A (3:16)

And you like doubled your money in two days?

B (3:18)

Yeah, I bought it not as an investment, but I bought it to test the flow. But yes, the flow testing doubled in two days.

A (3:28)

That was a good flow testing. So you alluded to the fact that the user experience is not quite there yet. Not the first time I've heard that in crypto, strangely. But what is it about it that's lacking? And does any of that translate to a crypto issue? Right. Like that would translate to other crypto or tokenized assets. Looking forward, we all know that that's what's coming, right? So are we a little too excited about what's coming based on the experience that you had with it?

B (3:58)

I would say so. There are a few things, obviously. First, there are things that crypto doesn't always think about. The consumer experience first. Right? And we know that, right? Crypto is like, let me give you access first and then like, I'll figure out the consumer experience second, third, or maybe never, right. And so, you know, like some of the things that I thought were, were funny and actually I'll hold back on like who I bought it with because I don't want it to be like a criticism of them. But you know, I got 25 alerts that my position was going to be liquidated and wait, and at no point was it even close to the liquidation numbers, right. And so right off the bat, right, like it creates a extraordinarily stressful experience, right? To get these triggers non stop that you're going to be liquidated. When, when you go into the app itself to see what was happening, you're like, oh, it's totally fine, right?

A (4:56)

Like I'm way up, like MEXC or Prime XPT or something.

B (5:00)

This is wild. Number two was having to buy on a contract basis is something that's very different for most people in crypto, right. Think about bitcoin, I still firmly believe in the thesis of bitcoin. Right. I think it's one of those funny things where, as you said, hey, we now have digital gold, so do we need bitcoin? Well, digital gold for bitcoin was just a marketing sort of angle. So, yes, I still very much believe in the bitcoin thesis. But, you know, like, when you look at copper, I thought one of the most interesting experiences I had was I had to buy a contract. Right. So, like, it wasn't like buying SATs or being able to buy like a small amount of something. I had to actually put out eleven hundred dollars. Right. Like, and so that's not a small amount to test. Right. And so you look at that and you go, huh? Is that extraordinarily accessible to everyone? I don't think so. Right. But, you know, like, time will tell.

A (6:05)

Yeah. I've been hearing it a lot on crypto town hall and on Twitter that if we have tokenized gold, why do we need, quote, unquote, digital gold? And I think people conflate the, the meanings of those terms. Right. Just because you can trade gold digitally doesn't make it have the qualities that we love about bitcoin. Because that gold is still stored somewhere in someone's bank with a trusted third party and you're trading a paper version of it. Not the same thing. Bitcoin is a, in my mind, bitcoin is a superior version of gold. That doesn't mean it needs to trade like it or that the only beneficial quality is that I can move it from me to you without sending it from vault to vault.

B (6:48)

I couldn't agree with you more. Right. Like, I think first off, if any person who's going to make the argument that tokenized gold replaces the notion of bitcoin doesn't really understand what bitcoin's sort of value preposition is, proposition is, or sort of what makes it unique. Right. In that nature. And, you know, ultimately, in a world where like, you're seeing more global instability than ever before, physical gold still needs, as you said, someone holding it. Right. Like, physical gold still needs to be able to move forward, cross border. Right. Physical gold still needs some sort of centralization. Right. And so, like, there's a lot of protections that bitcoin will provide. There's a lot of benefits that bitcoin provides, that whatever you want to present it as from a marketing angle is irreplaceable compared to anything else.

A (7:38)

And speaking of tokenized assets, some big news that sort of seemingly just Got lost in the, in the mess yesterday, Fidelity investment starts its own stablecoin. A massive bet that future of banking is on blockchain. And then in a similar report, banks to lose up to 500 billion by 2028 as Fidelity's digital dollar launches on Ethereum with freeze powers. Yeah, I think that we all know by the way that any centralized bank led stablecoin is going to have freeze powers. So Heather has freeze powers.

B (8:10)

I'm so happy that our conversation is scheduled for today. Like I said, I could not believe more people didn't talk about this. This is such a. Not the freeze power part, the Fidelity part, right? Like this is in trillion multi trillion dollar issuing like institution issuing their own stablecoin. This is a really big deal, right? Like this is an incredibly big deal and they've been incredibly supportive of the digital asset ecosystem for years. But you look at Fidelity entering into this space like this is the beginning of I think a lot of really good things to take place.

