Podcast Summary
The Wolf Of All Streets
Host: Scott Melker
Guest: Mark Moss
Episode Title: “Nobody Understands What’s About To Happen To Bitcoin”
Date: November 9, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode dives deep into a seismic shift underway in global finance, driven by the rise of Bitcoin treasury companies and digital credit. Scott Melker and Mark Moss discuss how Bitcoin isn’t entering just another cycle but is now the foundational asset for a new financial system—one that could disrupt everything from fixed income to insurance and how corporations manage their capital. They examine Michael Saylor’s influence in this movement, the coming wave of thousands of Bitcoin-based entities, and why Wall Street is only starting to wake up.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Emergence of a New Financial System (00:00–02:32)
- Bitcoin as Ultimate Hedge: Wall Street titans (JP Morgan, Ken Griffin, Paul Tudor Jones) now publicly call Bitcoin the best hedge against dollar debasement.
- Beyond Hype – A Systemic Transformation: Mark Moss argues this is just the tip of the iceberg; Bitcoin is becoming the base layer for new types of financial companies—treasury companies, new forms of credit, and insurance products. This will rewrite concepts of yield, debt, and money itself.
Quote:
“What’s really happening is the birth of an entirely new financial system... One built on Bitcoin treasury companies and digital credit where yield, debt and money itself get rewritten on chain.” – Scott Melker (00:03)
2. Lessons from Past Technological Shifts (02:32–05:31)
- Tech Parallels: Mark draws parallels to the dotcom and e-commerce waves, underlining that transformative technologies are widely dismissed before eventually changing everything.
- Long-Term Conviction Is Key: Most people miss the underlying shifts and only see the speculative waves, which causes them to underestimate the true scale of transformation underway.
Quote:
“Almost nobody has any real idea of what’s actually going on. And it is going to be so much bigger than most people can even think and fathom.” – Mark Moss (03:21)
3. Bitcoin Treasury Companies: The Revolution Explained (05:31–11:24)
- Vision vs. Skepticism: Mark and Scott discuss skepticism in the space, leverage, and why most people underestimate the shift from holding cash to holding Bitcoin on corporate balance sheets.
- Digital Capital: The analogy of “digital capital” (Michael Saylor’s term) is explained—Bitcoin as a form of corporate treasury, analogous to what digital X-rays were to medical imaging.
4. Digital Credit—A New Model for Fixed Income (11:24–17:57)
- How It Works: Traditional fixed-income markets rely on future cash flows. Bitcoin treasury models, by contrast, are asset-backed—companies have enough Bitcoin to pay out obligations for 100 years, even with no further revenue.
- Yield, Risk, and Taxation: Instruments like MicroStrategy’s “Stretch” product offer high, tax-advantaged yields (10.5–20%), entirely asset-backed and not cash flow-dependent.
- Massive Market Opportunity: The $300 trillion global fixed income market (bonds, annuities, etc.) is ripe for disruption.
Quote:
“With Stretch... they're not paying you off of cash flow, future cash flows; it takes the risk away... They have over 100 years of capital to pay you right now...” – Mark Moss (12:07)
5. Why Thousands of Bitcoin Treasury Companies Will Emerge (17:58–24:45)
- Product Specialization: Not everyone needs the same duration, instrument, or risk profile. The financial world has thousands of ETFs and bonds; Bitcoin-based instruments will follow suit.
- Market Segmentation: Different jurisdictions, currencies, and regulatory environments will lead to countless variations (e.g., Meta Planet as a “proxy” for Bitcoin in Japan).
Quote:
“You could easily get to thousands... Equities and bonds, then all the different durations of bonds, all the different risk return profiles, then the different types of companies, insurance companies, etc.” – Mark Moss (25:06)
6. Understanding Volatility, Pure-Play vs. Conglomerate Models (24:45–32:22)
- Investor Mindsets: True value comes from long-term holding, not trading short-term volatility. Bitcoin as a treasury asset aligns with a 10-year investor horizon, contrasting with the short-termism common in public markets.
- Pure-Play Proxies: Companies that are directly tied to Bitcoin price (“pure play” stocks) will fare differently from conglomerates with underlying businesses.
Quote:
“Bitcoin is four years. We should look at these companies over 10 years... If you look at real investors like Warren Buffett... they didn't become the richest people in the world because they traded stocks. They owned the companies and just never sold.” – Mark Moss (31:36)
7. Cycle Theory: Beyond the Four-Year Bitcoin Halving (36:33–41:47)
- Liquidity Cycles vs. Halvings: Mark argues global liquidity cycles, not strictly the Halving, have driven Bitcoin’s price history. The refinancing schedule of global debt coincidentally matches the four-year cycle.
- Macro Environment Has Changed: The current acceleration in AI, industrial policy, and global liquidity shifts make this era unique. Political and macro events are shaping new demand curves.
8. Wall Street’s Shift to the Debasement Trade (41:01–43:13)
- Gradually, Then Suddenly: Institutional adoption has moved from ridicule to acceptance. Financial giants now recommend Bitcoin alongside gold and silver.
