← The Wolf Of All Streets
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- [00:01]
Scott Melker
Bitcoin could soon become the global reserve currency replacing the ever inflating fiat Ponzi scheme of the United States dollar. Not the exact words of Larry Fink, but the exact sentiment. I don't know how this guy has become the most orange peeled human being on the planet, but I'm here for it. And I know that today's guests, Patricenko from Gemini and of course Andrew Tillman from Arch Public are here for it as well. We're going to talk about that and everything else happening in the market and news. Let's go, let's go. What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, also known as the Wolf of all streets. Before we get started, please subscribe to the channel and gently tickle that like, button. I can't. With Larry Fink, it's unbelievable. I'm going to go ahead and bring on Andrew and Padgett. We could discuss it right now. Like, his comments now are more clickbait and insane than my YouTube titles, which I always feel bad about having. Like, yeah, my producer sends me a YouTube title. I'm like, come on, we have to. And then we do. Right, well, Bitcoin to 7 trillion next week.
- [01:18]
Andrew Tillman
I'm waiting for. Did Larry Fink put a picture on his chairman's letter that was like, you know, did he do that with his chairman's letter?
- [01:29]
Scott Melker
Right. Or very sad. Yeah, very inquisitive. Yeah, yeah. Like we're still using my pictures for that. Like my producer has to steal from past podcasts like these screenshots because I won't look what I just did. That was crazy. Did you see that? My camera. Apparently when I do this with my fingers, my camera does something really weird. Okay, anyways, here I am. But yeah, I mean, he still has to like steal pictures from old screenshots because I refuse to do thumbnails.
- [01:59]
Andrew Tillman
But well, Larry has become. And it's extraordinary. It really is extraordinary because that chairman's letter lives on Blackrock's website for forever. It never goes away. That never changes. That's going to live there for forever. Meaning, you know, Larry's got to feel pretty good about the fact that, you know, bitcoin isn't going anywhere. Right. I think Larry disagrees with Mr. McGlone about Bitcoin going down to $10,000. Right. I think Larry feels differently about that. And so Larry has become. And again, this is wild. You know, Larry has become the guy, the reply guy on Twitter for that says bitcoin fixes this for everything. Like anything that comes up. Larry is Bitcoin fixes this or asterisk. Asterisk. IBIT fixes this. Right. So, yeah. Is there a portion of this where he's talking his book? Because their IBIT product is the, you know, most successful launch they've ever done of anything ever. Probably. But again, putting it in a chairman's letter that bitcoin is something that could potentially dislodge the dollar as the world's reserve currency if things get wacky. Again, putting that into writing four years ago, in any version of the world that wasn't hardcore bitcoin, Twitter, if you said bitcoin could, could replace the dollar, you were completely laughed off the stage. You know, completely laughed off the stage. And now the largest asset manager in the universe is, is positing that, you know, that position.
- [03:47]
Scott Melker
I mean, he had to be a Winklevoss twin to say things like that.
- [03:50]
Padgett Patricenko
I mean, I was, I was thinking he was going more the April Fool's route, but, but I, I don't think that's the case.
- [03:55]
Scott Melker
It was pre April Fools. The letter came out. But, but this echoes his previous comments. Right? And people forget these same letters from BlackRock. Years ago, before the ETF even existed, months before they were approved, he was saying the same things, just not as hyperbolically. Right. It's like we've seen him slide down the scale to going full satoshi, and it's, it's crazy. But do you think, Paget, that this is possible? I mean, are we really in a, in a world where the United States dollar is so threatened by our debt that bitcoin could become global reserve currency? Even I'm a pretty hardcore bitcoiner, and even I have my doubts.
- [04:38]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah, I mean, I think, right, let's, let's, let's take a step back here and realize exactly as you guys are saying, Fink's always been kind of pro crypto. Now, obviously he's on a platform where clearly he feels more confident and comfortable talking about it. Right. And expressing it in these types of letters that are going to stay there forever. Exactly. As you mentioned, Andrew, I, I, I don't know if I want to go all the way into thinking that yes, 100%, this is possible, but I, I think he's just capitalizing on, you know, we're all feeling the uncertainty. There's a lot of anxiety in the room and I think more so highlighting like the tokenization and the tokenization of funds and kind of where ETFs and things like Bitcoin could play a role versus exactly what it's going to be. So I think it's leaning more decentralized finance, moving away from traditional dollar. Where does that kind of come into play versus it is this. And it's definitely.
- [05:32]
Scott Melker
He's a clickbait YouTube title. Yeah, he got us to read the letter.
- [05:38]
Padgett Patricenko
Totally, totally, totally. And I think it's. It's an important conversation for, you know, not only BlackRock to be having, but it's, it's driving all the institutional players to do the exact same. Right. And that in turn is getting the retail to follow.
- [05:51]
Scott Melker
Right. I mean, is this just a sales tactic? Like holy crap. My, my.
- [05:56]
Padgett Patricenko
Listen, it's helpful for our entire industry. So for these things. I, I don't think it's a negative.
- [06:01]
Andrew Tillman
Well, it can be there. You know, there can be a litmus test, right. That, that exists out there. And, and that litmus test for me has often been. Okay, so in 2021, I remember walking by in the, in the Whale Lounge. Bill Miller, you know, a really huge hedge fund manager, you know, was there having to do with bitcoin. Right. It's the only meaningful tradfi institutional guy that was even. That I even recognized in 2020.
- [06:29]
Scott Melker
Was it Bill 1, 2, 3 or 4, young Bill or dad?
- [06:34]
Andrew Tillman
It was the older one. Yeah, it was the older one because.
