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- [03:06]
A
Foreign.
- [03:17]
B
Okay, good morning everyone and Happy Friday. First, before I talk for any length of time, can anyone hear me? So a quick thumbs up will help. I don't see anything. So I said okay, good, cool. So before we talk about the topic of boredom and markets and bottoms and stuff that Scott actually covered pretty well in his his rant this morning, I want to rant a bit about the cold card hack because I have been basically. And Jamie, you've witnessed this a few times. I have taken a lot of shit over the last six months, a lot of shit for defending that. Most people will want to use intermediaries, particularly those that give them insurance to hold their assets. Now those intermediaries could either be BlackRock with IBIT or Bitwise with their ETFs or Fidelity or now you know, we have Robinhood and Charles Schwab joining coinbase and Kraken, etc. But you know, all of these people as well as strategy, which is another way to, you know, effectively own bitcoin exposure without taking, you know, direct self custody. And I've been told that not your keys, not your coins, yada yada, yada, yada. Now all I will say is this. There is literally zero chance. Zero. So let's make this clear. Zero chance that the population at large, the normal people are going to look at what happened this morning with seed phrases, non random seed phrases generated by their supposedly safe hardware wallet and not be paranoid for years. And this is exactly the point about the UX UI of Bitcoin. The asset itself has been pristine. The way the network has adapted to all the problems that have been thrown itself over the years, whether it's the China ban or now the AI. You know, now you know, the AI conversions from data centers, everything that bitcoin does in terms of churning out blocks and working has been perfect. But the adoption by use of trusted intermediaries has to be part of gaining mass adoption. This is the hill that I'll die on. This is the hill that bitcoin frankly will either live or die on. And I am so freaking tired of listening to bitcoin Maxis, because karma is a. And when these things happen, nobody is going to ignore it. I mean, I'm not talking about people that are listening to the space. I'm talking about your wives, I'm talking about your mothers. I'm talking about the people who go who think today think Bitcoin and dogecoin are the same thing. These are the people that need to be won over. And I just find this, I mean, it's troubling, it's annoying and by the way, it's incredibly sad. There are a lot of people who lost money, who did everything right according to all the experts they listen to. And that's a real problem. I mean, you know, I'll ping you Jamie, because you're up here. I don't see anybody else on the, you know, I don't see, you know, we got to get Tony and Paul up as speakers and Ryan, etc. But I mean, am I missing something? Do you think there's even the slightest chance that this isn't going to be seized upon by skeptics as quote proof that there's a problem with Bitcoin that's inherent which you know. And do you think that there's even a slight chance that, that normal mainstream media isn't going to blow this up and make people afraid?
- [06:37]
A
No, I, I agree 100 with you, Dave. You know I was listening to the spaces last night and you know, it was very sad to hear some like one on one experiences of people who were, who have lost their life savings of whatever amount they had of value in there. Right. Thinking they were doing it respons. But you know, to your point, and we've heard this through the bit 110 discussions and now through this self custody a lot of people who are tradfi or questioning whether or not this self custody cold wallet conversation is really a viable option. I think institutions are going to seize this as an opportunity. I think there's going to be a lot of discussions going on from here, education wise. But I think the one thing if you wanted to attack Bitcoin about the narrative is self custody. And so this thing's going to open up a big door that I think needs to be discussed and talked about.
- [07:40]
B
Yeah, I mean I'm not that negative on Bitcoin, the asset in terms of the number and its use. I'm negative on the notion that people who don't, who aren't sophisticated that the UI UX is where it's supposed to be. And you know, when you have a wallet, I mean it's like for example, would anybody have trusted a bank when the bank robbers could go in and take your money? Right. In the West, I mean it was really hard to get people to use banks until they had men with guns and they did this and etc. And then eventually we ended up with FDIC insurance. Now the FTIC insurance was needed because it runs on the bank which was different. But the fact is people to trust something, you have to be able to prove it. In a world where we have proof, you know, it would be. It's one thing, right? You know, you need to be able to have independent pen tests on everything that you do, a penetration test for those. Whatever. And frankly, we're not there yet. You know, it's like, look, I understand, you know, I didn't use cold cards, so, you know, whatever. But that's not because I was smart. That's because I picked what I was going to pick, and I. I've been using it for a while and I don't touch it. But, you know, the point here isn't that bitcoin wallets are unsafe, because generally they are. And even in this particular case, it's, you know, it was a bug and people figuring it out, and it wasn't total and it wasn't immediate. Part of the problem, of course, was that there were some unscrupulous people who effectively defended their own technology, much to people's chagrin. So that's a different story. But my point is, is that every time we get these sorts, I'll call them narrative attacks, because while real, it's completely defendable. And it doesn't change the overall narrative particularly, but it does create issues. Now, do I think this is going to plunge us into a new bottom? No, I actually don't. But I do think that those who. People have to understand in the bitcoin community that bitcoin needs to have the same safety attached to it that any other professional asset has attached to it. That's really the issue here. Tony, hi.
- [09:53]
C
Hey, Dave.
- [09:54]
D
How you doing?
- [09:54]
E
Agree with you 100%, as well as what Jamie said. I've been talking a lot about it on the podcast over the years. It's unreasonable to expect mom and pop and the average Joe and Jane to manage seed phrases. They're going to go, especially with the tradfi firms offering ETFs, they're going to go that direction. It's going to be much easier for them. And look, I've even told people of a older age who are like, hey, I want to get exposure to Bitcoin, and things along those lines. I'm like, do you have an investment account with BlackRock or Fidelity? They now offer it. And they were like, yeah, I do. And they're like, I'll just do that. Because they don't want to handle the complexity because there's a lot of friction to be able to set up seed phrase wallets. And then you have to worry about where do you put those seed phrases? And even if you have a hardware device, where do you put that device? It's just so complicated. And to your point, Dave, we're not there yet. Maybe the UX will improve and then you'll get more people in the mainstream to go that direction. But right now, if I'm BlackRock, Fidelity and these Trad 5 folks, I'm smiling because my product, where I have built a brand and trust, can solve this. And I'm sure they're going to use it as a marketing tool.