A (8:47)

Well, Philip, Fidelity has been in crypto forever. They're the first institution that was ever here, but they weren't in stable coins, right? So I think this is just a very bold statement or signal for the industry that if the most supportive incumbent of the industry who's been mining since the mid 2010s and who was first to apply for ETFs, they're doing their own stable coin. This is going to get crazy, right? Because everybody's going to have a stable coin. I am not sure how the interoperability is going to work. They did it on Ethereum, so that's a clear signal there. But yeah, man, the stamp of approval for stablecoins couldn't be any more bold.

B (9:29)

But look, here's what I like about the digital metals conversation and the Fidelity conversation is I've been at Moonpay now for three years, just over three years. And you and I have known each other since my time at time. Um, like one of the reasons why I wanted to shift industries so dramatically was like what I saw was the Internet taking on this embedded finance layer, right? And I thought it was just a bigger evolution than anything else I'd ever seen in my life. Bigger than social, bigger than digital. The Internet was getting money, right? The thesis that Ivan, myself and others have been thinking about from moonpay for the past three years has been simply the world is getting faster, more efficient and cheaper. Right? And both of these things are validating of that thesis, right? Like having stablecoins proliferate, right? Just allows for faster Settlement time. It allows for more efficient sort of movement of value cross border. Right. And especially when you start to think about someone like Fidelity, right. It allows them to capture on the economics, you know, really, really nicely.

A (10:38)

So I think the next logical conversation to have is about the state of the Clarity act, which is just getting obnoxious and exhausting for me, but I loved this headline, so I have to laugh. White House Summons Coinbase Banks to Hash out Crypto Bill so listen, clearly this is not at the finish line, right? We do have the Agriculture Committee going to vote on their markup, so maybe some progress. But where this ties into the conversation we were just having about Fidelity is that Coinbase has a very favorable situation right now, right? The Genius act didn't go far enough to eliminate the yield on stablecoins. So Coinbase can still do rewards, quote, unquote. And they're not going to support. Not that they can block this, I don't know, but they're not going to support something that takes away their bread and butter, right? So interesting that the White House is once again air quoting, summoning them, like, get over here and let's figure this out. I mean, you guys, you can speak to this as a president of Moonpay, from your perspective, obviously doing a lot of the same services, operating in the same jurisdictions. Where do we stand on Clarity and how much does it matter for you?

B (11:45)

So, so it's very funny. Again, this is like a weirdly perfectly timed conversation and you would never have known this, but I got back home into New York at 2am yesterday. I was in Washington D.C. last night and you know, I had a chance to, you know, I chatted with Thune, I chatted with Bozeman, I chatted with, you know, a few other senators, just briefly at an event that I was at. And I think the general consensus is we'll get there, we'll get to a solution. I'm not worried about that. Right. From the Moonpay perspective, you know, like, we're slightly different than Coinbase in that for us, the two most important issues for Clarity to move forward, right. Is the definition of defi, right? Like we ultimately are saying to people, regulate us, right? The intermediaries and the on ramps. Right? Like, and you think about it like, what do we do for a living? Like, we are our moat is removing the friction and democratizing access to the Defi ecosystem. Don't regulate the protocols or the developers. Right. That will burden them. Right. The second thing is, is where our view is, is a very strong illicit Finance view, right? Like make sure that know you're not allowing bad actors into the ecosystem. And so like those two things for us work really nicely in the current bill structure as it relates to yield, right? How it is written where like you could monetize, you know, based on the movement of the value, not sort of the sitting of the value. That's okay with us as Moonpay, right? Like, that's not our business to argue over something sitting versus moving. Because ultimately like we're a membrane that allows people to enter into the defi ecosystem. Like our goal is to mock, to democratize access and then once the access goes in, we push out and allow the movement of the value to sort of proliferate there. And so we are slightly different than Coinbase. I respect sort of their position given what they have to achieve, but I think that, I think we're going to have a solution. You know, this, this to me seems like I was a government major in college, Scott, with a focus on American politics, history, theory. This seems perfectly ripe for a solution. Everyone is somewhat upset somewhere, right? So that, that, that seems to be the path forward.