- [06:36]
Scott Melker
His son who actually runs things is a huge bitcoin.
- [06:39]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah, it was the older one. And, and. But then, you know, speed forward to 2024 and you know, not only every meaningful tradfi individual has got this dip their toe in the water. They're either at the conference or they're speaking at the conference. There's politicians all over the place. You know, everybody has, has come to the party. And my guess is in 2025 it will be more so. So the. If, if you're having conversations and I, I assume Larry Fink and his crew are, that there are, you know, meaningful, not only nation states, meaningful corporations, meaningful huge institutions that the idea of adding bitcoin to their balance sheet doesn't necessarily always mean spot bitcoin. It means BlackRock's iBIT product. Then it only makes sense for him to be talking about bitcoin in this way, that it is a serious and meaningful answer to a question that they're. That they're concerned about. So again, you know, we may have a headline that says, oh, GameStop's going to be adding, you know, bitcoin to their balance sheet. They're going to use debt to do it. But that is legitimately worlds away from Larry Fink saying bitcoin could replace the dollar as a reserve. That, that it's hard for me to communicate using.
- [08:04]
Scott Melker
There's no. That's it. He's reached the end game. There's no. There's no further down the bitcoin rabbit hole than you go believing that we're going full Mad Max in the dollar, like implodes.
- [08:15]
Andrew Tillman
Well, yeah. I mean, the only thing he could say that's beyond that is somehow bitcoin's going to be interconnected with AI when it takes over the world. That's the only thing left for him to say that would be beyond, you know, removing the dollar as the world's reserve currency. So it's, It's. It's nuts. I can't believe it.
- [08:34]
Scott Melker
I think it's also important to note that, you know, he doesn't just talk about bitcoin in all of these letters. He continues to still beat the drum on tokenization. And, you know that we're going to tokenize literally every asset. He's actually doing it on Ethereum and to some degree now I think they have assets on says he vows to unlock private investments for the masses, saying things like, I don't know, that private markets should be open to everyday investors, not just the wealthy few, to share more of the gains from economic growth. And he's going to do this through tokenization. I mean, he's like running the whole gamut. It's just wild. It's wild to me. But I think bitcoiners obviously focus on these incredible statements he makes about bitcoin, but he's talking about the promise of the rest of the market as well, which, to be frank, is tens to hundreds of trillions of dollars in opportunity, much larger than the bitcoin side.
- [09:29]
Andrew Tillman
I mean, I'm waiting for Larry Fink to just say, go where dollars don't, and he's like skiing on the moon, right? Yeah, yeah.
- [09:39]
Padgett Patricenko
But question as we look at Larry Fink, obviously prominent figure having all of this impact in the space going viral, however we want to categorize it, you know, the question still, I think remains is you. You've got Trump at the top, right? And we can touch on kind of what him and his family and the news that's coming out there. But his focus continues to be this US dominance in the US dollar, right? And the US is going to become the global crypto capital. Right? So I think Larry Fink, again, we're in the same conversation here of where do those two align? How can they run simultaneously or do they? Not at all.
- [10:18]
Scott Melker
Yeah. I mean it's an interesting sort of departure there because he's basically saying he's anti US Government or criticizing the government wildly for what they're doing. I mean it's a great point. Maybe there's the argument that bitcoin strengthens the dollar, but that's not the one that he's making. We've heard Trump say that, we've heard Lummus say that. We've said that putting bitcoin on the balance sheet would strengthen the dollar, pay down the debt, all those things. We have the Bitbond proposal. I guess we could talk about that as well. I don't know if you all saw that but you know, now I don't have the company in front of me or the institute that proposed it, but basically, you know, creating bonds backed by bitcoin that would pay off the national debt, that's a real thing.
- [10:57]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. Whether or not it's going to pay off the national debt is a different conversation. Which seems borderline absurd. But there will be bit bonds. I mean bit bonds will actually happen that, that word six to nine months from those actually happening in a meaningful way and being available to the public. And, and you know, then there's the connection with strategy as a company. And at what point do they go from just a company that is acquiring bitcoin to a full on bitcoin backed bank? I mean that, that, that absolutely is in their, you know, that that's on their roadmap. There's, there's no doubt about that. So you know, bit bonds are going to be a thing. Bitcoin options are a thing, swaps are a thing, futures are a thing. It's all a thing. And so the question becomes who and where and what is money to be made? And that's where Larry Fink and the fellows, that's where they show up. And so the tokenization of real world assets, the tokenization of anything, we're again very much on the precipice of every market, every stock, every, everything, you know, being tradable 24, 7. You know, we're at 24, 5 on some, you know, the NASDAQ and the like coming up soon. It's only a matter of time until we go 24 7.
- [12:21]
Scott Melker
Padgett, I love your point about the Trumps. There's a lot of news around them lately. Obviously there was an article that pointed out that they own 60 to 75% of world liberty Financial and have complete control effectively of that. And we've Seen what they've been doing, it's very transparent. We also have Trump sons launch new mining business called American Bitcoin. This is with hut 8, I think this was announced yesterday. And a public company boasting Trump's sons on advisory board is buying BlackRock Bitcoin ETFs. This is dominary Holdings, a wealth management firm. They're putting it on their balance sheet. We have Meta Planet in Japan acquiring another 696 billion for 67.9 million. Look who's in the picture. It's Eric Trump. I believe he's now an advisor to their company or on the board as well. I mean the Trump Sons seem to have their fingers in literally everything right now in our industry.