- [11:07]
B
I'm sure they will. I mean, it's not just them. I mean, you know, it's like we talk about all. It's one of the reasons that, that I get so I'm so angry at the stupidity I'm seeing on the Clarity Act. I mean, there are people out there on the Clarity act making just absolutely dumbass statements, you know, mostly the Democrats. And, and look, I don't care. I mean, I wish it was this. There's no reason this should be even partisan. They've made it partisan because Trump's family made a lot of money on crypto. But you know, they make comments like, well, you know, we don't want to normalize this, but one of the things, and Senator Lummis has said this, that is a very big deal and this kind of points this out is that only until we change the laws, exchanges cannot, cannot protect customer assets as if they are, you know, in the, for, in the event of a bankruptcy of said exchange. So that of course is massively helpful to monster firms with trillions in aum and massive balance sheets because their likelihood of a bankruptcy is really small. And so that's why people might trust it. But it doesn't have to be that. I mean, places like, you know, Coinbase, which use professional custody etc and others, you know, I think you're pretty safe. But if something really bad happened, you don't have the same luxury that you have if you put your money in, you know, whatever Charles Schwab or, you know, with equities, because they're, they're at their site, assets are segregated. And so that's the other big point anyway, Paul.
- [12:35]
C
Yeah, and a lot of people were mentioning how, yeah, it's hard to manage seed phrases. Where do I put a seed phrase and whatnot. And that's kind of the issue with self custody. Realize I think this specific exploit, I just want to get really precise. This specific exploit is not specific to self custody. It happened to be specific to a specific hardware Wallet. But random number generation is needed across the board in order to support and to store Bitcoin and all the other cryptos. Like, I'm not a bitcoin maxi like you. I'm a, I'm much closer to a self custody maxi. I think that self custody does have to become a lot easier, much more mature where these kind of exploits go away. Because especially in this day and age of AI, we can look for these exploits pretty quickly and make sure they're not in the code. So whether or not we had access to the AI to be able to look for these exploits is kind of the, one of the open questions because so much of it is guardrailed. But you know, realize that yes, even custodial services, you know, maybe there's institutional grade that, you know, is less likely to have this issue, this issue. But even custodial services could have the same issue. They could be using hardware walls that have the exploit.
- [13:42]
B
That's true.
- [13:43]
C
Want to throw, like, I don't want to throw this right at self custody and throw self custody under the bus.
- [13:48]
B
Be very clear though. But here's, here's the difference, Paul. So I've spent most, a lot of, a lot of people, listeners know, I spent way too, way too much time because I'm way older than I want to admit to at this point, you know, working between, you know, almost a decade at Morgan Stanley, more than a decade at Solomon Brothers through Citigroup, and then at Two Sigma, which became a massive size institution by the time I was done. In all the cases, there is no way that a system as important as custodial seed phrase generation before it got deployed into production would ever, ever get deployed without multiple penetration tests and all sorts of things. And random hardware wallet providers just don't have that discipline because the discipline comes from having your job and all the people working around you, your job and all the money being part of, just gets that level of attention. That is unbelievable. And, and, and, and plus they, they insure it and they have the balance sheet to handle it. So it's not about the. My point is here. I mean, look, random number generation is tricky and any, anyone who's ever programmed understands that. But my point is, is this.
- [15:01]
C
There's actually no pen test for random number generation. Just so you know. No, you cannot pen test it. Well, you said you pen test it. You said you pen test it.
- [15:10]
B
Well, you can.
- [15:11]
C
No, you generate a random number, you don't know whether or not it's random.
- [15:14]
B
That's right.
- [15:15]
C
So you can't pen test it. You have to code review, test it. That's really all you can do.
- [15:18]
B
You can. But the point is, the point that I'm trying to make is that custody, the reason banks existed in the first place, there are two, no one stored stuff in their mattresses because they don't want men's, with men with guns coming into, you know, into their houses. Right. You know, and that's still an issue with, with self custody by the way. People used banks because for a large part because it was easier to defend wealth in a vault with men with, with their own guns, you know, from all the other depositors paying for it, for the process. You know. Now I'm not saying we live in the wild west, but honestly with AI and the Internet, I'd say that in terms of security we sort of are. Right? I mean, and so, you know, it's, it's, it's harder. That doesn't mean it's impossible. I agree with you. I think that this solution, this technology, this will be solved and it is better today than it used to be. I mean, hell, I mean there was, I don't know if people remember when, I'm not going to name the manufacturer, but one of the manufacturers had a very clever hack was they put, they, they, someone sold hardware wallets under a brand name and made it look like the brand name via actually was on Amazon that where they knew the seed frame. And so, you know, so it basically people got stuff stolen because they bought it, you know, from the wrong, you know, from the wrong seller. Right now I don't know that that's happening. It's been policed already. I mean although I would tell people, never buy if you're going to buy Ledger, buy from Ledger, if you're going to buy Trezor, buy from Trezor, etc. But there's all sorts of these vectors. The problem is, is every single time anyone ever sends Bitcoin, there's always that little bit of fear that it's not going to get where it's going to go because maybe you typed something wrong, you did something wrong, this adds to that. And people have long memories, right? Paul actually have very short memories.
- [17:14]
C
I would say they do, because if anything, all of the exploits that have occurred in the past and the cause of those exploits have been long forgotten and people then do the exact same thing, which is storing and using centralized services which have been exploited over and over. And most of the people that enter the space every cycle have no clue about those exploits from about Four years ago. They have no recollection. They don't know about ftx, they don't know about, you know, like oh hell, Mount Gox is like decades ago. That's an entire lifetime ago. No, the, the new generation of people that come into crypto every cycle have no, not just no memory, it just didn't even, it's never crossed their path.
- [17:51]
B
So I'm not for sure I agree with that.
- [17:52]
C
And so it hasn't done well. This is something you can't do, a double blind, placebo controlled study on whether or not people actually remember or don't remember. But let's face it, we encounter a lot of new users, a lot of old users, a lot of new, but they overlap. But they don't look up. They overlap that era, but they may have never done that research to find out. Oh yeah, these are a lot of exploits that did happen. So I don't know that people have that long term of memory. Humans are notorious for having very short term memory. Like we don't read history. Right? We don't. Not enough people like you do. You're great about this. Right? But most people don't. And so we don't learn from the mistakes of the past.
