David Sacks To Hold Crypto Conference Today! | Crypto Town Hall

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Wolf Of All Streets Episode: David Sacks To Hold Crypto Conference Today! | Crypto Town Hall
Release Date: February 4, 2025
Host: Scott Melker

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Introduction

In this episode of The Wolf Of All Streets, host Scott Melker delves into the tumultuous events in the cryptocurrency market, significant government interventions, and upcoming legislative developments. The discussion centers around a massive liquidation event in crypto, the implications of a new U.S. sovereign wealth fund's foray into digital assets, and the anticipated press conference by crypto czar David Sacks.

Market Overview

The episode opens with Scott addressing the recent volatility in the crypto market, highlighting the largest liquidation event in crypto history.

Scott [00:00]: "We had the largest liquidation event in crypto history... looking like about $8 billion liquidated by degenerates using leverage in the crypto market in a matter of hours right before bitcoin bounced back to as high as $102,000..."

Key Points:

• Liquidation Event: Initially reported at $2.2 billion, Ben from BYBIT suggests the true figure was closer to $8 billion due to API reporting discrepancies.
• Bitcoin's Resilience: Despite the significant liquidations and tariff news affecting the market, Bitcoin demonstrated strong resilience, rebounding to $102,000 before settling around $98,909.
• Altcoin Vulnerability: Unlike Bitcoin, altcoins suffered disproportionately during this volatile period.

Government Intervention and Sovereign Wealth Fund

The conversation shifts to the U.S. government's unexpected move to establish a sovereign wealth fund focused on cryptocurrency.

David [01:31]: "The US government is now running a hedge fund with the executive order... we're basically, you know, going to be creating a very large leverage bet. We'd like to see it come into crypto."

Key Points:

• Executive Order: Signed by Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, signaling the government's strategic interest in crypto.
• Funding Concerns: Unlike typical sovereign wealth funds funded by natural resources, the U.S. does not have a surplus, raising questions about the fund's sustainability.
• Bitcoin's Position: David remains optimistic about Bitcoin's long-term trend, suggesting it remains a strong investment despite potential technical challenges faced by Ethereum.

Press Conference by David Sacks

Gareth, another panelist, brings attention to David Sacks' upcoming press conference, which is expected to provide clarity on digital assets and the new sovereign wealth fund.

Gareth [03:37]: "...the White House crypto czar, David Sacks, will be hosting a press conference later today... expected to talk a lot more about this new sovereign wealth fund..."

Key Points:

• Press Conference Focus: Anticipated discussions on Bitcoin timelines, the sovereign wealth fund's legislation, and the Bitcoin strategic reserve.
• Community Speculation: The announcement has sparked various theories, including potential equity stakes in companies like TikTok.

Legislative Developments (Genius Act)

Scott introduces the Genius Act, a new stablecoin legislation proposed in the Senate, aiming to establish clear regulations for U.S. stablecoins.

Scott [21:38]: "Here's the quick highlights from Eleanor Terrett. Genius act provides clear regulations for US stablecoins... establishes licensing and reserve requirements for issuers."

Key Points:

• Stablecoin Definition: Digital assets pegged to the USD, excluding algorithmic stablecoins like Luna.
• Regulatory Framework: Licensing and reserve requirements based on issuer size, with Fed rules for those over $10 billion and state rules for smaller issuers.
• Legislative Priority: The bill is expected to move swiftly through committees and be a focal point in today's press conference.

Stablecoin Regulation

Discussion intensifies around the regulation of stablecoins and their supervision under various governmental bodies.

Simon [37:17]: "If they go for travel rule... it would give such a competitive advantage to stablecoins over banks. It would almost be like a security token."

Key Points:

• Regulatory Bodies: Likely oversight by prudential regulators like the Federal Reserve rather than investor protection bodies like the SEC or CFTC.
• Global Implications: Comparison with Europe's MICA regulations, which could redefine stablecoins and impact their functionality in DeFi.
• Market Impact: Effective regulations could cement the U.S. dollar's supremacy, while stringent rules might stifle innovation by transforming stablecoins into mere digital bank deposits.

Collaborations Between Executive and Legislative Branches

Bill, a lawyer on the panel, provides insights into the collaborative dynamics between the White House and Congress concerning crypto legislation.

Bill [32:27]: "But I think if we got market structure and stablecoin done, I think that's a big success and we can start to fill in the gaps."

Key Points:

• Legislative Packages: Congress aims to advance market structure and stablecoin legislation, viewing them as foundational for a robust U.S. crypto industry.
• Filibuster Concerns: Achieving the necessary 60 votes in the Senate remains a hurdle, with potential filibusters by key figures like Elizabeth Warren posing challenges.
• Bipartisan Efforts: There's a noted shift among Democrats towards a pro-crypto stance, fostering broader support for comprehensive crypto policies.

Outlook and Future Projections

The panelists express cautious optimism about the future of crypto regulation and market stability.

Simon [25:47]: "It's time. It's actually a good corollary to that is exactly what we were talking about is when one party is completely in control..."

Key Points:

• Short Time Frame: With midterm elections approaching, there's urgency in passing meaningful crypto legislation within the next year.
• Building Coalitions: Emphasis on creating bipartisan support to ensure the longevity and effectiveness of crypto policies.
• Innovation vs. Regulation: Balancing rapid technological advancements with thoughtful regulatory frameworks to sustain innovation while ensuring market integrity.

Conclusions

Scott Melker wraps up the discussion by highlighting the critical junctures the crypto industry faces, emphasizing the importance of effective legislation and strategic government involvement. The episode underscores the unprecedented nature of the current developments and the collective effort required from both the industry and policymakers to navigate the evolving landscape.

Scott [27:25]: "That's the way the industry in D.C. is very much focused. Let's get the big things right and let's worry about the noise later."

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Notable Quotes:

• David Sacks on Volatility:

  "[01:31] 'The US government is now running a hedge fund... creating a very large leverage bet.'”

• Scott on Bitcoin Resilience:

  "[00:00] 'Bitcoin just absorbs it and goes right back up.'"

• Bill on Legislative Collaboration:

  "[32:27] 'If we got market structure and stablecoin done, I think that's a big success.'"

• Simon on Stablecoin Regulation Impact:

  "[37:17] 'If they go for travel rule... it would give such a competitive advantage to stablecoins over banks.'"

