← The Wolf Of All Streets
The Wolf Of All Streets
Bitcoin Selloff Shakes The Market! Is A Mega Rebound Around The Corner?
01:01:08
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- [00:02]
A
Bitcoin had an aggressive sell off on Sunday night, as we know, and is still currently trading around 113,000. Of course, that means that some people think it's all over. We're going to 10,000. Mike McGlone and others think that this is just a reload for the continuation of a massive bull run. There are a lot of signals that a mega bounce could be around the corner. We're going to unpack that and all of the institutional news right now with of course my co hosts Andrew and Tillman. But way more excitingly than those oversized bald men is that we have James Seyfert here from Bloomberg. And everybody loves when James Safer is here from Bloomberg. Let's go, let's go.
- [00:55]
B
Let's do.
- [00:56]
A
Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the bloodbath. And by bloodbath I mean crypto went down a little bit and apparently we're in a bear market. But gold now about to trade at $3,800, making new all time high after new all time high, which is obviously scaring the hell out of a lot of people. I know, James, it's like Bloomberg's official policy according to McGlone to be gold bugs. Has that memo hit your desk yet? I know you guys aren't allowed to like bitcoin and you're allowed to love gold.
- [01:26]
B
Yeah. So, yeah, basically no gold is. I, I think there's more people who are both like against gold in a portfolio and bitcoin in a portfolio than there are people who are gold bugs and anti bitcoin. I feel like those people are a little more rare. They're becoming more and more rare nowadays.
- [01:42]
A
I think that's true. So listen, since we have you here today, I'm not going to dig into everything else. First, let's talk about the big news that's happening in the ETF world. Obviously we unpacked some of this last week, but not with you. We have first SEC approved generic listing standards for commodity based trust shares. And I would say maybe equally but less hyped news was the grayscale ETF with multiple cryptocurrencies. Obviously this is our first effectively index fund for crypto in an ETF wrapper, which, I mean, I just think this is just massive because this is how people invest. Right. But maybe you can kind of give us the status on where we're at with ETFs now. When is the come Rocket ETF coming? Because obviously now anything can have an ETF and we need that.
- [02:28]
B
Yeah, I mean all this does is strips out a lot of the roadblocks and time that take it takes to bring one of these ETFs to market. You're not going to get some of the more esoteric meme coins, but there are two meme coins that feed the fit the criteria for those generic listing standards. Right? So they're dogecoin and ship right now. So theoretically you could file an ETF and within the next few months get a shib etf. They're already dogecoin ETS filing filed and they already meet the criteria so they could launch within the next like month or two potentially. So yeah, basically all this is if you look back to 2019 ish time range, the, the SEC spent five plus years going through this thing known as the ETF role rule 6c11. And basically what it did was came up with generic listing standards for 1940 ACT ETFs and basically streamlines the process so you don't have to go through that 19 before process which is like that long 240, 260 day delay, deny, approve, back and forth, refile, issue these 60 page documents like why you denied or approved them. And it's a lot of work and you had to do it for every, every fund and every new asset. And it was just, they didn't want to do that for all of ETFs and they, but they never did it for these, these commodity based shares. And that's what this is, it's basically streamlining that. And that difference is why futures products when they filed able to launch basically 75 days after filing as long as. Yes, he said SEC didn't stop them. And why Rex Osprey like forced some of these assets directly into 1940 act product, 1940 act products because they were leaning on that rule from 2019 which like said they don't have to go through this 19 before process and they use regulatory and legal workarounds to do that. So yeah, I mean like this is just streamlining everything and we're gonna get well over 100 ETFs probably that are going to be involved in the crypto space in the like next six to 12 months.
- [04:17]
C
Whatever, whatever brand of coffee James had this morning, I would like a cup.
- [04:24]
A
James is always hot fire. Andrew, you obviously haven't been paying attention.
- [04:29]
B
I had, I, I had no coffee but I did, I did go for a run that I only finished about 20 minutes before we came on here.
- [04:34]
A
So natural coffee, that's where that glow comes from. I mean listen, you mentioned these kind of, you know, circuitous routes people have been going through to get ETFs with XRP and DOGE. I would imagine that lights a fire under the ass of the SEC in general to get these generic rules out so they can just, you know, get, get these going. We had this news that 21Shares launches Dogecoin ETF on DTCC. So obviously I'm a huge DOGE fan. I wear my oven mitt every time we talk about it. But what does it mean to be launched on DTCC but not yet publicly available? Can you explain that?
- [05:11]
B
You want the honest truth?
- [05:13]
A
Yeah.
- [05:13]
B
It means nothing really as far as I'm like, like you, you could file right now and probably get it your like some ETF on DTCC if you've gone through the process. That said like a dogecoin ETF under that, this new generic listing standards under the traditional, I'll call them Pure Sprout, Pure Spot. Like that's the way I think about the products that we're talking about here. They're like the, the iShares and everything other Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs that have come out over the last year and a half. Right. They're pure spot. These other ones that have come out, they are mostly spot, but a lot of their exposure is like through Cayman subsidiaries or they're holding ETFs held overseas. So there's some inefficiencies there. There's some like fee drag in a little bit, but it's giving you the spot exposure. You're just going to underperform slightly. These are going to be a little more, more pure and they're coming.
- [05:59]
A
Isn't the question here, Andrew, telling? I mean, Andrew, like now, isn't it not about how you get an ETF approved, but how you get futures approved on Coinbase etf? Now you lobby Coinbase to get your token approved for futures. There's only 12 to 15 right now.
- [06:16]
C
So the SEC is just on the list.
- [06:18]
A
I was dying.
- [06:19]
C
Yeah, the SEC is just playing catch up with innovation. You know, they're playing catch up with their own regulatory sort of framework with where innovation is going. So we're going to find ourselves the next three to five years where everything's happening all the time, nothing really shuts off. And so you've got to have a regulatory environment where you can get a product approved. There's framework where you can get a product approved very, very quickly. So it then can get inserted into that type of environment. So you know, as James just mentioned in his, you know, initial Comments? You know, we had this process where you got 60 days and 40 days, 60 and then 90 and 60, and you're going back and forth. And, you know, that that just sounded like a good idea to have just more lawyers and they get paid more. Wasn't a framework even for, even for current markets. It didn't work. So catching up to innovation and where we're headed with stuff is, Is a good thing for the sec. You know, the SEC is trying to be, you know, a part of that innovation as opposed to slowing it down or being a roadblock or being a bystander. Right. Because it, it's going to move in meaningful ways. You know, to your point about Coinbase and, and Futures or whatever Coinbase does, or whatever Robinhood does, in any given week, that's going to. To press and press and press innovation. It's going to press regulators, it's going to press players in the market, and it's not going to slow down. It's certainly not going to slow down in the next three years. They're going to press and get as much done as they possibly can from an innovation standpoint, and then we'll see where we're at in 2028, let's call it.
