← The Wolf Of All Streets
The Wolf Of All Streets
Bull Market Over? Special Guest Aptos - The All American Chain | CryptoTownHall
01:05:18
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- [00:00]
Scott
Can't believe the bull market's over, Dave.
- [00:03]
Dave
Yeah, I mean we're back.
- [00:05]
Scott
You came up with the title. You, you were used the word dead so.
- [00:08]
Dave
Yeah, well, you know, crazy. I mean these, you know, a three day period in August or we go up a few percent and we go down a few percent, it's all over. I mean if you look, if you look at crypto, Twitter, that's what people think. I mean, I don't know. I mean I, I was on a spaces last night before it rugged and I made the point that people in crypto have the attention span of, of, of hummingbirds. I could have used fruit flies because their entire life cycle is a week. I mean, you know people, it just, just get nuts and it's, it's actually kind of amusing. But you know, there's a couple of stories that are funny today. I mean the first one is besent in the middle of an interview that I don't know how long the interview was, but there's like a 30 second clip which caused like a total insane freakout that what he said was completely rational. He basically, first of all he was talking about we meaning US treasury, who obviously they do what the President says, they do what Congress says. They have certain powers. They don't. He said, well we won't be buying it. And so therefore people said, okay, there'll never be a bitcoin reserve there. Let's be clear. There will never be a bitcoin strategic reserve funded by buying purchases of bitcoin in the open market without congressional ability to do so. But he said something else which was fascinating. He didn't say seized bitcoin. He said seize the assets. Which, which is, which is very, very different. And people don't understand the nuance there. Meaning, you know, whatever they could see, they do a drug bust, they seize assets, you know, whatever. They seize currency that could be converted into bitcoin. They seize, you know, xrp. I mean I'm just picking out whatever, but it's just amusing. I mean it was just an offhand comment. People go crazy. I mean the reality is nothing much has changed except on the macro side, inflation. The inflation print was pretty ugly. That said, you know, this, this, you know, we could have a deep macro conversation we will do on Monday. But you know, this is, this is your basic, you know, it must be Thursday, right? In crypto land.
- [02:12]
Scott
Yeah. I mean it is interesting when you see technically an all time high or any key level sort of swept and then you see an immediate reaction to the Downside, it just maybe gives a hint that will back to go back to ranging, which is what we should do in August anyways. Right? Right.
- [02:28]
Dave
Well, that, that's bitcoin. I mean, you know, you know, ether is still banging up. I mean it's. What, what is it? It's fallen. You know, went from. I guess it got to as high. Did it get to 49? I wasn't paying attention. I thought I saw for it. I think it just pinged 48. Now it's at 46. I mean it's like really that, that's what's the freak out. I mean, you know, Solana's at 195. If you had woken up three days ago and said salon is going to 195 in three days, you said, oh, okay. Things are, things are looking up. You know, it's. Yeah. Look, people who overreact to short term things. It really depends on, on what is your thesis and where are you going? You know, I thought I didn't watch Rand's show this morning, you know, crypto banter, but his title was basically no, the Alt season's not over, etc. And generally I, I put this up here because frankly I wanted to trigger Gorov, who I see is here. So I'm sure you have plenty to say about, about this price action. You know, it's always good. We can get some, some, you know, get, get, get some contrary opinions going here in crypto town hall. Right. Gaurav, how are you? Yeah.
- [03:33]
Scott
And you can get a market maker on stage.
- [03:38]
Gaurav
Well, for clarity, this market maker is a designated market maker for altcoins. I am not making Bitcoin and Ethereum market as much as I wish I would be, but that would already make me an established multi billionaire, which I'm not for now. So that's the clarity about market making. Yesterday I landed in New York and throughout my immigration everybody understood that I was into crypto because I was on calls with my trading team left, right and center for a lot of things and, and we sort of removed all our positions from everything else and brought it to the, the top Ethereum ecosystem. So Arbitrum OP optimism and so on and so forth. Of course this is not a financial advice. This is what yesterday and then four hours later, by the time we were in the Arbitrum events here in New York, all the side events of Ethereum NYC, these tokens were up 20, 30 and 10%, including at reaching the price points where I expected them to be. I wouldn't say Predicted. Expected is a better word. And as soon as that happened, I said, okay guys, let's exit. This is not real. Something has to happen happen. Now, as much as I wish it would go in a straight line, God candles, it wouldn't. I mean, it just can't. So what you said, Dave, that, you know, on the, on the line of a stupid post that doesn't even like makes a real financial impact to the industry, the whole market crash. I would just compliment it. The market had to crash.
- [05:32]
Scott
Wow, what a time for him to cut out.
- [05:35]
Dave
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if we were totally. I had to glance down and say, oh, did we rug? Nope.
- [05:41]
Scott
Oh, we lost you. I don't know, maybe. Maybe he got a call from his trading team. I don't know. Probably. We'll get him back up in a minute. We got you back. Go ahead.
- [05:53]
Gaurav
It was not the market. I mean, I think I said the crash word too loud. X crashed on my phone.
- [06:00]
Dave
So.
- [06:01]
Gaurav
So the market. I mean this is, this is very, very usual. What's surprising is it seems like even the crypto retail has, has built a conscious or has built an awareness towards this because, you know, when you, when, if you'd go to the last two.
- [06:17]
Dave
Years.
- [06:19]
Gaurav
The liquidations usually range somewhere from 2 billion and more. And so far the reported liquidations are just, you know, in north of 700 million. So I mean, I think, I think we're doing good and I think the market either, either we have. So the only two obvious outcomes or assumptions that I could make on this result is either we have built this awareness in the crypto ecosystem or there is this insane buy pressure from probably the DAT core somewhere, all the datcos, all the digital asset treasury companies that has sort of retained the price levels through their purchase. So I think, I mean, it'll be, it'll be good to understand what people think about it.
- [07:14]
Scott
And Dave, a lot of people are pointing to ppi, by the way, but that was sort of the second leg of it. It was already down, I think 120, mid 121, 20, 20,500 or something before I think the PPI numbers dropped. So that rejection technically had already happened. I mean, it's probably worth discussing PPI a little further because it came in at 0.9 with expected 0.2. And of course that comes a day after we had a quote unquote 100% chance of rate cuts, which is the stupidest thing, how many times we had 100% chance of rate cuts in the last three years that we've talked about a macro Monday. Listen, I may be, according to Twitter, I may have a 65 IQ, but I've been pretty consistent, I've been pretty consistent about saying that whatever predictions we're getting on rate cuts are almost always wrong.
