BTC Holds 100K! Is the Next Leg Up Imminent? | CryptoTownHall

Summary

The Wolf Of All Streets: "BTC Holds 100K! Is the Next Leg Up Imminent?" | CryptoTownHall

Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Scott Melker
Guests: Dave, Gary, Mauricio, Andre, Perry Ann, Gaurav, David

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Episode Overview

In this lively CryptoTownHall edition, Scott Melker and guests dissect Bitcoin's volatile journey as it holds above $100,000, debating whether the next bullish leg is imminent or if further correction lies ahead. With a focus on market psychology, long-term holders, the impact of ETFs, tax policy, and government influence—including a fascinating geopolitical angle on nations’ Bitcoin reserves—the conversation weaves between technical analysis, narratives from crypto's past, and legislative wrangling. The tone is witty, candid, and laced with the hard-learned lessons that come with surviving crypto’s chaotic cycles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Market Volatility and "The Emotional Rollercoaster"

• Bitcoin's recent pricing: Fluctuating between $103K and $107K, inciting both doomsday and euphoric responses from the community.
  • Scott (04:20): "Yesterday we're at 105, 106 maybe we pushed to 107 and bear market's over... then like you wake up and it's at 103 and we're going to 75. It's all over. I still will never [understand] how 3 to 4 percent of price movement has such emotional swings for... people on crypto Twitter."
• Range-bound movement: Dave notes the market's stubborn range and the presence of underlying demand, questioning whether the next trigger will break the cycle.

2. Long-Term Holders, Demographics, and Supply Dynamics

• OGs Selling for Life Changes, Not Panic:
  • Dave (07:26): "The marginal benefit of going from a billion to 10 billion, if you think Bitcoin's going to 10x, is just not nearly as large as cashing out some of that and taking a few hundred million so that your family is set up in perpetuity."
  • Early miners and holders are diversifying, motivated by life changes (homes, families), not immediate profit.
  • Demographic shift: Early adopters, often in their 40s or older, are employing tax-advantaged strategies to unlock wealth (Andre, 10:19).
• Natural Supply vs. Speculative Selling:
  • 2022's forced selling (Voyager, Celsius, FTX) contrasts with today’s patient long-term holders who can afford to wait out volatility (Dave, 08:13).
  • Gary (09:29): "For the first time in crypto history, you have a way for people with $300 coins to have a very tax efficient liquidity event. That's what this is about."

3. Tax Policy and the ETF Effect

• ETFs as Tax-Efficient Vehicles:
  • ETFs facilitate strategies like "Buy, Borrow, Die," helping whales avoid taxable events by borrowing against assets rather than selling (Dave, 17:46).
  • Perry Ann (21:06): "If Trump wants the US to be the crypto capital of the world and he wants to be the first pro bitcoin president, something he could do... is encourage decentralization of bitcoin. Remove the capital gains tax altogether."
• Policy Proposals and Political Realities:
  • Calls for making Bitcoin tax-free (especially for small transactions), but resistance noted due to "budget neutrality" politics.
  • Gary (24:08): "We can't just start picking assets out and go, okay, I want that to be capital gains free. When I'm holding gold, I have to pay capital gains tax or crude oil."
  • Debate over the feasibility and implications of treating Bitcoin differently from other assets like gold.

4. Decentralization, Privacy, and Legal Nuance

• Perry Ann (25:28): Asserts the importance of privacy, referencing Ron Paul's Competing Currencies Act and advocating for heightened digital financial freedoms.
  • "Americans have a right to privacy that includes digital privacy. And we should not have to disclose our... Bitcoin addresses to, to the government either."
• Reflection on the IRS's decision to tax Bitcoin as property (2014), and its pivotal impact on Bitcoin's evolution from potential "peer-to-peer cash" to a store of value.

5. Global Geopolitics: Bitcoin Reserves as Strategic Assets

• China vs. US Bitcoin Holdings:
  • Recent legal wrangling over confiscated Bitcoin signals its strategic importance on the world stage (Dave, 35:19).
  • Scott (41:44): "The story though is that governments are vying to create strategic bitcoin reserves by figuring out who can steal the bitcoins better."
  • Gaurav notes China's significant state-held reserves, second only to the US.
• Game Theory in Government Accumulation:
  • Gaurav & Dave debate whether governments see Bitcoin as a gold-equivalent asset and the difference between active portfolio defense and slow, strategic accumulation.

6. Security Risks, Exchange Collapses, and The Allure of ETFs

• Recurring Theme of Hacks:
  • Multiple guests recount losing substantial crypto to hacks/scams or bankrupt exchanges (44:17-45:37), underscoring the appeal of regulated ETFs for mainstream investors.
  • Scott (46:11): "Getting hacked or like bankruptcy or getting your assets stolen is like the price of admission for having any meaningful involvement in crypto."
• Recovery and Resilience:
  • Dave notes the industry’s post-FTX resilience as a testament to its maturation, and why average investors now seek ETF safety.

7. Exchange Listings, ICOs, and Regulatory Futures

• Coinbase's "Amazon of Tokens" Pitch:
  • Gaurav reveals that Coinbase aims to become the leading, compliant token marketplace; rapid new listings drive user growth despite skepticism about token quality (47:44-51:23).
  • Gaurav (51:29): "A token listed on Coinbase does not mean that it's the best token in the world for you to buy... just do your own research."
• Centralized vs. Decentralized Exchange Competition:
  • Andre raises concerns about how regulated exchanges can compete with DEXes (Decentralized Exchanges) that operate without compliance friction, but Gaurav notes users also value KYC, speed, and UX (52:41-53:42).

8. Regulatory Landscape: SROs and Legislative Change

• SROs (Self-Regulatory Organizations):
  • Discussion around CFTC potentially gaining spot market oversight (with the Clarity Act), and whether SROs should play a role akin to equity markets.
    • Perry Ann (56:08): "Once the Clarity Act passes... we're going to see massive, massive changes to how the CFTC operates."
  • Nuanced pros and cons of industry-led regulation are hashed out, including historical tales from equity market veterans (Dave, 58:18).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Holders Cashing Out:
  Dave (07:26): "The marginal benefit of going from a billion to 10 billion ...is just not nearly as large as cashing out some of that and taking a few hundred million so that your family is set up in perpetuity."

