← The Wolf Of All Streets
The Wolf Of All Streets
Can Bitcoin Reach $1,000,000 In 2 Years? Gary Cardone Says Yes. Here’s Why.
00:48:25
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- [00:00]
Grant Cardone
Tampa. If you got a lot of money and you like to lose, contact me or Melker. We're going to put a game together.
- [00:05]
Scott Melker
You know, we all find creative ways to lose our bitcoin over time. Credit event, nukes, default on debt.
- [00:11]
Grant Cardone
I mean, this is an insane chart. My credibility is worth more than $30 million. Dude. That's significant, right?
- [00:19]
Scott Melker
You know, sealed trading or investing advice. Kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. After ranging above $100,000 for seemingly months, bitcoin finally made a new all time high on Thursday. Luckily, I was actually scheduled for a conversation with my good friend Gary Cardone, which we made live at the time because it was such an impactful moment. As bitcoin was breaking out, his conversation resonated with so many people that we decided to put it out as a podcast as well. We talked about everything from why price is going up, where it's likely to head. Spoiler. Gary thinks it could be a million dollars in two years. But also, this was just a frank conversation between two friends discussing the importance of bitcoin and how absolutely blown away by how easy it is to simply make money by buying and holding bitcoin. This is a conversation you do not Want to miss.
- [01:24]
Grant Cardone
Dope. 7th all time high in 2025 today for Bitcoin.
- [01:29]
Scott Melker
Crazy.
- [01:30]
Grant Cardone
Has that happened before in your priority?
- [01:33]
Scott Melker
It's kind of one of it depends, I think, on how you count them because there's definitely been periods where every day it makes a new all time high going parabolic up. So weekly, all time high, Daily all time high. I guess it just kind of depends on how you look at it. But we clearly were kind of stuck in this range, I think, since May 20th, 21st, something like that. So a month and a half kind of seeking this out and pretty clear evidence here that this thing's pumping.
- [02:01]
Grant Cardone
Do you think that people are surprised by these numbers right now?
- [02:04]
Scott Melker
I don't think so. I mean, I think there's a lot of people who expected to get a bigger retracement than just going under 100 for five minutes.
- [02:14]
Grant Cardone
Right.
- [02:15]
Scott Melker
But I think anybody who's paying attention has been chomping at the bit to buy as much as they can as fast as they can before it inevitably goes up. Right. So I think it just is a differentiation between your average person, maybe who has an opinion, and someone who's in the know and is looking at this knowing that it's a pressure keg that's been ready to explode.
- [02:33]
Grant Cardone
I was on a call earlier with some, shall we say, people have been around like 13 years, right? Long time. And they made the comment, they said, look, you know, somebody bought $10,000 worth of Bitcoin, they went all in and they held and, you know, they just don't see that happening again in this cycle. Basically, I was suggesting that over the next two to four years, we're going to see an exponential move from bitcoin. I think it's going to break all these models. And in this first four, in this first, in this fourth cycle, you get the biggest run. Which is against what everyone else is saying, right? Everyone's saying, hey, look, it's going to flatten out. We're going to lose the upside, the upside here because the volatility is tamped down. But my point is, hey, when you came in here 13 years ago at 10 grand, that isn't happening anymore. I mean, it is happening. But I see people coming in with $111 million for their first purchase. Okay, that has never happened before. Very different. Putting 10 grand. I don't think if you don't understand the difference between 100 million and 10 grand, because I would have never done this, you would never have had me in this space four years ago deploying 86% of all my warfare. No chance, man.
- [03:50]
Scott Melker
That's why a lot of people keep saying, Matt Hogan said it to me and he's continued to say it since, that this is the best risk adjusted time to buy bitcoin. Because at 100, maybe he was saying at 100. But at 100,000, with ETFs and legislation and regulation and a pro bitcoin president, what's your downside? Long term, right? But at 10,000, when it's a nascent asset and it's small and there's no institutional interest and you have the government fighting you, you got to think, hey, maybe this thing just goes down to 1,000 and stays there, right? So right now it's pretty programmed to continue up over a large enough time frame. I can't tell you what's going to happen tomorrow, today, whatever. But I think that, you know, there's so much money coming in and there's so much money still yet to come in that can't even get access to it. Vanguard never allowed it, doesn't even allow Bitcoin spot ETFs. It's crazy.
- [04:42]
Grant Cardone
Did you see the. Everything's making it easier. The reporting for crypto on taxes, you know, they're trying to remove all the complexity there that came out today. That's good news, man. People really stressed over the Audit ability of all this, all the crypto. You know, when your accounting team can't do it properly, it's going to make you rethink whether or not you really want to do the investment. So now everything's lining up for Joe Legacy to be able to do everything he's ever been able to do. And he has an instrument he can invest in that's four years long, which is a very different duration stack than any other asset you can acquire. Like most of these people, like Grant's in for 10 to 20 years, man on a real estate play. If you invest with Grant, you're going to sign a 10 year deployment and he has the right to extend for 10 years. Right. Private equity, the stuff I've always done in my building businesses takes you somewhere between six and 11 years building a company, six to 11 years. It, you know, owning a home. How long do you need to own the home? Probably the moment you bought it is probably, you know, start, start looking to sell it. This is a four year duration. That gives you a very limited downside with, I mean I could see this thing at 200 grand by the end of the year. Dude, with what the movement we're seeing right here, I could easily see that.
