North Korea’s Lazarus Behind $1.4bn Bybit Hack | Crypto Town Hall

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Wolf Of All Streets – Episode: North Korea’s Lazarus Behind $1.4bn Bybit Hack | Crypto Town Hall

Release Date: February 24, 2025

Host: Scott Melker

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Introduction

In this episode of The Wolf Of All Streets, host Scott Melker delves deep into the aftermath of the massive $1.4 billion Bybit hack, allegedly orchestrated by North Korea’s Lazarus Group. Joined by industry experts Matt Hogan, Cena, AK, Tom, Simon, and Dave Weisberger, the discussion navigates through market reactions, Bitcoin ETF dynamics, altcoin performance, the evolving meme coin landscape, and impending regulatory changes in the cryptocurrency space.

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Market Overview Post-Bybit Hack

Scott Melker opens the discussion by addressing the recent tumult in the cryptocurrency market following the Bybit hack. Despite the significant theft, Bitcoin remains relatively stable, trading at $94,500 with slight downturns, while Ethereum shows resilience by trading sideways. Altcoins, however, are experiencing notable declines, with Solana plummeting by 16% in a day.

Scott Melker [00:00]: "Bitcoin down, trading at 94,500 down day here. Ethereum obviously also down, but surprisingly relatively sideways for having $1.4 billion worth stolen by the North Koreans."

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Bitcoin ETF Demand Analysis with Matt Hogan

Matt Hogan provides insights into the dynamics of Bitcoin ETF investments. Referencing an article from Cointelegraph by Marcus Thielen at Tenex Research, Matt discusses the claim that only 44% of US Bitcoin ETF purchases are for long-term holding (HODLing), suggesting that 56% are for arbitrage or carry trades.

Matt Hogan [02:44]: "I think 56% sounds totally extreme. I think it's more like 20, 25%, something like that."

Matt emphasizes that while a portion of ETF investments is speculative, the long-term demand from ETFs, corporations, and governments remains robust, projecting over $50 billion in inflows for the year.

Matt Hogan [04:42]: "The long term part of the market... whether you think that's 50 or like I do more like 70 plus percent... I think we'll see the inflows come back."

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Solana's Price Drop and Its Implications

Solana’s sharp decline, dropping 16% in a day, is a focal point of concern. Matt attributes this to rumors linking the Lazarus Group to Solana, raising fears of regulatory scrutiny and money laundering activities. This association has eroded investor confidence, resulting in significant sell-offs.

Matt Hogan [17:04]: "Solana is pretty obvious to me at least, you know, they're rumors that Lazarus is laundering the money... people are worried about that regulatory headline."

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Altcoin Performance and Future Outlook

The conversation shifts to the broader altcoin market, where speakers express skepticism about altcoin prospects in the current cycle. Cena highlights the dominance of meme coins in capital absorption, overshadowing traditional altcoins and leading to their underperformance.

Cena [10:37]: "Altcoins just haven't shown that much of a potential to fly this cycle... meme coins captured a lot of capital."

Tom adds that defining fundamentals for altcoins is increasingly challenging due to the ease of launching new tokens, making it difficult to assess their true value beyond network effects and active usage.

Tom [20:07]: "How do you value these things? It's probably something like network effects, mindshare some level of usage like active addresses."

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Meme Coins Cycle and Criticisms

A significant portion of the discussion critiques the current state of meme coins, characterizing them as extractive and unsustainable. Speakers express frustration over the dilution of capital away from utility-driven projects towards speculative gambling in meme tokens. Simon and Cena argue that the meme coin trend is self-destructive, leading to minimal value creation and maximal supply without substantial utility.

Simon [25:52]: "If this happens, it would just be... I hope that marks the end of an era, and then we move on to the next thing."

Cena [46:26]: "The whole game is extraction... It's just a matter of figuring out the timing."

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Regulatory Perspectives on Cryptocurrency Markets

Dave Weisberger and other panelists delve into the evolving regulatory landscape. Dave emphasizes the need for fair regulation to prevent market manipulation and ensure a level playing field. He critiques past regulatory approaches, particularly under figures like Elizabeth Warren and Gary Gensler, for being overly restrictive and counterproductive.

Dave Weisberger [32:14]: "There is a version of a world where being able to be prosecuted for fraud... is not a bad thing."

The panelists discuss the challenges of regulating decentralized platforms and meme coins, highlighting the importance of accountability and the deterrence effect of increased likelihood of consequences for bad actors.

Simon [25:52]: "...anyone can launch a meme Coin, but they have to be accountable for everything that they actually do."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the consensus among the panelists is one of cautious optimism for the future of cryptocurrency. While the short-term market exhibits volatility and challenges, particularly with altcoins and regulatory pressures, there is confidence in the long-term institutional demand and the potential resurgence of utility-driven projects.

Scott Melker concludes by expressing hope for a stronger market performance moving into March, advocating for a return to utility and substantive blockchain projects over speculative ventures.

Scott Melker [65:03]: "Any final calls to action for the listeners who are tuning in?"

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Key Takeaways

• Bybit Hack Impact: Despite the massive $1.4 billion theft linked to North Korea’s Lazarus Group, Bitcoin remains relatively stable, while altcoins, especially Solana, face significant downturns.

• Bitcoin ETF Investments: A majority of Bitcoin ETF investments may be driven by short-term trading strategies rather than long-term holding, though institutional demand remains strong.

• Altcoin Market Skepticism: Traditional altcoins struggle due to the overshadowing impact of meme coins, which absorb capital without providing substantial utility.