- [08:06]
Dave
Well, I mean, look it. And the short rate isn't even what matters the most. What matters is the direction. And what matters is the total money supply and whether or not we're gonna end up in a form of QE of some sort. And you know, all of those things are likely, but you know, markets are markets and people will continue to fixate on, you know, on those things. As far as crypto is concerned, the two biggest things that matter are in the bitcoin case of bitcoin and really in the case of all crypto, it's really adoption and it's really, you know, there's a lot of other news and every other piece of news is positive. Right? You know, Goro could probably go through, you know, 7, 8, 10, you know, n number of alts where there's, there's positive adoption news. I mean, we talk about bitcoin all the time. You know, it's the one piece of negative news, weirdly for, you know, some altcoins is the, you know, what, what I will call the short term. But we kind of knew it would happen. You know, what's the word I'm trying to think about? You know, I'm, I'm thinking of, of the Tower of Babel effect on stable coins where everybody's going to try to launch their own layer one and you know, that it just makes the free, the ultimate free for all, you know, important, you know, in terms of what, what layers will happen, but other than that, pretty much every other piece. And by the way, that's also ridiculously positive for bitcoin if you actually think through where the chessboard's going to go. So, I mean, look, there's a lot of stories that we could talk about, you know, ppi, CPI and PPI are, we're going to see revisions, we're going to see all sorts of stuff. They're going to figure out ways to square with the data. The thing that people, and it's so politicized, it's crazy. The thing that people continue to forget is the BLS has been expert. Well, not expert. They've screwed up a lot, but they have had a methodology of changing the numbers or smoothing numbers. In cpi, they call it hedonics, which is substitution effects. They do this and they've been doing it for 40 years now in order to make the headline reported number look better than it actually is. And we know this is true. And so don't expect that to change just because we have a new person in who may very well be instructed to make it even more so, who knows what you know about all that, that sort of data. But look, there's nothing major different today than yesterday, with the exception of a lot more doubt in people's mind about whether the US government is going to smash by bitcoin, which, by the way, they would never in a billion years do. But now they're, now people have come up and the Treasury Secretary said they're not going to. So they said, okay, so this is a big deal. But that to me is, is the story. And it just takes people down, up and down with it.
- [10:59]
Scott
Let's jump to the panel, see what they think is going on. Austin, you got a new. You got a new face, dude. Technically, I mean, I guess it's your old face.
- [11:09]
Dave
Now.
- [11:09]
Austin
It looks like it doesn't actually look like me. All of the credit goes to my head of creative who actually made me look good here. So thank you, Shirley, because I know.
- [11:20]
Scott
It'S just very hard for me to, you know, recognize people when they change their avatars.
- [11:24]
Austin
I'm actually not an eight bit cartoon character. I know that's shocking to many people thinking I'm a caricature on the Internet. But, okay, so alt season, I'm gonna give everybody one indicator. I'm watching to tell you that I think the current rally is not dead, which is we literally are in a span of having a new L1 launch every single day. Right. Like, we're at the point with all these news releases that if on Friday, like, you know, we have Powell come out and say the Fed's launching at L1, I'm just gonna laugh and shake my head because we've gotten to the point where so many people are now around with adopting this technology. And let's be clear, most of it's not work. But that's fine. That's the way experimentation works that it's hard for me to think there's not a lot more interest coming. If you've got like stripe launching at lwada now Circle is going to launch it out wanted. Wait, you know that somebody else will be doing it like tomorrow. And the amount of people who are getting interested, who were not previously interested is significant. The other part is the public narrative is shifting. Like yesterday, everybody probably noticed the let's call it conspiracy theory around Google banning self custodial wallets, which not true. I know their head of crypto over there, Rich, that I'm, I'm going to give my take. Rich didn't directly tell me this, but I'm reading tea leaves. I think this was a junior lawyer who didn't talk to the crypto team before publishing a policy. But even Google now had to come out with a statement saying they're very in favor of self custodial technology. They're building their own L1. So if you look at all of the data, there should be more and more capital coming. And David, something you and I have talked about on here before, all of this takes a long time, right? This is 6 to 12 to 18 months. So there's going to be a lot of chops here, but there's more firepower than people think coming behind a lot of these things right now.
- [13:13]
Dave
Yeah, I mean, look Austin, my thesis and you and I have agreed on this is that the entire rail, the rails underneath the entirety of the financial system are being rebuilt. And ultimately there will be winners and losers. Ultimately there will be some very major things that happen. The, the, the banking lobby is delusional. I mean, you know, in terms of thinking and you had an interesting post yesterday about stables which, you know, in terms of workarounds in the banking lobby, et cetera, et cetera. But look, the truth is there's six plus trillion dollars in trap deposits that are held in banks at 0.5% or lower interest. That number will get cut I believe by 80 to 90% within two years. It's going to take most of those two years though for the Rails to happen to do that. But I think that's a very big difference and that's a lot of more money that's going to flow back into investment products, whether yield chasing or Bitcoin or whatever that matters. And that's just the top end. You know, there's also CDs who needs a CD and lock up for a defined period of time of a year at 1 to 2% below market because that's the best thing that a bank can do. And that's another big pile of money. So you know, there's a lot of trap money in our economy that's going to get, that's going to flow free. And that's the good news. The bad news is there's going to be a lot of competition, right? And to see where you know which protocols win or lose. And I think that's your point? Do you agree, Austin, before we go on to Tony and the next one.
- [14:49]
Austin
No, I do agree. And like I'll remind everybody, you know, technological innovation is non linear and somewhat chaotic. Like I would just tell everyone, go back to like 1995 and look at all of the Internet companies that existed then and how many of them are big today, baby, every aol. And all I'm saying here is the net benefits will definitely accrue to the economy and the consumers, but picking specific winners and losers out of the blockchains, tokens, companies, et cetera is more difficult than people think.
- [15:23]
Dave
Yeah, well, that's why people like Gaurav and others are so important in this space and why the markets are not efficient. I mean, there's a lot, I mean, it's sad, it really is sad when most of the people on Crypto Town hall have to go to history books to know your answer. And when you mentioned 1995 and 96, I can actually flash to where I was, what I was doing. And I remember Lycos and all the, all of the various search engines that were coming up in the late 90s that were going to be the next big thing. And it's just, it's deja vu all over again. Anyway, enough of me reminiscing. I couldn't tell.
- [15:57]
Scott
Scott, Tony. Tony and Andre. So go ahead, Tony, then Andre.