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This episode provides a comprehensive look into the intersection of government policy and the cryptocurrency market, highlighting the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. Listeners gain valuable insights into the strategic moves by the U.S. government, the legislative push for stablecoin regulation, and the broader implications for the crypto ecosystem.

Transcript

[Scott]

Crypto town hall. Welcome everybody. We do the show obviously, 10:15am Eastern Standard Time every single weekday and wow, what a few days it's been. Obviously we had the largest liquidation event in crypto history effectively this weekend. While it was reported at $2.2 billion in liquidations, Ben from BYBIT saying it was more like 8 to 10 because the ways that the APIs report to Coin Glass. So looking like about $8 billion liquidated by degenerates using leverage in the crypto market in a matter of hours right before bitcoin bounced back to as high as $102,000 after, as we predicted, the tariffs were canceled. Then we got some China tariff news and bitcoin dropped a bit, now trading around $98,909. To me, this is all just complet. We're trying to get more panelists up here, but we get these quick moves and we all look to fundamental events for why it happened, but usually bitcoin just absorbs it and goes right back up. Can't say the same for the altcoin market, which has suffered obviously disproportionately in this sort of bitcoin focused cycle. I mean, David, how do you frame all this up and down and tariff news and trying to assign narratives?

[David]

Hey, I would say that, yes, we know that this is going to be a volatile environment. We kind of had a sense of that, just given what we saw in the first Trump administration. You know, the guy likes to drop bombs out of nowhere. So, you know, just buckle up and get ready for it. I think the most interesting thing we've seen is that, you know, the US Government is now running a hedge fund with the, with the executive order that was signed yesterday with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen and Kirk Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Obviously they're all saying that this is going to get, take time to implement. But you know, as was pointed out by other people, generally you have countries that are running surpluses who will start a sovereign wealth fund, and usually it's funded by natural resources, oil sales, etc. But as we know, the US government does not have a surplus. So we're basically, you know, going to be creating a very large leverage bet. We'd like to see it come into crypto. And I know that relative to crypto, obviously we've seen Trump and his wife take money off the table through the issuance of their own meme coins. But hey, you know, grifters are going to grift, so what can we say? So I would say simply I think it's still up and to the right as far as the trend is concerned for Bitcoin. You know, Ethereum may actually face some technical issues in terms of challengers coming up, but, you know, for the time being, hey, it's there. So, you know, buy that one too.

[Scott]

Guys, I'm in a horrible glitch. I can barely hear what any of you are saying. Gareth, you are a expert at this job. I'm gonna sign out and sign back in. It'll take me about one or two minutes. But, Gareth, I'm have you continue the conversation and then, you know, if for some reason it goes dark, please, just, you know, keep it running until I get back. Right. I'm now the.

[Gareth]

The honorary host of Crypto.

[Scott]

Whatever, man. I know you. I do this job and put you on the spot, but, yeah, that's all good before. I'll be right back.

[Gareth]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we. We can continue the conversation from there, maybe. Simon and David, you guys want to weigh in on this? There's a big announcement happening later today, obviously, in reaction to the, to the, the news and the executive order that came out yesterday. But the White House crypto czar, David Sacks, will be hosting a press conference later today. It's expected to be on digital assets. They're probably going to talk a lot more about this new sovereign wealth fund that they've set up. Do you guys have any idea what to expect from that? And can we expect some clarity on perhaps the bitcoin bull and when that's actually going to come to fruition?

[Simon]

Okay, yeah, I'll have a go. As I said, the devil's kind of in the detail. Maybe these are combined, maybe these are independent. It would make sense that the strategic stockpile is the transfer of the crypto assets that the Department of Justice has seized. And if there was a congressional approval for a bitcoin strategic reserve, then the sovereign wealth fund might be a nice dollar cost averaging way of doing it. But the real question is, how is it funded and where does it come from? I'm not sure if we're going to get those types of announcements. I think this might be focused on the digital asset strategy, maybe like a roadmap for America, the different types of regulations that they would like to focus on, the vision of the strategic stockpile, whether there is going to be a made in America type of crypto policy, maybe these types of things. I think maybe just clarity around, you know, America is open for business, and these are the things that are important to us. And These are our strategic goals. I'd expect something like that. I don't think they're going to actually maybe I don't think it's a panel for announcing anything because everything from here really is okay now. This has to be done. And I think there's congressional processes that need to continue and regulatory processes, but, you know, I guess it's a. We want to get this off the ground. We want to tell our voters that we are serious and we're seeing everything as time sensitive, time urgent, and everything is moving at a very, very fast pace.

[Scott]

I'm back and I can hear you guys. Great. Gareth, you're hired. Did an amazing job.

[David]

Yeah, I'm assuming I would just add to Simon's comment that we should just be wary that understand that everything that comes out of the Trump administration can most readily be just pulled right back within a fairly short period of time. So, you know, whatever David Sacks has to say is all well and good this afternoon. And yes, we're all focused with our eyes on the prize of the long term potential. But just given back what we were talking about, volatility earlier. Yeah. What can be said one day can easily be taken away the next.

[Scott]

Absolutely. I'm hoping you guys can hear me. Fine. I can hear all of you, which is great. We have some notes from my friend Andrew, who always kind of gets the inside scoop. Update some notes. It's tagged right above in the nest. This tweet. Some notes about David Tax. And today's press conference will be heavy on Bitcoin and timelines. Discussion of sovereign wealth fund timelines laid out as to proposed legislation and Bitcoin strategic reserve. Yes. I expect there to be America first rhetoric with SWF and crypto reiterating. No xrp. Interesting. So we have the announcement of the sovereign wealth fund yesterday. I think conspiracy theory, throwing out my tinfoil hat, that seems to be about TikTok to a large degree, beyond the fact that I think they want a sovereign wealth fund. But if the United States is going to be forcing a sale at a tremendous discount of TikTok to an American company or entrepreneur, it does seem like time that when America puts money into things or subsidizes things, that they actually get equity back for it, which is kind of the idea behind a sovereign wealth fund. So the United States could become a de facto owner of TikTok. But think about all the companies that basically the United States has found ways to subsidize or industries they've helped. Imagine if the United States was an equity holder in all those companies. And that's kind of what a sovereign wealth fund could potentially allow. I also think that this sovereign wealth fund could be sort of a backdoor way to start putting bitcoin not on the balance sheet, but having the United States invested in bitcoin and other crypto assets. I mean, we have the sovereign wealth fund announcement, we have Eric Trump tweeting that it's a good time to buy eth in his opinion and then kind of hints that something's coming, then edits away the part. He basically tipped his hat so that there's going to be announcements. So I mean, could this be, you know, could this be instead of a strategic digital asset reserve, that these assets go into the sovereign wealth fund? I mean, Gareth, what do you think?