- [13:13]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, clearly as your article kind of cadence their shows, they are touching a lot. You know, to be honest, I think I personally am yet to kind of read all the details of what it looks like and, and exactly their involvement at more than advisory level. But right, this is starting from the top. This is again institutional adoption, obviously in a different form as we're leading towards political and literally the in the United States. But I think it's really important to see that even though you've got kind of this moment right now, highest level of policy uncertainty since we were in Covid. Right. Simultaneously you've got all this positive news going on about crypto. I mean that has to lead to adoption. Right. This has to kind of come out the other end. And so trying to see where that drives this market. I don't know, I'm not seeing too much crazy activity just yet, but, but hopeful in the long term. And I think, you know, need to understand the details exactly what the Trump's involvement really looks like more than just the headlines.
- [14:19]
Scott Melker
I mean they're good figureheads for any company on the board. Give a bit of equity and get the press photos right because they're the hottest thing in crypto right now. It's like Hansel and Zoolander. But that's for anyone who's seen that movie, of course. But you mentioned Hansel. So hot right now. Anyways, you guys, you brought up Michael Saylor, Andrew. I mean this guy is out of his mind buying bitcoin right now. They just had their biggest purchase of the quarter, 1.9 billion more dollars of bitcoin holding now. Well, more than 500,000 bitcoin. How the hell is there enough demand for everything he's doing for them to just casually be buying bitcoin billions on a monthly Basis.
- [15:03]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [15:04]
Scott Melker
So running out of answers for this.
- [15:06]
Andrew Tillman
So the demand, it's, it's, it's fairly simple. Right. Is for every, you know, billion that he buys, somebody's selling him a billion. Somebody somewhere is selling him a billion. It's simple supply and, and demand story that exists out there. So when people say, well why isn't bitcoin higher? It's at 83 and change and sailors buying a billion because somebody's selling him a billion. That, that, that's how it works. So, you know, I think the sailor story is really something that's going to be interesting to watch over the next 24 months because you know, there's a, there's a, again, tea leaves exists for them to be the first of scale Bitcoin bank. And given all the paper, bitcoin that is now proliferating and being part of the story, whether it's options or futures, because options and futures are now playing a bigger role, specifically futures, than they did when they first came out. So bitcoin futures has been around for a fairly long time, but they weren't used or leveraged in any meaningful way compared to where they are now. The fact that Bitcoin ETFs exist and now you could play that arbitrage associated with futures and spot Bitcoin, now they're being used in a big way. So given the paper that's out there, you know, strategy is in a position where they become the world's, let's call it first bitcoin backed bank. And I think that's where they're headed because you know, I said this the other day to somebody, you know, if you were to ask 25 people on crypto Twitter, what did or does MicroStrategy do as a company before they turned into a bitcoin holding company? Nobody would have any idea. Nobody would have any idea.
- [16:55]
Scott Melker
But by the way, he was still a billionaire from that business.
- [16:57]
Andrew Tillman
Correct? Correct, Correct. So, you know, where does strategy go in terms of its market cap? Where does strategy go? Because banks, you know, as, as big as a JP Morgan looms over the financial markets, their market cap is not extraordinary. It's, it's, it's not as big as most people would think that it is because financial institutions, they've almost become like grocery stores, their margins are fairly limited. But at the same time, would those margins significantly adjust if you're a bitcoin based bank? And that's where strategy's headed?
- [17:36]
Scott Melker
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't push price up his purchases, obviously. I mean even $2 billion in a week is a rounding error for volume on Bitcoin. If it was, if it was spaced out. I guess it really begs the question why isn't he dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin using Arch Public on Gemini.
- [17:54]
Andrew Tillman
That's right. That is right. That is right. That's a good question. We've. Well, yeah, I'm gonna be honest. We've, we've reached out a couple times. We have.
- [18:05]
Scott Melker
I texted him last week and I'm still on. Delivered quietly.
- [18:14]
Andrew Tillman
No, but I think.
- [18:15]
Padgett Patricenko
Right. Like just to agree with you guys on kind of microstrategy and where, where it stands right now. I mean I think the reality rate is that or strategy, I should say. Sorry. I still call it Twitter, you know, and it's not just based off of holding bitcoin and what the price looks like. There's a buyer out there taking advantage of it, continuing, you know, you know, to make their holdings grow. But I think the reality is outside of strategy and outside of investors investing in that, based off of his non stop purchasing abilities, it seems. Right. There's other strategies out there for investors and I, you know, not to give Arch a plug. Right. But that's, that's exactly what we're here to talk about. And that's exactly why this makes such a difference because we're gaining access in a similar fashion to potentially what strategy is running on their own. Right. So Andrew, I don't know if you want to highlight that more so but like would be curious how we can, how you could explain to kind of the daily investor their ability to do the same thing. Right. There is a buyer out there. That's exactly what this algorithm is.
- [19:23]
Scott Melker
Literally do it better. It literally does it better than he does.
- [19:25]
Padgett Patricenko
Exactly.
- [19:26]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. So, so he just, you know, even though it's a weekly. Right. For all intents and purposes, he's taking the capital via microstrategy or that's given to him by the banks and he's Smash buying at 86 or Smash buying at 83. And so Arch Public's algos are not doing that. They're looking for entry points based on parameters that exist. And they're catching the bottom of a red candle or they're selling at the top of a green candle. And again that's, that's part of the math associated with what we do is you'll never make a purchase in the middle of or at the top of a green candle. Your, your purchases will always happen at the bottom of a Red candle, which is extraordinary. Very, very, very, very hard to do emotionally. Right. So look at that big red candle on your, on the left hand side there. You're buying at the bottom of that candle. You're buying at another bottom of that red candle. So 78 and 80. Right. And then, then in the middle there, you're selling at the top of a green candle. So both of those are emotional issues where you're thinking, wait, bitcoin's breaking out higher. Look at this candle. It's, it's, it's moving big time. And, and we're going higher. So I'm just gonna hold on, I'm gonna hold on. I'm not gonna do anything. Nope. The algorithm says we're gonna sell at the top of this candle and we're gonna sell a small portion of what.