- [16:01]
Dave
Right.
- [16:03]
Tony
Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Scott. With regards to the bitcoin reserve and Scott, sense comments about not buying bitcoin, I was talking about this since the beginning of the year. That's going to be a hard sell to Congress. And when we haven't even gotten market structure legislation passed yet. Like we can't put the card before the horse here, so. And why would the United States look to buy near the top of the market? I think it would be smart. If they wait for prices to go down, I think they will eventually buy. But I think people are overreacting and not really thinking logically about what's been going on in Congress trying to get the genius bill, trying to get market structure through. And we'll see how the market structure vote goes. I'm hearing a lot of Democrats are, you know, ready to put up a fight, but we got to get that in place before we even get some sort of legislation that allows us to buy bitcoin. And then with regards to altcoin season, I mean, this is just one of those whales playing the market. I mean, it's your typical, you know, flush out. We saw the flush out of the shorts recently now, the longs, I think we're still on track. Treasury companies are buying all coins. And then you look at bitcoin dominance and USD USDT dominance, everything, everything's still on track.
- [17:15]
Scott
Yeah, but that presumes, Tony, what you just said presumes that the United States government thinks that crypto is going much lower.
- [17:24]
Tony
What's it. Oh, for buying.
- [17:26]
Scott
Kind of saying that the United States government wants to buy a dip from here. Right.
- [17:32]
Tony
Well, I'm not saying. I think in the bear market, in a sense, like, why would, why would the treasury look to go buy bitcoin now? Again, legislation has to be put into place. You have to sell Congress on it. But why the hell would you go buy near the top?
- [17:45]
Dave
Right.
- [17:46]
Tony
Versus waiting till late 2026 or 2027?
- [17:49]
Scott
Well, I think by 2026 or 2027, we might be triple the price, but.
- [17:54]
Dave
Right, but I mean, the thing that you have to understand, regardless of timing markets, the one thing that is most clear is there is zero probability that someone like, like, like our treasury secretary would ever tell people they were buying anything until they were done buying. Ever. Because if there's one thing, you know, in the world of hedge funds, and I have a lot of experience here, is you don't talk about a trade until the trade is done. And I mean done. Now, am I saying he would lie by saying, well, we're not buying anything while they were buying? That could do, particularly if it was an offhand comment and you could take, and you can parse the words differently and who the we is, etcetera, you know, but, but the idea that they would actually admit that they were buying or going to buy is, Is just total fantasy on the basis of a bunch of crypto Twitter geeks who don't have a client clue how trading works. So I just want to be really clear.
- [18:55]
Tony
Absolutely agree with you. And just to confirm, Scott and Dave, you guys do believe a bear market's coming, right? It sounded like you guys are thinking this thing is.
- [19:02]
Scott
Yeah, I think bear markets come, but like presuming this is the top, and I mean the next bear market, this could be the bottom, the same price, right? I have no idea. So I'm not sure that they're trying to like time the market and buy the dip as much as they're just getting their ducks in order and not saying anything. But what do I know? I just have a 63 IQ.
- [19:26]
Dave
I'm happy to be provocative and disagree, but it's a much longer conversation and we can talk about it on Monday. Anyway, Andre, you, you had your hand up a long time ago. So you don't want to listen to me blither?
- [19:37]
Andre
No, no worries. Yeah, thank you. Dave. I actually agree with you with the CPI and the inflation numbers. I mean you had this outside positive surprise in the PPI number but as you said, I mean like 35 of the CPI numbers are imputed, right? It's like at an all time high the number of impute, the percentage imputed of imputed data. Right. So I wouldn't read too much into this. It's like they're actually throwing dots right at the wall and then they come up with any kind of number. But if you look at alternative data like truflation, I mean the true relation number is still below 2%, right? And if you look at data surprises in general, inflation surprises, they've been trending down since mid-2021 and since the Fed halted its rate cutting cycle in December, like these inflation data surprises actually have turned more negative, right? So I think the Fed generally remains behind the curve and if you look at labor markets prices combined with inflation data surprises, it's the same story. I, I think you just need some kind of renewed catalyst like a negative July print, revised July print, right. For these rate cut odds to move towards 50 basis points in September. And I mean if the Fed does cut or doesn't cut in September, it's not really important if, if the Fed cuts in September. What's more important is you'll have this kind of blurry of re of repricing of rate cut expectations, right. To the downside and it's re steepening of the yield curve which actually implies more money printing, right? An increase in money supply growth. I mean you've probably seen the latest Chinese numbers. I think Julian Bittle from gmi, he's just posted it, right. Credit impulse in China is already accelerating, right? So Chinese money supply growth is accelerating. We know global money supply is at all time highs right now. U.S. money supply growth starts to re. Accelerate. If you have pet rate cuts in September, even more so. Right. So I think the overall macro picture remains so bullish and at the same time, I mean talking about tactical price action, I mean we saw some signs of froth, right? I mean Scott, you've commented on, on my Google search tweet, right? Outpoint, Ethereum, we've probably all seen these Google search trend charts, right? So there were some signs of, of growth and even like crypto ETP flows, I mean they've been through the roof for, for Ethereum Right. Highest daily net inflows ever on Monday. Right. More than 1 billion into US Ethereum ETFs.
- [22:31]
Dave
Right.
- [22:31]
Andre
And over the past five weeks, it's been like Ethereum ETP flows haven't been three times bigger, close to US$3 billion than Bitcoin ETP flows. I've never seen such a huge.
- [22:45]
Scott
That's been crazy gap.
- [22:46]
Andre
Right. It's crazy.
- [22:48]
Dave
And how many of those people do you think, how many people buying Ethereum ETF or, you know, Ethereum ETPs have any clue that that the Ethereum use case they're being sold is impacted by the fact that Stripe and even Google are building their own layer once? Yes. Yeah.
- [23:09]
Andre
I think the fact that you've, you've seen the spike in Google search trends is consistent with these flaws because, I mean, we know ETFs. That's definitely, definitely increasing institutional adoption.
- [23:22]
Austin
Right.
- [23:22]
Andre
But like these flows are still dominated by retail investors.
- [23:27]
Dave
Right? Yeah.
- [23:29]
Andre
Extremely consistent in my view. Right, yeah. If you look at different kinds of pockets in the market, like the out season index or crypto dispersion, like how much alts are correlated amongst each other, there were definitely some pockets of throat. But that being said, I mean, you've now seen the opposite with the most recent correction with the spike in long liquidation. So futures long liquidations, Right. To the highest since February. So I, I don't think we'll see a lot of downside.