[Gareth]

I don't know. I mean, I commented on Andrew's post that's been pinned at the top of the space, I think it was earlier today and like the points that he raised, you know, like heavy discussion on bitcoin, you know, this, America first and the strategic wealth fund. Reiterating. No, xrp. I mean like this sounds super, super like bitcoin maxi, you know, like I'm not sure if any of that would, would be right. I mean like one can only.

[Scott]

I don't expect it to be bitcoin maxi. No, no, Trump hasn't said the word bitcoin. He has.

[Gareth]

Precisely. Precisely. I mean, the question is, is, you know, David Sachs just going to take an all crypto approach? I mean, honestly, from the outside looking in and from all the reporting that we've done, it seems increasingly likely that there is going to be some sort of a crypto reserve and it will have a basket of assets. I think it'd probably be heavily bitcoin. That's just my 2 cents worth. But honestly, I don't have any inside knowledge here. I know as much as everyone else that's been speculating from a new sense. But in terms of the sovereign wealth fund, I would find it actually quite surprising if they announced that a bitcoin acquisition is going to be part of that. But I'm also not an expert on, on sovereign wealth funds or anything like that.

[Scott]

So I'm addicted.

[Gareth]

Yeah, I couldn't even speak, you know, repeatedly on, on what would make up a proper sovereign wealth fund. I mean, what sort of assets do sovereign wealth funds typically invest in? You know, is it even assets, you know, or businesses?

[Simon]

Yeah, anything strategic to the country.

[Scott]

Yeah, literally anything. So that this is kind of like when people talk about, you know, what you can Put in a reserve, obviously focused on, you know, gold or oil or things that are strategic to the United States. When you talk about a sovereign wealth fund, I mean, they could flip Trump and Melania if they want to.

[Gareth]

Go ahead.

[Bill]

What I did.

[Matthew]

What?

[Gareth]

Yeah, sorry, David, just before you jump in, what I found interesting was, you know, Senator Lamas herself had kind of put out a few, you know, retweets yesterday, sort of saying that it would be good news and kind of intimating that it might be good for bitcoin. But, you know, maybe she's just trying to hype that up and continue getting some good support for what she's trying to do with the Bitcoin Act. So, I mean, that's, that's my general feeling. And I don't think that they're going to come out with a very clear sort of statement on what crypto they'll be investing in and if it's going to be part of the sovereign wealth fund. I just don't think that they're going to give that kind of clarity this early after signing the executive order yesterday.

[Scott]

Yeah, David, I'm going to go to you in one second, but just I did pin that above for anyone who wants to see it. This is a big deal with the bitcoin B again. Now, listen, we had our biggest faces ever when we got fooled by her bitcoin B big deal last time that we were about to get a strategic reserve for being totally transparent. But thank you all for joining me that day. Yeah. Which was her getting a job. But in this case, she's referring to the sovereign wealth fund, specifically with a bitcoin B, like they're going to put bitcoin in the sovereign wealth fund. That's what that says, whether it's going to happen or not. That's what she's saying. Go ahead, David.

[David]

Yeah, I was simply going to say in terms of the funding of the sovereign wealth fund, I'm speculating here, but given the issues around the Social Security Trust and the demographic profile in the U.S. obviously, you need to raise the rates of return on the Social Security Trust fund to fund benefits going forward. And I wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me to see if the current administration says maybe what we see in terms of the sovereign wealth fund just to get the ball rolling, is to have a portion of the funds that are in the Social Security trust fund rolled into the sovereign wealth fund.

[Scott]

I wonder what the laws are on insider trading with a sovereign wealth fund. Anybody know? Bill, you're a lawyer.

[Gareth]

I Was going to say we've got Bill. Yeah, we should ask Bill.

[Eric]

Just have Nancy Pelosi run it.

[David]

You need.

[Bill]

Yeah, with, Well, I, I don't know what the, I don't know what they are. I, I do think that.

[Simon]

I think, Justin.

[Bill]

Yeah. If the, if the question is, is insider trading allowed, you can just assume.

[Scott]

No, I just wonder what the definition of insider trading is with a sovereign wealth fund. You know, like if the United States.

[Bill]

Yeah, well there's insider trading is a general category and basically if you're taking proprietary information, using that for personal gain, it could be violating a number of different rules or laws or standards.

[Scott]

So can do you know, if, if it's possible. So we've obviously talked about the mechanics of moving assets that are already seized by DOJ and, and the Marshalls into a quote unquote strategic reserve or a digital asset stockpile. Right. So basically they can take everything that they've seized past that becomes the de facto strategic reserve. Does anybody have any idea what the mechanics would be of moving those assets into the sovereign wealth fund meter? Just for the record? So I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, Matthew, you were.

[Bill]

No, I, I, I, I expect that it's not lawful to do that and they would need an act of Congress.

[Scott]

Yeah, that's, that's my assumption.

[Bill]

But I don't, but I don't know, I don't know necessarily what the rules are without that. Because we don't have a sovereign wealth fund.

[Eric]

No, but we have 11 states. We have 11 states that have sovereign wealth funds.

[Bill]

Well, that's fine, but system, sure, but.

[Eric]

In all of those states they have commodities, which I think is really interesting. It's either petroleum or public land or fossil fuels, some assets and things like that. There's nothing in there like stocks. And maybe there's a difference between how we are starting to differentiate these assets between each other. Maybe some are commodities and not necessarily securities and that's where you're going to be able to make that justification. So I would venture a point here to say that like the justification or the classification of cryptocurrencies in a particular way might allow them the ability to put them into a sovereign wealth fund.

[David]

Yeah. I would add to that point about states with sovereign wealth funds. I would also go through and look about state run pension funds, whether you look at CalPERS, CalSTRS, New York State Common Fund, the Texas funds, even Ohio. But one thing I would just observe about the current administration is that they don't seem to be bothered by the niceties of laws. They would rather just rule by executive order and let any challenge be taken up in the courts and we.

[Bill]

That's patently absurd. Hey, that's patently absurd.