- [06:13]
Scott Melker
A 2x for Bitcoin is not really that unusual. Right. I mean of course now you're talking about 2 trillion market cap or you know, plus 2 trillion market cap to would be 4 and a half pushing 5 depending on.
- [06:27]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, but, but Nvidia is at 4 trillion today.
- [06:30]
Scott Melker
Oh, I'm not saying that it's crazy. I'm just saying it's harder. I think a 2x from 100 to 200 is harder than a 2x from 1 to 2. Right. Because it's just a different market. It's much larger and there's just, you know, it's harder to move price. But there's so much money pouring in. We were talking about this this morning. Should almost be surprised that it maintained under 112 or under 110 for so long considering all of the transparent demand that's coming in between Bitcoin Treasury Companies and MicroStrategy ETFs. 50 billion in net inflows now in a year and a half. I mean his numbers are insane.
- [07:06]
Grant Cardone
$76 trillion sitting in money market funds today. Yeah, 76 trillion, dude. Making what, what does the money market fund pay you today?
- [07:15]
Scott Melker
4 or 5%, 2%, 3%? I don't know. Yeah, nothing.
- [07:20]
Grant Cardone
I got a sister who's got two brothers deep into Bitcoin. She's got 300 in cash sitting on the sidelines just for an emergency. And it's like that is insanity, right? To have that much money sitting in cash doing nothing. It's not like she's, she's a vulture hunter waiting for a deal about on the street. Dude, I think we're so early here. I just don't, I think people are starting to freak out over these numbers. They're either. It's a little bit like the bitcoin community doesn't want us coming in here a little bit. I get that sense a little bit. Like you kind of want the number to go up but you really don't want us here. And this is the comment I made. I'm like, dude, the day bitcoin becomes easy for wealthy people to come in here, they don't have to read the white paper. 30 times is the day Bitcoin really does well, and you should this morning.
- [08:12]
Scott Melker
I said that to you this morning. Grant and his friends and the kind of guys who are just going to come in and plow 100 million into Bitcoin, right? I mean literally, transparently, I think, you know, like you said, you read the same articles as me, but a thousand bitcoin already. That's not based on reading the white paper and deeply believing that bitcoin is peer to peer cash that's going to replace the dollar. It's because people with that much money are looking for a place that they can plow money into safely and as you said, sleep well at night, right? You can now you can get the size easily without particularly budging the price. They're adding all of the sort of surrounding ancillary products that you would want around an asset that you own, like options and ETFs and all these things, which makes it that much more legitimate. And you know that there's no reason it's going to draw down massively right now. And honestly, even for a guy like your brother, he's got to be thinking about real estate and saying he's got a very favorable structure for the way that he does real estate. But like you said, someone who's just buying a house or buying something as an investment with. Wouldn't you rather buy bitcoin?
- [09:18]
Grant Cardone
Well, the house investment like, and I know you just bought one, so it's a little sensitive but, and you know this is true. I mean the house investment is the worst investment in the world. At least Grant's multi dwelling stuff, it generates fiat and that fiat's going to then buy Bitcoin, right? You know his allocation. This is the point I was trying to make to these guys in another room earlier. And it's the older. The older ones, I don't think they understand how money that was earned, like we earned it, is deployed. He did. I think he got 100 Bitcoin for something he did 10 years ago, five years ago. And I was like, you're not a bitcoiner, dude. Until you buy bitcoin. You gotta buy it, right? Like, then you start. Sure enough, he started buying it and I brought him to Saylor. You know, we talked about the whole strategy. And my pitch to him was, bro, the only way you're ever going to double go from 4,000 apartment doors to eight is to do something unique. And that got him. He's like, how? How do I grow? Because at this age, you start looking at it to your point, hey, how do you grow 10, 20, 30% when you have a big portfolio? He made the comment last night, and I think he's bought over a thousand bitcoin. I don't know. I'm pretty sure he's not lying. But today he's saying, I can see in front of 3,000 people, I can see where I could buy bitcoin, replace my real estate position and sleep it extremely well at night. Now, that's taken him less than two years, man. Okay, this is the point I'm trying to make. Putting $10,000 to work and turning it into 100 million. That's really cool. You won the lottery ticket. These people are like, how can I deploy 500 million? How can I deploy?
- [11:09]
Scott Melker
But they're also not buying it. To take 500 million to 5 billion, this isn't the same. Kind of like, oh, I need the 100x retail. I saw it on a billboard or on Twitter. And my caption, if you're plowing in 100 million, you're like, dude, I would be thrilled if this thing is 120 million, right? If you made 20% on an investment that was safe and liquid and easy. So it's not like people are coming in looking for upside altcoin games or to trade this degenerate gamestop meme. Guys, they're just looking to put their money somewhere safe that's going to outperform the benchmarks like yields and money market funds. As you said, the pitch to these guys, actually, I would say when I talk to financial advisors and such, they don't want to tell somebody, hey, put your money in crypto, it's going to go up 3x because that sounds like unicorn fairy dust. They want to, literally, they would rather, even if they believe that pitch the person say, you'll make 10% a year on this thing. Like it'll easily do 10% a year. Over time it's crushing your normal portfolio, which is doing six, right? And so like you sound like a lunatic when you actually throw out the big numbers that you'd almost rather pitch them on something lower. And in fact there's people I know who are trying to raise funds where basically they get all the upside and pitch this very low side, safe sort of guaranteed yield. Like you're, well, we'll cap your downside. So basically you can't go to zero or whatever. Your downside's cap to 10 or 20% and we pay you 10% on the upside each year, but we get the.