- [18:35]
B
Yeah, I mean generally speaking that's true. But now it's kind of an interesting, it's a really interesting point you make. Look, the reason we have cycles, and I'm not talking about four year cycles, the reason we have people, the reason we had a hedge fund blow up last week was because this supposedly brilliant genius did exactly the same thing that pretty much every hedge fund that's blown up throughout history has done, I. E. Pyramid up and increase their leverage as assets were going higher, increasing their risk, thinking that they were, you know, and not understanding what can happen when liquidity gets sucked out of the market. Right. I mean we saw that happening and people were. Before we found out that there was a big $20 billion hedge fund, we were seeing these stories coming out of Korea of people losing all their life savings. And yet I did this experiment. This was funny actually. I was talking to someone who's in the market who considers themselves a trader. And I said, do you realize that? And this was a couple days ago. I said, but it's still true. I said, you realize that the Korean market over the last 12 months is at way outperformed NASDAQ even after all this. He said, how could that be? Everyone's gone bankrupt. And then he went back and looked and saw that even after all the falls, it was up 80% in 12 months. And NASDAQ was up like 20 or a little bit less. It was like two days ago. And that's the point. So you look at all these people losing money because as you say, they forget. And it happens all the time. And that's why, you know, when markets start going up, they go parabolic. Why? Because people are taking even more and more leverage. And then of course, when they unpar and they go do the backside of the parabolic move but are still up, they're done. That's why, you know, we, we always talk about them in Bitcoin. It's like, don't use leverage for, as a holding for something that is such a high volatility asset. I mean, the same is true with SanDisk, you know, with, with any of these things that, that are, are highly volatile. And so we've had that in the last two weeks also. But there you have the example that proves your point, which is people don't remember, they make the same mistake again. Right?
- [20:40]
C
Nope, I hear you. Exactly. So where do we go from here? Interesting question.
- [20:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, look, I think this too shall pass. I think that, you know, it's, it's, it's another black eye. I'll be curious to see what the idiots, you know, what the idiots in Congress say about this. And, and I say this because someone's going to make the statement. You can take it to the bank. You're going to get someone who's against clarity and against cryptos. They say, look, people lost all their money. And of course, ignoring the fact that if you have a Clarity act, then firms would be able to guarantee and segregate customer assets, which they can't do today. You know, Elizabeth Warren cell phone. But no one's going to point it out. It's going to drive me crazy.
- [21:24]
E
You know, Elizabeth Warren and her team are already putting together their strategy around this.
- [21:29]
B
I'm sure they are. And they're, they're, they're literally the, it is exact proof of why they're wrong. Right, but they're going to try to spin it because of course they do. And there's a lot of ignorant people out there. And it just, as I said, it annoys me that people could be so ignorant and listen to, you know, evil and there's no other word for it. You know, you can't spin it any other way, but so be it. Anyway, I'm going to try to control myself now because I got myself worked up this morning. Jamie, I see your hand up.
- [21:57]
A
Yeah. Just to follow up, I think the conversation is interesting. Paul makes some good points. I mean, I think overall there's a portion of value that's beneficial to have outside the financial rails. At the same time, there's also a portion of value that's beneficial to access within institutions. You know, I mean, I, where this goes from here is I hope that the maxi views on either side are, you know, a little bit more nuanced and understanding that, that all of these retirement goals that, that are very unique depending on what your needs are, your region, your age, and the conversation gets back to allocation sizes and diversification is not, you know, a bad thing and risk management and whatnot, because all of us have different ideas of what we want our life to be and there's not one fits all size for how you do it. So that's where I hope the discussions go from here. And I'm certainly going to try to foster those in the spaces and the conversations that we have.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. I mean, I think that look, and we're very myopic here. I'm sitting here in northern southern New Jersey, right. You know, and you know, we sit in the United States and we have access. We're, we're banked. You know, I have bank accounts, I have brokerage accounts. I can do that. I have stuff spread over lots of different things. But I do have some Bitcoin and self custody. I always have. And honestly, I think a lot of people are like that. They diversify. You know, they don't want to trust a counterparty risk because. And in Bitcoin you have to, even with ibit, you have counterparty risk to some degree. It's probably less or with bitwiser fidelity as ETFs. But you know, the truth is that, you know, I'm seeing all these, these points that, you know, I bid is better than cold storage. Well, understand with any etf, two things are true. You are paying a fee. It's a small fee, but you're paying a fee. So you're paying a fee for that security. And the other thing is you're inside the financial system. Meaning that if the government decides to, you know, ban Bitcoin the way they ban gold, now I personally think that's highly, highly unlikely. But if they do, then you have a problem. Now that's in the U.S. if you're outside the U.S. there are many jurisdictions where having money outside of the system has enormous value. Enormous value. And understanding that value is something that it's Very hard for someone sitting in the comfort and safety of the United States to understand. But you know, you talk to Venezuelans, right. And I have, right. You know, friends who, you know, will tell you that they want that there's a certain amount of money outside the system. Hell, talk to Italians. There's a reason cash is used so much in Italy. Right. You know, and so there are a lot of jurisdictions all throughout the world where that value that sovereignty. The difficulty, I'll call it censorship resistant, not censorship proof has value to people. And so that's not going to go away either. So there's going to be those needs. Right. And it's really important to keep in mind that it's both. And I always like to mention Bitcoin the asset versus Bitcoin the technology. Bitcoin the asset. This doesn't really have a huge effect on if anything, it just changes the modality of how people will use it. Bitcoin the technology, I think all of these things, every time they happen ends up with major improvements in the way that people can handle it because people are smart and they figure out better ways to do it it. Right. And that, that's been the history. I mean, I assume you agree with that, Paul.
- [25:42]
C
Yes and no. I don't think I separate Bitcoin the asset from Bitcoin the technology because without the technology that asset is meaningless and has no novel impact on the financial system.
- [25:53]
D
Right.
- [25:53]
C
We could have always made a 21 million, you know, coin with a central server that's held by a coinbase and whatnot. And that wouldn't be interesting. It's the fact that it can be sent autonomously, censorship resistant by somebody that makes the asset interesting. So the two are one to me.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, Let me phrase it differently because I 100% agree with what you just said. Bitcoin the asset versus the specific technologies that people use to interface with the technology of Bitcoin. In other words, bitcoin itself is a technology. Cold card, ledger, trezor or any of the various things that are built lightning are all technologies that are built up around it.
- [26:36]
C
For sure, yes, you're going to need some kind of technology to interface with Bitcoin, but that's pretty much true of any dollars or fiat, any financial instrument. Right now no one's really handing gold across each other for some type of, well, not nobody. I hang around with enough anarchists and libertarians where yes, people are act physically moving gold between each other. But you're right, you're going to need some kind of technology but is the technology to interface with it something that's different from necessarily the asset? I mean Bitcoin is the first asset where it has its own built in technology to transfer it. Like we've never had this before, right? The asset, the value of the asset, the units of the asset have always been separate from the technology to transfer it in gold and shells. The technology to transfer it's lower your hands and the air between you and the person you hand it to. And then we put wrappers around it and every single wrapper around it has always been custodial. And so that ability to transfer built into it. Absolutely, built into the asset and you cannot separate those two is the unique value proposition of Bitcoin. And if you lose that or you minimize that and you bring that utility closer and closer to zero, then the value of the asset itself also starts to be lost. Because that's why anyone got excited about it in the first place. Why should we be excited about Bitcoin if it didn't, if it doesn't have that ability and if it's not being used.