[David]

Look, crazier has come out of this guy's mouth. We'll see what happens.

[Bill]

Well, I not nothing that crazy to.

[David]

Be what you've got Elon Musk going in and willy nilly just shutting down parts of the US government. No one's doing really anything about it. This is the wild west, my friend. Well, get ready.

[Bill]

No, it's not. No, it's not. I, I understand there's, there's sort of a lots of catastrophism. I think the catastrophism is more organized and coherent. This.

[Scott]

Lost Bill, did you guys.

[Bill]

This transition has been laser focused on getting what can be done in the executive branch done. And their lawyers are very.

[Scott]

Bill, you have a terrible connection and you keep cutting out. Buddy, I'm going to bring you down and bring you back up if we can reinvite him. So yeah, David, I kind of kind of lost what was happening there that in that argument. I did just try to look up the mechanics and it does seem like we would need a new legal framework to move assets, but it's very vague. Go ahead, David. Sir?

[David]

No, I'm good. Simon.

[Simon]

You know, I was just gonna say, look, the reason it's all crickets and speculation is because everything's unprecedented. The impression I get here is that the largest economy in the world is kind of doing what Google does where they're creating all these little departments that are operating like startups. And this is unprecedented. Name a country in the world that has a sovereign wealth fund that's not backed by some kind of, you know, surplus cash flow and has transferred over Department of Justice seized crypto assets, not ETFs, and is trying to classify what these different types of commodity straight digital assets are at the same time as coming up with a bunch of new regulations where the president of the country has conflicts of interest. Below NFT collection, a launch of a stablecoin, a DeFi platform, a governance token, a meme coin for himself and his wife, and a brand new crypto saw. No one's going to have the answers to this stuff. We're just enjoying the journey of a startup division within the largest economy in the world. It's completely unprecedented. And then you have the whole bitcoin conversation. That one's complicated enough. Adds the shitcoin casino to the mix and no one's going to have the Answers, it's never been done. You won't find a case.

[Scott]

So we're making it up as we go.

[Gareth]

Unfortunately, that's true. I mean, like, even if you, if you look at this, you know, announcement that's supposed to take place later today, I suspect it'll be very similar to, you know, Trump's executive order for the, the, you know, the digital, the, the cryptocurrency working group, right. Like they want to develop a strategic reserve xyz, but they have to, you know, cross their T's and dot the I's before they even start thinking about doing any, any of these things. And I guess that's the nature of crypto Twitter is we all want things to happen super quickly, but it's just not going to be like that. And you kind of need, need to let all of these processes take place before we get anywhere near that.

[Bill]

Could I just address the issue of the conference later, press conference later today? I heard a couple thoughts on it. And from everything we in D.C. can tell, it's Congress, especially those leading the efforts in the House were particularly annoyed with the executive order setting out 180 day research and writing period for the administration to figure out what it wants to do. Congress wants to move on legislative packages, many of which are largely built and ready to go. They just need to be repackaged and then, you know, the legislative process needs to begin again and with a new Congress. And so this is a, I think most accurately seen as collaborative hand extended from the White House to Capitol Hill and is, you know, and frankly, in, in that regard, I think a very positive sign that the White House wants to work so closely with Capitol Hill on lots of stuff. So the, the first priority for Capitol Hill is a market structure bill. That matters very much to French Hill, that matters very much to Cynthia Lummis, although her, she has sort of competing legislation from what passed in the House last time and then secondarily is stablecoin legislation. And so they want to proceed with it and they don't want to be sitting around on their hands waiting for the White House to do whatever it wants to do. I think today is the first indication that the White House is on board with that and that they want to work hand in hand with Congress. So I, you know, I'm sure they're going to talk about all the things that have been mentioned on this, but I think that this is more good internal politics between the executive and the legislative to let folks in Congress know that the White House isn't trying to Take this over and run in its own direction and disregard what, what the folks in Congress want to.

[Scott]

Yeah. To your point. Sorry, sorry to interrupt. Hagerty proposed a new stablecoin bill today in the Senate. Right. I pinned it above called Genius. Genius. And here's the quick highlights from Eleanor Terrett. Genius act provides clear regulations for US stablecoins. Defines stablecoins as digital assets pegged to the USD. Establishes that obviously by the way means like no Luna type algorithmic stablecoins. Establishes licensing and reserve requirements for issuers. Applies Fed rules for issuers over 10 billion, state rules under 10 billion. Supports financial inclusion, efficient transactions and dollar supremacy pegged to the USD. They and Senate staffers tell me they expect the bill to move quickly through committees in Congress will be discussed in today's press conference with David Sachs. So sounds bill like you're right there that they're going to make it clear that this is a legislative priority to start to push. I mean we've had, you know, Lummis Gillibrand sitting for years. We've had market structure and stablecoin bills in the House, you know, led by McHenry et al, for years. It's time. Yeah.

[Bill]

And what the blockchain industry has really never had are the chairs of the relevant committees on Capitol Hill, both in the House and in the Senate, working collaboratively with the White House on actually realizing some of these policy goals of ours. I think today at a minimum you're going to see there's going to be some sort of parallel congressional working group on crypto policy, probably bringing both House and Senate together to pave the road on some of these policy disagreements. But I think it's look, I mean think we're in a brave new world and it's very exciting and I think we have a great 12 month opportunity to get a lot of policy boxes checked, which will only lead to bigger, tougher questions in the future. But we're starting to set a table now for a really robust industry in the United States.

[Scott]

David?

[David]

Yeah, I was just going to say no, it's all very, very positive news. It's nice to see the confluence of Congress and the executive potentially collaborating. But I would say that looking at the executives priorities alone and thinking about the time frame within which they have to enact that it all has to be done before the midterms. I would argue, and I would just say one thing is that given what we're saying about all this innovation taking place, it's very much a part of the idea. Elon Musk or others of just moving fast and breaking things. So, you know, I think on the outside, we have to bet that there are going to be things that are unexpected that are more likely to happen than to look at sort of standard operating procedure being what's going to happen if in the event the Congress pushes back against the executive. I clearly would expect Trump just to come down really hard on Congress because he does not wish to be reined in. There is, you know, limited appeal for him, I think, of checks and balances, and we'll see how it plays out.