- [12:45]
Grant Cardone
Rest of the upside 13, 14, 15. If you did 15% a year for 15 years, you'd be tickled freaking pink, man. Man, and you'd be rich. Okay? This is like much less 23, double.
- [12:59]
Scott Melker
Your money every three and a half.
- [13:01]
Grant Cardone
Years at like 18, man. 18 is three years, okay? So you buy a hundred thousand dollar bitcoin, it goes to a million, it will go to a million, okay? And then you're going to get a 12, 15, 20% return every year. That is monster money. Like, I don't know why a 20 year old kid thinks he needs to chase XRP. I don't get it. Which then brings me to these bloody strategy companies I have found myself and I love having guys like you that have been around a long time in this space because I can call you up and go, hey man, BMNR just made 3,000%. It went from$2,250 to 120 in three days. I missed that move. Wow, that's a big move, man. Imagine smashing a million dollars into a trade like that and walking away with 100 in three days. Well, that shit's down 60% right now.
- [13:56]
Scott Melker
Okay, that's a hot potato, right? And I think that that's the future of these treasury companies.
- [14:02]
Grant Cardone
Well, that's where I'm trying to get to, Scott, is how many people are going to get their bags smashed chasing your shit, huh?
- [14:09]
Scott Melker
First of all, the people who invest in the treasury companies will make their money and exit, much like any early investment that you've seen before. It reminds me of, of ICOs from 2017. But the retail that buys the FOMO on the actual stock of those companies is inevitably going to get wrecked, even if simply the premium to NAV is arbed away. If you're trading at a 10x to the net asset value and you buy that stock, even if it goes down to 4 or 5x, you're destroyed. And it's still a good investment because it's trading at a higher nav than the underlying asset. I don't really. And then it's going to be a game of hot potato with people going between the treasury companies to find the next hottest one or the one that's most likely to move up to the highest premium. This is a game, I think, that we've seen before. But think about BMNR, which you just mentioned, went up 3,800%, basically, from what I looked in about five days. That was with Tom Lee going on TV saying Ethereum is the next Bitcoin or the new Bitcoin. I can't remember exactly what she said. And basically announcing that he was participating in this. Do you think that Ethereum ever goes up 3,800% ever?
- [15:22]
Grant Cardone
It's really hard to believe that that could happen.
- [15:24]
Scott Melker
I mean, you're talking massive, massive increase, right? So you're talking about Ethereum at like Bitcoin prices, right? So think about the fact that an announcement that a company is going to buy Etherium could pump it that massively when the underlying asset has been languishing. And people don't even want that. So that shows you that we're in some sort of weird FOMO disconnection where people are just trying to catch quick gains in these, just like they did in Altcoins or meme stocks in the past. But you have to understand that the insiders, their money is made before you're even trading this as retail. They send their Bitcoin in or their Ethereum into the treasury company that they've already had. They reverse merge into a public company because it's an existing public company, those shares are readily available for most people. There's not even a real vesting schedule. And because of the hype, you start trading at, you know, 8, 9, 10, even 3x to nav. You've 3x your Bitcoin or Ethereum stack overnight, your liquid to get out, get your coins back, maybe more coins or your coins back plus cash, plus riding the house's money. So these are engineered obviously, for the people creating them. I'm not even. I'm not making a value judgment on that. It's just a statement of how they operate. When you have wealthy people making money first, you just have Wall street all over again or ICOs all over again. And, you know, that's inevitably kind of what's probably going to. This will probably look like.
- [16:58]
Grant Cardone
I mean, this is an insane chart, like who's getting cut up here. Right.
- [17:04]
Scott Melker
Whoever bought that stock on the hype rally, can you say there's no rational reason for that to have done that?
- [17:09]
Grant Cardone
You're going to have a lot of people looking at this, trying to chase it. All they're going to see is the green. It's. It's going to be funny. You know, it does remind me who gets hurt by all these strategic reserves. Does the. I heard you talk about this the.