A (14:08)

I was an anthropology major, so I too can talk about how useless my college education is.

B (14:14)

Listen, I, my view of college education, if we're going to go down this path, is I love, I, I, I, I can't stand when people say college is not valuable. I hate that, that colleges like burden people with insane debts, which are crazy. But college is wonderful for the process of teaching you how to think, right?

A (14:37)

You learn how to think and you learn how to be a, you know, a human being interacting with other human beings 100%.

B (14:46)

And, and I think, you know, I think that those are the two areas. Now there are tons of majors useless, right? Like, let's not kid ourselves. But like as long as the major teaches you how to think and process a lot of information, like I see a lot of value in it.

A (15:02)

Yeah, I get roasted for mine all the time because I went to Penn, but I didn't go to Wharton. But I once said to somebody that I took economics at Wharton because if you take a business class at Penn, you're taking that class at Wharton. And so then people said that I was claiming I went to Wharton when I didn't go to Wharton, even though I'm very proud of my Indiana Jones major. And I got like canceled on the Internet by the Whartonites.

B (15:25)

Huh. You know, the first college I ever saw in my entire life. Neither of my parents went to college. The first college I ever saw in my entire life was upenn.

A (15:33)

There you go.

B (15:34)

I loved it. I thought it was gorgeous, but it left me in a city and I needed to get out of the city. Right?

A (15:39)

It was rugged place. When I went there in the 90s, the whole. I know we have diverted horribly here, but the whole conversation when you went on the tour of the 10 in the 90s was where the security blue light phones were.

B (15:53)

I hold on. I vividly remember that. I'm like, what's a blue light phone?

A (15:56)

They're like, they're not telling you about our classes. Tell you how you can call the cops from any block.

B (16:04)

I'm like, this seems so safe. I'm like, philly's gorgeous, right? I watched the Rocky movie.

A (16:09)

Not that part. So we have a lot more to talk about, but I actually want to kind of shift towards mainstream adoption and the announcement that you guys have said specifically had, because this one is very near and dear to my heart. And when I saw it, it was awesome. X GAMES UNVEILS four FRANCHISES moonpay AS Name Partner in Move to League so, first of all, I want you to unpack what this means for Moonpay. But for me, you don't know this, but in 2000, 2001, that era, I actually worked with the X games. I was DJing at the events, and my friend and I decided we had a business idea where we were gonna sell programs at the X Games because they didn't have them. And we had a private business where they allowed us the licensing to sell the programs. We lost a shit ton of money. It was a horrible business idea. But I went to all the X Games in Aspen and they were in Philadelphia in those years when I was just after Penn. So I did a lot of stuff with the athletes and the X Games, and I think it's the coolest thing. But they're getting rid of the X Games as we know it, right? And it's all powered by Moonpay.

B (17:08)

So. So first up, let me ask you. Let me step back for a second. How old are you? I have no clue.

A (17:14)

49. Okay. Young.

B (17:16)

No.

A (17:16)

So my biological age is 36, according to me.

B (17:20)

Okay, so I'm 46. But I will say that my biological age is probably like 98. Right? But, like, you and I like. Okay, so I love the reason I asked you this is you and I grew up with the X Games, right? Like, and I love the X Games, right? You have, you know, Bob Burnquest, you have Tony Hawk, you have Shaun White. Like, these are people who like, like, like it was extreme sports entertainment for me, like growing up where I, like, I still get chills when I think about this. So about six months ago, our head of comms, Julia Morella, and our head of social, Sean Friedland, came to me and they were like, listen, don't say no. Listen to me for one second. We have something really interesting.

A (18:10)

And that's how my kids start conversation.