- [28:03]
B
Yeah, I agree, I'm not phrasing what my thesis well, because I don't. I effectively agree with everything you just said. I mean one of the points that I've made constantly and look, I was in the SEC's office in 2018 making this point, right? Which is that the problem with securities laws as it applies to crypto assets, including bitcoin and by the way, back in 2018, everyone in the SEC saw it was an electronic market. They said, well our job is to regulate electronic markets. And I kind of had to point out to them, well yeah, except for all your regulations make assumptions about the way those assets worked. And the point that it's a bearer asset with its own technology for being able to do transfers is meant that their entire infrastructure of rules were non applicable thing that well, you have to have a transfer agent. Well no you don't. You know, literally in the code you don't yet the SEC rules said you have to have that. So what do you do? You know, what's a certified custodian? You know, it's like there are lots of different reasons and, and we went through a bunch of them and people have talked about them for years since then. But you're right. I mean, you're absolutely right. It's just that the fact that you, the way I always try to phrase it to people is Bitcoin has its technology that you can gives the user of it optionality to keep it to themselves in self custody and stay outside of the system and be able to transfer to anyone, anywhere in the world whenever they want. That's optionality. Those who don't need that or want to do that don't have to. They can, they can delegate, you know, their custodianship to somebody else that's professional for a fee to keep them sleeping better at night so they don't have to worry about their own, their own security, hygiene and, and this.
- [29:49]
C
At what point, at what point do you think though that as more people opt onto the easier, you know, custodial option.
- [29:58]
B
Right.
- [29:59]
C
Optionality is a keyword that you said. What's the cutoff? Where you know, 90%, 95%, 99%. What percentage people that opt into that option of custodial service thereby makes the people that wanted to opt in for self custody effectively lose that advantage because then you can't transact with anybody.
- [30:22]
B
I think it's impossible.
- [30:23]
C
It's sort of like it's impossible.
- [30:26]
B
Example. Paul, here, here's, here's my example. Cash. So five years ago, and if you go to England even today it's almost impossible to use cash. Right. Five years ago people were ever used credit cards and then you got, and then a funny thing happened. As Venmo and Zell and stuff got easier, more and more people started using that. And guess what you found? You start seeing a resurgence. And now I'm finding my use of cash has probably gone back to the levels that it was in the 90s over the last year or so because there are so many merchants who, and so many people who are doing business that want to use cash, they're effectively saying now is it an opt out? No, because cash is still part of it. You still have to go to your bank and say please, please, can I withdraw my own money from my bank. And there are all sorts of horror stories about that, but for the most part for small money you can do it. I don't think there's even the slightest chance that Bitcoin custodians will, you know, exchanges, et cetera, will stop you from being able to withdraw Bitcoin. I think that the biggest self limiting factor with ibit and the ETFs is you can't. I do think that, I mean, yeah,
- [31:37]
C
the ETFs, you can't, you can't.
- [31:39]
B
But you can on Coinbase or Kraken or schwab or robinhood, etc.
- [31:44]
C
Well, A. Are you part of a smaller bubble of, you know, you've admitted that Even though you're such a trad, you look like a tradfi guy, but, you know, you've still got that libertarian principle inside. And maybe that's your small bubble of people as well that want to transact in cash, but as well. Remember, cash predated all of the digital payment methods like credit cards. And so it had at least an infrastructure that was already built out. Bitcoin and crypto didn't. And so it's trying to build it out, it's trying to build it out, but now it's hitting this headwall of, well, people are opting into the custodial services because they're being recommended by podcasts like this saying, oh, well, you know, you're, it's safer, it's easier, don't even try, don't even bother. Well, I don't think self custody, there's multiple stuff.
- [32:30]
B
And I think that markets are always people, humans, we all like to think in terms of step functions and binaries. We think in terms of as it being either or. And it isn't an either or. There's a spectrum. There will be people who want to use cash. You will find poker games. And, and I, and I apologize, I haven't played any of the, any of the bitcoin poker games yet. But there are people who say, oh, I can move sats back and forth because that's better, right? You know, and, and that's fine, right? You know, there could be people who want to use Bitcoin. It is because it makes sense for a lot of reasons, except for the problem that bitcoin has for being used, and it's a simple one, is most of the people who own it believe it's 95% plus undervalued. So why the hell would you spend it? Particularly if you worry about that, if it is on the books and you worry about the tax implications. So I think that's still a bigger blockage to using Bitcoin than any of this. I do think, however, that insured intermediaries for custody is at least for your main account. I mean, it's like, let's say, whatever percentage of your wealth. Very few people keep a large percentage of their wealth in cash, but lots of people use it. So they do, and they use a trusted intermediary to hold it. I would not be remotely surprised to see that become the dominant model in Bitcoin as things move on. Unless the UI UX and the security of using it yourself becomes as, as good as the way we use iPhones for credit cards, etc. Etc. But it will get better, right? Yep, fair enough. That's that sort of a thought.
- [34:04]
C
It will get better. That's. I think that's our focus. So let's move the industry forward into that.
- [34:10]
B
Agreed, Agreed, agreed, agreed. So I mean, you know, as far as, as far as everything else goes, it is, it is fascinating. I mean William, you're up here. I don't know if you're behind the mic, but I find it strange that on that the Bitcoin Ethereum ratio has basically almost stayed exactly. I mean they've been almost perfectly correlated this week. I mean Ethereum had a nice little run towards 0.03 and it's been at 0.029 and change now all week. And today with Bitcoin theoretically falling because of this exploit, that's a very Bitcoin thing. Ethereum has moved exactly with it. I mean do you make anything of this or you think it's just the summer, there's options and you know, we're still. So we're stuck in a range and not much is happening. Are you there? I guess William went, got away from his mic, not expecting to be called on by the teacher.
- [35:06]
D
No, no, sorry, sorry David, I, I heard you. I had some technical difficulties. I'm not sure again last year it was August that we saw the rally and up until the end of August, I think the whole, the whole space, the narrative is very, is very messed up right now. That's the problem. There's lots of noise in the space. You know, I want to tell you a joke. Did you hear this happened? I saw this. Today 28 banks move real tokenized money across borders. Apparently those banks are very excited because they settled $1 million in 80 seconds through a shared ledger via BIS. And we're supposed to get excited about this 17, 17 years after Bitcoin got started. I mean this tells you where the banks are.