• Bitcoin Volatility in Perspective:
  Scott (04:20): "I still will never [understand] how 3 to 4 percent of price movement has such emotional swings for... people on crypto Twitter."

• On Long-Term Bitcoin Supply Overhang:
  Mauricio (06:03): "Old bitcoins, wallets becoming active again... demand might be there, but it meets supply and then some. This market [is] stuck with an overhang."

• On Making Bitcoin Tax-Free:
  Perry Ann (21:06): "If Trump wants the US to be the crypto capital of the world and he wants to be the first pro bitcoin president, ... remove the capital gains tax altogether."

• On Privacy and Freedom:
  Perry Ann (25:28): "Americans have a right to privacy that includes digital privacy. And we should not have to disclose our... Bitcoin addresses to, to the government either."

• On the Hidden Cost of Crypto Involvement:
  Scott (46:11): "Getting hacked or like bankruptcy or getting your assets stolen is like the price of admission for having any meaningful involvement in crypto."

• On Exchange Listing Philosophy:
  Gaurav (51:29): "A token listed on Coinbase does not mean that it's the best token in the world for you to buy... just do your own research."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] — Sunspot cycle jokes segue into Bitcoin’s price swings and crypto Twitter’s emotional volatility.
• [06:03] — Discussion on old bitcoins moving; supply/demand dynamics.
• [09:29] — Tax-efficient selling via ETFs; demographic changes among holders.
• [16:45] — In-depth on ETFs, tax advantages, and the evolving legislative/political scene.
• [25:28] — Privacy, IRS policy, and impact on Bitcoin as “peer-to-peer cash.”
• [35:19] — China’s and US’s accumulating state-controlled bitcoin, and global strategic reserves.
• [45:00] — Security failures; tales of losses on exchanges/hacks; why ETFs have found success.
• [47:44] — Coinbase plan to become “Amazon of tokens,” and the mechanics of token listing.
• [52:41] — Centralized vs. decentralized exchange competition; user experience vs. compliance.
• [56:08] — CFTC, SROs, and the regulatory future (Clarity Act’s impact).
• [59:47] — Final reflections as Bitcoin dips below $102K during the call.

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Tone & Takeaways

Witty yet deeply informed, this episode captures the resilience, pragmatism, and debate-prone nature of veteran crypto participants. Panelists blend technical arguments, lived experience, and policy insight, offering both hope and realism about Bitcoin's next moves—grounded in a sharp awareness of regulatory currents and the unpredictable, often perilous, world of digital assets.

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Summary by: The Wolf Of All Streets Podcast Summarizer
For: Listeners who want a comprehensive yet natural-flowing overview of the November 12, 2025 episode "BTC Holds 100K! Is the Next Leg Up Imminent?"

Transcript

[Dave]

Sam Sa foreign.

[Scott]

Everybody, welcome to Crypto Town Hall. 10:15am Eastern Standard Time every weekday here on X. Gary and I were just texting back and forth before this about how the sun currently in the Tampa Bay area is the brightest we have ever collectively seen the sun in history. I never. Gary, that was the first time somebody texted me and said go stare directly into the sun if you can.

[Gary]

Dude. My, my housekeeper came home. I've known her for 14, 15 years. I said Bobby, am I crazy? But. And she looked at it, she's like yeah, it's okay. And but she was putting her hand above her head. I'm like hey, why are you having to put your hand above your head? I've looked at the sun many times and not had to shield my eyes, bro. I cannot. Five hundred dollar ray bans that are mirrored. I cannot look at the sun right now. I mean I'm not a freak but like this coronal ejection must be doing something because this looks like it's closer to us. Does it not?

[Scott]

I, I don't know what it is but man, it is like.

[David]

But you know, peaks in the sunspot cycle are associated with, with market crashes foreign.

[Gary]

Well, funny enough, The Simpsons like 10 not only yeah predicted 11, 1125, you'd have a black a solar blackout and we're having a coronal ejection. I just thought it was interesting.

[Scott]

Anyway, and yesterday Tampa Bay was like empty. I don't know why. The low tide was the lowest I've ever personally seen. Besides a hurricane, of course. Anyways, maybe we should talk about markets we've got Bitcoin holds 100k. Is the next leg up imminent? Dave and I obviously did YouTube to get today together so some of this might be redundant for those of you who watched it, but I did comment. It's kind of funny that, you know, Yesterday we're at 105, 106 maybe we pushed to 107 and bear market's over. Bull market has commenced. And then like you wake up and it's at 103 and we're going to 75. It's all over. And I just still will never how 3 to 4 percentage of price movement has such emotional swings for seemingly the people on crypto Twitter.

[Dave]

It almost defies logic. But look, there's a range we've been in a range we've been bumping around the bottom of the range. Maybe this will be a triple bottom test. I don't know. A Bart Simpson pattern. I have no idea. I mean you mentioned the Simpsons. I mean, look, the truth is there's demand at these levels and they're not going to stand there and hold the level either if there's substantial weight and they can buy cheaper. But there is demand. The real question is, is there natural supply or is it just speculators who believe that the four year cycle is this inviolate, godlike, handed down on stone tablets thing that is destined to continue to repeat itself? And my bet is on no.

[Mauricio]

Hey, Dave.

[Dave]

Yep.

[Mauricio]

I threw a chart into the chat, which is just talking about, you know, old bitcoins, wallets becoming active again. It looks like, yeah, demand might be there, but it meets supply and then some. So I just see this market as being stuck with an overhang which is going to take a while to burn through.

[Dave]

And why do you think that, and do you think, David, that that is not exactly what we've been living through for the last six months?

[Mauricio]

Well, clearly, as you look at the chart, it says that as well. But it also raises the question that's time honored on Wall Street. Who's the greater fool, the buyer or the seller? I mean, these are people who own the asset for a long time and they've decided, hey, good time to portfolio diversify. Do you want to be on the other side of the trade?

[Dave]

100%. Because the size of Bitcoin. 100%. And it's not like it's a question. I mean, Gary and I were talking about this the other day and Gary had a great post about it. Look, there's two things. First of all, if you bought bitcoin or mined bitcoin from the early days and you went from being your basic, reasonably well off, kind of nerd to a multi billionaire, what's the marginal benefit to you from being worth a billion dollars to being worth $10 billion?

[Mauricio]

Do you denominate this in lambos?