- [17:25]
Scott Melker
Other day is treasury companies themselves. Like, I mean, I think it's the retail. Who buys the stock. Right. So listen, when I. When I was first looking at these, which was before we were even in Vegas, right. I think we were talking about this on our flight to Vegas and I was kind of breaking down to you how I had reservations about the structure of these. Right. That was before we walked into Vegas and got pitched, like 40 of them. Yeah, Right. And so the reason I have reservations at first was because I thought it would be bad for the underlying asset. Like, this could be the next bitcoin bubble that wrecks bitcoin. And because my thinking there was, you've got these treasury companies now, there's a few of them. I think they're high quality, they'll do well. Those people have made their money, they're going to ride it. But when Bitcoin's at 150 or 170 and people see how much money these treasury companies have made, every hedge fund on the planet is going to try to start a bitcoin treasury company. They're going to buy what's inevitably the top on bitcoin, because that's when they're going to FOMO in. There's going to be really no way to raise the debt or the money to buy more bitcoin. And what they're going to end up doing is actually having to sell off all that bitcoin that was sent in, right, to cover. And so my thought was that wrecks bitcoin, right? And it wasn't that it causes an 85% drawdown or it's the next bear market. It's just that a like, 20% correction becomes a 40% correction, because at the 20% drop, so many people are so poorly positioned with these treasury companies and such that they're forced to liquidate their bitcoin. And it gives us sort of a cascade, right Maybe it bounces right back. I don't think it's doom or anything, but the more I think about it and talk to people, it's just more the people who buy the shares of the companies on the open market after they've pumped that are going to get destroyed. If you can't keep trading at 9x NAV or 5x NAV or 3x NAV, even MicroStrategy, what's it now, 1.7x NAV or something. Wouldn't you rather own MicroStrategy, which is trading like a bank stock, right. J.P. morgan, I don't know what it is now, but I'm going to guess JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs trade at 1 or 2x floating the value of their assets. Right. And so how do you even justify that with a bank? If you've got, you know, a certain amount of assets, why is your stock worth twice as much as your assets? Because of their banking services, the things they provide, the ancillary services, all of the structure that allows people to utilize services, make money, custody things, you run it. The full gamut of financial services. None of these treasury companies have that. A lot of them are promising it. If they had it, the premium to NAV could make sense. And I think everybody expects that's what MicroStrategy is going to become. Right? I mean, micro. Saylor is not hiding the fact that he intends to offer a full suite of financial services and effectively become a bitcoin bank. And that's why he needs to own so much and keep accumulating so much bitcoin. So I see that as totally justified that they're trading at that premium because you have this expectation and they're the first mover and they're the biggest. But like treasury company number 47, do they deserve to be more valuable than the bitcoin they hold? I don't know.
- [20:19]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, I don't get that.
- [20:20]
Scott Melker
I don't think so.
- [20:21]
Grant Cardone
Not out of the, not out of the. Just, just for an announcement, right? I mean, I like it. We're hitting 113 right now. I like it because it's chasing away the squirrely money. Bitcoin, if, if everybody was plowing into this, Bitcoin would be much more expensive. So I love this trickery. I'm just trying to keep my, my head on swivel and make sure that I, the swivel doesn't control me. I like observing the market, but I don't want to get fomoed into it. Right. This is why I'm wanting to have the conversation because I can look at the trade on BMNR and go, God damn, dude. I could have made a shitload of money just taking a small position. But then now I'm just chasing yield, I'm chasing profit, I'm chasing the Yank. I've literally changed my entire thesis of why I'm in bitcoin, which is, hey, this is money that does not require me to take massive amounts of effort and risk. Right. I don't have to keep moving and making activity. I need to be disciplined and keep adding.
- [21:24]
Scott Melker
If you're buying bitcoin for the right reason, you don't feel compelled to buy a Treasury company. Right. If you. And I'm not even saying this in a negative way, but if you're here to make a ton of money and you're speculating and you think that taking on a leveraged bitcoin position effectively because you believe it's going to go up, could be done through these treasury companies, I totally get buying these, but I just have to view these mentally as more of a trade than the investment. And the overwhelming theme of every conversation you and I have had in the past month, month and a half is, this is so easy. Why is this so easy? Can it be this easy? And it really is just that easy that you just take money and you buy bitcoin and you wait like it's.
- [22:08]
Grant Cardone
Going to be the joke of this.
- [22:09]
Scott Melker
Don't need to do this. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy these things. I'm not saying MicroStrategy is not amazing. I just told.
- [22:14]
Grant Cardone
Oh, Listen, I own MicroStrategy. To be clear, I own MSTR. Okay? But I own it 250. And I own some leaps of microstrategy. I own some miners. You talked about the people that are going to puke out. I'm not sure it's the strategy players. I think it's the miners. I think the miners are going to struggle, man.
- [22:36]
Scott Melker
Although this is good news for them, right? Because we've had historically high hash rates when bitcoin was kind of sideways, it was down in the 90s. So at least they're going to be profitable as bitcoin goes up. So they'll have less reason, I think, in the short term to sell. But there's always a reason for miners to sell if price languishes or drops. Like anyone who doesn't think price is going to drop again at some point. I don't know. 113,000, though. Not bad.
- [22:59]
Grant Cardone
What do you say to somebody that has no deployment into bitcoin at all and they're looking at $113,000 as all time high, how could you walk them through entering today versus waiting for a retracement?
- [23:15]
Scott Melker
No more dangerous notion with any asset that you believe in, but especially bitcoin, that I'm just going to wait to buy lower because inevitably you're the one who chases and buys the top. And that's just how markets work. That's how this works. I lost Gary there for a minute, but I can continue talking about it assuming he'll be back. I think that as I said, as a risk adjusted basis, this is the best price we've ever had for bitcoin. Or maybe in the 90s, hundreds, 88, whatever. But I would say, listen, just start dollar cost averaging. You don't need to think about the price except that this is something that you want to own, that you want to buy basically indefinitely, blindly and be price agnostic. There's no reason to think so hard about your entry point. Okay, you said you think it's going to a million. I think you got in a heated debate earlier today saying you think it could go to a million in two years. Right? Time frame aside, if you think it's going to a million, are you really like waiting to buy at 109 instead of 113? Right?
- [24:12]
Grant Cardone
That's right.
- [24:13]
Scott Melker
So to me it's just the case is, hey, do you want exposure to this thing that you believe is going to go up long term or do you want to take a major risk of missing the boat and then always questioning the entry point? So your entry point should just be all the time. Whatever your timeframe is, doesn't have to be all your money. But you know, even if you're buying small, just keep on buying.