- [36:08]
B
Yeah, well, I mean this is a joke. I mean it. Look, the entire financial system is. The world will move to tokenized assets because of two real driving forces. One is being multi currency natively, which is a real problem for global assets and creates enormous frictional cost for people to trade cross border right now. Which of course means lots of profits for the banks and they love that. I was talking with a friend who made his first fortune in FX and foreign exchange which has really tight spreads. Everyone thinks of how great it is. It's an unbelievable source of just frictional cost into the economy that banks and trading firms make. They have no Incentive to change that, but it's going to get changed. It's like these sorts of things will happen. The other is, as you say, is speed. Banks make a lot of money on float. They, they do really well by not, by not having to pay interest while assets are in flight. And so while 80 seconds sounds slow to you and I, 80 seconds is a massive speed up compared to, you know, the, the days that the current batch system takes. So, yeah, we're early on a lot of this stuff. We really are. I mean, and that's all you're really saying is you're saying we are early. But there are certain things that are inevitable and the things that we're talking about are inevitable. It's a question of when does it get there? And it always takes a lot longer to overcome that inertia and overcome the vested interest of people who are holding on to what they're holding on to. That's a large part of this whole idiocy on the Clarity Act. And what you're seeing is you're seeing banks, some parts of the banks are saying, listen, we know it's inevitable, so we may as well get on with it and give ourselves an advantage in it. And there are other people in the bank saying, wait a minute, maybe we can hold it back and we can make more money. That's really the interesting part. And so that's why you see the same bank making different statements that seemingly contradict each other every day. And we are seeing that. Right? I mean, Jamie, I'm sure you've heard that in, you know, in your spaces, people whining about the bank saying, oh, how they're, they're fighting it. And then we see other statements where, where they're not. And, and I'm telling you, that's why it's coming from.
- [38:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think every day we, you know, we're trying to figure out what's going on. I think I heard Carlo in the other earlier space with Finance Daily saying that the latest, that there was some additional adjustments made to the language and then ret to for reconsiderations. And his outlook as far as a percentage was that he's leaning more likely than not that it will get resolved. So I think we're all kind of waiting to see what happens with it for sure.
- [39:10]
B
I mean, yeah, I mean, Carlo and I are very simpatico on our read of the thing. I mean, you know, I see Novogratz in Novo talking about how there will be a compromise, etc. I mean, look, honestly, this Today's news is a pretty important reason that can be. That could be a kick for it. But this is political and politics are just such a dirty game that I don't want to handicap it. I just know that a world where there is no. Where it's the Wild west is not good. A world where you have to worry that in three years you could have a completely different regulatory environment is one that chills innovation. Right. I mean, but the one thing that I will say and, and I can't believe I'm the only one who's saying this. Is I anybody else getting mad or annoyed when people call it the Bitcoin clarity Act? I, I don't think clarity has a damn thing to do with bitcoin really. I think it has to do with pretty much everything other than bitcoin in the world of crypto. I mean, is there anybody who want. Who thinks. I mean it might very well help bitcoin's price, but that would be it. Only because. Only because it will allow. There are probably some investors that are on the sideline that view it all as the same. And so. Yeah, maybe. But I don't really think it has a whole lot to do with bitcoin, do you?
- [40:31]
A
No, not at all. I think, I think there's the significant thing is some of the areas of defy obviously like you know, you know, what are they. You know, like even with like circle today, I think you saw the, the announcement that they were given the officially charter. Right. Like how does that expand and allow them greater access and, and give them. They're not officially banks but moving toward the, the direction of like institutional inclusion. Right. And how. And how stable coins are going to change likely how transactions and across global access. You know, I see this whole thing as, as a reworking of the financial rails, the financial system replacing Swift, you know, the near instant aspect of, of being able to reuse of capital. Like we're actually like probably going to look back and, and really be amazed about what we saw as a transformation. You know, sort of like we're Tom Lee and I know he can be kind of hyperbolic in his framing, but where gold was transformed within Wall street in some of the different tools and derivatives and whatnot. So I'm really excited I think about where these are the, these are the headaches of retinkering and configuring the engine that runs this whole financial system.
- [41:58]
B
Yeah, I tend to agree. I mean I think gold is an interesting example because you would talk to people on the world gold Council or gada, and they will tell you that the derivatives and that ETFs were helpful, but that the derivatives that sprung up around it allowed them to manipulate and suppress the price of gold for years. But the funny part about gold crypto is why that, why that is a ridiculous comparison is because crypto since 2017 has had 5x the volume in derivatives than it's had in spot, meaning that crypto's already always had these derivatives. And the derivatives have accentuated volatility on both sides, all sorts of effects. I mean, yes, Bitmex wound down, but the perpetual swap is an amazing invention that has done a lot of different things. And so, yeah, in crypto I don't really see that way, but what I do see is many of the market structure innovations will ultimately end up in traditional finance. And if you believe that Ethereum's role in that is going to be a big role, then I understand why Williams constantly says it's undervalued. Right? Because it is going to. Whether it's Ethereum or Solana or some player to be named later, the financial system is going to be transformed and the utilities that underlie it are going to have value. The question is how much it really is. That simple. And those are hard things to model Bitcoin. Look, all I could say is this. If you do any piece of analysis on any asset and you start comparing it to the amount of monetary expansion and deficit spending that has happened over the last 25 years, it is a very rare asset class that is outperformed. So if you normalize everything to the amount of money printed, you find everything gone up. So house prices, if you look, have actually underperformed M2. But what is M2? M2 is what you're measuring it by. So that means that house prices have gotten cheaper. Well, no, they haven't. Why? Because wages have actually underperformed more. And so what you're seeing is capital flows and changes. Once people start thinking down this road, it's very easy to explain to them why an asset like Bitcoin that is digitally, improvably and verifiably scarce is so important to use as a measuring stick. That thing becomes very easy. But it's funny because it's only recently that you're starting to see that notion of debasement trade go from the professional class down to, you know, people's lives, because they're looking at things like house prices. And yet, you know, to me, that that's a big part of that, that narrative. And I think that Narrative shift is going to be what's going to push the next run next, the next bull run. I really do and I think it's going to come sooner than people think. But you know, I guess we'll see.