• Meme Coin Critique: Meme coins are viewed as extractive and unsustainable, leading to capital dilution and minimal long-term value creation.

• Regulatory Evolution: There's a pressing need for fair and effective regulation to prevent market manipulation and ensure accountability within the cryptocurrency ecosystem.

• Future Outlook: The panelists remain optimistic about institutional inflows and the potential for utility-driven projects to drive the next phase of cryptocurrency growth.

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Notable Quotes

• Matt Hogan [02:44]: "I think 56% sounds totally extreme. I think it's more like 20, 25%, something like that."

• Cena [10:37]: "Altcoins just haven't shown that much of a potential to fly this cycle... meme coins captured a lot of capital."

• Simon [25:52]: "If this happens, it would just be... I hope that marks the end of an era, and then we move on to the next thing."

• Dave Weisberger [32:14]: "There is a version of a world where being able to be prosecuted for fraud... is not a bad thing."

• Scott Melker [65:03]: "Any final calls to action for the listeners who are tuning in?"

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This episode of The Wolf Of All Streets provides a comprehensive analysis of the current cryptocurrency landscape, highlighting the challenges and opportunities post-Bybit hack, the nuanced dynamics of Bitcoin ETF investments, the problematic rise of meme coins, and the critical need for regulatory reforms to ensure a stable and fair market environment.

Transcript

[Scott Melker]

Morning everybody. Happy Monday. Welcome to Crypto Town hall every day on X at 10:15am Eastern Standard Time, hosted by myself and the ghosts of Mario Noel and Rand Nooner. Although the ghost of Ran did show up in person on Saturday for a great interview with Ben, CEO of Bybit. For those of you who may have missed it, we did an impromptu Spaces on Saturday interviewing him and digging very deeply into what happened there. Quite a wild story. I'm sure we will get into it at least to some degree today. Although if you're really looking for information on what happened, at least fully Updated for about 48 hours ago, I would recommend going back and listening to that. I believe it's probably yes, it's the pin tweet on the Crypto Town hall account. But as the market has somewhat absorbed everything that happened over the past few days, we're now looking at Bitcoin down, trading at 94,500 down day here. Ethereum obviously also down, but surprisingly relatively sideways for having $1.4 billion worth stolen by the North Koreans. Or if you ask other people, it's all a grand conspiracy theory with no evidence because that's how stupid X is. But Solana absolutely getting smoked right now down open the day at 167. Trading at 152. Not sure exactly what's happening with the market. I would imagine we can get into it, Solana likely as a result of just dramatic reduction since Libra in interest in Meme Coins in the Meme Coin Casino. But not sure if there's something else going on there before we dig into all of that. First since we have Matt Hogan here. Good morning Matt. How are you doing?

[Matt Hogan]

Well, glad to be here.

[Scott Melker]

So we, we had all a couple crazy weeks here. I saw a story we had about 500 million I think in net outflows across crypto products last week. So obviously not a surprise when we see sort of choppy or boring price action. But there's actually an article I just brought up that I wanted to ask you ask you about. This is on Cointelegraph. It says only 44% of US Bitcoin ETF buying has been for Hodling. This is from Marcus Thielen at Tenex Research. He says that the demand for Bitcoin as a long term asset could be significantly smaller than the media portrays and basically says that that means 56% of US Bitcoin ETF buying is effectively for arbitrage or the carry trade. Does that align with anything you're seeing? A bit wise?

[Matt Hogan]

Well I think, I think a significant amount is for arbitrage in the carry trade, but I don't know how the data gets to anywhere near 56%. I think it may be 2020. So it's, it's definitely a real amount. You know that when you see the list of hedge fund names at the top of 13F filings, right, they're not there going long, only Bitcoin. That's not what they do. That is carry trade money. But I think 56% sounds totally extreme. I think it's more like 20, 25%, something like that. And that's part and parcel of any ETF that's not unique to crypto really. You know, they're, they're, they're held by short term traders they'll hire for various purposes and, and by long term investors. So that number is directionally right, but I think probably 2 or 3x bigger than what, what I think is real when I look at the data.

[Scott Melker]

And so are the outflows from last week, assuming that that data is even accurate, because I know everybody calculates these things in different ways. Do you think that that's just a result of this choppy market? Do you think it's related to Libra, the hack? I mean, can you ever point to specific things or just sort of the ebb and flow of a choppy market?

[Matt Hogan]

Yeah, I think you can point to actually a narrowing of that basis trade is the primary reason for that, those outflows. I don't think any of the long term investors, you know, honestly even knew about Libra. I was speaking at a number of, you know, institutional and actually one retail conference and there were exactly zero questions about Libra. I asked one audience how many people had heard of it. No hands went up. So that's just existing in the crypto, crypto echo chamber. I actually think Bybit is as well. So I think, you know, for the most part that was just a narrowing of the basis trade. Maybe there's some short term traders who got out as well. But I don't think it's a fundamental change. I think it's mostly hedge funds narrowing up.

[Scott Melker]

In your mind, is there then a catalyst to resume massive inflows?

[Matt Hogan]

Look, yeah, I think there's going to be a steady drip of massive inflows. I think the three horsemen of insatiable demand, ETFs, corporations and governments are all still moving into this asset long term. You know, I think we'll, we'll, we'll probably have inflows, we'll see what the, the basis trade does, you know, this week that definitely can provide a short term overhang. But the long term story is still good, right? I still think we're on track for north of 50 billion of inflows this year. Nothing that we're seeing at Bitwise with our clients tells us things are slowing down. So yeah, I think this is just a short term pause. The, the long term part of the market, whether you think that's 50 of the ETFs or like I do more like 70 plus percent isn't even actually paying attention to the negative news. So I think we'll see the inflows come back. Scott?