- [24:34]
Grant Cardone
Scott, the biggest mistakes you've seen people make in this space, including yourself, what are the mistakes that people, they've been in here now three, four years or even eight. Where do you see the mind, the minds that people are just going to walk into repeat mistakes that have been made over and over? I see this poor kid that's in jail, bit boy or whatever. Every time I see his face, dude, I just want to. We're going to see a lot of the people that were here that could have made life changing money and they just blew it, man. They just blew it. They chased the dragon instead of like keeping their head down. What do you, what, what advice do you have to people?
- [25:17]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I would say that, you know, it's the old trading or investing advice. Kiss Keep it simple, stupid, right? I think we all try these complicated ways when we come in to beat Bitcoin. Flipping all coins, searching for the 100x gains, trying to do all these things. If we're talking about my own personal worst mistakes, I think it's very clear that being a voyager, you know, having the bulk of my huge percentage, I will say, of my bitcoin ethereum too, sitting on Voyager and losing that in one fell swoop, obviously, even though I believed in not, not your keys, not your coins, you know, I believe that I knew them and understood what they were doing. Clearly I didn't have all the information or I've gotten my money the hell out of there fast. But losing, you know, we all find creative ways to lose our bitcoin over time, right? Especially in the earlier days with kind of broken self custody or just more complicated ways. And so I think literally, and this is going to always get you and I in trouble because we say it, I'm not saying self custody is bad, I'm saying you have to deeply understand and believe in the asset and have very good technical knowledge to go down the path of self custody. And you better damn well have a good plan if you're going to do that. I believe that not your keys, not your coins generally was much more true in the earlier days. Now I think there are safe ways to do it on exchanges. I'm not saying that you should, but most people just need to get their basic exchange security in order at first and make sure that they don't fuck up, right? Like put a encrypted email account on your coinbase account, have a 2fa that's on a separate device for that. And for your Coinbase account, never have SMS because you're going to get scammed. How many emails and texts you get from fake Kraken, Gemini and Coinbase on a daily basis. I get them every single day. Your account's been compromised, whatever it is, and I think it's pretty straightforward. So just buy Bitcoin, make sure that you have it well secured and stop trying to beat it. Unless you're like a God tier trader.
- [27:21]
Grant Cardone
I mean, I think that there's, you know, I hear about all these people that have made all this money trading these altcoins and then flipping it into Bitcoin because their, their timing is brilliant. I've heard the whales do it and yet when I sit down and you know, I know enough people now to get a fairly decent read on what's going on? I, I can't meet three people worth $50 million that has done that. I, I don't. I have not had three people call me and go, hey man, I'm flying my jet through Tampa. Let me pick you and Scott up and let's go to Vegas. Hanging out for two days and I'm.
- [27:57]
Scott Melker
I love trading, I love trading, I love charts, I love all of it. But like I always kind of joke I'm like the wealthiest billionaires in the world didn't make it by deciding their entry on some nascent asset because of a line they drew in a chart. And I think lines on charts are great for trading. They're great risk management tools to be clear. But the real wealth is going to be paid by buying, holding and waiting this money. Unless you have some sort of inside information, which this money right here.
- [28:26]
Grant Cardone
Well, yeah, if you can go set one of those up, awesome. That's the place to be, right? Is at the 20 cent level. I get a phone call maybe once a month or more. Hey, do one of those. I'm like, yeah, I'm not interested, man. I just can't. My credibility is worth more than $30 million. This is exciting, man. I just think that people are, we are at a place where, I mean, in all honesty, this is going to look like $10,000 in two years.
- [28:56]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I agree.
- [28:57]
Grant Cardone
This is now really rolling all through mainstream Wall Street. Mainstream everything global. Right. Like it is like mercury just seeking into everything. I mean it's pushing through 113, no problem at all. I don't think we're going to have 4 million coins lost in the next eight cycles because people are self custody and they're gonna. I actually think the self custody is probably the biggest loser in the Wall street revolution. And not to diminish its value.
- [29:30]
Scott Melker
No, but it's for retail. Like no institution is buying bitcoin and putting it in multi best multi sick in the world. They're gonna have to trust BNY Mellon or State street or Coinbase or some huge registered custodian because they'll have coverage for insurance and all the obvious things.
- [29:47]
Grant Cardone
Which makes it safer for us than it was prior because you had none of that support in the earlier days. Like I've never had any American bank steal money from me. Never. That's just my reality. Y' all can say that it has happened before. It has never happened to me. I've had them try to feed me to death, but that's up to me to call them and go, hey, you can't charge me that fee. I'm not paying it. This is an additive for me. I'm actually seeing my bank, who's a mid tier bank, not a, not a super name. They've seen my wallets and they're like, bro, they're treating me better. And I have none of my bitcoin sitting with them. They are treating me with great respect. Now that's a big deal. When my bitcoin isn't even sitting in their ecosphere. They know that I have a bunch of other investments in crypto sitting on their balance sheet or in an investment portfolio. Two years ago they would have been a little bit more demanding of me. Now they're like, hey, what can we do for you? It's really fascinating. And they literally don't even touch the bitcoin. They know it's there. That's a big change, dude. When people start giving you more credibility for that, you're holding bitcoin.