- [44:54]
A
Yeah, it always ranges sideways. It's, it's boring. And then out of nowhere, boom. Bitcoin does bitcoin things right on the defi side. You know, I saw a post, I think it was with crypto Town hall actually and another one on coin telegraph about AAVE that you know, being responsible for about almost 50% of all the on chain loans. And like, I think to your point Dave, like what crypto it serves for the financial system is more like a beta test of what innovations can do and then the ones that they like the most, they'll adopt and then they'll surround with regulations to, to safeguard it and then it'll get merged into the, the, the Tradfi financial system. So I, I think they kind of work hand in hand together because you can't do this on, you know, this is perfect to have like to as a beta test on a side chain in a small asset class, but you don't want to have major tests on massive asset classes from a traditional finance standpoint. So I think it serves its purpose.
- [46:01]
B
No, that's true. Well, look, you know, I look at this stuff very simply. I mean, you know, Jackson, I see you joined, I mean you talk about, you actually just did a post on the value of money. Right. You know, those are the sorts of things that will ultimately matter and that's the narrative that matters for a lot of this. And, and you know, I, I'm curious, I mean you jumped up. I mean this obviously must mean something to you.
- [46:28]
F
Yeah, I mean I, I was actually, I'm doing an interview with, with someone after you guys wrap up, but I'm happy to share my thoughts. I mean obviously I, I'm a big fan or I'm a big believer that the, the actual inflation numbers are much higher than what they've given us. I, I, I'm a huge believer that just pointing out the problems with our current financial system, namely with the dollar, an asset that has lost, you know, roughly 99 of its value since it was created almost like over 200 years ago. And I just think that's like the best way to orange pill to get people to hold hard assets like Bitcoin, like gold. I think it's a massive issue and I don't think it's going to be solved anytime soon as I'm sure most of these people on this panel probably agree.
- [47:16]
B
Yep. I think it's a great transition. So, you know, it's good to have you up. Is it, Ari, that you're doing the interview?
- [47:23]
F
Yes.
- [47:24]
B
Okay, cool. So I'm gonna, I'll let you guys get to it.
- [47:27]
F
Well, thank you, Dave. And good, good afternoon. Or I guess good morning. Happy Friday everybody. I hope everyone's having a wonderful week. Really appreciate the opportunity to want to say thanks to Crypto Town hall for being able to jump on here and, and do a. Do. Do a good interview. We're talking to Ari Trow. I. I believe is how you pronounce it. He can correct me. Ari, why don't you quickly introduce yourself, man. Thanks for joining us today.
- [47:50]
E
Hi.
- [47:51]
G
Yeah, thank you very much. It's tr, by the way. It's Ari Tro, kind of. I always say to people, it's like someone from Brooklyn saying to throw the ball. So it's like, like throw the ball, you know, so it's Tro is the last name. But um, I'm a, a long time entrepreneur and developer and that sort of a thing. My current thing since 2018 or so. So I've been working on XYO, which is a crypto project and we have XL1, which is also our, our main chain for that, which is a deepin Oracle system that we use to be able to, to access resources on the, the, the crypto realm. Should I say almost like little micro MCP servers to some degree, where you have different people doing different tasks at the little edge nodes and stuff like that. So, so to me, it's a really exciting sovereign project because I, I'm more, I'd say I'm more of a sovereignist than I am a cryptist, if that makes sense. What you get from, from sovereignty, whether it's technology or in the case of Bitcoin, Bitcoin is a sovereign digital cash that you can transfer remotely, which has sovereignty. But to me the goal is actually really sovereignty at the end of the day. And so I refer to myself as a dataist, but I guess the sovereignness is probably a term I would use myself as well. And so my goal as a person is just really to build these technologies and to build these things so that we could have decentralized technologies and concepts that people can use beyond just Bitcoin or, or the transfer of money, but potentially the transfer of data and the access of data, controlling your own data, you know, it's a big thing for me as opposed to having, you know, the bank control, all your data for you and those sorts of things. So I guess that's the brief background for me as far as what I'm currently working on and how I got here.
- [49:50]
F
Yeah, I appreciate that. That's really cool. I totally agree. I think, you know, a big reason why most people got into the space, especially in previous years, five, 10 years ago, was for the reasons that you just mentioned, being wanting to hold your own assets, not wanting to be reliant on some other entity. But you guys also, you mentioned you guys have a deepen. I, I think Deepin is a really fascinating space and it hasn't been getting much conversation, but you guys are actually the largest Deepin in the world. You have 10 million or over 10 million nodes. And what I think is really interesting is that you guys say that most of your users, around 80% of them are actually not crypto native people. These are people that you have brought into the space. You know. Why do you think that your product has been so appealing to non crypto users?
- [50:37]
G
Well, we've gamified it probably more than most people have. We have this, this app called Coin where a person can go in there and they can, we call it Geomining. And they collect data from all over the world and they can do different tasks and those sorts of things and they can get rewarded. So it's a very easy on ramp. And also like in many cases the blocking thing for a person with crypto is step one, you know, make a wallet and understand how that works. Step two is, you know, get some crypto from somewhere. Now it's easier, you can go to exchanges or whatever it is. But I remember back in the day where it's like, well, you know, find a friend that has some eth so you can, you know, give him some cash so you can send some eat to you. Because it was kind of hard to, to bootstrap yourself. And so, you know, that's gotten better over time. But still it's the barrier of entry to get into crypto for many things are, you know, it's really low if you're already a crypto person, but it's high if you're a non crypto person. So getting, you know, I always say if I can get my mom to use the, the project, and I'm 56 years old, so my mom's in her 80s. If I can get my mom to actually understand how the UI works and be able to click, click, click and get it to work, that's probably the bar that we should be shooting for as opposed to somebody who's listening on this panel here right now being able to onboard themselves to the thing. So I think we've really focused on ease of use and making it simple for a person to do it. And it's a benefit and feature first as opposed to a crypto first approach. And then kind of like, like tell a person afterwards. Oh, by the way, you know, the stuff you've been doing is, you know, it's sovereign and here's the benefits of it and that sort of thing. So it's also, I think for many people it's almost an education system. You're almost exposing them to some of these concepts without them even knowing about it. And then when they, once they understand what's going on, they're like, wow, that's, that's really cool. So I think a lot of people out there who are non crypto people, they don't appreciate crypto, what sovereignty is or why these things are interesting or important. And honestly, I think in the age of AI, a lot of people are like, well, everyone's going to AI now crypto's dead. It's like, well, I actually think sovereignty is going to be a huge part of AI and how to actually structure AI and have IT use data and that sort of thing. So I think the overlap between sovereign technologies like XYO and AI and definitely AI agents is going to be huge in the future. And I just don't think a lot of people have put, you know, the two and two together there.