- [20:52]
Scott Melker
You imagine if, imagine if sailor like was vocally even using something like this and even selling a little bit to maximize his bitcoin.
- [20:59]
Andrew Tillman
Oh my gosh, I wish I could lose their mind.
- [21:03]
Scott Melker
Yeah, it solves all the emotional issues of trading. I wish it could solve all my other emotional issues. Can you create that algorithm, please? I mean, by the way, Saylor is not the only person buying bitcoin in droves. Obviously. I showed you Meta planet, you mentioned GameStop buying Bitcoin, but I mean, tether just stacking, man. 8,888 more Bitcoin. In Q1, they're holding 7.8 billion. And by the way, Tether makes more money than BlackRock.
- [21:36]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Scott Melker
And JP Morgan and all those financial institutions that you mentioned. I think it's pretty clear that not only are stablecoins probably the killer app of crypto in general, but that nobody is going to make more money in that department than Tether. I mean, this is crazy.
- [21:56]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah, well, Tethered, you know, I think there are about two and a half tether truthers left on crypto, Twitter. You know, their, their last dying sort of thing that they were holding on to is Tether CEO wouldn't, wouldn't make it to, you know, the USA and wouldn't step foot on, on the United States.
- [22:15]
Scott Melker
Went to Washington.
- [22:17]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. And that is no longer the case. So he's been here and spent a lot of time here and spent some time, you know, in the halls of our government. That's not a surprise. Teller is a massive buyer of treasuries. Right. Whether that was by design or some strategy to put them in good graces. Well, good on them, it worked. And, but now they, they've got A behemoth. And you're right about stablecoins being a killer app. Whether or not that's sexy enough for everybody, I don't know. But at the same time, it is significant and massive adoption that, I think happens first in terms of the legislation that that happens. So that can lead to additional killer app stuff with crypto, with, you know, tokenization. Right. So you get the stable coin stuff happening that leads to tokenization and the Larry thinks of the world doing what they're doing. Yeah, I think. I think that's where we're headed in terms of the use case overall of crypto.
- [23:24]
Scott Melker
Padget, what are you generally seeing the most interest in on Gemini right now? This is kind of a pivot to markets, but obviously the feeling right now is that people want bitcoin, degenerates want meme coins kind of, and nobody wants anything else.
- [23:41]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah, I mean, I think generally speaking, we still see, you know, consistent volumes across the top 10, you know, assets that. That we typically would. Stable coins are hot. They have been, you know, I think some can argue they're the future of crypto. I think for a native crypto investor, maybe that's not the case. But there are a lot of use cases that have come out around stable coins and, you know, again, why they're such a popular asset. Generally speaking, you know, Gemini spans the gamut in terms of the assets that we do support. 70 plus assets across stablecoins, top by volume, ERC, 20s and so on. So I think ranges depending on, you know, what we're looking for.
- [24:23]
Scott Melker
It's interesting because this is obviously the lowest hanging fruit for legislation as well. Right. We have the Genius act from Hagerty on the Senate side, among others. And we now have pretty clear ideas from Congress as well, seemingly mostly bipartisan ideas. And I think everybody's very bullish on the fact that we get stablecoin regulation. But I think it's important to remember that doesn't mean the stablecoin regulation is necessarily going to be great. Right. I mean, there was a story today I just brought up Binance drops USDT in Europe. What are your alternatives? Right. And that's because of their constraints with mica, which we all celebrated because at least Europe did something. And that was the period where we thought any regulation is better than no regulation, even if it's not ideal. Right. We just want some clarity. But there could be potential landmines, I would say, with the way that stable coins will be regulated in the United States. And I mean, I know you don't speak for the exchange in that regard. But like, you have to probably be careful at which stable coins you even allow to be traded in pairs, and that could be wildly affected by what comes. So even in this better regulatory and legislative environment. Environment, how do you guys sort of navigate guessing what's likely to come?
- [25:33]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah, I think it's less of a guessing game and taking kind of an educated, risk averse approach, to be honest. Given the way that Gemini itself is regulated. We have a pretty intense token review process. You know, a committee that meets lots of numbers, volumes, you know, overall appetite from our current investors and obviously the potential of future investment there that goes into any sort of new asset that would be listed and made available on Gemini to our end users, whether that be stablecoin or not. Obviously always looking to expand what our support looks like. But there's a lot, Scott, that goes into how we make the decision to move ahead with a certain asset, stablecoins included.
- [26:18]
Scott Melker
Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
- [26:19]
Andrew Tillman
Politics is the ultimate game of law, of unintended consequences. So, so you're, you're, you're, you know, what you think are your best intentions can be rife with, oops, I, I didn't think of that. And you know, that headline associated with, you know, tether on Binance is a great example of that. I think we'll see some of that here in the US Is that, you know, best laid plans often sometimes turn into, oh, three years ago if we'd have just done this a little bit differently now that there's been a shift, you know, that we didn't take advantage of. Now we're kind of locked out of that deal. Right. So it kind of is what it is now, to be fair. You know, six to nine months ago, we lived in a world where Bitcoin and Ethereum were effectively the only approved cryptos that existed in the United States. Everybody else and everything else was under investigation. Right. So we've moved beyond that. So it's, it's. And again, because we live in the world of crypto and crypto, Twitter of all places, you know, our attention spans are, you know, really small. And so we were like, well, who cares that that all happened? You know, we're in a new spot. So what are we doing today? At the same time, though, you know, politics and business can often be, you know, a sticky thicket, they say.