- [31:02]
Scott Melker
Yeah. I mean, and how about Pulte saying that, you know, bitcoin and crypto on a United States registered exchange will count towards your net worth for a mortgage? I mean, these are the kind of things that maybe in and of themselves don't move the market market, but they're the kind of signals that show you that this is a legitimate asset class. And when combined with all the other signals that make it a legitimate asset class, sky's the limit. I mean, if you can all of a sudden use your Bitcoin right next to your Tesla stock or Your Q. Q. Q. Or spy, whatever, your mutual funds and such, to take a loan against your entire securities portfolio, and that's just a part of it. Incredible, right? If you can now say, hey, look, I can afford my mortgage and 12 months of reserves here to make my payments because I'm holding Bitcoin on Coinbase, which is the case right now. Right? That's what they're saying. Not in self custody. That's what would count. Not saying it's right or wrong. How huge is that? Right. Imagine having 90% of your net worth in bitcoin and them telling you you can't afford your mortgage. You're like a billionaire. That happens, right? It's crazy.
- [32:07]
Grant Cardone
Where do you see this thing going over the next six months? End of year, where are we up?
- [32:14]
Scott Melker
I don't know. 130s, 150s could be much higher if things stars align. I think you always have to just temper expectations because you never know when the next black swan or whatever will come. But I will say that every black swan we've seen for markets has just sent markets down for a day and then higher. So we've had multiple wars, right? That hasn't.
- [32:37]
Grant Cardone
What black swan could hit us that would hurt? Bitcoin credit.
- [32:41]
Scott Melker
Some sort of credit event.
- [32:43]
Grant Cardone
Nukes.
- [32:44]
Scott Melker
A credit event. Nukes. Default on debt. I don't know. I'm not saying those things will happen, but there's a lot of. Listen, it's certainly not anything geopolitical because we've seen what people would have expected to be bad geopolitically and markets have just continued up. We're just, you know, I guess, you know, a world war, if that actually happened, if we're not being hyperbolic, a world war could send it down. But to be honest, world war might be the thing that sends bitcoin way up while other things go down. So I can't even say that that sends bitcoin down.
- [33:16]
Grant Cardone
Cyber attack, Full on global cyber attacks. The only thing worries me. Or nuclear war. I've never had an investment thesis that I could do this in where I'm like, wow, I don't care what they do. I don't care what they do. They can't pull the rug now. They could have done that at 40. They could have done it four or five, eight years ago. Not, maybe, not easily. Well, they did do it four years ago.
- [33:42]
Scott Melker
Yeah.
- [33:44]
Grant Cardone
The whole Sam Bankman fried deal was to crush it, which I actually think we're going to be happy with. In retrospect.
- [33:50]
Scott Melker
We're going to be happy that Sam gave you lower prices and a temporary respite. But he certainly didn't change the overall trajectory.
- [33:58]
Grant Cardone
No, not at all.
- [34:01]
Scott Melker
I think all that that happened helped expose some of this gratuitous, like froth. And so we understand what might be more of a scam and what might be more legitimate. I think that all those things that happened have taken some shine off a lot of the altcoins people would have maybe been plowing their money into that don't have utility or value. I'm not saying all of them, I'm saying some of them that they might have put their money into. If you want to give a real silver lining to all the attacks by Gary Gensler, all of the attacks by the government, the insanity we saw as a response to SBF and those other things is one of the biggest reasons Trump was elected and that we now have a pro crypto government. Because at the beginning, listen, I do believe Trump and his family, like deeply believe, like at this point, I think.
- [34:43]
Grant Cardone
They've been orange and they hate the banks, dude.
- [34:45]
Scott Melker
Well, listen, at the beginning he like, at the beginning he was launching NFTs and he was like, hey, my NFT. This guy made a comment right, about an NFT or something and he was like, wow, these guys really like when I talk about crypto. And then he saw the money coming in and then he said, fire Gary Gensler. And then the technologists and the entrepreneurs and the billionaires and the crypto people started donating massively and it helped turn the election. I'm not saying he wouldn't have won otherwise, I have no idea. And then that led to follow through by the administration to continue to keep that money going and to buy this asset and to support this asset. I don't think that happens. All of that without the massive negative that threw the pendulum fully in the other direction. Because the anti crypto army, the Elizabeth Warren, Gary Gensler, Joe Biden bullshit against our industry pissed so many people off that non political people became massively political and swung an election.
- [35:38]
Grant Cardone
Amazing.
- [35:39]
Scott Melker
That's what I think.
- [35:40]
Grant Cardone
You know, you bring up Trump, I have become pretty convinced that of all the sectors who supported him, the people that will be most happy with his follow through will be the bitcoiners. How ironic, how ironic is that, man, huh?
- [36:01]
Scott Melker
Because all the other things gets down into the deep long standing political pitfalls that have existed forever. You start talking about the big political issues that have existed forever. Wars, right? I mean the military industrial complex, all these things like, listen, you can think what you want about it, but we started this administration with doge and cutting and we ended with the big, and we're now with the big beautiful bill and grow our way out of it, right? Once again not making a judgment whether which one is correct or not. But we all know that every path leads to money printing because this is the United States government and money printing has no party, right? And so if you believe that crypto will continue to be popular as long as we don't it up ourselves in some way with another SBF for a while. But you know, it's going to be an issue that they can use to raise money and will be politically popular. And it's just, it's a no brainer, it's a no brainer for them. So I, I really think we all agree the government's going to do what it's going to do and bitcoin is a good solution to that. And now the government agrees with that.