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Dave, we haven't spoken in so long. Yes, at least 23 minutes.

[Dave Weisberger]

I just want to, I want to point out something that that's important and Matt knows this, but you know, was kind enough not to talk about it. The basis trade is not a monolith. The reason it exists is because there are brokerage firms out there, very large ones, one of which I used to work with. I started my career at Morgan Stanley, long, long time ago. In a galaxy far, far away. Cannot touch physical Bitcoin. I know the word physical Bitcoin is meaningless, but they can't touch spot. And so when they do derivative trades for their clients, they have to use futures. When they are an authorized participant and have to make prices in big ETF blocks, they have to use the futures. So as a result the futures are traded at a premium ever since we started with cash settlement. Now eventually this year they will be allowed to. Once Paul Atkins is confirmed and they manage to get some safe harbor set up, they will be allowed to trade in the spot markets and that basis will disappear. That is not a bearish thing because fundamentally the reason the basis exists in the first place is because there's demand from their customers to buy Bitcoin through less conventional means means things like principal protected notes or things like, you know, non deliverable forwards, etc. Because the clients don't want to worry about, you know, the, the, the aspects of Bitcoin in terms of, you know, they read about hacks, etc. So understand that, that even the basis trade is being driven by fundamental demand. It's just not demand that is from the bit, you know, so from the ETF side. So this article is basically, to use your favorite word, Scott, a nothing burger. Whether the demand will decrease or not, that's a different story. And I think Matt well understands and is probably closest than anyone on the panel to where the, what the demand drivers look like. But they seem pretty healthy to me. And honestly, when I see this stuff, people always forget markets are interrelated. It's just like the idiots who constantly chirp that oh, the demand is from the supply is from the OTC markets and worry about that the OTC markets merely reflect the supply from the totality of the spot and derivative markets throughout crypto. Because the OTC deaths are not taking these huge risks and they don't have inventory. It's not like they're buying computers, holding them in warehouses and waiting for people to come and buy them from them. No, they're accessing liquidity in the market. So all this stuff's interrelated and this stuff is just nonsense. I mean it's just literal nonsense. Who cares what the percentage of ETF issue of ETF buying is through for hedge funds? Because the hedge funds are merely reacting to a basis that exists because there's demand from another source.

[Scott Melker]

How do you really feel about it, Dave? Just kidding, Matt. You were giving him the thumbs up. I assume you agree.

[Matt Hogan]

No, that's exactly right. Yeah. I think the point that resonates so strongly there is that the basis exists because there's excess demand. Right. So it's absolutely true that this is just all part and parcel of demand. If there was no demand, there'd be no basis there. So I think that's a really strong point.

[Scott Melker]

Okay, so we're not particularly concerned with the ebb and flow of inflows and outflows as usual that we've now been talking to death for 13 months.

[Matt Hogan]

No, the inflows will continue. The inflows are going to continue for five years. They'll come and go, they'll be up and down periods, they'll probably even be negative months at some point. But this is, this is a multi year trade. Yeah, I think, I think the real institutional money is still just queuing up to come into the market. It's gonna, it's gonna take months and quarters and years.

[Scott Melker]

Makes sense. Anybody else specific thoughts on this topic before we move on? Last chance for hands. All right. Yeah. So I, I think worth talking about now obviously the, the market itself, we didn't see, I think much reaction to the Bybit hack, which was, I think surprised many. We've seen reports that they've already replenished the Ethereum. Of course, some of that coming from bridge loans, some of it coming from buying on the open market. But obviously right now we're in once again in one of these Situations where bitcoin is still arguably sideways, even though it's now, you know, well below $95,000. But altcoins just getting, you know, annihilated. So I don't know if anyone has a thought on why that would specifically be happening here. Like I said, I mean Solana pretty far down. If you take a look at the Ethereum vs Bitcoin chart, it kind of hit a resistance and heading on the way back down. Very hard to find much excitement in the altcoin market. Almost nothing is green and a lot of these are still are down 7, 8% today. So meaningful move. Anyone thoughts on what's happening right now with altcoins? Cena.

[Cena]

Yeah, I think altcoins just haven't shown that much of a potential to fly this cycle. A lot of calls for the alt season has not really panned out except in the meme coin space. And I think meme coin has absorbed a lot of the capital.

[Matt Hogan]

Right.

[Cena]

Traditionally you would see bitcoin rise and then there would be this massive amount of demand that follows the smaller coins. Just to replicate what just happened to bitcoin, people would realize that there wouldn't be that, you know, 100x in Bitcoin anymore. So they would. So essentially the gambling or the lev, the get rich quick money would, would, would switch to altcoins to outperform bitcoin. This cycle meme coins came in and they are offering a much better deal to people. You can, you can 100x your, your money in a couple hours. Who would want to, you know, invest in a more, if that's the right word, a legacy altcoin where it just grows much slower and the bigger they get, the slower they grow. So meme coins captured a lot of capital, but the game in memecoins is also who can dump faster. So at the end of the day, all the capital is also coming out of all those. Some of that may be stored in US dollars, some of that rotated into bitcoin. So I just think a lot of the appeal of the middle ground altcoins have been taken away by, by meme coins which themselves are kind of self harming because they're super easy to create. Once there is some money to be made, there would be like 100x more coins created and they quickly drain all the capital and there would be a race to the bottom to, to destroy all the capital that entered. So for the, in that backdrop, I just, I just don't see, you know, altcoins outperforming or like performing like they did in the last cycles. And bitcoin is also in this sideways, sideways action. I just see this as similar to what we had last year. We had a, last year we had a couple weeks of, couple or maybe at most one month of explosive price growth because of the ETFs. And then we had seven months of sideways. Essentially what happened there was the market is trying to absorb all that, all that price appreciation. And the same thing is happening right now. We again go back to November. We had three weeks of pump from 64 to 100 and plus 100 more than 100. And we are simply absorbing all that, giving ourselves time to absorb that. And actually yesterday I was looking at the real absorbed capital which is the realized cap and that has increased from 700 billion to 860 billion just in the last three months where the price was acting as if bitcoin doesn't really do anything but new capital is constantly coming in. And that by the way, that figure is about $2 billion a day. So I just see it as a temporary pause because the price really went too far ahead of the bitcoin fundamentals.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, AK then Matt.