- [23:58]
Dave
Right.
- [23:58]
Andre
Famous last words.
- [23:59]
Scott
But Dave, interestingly, I mean, just to the point of the Ethereum inflows, Andre, that you just made, and looking at the charts right now, Bitcoin dominance is still dumping even as bitcoin has corrected down. I'm not saying bitcoin goes further, I have no idea. But I mean, bitcoin has retraced to the downside everything it gained yesterday. Ethereum Solana, I mean, almost backed to today's open. And Ethereum Bitcoin up still big. I mean, bitcoin dominance is just making low after low the last few days. You don't usually see bitcoin correct. Down with some sort of impulse and see all coins go up first.
- [24:37]
Dave
Bitcoin, I mean, yeah, it's fascinating really to look, you know, the. In the 20th, this is the first time I've ever seen this. If you look at coin glasses, liquidation, heat map, you know, so there were 750 million, you know, liquidated. Seeing the bigger box of liquidation on ETH at 318 million of it versus Bitcoin 217 million is fascinating. It's telling you all you need to know, given the relative size of the assets and relatively speaking, the symmetry of the fall between the two, that ether had 50% more liquidations than Bitcoin tells you. There's a lot more speculation going on in Ether than there is in Bitcoin and that tells you all you need to know. Unless you think that it's a one and done and it's over. And I don't. That backs up everything you just said.
- [25:29]
Andre
I mean, there was some sign of buyout extortion. Right. In terms of ETP flows because they've been so excessive. Right. But now you've seen quite the opposite. There are now more signs in the short term. Right. More signs of seller extortion. Right. With these long liquidations and so on.
- [25:49]
Dave
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting event. But you know, when you, you go back and you look, I mean, the last time, what was the last day that we had, it was July 31st where we had, was the last time we had a larger liquidation. Right. Is that right? July 31, yes.
- [26:06]
Andre
But these weren't high since February. Right. So it's.
- [26:11]
Dave
No, July 31st was 922 million in a 24 hour period. Okay.
- [26:16]
Andre
I'm looking at glass data.
- [26:18]
Dave
Yeah, whatever. Anyway, you know, we could quibble over who, which is, which. What's, what's interesting is if you look at the, the periodicity and you look at what's happened, you know, these things are like clearing. Like I was asked by a reporter to comment on, well, what happens if Bitcoin clears crashes or what happens if crypto crashes? And I basically said, listen, the biggest difference in crypto and the stock market is crypto has real time liquidation engines which, which clears the froth out periodically. It's sort of like the difference in a forest fire. You know, they always say clear out the brush and all the other stuff in crypto that, that tends to be the case in the stock market. That's not the case. If there was ever a major crash in the stock market, there's no limited loss in crypto derivatives. And we all take that for granted. We all kind of look at these numbers and like, ho hum, $750 million, who cares? But the truth is that this methodology that our industry uses has less systemic risk, which is probably a really good thing because it's a more volatile asset class in general. But it tells you a lot about the global economy. And if you think that rates are going to permanently go be high with that kind of a risk in the stock market. Because what would happen if the Mag 7s all had the same sort of revaluation down? You would be front page news. Everyone will be panicking. You know, it would be a much bigger deal. And, and don't underestimate the impact of that. That's the way I would look at it.
- [27:44]
Andre
Anyway, there's only one circuit breaker in crypto, which is when Coinbase is down.
- [27:51]
Dave
Yeah, well, that's a different story.
- [27:53]
Scott
But is that still a thing? It's still a thing, isn't it?
- [27:57]
Dave
Well, I mean, look, the problem. Look, I co founded a company that deals with all the market data in crypto and I can tell you that there is more than, it's two orders of magnitude more market data per instrument in crypto than in traditional finance. And for a lot of reasons. They're geeky reasons, but there's a lot more market data. What does that mean? That means that the volatility of bursts when markets move in crypto is dramatically higher. And so all systems are hard. It is very hard to manage an infrastructure where your peak could be a thousand times more than your average, whereas in traditional finance maybe your peak is 10 times more. And those numbers are not crazy. Those are actual real sets of numbers in terms of burstiness of market data. So yeah, you know, it's not just Coinbase, it's all crypto exchanges are vulnerable to peak load issues. And depending on how they handle it, it's more under the hood than you probably care about people. But you know, it, it is there. It's, it's not. People think it's intentional. There's only one time in the entire history of crypto that I think something was intentional. And that was during, on the night of the, that fateful Sunday night during the pandemic when bitcoin might have gone to zero on BitMEX.
- [29:17]
Scott
No, they had a, they had a very convenient service outage.
- [29:21]
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he. Someone kicked, someone kicked a plug out of the wall. I mean, come on.
- [29:27]
Scott
I mean, yeah, Big boy was at 3, 800 and there were precisely zero orders to $0 and they were liquidating 10 million. 10 million position clips. Crazy.
- [29:37]
Dave
Yeah, but, but outside of that, I don't think any of the outages have been intentional. And by the way, that was the smart move.
- [29:44]
Scott
Oh yeah, can't. Can't send it to zero. Hey, there's a story actually there. I want to ask you guys about this. This is really interesting. I didn't mean to pivot the conversation But I find this interesting. This was a, it was a tweet. This is how it's framed. Dragonfly investor OMAR said a 100 bips rate cut would slash circles annualized revenue by 618 million, roughly 23% gross profit by 303 million, 30% and margins by 3.3 points, raising its valuation from 42xEV annualized gross profit to 60.45% higher. We really talked about. It's one thing, I guess, to be a private company and you absorb it. It's another to be highly valued and publicly traded and if interest rates simply go down, your main source of revenue drops.
- [30:35]
Dave
Well that's true, 100%, but if you think that that's not a motivating cause for Circle management to build their own layer one to try to become the rails for all stable coins as opposed to just their own, then you're not paying attention because they're well aware of how interest rate sensitive they are. Austin? Austin, we can't hear you. I'm guessing you're talking. Your mic went away.
- [31:03]
Scott
I see him now and his picture is great.
- [31:05]
Dave
Yeah, I see you Austin, I see your hands raised. But we can you, are you there? Uh oh, we're in the glitch, Scott.
- [31:16]
Scott
We live in the glitch. That might be his glitch and not our glitch. I don't know. Yeah, he was talking, he was talking.
- [31:21]
Dave
Earlier, I don't know. Yeah, he dropped down so we'll get him back. Okay. Yeah, now you're here.
- [31:32]
Austin
So Guarav, you're not alone.