[Scott]

Yeah. Quick, quickly. I just want to say, actually, who was jumping in? Go ahead, because I can move on to the next point. Somebody was jumping in. Is that you, Bill? All right, sorry. Yeah. I think that the point about midterms is really important. And Bill, I'm assuming that's why you kind of said they have a year. Right. And not two years, because in a year after that, they're going to be fundraising and worrying about elections. And I think it's important to note in a conversation I had with John Deaton the other day, he pointed out that if the Senate flips Democrat and usually you do not see party remain in power in both houses and the executive, you know, throughout, usually there's pushback and one of them flips. Elizabeth Warren would be the chair of the Senate Finance Committee again in two years. So it is a pretty limited time frame here.

[Bill]

Yeah, I'm not as worried about the Senate as I would be about the House. The House was supposed to flip. The House was supposed to flip Deb this time, and, and the fumble was so bad that it stayed Republican. But no, you're right. In an election year, it's hard to get anything done. I'm not normally all like rainbows and unicorns, but I do see a remarkable shift in the landscape among Democrats on Capitol Hill on this issue. I think the work that Fair Shake and, and other organizations have done to really educate and cultivate a growing bench of Dem candidates and Dem representatives who aren't, at the very least, aren't crypto, like antagonistic and go all the way to, you know, Richie Torres, Pro crypto. Let's embrace innovation style, folks, like the, like a throwback to the 90s Democrats who were Clintonian and their view on innovation, I think we're seeing that trend. And so I think this year we're going to be kicking ourselves if we don't get the big pieces done. And that's the way the industry in D.C. is very much focused. Let's get the big things right and let's worry about the noise later. And then let's continue to build broader coalitions in both parties who get crypto and want to give us the opportunity to prove the merits of the tech we're building.

[Scott]

That last point was the one that I've been stressing repeatedly, and it's kind of my biggest fear is that we finally have this all systems go moment, and now the industry has to actually prove its worth, right? Well, I see people sort of making the laughing faces, but it's true. It's actually a good corollary to that is exactly what we were talking about is when one party is completely in control, you find that it's very hard to govern and very easy to scream from the sidelines about all the things that are wrong. Well, now we have been screaming from the sidelines about all the things that are wrong with crypto policy. And now we have the chance to basically do anything we want. And it's a very brief chance. Go ahead, Matthew.

[Eric]

Just a quick analogy here from a policy standpoint that when Amazon was, you know, after the 2001 sort of Internet bubble burst and Amazon was coming back into the foray of things and there was a huge problem in policy about how to deal with taxes because people couldn't figure out if I was buying from a warehouse or I was buying from Amazon or if I was buying from somebody directly, how do we tax and earn and figure out where the revenue goes for all this? And it took Congress in the United States 14 years to ultimately figure out how Amazon could tax its goods. So I just, you know, to your point there, you know, Scott, there's just this stuff takes a lot of time for policy to suss itself out. And we're at the very beginning stages of this. And so it's really critical that we continue pushing the ball forward. But it's also just important for people to have the set of expectations that this stuff doesn't happen overnight. So when you hear that they're going to come out and have this grandiose, you know, meeting today and on the steps of Congress or wherever they're going to do it, I just think it's going to be kind of a nothing burger and kind of, you know, we should temper our expectations about what they can do and what they will say they're going to try to do.

[Scott]

And I think that that's the point everyone's making. It's going to be more of a reaction reiteration that this is a priority just to make sure that the industry is happy and nobody forgets that they're working on this. But like nobody's expecting, I guess, a huge announcement, very specific, that could be like a market catalyst. Is that kind of what you're saying?

[Eric]

Yeah, and I think we should just hope, you know, that the market itself is understanding that too, and not trying to price things in which it doesn't really feel like it is, but it is just something to keep in mind that when we hear, you know, now it's becoming a much larger game of, of announcements, of announcements.

[Simon]

Right.

[Eric]

Like we do this with founders in the space or you know, some tokens and projects and things where we're hoping something comes and there's a lot of hype around it. But this is now becoming on a much more national and world, global stage. So the, the announcements of these things or the, the speculation is just going to be a much, much broader sort of, you know, system here, I think.

[Scott]

Yeah. Bill, you're obviously in dc. How would you handicap the odds of getting some meaningful crypto legislation in the coming, you know, months or in this first year? I mean, we talked about what needs to get done. I mean, do you think that we see something substantial? I cannot be able to hear Bill if he's speaking. Anyone? I can't hear. Okay.

[Gastón]

Also can't hear him. Scott.

[Scott]

Okay.

[David]

Crickets.

[Scott]

Yeah, we like to, we like X. I feel like they're trolling us. You know, I know that there's glitches in the software, but they want to make us look stupid at the most inopportune times. I feel like there's like, like one of his. You know, everybody is very upset about elon having like 23 year old devs running Doge and cutting departments. I feel like those guys are also listening to our spaces and just with me. But hey, that's just me. Go ahead. David. David, you had your hand up.

[David]

Sorry about that.

[Scott]

Now you're doing it. You're one of the devs. I see what you did there and it's. And honestly, man, that was perfect comedic timing. Well done.

[David]

Sorry.

[Scott]

Oh, you can speak now.

[David]

Oh, sorry. No, there was a good point that was made in the conversation, not ours, earlier today that what's going on right now is somewhat reminiscent of what happened in Iraq when the Coalition for National. You know, after Bush invaded, you know, the people who were put in to run things knew absolutely nothing about what they were doing. And it just took a lot faster to ruin a country than to actually build it up. And we'll Just have to see what happens. Hopefully in the meanwhile, X continues to work for us. Thanks.

[Scott]

Hey, man, it might have been you, but I blame X. So you're good.

[Bill]

Yeah, well, so I think, I think it's high that we're going to get something done legislatively. I think the hurdle is getting to 60 votes in the Senate. The, the worry is if you don't get to 60 votes, somebody's gonna filibuster whatever's put forward. You know, Warren could, you know, lay down in the aisle and say, you don't have 60 votes to get past my filibuster. So I'm gonna hold my bre. Thing goes away.

[Scott]

Oh, my God. Well, maybe she'll hold it forever. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Bill]

Yeah, right. But I look, I think they're, you're. They're going to get to a package which is, which is palatable enough even for sort of the crypto skeptics, and you're going to get to. And, and the, the antagonists are not going to lay down on the tracks for it. How much you get done, I think is the issue. Hopefully if we got market structure and stablecoin done, I think that's a big success and we can start to fill in the gaps. Obviously, the devil's in the details as to what they say, but I think we need big table setting items done. And it looks like, at least initially, Congress and the White House are going to try to work together to make that done.