[AK]

Yeah, thanks guys. I think the market sentiment this week and for the greater part of this month, really, really since Trump dropped that token has been quite divided. I know a lot of investors did exit, know a lot of the AI driven tokens that were kind of a little overhyped. But you know, in my opinion, kind of, as Matt here has mentioned and as CENA has mentioned, you know, the inflows will continue coming in. You know, I think there's also a potential, you know, slowdown just with the, with regards to the federal exchanges or, sorry, the Fed's interest rate cut. They're only kind of pricing in about 2, 2, 2 cuts this year. Additionally there probably a lot of the uncertainty around tariffs and you know, I know Trump has kind of put like a pause on it for 30 days, but I know there's going to be a ton of drama. You know, we're leading into the summer months as well. A lot of the, the portfolio managers or some of the bigger traders used to say back in the day, sell in May and go away. So there may be some weakness there. Historically, I think bitcoin does, doesn't perform quite well in the months of May. That's just from my memory, not from a statistic. I do also think that the defi markets have been increasing in actual volume as well as TVLs. And you know, the market is still floating in the, you know, just some under $4 trillion. So, guys, we're not going anywhere. It's just a lot of rotations and most of the time you want to be in the top five or top 10 to protect any of the volatility or risk off from the altcoins that are beyond there. So I don't think we're going anywhere. I love where bitcoin is positioned And I think 2025 is going to also be another big year for it. It's just a lot of profit taking from last year maybe.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah. I think just Matt, to let you jump in in a second, just looking at the coin market cap at the moment, just looking at the larger caps, as you mentioned. I mean, still on seven days, Bitcoin's down 2%, Ethereum 5XRP 10, BNB 6. Salana's down 16% in seven days and basically 10% today, Doge down 15%. Cardano 13%. So, I mean, these coins are definitely kind of getting smoked last week. A lot of that is obviously today, but not, not much safe haven outside of bitcoin, which is down 2%. Go ahead, Matt.

[Matt Hogan]

Yeah, I was just going to say I think Solana is pretty obvious to me at least, you know, they're rumors that Lazarus is laundering the money or trying to launder the money through pump Fun. I think there's a lot of concerns about regulatory action against pump and, you know, North Koreans trying to use it as a money laundering technique would heighten that effort. And I think people are worried about that regulatory headline and what that will mean for the Solana ecosystem. So that's, that's probably today's move, and it's probably an overhang that may persist until we get some sort of investigation, which I think is very possible into, into the meme coin space. You know, it's. We've definitely seen the SEC peel back on lots of lawsuits and such, but that doesn't mean that, you know, that, that anything goes. And I think there's a reasonable probability, particularly after these headlines, that you're going to see some people poking around at that. So I think that's the Solana pullback. The only thing I was going to add is I think there's a. And you know, there's some mention of this. I think. I think there's a quiet renaissance taking place in Defi. You're starting to see it in the tvl.

[Scott Melker]

You guys matter. Just me. No, I think it's just you. Oh, so here. Matt.

[Matt Hogan]

Yeah.

[Mario Noel]

Can.

[Scott Melker]

Can.

[Matt Hogan]

Can you hear me now?

[Alex]

Yeah, I hear him fine. I, I heard him fine. So you can keep going.

[Matt Hogan]

Okay, great. I, I'll just, I'll just wrap up. I was going to say I think the place to look for, you know may maybe the, the. The turning bull market is in defi. I think TVL is rising, use is rising and we've seen early signs that Defi is going to be the first place to respond to this switch in regulatory environment. Whether that's Jupiter doing the fee switch or, or unichain, I think you're going to start to see defi monetized in a major way and change the tokenomics of many of those tokens. So I'm actually, you know, if I'm looking for green shoots in the altcoin space I'm sort of looking past the alt layer ones straight to the apps and I think that may be where you see the, the bull market resume.

[Alex]

Yeah, I mean I'm pretty excited about like I have this feeling that VC projects are coming back and utility and like we're ready to get back to vesting schedules. You know we tried. We went from vesting schedules and VC backed projects to fair launch air quotes and then to scam launch basically like bundled you have no real chance of making money launch and now I think we might be ready to go back to like real people making real projects that people might use.

[Scott Melker]

Can you guys hear me? I had a glitch. Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, I thought it was on the X end but I think it was on mine so I missed the end of what Matt was saying and lawyer I did just catch the end of what you're saying is sort of move back to utility. Rationally I think that's what we're all looking for. It doesn't just not happening yet. Clear clearly. Tom, what do you think?