- [08:10]
D
Well, my take is, finally, the markets are able to respond to demand. I think we've seen this demand pinned up for a long time. And diversification is obviously a tool that everybody's familiar with and everybody uses. And the more products you have available to you to diversify against, you know, the easier investing becomes or the more mindless it becomes because you're going to be able to create indexes against everything, just bet on the entire industry going up. And, you know that I would say that that's a pretty safe bet. Instead of trying to pick and choose between the various projects, there's a lot of technical know how that needs to be had in order to evaluate a crypto project on its own merits. And I just, I think this is a good thing. I think it's going to help, you know, people who don't have the sophistication inside the crypto world to place real money, like big money against this industry. And I think that's a good bet. But I just think it's. It goes back to what, you know, everybody's been kind of focused on this year, which is productizing, you know, crypto and productizing it in a way that is fully integrated into the tradfi side of things, because that's where the customers are demanding the intersect to happen. The customers want ease of access. They want loans against their crypto. They want to feel like they're a part of the, the banking community and have access to all the familiar services that go along with that. And I think this is just a natural evolution of the markets and excited to see it.
- [09:43]
A
Yeah. What we need is 2x leverage, short SHIB ETFs, which they'll be here, but.
- [09:49]
B
I believe they will be here.
- [09:52]
D
I think the great thing about crypto, though, that's almost teaching Tradfi something is how sticky an investment can be. I mean, think about what we're talking about here. Like Shib is going to be a Wall street product. Shib is nothing more than a community. It's a community of people that are proud to be ship holders. And that's something that we. I don't know if the tradfi markets have seen in a while. I think back in the heyday when, you know, Coca Cola was at a, you know, I think now it's just this money grab chase. And I think that, you know, that demand is very clear and evident, that there's a lot of tribalism inside crypto. And when you do have enough technical knowledge to make your assessment as to whether you're a believer in the project or not, it's almost like, you know, the orange or the blue pill, red pill type scenario. There's no going back after that. You. You kind of have, you know, sold into the project.
- [10:49]
A
Yeah. Quickly, before you guys jump in, there's actually two kind of pieces of breaking news that are hitting right now that are relevant to our conversation. One, Justin Visa Stripe and Fold Partner to launch Bitcoin credit card. This seems to be the new trend. Gemini and Coinbase's card. But this is pretty big. And then this one in this conversation, SEC to allow crypto companies to launch products in the US without burdensome regulatory requirements. Gary Gensler's loving that. I mean, just deep, deep in his heart, I mean. Okay, to skip those. James, going back to the other conversation, before we get to any of that and you can comment on that, is there an element here where the SEC is sort of playing kingmaker with Coinbase? I know that it's just because they happen to fit the requirements. Maybe the better question is, is there an angle now where the Robinhoods and Geminis and everybody else in Kraken try to get on that list that Coinbase is already on so that they can launch these other futures products which will then count and be ETF'd?
- [11:48]
B
Yeah. So the way I see this is like the SEC is pushing this off of their plate to determine what can get an etf. Essentially. I, I honestly think they pushed off a little more than they should have. What it comes down to is if you're in one of these surveillance groups, which Coinbase derivatives platform is in, and you have a futures contract for six months, like that asset can go through, right? Like that's what, that's what you're talking about here, Scott.
- [12:10]
A
And that's kind of the else besides Coinbase right now.
- [12:13]
B
No, not in the crypto. CME is on there, but obviously CME is a little slower to put these like derivatives contracts on there. Any other platform like that. There are some overseas platforms as well that do this, but Coinbase is the most forward thinking, I guess you would say. But the other part is there's language in this document that like, if you are like an actual spot trading platform and you fall under these surveillance like plot, like you fit into these surveillance groups, say Coinbase's actual spot crypto trading platform somehow registers and becomes like able to be considered part of that ISG group, the surveillance group, like all of a sudden those things trading on there are eligible for an ETF as well. So I would say like it's, this is just the start of it right now. If we see a bunch of these other platforms having derivatives platforms and even their spot platforms, which I think is going to happen in the coming years, we're going to see a lot more things come out. And basically what it does is right now it's like if the CFTC allows these futures contracts to list and they're okay and they don't do anything to stop it, then that goes through and then obviously it's up to the issuers to file for these ETFs. So the issuers, they, they're not going to file things that they just think are not going to work, but they are going to shoot a spaghetti cannon at the wall to see what will stick. So we're going to see a ton of stuff come to market. I actually think as somebody who was like, you were just talking about Gary Genzo there. I mean if you listen to his interview on cnbc, all the reasons he was like saying he was against the space were like meritorious. Like he didn't think some of these investments had merit. And that is not what the SEC is supposed to do. They're a disclosure regulator. They're supposed to say like these are, you have to disclose all the risk to your investors and this is what you can and cannot do. And this is what needs to be in these documents. And his defense like on CNBC was basically like it had, these investments had no merit. It's like that's not the SEC's job. So I, I also think they maybe didn't go far enough here. Like I, I think there should be some limits on like there has to be a certain level of volume. Maybe there should be like some limits on free float. Like you can't be launching these coins with high, high FTV, low float type things where you're only 20% of its trading into an ETF wrapper. Like there's openings here for like really sketchy stuff to happen. So I think we could see some extra added criteria come on down the line. But for now it's just good because as, as Tillman said, they're getting out of the way of innovation. They're just kind of letting this stuff go. And ironically enough the lawyers, like yeah, they're getting a lot of money to do this but if I've talked to a lot of lawyers in this ETF space, they are, they do not want to be dealing with this 19 before s over and over and over again. Yeah, they get paid but like they don't want to do it. And this is going to make it cheaper to launch ETFs. So we're just going to see a spaghetti cannon hit the wall. We're going to see a lot of, you know, excrement hit the fan as well and the market will decide what has value and that's what will stick around.