- [27:45]
Scott Melker
I mean, when you talk about unintended consequences. One of my favorite comments by Palo Arduino when we had a podcast many months ago, but he said, listen, the Biggest threat to Tether in Europe is that we have to put it a certain amount in a bank in Europe. He's like, look at Silicon Valley bank. He's like, US DC did not plan to potentially lose $3 billion in the backing that they were keeping in cash because of the bank failure. Luckily, the Fed came in with the bullzooka and protected Silicon Valley Bank. But MICA regulations and unintended consequences that Tether and others have to back a certain amount of their stable coins with Euros or money in a fractionally reserved bank in Europe. Those banks blow up and there go your reserves.
- [28:34]
Andrew Tillman
So from a banking standpoint, the other large bearded guy that isn't here today, he's made this point a couple times that, you know, there are more than 4,000 or so banks here in the United States and over the past 10 years, over 500 of those banks have failed. Right. You don't see that headline. You see a Silicon Valley bank or a First Republic. Those are huge institutions. And so there are institutions all over the place. One of the points that he was making is if you're a corporation and you're going to have Bitcoin on your balance sheet versus 12 different, you know, bank accounts because you're only insured up to 250k for each of those bank accounts, does it make more sense that Bitcoin goes to zero or one of your banks fails? Like the actual percentages is that a bank is going to fail versus Bitcoin going to zero. So yeah, you know, Paulo, making a really good point there that that's a serious risk for them associated with probably one of the reasons why they buy a bunch of Treasuries.
- [29:34]
Scott Melker
Yeah. Padgett, when you look at what a strategy is doing, for example, and the idea that they could become a Bitcoin bank, is there a world where the legislation is so clear and the regulation is so clear that an exchange in the United States can do the same thing? I mean, I think it went wildly under reported. But Robinhood, obviously not just crypto exchange, is turning into a full on bank like in a month. Right. They feel like they're able to do it. And I mean you're going to be able to basically on Robinhood, you know, have your not have to connect to your bank account to get money in and out. I mean that should be theoretically the case for Gemini and others as well, if we get that kind of clarity.
- [30:15]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah, I think it all comes down to clarity. Obviously. Can't assume and have no control there in terms of, of what the outcomes may be, but I think Robinhood's move is, is massive. Right. In terms of how they can leverage this kind of like tech first approach to becoming a new age, new era type of bank, obviously appealing to a certain type of age demographic as well. So I think that's really interesting. Tbd. I'm not sure, I'm not sure what's going to happen. I would love to see the continued growth. Obviously we've seen that since the early days of Gemini and, and what we started as in terms of an institutional grade custodian and how that's expanded on to include trading and stablecoins and all these other assets. So would love to see, you know, the future and ability there to grow, but it really does come down to regulation and I think we're in a hot spot right now. And obviously we all know how Trump feels about cryptocurrency, but what, what does that look like? A few, a few more years down the road, right? Still pretty early on.
- [31:14]
Scott Melker
Have fun playing with your bitcoins.
- [31:16]
Andrew Tillman
Well, again, in context, four years ago, people were marching at the, you know, at Robin Hood at their headquarters and throwing feces at the front of their building, right? So that happened associated with the Gamestop deal. And now they're turning into a bank and they're hand delivering cash to people in certain, certain ge, you know, geographies.
- [31:42]
Scott Melker
What is up with that? Like, why isn't the door dash guy just taking your cash? I don't understand. It seems like wait for the right order. If it's enough cash, you're just out.
- [31:53]
Andrew Tillman
Like, hey, that feels a smidge risky, to be honest.
- [31:57]
Scott Melker
That's really. You can also like finance your burrito at Chipotle now, right? I mean, there's some wild things happening out there.
- [32:02]
Andrew Tillman
Crypto's got to get involved in that somehow. I mean, you gotta. Can you stablecoin your burrito or something? I mean, that's gotta be something you could do, you know, I mean, delivering.
- [32:12]
Scott Melker
Cash to your door is so that.
- [32:15]
Andrew Tillman
That'S my point about where do we go, you know, your question to Padgett about, you know, Gemini and their, you know, evolution as a financial institution where we may be four years from now with the likes of Gemini and others could be in extraordinary places. And the reason is, is because look at where Robin Hood was. Look at where Robin Hood is. Nobody would have guessed in 2021 when all of that happened. And, and they're giving, you know, they're sitting in front of Congress, you know, talking about their relationship with Citadel that they'd even be really in existence anymore. But now, not only their existence, but they're, they've, they've rose from the ashes and they are where they are. So that, you know, there's, there's, there's opportunity everywhere. You know, whether it's good or bad, that sort of this, the strictures of regulations have been, you know, dampened in a huge way and removed. While there's, there's new risk associated with that. It means that you can run really fast. And so, so we'll see, you know, how the industry evolves with that, you know, wide open spaces for them to, to available to them.
- [33:28]
Scott Melker
Are we hopeful that the legislation that we get actually is what we want? I'm pretty hopeful. I wonder what it means for Tether. I think it's not a bad thing that they have Lutnick as, you know, Commerce Secretary since he's a major shareholder and custodies or assets at Cantor Fitzgerald. But Andrew, if you had to handicap it, do you think Tether will be fully allowed to participate in the United States as a stable coin?