Quote:
“Bitcoiners have been screaming about the debasement trade since the beginning… Now it’s Ken Griffin and Paul Tudor Jones and JP Morgan... Every single one of them included bitcoin in the thing you should buy.” – Scott Melker (41:01)
9. Operational Questions for Treasury Companies (43:13–51:48)
- When to Buy? Dollar-Cost Averaging vs. Lump Sum: Mark advises individuals and treasuries to allocate based on long-term conviction, not market timing—emphasizing probabilities and allocation discretion.
- Sustainability & Future Capital: Investors need to evaluate a treasury company’s ability to raise additional capital, not just its initial “Bitcoin yield.”
10. Valuation – NAV, Premiums, and Long-Term Perspective (51:48–53:58)
- On Book Value: Mark notes NAV is important but incomplete; companies must grow, create value, and attract future investment.
- Not Just Beating Bitcoin: Only Bitcoin maximalists treat Bitcoin as a “hurdle rate.” Most institutions just seek to beat inflation and the S&P 500.
11. Infinite Upside & The Unit of Account (54:43–58:21)
- Infinite Potential: Mark argues for theoretically infinite upside for Bitcoin—because as global wealth grows and the supply stays fixed, each Bitcoin grows in purchasing power.
- Toward a Bitcoin Standard: He projects Bitcoin will become the global unit of account after 2050, ending monetary dilution.
Quote:
“I do believe it’s infinite... If bitcoin becomes the unit of account, now one bitcoin equals 1/21 millionth of all the wealth of the world... I never get diluted, which is why it goes up infinitely.” – Mark Moss (54:51)
12. Will a $1 Million Bitcoin Mean $500 Cheeseburgers? (58:27–60:40)
- Not Necessarily Hyperinflation: If Bitcoin soaks up liquidity, it may absorb upward price pressure without triggering runaway inflation in consumer prices.
- The Trump Factor: The Trump administration and prominent financiers seem to support policies that accelerate Bitcoin and gold as “liquidity sponges” for broad fiscal expansion.
13. The Strategic Accumulation by Power Players (60:40–62:24)
- Insider Positioning: The Trump family, Howard Lutnick, and other financial insiders now seemingly have more wealth tied to crypto than to real estate, a marked generational shift.
- Take Note: When the most connected are moving this aggressively to Bitcoin, others should pay attention.
Quote:
“When you look at the people at the highest level that know what’s going on, not just with building wealth, but in the government, and they’re placing their bets this way... we should be paying attention.” – Mark Moss (61:52)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Mark Moss (03:21): “Almost nobody has any real idea of what’s actually going on. And it is going to be so much bigger than most people can even think and fathom.”
- Mark Moss (12:07): “With Stretch... they're not paying you off of cash flow, future cash flows; it takes the risk away... They have over 100 years of capital to pay you right now...”
- Mark Moss (31:36): “Bitcoin is four years. We should look at these companies over 10 years... If you look at real investors like Warren Buffett... they didn't become the richest people in the world because they traded stocks. They owned the companies and just never sold.”
- Scott Melker (41:01): “Bitcoiners have been screaming about the debasement trade since the beginning… Now it’s Ken Griffin and Paul Tudor Jones and JP Morgan... Every single one of them included bitcoin in the thing you should buy.”
- Mark Moss (54:51): “I do believe it’s infinite... If bitcoin becomes the unit of account, now one bitcoin equals 1/21 millionth of all the wealth of the world... I never get diluted, which is why it goes up infinitely.”
- Mark Moss (61:52): “When you look at the people at the highest level that know what’s going on... they're placing their bets this way... we should be paying attention.”
Important Timestamps
- 00:00 – Introduction to Wall Street’s new view on Bitcoin as a hedge
- 02:32 – Birth of treasury companies after treacherous speculation
- 11:24 – The mechanics of digital credit and fixed income on Bitcoin
- 16:31 – Collateralization and tax benefits of stretch products
- 24:45 – Why “one product to rule them all” is wrong – we’ll see thousands
- 36:33 – Four-year cycles: Halvings or liquidity-driven?
- 41:01 – Wall Street’s public pivot to “the debasement trade”
- 54:51 – Mark Moss explains “infinite upside” and the coming Bitcoin standard
- 58:27 – How $1 million Bitcoin doesn’t have to mean $500 cheeseburgers
- 61:34 – Strategic Bitcoin accumulation by the elite
Conclusion
Mark Moss and Scott Melker deliver a compelling, conviction-fueled conversation about how Bitcoin is not just entering a bull market but anchoring a new era in financial architecture—one that will be populated by thousands of new Bitcoin treasury companies, radically new fixed income products, and a total rewriting of what “money” is. This episode is essential listening for anyone wanting to understand where the architecture of the next financial epoch is being built and why the biggest players are quietly but forcefully moving their chips onto the Bitcoin table.