- [14:38]
A
Spaghetti and excrement everywhere. Yeah, that's what I, speaking of the top, by the way, the top of the market is the fartcoin ETF approval I'm calling it right now.
- [14:50]
D
I was just gonna say, speaking of sketchy stuff, I mean I, I do think SEC has a role here that they could stop a lot of the stuff that we see happening in the markets. No different than the 1.7 billion dollar of long. Billion dollars of longs that got liquidated yesterday or day before. That was, that was, that was an attack that was there. You can go analyze it for yourself. But the deeper you dig into that movement, there's a reason it happened at 2am on Sunday night in all foreign spot exchanges. It was a cascade event. And those are the types of things that are like money grabs. They're at $1.7 billion versus 12, 12.74 million in longs taken out. So when the, when the markets are disjointed and there's a layer of liquidity that can be flushed that is $1.7 billion deep. Trust me, somebody is targeting that. And, you know, the sec, you know, that's really what their role in the markets are, is, is an investigative enforcement agency. And, you know, to James's point, they're not really built to assess whether Weisberger.
- [16:10]
A
Weisberger broke that down really well yesterday, obviously because he sees the price action on coin routes. But he made the point that the SEC and CFTC don't even work together. And you have one side on the spot exchanges being manipulated and the other side is the futures and leverage. So in the United States, we wouldn't even be set up necessarily with that because you have two disparate regulators that are in charge of the two sides of the market used to manipulate the price there. It's pretty interesting.
- [16:37]
D
Very.
- [16:38]
C
Yeah, regular, you know, cross regulatory conversations are just thrilling podcast conversations.
- [16:45]
A
It is. We should do that. I think we should dive deeper. You want thrilling stuff? I'll give you something thrilling. Here's some red meat. Jim Cramer wants to see a pause in the endless rally of speculation. Who's up?
- [17:00]
D
If that isn't the indicator of the start of the bull market, I don't.
- [17:03]
A
Know what it is. It's time. And speaking of time, we're coming into October. October rally question. Does crypto markets turn red nine days out? As if nine days means literally anything. Ten days left until October, where we're going to put another big, big green one there. And if you take a look, almost everybody who's ever bought Bitcoin right now is in profit. There's like 12 people out there who are like, damn it, I've lost money on an average basis. What do we think of the market here? Do we think that all that what we're talking about is going to be catalysts, all these ETFs, where are we at?
- [17:37]
C
Some of us actually remember, you know, previous crypto cycles, right? So previous crypto cycles, you know, go to significant tops and then they race very, very quickly to 40, 50, 60, 80% retracements. And that's literally just not happening across crypto over the last six to 12 months. Not only is Bitcoin not meaningfully retracing, but all of altcoins and the move that they've made over the past 12 months are not in any way, shape or form meaningfully retracing. Like, you know, Solana stayed in between. You know, it's called 1215222 50. Right. That's a big spread. But at the same time that went down to eight bucks like three or four years ago. Right. Very, very different price action because we now have a floor associated with the world that, that James lives in which is every single day there's going to be a new ETF news associated with altcoins or a mix of crypto or a mix of something where there's going to be flows, flows, flows, flows and flows and by the way the people that generate those flows. So your wealth management clients at mass affluent high net worth and ultra high net worth shops like the Ameriprises all the way to the Morgan Stanley's and the Goldman Sachs, they buy that stuff and they never sell it, they never get out of it. Right. They buy low and sell when they die. Not buy low and sell, sell high. So that floor will keep moving up. So point being is cycles have, have been rearranged for a while. So will October happen? Of course it will. The interesting thing to me has been over the last, let's call it 9 to 12 months is the floor has completely changed across this asset class. Completely changed.
- [19:29]
A
Because of treasury companies.
- [19:33]
B
So I actually agree with most of what Andrew said. I think like the, the amplitude of these moves up and down, at least on a percentage basis maybe and not on a dollar weighted basis is going to go down. Like it just has to happen over time, like that's what's going to happen. But the other side of it is like I really do see a future where like some of these DAT codes like cough up coins, so no matter what coin they're investing in, something's going to happen where they're going to end up coughing up coins and it's going to contribute to a downturn. I, I think over a long enough time frame what Andrew said is correct. Like the institutional world advisors are buying these things as a set allocation in their portfolio. They're not like rocketing. There is some momentum trading obviously happening ETFs. There is a retail contingent involved in buying these ETFs. But a lot of the people that I talk to, institutions, RAAs, they're thinking about this as a set allocation and they rebalance on a semi annual or annual basis and if like it goes above that allocation they might sell a little or maybe they'll increase their allocation or if it goes down they're gonna buy. So like it's this like there's like as Andrew said there's this kind of, this now like set floor from billions of dollars in the tradfi world that is buying into the space at least with Bitcoin to a lesser extent Ethereum and you mentioned this in there earlier. We didn't really even talk about it. Scott. GDLC getting approved Multi Asset Index etf. I think one that's massive that just goes in line to GL the generic listing standards bit W from Bitwise is going to come shortly after Franklin has rejected paused indefinitely. Yes, stayed. They'll come out. I think that category is likely to be the third biggest category we can get Salon and XRP which will be huge initially but I think these index basket products are going to the biggest product for at least the near future after Bitcoin and ETH just because they have such a long head start. But if they had launched all at the same time. These basket products as you mentioned that's how people invest. That's how these RIAs tend to invest. They want beta to this market like these basket products that say all right I'm going to give you the top 10 coins x Bitcoin and people are gonna like all right, I'm gonna put a little in Bitcoin. I'm gonna put a little in this beta. Yeah and they'll figure it out and like or they'll just I don't know anything about this. I'm gonna put a 4% in this index fund that is 80% Bitcoin and 17% Ethereum. You know and that's how this is going to play out. That's where most of the assets are likely.
- [21:42]
A
James, quickly I had Kyle Samani on obviously from Multi Coin and Ford Industries the huge Salon of company that just launched. I had him on Sunday and he said with pretty high conviction Solana ETFs was staking will be launched by October 1st.
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B
I mean we already have one. Rex Osprey's SSK has staking exposure.
- [22:03]
C
That's an eight days.
- [22:05]
A
Yeah, yeah that's why, that's why I'm asking James because he knows things.