- [31:35]
Gaurav
Yeah, seems like X is, is trying to comprehend the, the crypto crash.
- [31:40]
Austin
Yeah, all of us. So I was gonna say people got very angry with me previously when I asked why is a bond trading with this price to earnings ratio. But what you guys have hit on is that Circle is essentially just a bond from an earnings perspective, right? Like it's got interest rate sensitivity, it's going to trade that way, and it is very, very sensitive to forward rates environments. I really think this is very poorly understood in their current profile, Dave. Like you said, they should be trying to do everything they can to get away from that, diversify, but the TBD out if they can.
- [32:12]
Dave
Yeah, obviously. I mean, look, and frankly I think it's a pretty strong story if you think about it from a crypto point point of view. I mean, you know, look, there's so much appetite for crypto. I mean, we haven't even talked about what arguably one of the most important stories of today is. You Know my friend Tom Farley and his company Bullish ipoing and soaring on its IPO as a crypto exchange that can offer services to U.S. investors. I thought was is a fascinating story.
- [32:43]
Scott
It performed as well as Circle. I did not expect that at all. I mean, I mean I think, I think they what they raised a 1.1 billion. That's ballpark of Circle. I think it was trading free IPO about 30 bucks which is right where Circle was, I think. And it went over a hundred bucks on the first day, which is just what Circle did. I think.
- [33:07]
Dave
Yeah. I mean it makes me think that. Well, I mean, you know, speaking as someone who owns it, I mean maybe Coin Routes should, should, you know, as a small company go public because the valuations would be, you know, we are now in the world where the public market valuations are well above the private market valuations and generally that doesn't last. But it's a very strong indicator of demand. And so people who think alt season is over and not seeing that ratio are not paying attention. I meant to lead with that earlier and somehow that diverted but you know, I'm curious, I mean Gaurav, I don't know if you're, if you're behind the mic now but I mean surely that, that has to be an indication that, that you guys look at. I mean it when public market equities that are related to crypto are, are the highest value and the valuations go higher than, than what, what VCs or PE people are valuing private companies at. Surely that's somewhat of a tell, right? Yep. Guess he's not there. It's one of the things you can never tell. Anyway, that's my thought for, for, for, you know, whatever it's worth.
- [34:17]
Andre
But do you think it's a sign of froth as well like cycle top indicator or something?
- [34:22]
Dave
I mean look, we are all scarred in the, in the world of crypto by four year cycles and, and whatever. I mean, you know, it's funny, I will be when people stop talking about and stop asking that question entre. That's when I'm going to turn bearish. I won't turn bearish until people stop asking that question. The S and P has been an unrelenting bull market more or less since 2009. You know, certainly, you know, measured by the way we measure crypto corrections, it's been, we're literally going on, on 16 years. I mean, yeah, there have been a couple of just borderline close to 20% dips that, that quickly Got back except.
- [34:59]
Andre
Covid, of course, with 38. Yeah, I think that's like a very brief tip. Yeah, I agree.
- [35:04]
Dave
Yeah, it's, you know, it's like if you, but if you look at the history, it's, it's nothing remotely like a four year cycle or anything like that. And, and why crypto needs to be in a four year cycle anymore as opposed to the way NASDAQ trades someone, someone who, who is either understands math far better than me or, or literally ignores math. Is the only way you can, you can justify that. So I, I, I don't know. But what I do know is that, that the, the stock market, you know, is potentially vulnerable and that it, and what my friend Mike McGlone always talks about, if the stock market does finally come down in a crash. Yeah. Okay. Then all bets are off. Do I expect that to happen? Not really. But could it happen? Of course. And so that's how I answer it. Would answer your question. Right.
- [35:57]
Scott
I haven't even looked at the stock market today. It's funny, I forget some days it even exists. What's the market doing after the ppi? I really didn't even take a look.
- [36:08]
Andre
Well, it's down as well.
- [36:10]
Dave
Yeah, I figured it's flat now.
- [36:12]
Scott
Yeah, it looks flat. I mean I happened to open on the Weekly and it looks like literally sitting at an all time high on the S and P. Retrace that move up. And bitcoin still right around 119. So there was something else going on with bitcoin, I think technically before the PPI print. Yeah.
- [36:29]
Dave
It was the bent thing that people started freaking out about. Oh my God, there's not going to be a bitcoin reserve immediately. It's like, okay, sure. And, and well, I don't, whatever it, you can say whatever you want to say about it. The only notable move that I'm looking at or that I see is the 10 year, you know, starting yield creeping up a bit, you know, but not huge. I mean, you know, what is it, you know, to 0.024 it's up to point, you know, 4.2, just under 4.27 instead of 4.25. So it's like, okay, you know, that's the biggest news.
- [37:06]
Scott
Yeah, I just think that it's very clear right now that crypto is kind of doing its own thing, you know, which I think is very, very, very good news here. I'll take that any day of the week. I'm trying to see any other big stories of the day. I know we have the guys from Aptos actually about to join. This is pretty crazy. Hyper liquid AUM reaches approximately 6.2 billion, surpassing 6 billion for the first time in history. Gaurav, this thing is wildly popular, man.
- [37:34]
Gaurav
Seriously man, like this, this came up in front of us and just took the world with a storm and it's just like not slowing down despite of a few crashes that we observed that was not a crash essentially like somebody exploited a structure and I think the likes of Google's and Facebook's are exploited and hacked 10 years after they've been a unicorn. So it's only natural progression of thing. And then these other competitors that have existed for three and four years came up with the logic of having built robust systems for the last five years and seems like the retail just doesn't care. Seems like even the institutions, because hyperliquid is known to have massive institutional volume and seems like nobody cares. They just love what hyperliquid is doing. And the ecosystem just keeps adding a few hundred thousand users per month. They have something that others don't. And you're looking at the likes exchanges that tried their retail play and then sort of rested back on their institutional game. But man, every time I look at Hyper Liquid I'm so surprised having said that to the audience of the Twitter space and something that Dave gives me a lot of credit for to add that value to the Twitter space. Don't over speculate on the Hyper Liquid token. Don't only take short term trade because one thing that people don't know about hyperliquid is, is that most of the supply, like most above 60% people also claim the rest of the 30, which makes a total of 90% of the supply is fully controlled. So like as incredible as the platform is, as brilliant the valuation is, just don't take long term trades on hyperliquid because there could be one other reason the supply would hit the market and, and you know what happens thereafter. So yeah, love Hyper Liquid for all the good reasons.