- [33:54]
Andrew Tillman
Well, it's going to be a tether versus USDC battle that, that, that's what's shaping up in that legislation right now. And so you're, you functionally have, let's call it coinbase versus Tether. And, and so we'll see how that plays out. You are right. Having Lutnick as the, the pseudo custodian of all things. Tether being the Commerce Secretary is extraordinarily helpful. So, yeah, I think they'll make it through the process. It's almost entirely because of Lutnick, it would be my guess because Lutnick and Besant are the treasury secretary are sort of arm and arm locked with this stuff and Besant isn't going to do something that's going to dramatically hurt, you know, treasuries here in the United States. And you know, they, they own a ton, right? So I think they'll, I think they'll, they'll live in harmony associated with USDC as well. But those are going to be the preferred stable coins here in the United states. You know, 24 months from now.
- [34:58]
Scott Melker
I just want to show you a hilarious tweet or comment which is about Lutnick. Politico's White House bureau chief Dasha Burns writes in with new reporting on Lutnick's role as one of the biggest internal proponents of Liberation Day. By the way, that's obviously the TARIF coming in the next couple days. The potential Economic fallout from tomorrow's tariffs may well find Letnick himself liberated from his role in the administration, according to multiple people close to the White House. Yikes. What if Letnik's not there?
- [35:26]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah, I'm. I'm gonna pass on the viability of Politico's reporting. Sorry, Politico? Yeah, they're. They're awesome. So, yeah, Lutnik's not going anywhere. There's no chance Ludnick's going anywhere. That's. That's my reporting. How about that? How about that? My reporting.
- [35:45]
Scott Melker
I like it, but I guess pageant, like, as funny as that is, I mean, I think everybody's kind of holding their breath to see what happens in the next couple days at this point. And crypto clearly now trading with macro uncertainty.
- [35:59]
Padgett Patricenko
Yeah. 100, I think, really, really interesting moment. You know, I wish I had a crystal ball, but obviously, personally don't. Sitting back like everyone else and watching and, you know, obviously hopeful and. And would like one direction over another.
- [36:13]
Andrew Tillman
But again, there's such a dichotomy between retail and institutional and crypto right now. It's extraordinary. Right? Retail is worried about tariffs and price movement, and institutional is like, hey, there are no rules anymore. Let's build stuff really fast. Right? That. That's the difference here. So there's a reason why Larry Fink is putting out a chairman's letter that's talking about bitcoin and crypto as if it's his last breath. Right? So that's the institutional side. And then we're over here in retail saying we're worried about tariffs and, you know, because, I don't know, we have nothing else to be worried about. It really is something to see the difference when for years and years and years, it was the difference. Retail was super excited and. And institutionals, like, you guys are dumb and weird. We don't want to talk to you. Right.
- [37:02]
Padgett Patricenko
But at this point, Ray, everyone's watching, Watching and waiting to some degree. If we look at pricing over the past couple weeks, we're in this trading range, and I think it's exactly for this reason.
- [37:11]
Scott Melker
Yeah, yeah, my crystal ball definitely not working. Because I've thought Ethereum was bottoming, like, 10 times.
- [37:22]
Andrew Tillman
Well, those are the best memes lately, right? It's like, hey, FBX is giving their money back, and then you get this, and you get this. But Ethereum's the same price.
- [37:31]
Scott Melker
Yeah. You get Solana for 25 bucks. You get paid back on Solana at 25 bucks. Get paid back at Bitcoin at, like, 20 grand and you get paid back in profit on Ethereum.
- [37:40]
Andrew Tillman
Hey, good for ftx one to one Ethereum, I mean, that's in kind distribution, right?
- [37:45]
Scott Melker
Maybe that's the stable coin we should be talking about. Patch, I think we kept you over time. I'm sorry.
- [37:51]
Padgett Patricenko
No, no worries at all. Always enjoy talking to you guys.
- [37:54]
Scott Melker
I just looked at the clock, guys. Give Pageant a follow her exes down in the description. I'm going to keep Scott.
- [37:59]
Padgett Patricenko
I will say there's a pretty good image on. On Gemini Twitter right now. Obviously leaning into April Fools today. Trying to be humorous and, and playful with what we're putting out there, but I think it's worth sharing. Just, you know, circling back to the beginning of our conversation and, and where crypto and the US Dollar purchasing power is kind of a fun one.
- [38:24]
Scott Melker
I was fast on that one.
- [38:25]
Padgett Patricenko
I did that myself.
- [38:27]
Andrew Tillman
That's well done by the. By the Gemini Twitter team, right? Yeah, it's very well done. That's a great. That's a. That's an I love like, this looks.
- [38:35]
Scott Melker
Like the worst meme coin chart ever. It's like, you know, it like has its little volatility, then just dies and then just flat lines. Yeah, flatline. Slow, slow bleed to zero.
- [38:47]
Andrew Tillman
Well, I mean, you know, it would be a shock if. If Larry Fink shared this at some point later today.
- [38:53]
Scott Melker
Exactly.
- [38:53]
Andrew Tillman
I mean, that's kind of the point he made in his chairman's letter.
- [38:56]
Scott Melker
So, you know, we need him to retweet.
- [38:59]
Padgett Patricenko
Please retweet. Yeah, listen, we'll see what happens over the course of. Of today. X is a powerful place.
- [39:05]
Scott Melker
It's going to be an interesting few days, regardless. Pageant, thank you so much as always for joining.
- [39:10]
Padgett Patricenko
Thank you, guys.
- [39:13]
Andrew Tillman
So listen, here's the thing. I don't want to listen.
- [39:17]
Scott Melker
I don't want to know what you were holding back for when she disappeared. You're like, okay, now that she's gone.