B (18:13)

Totally, right? Like, they're like, don't say no. We have something very interesting. And so I'm like, okay. And they're like, the X Games has a new ownership. The CEO is a guy named Jeremy Bloom. He's a former Olympic athlete, X Games competer, competitor, and he has a vision with his team to move it from sort of events to a league and to give it foundational structure for, you know, the athletes to be able to make money. Right. And to have a living. Like, you know this, that most of the X Game athletes competed when you and I were growing up for the passion of this sport, right? Not like, like they, they competed because they actually just loved skateboarding or they loved the jumps or they loved the half pipe. Like they didn't get millions of dollars. There were some that made the money, but. And so they said there's this new vision for this. They knew how much I liked sort of any endeavor where it sort of can support the contributors the way that like I did with timepieces back in the day. And so, so we sat down with the X Games and this is where I guess like my, my 20 plus years in media sort of came out. And I sat down with them and I said, look, like, I love the vision of where you're taking it, but for us as moonpage, for it to be valuable, I need two things. One is I, I want the X Games if you're going to evolve it into a league to become the Moonpay X Games league. Right? And the reason is with that logo lockup, like we'll start to build with you as you start to build as well, right. Like we'll commit in that sense. The second is going back to our earlier conversation about clarity. Not to be so dorky and like tie clarity back into X Games, but what does Moonpay do? It democratizes access to sort of defi. And so what is part of our strategy? It's how do we build out every offering for our partners? So all our partners have to do is ultimately, you know, develop a great product. Right? So like think about what our go to market strategy has been. It's Been partner with moonpay on Ramper, right. Which is the aggregator that we have a majority position in that gives you global coverage and redundancy. We then, because if you're defi, you can't technically own your pii, you can't have the personal information of your consumer. We have that personal information. We have a 40 person award winning creative agency with other life in Canada, right. They do everything from MasterCard, they do everything for all of our partners. We'll do all of your marketing for you and then we'll start to distribute you. This is why we partnered with Nelk Boys. This is why we partnered with, you know, you know, you know, the O. Vaughn. This is why we partnered with Fortune. This is why we partnered with, you know, Pomp. This is why we have the conversations with you even.

A (21:15)

Right.

B (21:15)

Like, it's like we put our partners into these ecosystems but in the case of, you know, the X Games, we could now essentially bring all of our partners into the X Games. So we have pass through rights on almost everything. So as we build out sort of our go to market strategy with the X Games, it's doing it with all of our partners in mind and how the entire crypto ecosystem can show up at the X Games. And so it'll kick off in March with a draft. They already have 180, I think, athletes who have gone in and their four teams, New York, LA, Sao Paulo and Tokyo. From there it will have an X Games in Sacramento, followed by Tokyo, followed by New Orleans. Then there'll be a winter draft and it will go out and we've put partner with them for the next few years.

A (22:07)

Sounds like F1.

B (22:09)

Yes. Except it's not. Like I loved F1. My problem with F1 was it's logo soup everywhere. Right. And like for someone like Moonpay, I can't, I can't break out or show an ROI.

A (22:22)

And then this one, oh, we need 17 logos on the wing of each car, 75 on the car itself. But I'm just saying structurally, it's how you have a team that travels from event to event to event to event. We need a Netflix show. We need a Netflix show when Netflix.

B (22:37)

So, so maybe that's happening, maybe that's not. But I will say that it is very much like F1. And the team that acquired the X Games in this change of ownership actually came from the McLaren team in F1.

A (22:54)

Really?

B (22:55)

Yeah.

A (22:57)

That's awesome. Yeah, I did a lot of stuff with them via OkX for, I mean.

B (23:02)

I will say like F1 if you haven't been to an F1 sort of event is amazing. Like, I gotta get. I was in Austin and I will say when they, when those cars go by you, if you like technology, it's an amazing. It's an amazing for me, like, what are the X Games ultimately? And I think you'd agree with this, right? Like, the X Games are counterculture to sports the same way that crypto is counterculture to finance, right? So it's like the alignment is in an absolutely beautiful alignment.

A (23:32)

Yeah, I agree. And I'm not gonna say I'm jealous or anything or that it's weird that I wasn't invited, but I did see pictures of Jeremy with Justin Bieber and gunna in the. What I presume to be the Moonpay box at the bottom of the half pipe in Aspen this weekend.