[Scott]

Stablecoin has to be the lowest hanging fruit. Right? I mean, that just seems easy relative to everything else.

[Bill]

Yes and no. There are a couple sticky issues in there, but you'd think it would be easier to get to yes or sort of sufficient consensus than market structure. But it's not going to be prioritized ahead of market structure. It doesn't look like. And then there's going to be a lot of horse trading because there's lots of different ways to go at stablecoin. No one knows what Hagerty's bill, the perfectly named genius act, what precisely it says, but they're going to have to reconcile the differences among these various bills and then get past the question of how these stablecoin issuers are going to be supervised and who can be a stablecoin issuer if they get past those hurdles. Yeah, I would think it would follow on shortly after market structure.

[Simon]

Do you think that would be OCC or sec? What's your take?

[Bill]

Stablecoins?

[Simon]

Yeah.

[Bill]

No, I would think that they would be regulated by a prudential Regulator for.

[Scott]

The banks and fdic, et cetera.

[Bill]

Depends. They're probably not insured. But in terms of supervisory, whether it's just the Fed or whether state banking institutions can also supervise issuers.

[Scott]

Okay, go ahead.

[Bill]

No, yeah, I would think if you're thinking SEC or cftc, I would think the outcome is more likely that non stable crypto tokens, whether the issuance or secondary trading is overseen by one or both of them to some degree. When it comes to stables, it seems more that that's going to fall into the banking bucket rather than investor protection bucket.

[Scott]

We had this sort of interesting scenario in the past administration where there was a chance of stablecoin legislation. But a lot of the things that were floated were, I would say outwardly antagonistic for any non US issuer. Right. There was a lot of fear that tether would be sort of left out in the cold or that stablecoins would have to be issued by, you know, banks in the United States. Now you have obviously Lutnik as the Department of Commerce and he's a, I think 5% other in tether and Cantor Fitzgerald basically custody's tether assets. Do we think now that tether or others that are issued offshore have a much better chance of being a part of this? Or is there still a fear actually that it could sort of follow this America only rhetoric and we could have, you know, the tethers and others basically not given approval in the United States.

[Bill]

I think the US market is so big that if we set out the rules, everyone's going to fall in line in terms big in terms of economic mass. You can't really run a stable coin and be as big as you want to be and cut out the United States. So what I think happens is they're going to write stablecoin rules. Tether is going to click its heels and salute and do what it needs to do to continue to print billions of dollars in profit.

[Scott]

Find a U.S. banking partner of some sort to go through some sort of exercise that makes them, I mean if.

[Bill]

You were, if you were making 13 billion, what is it a quarter or is that too much? If you're making that much money, you'll do pretty much anything to keep the, to keep the party going. And so yeah, I don't see a stablecoin issuer of any size in the world in the next five years that's not compliant with the United States's program for stablecoins, which is frankly great for the United States. It perpetuates the supremacy and the UBIQUITY of the United States dollar, which is good for everybody.

[Scott]

100%. Simon.

[Simon]

Yeah, well, if Europe is anything to go by, Mica basically made it where stable coins are, just not what stable coins are today. The beauty of stablecoins is that you're able to send a digital dollar anywhere in the world and they regulate the on ramps and off ramps and then you have to have backing and transparency and all that type of stuff. The way they function right now is a recipe for success. The problem is travel rule. And so with travel Rule, they want you to have be able to pass on just like a bank account the details of the sender and that is a U.S. heavy regulation. But it was also implemented in Europe. And so if they go for travel rule, which I can't imagine why they wouldn't, there'd have to be a miracle here because it would give such a competitive advantage to stablecoins over banks. It will just completely change the nature of how stable coins are. You'd have to have an element of kyc. They couldn't be used for defi. It would almost be like a security token. So everyone needs to watch this. They need to be actively involved. There could be. If we could keep stable coins as they are today, it would change the world. If they do what they did in Europe, which I think they will do in America, of travel rule, then literally it will break all of the innovation and turn it into a digital bank deposit, which will be clunky and problematic.

[Gastón]

Definitely a good take, Simon. I know we're going to be doing a spaces at 2:45 to kind of go over exactly what David's going to be discussing in the press conference later. So we would also love you to join that. But for this spaces here we are here with a sponsor, Earn M. And just a disclaimer before we get started. Mario's company ibc does marketing, incubation and investing sponsors on this show. Our sponsors working directly with ibc, not necessarily crypto, Town Hall Scott or even myself specifically. So Ernam, not sure who we have behind the mic, but would love to kick it off just with a explanation of exactly what the project is for people who have been tuning in.

[Matthew]

Hey Bas, do you hear me?

[Gastón]

Okay, first of all, yeah, yeah, I can hear you.

[Matthew]

Great, great, amazing. So, yeah, my name is Gaston, first of all, so I appreciate the intro and I'm glad to be here. I've been hearing a lot of great things that you guys have been chatting about. We are definitely living in a very interesting time. There are a lot of interesting mechanics that will come into our space that would be to say the least interesting to see. But yeah, basically you earn them. We have one of the largest consumer super apps in the world. We are us based as well. So we are like closely watching all the specific aspects that you guys have been having discussing here in the space. We were basically one of the first super apps to be able to focus on user acquisition. We have a community of over 45 million users. They spend time within the app and they do basically day to day activities. So they get to watch YouTube videos, listen to music, play games, surf the web like they do shopping to some degree as well. And basically the incentive is that they get rewards by doing so. We have different advertisers that we work with and we give some of those rewards in different crypto assets. So it's basically like a rewards ecosystem that benefits the user activity and engagement within the platform specifically.

[Gastón]

Awesome, thank you for that background. And you guys were able to raise over $40 million for some pretty prominent VCs and recently had your TGE. How did the TGE go?

[Matthew]

Correct? Yeah, I mean we actually up until December we were probably one of the long lasting projects that haven't launched token or go under in this space. I mean the initial race we did was over seven years ago, eight now. So it's been a while. We've been really focusing on building a strong community and a specific placement for it to be hosted basically which from a very early stage we realized that it was most important to get users get activity real off chain revenue to be able to make a higher dent in the space. And that's what we did until about two years ago when we started focusing on the web three aspects of it. Since then we were able to create a strong model, strong tokenomic model which as you mentioned launched back in December in 2024. So yeah, I mean we are pretty happy on how things are going right now. There is a lot of work that the team has been putting and there is a lot of attention coming into a few very interesting events that we have coming up in the next month or so.