[Tom]

Yeah, you know it's funny I was thinking about this a lot the last few weeks and when we say return to fundamentals I get it, I get what we're going for but you know back in the dot com bubble we had the you know, metrics that were eyeballs and mindshare and et cetera and I kind of think in a weird way for marginal low cost technology in the industry we're in, effectively it's basically free to launch new tokens and the tech costs are zero or almost zero and getting approaching that from technologically new advances the switching cost and moats for these projects is effectively their network effects. So how do you value these things? It's probably something like network effects, mindshare some level of usage like active addresses and things like that. When we think about the fundamentals, I think it's going to continue to be harder and harder to define what is a fundamental in this space. And it's going to apply broadly more to traditional finance as well. And I think people are going to look at that and say, wow, you're making up metrics to try to fit your narrative. But, you know, in a world where costs are trending towards zero for fixed costs across the board, you know, I think this is. That the network effects are what we really have to bet on. And how we, how we quantify that, I think is like a new and interesting area. But I don't think fundamentals are the same across the board like they used to be. We can't just say like, oh, this is cash flow, this is revenue, whatever, because they mean very different things in very different contexts, particularly for crypto.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, I mean, maybe more accurately, people building things that have purported utility versus completely launching meme coins and hoping they exist in two hours. I mean, maybe that's kind of what lawyer is hitting too. I didn't hear his entire comment, but I think utility is very hard to define in crypto. To your point, Tom, you can imagine.

[Alex]

That we're in this weird spot after.

[Dave Weisberger]

The dot com bubble, or if it.

[Alex]

Didn'T crash when it did, and people started to realize that, hey, you know, pets.com is worth a lot. No one's actually using it. Maybe I can make a meme of it. And then they sell that. And like, we're there right now. We're sort of between, like, no one's using the tech yet to a good extent, but we know they will. So memes are doing well because they can. But I do think we're, we're heading towards something where adoption brings us to.

[Dave Weisberger]

That, you know, Valhalla.

[Scott Melker]

I mean, we're obviously seeing a sort of dramatic reduction in meme coins being launched since Libra, and certainly in volume on meme coins, I think they're going nowhere generally. Obviously, the casino will remain very, very popular. But does anybody here have a strong feeling on whether Trump and then obviously Libra and it's two presidents launching. I guess we can't call Libra a meme token, to be fair. Just rug pull, perhaps because it was literally launched with utility promised. So I don't think you can call it a meme coin, but I think most people kind of view it that way. Mental model, just because of what happened with Trump. Now we have Kanye West Maybe launching Swastikoin, which I have trouble even mentioning, but this feels like the ceiling is long in for this stupidity. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like it. Alex?

[Alex]

Yeah, I think we're approaching the end of the cycle on this one. I think people are getting burned out. I think the level of negative reaction that you're seeing to the discussion of the Kanye coin, Swast Coin, whatever you want to call it. Oh man. Ever just everyone's realizing how many games and terrible and like, if you look back at the recent quote unquote meme Coin launches, none of them have actually been Meme Coins. Right. Libra, Kanye, Trump, these are all just effectively VC backed projects by someone who has this existing brand and is looking to monetize it. And that is very different than like what meme coin 6, let alone 12 months ago were of at least relatively more organic, just random creations capitalizing on memes or news or whatever was going on. This just I think looks very different and it's, it's being so extractive that I think it's just burning out the candle fast.

[Scott Melker]

I mean, you have to imagine that there's a limited pool of capital for this. Right. And that that's largely being siphoned into the hands of the people that are launching these. I mean, Dave and I were talking.

[Alex]

Like meme coins were fun.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, I guess, I guess once it loses the fund and you're also not making money.

[AK]

Yeah, I don't know about the fun part. I think it was just less malicious. It was a lot less malicious. Everybody was just all, you know, nobody knew it entirely that it was going to go to exploiting others, exploiting celebrities, exploiting peoples of influence and really using their audiences to, to, to kind of, you know, have their, their exit liquidity be put in place. So that is the malicious part that makes it so unattractive. But had, had there been a way for this fair launch model that isn't bundled, you know, to, to, to kind of, you know, be cemented in the industry. It could have been something a lot greater where people could be onboarded, in my opinion. But what we saw over the last year has been 90% crime.

[Scott Melker]

Simon, I think you had your hand up.

[Simon]

Yeah. Just wanted to say like, if, if people haven't figured out the problems in this whole thing and sniping after the, you know, the Melee project, I, I don't know what else to say at this moment. I think the Kanye west coin is gross. I think it's anyone that participates that they deserve what they get from it, and I hope it leads to all the legal challenges that can come from it. So, I mean, this has to be the end of this whole extractive cycle. And it feels like we've hit that end of the ICO moment. But.

[Scott Melker]

So, Simon, shouldn't we say that this is the. It could be the end of this version of extraction before we move on to the next one?

[Simon]

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, we, you know, this is the crypto capital that is now being built. But it's just so gross. I just can't imagine anyone that wants to participate in this side. And I think the Kanye one will just be.

[Dave Weisberger]

If.

[Simon]

If this happens, it would just be. You know, I hope that marks the end of an era, and then we move on to the next thing.

[Scott Melker]

I mean, it's the worst of every part of what meme coins are, right? I mean, it's a celebrity grifting, it's anti Semitic, it's hateful. It's the worst of every possible thing and would be the perfect indication or perfect thing to finally alienate enough people to wash them out. But you have a little more faith in humanity than I do. I think that all the same people will buy and flip and pump and dump this thing just like everything else. Sadly. I mean, I've. I was a DJ for 20 years. I DJed for Kanye, actually, for a while, and from day one have always believed he's one of the worst human beings ever lived on the planet and despised the guy. So I can say that also watching that come to fruition at this point is not shocking to me in the least. But Dave Weisberger. Dave, we were having a conversation on macro Monday this morning on YouTube, actually. We sort of made the point about high frequency traders, and when that really started to proliferate and become popular, that they were effectively sniping right in the same way, and that I kind of joked, there's nothing new under the sun. We just have a technology that makes it easier and faster.