[Dave]

I denominate this in, in just people's lives. I mean, you have to if, if you divorce, if, if you can't, if you don't understand the fact that for people who are not literally judging themselves on a scale of, of the same scale that the Jeff Bezos of the world judge themselves, or Gary for that matter, and you go from being, you know, worth, you know, a few thousand dollars to being worth a billion dollars, the marginal benefit of going from A billion to 10 billion, if you think Bitcoin's going to 10x is just not nearly as large as cashing out some of that and taking a few hundred million so that your family is set up in perpetuity, like literally forever with a life.

[Mauricio]

No argument.

[Dave]

And so to me, there's a lot of that that's been happening and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's what needs to happen. But the thing that is interesting about this, and this is why I find it funny, is even through the tariff tantrum, Bitcoin didn't go below what, 74, 75. And that was correlated risk assets with risk assets hanging in there because of the liquidity that's coming into the market to expect that Bitcoin's going to drop below this. It doesn't make sense. The people who wanted to sell can sell at 100,000 and they can be patient and they can wait. They have been patient historically. So why would we expect them to keep selling? The sellers, if, as it gets through, if it goes below 100, are speculative sellers, not, not those sellers. Because there's not, it's not like they're selling because they need to. People who compared today to 2022 are missing, literally the story. The story 2022 people were forced to sell. You were in Voyager, you were in Celsius, you got, you got sold out from under you. You were in ftx.

[Scott]

You got sold out at the dead bottom.

[Dave]

At the dead bottom.

[Scott]

I think Voyager sold Bitcoin at 18. I think Voyager sold Bitcoin between 18 and 20,000.

[Dave]

Dropped by 60%.

[Gary]

I think what's happening here is you have, for the first time in crypto history, you have a way for people with $300 coins to have a very tax efficient liquidity event. That's what this is about. And until all that gets flushed out, I mean, the savings for these guys, look, if you're holding on to $10 billion or a billion dollars worth of bitcoin, you're sitting here going, trump's not going to be in office one day and my taxes are probably going to go up. When am I going to ever get the chance to clean my money, clean my coins? By the way, there are some coins that are a little, little, little dirty. So there's so many. I think that's what's happening here. All these ETFs and the SBRs are allowing people to do this in a very tax efficient way.

[Andre]

Yeah, if I can jump in for a second, I, I agree with everything Dave and Gary are saying. I think on the, the other, the one thing, maybe I'll mention this one first. The other thing that I think sometimes goes under the radar is the changing in demographics. The demographic profile of early bitcoin adopters. And I think there's this idea, perhaps a misconception that bitcoin early bitcoin adopters were these teenagers wearing hoodies. And I've sat on countless calls with bitcoiners in their 40s and I'm sitting in the phone call with the wife and they're both talking to me about buying that home that the wife really wants. And the person is reluctant to sell the bitcoin and they end up taking a loan again to Gary's point, because it's very tax efficient for them to take some of that profit and upgrade their, their lifestyle. A lot of these people are having their second, third kid and it's very important for them to actually put some of that wealth to work. And they can do that in various ways. They could do that in a tax efficient MANNER through these ETFs. They can do that as well with, with bitcoin back loans that are now you, way more tested and way more reliable. There's, there's, you know, companies like us that have withstood all the volatility throughout the years. And I think the demographic change is something that shouldn't go unnoticed because a lot of these people are expected to or expect to at some point upgrade their day to day. And I think it's a very natural course of action. This is why I agree so much with what both Dave and Gary are saying.

[Scott]

I'm struggling with the platform here. I keep getting cut off. So sorry about that. Anybody else? Dave, do you see hands? I can't see anything.

[Dave]

I only see Mauricio. Oh, Andre just raised his hand.

[Scott]

I don't even see Andre existing.

[Gary]

Maybe Mario can see him. He can help you.

[Scott]

Yeah, Mario's definitely heavily monitoring this. The chat for sure picked out again, still glitching. Welcome back. Sorry guys, I'm trying to bring Perry Ann.

[Gaurav]

I'm trying to bring you on 300 years.

[Scott]

Yeah, trying to bring Perry Anne on stage as well. But for some reason it's neglecting the request. Maybe we're following. I don't know. Go ahead.

[Andre]

So, so maybe just a couple of.

[David]

Observations on the market right now. So we, we've seen these, this long term holder distribution, right. It's no new piece of news. Right. It's been going on for like 2025 most of the time. Right. We've seen though distribution into weakness more recently. Right. We've, we've seen realized profits into the downTurn close to 100k. More recently was the highest amount of realized profits in 2025, the fourth highest. I've just checked the numbers on glass and all was three.

[Perry Ann]

Yeah.

[David]

More than $3 billion realized profits on. What was it, three days ago, I think. But that being said, I mean, I think we've, we've reached the point of sell extortion. Right. And there's a, there's a metric called, literally called seller extortion was created by David. Well, one of these Bitcoin OGs who also created like the PUEL multiple and it essentially measures the percentage of supply and profit times ball. Right.

[Scott]

I lost Andre. Did you guys lose Andre? Yeah, yeah, he's trailed off. My God.

[Dave]

What story you want to go after next? Scott, what are you thinking? All season upon us.

[Gaurav]

You're talking to me.

[Dave]

Well, I saw you lifted, lifted your mic, so you're not.

[Gaurav]

Yeah, yeah, I, I, you know, I'm a, I'm a spoiler of flow, so. Except my own. But I, I pretty much agree to this and I think these guys are winners, definitely. I have insane amount of respect for people who have held themselves through their mining journey and through their holding journey and eventually to only sell it at 100k. They're definitely so much better than me, than losing all of them to my trading strategies on Bitmex where I didn't even realize that I wasn't actually trading on an exchange. I was trading against the exchange. And of course the exchange would win. So that is definitely happening. I'm sure we've gone through similar phases of markets in the life cycle of different assets where they've been stable for a long time just because the hands were shifting from, let's say, the first set of carriers of value to the second set of carriers. I'm repeating basically to what everyone has said and just attesting to the same. So, no, I don't really have a new perspective on this. I think we all understand the same. The movement of wallets have attested to that. The exchange flows have attested to that. If you're looking at on chain data through various public platforms, as well as through internal access at TRM Labs and chain analysis, essentially it's an open book. I don't think it needs a lot of analysis. And over time, there will be this increasing demand will surpass the supply. And that's the beauty of Bitcoin and its tokenomics, that there will be no coins left out to buy. And that's when the pricings will explode as they've always done right in the pricing market. In the public markets, it's always slowly, slowly, then Suddenly and so you don't have to basically conserve the proportion between, between the supply and price change for today for the supply and price change for tomorrow. Because, because that doesn't really correlate. It's not a directly proportional metrics. So I will, I think we can move to the next topic. This is, this is pretty well validated.