- [22:08]
B
I haven't heard anything moving that quickly but honestly it wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't shock me. I would probably take if I had to bet on it depending on the odds I'd probably take the over but I I'd be shocked if we don't see them launch in October. The part of the problem that I have caveats on is the the SEC is ready to approve staking in Ethereum ETFs that when Salon ETFs launch they are going to launch with staking. The only concern Is like part of that approval is like, these are grantor trusts. It's a specialized structure. They're not allowed to have income. So that's why they hold gold or silver or Bitcoin. Typically the question is with Ethereum and Salon and some of these other coins is like, does staking yield count as income?
- [22:46]
A
Or.
- [22:46]
B
And like, if the question isn't what the SEC thinks, it's more about the IRS's view. And I haven't heard any public IRS comments. So I think we could get to a situation in my view where the SEC says I'm fine with this, but the IRS hasn't given a comment on whether or not this is allowed in like the tax code or what have you. So, like, that is the only area where I still have some questions in the back of my mind. I'm like, is this ready to go? Other than that, I. We're. I'd be shocked if we don't see these things launch in October.
- [23:10]
A
We still have an irs. I thought that they got.
- [23:13]
C
Does anybody. Does anybody remember the videos that Gensler made about steak versus staking?
- [23:19]
A
Oh, yes, they're very cute.
- [23:20]
C
Those were. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:22]
A
Those are really good videos. But with you with staking ETFs, doesn't this take a bit of the shine off of the altcoin treasury companies? I mean, his view is that it's very good. But like, you know, if you can go buy an ETF and you get the 9% boost from the staking, you know, doesn't that kind of discourage you from paying a premium for a Treasury company that's doing the same thing?
- [23:49]
D
Aggressive ways to. Than just staking. Right. The D5 ecosystem allows you to press the pace as much as you're a.
- [23:56]
A
Much smaller gap, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:58]
D
So you just. Yeah. If that flavor of ice cream fits your, you know, desires, then yeah, go, go for the etf. It's much easier. It's a much more convenient way to get that exposure. But if you do it yourself, you can dial it in to whatever you want and you can press it in ways that you can't through an etf.
- [24:19]
C
Yeah. To me, the, the treasury company stuff is just a, a pivot and a. Almost a bid associated with. All right. There's nothing cool and fun meme coins are. Nobody's doing that anymore. So let me take a flyer. The kind of investors involved there. Let me take a flyer on this Solana, you know, treasury company. See what happens. You know, maybe the price moves 3x and I make some money. The the, there's a, there's a significant difference between a Bitcoin or Ethereum ETF investor and a Solana, you know, DAT investor. Those are, those are very, very, very different people.
- [24:58]
A
True speculator versus passive investor.
- [25:00]
C
Correct, correct. Very, very different audiences.
- [25:03]
B
I like steel manning the arguments here because like I, I, I see the argument on both sides here. Right. So for an etf you're getting pure beta exposure to the asset with staking yield. Now are they going to be able to stake 100 of the assets? That remains to be seen. You know, liquid staking tokens. But there's concerns about being able to take money out of the, the staking queue. Particularly with Ethereum ETFs they have redemptions on a daily basis. You need to be able to meet those redemptions. There are other assets, bank loan ETFs for example, that they have lines of credit basically because they take so long to settle bank loans that they can tap on that credit until the settlement actually happens. So there are ways around this, there are ways you can structure this, but you're just basically paying a fee to get beta exposure. If you want exposure to basically a closed end fund. The way I think about it, almost like a bank that's diving into these spaces doing true defi and you think they can, you know, outperform the underlying yield of the beta market. You're investing in active management. And honestly we've seen with Sailor, he's actually been able to grow the actual bitcoin per share over time and at so far over the last few years it's been a valuable way to invest. Right. Like he's actually been able to do the things he's been saying. So if Samani, you know, Tom Lee or any of these other guys are actually able, even if you're paying a premium to get exposure and they're able to grow, you know that end Ethereum or Solana per share faster than you would be able to get it in just a beta exposure.
- [26:28]
A
Yeah, it could.
- [26:29]
B
That's the, that's the bet you're making when you're buying one of those things so quickly.
- [26:32]
A
Before you guys jump in, I know James, you gotta go. So anything else we might have missed that's on your radar? Any final thoughts?
- [26:38]
B
No, like I said, the we're gonna see literally like hundreds in the next 12 to 18 months of crypto related products come to market. They're going to be covered call products that generate income on Dogecoin and Bonk and like we're gonna see Levered products on both sides. We're gonna see active basket portfolios probably that are like picking different coins and weighting them however they want, the way you would think. An active mutual fund manager. I mean all this is going to happen in the next 12 to 18 months. I think there's also going to be like 18 to 24 months from now, a lot of liquidations. So like I said, people are going to throw at the wall and we'll see what sticks and the market will decide what has value. And the final thing I'll reiterate is I think there probably needs to be some additional rules maybe around volume or float or fdv, you know, any of those things that besides what's like if you have a futures contract for six months on this platform, you can, you can launch an etf. I'm all for libertarian ideals. I just don't want people taking advantage as exit liquidity with some of these high float, low FDV coins. So yeah, that's, that's my view in the space. This is extremely positive. Things are heading in the right direction. We're in a completely different world from when Gensler was here and everyone's saying the SEC isn't moving fast enough. Has no idea how slow a government agency can be. This is, they're, they're moving at lightning fast.
- [27:55]
A
This is lightning pace even for a non government agency. James, man, as always, thank you so much for joining. Appreciate everybody. Give him a follow. Jace. Safe. Right on.
- [28:04]
B
Yep. J Safe on Twitter. Thanks guys. This was fun. Have a good rest of your day.
- [28:07]
A
Have a good one.
- [28:08]
D
You too.
- [28:09]
B
James.
- [28:09]
A
He's gonna go run some more.
- [28:11]
D
Yeah, I feel guilty after you didn't run.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah. But for you it's like 6:30 in the morning, man.
- [28:18]
D
It is early.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah.