[Gastón]

Awesome. Yeah, just scrolling your, your website. I mean definitely some, some pretty big partners on here comma three ventures, Magnus Capital, GSR AU21 Capital. So very recognizable people and, and groups on the, the cat, the cap table and. And you also have your initial merge offering coming up which is probably a new term for a lot of people who are, are tuning in. Can, can you explain just first what an initial merge offering is?

[Matthew]

Yeah, totally so it's something we are very proud of. And it goes like in the same direction to what you guys were talking before. The space is going through the maturity phase and there are certain aspects to this maturity that we see on other industries in the world. For example, if you go to tech or media or basically any other large industry in the world, they all have one thing in common which is the consolidation aspect. If you go back like 2013 years ago or like even more in the U.S. for example, you had at least like, like 20, 30 different big media outlets. Right now you only have like four or five. If you go to the text aspect, for example, you see all of these like gigantic acquisitions like amd, apparently the third largest chip manufacturer, or like Apple buying the creators of the, of the multitouch to be able to create the iPhone. So so basically over time the more mature the industry is, the more consolidation exists across the different companies to be able to build greater products using their competitive advantages. That's something that is not really happening in crypto right now. We see a trend where the space is going through that specific direction. We are trying to lead it by basically bringing that consolidation aspect into the space. The merger itself, it's like a new mechanic that we, that we developed with StormX. StormX, it's also a very like old project. They've been around since 2017 as well. They have been missing Binance and Abby over time across all their exchanges as well. And the main thing is like they, they are in a very similar business as ours. They do cashback, which is a business vertical that we never touched on. But they also have a strong user base. They have about like 3,4 million users and they have strong presence in certain Asian markets, especially in Korea and China. We on the other hand, we have a larger community as mentioned before, for about 45 million users. But we specialize on other user incentive activities which at the end of the day creates a good environment but the more for the user. So at the end of the day we are able to join forces with other teams and other companies that are doing something similar to other and the addition, the sum of both companies becomes greater than what we are currently doing separately. It's positive, it's positive for our holders, positive for the space. It's positive for a lot of different entities in the ecosystem. So that's basically what the IMO represents, the initial merge offerings, being able to bring that consolidation into the space.

[Gastón]

So how does this IMO fit into your, your original roadmap? What can people expect in terms of milestones and different developments as you guys are ongoing with the imo.

[Matthew]

That's a very good question. So basically the imo, it's like an underlying process that will happen. It's mostly an administrative concept by now. We started with this process back in October 2024. So basically there's been a while and of course we start working with the storm extreme probably about a year ago, like hashing down the process on this. But basically around October there was a community vote that got approved with a 99.95% approval rate. The community decided that the merger made sense and it was a step in the right direction for both projects. And basically from there we started having conversations with the Exchanges, both Binance, Abid and our Exchange as well, to be able to support the merge. It's mostly like a specific point in time where the tokens are going to be merged into a single one. There's going to be a change in the charts and the different structures around that. So as I said before, it's mostly an administrative stuff. Right now what we are focusing on is to be able to enlarge these revenue opportunities that we have for users and we are also trying to enlarge the size of the community itself. So it's basically business associate to be able to grow both of those aspects, bring better rewards to users and keep distributing the revenue back to them. As a high level metric, to give a little bit of context, we have been able to distribute over $350 million on the last seven years to users that were engaging within our platforms. So that's our mission and that's what we are going to keep doing after the merger?

[Gastón]

That's awesome. And for people who are tuning in, what's the opportunity for them to get involved if they're hearing about ERNM for the first time or hearing about the IMO for the first time, what's the opportunity in front of them right now for them to look into?

[Matthew]

Great. It depends on the type of user and there are different ways everybody can interact with us in many levels. First of all, you can download the app. It's available on Android. It's called the Earn app. If you type that, it will come up. It's one of the largest app downloaded in the App Store.

[Gastón]

Is it on iOS as well or just Android?

[Matthew]

It's just on Android because Apple's a little bit more strict with revenue opportunities generated within the app. It's also way more restrictive when it comes to implementing certain fruit aspects and also the type of audience that we are targeting, it's often present on Android rather than iPhone, especially in international countries. The US is one of the only countries in the world has 80:20 iOS versus Android ratio. But if you go overseas, you see the opposite or even further. Some countries have 95% Android devices versus 5% iOS. So it's a way larger market for the type of, of audience that we're targeting.

[Gastón]

Got it. So, sorry, didn't, didn't mean to interrupt about how people can get involved right now. If they're tuning in, that's fine.

[Matthew]

That's perfect. On top of downloading the app and getting to use it, which will open up some like revenue aspects and the opportunity for people to submit some supplemental income, the token is available on a few major exchanges and also decentralized exchanges, so. So anybody that wants to invest in the token, they are able to just investigate on our website, Twitter, et cetera, and make a decision based on that research. We do have a couple of exciting aspects coming out. We basically developed this area within the company that we call the earn and alternative initiatives, which is basically a division within the company that specializes on high return, low risk projects. So you see how in crypto we have all these different trends going one direction, the other direction on the baseline. The only thing that all of these initiatives or narratives have in common is the fact that they drive a lot of attention and with that attention they also drive a lot of volume. So those are two things that any project wants to capture. The main thing is how you're able to do it if the narrative is going opposite direction as, as your, as your core vision, as your core narrative. So basically we developed this model or this framework where we are able to capture value across the different trends. We did that with the Telegram mini apps a while ago, like eight to 12 months ago. We are doing now with AI agents. And there are also other aspects in the pipeline that we will be ready to roll as soon as we see like an uptick in the attention that basically drives attention and hold their value back to earn them. And it's one of the things that we are most proud of to be able to be nimble enough as a large corp to be able to capture some of those incentives, basically.

[Gastón]

What's your outlook on this vertical specifically within Web3, say in the next three years? Do you see this as a vertical within the market that's going to expand quite a bit?

[Matthew]

You mean AI agents or AI in general?

[Gastón]

Yeah, AI agents, but also like the e web3world as well.