[Perry Ann]

Well, I had a, a question on Mauricio's comment earlier. I think, I think you said that the ETFs provide a tax advantaged way to buy and hold Bitcoin. I was wondering if you could elaborate on what you meant by that.

[Andre]

Yeah, I, I'll defer to the, the security sectors as well. But I believe that both ETFs and these treasury companies allow you to invest BTC in kind and exchange it for shares in the ETF and then you can use those shares to borrow or things with it. But basically it creates a railway or an avenue for you to convert your bitcoins into other assets without necessarily triggering a taxable event. I think David's more well versed on this than I am, so I'll defer to them.

[Dave]

Well, it's certainly true on the treasury side ETFs if the in kind is already set up.

[Andre]

I think it's just for market makers. I think it's just for market makers that they can do that, but I don't think retail can do that yet.

[Dave]

Yeah, yeah, but I mean, Marianne, it's really, but it's, it's, it's Scott's. He is the most succinct way. Buy, borrow, die.

[Perry Ann]

Right? Yeah, well I, I thought that was interesting. I've done that with treasury companies, made investments in crypto that I already had, but I haven't been able to do that with an etf. So if there's one out there, I would love to know about it.

[Scott]

Well, I know it's coming, right, and we've had the SEC discussing it, but that was one of the original sticking points of, of ETF approvals in the first place. When we first got them, the industry wanted in kind and there was only a cash redemption, I think. But you know, we now know that staking is coming. Acton said that Solana already has it in B Sol and I think in kind redemption is coming as well. In kind. I think all of this is just inevitable at this point with this sec. So I guess we'll see. Treasury companies, it's very interesting because a lot of them initially were taking in kind and then when NASDAQ started pushing back and The SEC started looking deeper. A lot of them pivoted. I know that Ford Industries originally when they were doing their multi billion raise for Solana, multicoin galaxy et cetera, were intending to do Solana in kind. And then because they were told it would take months to delay clear that they ended up doing it in cash.

[Dave]

So yeah, I mean the one thing I will say is that if the Republicans were smart they could make an enormously like a absolutely brilliant, brilliant move before the midterms would be to propose and potentially enact a rule that effectively lowered long term capital gains taxes in exchange for creating capital gains event when you borrow against, you know, basically when you borrow against appreciated securities or appreciated assets. If they did a revenue neutral way of doing that, that would be massive because it would benefit. It would literally, you know, cut the legs out of this oligarch argument that the Democrats keep making. I mean this was Bill Ackman's original idea that he floated a while ago. And everyone kind of knows it's the right thing to do. It's just funny politically will depend on how desperate they are as they see what's happening with inflation in the economy. My guess is they don't do it. But then the next Democrat administration almost certainly will do something like that. Although they won't lower the capital gains tax at the same time, in which case it'll just be revenue. But it is a really interesting question of what will that do? Not targeting Bitcoin at all. We're talking about all appreciated assets sets. But that's an interesting thought.

[Gaurav]

Yeah, I think also if I was to you know, go on.

[Perry Ann]

Yeah, I was going to say I think that that is a smart idea. I was going to give you credit for that. If you didn't mention that somebody else had already said it. I would have thought. Dave, you came up with that the.

[Dave]

Well to be fair I actually been thinking it for a long time. But Bill was the first one who put it out publicly. Just a little bit more reach than I do.

[Perry Ann]

Got it. Okay, well we'll give you the real credit for that. We know you're, you're the mastermind behind that idea. One of the arguments using to make Bitcoin tax free so meaning just removing capital gains taxes from bitcoin altogether is because it provides an incentive for individuals to own Bitcoin directly as opposed through an etf. And that encourages further decentralization of Bitcoin. So just walk through that one step further. The ETFs are obviously securities, right. These are registered products with the sec. So you can't really, you know, you can't really take the capital gains tax away from, you know, any kind of security product like, like, like an etf. But for just holding bitcoin directly, you know, we think that shouldn't be a taxable event. And in many countries it's not. So just while we're talking about different proposals that can be put forward to create tax advantage opportunities, I think there's a lot to be said for. If Trump wants the US to be the crypto capital of the world and he wants to be the first pro bitcoin president, something that he could do to protect and further and foster the bitcoin ecosystem is to encourage, encourage decentralization of bitcoin. So while of course we support, you know, these products of ETFs that have been extremely successful over the past couple of years, it does create very large centralization of bitcoin holdings on Wall Street. So one way to, you know, encourage people to hold directly is to remove the capital gains tax altogether. So that's my big pitch on making bitcoin tax free. Still working on that.

[Scott]

Yeah. At least for smaller transactions. Yeah.

[Gary]

Go ahead, Gary perryanne, How do you square that? If I hold gold.

[Perry Ann]

Yeah, I just got a convention treasury of it. That's the, that's the hurdle. And you know, the other thing with putting forward any type of tax proposal, Republicans are very, very hesitant to put their name behind something that's not budget neutral. So if you're removing, even though this is kind of counterintuitive. Right. Because Republicans are usually very supportive of lowering taxes on American people. So you would think, okay, let's lower taxes for bitcoin investors. But no, that's going to create a lot of revenue loss for the Treasury. Therefore, that's not something they want to get behind. So you've got to find creative ways, like make up the revenue too, which is the challenge.

[Gary]

Hey, Scott, I don't think Perry Ann can hear me, but ask her, how do you square up? How do you treat gold or crude oil? I mean, we can't just start picking assets out and go, okay, I want that to be capital gains free. When I'm holding gold, I have to pay capital gains tax or crude oil.

[Scott]

So how do we square that? Perriann, are you able to hear Gary? I don't think she can hear me either.

[Dave]

Yeah, Perryne, can you hear me?

[Perry Ann]

Yeah, I can hear you now. I couldn't hear. I could not hear anything for a bit.