- [28:20]
C
So unless people Forget like speculation, ETFs, all kinds of weird stuff coming to market. The most heavily traded ETF last year was like a 2x long Nvidia ETF. ETF, right. It was a leveraged product that you know, you had to go figure out and find. And people figured it out and found it and traded the heck out of it. Right. So you know, whether it's speculation or not speculation, I mean for all intents and purposes, that's what most of the market is anyways. And so you know, the crypto is going to add additional alpha, additional trading volumes, additional everything to the, the current traditional system and banks and brokerages and everybody in between is going to be all about it. Makes everybody more money.
- [29:11]
D
Well, it gives you the ability. It's like having a new ingredient to work with as a chef gives you a much broader menu, right? You can, you can produce things that you otherwise couldn't produce for your customer base. And James said something I think is exceptionally important to, to take note of at this point. With these products that are launching, you're making as much of a bet on management as you are on anything. And, and I think a lot of people get lost in the whole, like, I'm just investing in Bitcoin and they make excuse now. Well, there's, there's ways to invest in bitcoin where there is no management exposure. Bitcoin doesn't have management. It does what it does because it's Bitcoin and it's programmatically driven that way. When you're talking about, like, combining assets and you're talking about debt mechanisms to buy more Bitcoin and whether you dilute your shareholders or you don't, and all these decisions that go along with treasury companies and, and the like, you're talking about people trying to create an advantage, right? And when you have to try to create an advantage, you have to take risks to do so. So there will be a lot of losers along the way. There will be a lot of winners along the way. And we're going to get to see who the brightest minds are and, or who the luckiest people are in the space over the next 10 years and who gobbles up the market share. But I think that if you look at really what people are doing, they're injecting bitcoin and altcoins into every type of model you can imagine. And they're doing it because it provides exceptional upside with relatively low downside, if you believe this is the, the next revolution as it pertains to finance. So I think, you know, this is just the beginning. This is the tip of the iceberg, like we've talked about before. I've given this analogy a hundred times. It's like we've driven across the Vegas or the, you know, Nevada state line and we're in the first gas station and we've never gambled before, and we see these three slot machines and we sit there all day going, aren't these things great? Not knowing that Vegas is right down the road that's being built. We're about to see Vegas unveiled over the next 10 years. And there's going to be an infinite number of things, but ultimately, if you're not holding the asset yourself, you're trusting management and their ability to multiply that at a greater, you know, M nav than just holding the asset or greater than M nav than one. So it's going to be interesting.
- [31:44]
C
There's going to be, you know, DATs, digital asset, treasury companies. How long did it take somebody to come up with that acronym? There's going to be 10 to 15 of those that survive. Right. They'll go through a proverbial cycle, though. They'll survive. But those that do survive will be meaningful. I, I'm, I always hearken back to what happened during the, you know, the Internet.com bubble and then burst. And oftentimes I talk about Priceline because I remember Priceline at like A$92. The reason why I remember Priceline is because I was a broker back then and I have customers in it and there were, there were mornings where I would wake up and it was down like 37% and I was sweating on my way into the office. Right. I hadn't looked it up in a while. It, you know, Priceline, you know, changed its name to booking.com. i had a few times on this show said, well, you know, it's $92 now, it's 2,000. Booking.com is $5,000 a share right now. 5,000 for. Right, yes, $5,000 a share. So also, I'm reminded that there was a time, I don't know how long ago it was maybe 15 years ago, where private equity companies actually went public. And at the time, basically overall theme was, well, why are they doing this? What value do they really add? The share prices didn't move in any meaningful way. BlackRock went public, KKR went public, blah, blah, blah. I looked those up, too. All of those have just completely skyrocketed beyond anything that I remember. Point being is that whenever there's a new category, that new category will go through a version of a washing machine. And some of it will be like paper in your jeans and it will just literally dissolve. And then there'll be some jeans that actually come out of that cycle and you'll be able to wear them. They will make it through a wash. A wash cycle.
- [33:42]
A
So there's 10 jeans in the paper. We got the jeans in the paper. The Vegas gas station. James had excrement hitting a fan, then hitting a wall and a spaghetti machine. Apparently that throws spaghetti at walls, which I need.
- [33:57]
C
Yeah, he used a word amplitude, which I didn't think was real. I googled it. It is. So that's.
- [34:07]
D
I'm fact checking, fact checking you on Booking Holdings Inc. And you're right. It's $5,400 a share.
- [34:15]
C
All you do on that website is just say, hey, I'd like.
- [34:18]
D
Yeah, but I want you to think about. Everything that pulls that type of value is a network that connects people andor collects a lot of data. And that, you know, that qualifies if anything does. I mean, they've collected a hell of a lot of data over the years.
- [34:37]
C
You know, the. The. The. The digital asset treasury movement, you know, will somehow survive again. The Tom Lee's of the worlds, the sailors of the worlds, you know, and a few others would. You know, the. The guy Solomoni or whatever his name is that you. You had on for World Coin.
- [34:54]
A
I think you just called him like, the Iranian ayatollah or something. But.
- [34:58]
C
Okay. And.
- [35:03]
A
Salami. But I'm.
- [35:05]
C
I threw an L in there. I threw an L in money. But, you know, there will be survivors, and they'll do exceptionally well. We'll look back at them and say, holy cow. You know, you could have bought it for $7, and now it's at 1100 bucks, right?
- [35:20]
A
Nakamoto is trading at a buck 25 right now.
- [35:26]
C
A dollar 25 might even be a.
- [35:27]
A
Slight discount to their net.
- [35:29]
C
So the question then becomes, you know, are. Are you a believer in, you know, a Tom Lee type of management structure or. Or that guy or whoever is running the ship at Nakamoto? That's the question you got to ask yourself, right? Who's going to survive there? You know what I mean?
- [35:48]
D
Well, I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's one of those things where you say, you know, the. I've heard this a lot. It's like, easy to become relevant, harder to stay relevant, right?
- [35:59]
A
Yeah, man. Yeah.
- [36:00]
D
It's like, yeah, you just have to hit one ball, one home run to become relevant. To become. You stay relevant, you got to keep hitting home runs. And, you know, I think launching a Treasury company is. Has a lot of sizzle to it. And you see these huge moves. I mean, look at. Look at Gemini's launch. I mean, I was very anxious to see what would happen with their ipo, because they put their, you know, financials out a couple of weeks or a month before, and they had lost. They were losing money. And so I wanted to see, like, do you. Do you trade at a positive mnav when you're losing money? Or, like, where. Where does it fall? And it's just interesting to see that there's a lot of money that wants to speculate at the Very beginning of things. And see, you see these huge pumps and then everybody that's like becoming relevant. Like Trump Coin, it was relevant for 36, 48 hours, and then it became not relevant. And when it. When you lose that, you know, staying relevant, there's an exit that's just really brutal.