B (23:46)

So we had nothing at Aspen. Like, Aspen. Like all of the sort of exposure at Aspen that Moonpei had was, was the X Games team just being so lovely and like overly like generous in terms of like the partnership. And by the way, we reciprocated. I don't know if you saw Mark McMorris, like, we doubled his prize money and paid him in crypto, right? And like, he is great, you know, like after he won gold, we want to make sure that like we took care of him from that perspective. But Scott, you're invited to any X Games event you want. Like, we have unlimited tickets. Okay. So if you want to come with here first. Hold on, hold on. Breaking news. Like you, if you want to come with your fam, you can literally just send me a note. We'll make sure that you get to anyone you want. Okay?

A (24:31)

So done. Yeah, I, I was, I was there when Corey Hart tried the first backflip. I was like right there and he crashed 20ft in front of me and his body combusted.

B (24:41)

I turned to Ivan one of the days when we were watching it and I said, it's sort of like living in a video game. It's. It's that wild like. And it's sort of if you go to a hockey event, right? Like, if you go to hockey games, hockey games just feel different. Like, just feels different.

A (24:59)

Isn't Corey Hart, I got my sunglasses at night, Carrie Hart. But he was like dating Pink at the time or something when she was just. Yeah, anyway, yeah, it was, you know, crazy, crazy times back then. I mean, circling back then is this. Do you think that partnerships like this could be one of the catalysts that kind of brings back the Mainstream interest once again. It feels like we're in this dead period where nobody cares about us. It's weird because we have more adoption than ever before.

B (25:27)

Yeah, I, look, I, I find because I've been in crypto now full time for three years, right? It's such an interesting sort of space there. For the first two years that I was in crypto, every single one of my friends thought I was insane for why did I leave media and come into crypto. Then all of a sudden in year three, every one of them was like, oh, I get it. And now, like, I feel like I'm insane again is what they tell me. And I'm beginning to think that if you are considering a career in crypto, you have to get comfortable with the fact that it is the trajectory is a few years of being a idiot to then be followed by being a genius to be followed by being a idiot again.

A (26:13)

You only get to be a genius for like six, Right?

B (26:15)

But I think, I think, and I think that's just as marketing, that's just as much marketing as it, as the digital gold bitcoin problem is. Right? But that's what crypto careers feel like.

A (26:27)

If Bitcoin was $120,000 today, this show would have eight to nine times more people watching. The news could be exactly the same. Everything could be exactly the same. We saw, I think it was Ben Cowan, he posted something or told us that there was only 500. I don't want to misquote it, some absurd number. It was like 500,000 views on all crypto channels combined on YouTube in like a month or a week. It must have been a week. But that which used to be just like millions and millions and millions. We can tell you anecdotally, we see it in the data. Not only do less people show up, but the algorithm does not feed crypto related content to people anymore because they're obviously not going to engage with it. I mean, let's be fair. Like grandma in Nebraska is watching a Mr. Beast video. I don't know if grandma Nebraska watched that, but she's not going to watch a crypto video if it pops up in her feed. But she may have a year ago, right?

B (27:22)

So, so here's where I would say, like, my background in media actually, like is important in this regard to this partnership. If you understand how the algorithms work. Right. By having Moonpay in the title sponsorship, I'll always get scraped off of the organic search and the algos as it relates to X Games content and extreme sports not just crypto. Right. And so, like, these are small, subtle things, but, like, you do have to think about as you're building out a brand. Right. And as we are looking at Moonpay moving from sort of the crypto ecosystem where it's very well known, to a more mainstream ecosystem where it may not be as well known, like, these are small things, but important things that you have to think about as you grow the brand.

A (28:06)

Yeah. So to be clear, you'll never, at least for the next three years, you'll never just hear X Games again. It'll be Moonpay X Games.

B (28:12)

It's the Moonpay X Games. 100%.

A (28:15)

Yeah. That's epic. You know, even. Even with the F1 comparison, you don't have the American Express F Formula One. Right. And you certainly don't have, like, the McDonald's NFL, although you should. You obviously.