- [39:59]
Dave
Can I add something? A lot of the supply that's not quote controlled is held by market makers and platforms on Hyper Liquid in order to get partnership rewards. And so it's one of those things if the platform, you know, that is very, very stable as long as the platform's market share is doing really well, but it creates an accelerant that, that.
- [40:25]
Gaurav
Is the 10% supply, you know, you see as liquid.
- [40:29]
Dave
Yes. What I'm, what I'm trying, what I'm trying to say is it is, it's self referential good. As long as the platform does well. If, if they, if a new competitor. I mean because we've all seen this, right. It went from you know, dydx to vertex to hyper liquid. I think I missed one in the, the middle, you know, you know many.
- [40:48]
Gaurav
But it's okay. We're only jumping from 5 billion market caps to another.
- [40:52]
Dave
Yeah, but, but you know what I'm saying? I'm saying, you know what is the number one casino in the world today in crypto and it goes from one to the other. If hyper liquid starts to fade a little bit, its volatility of its token is going to be significant because people will say okay, I don't need to own it anymore. Now do I think that's going to happen? Actually know. But it doesn't matter. It's just your point about being careful and using it as a trade is extremely relevant and people should understand that. Yeah.
- [41:23]
Gaurav
Thank you. Another important part of that is and that I, I can, I mean we, all of us can appreciate hyper liquid for every other exchange or Dex has existed as a Dex most of the times like every single name you took. Hyperliquid however, I mean of course appreciate their intelligence. They've evolved as an ecosystem. There are hundreds of wallets that are routing their traffic and have built utilities on the hyperliquid chain. That is the sort of liquidity and trading chain empowering the hyperliquid platform and then hundreds and probably now reaching to thousands of dapps around that. Now think about it, all these apps and apps have their own ecosystem. To give you an idea, the number one exchange of India after of course WazirX hack COINDCX they make most of their revenue, current revenue from their hyper liquid, the wallet practo or something. I know practo is the medicine app, whatever. Now think about it like large ecosystems are being brought to hyperliquid. So the crash, I don't think it's going to be a crash overnight or even over less than a year to the next shiny object because they've sort of tried to cover this aspect of the business. Probably makes sense.
- [42:51]
Dave
Yeah. I mean without going into trading strategies because I was asked about this one, I was basically like the range between 50 was where the hype was. It got down by below 42 and found really strong support there. I mean it feels, it feels pretty solid in that range unless something major, major changes and it doesn't look like that. But anyway, I think we're running out.
- [43:12]
Scott
Of time so yeah, that's because I want to talk to the Aptos guys who just jumped up on stage. We've got Solomon and Ash. Guys I've talked to like Avery and Mo like a thousand times, but somehow have never you guys. In all these years of chatting and talking, I just changed the title above. So when we have a slow new news day, I just like to invite my friends to have a chat at the end of the show and thought this would be a perfect day to break down everything that you guys have going on with with Aptos. I've been working with you guys been like nine or ten months now since Singapore last year, which is really crazy. But clearly there's some new narratives I think forming. Let's just start maybe at the beginning because I don't think many people know about Aptos roots with Meta. So I don't know who more appropriate to ask each question and discuss, but you guys can just take the floor and, and kind of run with the history here.
- [44:08]
Solomon
Go for it, Solomon. Go for it. Tag team.
- [44:11]
Ash
Let's do it. Let's do it. First of all, thanks for having us. Solomon testified, Chief business officer here at Aptos. Just to answer your question, really, the underlying technology at Aptos was incubated within Meta, Meta's DM program. Our CEO and founder Avery was a the actual head of Blockchain and led the Blockchain initiative at. We knew he bas that we weren't able to actually.
- [44:46]
Dave
Cutting in and out.
- [44:47]
Scott
Do you guys. We're always glitching here, so I don't know.
- [44:51]
Solomon
Yeah, it's a little glitchy.
- [44:52]
Scott
Yeah, that space is. It could be his mic. Solomon, maybe jump down and we'll bring you back up. And Ash, you can kind of continue from there while we're getting his mic.
- [45:02]
Solomon
Yeah, let's run it. So yeah, to the question, I'm head of ecosystem at Aptos foundation, but to your question, Aptos was incubated at Meta as part of the Libra and DM project. And Avery, the CEO of Aptos Labs and the founding engineering team were all part of that project. And the idea around that was when, if most of you remember was how can Meta move value across this billion user app economy, WhatsApp to Instagram to Facebook. And so when you think about the necessary architecture and first principle thinking of what a blockchain needs to do to do that, there is a lot that goes into it. So the smart contract language and move was built uniquely at Meta to be able to move potentially trillions of dollars and trillions of transactions. Across different apps. And then the blockchain itself in terms of its speed, performance, reliability, There had to be no compromise in terms of how this worked. And, you know, Meta looked around the industry and said, hey, we obviously believe in this, although maybe a bit mistimed on their side, but we can't rely on any of this technology that's there, so we need to build it ourselves. So that's aptos origin. And the beauty of that is now it's an independent organization for the past three years. An independent open network for the past three years. Now everyone gets to benefit from it.
- [46:34]
Scott
Perfect. Evan, we're trying to. Solomon, if you can hear us, if you just drop out or come back in or. We sent you another invite, but we get these glitches. I've got you invited to speak, or you could try to request and we'll try to bring you back up, but yeah. Oh, there you are. Can you hear us?
- [46:54]
Ash
Yes, I can. On my side.
- [46:55]
Scott
All right, Perfect. Yeah, you were just. It was like you would say three words and then the next seven words would be cut out and then you'd say three words. So who knows? But round two. So obviously we landed where you are now. Aptos born of that DM project, which, you know, I Libra dm. I don't ever even know what to call it anymore. But, man, so far ahead of your time. There's. Because if that had happened now probably be a very different story. Right. It was just like such. Such headwinds when that was happening and try to get through. Congressman, those days, I don't even want to remember him, I think, at this point, but I'm sure you guys do. But we have sort of. Last I spoke to Avery, we were talking about aptos really emerging, I believe the term that he kept using and was the global trading engine that really you view the main purpose as fast, cheap, incredible utility for trading everything and all value into the future. I mean, can you kind of break that down and talk about that a bit more?