- [37:05]
A
The attention economy right now that has been, you know, fertilized on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, where everything gets your attention for 30 seconds before you move on, literally. World tragedies and everything has fully been gamified in the stock market.
- [37:20]
C
Yeah, it's such a smart point.
- [37:21]
A
You see every one of these Christmas tree kind of charts where you get the massive pump and then the absolute dump. Because everybody gets financial advice from the Internet or from a friend, they do no research. They buy the thing somebody tells them to buy 30 seconds later on their phone, immediately it's the top, and they don't know when to sell it and ride it all the way to the.
- [37:42]
C
And the only way you cut through that, both short term and long term, is innovation. You've got to have some version of innovation and you have to keep innovating, right? You certainly have to keep talking about the innovation that you're doing, but you have to innovate. You absolutely have to do it. You know, Nvidia could have stopped however many chips ago and they'd still survive and be awesome. Cough, cough, Cisco. But they keep. They keep innovating. They keep. Every quarter there's a new innovation that people need and want to get their hands on. It's been that way for several years now. It's the reason why, you know, turn them again. I've. I've made this point several times on the show. There's a lot of people that sold when Nvidia went from 100 billion to a trillion dollar company. Right? That was a dumb move because now it's, I don't know, anywhere between three and a half and $4 trillion company. So you almost 4 extra money from that point. So, yeah, innovation is truly what, you know, what drives sustainability.
- [38:48]
A
We're talking about arch Public, right?
- [38:52]
D
One more thing on David Bailey and Nakamoto, I wouldn't personally bet against a guy becoming relevant again who got Donald Trump to come speak at his conference. Like, listen, it. You can go dormant after your initial home run for a long time.
- [39:12]
A
He's got a lot of home runs.
- [39:14]
D
And there's gonna be another home run down the road. Yep, that's exactly right.
- [39:18]
A
Listen, for me, I like final words on Nakamoto I was very critical obviously. I wrote a whole newsletter on like, I think one of my lines was like right after it dumped was like, with all the rumors spreading, buying this is just lighting money on fire maybe. And then I bought it two days later. No, because I heard what they had to say and I read his threads and all and he did a great job at addressing the rumors. I thought about all the things that you just said and I decided, well, if this thing is trading at Nav or below has massive people that I believe in behind it, then this is as good a place to throw some money into this market as possible. I'm not saying I was right or wrong. I think criticism was fair. I think they were victims of a terrible like structure. You know, they launched kind of first and then they had to wait from May to August until they could actually buy any bitcoin and they had to wait a couple more weeks before the shares registered. You know, you get ahead over your skis or you try something first, there's going to be unintended pitfalls. I think that, that come for you. But let's talk about, not that, let's talk about Arch Public and let's talk about future fun one because these are the, these are the things right now. This is all we actually care about. We just talked about all this other stuff for you guys.
- [40:31]
C
Speaking of innovation, I mean again, whether it's adding exchanges, adding symbols, you know, the Gemini, Kraken, Coinbase and, and Robin Hood. Now at this point point we've got a couple of those, a couple more of those coming on the way here over the next 30 to 60 days, you know, additional products, you know, we're, we're, you know, a couple weeks away from, from adding an entirely new product line that people are going to engage in. Our concierge program folks are, are going to get their hands on first. Yeah, innovation is the name the game. At Arch Public. We simply, there's no reason to stop doing it and give people an opportunity to engage in just a massive, massive growing warehouse of, of, of strategies and products and opportunity for them to use and kind of, you know, just be blown away at the scale of what it is that, that we do at Arch Public. So it's the jeans, it's not the paper. That's correct. That is correct.
- [41:41]
D
User driven automation, if you've never experienced it before, is something that really pulls back the curtain and, and exposes you to a world that you have always heard about, you know, high frequency traders or you know, systematic trading. All These things are integrated into TradFi and have been for a long time and it's, they actually rule the market. 70 plus percent of the volume every day is, is automatic. So you, you, you look at the crypto space, you look how fragmented it is, you, how disjointed it is. In a lot of cases you look how cumbersome it is to navigate and then you try to multiply that times a hundred entries that you're trying to make into a position and the headache becomes a hill that most people are unwilling to climb. And so Arch Public is about creating tools that make that hill less steep, make it easier to climb and to give you exposure to things that allow you to take what your preferences are as a user, put those preferences to work inside of an algorithm that will then execute against your preferences and set it and forget it and leave it. And then you're not having to be a slave to your phone and watching the markets and trying to time the markets and the emotional swings that go along with that. You have a systematic robot that's sitting there based upon what you've prescribed it to do, acting on your behalf. And for anybody who hasn't heard us talk about this before, we built this as an effort to solve problems that we were frustrated that weren't being solved in the space. And one of those big glaring problems were I wanted to use automation without trusting somebody else holding my money, trading it for me. Well, our system is completely user based. You can use it for free. You don't have to call us if you don't want to. You can sign up, load it up, read the instruction manual and get trading, you know, very, very quickly. Your money stays on your exchange. We are now integrated with Gemini, Kraken, Robin Hood, Coinbase. We have a lot of integrations. So pick, pick which one you want. If you already have an account there, pick that one because you'll get you waiting for Robinhood.
- [43:58]
A
It takes a long time to transfer money into Robinhood, by the way. Did it? I'm still waiting for it to hit like four or five days I think maybe because I'm new. But yeah, I got, I'm, I'm going to be running a multiple six figure portfolio publicly on the show every single week on Robinhood, running the algorithms to compound Bitcoin. So like I'm just gonna put this out out there guys. Don't this up because like if we do this and I lose all my bit. No, I'm just kidding. It's gonna be great. We know I've seen it, I back tested it. I'm go, we're going to just do it with my actual money very publicly so that we don't have to explain it as much anymore.
- [44:35]
C
Well, given, given the amount of, of, of price action just over the last 48 hours, we nearly have to create an entire show to go through all of your traits. I mean, you know, again, if you've got Solana and SUI set up and on the arbitrage side and you've got three or four intelligent accumulation stuff happening on Bitcoin and Ethereum, you're talking about 12 to 14 trades inside of 48 hours just because of the price action. And again it all happening, you know, at three in the morning when you're sleeping or you should be Sunday.