[Scott]

Okay, I'm just gonna Drop you and bring you back up. Okay, go ahead Dave, and then I'll do it.

[Dave]

Yeah, Gary was asking the question about how you square it. My answer by the way, you know, which you do have to pay capital gains on. My answer is if the US wants to see bitcoin price appreciates because they own a bunch of then you know, they gain revenue by allowing it. But the more important point is Bitcoin can be spent directly. Try going in and using gold shavings to go buy a hamburger. Not, not going to work too well. And if, if the idea is you want Bitcoin to be something to be a currency or a savings vehicle, then you it making a tax advantage is, is a reasonable thing. Going to no capital gains I think is going to be a problem because of the revenue neutral side. But I think from a de minimis point of view, if you want people to be able to use it, be paid in it and spend it, it's almost impossible if you have to pay capital gains tax every time you buy a cup of coffee.

[Perry Ann]

And that's exactly why we are where I mean you've hit the nail on the head with that point in 2014 when the IRS just came out and declared that Bitcoin would be taxed as property, that, that you know, pushed and, and tax policy is used to human behavior. So that, that had a huge impact on Bitcoin emerging as a store of value as opposed to a peer to peer electronic cash system which is what Satoshi coined, coined it and called it. So tax has a huge, it has major implications for how it's been adopted over the years. And I've been in bitcoin since 2011. So early days we didn't really know how this was going to be adopted, what this was going to grow into. I mean many people thought this would be peer to peer electronic cash system, it'd be used for payments the term of like digital gold. And using it as a store of value that wasn't really something that was widely accepted or discussed until many years later. So I do think here we are in 2025, we have the first pro Bitcoin president. We can rethink how we did things in 2014. And now with the Chevron deference that's been struck down, there's also an argument to be made that Congress did not give the IRS the authority to regulate Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies and that that can be reversed. So there's some legal cases to be to be made there. But Gary, I'm glad. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, but I'm glad you asked about gold. I'm a. I initially went to D.C. to follow Congressman Ron Paul. I've always been very inspired by his work and I personally lean libertarian in my political views. Ron Paul served in Congress for 24 years. One of his notable pieces of legislation that never got passed into law, but he reintroduced them term after term after term. One was called the Competing Currencies act and what was put in place to create the monopoly on the US Dollar. So my. In terms of how do we make Bitcoin tax free, I think we can dust off Ron Paul's Competing Currencies act, which says we should remove the capital gains tax on gold, silver, platinum and palladium. Let's add Bitcoin in there because in this is how it was prior to the Fed coming in and demanding that we use US Dollars for currencies, allow for competing currencies, allow the free market to dictate, you know, what the winners are going to be for payments. But in a free country, we should be able to use whatever we want to buy and sell our goods. So I think we can remove capital gains on all of those pieces, Bitcoin included, and then we can just take a straight, principled approach to it. But then for Bitcoin, obviously, we want to foster not only free markets, but we want to further support the decentralization of the network. And that's an added benefit. And another added benefit is the privacy piece of it. So if you have to disclose your Bitcoin wallet address to the IRS or the US treasury, now we have a Fourth Amendment issue because your transactions can be monitored and watched by Big Brother. So Americans have a right to privacy that includes digital privacy. And we should not have to disclose our. Our wallet addresses our Bitcoin addresses to, to the government either.

[Scott]

Gary, were you able to hear her?

[Gary]

Yeah, no, I heard her. I just. I'm trying to differentiate. I think what she's talking about is small retail transactions.

[Scott]

That's what's being exploded.

[Perry Ann]

I still can't hear it.

[Gary]

No, we're aware of that.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I'm gonna drop your request again, please.

[Dave]

Although, Gary, I think that. That it's very, very clear, very clear that perryann is, is taking the. The approach, and by the way, which I completely agree with, that, that people should have the ability to opt out of inflation as a tax, that you should be able to do something with your money if the dollar is being debased. It was never intended that, you know, income taxes is one thing, but it was never intended that you should be paying taxes.

[Gary]

But then we just need to reform all the taxes.

[Dave]

Well, that's true. Well, that was her point.

[Gary]

If you're talking about microtransactions. Okay, got it. But like what happens when I want to use $40 million of Bitcoin to buy a house? That's a retail transaction, man.

[Dave]

No, I, I agree with you. I'm saying drawing lines is very.

[Gaurav]

If I was to represent. Yeah. If I was to give a devil's advocate view here. Well, the tax can still stay on the real estate. And so it does serves the fact that crypto or bitcoin in this particular case serves as the tax free, you know, people's currency. Again, I'm not advocating that. I'm just being a devil's advocate, Gary. I hope it makes sense.

[Gary]

Yeah, look, I, I'm not a big believer in. I love bitcoin and I think bitcoin has never gotten anything from any government other than hassle. And I prefer not to get anything from them, not to ask for them other than law. And see, I like Perian because I think Perry Ann's prop. Perry Ann needs to run because we need, we need a young Ron Paul that says, hey, these taxes are bullshit, but I just don't think that it's going to serve bitcoin well to try to single us out. The other thing is you take away all the capital gains on bitcoin, assume this price is going to go down hard. So, you know, be careful what you wish for. I don't think this is going to happen. But now, now what I would support and I would actually spend bitcoin to do it. Let's just throw the entire system up now. That's what we should have some lobbyists like Perry Ann doing. Like really help us get there because. And I think we could get there, but you can't do it by picking out one asset class. I don't think.

[Gaurav]

Again, on the contrarian purview. I think, of course, like you said, Gary, the global tax reform systems definitely have to go through and shape and form of value and money. But in the current state of things, including the U.S. we're doing just about fine because that tax regime sort of enables the bureaucracy of the country to sort of have incentives to keep working on that asset class and keep enabling the industry around that. And of course I know crypto has not been enabled through the tax regime contribution, but more so the private contribution to elections. But I think not Every government or every aspect of the government would always lean on to that factor. So, so, so tax of, of every single segment of assets sort of is the innate incentive for, for the system to keep working on that and the development of that segment. So I'm totally in agreement with you.