- [48:04]
Ash
Absolutely. So when we talk about the global trading engine, really thinking of three different pillars. One is trading, second one is really money movement, and the third one is data on chain, or you think of infrastructure. All three of them we view as very, very complementary to one another on the trading side, really, the movement of any asset, whether it be traditional assets, which we now call real world assets, or whether it be a blockchain native product. And then on the money movement side, at this point, we're moving 100 billion of stable coins on a monthly basis. So we are heavily focused on cross border transactions, remittance, micro financing. And then the last piece is data, whether it be putting disclosure on chain, intrinsic value on chain, like net asset value or actually providing what we have is basically called Shelby. Is that the AWS decentralized essentially where we're actually enabling basically a hot storage on chain.
- [49:03]
Solomon
So there's that.
- [49:03]
Ash
Those are the three areas of a focus really all complementary to financial services.
- [49:14]
Scott
Ash, do you have anything to add on that one?
- [49:17]
Solomon
Yeah, no, that, that's absolutely correct. I mean I think if we look at the multiple cycles, whereas crypto found product market fit and it's been through trading and I think it's gone through many flavors, right. Like I think you know, in 2017, the ICO phase, people were bullish on permissionless networks and product visions. And then you get into 2020 and people are financializing attention markets whether they be NFTs or meme coins. And I think now we're in the phase where the financial industry is really embracing, you know, embracing Web3 and embracing this industry. And so it's a, it's really about what's, what's kind of going to push everything forward. And I think obviously speculation is the core underlying feature of, of crypto. And I think that brings a really high value set of users into our space that doesn't exist in any other technical sector. They're high signal, they're motivated, they're almost like a board of directors influencing protocols, roadmaps. They have a loud voice. But we think that we need to expand that sphere. And so we think crypto gives better rails for money movements. But bringing assets that are highly liquid off chain on chain and adding a crypto for flavor that makes it more interesting is kind of where we're focused. And there's really two big opportunities here, right, for the industry and the world. One is emerging markets getting access to things like US capital markets instantaneous. If you go through a user flow of someone in Nigeria wanting to buy Tesla stock, you'll break your brain. It's completely burdensome and misses the point. And that's a multi trillion dollar opportunity, right? And that's something crypto solves. The second axis, I think is global retail markets getting earlier upside into technical innovation. I mean if you think about the IPO process right now, you know, companies are staying private longer and then when they ipo, I mean look at, look at Figma most recently, you know, a bunch of insiders get in and no one really kind of has, you know, think about if you're using Figma like five years ago, right? You're a power user, you get the idea, you have no upside, right? So I think these are two in tremendous opportunities. So I think a lot of people talk about trading and how it's a focus. I think we're uniquely positioned because of our blockchain and as I mentioned, the security architecture. But there's tons more room to grow and trillion dollar opportunities that I think aptos is positioned to do.
- [51:50]
Ash
And really on that last point, it really comes down to capital formation right now. You've seen a lot of focus of course, on just different token offerings. But Avery brings up, well, sorry, Ash brings up a great point that when it comes to actually just traditional equity offerings, you see what Kraken and Bakkt are doing with X stocks and providing synthetic exposure to public equity. But as more capital comes on chain, since we're supporting a significant amount of stablecoin volume on a monthly basis through trading and, and payments and whatnot, we of course it seems very intuitive that they're going to look for diversification on chain and look for yield on chain. And so what we're really trying to position basically any investor or any participant within the aptos ecosystem is where they don't need to move that capital off chain to get access to traditional assets or just a broader set of yield exposure. And so that's what we're heavily focused on.
- [52:45]
Scott
And I obviously the new sort of world of crypto now means you have to be attractive both to retail and to institutions. And clearly to become a global trading engine, you have to be very, very institutionally focused on that one side, you guys. I mean, obviously I follow very closely. Franklin Templeton BlackRock Brevin Howard ETF in review so I guess how do you kind of first service and focus on both sides of that market to make sure that you win? And then I guess more specifically, you know, what does it mean to have this level of institutional adoption? What are those partnerships or however you position them look like? What does that actually mean?
- [53:30]
Ash
So really at this point, different counterparties, especially on the institutional side, are being a lot more thoughtful around which blockchains they want to actually adopt. You could actually see in the market that some, some folks are getting a little bit fatigued in terms of integrating way too many blockchains at this point. And so to really strike that balance, we kind of look at one where is their demand at this point? Kind of going to my previous point around as capital formation comes on chain, mostly through trading and payments we mostly focus on yield and then providing exposure to already traditionally liquid products like public equity for example and then making, prioritizing those particular opportunities. With BlackRock, of course we have their money market fund, Biddle with Franklin Templeton, we have Benji, their 40 act money market fund with Black, with Apollo, we have their diversified private credit fund. So we have an example of a very liquid products on the money market side and then across the board yield oriented products. And then really private credit and money markets are really driving our RWA momentum right now. We're third when you look at RWA XYZ in terms of assets on chain. We have a little over 700 million of assets on chain at this point. But it's, it is basically striking that balance. And then on the private credit side specifically that's actually mostly driven by you know, private credit within like micro financing. So short term debt in emerging markets is actually driving that particular narrative within aptos. So that's important course more retail and SME focused.
- [55:06]
Scott
How do you frame sort of the institutional side and adoption here? It's this weird place for crypto now where like we're, you know, we were all a bunch of libertarians but we're, you know, we got to cheer BlackRock and the government and stuff. It's a good time.
- [55:20]
Solomon
Yeah, well, you know, my promise to Solomon is I'm always on the other side of the cypherpunk side. So you know, the way I kind of look at it is institutions are here, right? They believe in the technology. The technology is more than a philosophy now. But the next question is what happens? And that's really about utilization by retail. And so I believe that, you know, I believe that innovation in web3 from now until eternity is going to come from the people that are highly convicted in permissionless networks, open financial networks and have a strong opinion. And so I think that with institutions here it's validation and it's amazing and also it brings regulatory clarity which is great for users and founders and builders. But I think the thing that's going to drive the adoption and utilization by retail is going to come from startups and it's going to continue to do that. And so I think there's tremendous, tremendous money to be made and tremendous amount of money to raise to build transformative products from founders now more than ever.
- [56:29]
Scott
It's interesting. You talked about obviously decentralized and permissionless networks and for the first time right now, maybe not the first time, but I think we're seeing this bifurcation of approaches by institutions where A lot. I mean, Circle's announcement of their own layer one, two days ago, for example, it seemed like we're going to have those who adopt the blockchains that we have now, like Aptos, and those who are going to try to reinvent the wheel. How do you guys kind of frame all of that? Because it seems like some people are choosing to do it themselves, but others realize it's much easier to use what's built. I don't know if either of you are able to answer. Ash, Solomon, can you guys hear me?