- [39:21]
Andrew Tillman
Dude, here it comes. So, you know, we talk about the. The ability to leverage crypto, the ability to use crypto in a way that's meaningful when most people are just throwing 4, 500 in a meme coin and losing it very quickly. We're about to put out a case study at Arch Public that takes the volatility associated with Solana, takes the underlying volatility associated with bitcoin, takes both of those cash yield returns on a weekly and monthly basis, and then intelligently puts it back into Bitcoin. Right. So there you go. Right. So there's volatility staring you in the face. Our arbitrage strategy on both Solana and Bitcoin is taking that. There's Solana is, is taking that. Is. Is taking that volatility and generating cash yield on your behalf, selling at the tops of green candles and then returning that capital into our intelligent accumulation portion of the Algos to buy more Bitcoin. So you're not only accumulating Bitcoin on the ARB strategy, but you're significantly increasing that accumulation by adding intelligent accumulation on the back end. So what happens is, is you're now running three algos inside of our algo, right? And they're all doing something that ends up with you having more Bitcoin. And it's just, it's extraordinary stuff. We, we keep gathering what our users are doing and telling us and showing us. And one of the things I was going to say when Padgett was on, people that use our algos get an extraordinary discount with fees. So we had somebody show us that they bought some Solana just normally on Gemini and it cost them $4 and like 33 cents or something. And then they used our Algo to, to buy the same amount and it was 87 cents. So you get 80% reduction in fees. You get automated algorithmic returns that generate cash yield that then is returned back into Bitcoin and you're buying at base levels versus where price is right now. And you're doing all of it without using your fingers or being obsessed with your computer or sitting in front of it for 24, 7. It's all being done in an automated way. I've said this now for six weeks on this show. You cannot find this technology anywhere else on the planet. You can't go to Coinbase's OTC desktop or Gemini's OTC desk or anybody's OTC desk and get these tools. Even if you have $50 million that you want to put into Bitcoin, they don't have it for you. Only we have it. And again, the money line is it's free. If you want to use it and play with it and benefit from it, it's free. Go use it. So another art. Everybody should be using it.
- [42:35]
Scott Melker
Another arch.
- [42:36]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah, another arch Public commercial. Because this is one of one technology, my friend. Tee it up for me if you want. It is one of one technology. You can't find it anywhere else. And if you want to leverage the volatility that comes with crypto, which is a feature and a benefit, not a problem, it's not a flaw. You're able to put yourself in a position that 99% of people that are in this market can't put themselves in. You're making decisions with zero emotions. You're stacking significantly more Bitcoin and you're leveraging altcoins to be able to do that. Most people say that they want to do that. Well, I'm going to buy some Solana and some Ave and some Ada and some Pepe, because then I'm going to take those gains and put it into bitcoin. You can't do it. It's impossible to trade like that and do it. This does it with your hands off and you actually can do it for free. Yeah.
- [43:34]
Scott Melker
One of one technology. I like that.
- [43:36]
Andrew Tillman
It is it. There's no doubt about it. Now listen, at some point it won't be one of one technology. Somebody else will do this somewhere or an exchange will do it somewhere and, and, and people will have access to it beyond us. But right now it's only us. You can only find this with us and our algos in the crypto space. They're, they're, they're. So there's, there's no level of diversity that you can't get to. You can run three of them, you can run 12 of them, you can run seven of them, you can run 15 of them at the same time and turn yourself into a mad scientist and then click, go. And it's all going to do its thing on its own. It's a, it's a unique tool. It's extraordinary tool.
- [44:18]
Scott Melker
We all tell our wives that we're one of one technology, but.
- [44:20]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah, we do. We do. Yeah. I'm just glad you made it back from your boys weekend or whatever you.
- [44:26]
Scott Melker
Dude, it was absolutely epic. I was trying and, you know, I was like, I got 13 friends together from college. I'm almost 50, so getting, getting the whole crew together and you know, we were in the Bahamas at the casino. I mean, wow. I had one of those straight out of the hangover roles. Cap stable. Like, it was, it was amazing. I tried to tell, I tried to tweet Emmy about it. I was like, it was like a top five life moment. She was like, love you, bro. Don't care.
- [44:54]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [44:54]
Scott Melker
I tried to get my friends tell her how awesome it was and didn't care.
- [44:58]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. Was there a monkey involved somehow?
- [45:02]
Scott Melker
No, but, like, I was rolling for like, literally 45 minutes. The whole casino was watching because I was being a complete fool and I was with 12 friends and we were cheering and singing. There was A dj, like, right behind us in the club. So, like, I'm dancing to the dj. It's all my favorite stuff. PYT from Michael Jackson comes on, you know, obviously.
- [45:20]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [45:21]
Scott Melker
Dancing and having a good time. But then.
- [45:23]
Andrew Tillman
Right.
- [45:23]
Scott Melker
So we're all, like, fully leveraged on the table. Everything. Point is an eight. My friends have, like, 500 bucks on the heart eight. You know, like, wild, stupid bets. It's like, you know, pretty young thing.
- [45:34]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Scott Melker
After me. So I'm like. I'm saying it, and then I start pointing at the dealers. I refuse to roll. I'm like, nah, nah, nah, nah. And the one lays. No, no, no, no. Like, nah, nah, nah, nah to the other one. And I had the whole table refusing to roll. And then I throw the dice as hard as I can. Hard eight point and the heart eight.
- [45:52]
Andrew Tillman
Oh, wow.
- [45:54]
Scott Melker
I peaked. It's over now.
- [45:56]
Andrew Tillman
And everybody. Everybody freaked out. Yeah. You got to walk away at that point.