[Perry Ann]

I think, Gary, what you're referring to is the wash trading. So if bitcoin loses value, you can wash trade it, you can take the loss and then you can use the losses for tax advantaged purposes. But there's also tax, there's also talks and today wash trading with bitcoin, you can do that. There's no regulations impeding us from doing that. And some of the better platforms will even facilitate it for you like River.com, they'll set it up for you, they'll run the transaction for you and give you like a statement for, to give to your accountant for taxes. So there's tax of removing that benefit for bitcoin. So I don't know, maybe I'm just going to one up you here, Gary. I'm going to say if I'm really not holding anything back, not planning on running for office, but if I were to run for office, I think I'd say let's just abolish the IRS altogether. The income tax is a form of indentured servitude and let's get rid of the IRS altogether. That, that's my unabridged position.

[Gary]

Love it. And I'll vote for you, dude. Let's roll. That's exactly what I meant.

[Perry Ann]

Love that.

[Scott]

I'm just glad.

[Gary]

Yeah.

[Dave]

A lot of votes in the libertarian community, you know it. But, you know, but the de minimis stuff and all this other stuff is true. I just, I kind of want to pivot a little bit. Scott, one of the stories that we didn't talk about this morning but I think is actually important and maybe, maybe I'm being a little tinfoil hat here, but the fact that China is accusing and supposedly seriously considering suing the US Government for its recent appropriation of it was a pretty sizable amount of bitcoin for our strategic reserve from the, what is it, child trafficking ring, whatever, I think is actually underestimated of how important that is. And the reason I say that is if China didn't view Bitcoin as. Jesus, I hate this. If they didn't view bitcoin as a strategically important asset, would they do that or would they do it in that way? And if they do start viewing bitcoin as a strategically important asset, given that They've been driving gold purchases and they've been driving and they have not been buying as many Treasuries. There is some significant meaning behind that. I'm curious what people think because as a way of building a strategic reserve the US is already way ahead of where they would be even under the Lummis act. If it sticks, surely.

[Scott]

Are these the coins from the pig slaughtering thing or the UK one?

[Dave]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Pig butchering, whatever.

[Gaurav]

Yeah, yeah. But Dave, you know there is no question about the sincerity of China in terms of what they think about, about bitcoin. I don't know if you've seen this recently published chart that is from New Hedge that's doing roundabout about Internet. The Internet beyond the 326000 something you know BTC held by United States. Held by United States. Not, not holdings in treasury but I mean held under different circumstances. The only second to them is China with 190000 bitcoins and United Kingdom with only 61 000. So you can see the, the difference after US and China is like very small and you know after that is UAE and Ukraine, whatever. Very small numbers, less than 50,000. So first of all, just to steer the conversation in the right direction, there is no doubt about China's sincerity on all forms and shape of value. And for those who are, I mean Gary would probably attest to this but for those who have been in, in the real estate, global real estate, they understand that China's build their dominance in that also including half of you know, Canary Wharf and central London be known by Chinese and Chinese dominated territories. Italian and leather and fashion industries. You go into any single segment.

[Dave]

I want to push back a bit more of that on that because I, I think you're, I think you're actually right in fact, but wrong in, in opinion. Meaning that the crypto industry there is nobody who would have. You would literally be having really serious mental deficiency if you believed that China had that view. Believe bitcoin was parry passu with those things and building value and doesn't have the ability to buy if it starts falling to the point to where people are talking crypto winter. I mean so many people over the last week called for massive falls in the price of bitcoin. There is literally no way that happens. Bitcoin is so small relative to China's gold holdings, treasury holdings, et cetera. If they truly believe and does. When he hears about pork chops to Bitcoin below 90, below 80, whatever, et cetera, it just doesn't happen. And so I don't believe the crypto community believes that's true. I think that they still have this idiotic mindset that China hates bitcoin for a variety of reasons and doesn't see it as a geopolitical tool. I think that game theory, that narrative is very real and I think you think it's very real. But I think there are a lot of people who don't believe it.

[Gaurav]

Yeah, I'm in 100% agreement with you. I am simply trying to express the fact that countries and institutional investors, I mean some of them, they don't take one thing seriously. Like that's what makes them incredible investors. They don't put all their eggs in one basket. They don't play by a single rule of thumb, let's put it that way. And so they don't go all guns blazing in one single direction. And that's what I was trying to reasonable role in the capitalization of value. And when I say value, I mean all the avenues of value to mankind. And that could be distribution of fashion equipment, distribution of electronics, owning real estate in the most valuable land pieces or land sites of the world, crypto gold. And if you were to again, just to attest to what you said about bitcoin, if that mindset is sort of complemented on gold, gold just fell by a few good numbers in the past month. And of course China did not go to buy it. And, and of course we understand that the amount of capital they can push in, if it was their first line of defense against the global financial, let's say crisis or US induced, let's say financial crisis, then they would have actually gone out and bought out gold at that price. But that's what I think we all would agree that large and sensible investors, they keep building their position slowly. They don't go out all guns blazing in one side and they are actively hedging everything. So that's their position. They're not betting 100% on Bitcoin, but they're also not betting against bitcoins is probably what would make a better sense from my standpoint.

[Dave]

That's fair. Yeah. Anyone else on that?

[Scott]

Because I love that. The story though is that governments are vying to create strategic bitcoin reserves by figuring out who can steal the bitcoins better. I mean, didn't Pakistan announce that they were going to do a billion dollar bitcoin reserve in bitcoin that they take from criminals that they haven't taken yet? Like we're just going to Go find a billion dollars in crime related bitcoin in Kazakhstan and take that and make it our reserve.

[Perry Ann]

Very on brand for government for sure, I think. Well, I have a lot of questions about this particular development and Dave, I'm glad you brought it up because it is really fascinating. It's super interesting that a security clearance. We're not going to really know a lot of these details, but it does absolutely show that government actors clearly see bitcoin as an important asset, otherwise they wouldn't be fighting over it and spending resources on suing each other to try to get it. But I think the part of the story that's actually missing is these are bitcoin and cryptocurrency that were actually stolen from other people. So I think the only right response is giving those bitcoin and trying to distribute those bitcoin back to the actual.

[Scott]

Victims, like Bitfinex for example, who were holding 100,000 of their coins.

[Perry Ann]

Exchanges have been hacked. There's many, many very high powered operations underway to steal from bitcoin whales, investors, retail, all sorts of people too. I mean I was just recently hacked by the Lazarus Group. Thank God they didn't actually steal any of my crypto, but that's what they, they were after. So I would like to see in these law enforcement operations that there's at least an effort to try to give.

[Scott]

Yeah, that was crazy.