- [57:16]
Solomon
I can hear you. I was, I was gonna let Solomon go in. Solomon, you there?
- [57:20]
Ash
I, I'm here now, but so I, I really view that as validation that essentially this, this technology is going to be adopted. A lot of those, those use cases are, are basically one track though. So at this point we don't view that as anything in terms of preventing our growth in any capacity. We view that as essentially a catalyst just for the just broader adoption within the particular space. But when we think of just the builders, which Ash is primarily focused on, oftentimes they're looking for multiple variables whenever they look to a particular chain to build on and they're looking more, not just, you know, in the case of, of stripe money movement, they're looking for, okay, do what's the exposure from a real world asset perspective, Am I able to build within that space? So if I'm moving money, I want to also be able to facilitate RWA basically for yield or we're looking for some kind of trading capability. So we believe that creating a broader ecosystem of complementary work streams actually is going to be more conducive for builders. But we are encouraged, if anything, when we see different institutions look to bring their own chains to the into play and also look for ways to still collaborate in some capacity in terms of interoperability and so forth.
- [58:40]
Solomon
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. I think it's extremely bullish. You know, I think about, I think about kind of the difference in terms of being a quote unquote open network versus more of a private network. And you know, these companies validate to me that this technology is extremely purposeful and it is ready to be introduced to billions of people. But they're going to be highly opinionated and they're going to have to, you know, that's going to be buttoned into their other technical stack and their business and corporate priorities. And by nature of that, you know, you have a big opportunity in the market today to work with stakeholders who need something different. As Salman mentioned. And so we're excited about the pie completely growing. But you know, my perspective is they're going to have to be highly opinionated and it's going to have, have to fit into a network stack on their side, which, which blockchains like us don't really, don't really have to focus on too much.
- [59:39]
Scott
Yeah. Listen, I know I've kept you guys longer than I was supposed to, but I do want to know, like, what are you guys most excited about in the, I guess immediate kind of short term by the end of 2025, anything you're hyper focused on, kind of to make sure that you get to that vision.
- [59:57]
Ash
Ash, you want to go first?
- [59:59]
Scott
Yeah.
- [60:00]
Solomon
So I'm super focused on these two things and as a head of ecosystem, my job is to find the beautiful harmony between investors, builders, the network and everything in between. But something that kind of sticks in my head is aptos is really forming in a way from an ecosystem perspective where we have a thriving defi, bottoms up ecosystem. We have products that need a high throughput blockchain like aptos to actually run their business. PACT protocol is a micro lending protocol that is driving a ton of RWA value on aptos. KGEN is the highest revenue generating non defi protocol on the Internet. And I'm very excited about onboarding what we call real world applications to aptos. Now it may look a little different, but it's something that we can uniquely serve. But other than that, when I think about like the boiling point of what we want to offer to both sides users as well as builders, you know, users, in order to scale, they need simplicity. Right. And, and so I'm very excited about products like Decibel, which is coming into the ecosystem where you can come in, you can be risk on and trade or you can earn yield and it's one venue that's clean. And if you talk to someone on the street of how to make money in crypto, they can look it up on their phone and get in there. And then on the other end, Salman mentioned Shelby, which really opens up value creation for crypto. And so I'm very excited for builders to kind of come in and say I have one API and dev platform to build any sort of DAP I want from a live streaming product to anything else. And so that's kind of what I'm very excited about 2025 setting up.
- [61:47]
Ash
And then I said excited about a number of different things. One within the three pillars that we focus on trading money, movement and, and really on chain data we have either builds, co builds, or we're incubating different builders on Ash's side that are really gaining tons of momentum within those particular verticals. And the unique thing about the Aptos ecosystem is, as Ash mentioned, real world applications. We actually have businesses that are actually, you know, profitable. You know, they're generating revenue and they're profitable. The financial profiles look very unique relative to other blockchain ecosystems, which is really solidifying the fact that they actually have product market fit, which is surprisingly unique within the Web3 space. And then also I'm very excited about a lot of the Aptos linked products that we'll be bringing to market. Of course, we're actively pursuing an Aptos ETF alongside of course, a bitwise, which is of course the issuer for that particular asset. We have a number of ETPs in Europe. We're actively pursuing CME futures and of course, you know, we any, any of these kind of, whether it be the digital asset reserves or any of these types of initiatives, of course we're actively exploring all these different types of products. So also providing indirect exposure to just the Aptos ecosystem to basically amplify what we have going on and the builders that are building within our space is just very exciting.
- [63:13]
Scott
From my perspective, man, everything all at once. It's crazy how fast everything is happening right now for you and for crypto in general, man, but it's really wild how much you guys are building and how fast you're doing it.
- [63:27]
Solomon
100%.
- [63:28]
Dave
Really appreciate it. Full speed.
- [63:29]
Solomon
Full speed. Always.
- [63:31]
Scott
Sorry, I know I invited you to 11:15. I'm sorry I kept your for like eight extra minutes, but I'm hard to stop once I get going. But solid Ash, it was a pleasure to finally get a chance to speak with the two of you and I hope that we will be able to do it again really, really soon.
- [63:47]
Ash
It's been a pleasure.
- [63:48]
Solomon
Thanks.
- [63:48]
Ash
Thanks for having us.
- [63:50]
Solomon
Bye bye.
- [63:50]
Scott
Awesome, man. And guys, as you know, thank you to the whole panel that was here before. Many of them have obviously stepped down while we were having the conversation. We always have the evolving panel. And we got one more thing before we go that was just sent to me, so here we go. Hey folks, a quick disclaimer. This last segment is brought to you by a partner of Crypto Town Hall. Imagine front running Wall street on the world's fourth largest crypto, a deflationary powerhouse that yields staking, rewards and fuels. One of the most active blockchains on the planet. BNB has outpaced Bitcoin with 25x returns over 5 years, yet it's been off limits to most US investors. Until now. Enter CEA Industries Ticker BNC on the Nasdaq, the first publicly traded company to adopt BNB as its core treasury asset, echoing MicroStrategy's Bitcoin playbook. Backed by institutions like 10X Capital and Yzi Labs, they've already deployed over $500 million, positioning for massive inflows from ETFs, exchanges and sovereign funds. Sophisticated investors. This is your backdoor to BNB exposure via a single ticker. Start your due diligence on Nasdaq BNC today before institutions flood in and the edge vanishes. We're going to have them on for the next week, week and a half. I'll be telling you more about CEA Industries, so check that out. Everybody else, we will be back tomorrow for yet another crypto town hall. Thank you everybody. See you then. By.