- [37:06]
Grant Cardone
Hey, you brought up pal. There's a lot of news right now. A lot of rumor coming out saying Powell is going to resign. Do you think that's really in the offing or are we just. It's just rumor and gossip.
- [37:19]
Scott Melker
I think they're just bullying him, having a good time, trying to force his hand. But I think like, there's no reason for him to resign unless he's just sick of getting bullied or, you know, sick of being made fun of or sick of being criticized. Where's this year? At some point in Trump's term, his, you know, his term, Powell goes out at the end of his own term and we get a more favorable Fed chair. I have mixed feelings on Powell. I think they obviously blew it. The Fed is always behind, always blows. It overshoots in both directions. Transitory inflation, all of the insanity that we saw before. But at this moment, I can't really criticize him for not cutting rates at this exact moment. They cut rates before, right? And hey, listen, interest rates went up. So if the idea was to get interest rates come down and they went up when they cut, you have to be cautious.
- [38:19]
Grant Cardone
The only reason you cut rates is because there was so much money deployed in 20 and 21 and it's under fucking water, okay? All the commercial, a quarter of the multi dwelling real estate guarantee, a quarter of it, okay? Anything that was bought in 2021 did so without a fixed rate because the banks were looking at me going, bro, we will never, never, never not give you money. I mean forever. They were like, interest rates are not going up. They gave me 120% loan to value on this house, dude. And when I, when I, I'm signing the document, 120%, $11 million on an 8.6 million dollar house. Do whatever you want with the rest of it, right? I'm sitting at a signing table for lunch in Clearwater. There's five bankers there, three of them are salivating, man, they cannot wait to sign this thing. Because I'm like, I'm looking at him going, wow, you guys are going to make ten grand on this trade, right? Or whatever. You could see they're making bonuses. I signed the deal because I thought they were going to pull it out from under me. I looked, I looked at all of them. I said, have you guys run out of really, really rich people? And two of them went, yes. And that was my thesis, that the super, super wealthy people, they already have everything they need. Literally. They are maxed out on consumption and they're full in every fucking bucket of investment thesis or anything they could buy. They have so many Rolexes and there's one thing they don't have, man, it's got a finite supply. 3,500 billionaires or worth 5.4 billion each. And I think there's 30 or 40 billionaires seriously playing in bitcoin today.
- [40:06]
Scott Melker
Oh, I agree with that.
- [40:09]
Grant Cardone
Dude. That's significant, right?
- [40:10]
Scott Melker
I would actually flip that. I would say that there's hundreds of billionaires you've never heard of who got there because of bitcoin and are anonymously wealthy. Yeah, I know a few people that are not on any Forbes list who nobody's ever asked and they've never told, but I know they own and that's.
- [40:33]
Grant Cardone
How they got there.
- [40:34]
Scott Melker
5, 10, 20,000 bitcoin. And nobody knows they're quote unquote billionaires because apparently bitcoin doesn't count and nobody tells someone and they have 10,000 bitcoin if that's their entire net worth. So it's a lot more billionaires than 3,500. We've probably got a thousand of them ourselves that nobody knows about.
- [40:52]
Grant Cardone
You think so, huh? I'm not sure.
- [40:54]
Scott Melker
That few hundred. Certainly a few hundred.
- [40:56]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But nonetheless, man, okay, when we start thinking about, wow, you got less than. I mean if you had 300 now putting new money and they're all worth five and a half billion each. 300, that's 10% of the pool of billionaires. That's before we get to the millionaires and the ultra high work people. So I just, I go back to your comment about, you know, risk reward, risk adjusted entry point. This is cheaper than 10 grand for sure. Cheaper than 10 grand. 10 grand was a lottery ticket. But the lottery tickets aren't making investments here. This is real money.
- [41:36]
Scott Melker
Where 113,400.
- [41:39]
Grant Cardone
Yep. And it looks like. What do you, what do you think? We're going to push this thing this weekend, buddy. We're going to push into 15, 16, try to find a top and then come back down.
- [41:49]
Scott Melker
It's hard to know, man. You know there's a blue sky breakout if it closes up above here.
- [41:53]
Grant Cardone
We never been here before, dude.
- [41:55]
Scott Melker
I think it's like 120.
- [41:56]
Grant Cardone
You know, I really now, now when you, when you look at those numbers, are you looking at any particular. What are you looking at to come up with a 120? That should just.
- [42:07]
Scott Melker
It's only like a 10%, not even a 10% move. That's just a little, nice little bitcoin move to like get you a solid floor above the previous high.
- [42:15]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, it's up 6%. Yeah. That's probably 118, 117, nothing.
- [42:22]
Scott Melker
That's.
- [42:23]
Grant Cardone
That's a day that's around a lot of people, buddy. These kind of numbers will shake up a lot of people, I think. I don't know if it makes him rush in. I suspect it does, actually.
- [42:35]
Scott Melker
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Grant Cardone
I don't think my brother's fully deployed. I think the more you do this, the more you're like, hey, shit, I should have done more.
- [42:42]
Scott Melker
Listen, at 120, everyone's going to be like, I could have bought this shit at 100 a couple weeks ago. What am I doing? I missed 20%. And then we'll correct to 100 so they can feel really terrible. And then I'll go back up because they won't buy 100, because now that's back at 100. It's going to 80. Just buy it. Stop thinking about it.
