Someone who escaped poverty, who, who's tired of the, the, the, the rich people. The wealthy, you know, the people that made money on Wall street off this tariff, you know, you know that there were people connected to it. I don't care what you say or anyone says, but being able to give a tool to a regular Joe like me, okay. And others. Right. To participate, you don't, you know, again, nothing's being pushed on anyone. I, I would not participate in anything like that. All I know is that if, if I can participate with these kind of tools going into the future with these algos and build wealth and that kind of tool is brought down to regular people, mechanics, nurses, you know, plumbers, and they get to participate in a way of building wealth where they've been excluded all their life. That is where my heart is. And that's why I hopped on here and that's why I started using it myself free. So you don't have to buy anything.
- [52:32]
Scott Melker
Yeah, you don't have to do anything. And then, and to your point, I just want to say, like, it works exceptionally well for the everyday person who just wants to gain Exposure. But actually, the smartest people I know also want to use these things because they know that they can't manually do it and that it's going to do exactly what they would ideally want to do if they could be there 24 7, 365 with the emotion. It's just so obvious.
- [52:55]
Tillman
If you, if you remove emotion from markets and if I ask you right now, are you a buyer at 65,000? Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I am. Well, how much do you want to allocate at 65,000. $5,000? I can layer 100 if, then scenarios in this software to where I can say, if the market gives me this, I want this to happen. And then you set it and forget it. So when those events take place, you're removed emotionally from having to do the manual process when the market is bleeding or you. It's all being done. And so it's a way. If I told you, hey, I, you know, the only way to get fit is to go to the gym. And you can't go to the gym for, for 48 hours straight and be fit. You have to go to the gym for an hour a day for 48 days. You have to be consistent. You have to be available. You have to dedicate time. That's the same thing with taking positions in anything you. It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of thought, it takes a lot of execution risk. This takes all of that away and allows you to sit there when there's no emotion and say, okay, over the next year, what do I want to accomplish with my crypto bags? What do I want to accomplish with each one? And set up an infinite number of if then scenarios or instances to accomplish that. When the market presents those opportunities and you're. It's out of sight, out of mind, and you look back on it and it feels like magic. It'd be like if you got to go to the gym every day for that hour in your sleep and you just woke up on day 48 and you were healthier, more fit and in shape because it's been done for you, essentially, that. That's the closest analogy I can give you.
- [54:46]
Scott Melker
Yeah. And I know we. Go ahead. Andrew, last thoughts, because we got to run in a second.
- [54:51]
Andrew
Last dog. You need to shave your head and grow a beard. That's why.
- [54:55]
Scott Melker
All right, I'll try. It's archpublic.com you can see it down in the bottom. For those of you looking. And I mean, listen, I can just tell you that I've been through every up and down of participating and promoting anything over all the years. And everybody knows that, like, had the bulk of my net worth on Voyager and they were my first sponsor in 2019, before any of this. I'm very cautious about how I approach it. You use this at your own discretion. There's nothing controversial here. Right. You use at your own discretion. And I can tell you that I hear nothing negative. And thousands of you have signed up, quite literally thousands of people that I talk to and we know have signed up for this free algorithm and are using it and haven't heard a single complaint. And I would. Before anyone else. Right.
- [55:47]
Andrew
So that's right.
- [55:48]
Scott Melker
You know, you wouldn't have John and I sitting here if there was any way that that wasn't the case. All right, guys, we do have to run. John, man, thank you so much for everything you do. Thanks for showing up. Absolutely. Always incredible to have you here. Tillman, Andrew. You guys are all right?
- [56:04]
Andrew
All right, man.
- [56:06]
Scott Melker
All right, everybody, thank you very much. We'll see you tomorrow. Life, that's dope.