- [53:04]
F
Yeah, let's, let's keep talking about AI. You guys have or in May you launched what you're calling your A X Y O AI SDK software development kit. You say this is built, you know, for vibe coding. You don't need any technical experience, you don't need any block or blockchain background. Can you talk a little bit about how this actually works?
- [53:24]
G
Yeah, so what, what happened was, yeah, we started actually making our own skills for our own development. We're like, hey, you know, like to get, because we use AI every single day and encoding things for, for our system. And so we started making skills for it because then, you know, you end up with much more consistency and for it to have knowledge about different things and all that. So internally we were using skills for quite a while and we're like, hey, if we make these skills available to developers or people who want to make things with xyo, it'll be a lot easier for them to make things because it's easier for us to make things what our goal was to put those together when we had the first version of our SDK was to be able to say, well, can we make it as a one shot successful take XYO and make a simple adapt on it? Basically we got that to the point where we could, you know, a person could really, with the little set of skills we had, they could one shot something and say, hey, I want to make a simple game where you know, this, this transfers from here to here and you know, and a person stores this on, on the chain and so on and so forth. And we got to the point where it was a one shot there. And then over time we've been refining that SDK to make it so it's, it's easier and you need less, you know, less of a prompt really to get that one shot to work. But, but at the end of the day really the one shot is almost more of a demonstration. What you really want with the AI SDK is to have the AI understand the context of the SDKs you're using and the integrations and so on and so forth. You know, in the cases of like Bitcoin or Ethereum, a lot of the models already know that because they learned that during their training and because you know, those are obviously huge projects. But for any project that's not of that scope, you have to kind of, you know, give it that information so it knows where it is. Because if you like. For example, when we first started using AI with, with Xyo, our addresses are the same shape and we use the same elliptical curve for our primary signing right now as Ethereum. And so as soon as the AI sees that it assumes, well, it's just like Ethereum. It assumes kind of like we're an EVM compatible blockchain, which we're absolutely not. We're a layer one blockchain and we store data completely differently than Ethereum does. And there's no smart contracts as such on chain. So it would make these assumptions and just write code that's completely wrong because it's like, well, I'm going to write this as if it's going to run on Ethereum. And so we realized you have to kind of steer it because in a weird sort of way the good knowledge it has about Ethereum contaminates what it assumes about us. And so to correct that steering, you have to make skills and make these skills available for people. And so there's a cool tool called Skills Sh. I don't know people here who use AI very familiar with it. And you just go on there and basically attach our skills and, and pull them in, into a repo and then once you have that, you can basically vibe code your way onto solutions with xyo really easily. So I think most projects out there probably should, should do that same thing if they haven't already. Obviously the bigger projects probably have them already, but it's something which I think is a necessity going forward, not an option.
- [56:37]
F
Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's still a lot of questions around. I mean, there's not a lot of questions around whether or not AI is useful. It's absolutely useful, but there's still some concerns about how secure and how safe apps built with AI can actually be. Are you guys worried about this problem at all? You know, how are you focused on keeping these, these, these apps that people are building using your AI SDK trustworthy, when trust is really kind of the whole thing that you guys are selling right now?
- [57:08]
G
Well, I think there's, there's kind of different layers there. Right. So if you. This is again, another reason why I think the, the sovereign crypto world is important for the future of AI is because for Ethereum or for us or for any of these platforms, we use a protocol. And that protocol basically is locked down. And it's like if it doesn't conform to the protocol, it gets rejected by the system or the, you know, the block producers and so on and so forth so that the AI can make bad code. But like our results, before we had our AI SDK, our results were pretty much like this thing would write code and then the code would just not work because it would get rejected by the system. Right. So it's like, think this is great. It rolled a completely invalid transaction to try to put up there, and then it gets rejected because the protocol says that's not allowed. So the security there still stays at the protocol level where the AI can't make invalid blocks and can't do invalid things on there. I think the hard part though is the layer up where if you make an app or adapt that has a UI and the UI kind of says it does one thing, but it does something else under the covers. It's really the social engineering aspect of it there. And I think that's where the risk really comes in for AI in general is people don't know what it's doing, they don't understand the code, they don't understand what's happening behind the scenes. So technically, I think using AI to do this is all secure. But who's driving The AI is kind of the question and are they doing things in a way that, that you think is happening? So if, you know, they pop up a thing saying, well, approve transfers for this ERC 20 up to a certain amount. The person's like, sure, okay, you know, now this thing has license to go and spend all your money, which you probably don't want. So figuring out how to make the, the human interface and, and you know, once a human gets in the loop, they're safe. That, that edge is where I think the risk is. It's the, but it's the integration with the human control where you know, the hacking or the errors or the, you know, it's probably in most cases not malicious. It's just, you know, the AI trying to accomplish something and making it so that's easy for the user to do something. Also I think a big risk is just people don't realize that what I do personally is I just have a laptop that's completely dedicated to using my AI and my coding. I don't have any crypto wallets on there. I have a completely separate wallet or a separate laptop for my crypto stuff. Basically it's a hardware wallet as a laptop and then I have a separate hardware wallet. So worst case scenario, my AI on my computer where I'm developing steals my Sepulia ETH and my test XYO and test XL1 and stuff like that because it can't get to my other wallets. But I think a lot of people, they have one laptop. So if you, you know, give a, a, a browser MCP access or, or full screen access to a person, to your AI, your AI can do a lot. It can, it can do scary things with your wallet, potentially unintentionally. And you know, a great example of that is I, I've seen many times people, rather than calling a function on a smart contract like an ERC20 to transfer something, they'll send funds to the actual contract and it gets, you know, black holed there forever. If your AI makes a mistake and does that, it's going to send your, it's going to blow the chance of black holing your, your, your funds is pretty high. And so I think the biggest thing for people to do is not to use AI in the same sandbox as your day to day usage of things.
- [60:48]
F
Yeah, I really, really appreciate that, that, that, that's a, that's a great answer. Talk about some of your partnerships. You guys announced something with Revolut in December which, you know, Americans might not be super, super familiar with, but it's a massive bank worldwide Crypto.com, you also announced that this week. What's driving the mainstream push right now? What is making these companies interested in your business and what you're building?