- [45:08]
A
Must have been fun for the algorithm.
- [45:10]
C
Exactly right.
- [45:11]
D
Well, a lot of people hear over and over again, you know, volatility is a feature, not a liability of the markets. But when you ask the retail space, how are you harvesting volatility in this market? Nobody has an answer. And including us before we built these tools. Now you have a tool set that allows you to go, if Bitcoin drops by x percent, buy this much Bitcoin. Well, why would you want to prescribe that? Well, you're buying on dips. That's, that's literally the objective. So if you spread your capital out across a long period of time and you're buying on the dips, your dollar cost averaging on all the low points across that time period and you can.
- [45:55]
A
Also set it to like, if you make a certain amount and it goes back up a certain amount, sell a slight portion of that to cover the trade plus keep more Bitcoin, plus make a yield. And you can do it on Solana and other assets which have a lot and Sui, which have a lot more volatility and compound that into Bitcoin. Guys, like I said, I'm just going to show it, we're going to talk about it every week. Exactly what's happening. There will be some weeks where we're down, there will be some weeks when we're up. But it's important to remember my goal isn't for the portfolio to necessarily be up. It's for me to efficiently add as much Bitcoin as possible with the money that I assigned.
- [46:31]
D
So if it goes into a fair.
- [46:32]
A
Market, I will have more Bitcoin. But yes, correct dollar amount might be down, but that's not my goal. I'm not doing this to trade into dollar profit. I'm doing this to dollar cost average better into Bitcoin and farm the volatility on other tokens to do it.
- [46:47]
D
You just said exactly what the key point is. If your objective is to rebalance constantly between cash and positions, there's no better tool set that I've ever seen than what we have to do that. And so if you're in 0% crypto and you want exposure, there's a certain protocol and number of protocols that we can help set up for you and you can set up for yourself that will accumulate into a position. If you want to take a position, you want to harvest volatility, there's a whole nother setup that you can do in multiple setups and layers upon layers of, of instances and tradable events that you can engineer for yourself to harvest the volatility according to what you, your preferences are and what your objectives are. It's incredibly flexible. And once you start playing with it and once you start using it, one thing I will note, you can't. If your objective is to accumulate more of the asset that you're trying to accumulate Bitcoin, or if you're trying to play the volatility, there is no losing. You're, you're, you're going to buy more Bitcoin. If Bitcoin's volatility happens, you're going to sell. Now you get to prescribe. Am I buying $500 of Bitcoin and selling 500 or am I buying 500 and selling 100? And what kind of a bull bias. How much am I taking off the table versus how much am I leaving on for long term appreciation potential? So incredibly flexible and it allows you to dial in exactly what you want to do based upon what cycle we're in and what period of the cycle we're in.
- [48:25]
C
Something else that needs to be said is because Trad5 markets are nearly 80% run by algorithms at this point. That's not the case in crypto. Nowhere, you know, you can make the case that maybe it's 10%. We're nowhere near that number. So if you're a retail person using these tools, you are miles ahead of people that are not using these tools. You're effectively Jim Simons and Renaissance Tech in 1979.
- [48:55]
A
Did you guys ever see the video where Marshawn lynch plays football with a bunch of high school kids? Yes, you're Marshawn lynch, running back against eighth grade.
- [49:05]
C
Now, over the next five to seven years, crypto will get there in terms of programmatic, algorithmically, you know, running stuff. But you're, you know, you are miles ahead of everybody else if you're using these tools. So yeah, that's another thing to consider. If you want to front run algorithmic trading across crypto, you have the ability to, to do it here and by the way, really nowhere else. Really nowhere else.
- [49:32]
D
Or if you're a, if you're the prudent person that doesn't want to enter crypto because we're quoted all time highs you can set and forget strategies that will buy at the generational lows. Like it will wait for the bottom of the bare market. So you can use it to accum, you can use it literally for the entire spectrum of what an investor would like to, to accomplish and it becomes a very personal thing. Our, our team is exceptional in helping you through it. I saw the comment pop up. Luca is one of our employees over at Arch Public. Every one of our employees I think to date, maybe a couple aren't but they're all ex customers. They're customers that fell in love with the product and know it so well that they are now passionate about helping other people learn it and know it as well as they do. So if you have interest, here is my. The, the way we've set this up, it's completely free to use. There's no watered down version. It's the full robust version of our software. You can go on our website, download it, you can set it up and you can use it absolutely to your heart's content, absolutely free. There is a maximum tradable amount through the free version of $10,000 per year. So if you're under that, don't think about anything else, go use it because it's going to be an exceptionally eye opening event for you. If you have more capital that you want to trade and you reach that limit, call us and talk to us about the concierge program. That's how we can put you in a, in a specific area that allows more capital to be traded and it gives you essentially hands on help with setting those up and learning about the software. And that's become really our staple. Like we get more praise from our customers about our customer service and how we are engaged.
- [51:22]
A
Yeah, shouldn't we make a video of me getting this set up with your people so that. Yeah process. Like shouldn't we, shouldn't we just, I mean part of it can be me just waiting. The beginning of the video can be me waiting for money to hit Robin Hood, just waiting. But like couldn't we just turn it into a, like so people can see what this process is like. And we would just have like little clips of, hey, this is like getting it set up on training view. This is how we set the parameters. Because if you guys want to go with the parameters that Arch Public views. So I'm going to allow Arch Public to basically run this in the way that you guys would think is ideal based on my needs. Right.
- [52:04]
D
Well, you're, you're going to run it based upon what the historical performance. Yeah. So you, here's, here's the truth, guys. When you do a historical analysis of previous price action and what a strategy would have done over a period of time, there is no correlation to the future unless things continue to remain the same. And so that is what you're essentially looking at there. But what it does help you do is it helps you get started and then once you get those default settings in there, it's very simple to change those because everybody has a unique capital need like Scott. You're a unique buy purchasing power compared to other customers. So you're going to need to appropriate that the way that you want to appropriate it. Well, yeah, let's do a video and, and that will definitely kind of highlight the onboarding process and what it looks like.
- [52:57]
C
Yeah, I think the video with you, Scott, will add amplitude to, to.