[Perry Ann]

Back to the people.

[Scott]

Yeah, they hacked your telegram. Right. And then, and then I was with Jenny, the PR agent. I think she clicked on a link for an invite with you. Hers got hacked and they went to every single one of her clients to try to hack. Crazy. Yeah, but it's not your fault. I'm saying it's just like this endless. They get one and then every person you ever talk to, they hack them and then they hack every other person they've talked to. And yeah, be very careful on telegram is what I would tell people. Dave. Sorry, go ahead.

[Dave]

Now I was going to say maybe the government should hire Sullivan and Cromwell because they've done such a great job of returning value to the FTX people who lost their money there. Sorry, it was a bad joke. But the reality, they've done better than most. Well, Sullivan and Cromwell have done phenomenal. FTX holders, I mean, yeah, you got back your Bitcoin at 16,000. Cool.

[Scott]

Well, Voyager holders got back 30% of their Bitcoin at 18,000, so. Well, I guess it amounted to 60 after the second, so even worse.

[Dave]

Yeah, you'll never.

[Gaurav]

Somebody should talk about Token Gate, please. Why Are we all talking about recent hacks?

[Scott]

I don't even know what that is.

[Gaurav]

My life Token Gate, you don't know? Tokengate was the first exchange that allowed ICOs and ERC20 token sales. So it was a Hong Kong based exchange. The DAO and Digix ICOs were actually sold through only once, only one centralized platform. And yeah, I have a few tens of thousands Ethereum there amongst a few million Ethereums of a whole world of people. Nobody has got a penny so we've come along.

[Scott]

What a crazy space.

[Dave]

That's good.

[Scott]

Well you know, getting paid something apparently is a win.

[Dave]

Sorry Scott.

[Gaurav]

See that's what I was trying to explain that I was, I was fighting for like three, four years to get all the Ethereums back And then they, one, one of those days they said, well you'll only get $48 for Ethereum. And that was the price when we got hacked. And that's what Liquidator said. And I said, you know, even at $48 it's a lot of money, can I please have that? And it's been three years since I've been chasing that. So yeah, getting something for hacked capital I think is already a lot.

[Scott]

Getting hacked or like bankruptcy or getting your assets stolen is like the price of admission for having any meaningful involvement in crypto agency industry. It's unbelievable.

[Gaurav]

Just also add once because people also get that twice or thrice.

[Scott]

Yeah, Dave, you were jumping in, I interrupted you.

[Dave]

Well, I mean it's certainly true and it's also certainly true that until that changes in public perception, that's arguably the single most important thing to change in public perception. Right. You know, in a way the fact that the industry recovered as quickly as it did post FTX is sort of remarkable and I think is a testament. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, that initial rally has basically created a range, the average human being who's not on these spaces that oh well, you know, isn't it much more risky not because of the prices of the investment but just because it could be stolen. So that, that is a big deal. It is non trivial. That's one of the reasons the ETFs have been so successful because people wanted to be in the investment and didn't want to take any of the risk. And there still is quite a bit of that. I don't even think you can deny that that's true. But there's a lot of other stuff that's gone on. What I was going to say is a natural pivot To Gaurav's comment. Gaurav, I'm curious, what do you make of Coinbase's attempt to open up a new ICO market with more transparency? Because I think that's kind of a big deal.

[Gaurav]

So I don't know if I've mentioned that, but One of the CxOs of Coinbase is our investor. And so, I mean, I'm just disclosing something that's almost public, nothing special, but they keep talking about the fact that their North Star is, is to make Coinbase the Amazon of tokens, of course, in a very compliant way. We all know Coinbase has been sticking to compliance and ethics for a long time, and I think this is just an addition to that North Star. They will keep finding ways to make more and more tokens and digital assets available to the world. And then people can choose between memes.

[Scott]

And.

[Gaurav]

Basically non revenue projects and the rare amount of real projects. I mean, that's people's choice. But Coinbase is committed to being the marketplace it's supposed to be.

[Scott]

Yeah, we unpacked that a bit yesterday, but I think it's a net positive, clearly to have a regulated entity with more transparency facilitating token launches.

[Dave]

So.

[Gaurav]

Okay, yeah, even if I was to defend their business side, you know, there's also another problem for those who have lived. I mean, a lot of people here have actually lived through that time and. Sorry, there was a time when, when we were only trading on Poloniex and everything else was shared and, and it took like one and a half to two years. I mean, it's insane to even quote it today, but it took about one and a half to two years to get your KYC done in your account, approved for a 1 million to $5 million daily transfers. And so then Bittrex came and just swept the whole market because there you can actually get your KYC done and do better trading. And then eventually Bitrex started to fail on the KYC and the speed and the reporting and Binance took over. That was much better than that. So what I'm trying to say is there is a market that beats their predecessors on speed, on listings, on availability, and Binance basically stood out because they made everything available to people. So from a business point of view, I don't think there's a caveat to not listing everything and not committing to being the marketplace that you're supposed to be as an exchange. And especially in crypto, the biggest wins are made if you, if. I mean, I advise literally tens of exchanges. I sit on the Board of so many exchanges. And I've taken exchanges from like 100 users to million users. And I can tell you again, it's a public advisory. Everybody can use it. The one thing that works for every single exchange is just go out and list tokens. Just go out and list the most popular meme, go out, list the most ridiculous, unethical scam, and you will get the most number of people registering to your exchange. And so this is not like a super smart idea that only I would know. This is like almost publicly open. So I don't think in the spirit of competition, Coinbase should lose. But that by all means does not mean, I mean, but that does not mean that you can buy everything on Coinbase. If you go on the compliance check metrics of listing a token, it's like stupid. They really don't go into the revenue side. They really don't go and check the business model.

[Scott]

They did list the market makers this time and their percentage and duration.

[Gaurav]

Oh, okay. I'm not sure you saw that, but it's pretty interesting. But basically I'm trying to caution the users of the space that a token listed on Coinbase does not mean that it's the best token in the world for you to buy and that it's a penny stock where you have a chance to make your bitcoin killings again. Like, just do your own research. Don't buy a token because it's listed on one exchange versus another.