B (28:30)

Exactly right. And, you know, like, I just, I didn't see another opportunity out there that that would afford us, like, that type of level of exposure. And with a audience that I think is so beautifully organic. I've never. First on a personal level, I was so pumped just being there. It was so much fun. I would. I would. From going back to the media world, like I gave the example of the X Games is very much like the American Girl Doll franchise. And I don't know if you know, the business model of the American Girl Doll franchise, but the American Girl Doll franchise essentially targets women roughly our age, Scott. Because, like, they came out at that time and they had it and they're now moms. Right. And it also targets the next generation. Right. And so when you think about the next generation and you think about media consumption today, right? Like, media consumption is actually a very easy thing when you break it down. It's just people skim content, they dip into content, or they do a deep dive into content. And content is either informative, insightful, or entertaining. So it's just a nine box. The X Games hits all of those things, right? Especially in the entertainment front. But, like, the content is made for social distribution, right? So, like, it will hit that next generation who just wants to see the clip of the extreme moment. If you want to go into one event, it could dip into that event. Or if you want to watch the whole thing, you could do a deep dive into the whole thing. Right. And so it hits different generations based on consumption patterns. And, like, you could then build narratives off the athletes, you could build narratives off the leagues. And so it dips outside of just pure entertainment into informative information and insights.

A (30:17)

I feel like Moonpay Melker Metal morning show.

B (30:21)

That's an amazing alliteration. I really. It's, it's an amazing alliteration. I like this.

A (30:27)

I'm just saying like if you need four M's altogether we can get McDonald's in there if you want. I don't think we need them but, but I think we could by the way like American Girl dolls. I was so annoyed when we were buying bought one for my daughter years ago and, but then I found out about Labubus and I would kill for American Girl dolls to come back because the boo boos spending money on those is the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life.

B (30:53)

I, I hear you infinitely. You know like the one thing I have a 12 year old daughter. The one thing I will say for any, any person listening to the show that has kids roughly in that age range, as a parent you spend an insane amount of money only for one day to wake up and to find out that like their consumption pattern has changed 180 degrees and like everything is a sunk cost lost investment. Right now with Labubus, I don't get this one at all because I think that they are just ugly. The American Girl dolls are fascinating because like they land you on the doll and then they expand you on like all the accessories.

A (31:36)

She's got to be a gymnast. She doesn't even have a scooter, have a haircut.

B (31:41)

She needs to get her nails done. She needs to get her ears p. Right. Like it's, it's, it's one of the most fascinating franchises. Right. And I will say that a lot of the conversations I've had with Jeremy, the CEO of X Games has been like I, I see X Games very much as like American Girl doll franchise which is it'll hit the people like you and I who grew up with it and then it will hit the new generation very well. And, and I, I can't wait to think about all of the ways in which we could bring in the ecosystem and expand.

A (32:14)

When your kid is obsessed with a food when they're young, the day that you go to like Costco and buy that food in mouse they mass, they tell you it's disgusting and never eat it again.

B (32:22)

It's the wild on it.

A (32:24)

Right.

B (32:24)

By the way like if any of these, if any of these places like Robux, Roblox like actually moved over to digital currencies like they would make a killing off of parents who would after the kid turns off to the experience could go in and resell all of the digital assets that the kids sort of accumulated. Like, I would. I would be in there, like, reselling just to try and recoup every dollar lost on, like, this crazy sort of passion thing that. That my kid had for, you know, six months.

A (32:57)

I mean, I guess I can't. We had troll dolls, right? So I can't. I can't. No pun intended. Troll them that hard. We had a lot of stupid toys, I guess, too. Although all I really remember is shooting GI Joe guys with rubber bands. Dude, I've kept you over time. I'm really sorry. Keith has to go. He has to go.

B (33:15)

Really?

A (33:16)

All the crypto stuff, we talked about troll dolls, the Boo Boos, and the X Games, but I had a lot more fun doing it than I have talking about the Clarity Act.

B (33:24)

Thank you for having me, Scott. It's always a pleasure. You know, I'm a huge fan of you and everything you do for the ecosystem, so thank you, thank you, thank you.

A (33:30)

And same to you. And Keith, we're going to have to get you back on more properly with more time to dig deeper into the rest of these conversations.

B (33:37)

Awesome.

A (33:38)

All right, everybody, give Keith a follow. Check out the Moonpay X Games and Moonpay in general, and we will see you tomorrow. Later, guys.

B (33:45)

Bye. Let's do. Let's dope.