[Dave Weisberger]

Yeah, that's really the point that I was going to add back. I mean, look, I ran an HFT for firm, you know, Two Sigma securities back in the day. And when Flash Boys came out, which is Michael Lewis's book that got big, 60 Minutes, expose, and people were screaming about high frequency traders and made into a bunch of movies, etc. By that point, the market had already corrected, right? By that point, all the exchanges had already done things so that people and we could go into the details and anyone who is really interested in this. I could explain it at, you know, at a level of microscopic detail, but effectively most of the issues were already out of the market at that point. But understand that within a regulated environment it's extremely clear that there will be sea changes in crypto. And what will that mean? That will mean that defi platforms, which are effectively open source and the code is there, are going to have to be set up in a way that there's no inherent advantage that yeah, you might be able to snipe, but it will be public and people will understand it and they're going to want that disclosed. And CEFI platforms are going to have to at some point say be able to have audits that says market makers don't have better access than individuals or if they do, they're paying for it. And it's a very clear level playing field. That sort of anti manipulation, establishing a fair level playing field is a good thing and will increase the ability of the market to raise capital because more people will have faith in it. That is what's going to happen with this administration in the United States. It is absolutely certain that that is what's going to take place. So ultimately what's been going on is long term bullish and in the short run people are seeing, you know, where the issues are. So you know, it's not really all that surprising to see this. And you know, I know that there are people in the, in the cypherpunk methodology is oh, you know, let everybody get what they want, total caveat emptor. But that's just not the way our society works. That's just, it isn't. And you know, we could debate it as ad nauseam, but that's not going to be the result. The result is going to be that participants in the market are going to demand a level playing field, demand that there's nothing that they can't see under the table. Look, the worst example of this was ftx, right, which gave a backdoor to Alameda and people put up with it while they were making money and then as soon as they stopped making money they started throwing shit on Sam because oh my God, how dare you do this. Most of the people who are saying that knew he was doing it and just didn't give a shit. So you know, understand that this is the way the market is going to evolve. And so a lot of the stuff we're seeing as far as Kanye is concerned, I mean, look, yeah, I agree with what you said Scott, violently so. And you know, it's the worst impulses of humanity will always show up. And you will find out if, in fact people want to invest in it in order to try to make money, you know, let them. Most of the time, the worst impulse of the worst impulses result in losses. And so let them lose money. I don't really give a crap. You know, I just don't think that's worth talking about because, you know, it's the kind of thing that I think that Libra and Trump Coin were enough to convince the public that, okay, wait a minute, there's an issue here and what the hell's going on? And so we'll see how the regulators respond, we'll see how the public responds. But that's what I think will happen.

[Scott Melker]

And not to in no way defend it. I think I was one of the most critical people of the Trump Coin when it launched, much to the despair of seemingly everybody in my comments. But it is still at least worth 50. At least. It is still worth like 15 bucks.

[Dave Weisberger]

Well, let's be clear.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, like, if Libra is like a zero, right? This Kanye thing will be a zero, right?

[Dave Weisberger]

Maybe.

[Scott Melker]

I guess my point is if we're taking a silver lining or trying to be optimistic, maybe Trump Coin will have some sort of, who knows, Maybe it.

[Dave Weisberger]

Becomes the next version of, you know, a dogecoin kind of thing that lasts. That's fine. Some number of meme coins will survive in a slightly different state over time. And that is. And so when I look at Pump Fun, what I see is the OTC market. Now, for those who don't know this, the OTC market memorialized in films such as the Wolf of Wall street or Boiler Room, is mostly crap in that market. There's also foreign adrs and stuff, but there's a lot of crap. There are thousands upon thousands of stocks that nobody has heard of. Every once in a while, you get big winners out of that. I absolutely could see Pump Fund continuing to exist forever as that sort of feeding ground where maybe one out of some very large number will succeed in the long run.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, Simon?

[Mario Noel]

Yeah.

[Simon]

I just want to say, like, there is a subtle argument that sometimes people get really confused about around the free market versus calling somebody out for all of their what they're doing in a free market. Like anyone's welcome to launch a meme Coin, but they have to be accountable for everything that they actually do. And it's our duty to call it out for all the bad things we think it is. And so there's a difference between going to a Regulator and saying can you please make sure that it's not possible for anybody to do this versus anybody can do it, but you deserve all the consequences. And we're going to call out scams as much as we can and try and self regulate to a certain degree. I think sometimes people get confused thinking that calling out scams and self regulation and accountability is the same as asking a regulator to make sure that it's not possible and it can't actually happen. Which are two very different concepts.

[Dave Weisberger]

Right. But let's be clear about this. There is a difference. I do not think regulators can make things not possible. And I do think regulators very rarely get on, very rarely focus where they need to focus. But there is a benefit to a consequence. So for example we, so we've now seen how many bankruptcies from, from Kyle and Sue and, and what would have happened if they were considered, if they were, if they had criminal or significant legal consequences to their actions.

[AK]

I heard those guys are insolvent now.

[Dave Weisberger]

Well great. But you know that that's a good thing. But you know, should they have been continued to, allowed to be able to do something like that or.

[Alex]

Dave?

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, I was gonna say. And how their insolvent now makes me laugh because last I checked Three Arrows was still in bankruptcy and owes hundreds of millions of dollars to Voyager and Genesis and others. So how they would have anything left when they were, you know, oh so much money in the first place is laughable structurally.