- [46:00]
Scott Melker
Casino freaked out. No, you don't walk away. You lose everything on the table.
- [46:03]
Andrew Tillman
That's right.
- [46:05]
Scott Melker
The moment. But, man, it was so.
- [46:09]
Andrew Tillman
I had one of those. Those. Those a couple years ago playing blackjack. And I remember one of the pit bosses would walk by, seeing. Seeing the heater that I was on, and. And about every, you know, sixth or seventh hand, he'd say, wheels aren't up on the plane yet. Wheels aren't up on the plane yet. They know. They know what's gonna happen. You know, they know what's gonna happen. Now, to my credit, I did walk away with a 10x of what I started with.
- [46:33]
Scott Melker
I did exceptional. I. I ended up exceptionally well. I rolled hot the entire weekend. It was. It was just excellent, incredible fun. By the way, there's one story we didn't talk about. That's my favorite story in crypto right now, and it's this one. It's breaking. Wang Chun, who started mining at a dollar, becomes the first bitcoin hodler in outer space. So this Guy funded the SpaceX flight over the polls. First time he's up in space. And literally all I could see is I dying. People of our generation to see this name and not think of everybody. Have fun tonight, everybody. Wing Chun tonight. I mean, the guy's name is Wang Chung.
- [47:11]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. So I feel bad that my. As soon as I saw that, I'm like, wait a minute. Is that the guy from Bitcoin Cash that said, you know what he said, you know, in a response to a thing.
- [47:23]
Scott Melker
He has to be blocked. What's his name?
- [47:24]
Andrew Tillman
F your. F your mother. If you want.
- [47:28]
Scott Melker
Your mother. If you want. Or something.
- [47:32]
Andrew Tillman
It's one of the greatest memes of all time. In.
- [47:35]
Scott Melker
In Crypto, I literally thought of, you know, obviously the song Wayne Chung. And then I, for some reason, thought of 16 candles and long Duck Dong.
- [47:43]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. Oh, man.
- [47:44]
Scott Melker
I'm not like. It's just Wang Chun, but, I mean, his name is Wang Chung. That was a band from the 80s.
- [47:49]
Andrew Tillman
So good. When memes come to life. Right. When memes become real life. Right. Wang Chung in space. I mean, that's. That doesn't get any better than that.
- [48:00]
Scott Melker
It doesn't. So anything else I need to show these people?
- [48:04]
Andrew Tillman
No, it's just, you know, 101 technology. Come use it. Come spend some time with us. And you get wild discounts on commissions, so. Doesn't get any better, man. Don't get any better.
- [48:15]
Scott Melker
Remember the movie Back to School?
- [48:17]
Andrew Tillman
Of course.
- [48:18]
Scott Melker
Wasn't Wang Chung in that movie? Weren't they the band?
- [48:21]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah.
- [48:21]
Scott Melker
It's a dead man's party.
- [48:23]
Andrew Tillman
Yes.
- [48:24]
Scott Melker
I mean, early Robert Downey Jr.
- [48:26]
Andrew Tillman
The mid to late 80s movies about high school stuff. I mean, those are the greatest.
- [48:30]
Scott Melker
Triple Lindy, by the way. They can't make any movie that they made for us in the 80s now.
- [48:35]
Andrew Tillman
No way. No chance.
- [48:37]
Scott Melker
I was talking to my friends about this, like, Revenge of the Nerds. Like, that's a great movie. He, like, literally puts on a mask and has sex with a girl secretly in the Moon Bounce who thinks she's someone else. It's like, that's actually.
- [48:49]
Andrew Tillman
That's right now. No chance. None of that happens. Disney isn't making any of those movies. Put it that way.
- [49:01]
Scott Melker
Disney's not.
- [49:01]
Andrew Tillman
No, no.
- [49:02]
Scott Melker
Revenge of the Nerds cartoon. By the way, it's@archpublic.com. it's right down there on the ticker, in case you guys are wondering. Now we gotta go.
- [49:10]
Andrew Tillman
But, man, one last thing. One last thing before we go. We are still in the Breakfast Club.
- [49:14]
Scott Melker
Not see at Breakfast.
- [49:15]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah. We are still in the midst of our giveaway. So if you download our, you know, our algos, you're in the running to get two industry passes to the Bitcoin Conference. And Arch Public is basically taking over the. The Deep in the. The Whale Pass area. So the Whale Pass Stage and the Whale Pass Lounge, we're taking over sort of the. The Whale Pass VIP experience at the Bitcoin Conference this year.
- [49:43]
Scott Melker
Get it while it's hot, all right? That's all we got. It's been great talking to you, Tillman, everybody. Tillman's gonna be there right?
- [49:53]
Andrew Tillman
Yeah yeah he got in really late on a plane and then they got to drive three hours from Denver to the Aspen area It's a tough life.
- [50:02]
Scott Melker
For well last Thursday I was at a craps table till 3:15 in the morning huh and I got up at 5:45 and wrote a new still feeling the effects of the previous night wrote a newsletter did my show did crypto Town hall regret it yeah every second of the way but I did it.
- [50:22]
Andrew Tillman
He'S gonna hear it from me he's gonna hear it from me this this morning I don't know how much longer I can I can hold the company on my shoulders okay I mean it's.
- [50:29]
Scott Melker
Like getting tired if only you had someone to replace him with yeah you know okay enough guys we'll see you tomorrow thank you Andrew man talk to.
- [50:39]
Andrew Tillman
You later all right see you bye.
- [50:41]
Scott Melker
Everyone let's do.
- [50:50]
Andrew Tillman
Baby that's dope.