- [61:13]
G
I think the biggest thing is third party validation of things. A lot of these companies out there, especially with AI, again, you know, not knowing what's happening or whatever it is, having something other than your AI or something other than your own system, verify data, verify actions having happened. Because the way our XL1 layer one works is we call it the, the settlement layer. So basically the idea is that we don't store stuff on chain, we store hashes of stuff on chain. And so if we go and say, well we think that this is valid, or we have a pillow that says something's valid, we don't store that entire thing on there. On Ethereum, usually you have to store the entire thing on there. We can basically validate something, store the fact that it's validated and then they can go and retrieve its validated and show that hash later on. For them, it's not replacing something they're already doing, it's adding additional security or adding additional validation to it or, or permanence, you know, kind of through the sovereignty thing out there. But to me, providence and permanence really are big parts also with sovereignty. So to me that's the big three of what I want to see in technology is providence, permanence and sovereignty. And many of these companies, what they want is they want the prominence and permanence part. So proof of where it came from and unchangeable proof of where it came from. So us as a chain, we're an inexpensive way to do that and to provide them a third party, Oracle type observer that can permify things and have them stay around as a third party. So they can just basically send somebody to our explorer and say, hey, here's a link that proves that this thing happened at that point in time. We can't take it back.
- [62:58]
F
Yeah, that's really cool. There's just so many possibilities with this technology. It's hard to imagine and what the world's going to look like in a few years. Let's talk about your tokens a little bit. You have two tokens which you mentioned briefly. It's XYO and XL1. These have two different purposes. Could you explain what those purposes are and then also explain how they actually interact with the SDK, with the people that are building on your, on your network?
- [63:25]
G
Sure, sure. So the XYO is our, our staking token. It's a deflationary token. There's a certain fixed amount and it's shrinking as far as people obviously lose it and they some get black holes or whatever it is, but there will never be more of those. It's, we use it as a, like a redemption for example on coin and it's a way to, you know, to pay people for, for functionality on the system. But primarily it's used for staking so and for security. XL1 is the gas for the XL1 main chain. And that's an inflationary token, kind of like a Bitcoin where as it's being, as the blocks are being built, the block rewards are basically generating new XL1 tokens but at a decreasing rate over time. So there is a theoretical finite amount that will ever exist, but they don't all exist just yet. So it's not quite a deflationary token, but it's eventually a deflationary token, if that makes sense. And so with XL1 we did that because we needed to have block rewards to pay people to do stuff and that sort of a thing. So that's really the, the day to day token a person would use if they want to develop on our blockchain is XL1 token. And to pay for gas and to, to transfer value around stuff on the actual chain. You know, it's a, it's a native token that's on there that, that transfers back and forth. We do have a bridge which bridges it back and forth to Ethereum so you can get a ERC20 wrapped version of, of XL1, which is generally what you see on all the exchanges.
- [65:02]
F
All right, appreciate that as well. Last question here is, is just you've called the SDK, you've called this part one and you've even said that you know what's coming is going to surprise people who have been watching what you guys are building for a while. Is there anything that you can reveal or share with us today about what's coming and what you guys have planned for the future?
- [65:22]
G
Well, the thing that I've been doing with our SDK is fast running more dapps and solutions basically that run on XL1 and it's been evolving. It's one of those things where we update our SDK, especially our AI SDK very regularly, but you don't see how it improves quickly. And we also use AI to, to write, write the AI SDK, if that makes sense. It's kind of a self perpetuating thing. I'm sure the same thing happens at OpenAI and at Anthropic where they use the AI to write their AI, if that makes sense. And so the velocity at which our AI SDK and our ability to actually make solutions and do things on our chain is growing really fast. It's not a linear growth. And so being able to spin up several projects at the same time, which is what I've been doing this last week or so, I've been, you know, making four projects in parallel at the same time with our AI SDK that are full on MIDI Dapps basically that run on XL1. Granted, I'm using, you know, my $200 a month Claude, $200 a month Codex and $200 a month Grok all at the same time. So it does require quite a few tokens if you actually want to make large solutions on there, but still at, you know, 600amonth to be able to make, you know, four full, full stack solutions basically using our back end is something which I've not seen before in my career. And I've been developing software since the late 70s when I was in third grade. I got my TRC Model 1 back then, so which kind of dates me. But the velocity of which we see ourselves developing sovereign and solutions for the world using our AI SDK is incredible. And being able to share my experiences with how I've built those things and letting other people build things just as fast on our platform is something which I look forward to the very near future. So I think people will be surprised to see how fast we can basically come up with solutions which would have taken us six months to a year before and now it takes us six weeks or, or less or even, you know, three weeks to make the same thing. And so I think people will be surprised how, how well those are, how well that's, that's working and also how the world is, is, is enjoying that, that development. We have the crypto.com thing we're on there now, we're integrating into a lot of things. As far as our native token, that's obviously one of the more difficult things in a project like this is getting an ERC20 listed or integrated into someone's system is pretty easy because everyone knows how to use the ERC 20, but working on the native integrations where they have to use our SDK to be able to transfer money and that sort of thing is more difficult. But we've even seen that being quite easy for a lot of our partners where using our SDK to be able to Add us to a custody, for example, and those sorts of things has been very rewarding and it shows that the SDK does its job.
- [68:41]
F
I think this is probably a teaser of what's to come from a lot of other companies too. I mean, AI, outside of the conversations around is it a bubble and, and it's obviously a super revolutionary technology. It's obviously changing how we do business, it's obviously changing how we build apps. And it's, it's just cool to see the, the early leaders, the early movers in this space finding success. Ari, thank you so much for, for joining us today. Do you have any final words you'd like to share real quick before we wrap up here?
- [69:15]
G
No, no. Thank you very much for having me on there. If you want to see what we're working on, make sure you follow me or follow our, our official XYO account. And we're posting our stuff on there all the time. As I said, you know, it's only part one and we have a road map that's jam packed with cool things to come out. You know, we're one of the, the very active projects out there. I think a lot of projects right now become a little bit more nascent because of the fact that, you know, the market's been what it is, but we're very actively developing stuff there. So, you know, definitely follow us. You can see the, the cool things there. And I continue to be super excited about the space, especially the overlap between AI and the crypto and sovereign world.
- [69:58]
F
Yeah, likewise, Ari. Great to speak with you everyone. Please give them a follow. Please, please give me a follow as well. And with that, I'll kick it back,
- [70:06]
B
kick it back to Dave.
- [70:07]
F
So thanks. Thanks for letting me jump on and do this, guys.
- [70:10]
D
Appreciate you.
- [70:10]
G
Thanks, guys.
- [70:19]
A
Dave, you there?
- [70:20]
B
You muted.
- [70:38]
G
Sa.