- [53:01]
A
I just think like, you know what we, we've attempted this whole show started with a equity trading portfolio which is still, by the way, massively up. We just stopped updating it. But I think that the key here is just as much transparency as possible, which is why I was finally, I wanted to wait because like my very close friend is a top guy now, Robin Hood. I just wanted to do it with Robinhood. Right. And so obviously we could have done this with all the others, but now that we have the, the green light to do that, like, let's just run it. Have fun, guys. You'll see if it's, if it's reaching my goals. We're going to be honest, we don't want to, can't be able to hide it. But also if we can just kind of go through this process that we talk about every week and show people what that process is like. Right. I think it'll better the process and product, but also make people a lot more comfortable. But guys, it's 100% my own money. There's no, like, I'm going to put a large, large amount of money into this and we're going to run it indefinitely.
- [53:59]
C
Yeah, love it.
- [54:01]
D
We will be right there along the way to help you and set you up and we can film it and all that good stuff. That's great.
- [54:07]
A
Hey, I know it's 9:58 and that means we're probably supposed to go but we need to also talk about this.
- [54:12]
D
Yeah, we're exceptionally excited about the response to that we've gotten so far on the Future Fund. One, there's a lot of ways to try to tackle incorporating bitcoin into you know, what I would call traditional businesses and you know, real estate and real estate funds I think are such a beautiful fit that we have launched our own fund. If you're accredited and you are accredited investor, please reach out to us. You can go to Future Future, this website right here and you can enter your information and we'll send you a A deck and we'll have a conversation with you and explain to you what we're, what we're doing. But the very briefly the, the function of this fund is to acquire real estate that produces cash flow from both operational cash flow, but also if we are the fund is the landlord and is collecting rent roll from that property, that cash flow is being deployed into bitcoin. And so we are going to essentially be a bitcoin accumulation fund on the back of tax advantaged real estate that produces cash. And that's, that's the model and that's kind of what we consider to be in our opinion the, the most prudent way to scale capital into a bitcoin position. Because you have a natural dollar cost average mechanism built in, in the fact that you know a lot of the companies, if not all of them are a 50% contribution to net operating income. So if you have 50% of a business's income coming into the fund and we're acquiring it every month or every quarter in the fund you're getting exposure over long periods of time to the bitcoin curve and you're not borrowing money to make those purchases. So you have no liquidation pressure. There is no point where, by which your model is bust. So it's a way in our opinion to add a ton of upside to what a lot of people would consider to be kind of boring cash flow real estate properties and juice that model with tremendous bitcoin advantage but at the same time hedge against that with the tried and true tax benefits of the big beautiful bill and the real estate component of, of the, of the, of the fund. And what it does is it allows us to take some of the refinance opportunities inside of the properties that we own and repurpose that cash into high growth companies that will contribute more and more net operating income into to the bitcoin treasury. And a lot of companies that are high, net high growth have a hard time raising debt capital to achieve the growth potential that they're. They're able to achieve. Our, one of our partners in the fund is a good example of that. They're one of the fastest growing franchises in America. They print cash in pretty much every store that they've opened. And it's one of those things is like the individual franchisees only have so much borrowing capacity to go expand into their territory. Well, our fund is, is something that is targeting those unique opportunities for expansion capital, but also have a great cash yield that we're able to secure with that investment. And that cash yield is what we're interested in, in multiplying and compounding and putting into bitcoin so that our bitcoin treasury continues to compound and multiply. So that's as short as I can make it. Call us if you're an accredited investor and we can talk.
- [57:55]
C
As short as I can make it.
- [57:59]
A
Yeah, that was pretty good.
- [58:00]
C
Oh, it's pretty good.
- [58:02]
D
Feel like I need an oxygen mask now. I didn't stop. Take a breath there.
- [58:05]
A
That was good. And I'm gonna put a bunch of money in this too, so you guys can watch that go.
- [58:09]
C
Sweet.
- [58:10]
D
Well, listen, tax advantage funds are, I mean, if you're familiar with them, they're just kind of a no brainer. If you, if you have a big tax, tax liability, the government has incentivized you to make investments in certain properties, real estate, estate, you know, equipment, those types of things. And so if you can invest in a fund where by which you have a tax liability, you know, there's a tremendous and 80% accelerated depreciation in the first year. So that's just. It has a lot of benefits besides the upside bitcoin provides.
- [58:45]
A
We did it. 1003. Pretty good. So yeah, you guys can check that out. It is. Let me just get the exact address. So you guys have it. It is futurefund.archpublic.com and of course just archpublic.com you can find all of those things. Great conversation. I'm gonna go for a run. James made me feel like I need to go run and otherwise so. Oh, the, the, the final thing for those you may have seen that Dennis Porter has been wildly teasing a massive announcement in the political realm of bitcoin, which is today. While that is happening, he'll join later with whoever I don't know what the announcement is by the way. Guys, don't shoot the messenger. I know everybody freaks out. Like wasn't big enough giving the forum on Crypto Town hall. Also going to do an interview with them later today. But if you're wondering what this is, I am as well. And it will be announced on Crypto Town hall at some point during the show today. From 10:15 probably. I'm gonna make Andrew at least join.
- [59:40]
C
Yeah, I'll be on there. Maybe even a bigger announcement is Morgan Stanley just said that they're going to offer bitcoin and crypto trading the first half of 2026. By the way, that's going to happen, you know, with an acquisition that they're going to make. I've been hearing about acquisition rumors at Morgan Stanley having to do with bitcoin and crypto trading exchange stuff. But they did just announce that they are going to. Yeah, they're going to be offering, you know, bitcoin and crypto trading spot type stuff in 2026.
- [60:16]
A
Yeah. Wow. There we go. All right, we will see you on these spaces. Thank you guys. See you soon. Bye. AI is reshaping the world. But right now it's stuck in the hands of just a few big players. But what if AI could run openly, verifiably and on chain? That's what zero G is building. The world's first decentralized AI operating system open to everyone American. Imagine a network where you don't just trade tokens, you train, store and run independent AI models at scale. No lock ins, no black boxes, no single point of failure. Just quick, cost effective, auditable AI that anyone can build. If you believe the future of AI should be a public good and not just another corporate monopoly, join us at 0 g. AI. That's the number 0 and the letter G. AI.