[Dave Weisberger]

It's not about going, you know, running crying to regulators. It's about having regulators that have the ability to civilly sue people who have extracted money and create a financial disincentive for doing that sort of extraction. Now I believe the SEC takes it way too far and uses that as a club to be sort of like, it's like a protection racket. So I am not a big fan of the way that they have acted in the past and not only under Gensler by the way. I mean they've been like a protection racket for a very long time. So you know, we'll see, you know, what happens under this administration. I think the three commissioners, the three Republicans, I mean Paul Atkins along with Mark and Hester probably agree with my statement, you know, based on past speeches and whatnot. So you know, I'm not nearly as pro regulator as you might think. But what I am saying is there is a version of a world where being able to be prosecuted for fraud, you know, not necessarily criminally, that would actually decrease your capacity to be a recidivist extractor is not a bad thing.

[Alex]

So there's a bunch of studies that have actually been done on crime prevention stuff and this goes all the way up and down the stack from like shoplifting to massive white collar fraud. And the thing that matters the most is not the severity of the punishment, it's the likelihood of getting caught. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that this space has or this, you know, that when we talk about regulators, you know, being able to go after people who are bad actors after they do a thing is we can't. It's very hard to be in a world where you get a thousand new coins created a day. But you're also saying there will be effective like follow up regulation on it. And I think even if like the couple, you know, the two or three absolute largest scam fraud situations do end up getting prosecuted. Ftx Celsius, you know, you could talk about whether the three other guys are really suffering the consequences on it. But I think actually one of the biggest issues there is people don't perceive them as suffering the consequences on it. But unless we can drastically increase the percentage of bad actors who feel like they're who it feels like they are suffering consequences for, and that doesn't necessarily mean criminal prosecution, but just any form of consequence on it, unless you can increase that percentage so that people who are looking at doing something feel that is much more likely they're going to suffer consequences, this is just going to keep happening. And again this is just, it's the exact same problem that you see in a bunch of blue cities who like where it's technically illegal to shoplift, but everyone knows that they're not really going to enforce it. Nobody cares if it's a hundred year sentence if you think it's a 0.0001% chance of getting caught. But if, even if you're just gonna have to give all the money back and it's a 90 chance of getting caught, that's gonna be a lot greater of a deterrence effect.

[Scott Melker]

I can't see any more for some reason. Hands up people had them.

[Simon]

Yeah, this, it's a really tricky conversation. So like there's a massive difference between a centralized company that should have full, you know, accountability to a regulator and audit requirements in order to ensure that client money isn't being used. And there's no paper contracts against it if they're allowed, if they're, you know, if it's full custody, then you've got things like Celsius, which was Being represented as safe as a bank when it was actually an illegal hedge fund with no disclosure and no one knew what they were investing in. So those things are all very clear. But when you start to get down to like at the Meme coin level, clearly there's an issue with Sniper. And how do you start to regulate that whole ability to be sniping? Well, you kind of do it the way the Trump token, at least it was disclosed that there's 80% and it's going to be over a three year unlock. And it's kind of like you then go into that fraud regime of are you lying? Did you say you're going to do what you do? But there are going to be, you know, with meme Coins you've even got the anonymity. There's, there's no even you. You just literally can be anyone and launch these things. So it's an incredibly complex thing and, and I don't think anything's really changed here. It's just the ability to do these things is getting easier and easier and easier. So more and more people are doing them. But I guess that's. It feels like the meme coin thing is going to sit outside and just be fraud allegations and whether they actually lied and stuff. But we'll see.

[Dave Weisberger]

I think that it's important to pull on that thread a bit because Pump Fund has gained critical mass and other firms will may or may not come, but the markets themselves will have critical mass and a light touch regulator where basically you say pump to say to pump dot fund, the actual Pump Fund platform. Like okay, you need to know what the addresses are, if you need to be able to have how the coin works, what the unlock is and all of these statements, the people who make it and if they make it. If you're an issuer, you are liable if in fact you lie. Because all of this stuff is on open blockchains and it can be found out and it's like your probability to use. I think it was, that was Alex, right, who talked about probability of being caught. It didn't show up on my phone. I couldn't tell who was speaking, but I think I recognize the voice. The fact is you can get caught. So the sole question then becomes, will platforms like Pump Fund be allowed in a new regime to have somebody launching a coin without some notion of who they are? Now, I don't want to get dough down the KYC rabbit hole because frankly, I think most of the KYC regulations are absolute bullshit and accomplish nothing of what they're trying to accomplish. But the reality is that there, there needs to be some. If you, if a platform comes around that does meme coins where the people who do it are liable for lying, then that matters. And I think people will have more confidence and I think that platform will win. And this by the same token, if the methodology of sniping is well understood by people, well, you know, so be it. You know, it's, it's not really a problem, is it, if people don't care? You know, at that point, I believe in caveat I'm doing as long as it's well understood and disclosed. The real issue here is when people don't disclose shit, that's what really matters.

[Alex]

I really wish, Dave, that I believed a platform with better like rules and protections and stuff was the thing that was going to win. But I think one of the challenges in this space is that like liquidity is the only thing that matters to people and they will put up with a lot of other stuff or you have to at least be at a sufficient level of liquidity. And a lot of the people who provide that initial liquidity and get things going are the bad actors in the space. And so I think for people who are really trying to do things in a better way, they really in a very difficult spot of how you get over that initial Humphrey without working with these people who are going to ultimately make your platform worse.