- [43:00]
Grant Cardone
Where do you see our low this year? Do you see? If we retrace, where would you think it would not retrace? Below.
- [43:07]
Scott Melker
Oh, you mean a low, like from here on out?
- [43:09]
Grant Cardone
Yes, sir.
- [43:10]
Scott Melker
Because I think 74 was the low, right, For. For this year. That was in April. Listen, if it. If things got really messy and the whales wanted to really mess with people, Maybe the high 80s, low 90s, 88 would scare a lot of people if it broke. Beautiful.
- [43:28]
Grant Cardone
Dude, I've been waiting.
- [43:29]
Scott Melker
You and I, you said this to me on the plan when we were flying out to Vegas. And I remember we were talking, we were at like 100, and I was like, 88. I was like, I like 88. You were like, oh, I'm buying Bitcoin in 88. I don't know if it's this year or next year, in two years. But, yeah, I don't know if that's changed. But, you know, we were both kind of had that tagged.
- [43:44]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, no, I think I'll see an 88 again. But we need to see big numbers, you know, we need to see the. That's why I think you need to see the two hundreds. And then you'll have a big old retracement or 250 or 300. I mean, this thing can most certainly retrace again, 70, 80% relative to where it goes. If it goes up, if it goes to a million, it will retrace a monster.
- [44:06]
Scott Melker
We're going to get. We're going to get 40, 50% drops probably still. We've had. We just had like a 35, 38. Whatever. I mean, what do we go? We went from 109 to 74. Like did people not remember that was this year. It's not like these things. We're not immune to this stuff just because we're making a new all time high right now. So 120 to 88. Great. Nice gift. Normal bull market retrace. Grab it. Great. Smash it.
- [44:33]
Grant Cardone
Do you wake up grateful every day that you ended up in this industry? Dude, how lucky are you?
- [44:39]
Scott Melker
There's a part of me that does. But there's a part of me that would have been more grateful if I was one of those quiet billionaires and didn't have to deal with the. That comes with being in this industry.
- [44:50]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, but that's not who you are. You are who you are. So I'm, I'm grateful. Dude, I gotta tell you, I could have done.
- [44:58]
Scott Melker
I'm very grateful. But yes, some days it pushes my buttons.
- [45:01]
Grant Cardone
Yeah, yeah, listen, every job has, has its right. It's. I don't want to do this recording but. Or whatever the deal is. We're gonna hit 114 here. Watch this situation. If we talk long enough, we'll smash.
- [45:15]
Scott Melker
We'll be at 115 if we keep talking.
- [45:17]
Grant Cardone
I think we're good for the market, Scott. I think that's what we should become. The ambassadors. The bitcoin ambassadors. We'll have the board elect us next year for 10 year.
- [45:24]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I mean if these guys talk, price goes up. No, not financial advice. Please contact your financial advisor. Past results are not indicative of future. Yeah, past performance is not indicative of future results. How many emails have I gotten with that before in the bottom.
- [45:40]
Grant Cardone
Well, listen, I want to say that I think the industry is grateful and it's better that you're in the space than you're not.
- [45:46]
Scott Melker
You too, man. Thank you, I appreciate that.
- [45:48]
Grant Cardone
Well, I love being here. It's an awesome space, man. I keep saying there's going to be a million people employed in the bitcoin industry. This is an industry. We're seeing young men get $200,000 a year jobs being bitcoin strategy managers, strategic advisors to public companies. That is fascinating to me. It's so awesome that people are going to have really great careers out of this. It's not just about buying bitcoin. You are employed in the bitcoin industry, not just about your bitcoin holdings. That's a big deal, man. When it becomes an industry size like you have real jobs like the guys at Bidwise. I mean, dude, these guys, they could be Working at Goldman right now, bored to fucking death. And they have become prominent players on Wall street, man. Prominent players on Wall street because of their focus. They're in the right space. And that's 99% of the problem finding the right table to play at.
- [46:56]
Scott Melker
I think we found the right table, that's for sure.
- [46:57]
Grant Cardone
Speaking of tables, are you playing Sunday night with me?
- [47:00]
Scott Melker
I'm not going to be here. I didn't know the date, but I'll do well. We're going to start every two weeks.
- [47:06]
Grant Cardone
Let's get a game going to every two or three weeks in Tampa. If you got a lot of money and you like to lose, contact me or Melker, we're going to put a game together. We love people that don't know how to play high stakes poker.
- [47:17]
Scott Melker
So come on, fish. I haven't played in a long time, but I used to be very good. It's been a while. I'm gonna have to, like, you know, update myself on the new theories and strategies. But, yeah, just call when I donkey and take that. My strategy was always find the donkey and wait for them to give you their money. So, yeah, not so different than trading.
- [47:37]
Grant Cardone
Not so different. At least you know who the players are at the table, though. Listen, with me, all you do, there's one thing with me, when I raise you, just say, I call. I raise you call. And we're going to have an awesome.
- [47:50]
Scott Melker
Guy over the top.
- [47:53]
Grant Cardone
All right, buddy. Hey, listen, I could sit here and talk to you for a long time, but we'll be a lot richer than we are. So I think we ought to let everybody go. Have a good Thursday afternoon. Thank you for everything you do, man. Tell your wife hello for me. And you guys have a great holiday.
- [48:06]
Scott Melker
All right, guys. Thank you, everyone. Bye, Gary. Thanks, man.
- [48:10]
Grant Cardone
Let's do.