[Matthew]

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's here for the long term, there's no doubt about that. I think people in web 3 have a hard time differentiating what is a good trend because of the market value or the attention that it's seeking versus the actual product or quality value, to put it in a way. And I think we will see larger projects in the space doing more serious work over time that are going to be able to amass a lot of potential within it. I think by the nature of the space, there are also going to be other huge attention drivers that will drive some of the, of the liquidity out of this, of these new technologies. Basically. It's kind of like a mixed answer, but whenever the way I see these things and the way we have been seeing this for the last seven years, that things pop up very quickly, they get a lot of attention and then you get some people that truly understand the way the niche, the network works and they tend to work on over time to create true value, not just high value. Let's.

[Gastón]

So you mentioned earlier about, I think it was, you said 45 million users, is that correct?

[Matthew]

Yes, correct.

[Gastón]

I mean, obviously when looking at the landscape of crypto projects, that's a massive accomplishment thus far. But what plans do you guys have in the near future and maybe even in the medium term as well, to even increase those user numbers?

[Matthew]

Great. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's been a while since we started acquiring this user and figuring out a way to host a safe environment for them. And they come in many different shapes and places. Most of them are within our application, within the super apps. So they are active players. And this allowed us to create strong relationships with other advertisers in the world. So working with Binance, with coinbase, with other web3 apps or other chains as well, as well as different games, different apps. We are partners with Candy, Crash, with TikTok, with some of these other games as well. And they all want something and they all share one thing, which is to get more users. And that's also happening Crypto. Once you reach a certain level where you are able to sustainably grow the user base, you end up in a situation where you can basically get that attention for free because you crack the model. So what I'm trying to say here is there are many different industries in the world that want users and most of the users that these different applications look for are US users or to some degree international English speaking users. So basically the tier one countries like Canada, Australia, the uk, Ireland and New Zealand, but if you go outside of that the users are not really sought after for these partners. I'm from Uruguay and South America. Nobody will pay for an ad for something that is expensive or realistic in that sense. So what that means is that the revenue that the company can make for US users is much larger than what they can make for many other countries in the world. What happens in there is that it creates an imbalance on the cost of acquiring those users. So US users are more expensive because there are more dollars backing incentives behind that. So we find out that there is a single industry in the world that doesn't really care about that mechanic. That industry is crypto. It doesn't matter if you're signing a transaction from Uruguay, the us, Pakistan or whatever it is. It's the same transactions, the same cost, it's the same experience for the user. And that opens up a lot of doors. Basically we figured out that there is an opportunity to be able to acquire very cheap users that are highly valued on web 3. And that's what we have been doing. It's basically an engine that we get to capture audiences through different mechanisms that includes different AOLs, different partnerships, working with other projects, working with other communities, doing simply amazing viral stuff that we get to put on socials through these alternative initiatives division. For example, we actually have a campaign coming in with the Chinese mascot, if you guys saw that. But basically with all the hype and all the buzz around, like Elon and the Chinese in a mask meeting, we've been working with that guy actually for the last like year and a half. He's a big part of ours. It's actually like featured on like on our website across the last couple of years. And we actually ran a campaign with him before. But right now with this new meta, with this new narrative shaping up, it's like great opportunity for us to be able to capture some of that audience as well. So basically it's a matter of staying sharp, figuring out what are the key metrics to be able to look at and execute on those. And that, to be honest, drives a lot of value. Because we cracked a way to be able to generate revenue on chain by using these transactions. The users, the money that comes from our advertisers are giving to users. But users decide to spend on chain through our own smart contracts and mechanisms. So we have an actual way of making money on chain every time a user is completing a transaction.

[Gastón]

Speaking about partners, like going through your website, there's a section notable clients and partners where it's listed as like Robinhood, binance, Coinbase, even crypto.com, some of the largest brands in crypto, and even Launchpads as well, like Ape Terminal. But could you maybe drill down a little bit on how exactly you're working with partners like Robinhood, Coinbase and products like that?

[Matthew]

Yeah, totally. It's very similar to what I was mentioning where I mean, all these partners, basically what they want is users, they want activations, they want more activity on their platforms and you often have different goals. But if you're thinking about an exchange, for example, one of their key goals is to be able to for users to download their apps, create an account, fund the account and then depending on the case, either trade a certain amount of money or just save certain amount of money or stake a certain amount of money. That's basically what the service that we provide to these users, we have this big user base and the best way for us to activate it is to create special campaigns, special offerings with these advertisers. Basically our users have special opportunities to be able to create accounts on binance copies, Robinhood, etc. Depending on their location. And with that in mind, they just go, they follow those steps that I mentioned before and they get on board by doing so. The model, the business aspect of it, it's very straightforward. We get paid a portion of the activity the user is running on the system. So let's say binance gives us 50 bucks every time a user goes through that process. And basically what we do is we rev share it with the user. So the user gets 20, 25, 30 bucks depending on the campaign and the location. We keep the rest. We make the business work on that sense. The user is happy, the partner's happy, we are happy and yeah, are able to grow it further.

[Gastón]

Awesome. Yeah, I love the website and there's certainly for people who are tuning in, a lot more partners that people could go through and really do their own research ahead of the IMO to see whether or not they want to get involved. And Ernam, I really appreciate you guys joining us today. If people are tuning in, make sure you click the green square icon up here and give Earnm a follow. Their website's in the bio there if anyone wants more information on the project. But as we're we're wrapping up, is there any sort of final call to action or anything like that or opportunity that you want to let people know about today?

[Matthew]

Yeah, sure. I think the best way to proceed is check the website, check the Twitter account, you can type earnum.com and earn them AI to be able to look on the alternative initiatives aspect to it. Yeah, that's, that's probably it.

[Gastón]

Awesome. Well, appreciate you joining us today and if people are tuning in, make sure that you give Earnm a follow. I see 334 comments down there, so we'll certainly be going through the through those and I'm hoping that the earnm community is here in good spirits as well. And just another announcement as we're we're wrapping up. So IBC is also hiring for writers, journalists and moderators. So if anyone's tuning in, looking for a great team to join, or if you're a project that's wanted to do an AMA just like this one that Ernam just did, make sure that you DM either the crypto Town hall account or the Mario account. That's that's up here. Mario doesn't personally look at all those DMS, but he has a team of 60 plus people that are helping him with all of the news, all of the business development and different things across go on behind the scenes. So make sure that you DM those accounts up there if you want to get in touch and are looking for an opportunity. So Ernam, appreciate you joining today and wish you guys all the success with the IMO coming up.

[Matthew]

Thanks Matt. I appreciate.