[Andre]

I have a quick question on that, Gaurav, since I have you and I think this is a question I've always asked myself. If the game is to list as many and as fast and the most ridiculous things out there without any sort of concern of what they are as an investment thesis or who's behind them, et cetera, how is a regulated entity like Coinbase with listing standards, et cetera, even as lax as they might be, how are they supposed to compete with decentralized like Dexes, who are basically spinning up these things left, right and center with no compliance and no and no. You know, their speed to market has to be faster. Their ability to do things or iterate has to be faster because they're not subject to any of this compliance overhead. So how do you see that playing out?

[Gaurav]

You're absolutely correct. There is no competition between them and Dexs and everything else. But the competition is on the other qualities, let's say qualitative values, the experience, the KYC on ramp, off ramp, the number of traders and volumes, the way the business is run, of course, These are certain other metrics that would create user to stick around a certain platform versus a Dex. Regardless, to mention Dexs have the biggest problem Dexs have is front running and MEV and sniping attacks. And so I think it all plays out well and balances well in the overall space. And both are growing. I mean I don't think anyone could debate the growth factor of Dexs against Xs. I think they're all growing in their respective space. We have 7 billion people in the world with 7 billion possibilities and perceptions. So we will find our avenues to play our game.

[Dave]

I think that does it make sense? Yeah, yeah it makes perfect sense. I mean look, the interesting thing will be when there's actually a sworn in CFTC commissioner and full board of commissioners what their policy directions will be assuming either clarity or the more recent bill that gives them the ability to regulate spot because the United States has this regulatory agenda which is kind of fucked up today. It's called the SRO set up self regulatory organizations where exchanges in the equity markets are actually regulators. And there are many people like me who think that made sense when they were mutualized nonprofit organizations. It makes no sense when they're for profit. But the fact that there is no regulator in crypto that looks at listing standards at all or even has a set of disclosures that are clear, that's not going to stay forever. There will be a regime that says these are things that can trade on regulated entities. And at that point you get, you end up with a very interesting situation today we have these things called, you know, there's trading in what we call the national market system for securities and those are all regulated. And then there's others which are the OTC market. And yes, you know I'm very, I'm friends with the guy, you know, Cromwell Colson who built OTC markets which is where the pink sheet stuff trade. That's kind of the stuff that you may have read about and or seen in movie Boiler Room and stuff like that or Wolf of Wall street but that stuff is much, much less regulated. It's really easy to get up and running. I think that the precedent for the Dexes to be more like that and for the sexes to be more like the national market system under some sort of modern regulatory regime is where it's going to go here in this country. Now I'm not guessing about this in the sense of I actually have talked to people who are currently in various places in government who believe that that makes sense. Perri Ann, you talk to them more than I do. I'm curious, you know, I don't talk to anyone on the Hill. I'm talking about regulator types. What do you think? Do you think that that's a reasonable prediction based on where the negotiations under Clarity are going? You know what do you, I'm just curious because you obviously are much closer to the legislative side.

[Perry Ann]

Yeah, well, what's in the legislation is actually going to have very big implications for all commodities markets, which I don't know if most people fully understand that is, is a big deal. But essentially it gives the CFTC spot market oversight over digital assets. So today the CFTC does not have spot market oversight of commodities, which means they're just, they only have enforcement authority and they're only surveying derivatives, futures markets, not, not the spot market. So that's going to change. So we're going to see massive, massive changes to how the CFTC operates once the Clarity act passes into law. SROs are not a part of that discussion today, but they could be. So it is still possible that Congress would give the CFTC spot market authority and then the CFTC could put, could designate and put in place an sro, which would work, you know, more similar to traditional markets, you know, as you've outlined. But today there's not really a discussion around SROs. So there's still a lot to work out. We're still in really early days. Even after the Clarity act passes, hopefully this year, it's still going to take a couple of years to implement that, potentially longer. And there's, that's also part of why there's now a rush to get a CFTC chairman confirmed. Congress is very hesitant to really move forward with legislation that really changes the structure of the agency without anyone in place. So there's a lot of moving parts here. I actually am a fan of SROs because, you know, government is not efficient at all. But there's, you know, there's pros and cons to, to that too, but I think it should be a part of the discussion.

[Dave]

Oh, by the way, to be clear, I am not against the concept of SROs. I am against the concept of for profit competing SROs that can use regulation as a weapon in their competition. And I say that from a very specific viewpoint, one that will be in my book where I actually was told by upper management to leave the floor at Solomon Smith Barney because Dick Grasso was visiting and he knew my management knew that I'm a little bit stubborn and would stand up to him and tell him the New York Stock Exchange has no right to stop us from market making because I built our electronic market maker that was upstairs. I literally was told to leave. And the reason was they don't want Dick, who has all that regulatory power to be able to take use it against Solomon because he got pissed off that some, and I quote, snot nose little kid is telling him how he should run his business, unquote. By the way, that was a, that, that literally was a direct quote which he, he used to the person who ran equities there. So I mean, I have a very specific way of looking at it. But no, I don't have any issue with SROs. I think that in general, having industry representation in creating rules makes a hell of a lot more sense than just always being dictated by the government. It's a little bit nuanced, but I just.

[Perry Ann]

Yeah, thank you for the clarification.

[Dave]

Yeah, so I just, I just want to be clear. I don't want to be stated as the other way. But anyway. And here we are. Bitcoin is below 102. So guess Scott, it's time to panic. We got to put our.

[Scott]

Yeah, it died. Literally. We killed it on this show.

[Dave]

Yeah, clearly it's our fault. So sorry everyone.

[Scott]

Sorry everybody. We have now pumped and crashed to levels not seen since yesterday. Amazing.

[Mauricio]

There you go. Look, Wednesday is hump day. We had to hump something, right?

[Dave]

Yeah. David, it's your fault. You're the one who. You're right for the show.

[Mauricio]

During the show I just rained on your parade. I'm sorry, man. I owe you big time, okay? I'll even give Scott his bitcoin back.

[Scott]

Ouch.

[Dave]

Okay, well, I don't want to go there.

[Perry Ann]

The pig butchering scam.

[Scott]

Whatever. Guys, I really thought that he, he, she loved me, you know, I went to my bitcoin ATM and I deposited money for my long lost lover in Cambodia. Anyways, that's all we've got for you today. Hopefully our title tomorrow won't be bitcoin holds below 100k because God knows what's coming next. It's been a great show as usual and we will see you guys tomorrow. Thank you everybody. Have a great day.

[Gaurav]

Thank you.