[Dave Weisberger]

That's true. There's no doubt that that's true. Liquidity does matter. But a lot of, but a lot of liquidity is comes from confidence in the platform. I mean, I'm reminded, and this sounds like a stupid analogy, but I'm reminded of the fact that the auto industry never wanted to put in safety stuff. They never cared about airbags, they never cared about seat belts, et cetera. And only Volvo was the only car that actually cared. But when Volvo those started selling better, after people started worrying about that, everybody else jumped in. And so eventually people like to say, oh, it's because the US regulation horseshit. What actually happened was safety became something that people prized and cars sold better if they had more safety. I think the same thing is going to be with markets. If you trade in a market, you're less likely to get screwed if you participate in this market. And liquidity will of course come to the one that people have more confidence in. But you're right, it is not trivial. Not trivial. And it is definitely a chicken and egg problem. And we're not sure how.

[Scott Melker]

And Dave, also that could be guard railed in the United States in a specific manner, but still completely, you know, unregulated elsewhere. And knowing that this is a global market, people still be getting smoked all over the world, just maybe slightly less Americans. It's hard to know.

[Dave Weisberger]

Well, I don't know about that. I mean, there's a lot of liquidity here. And I think that a lot of, I mean, if you've talked to the regulators in places like Dubai or some places in Europe who actually care, I think that you'd be surprised. Certainly Singapore, I think you'd be surprised, and Hong Kong, you'd be surprised at how regulators, if they see how you could do it with a light touch, you can make things much safer and advantage good actors, they'll want to do it. The issue is most regulators go way the hell the other direction and try to be prescriptive. And then at that point, you know, fuck it, you know, you're right, it's going to grow. The Wild west is going to continue wherever the Wild west can be.

[Scott Melker]

All right, which is what? Like, you know, you obviously said FTX was the worst example before. We know that FTX was the worst exam, worst example of a lack of regulation in the United States. Right. Which allowed it to operate offshore and do what they did. You talk about that all the time, Dave.

[Dave Weisberger]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, we all know in. John Deaton and I both like to tag team Elizabeth Warren and what she did. But the one thing that is absolutely clear is her regime with Gensler and all the people that she put in throughout all the agencies effectively created many, many more problems for investors than it solved. And it isn't, it's completely, it was completely counterproductive policy and we all know that I can't stand that price. But there is an ELE where you can do things that will improve markets because we've seen it, right? I mean, there is a reason why liquidity. It is not an accident that the US is 4% of the world's population, is 50% of the world's investable assets. It is a reason why foreign companies want to list in the United States. There is a reason. Part of that reason, despite all the bullshit, and there is bullshit, is the US is probably the easiest regulatory environment for companies to get things done. And it's the most competitive regulatory, you know, allows more competition. Now crypto is much more competitive and frankly, the US equity markets could learn a lot from crypto. So, you know, I'm, I'm much more on the side of less prescriptive But I do think that confidence in markets matters, and I think that what we've seen over the last few weeks is literally the most obvious example of why.

[Scott Melker]

Yeah, totally agree, Cena. Go ahead.

[Cena]

Yeah. I'll just add one thing that I think we all need to be a little bit, you know, giving the audience some more cautionary notes about meme coins. You know, we're talking about how to make the meme coin market fair and more regulated so people can gamble better and don't be f. Don't fall prey to extraction. But the whole game is extraction. So if you bought, say, Millay coin, you were hoping to dump it on someone else at a later date. Well, you were lied to, so somebody else dumped on you faster than you could.

[Scott Melker]

Right.

[Cena]

So I understand that there is a lie factor there that could be definitely punished. But even if it's totally honest, if you get dumped on, I just see this as. You lost the game. You entered the game, you knew the rules. Anyone can dump on you at any time. It's just a matter of figuring out the timing. So I'm a lot less. Honestly, I'm a lot less worried about the quote, unquote victims. It was a game, and they lost. But plus, this whole. You know, there's another aspect here that the more successful meme coins are, the less liquidity will be given to projects that are actually trying to do something. So, you know, I'm just a little bit more critical of this whole trend because it siphons liquidity out of real activity. And it's really hard to say what's the benefit of gambling. There's the fun aspect, yes, but it's probably a lot less than other activities in crypto that are trying to build useful utilities. So I. I just think even if regulator doesn't do anything, this is an industry or a subset of the industry that will destroy itself, because the end game of every one of these meme coins is 0, and the end game is fully full extraction. Either it's the main guy who extracts all the money or a bunch of other smart traders or snipers. Somebody extracts money from the others.

[Eduardo]

So.

[Cena]

And then the cost of creating a new coin is almost zero, right? So combine these two, and you see minimal value created, maximal supply. This. This will go away on its own, in my opinion. Maybe like, maybe a minimum kind of a. What can I say, Like a low. Low level of activity will remain over the long run. But it wouldn't be as much of a concern. Concern to even worry too much about. Like, the.

[Mario Noel]

Well, Said speaking of utility, we we do have a a sponsor today. Appreciate everybody joining and just as a disclaimer before we go to to Edward is that Mario's company IBC does marketing, incubation and investing and that sponsors on this show are working with IBC and not necessarily crypto town hall Scott or myself in particular. So Eduardo, just want to get you up here to test your mic. Do you mind just giving an elevator pitch just to kick off the ama.

[Eduardo]

Yeah, thank you very much. I hope that you can hear me very well and I'm really glad that also in this space he's speaking about utility and about project that really do something they are getting back in in the market. And also I like very much the subject of security because what we are building it's. It's a product and ongoing multi chain AI wallet that is focused on security part.

[Mario Noel]

Wonderful. And yeah I can hear you loud and clear. First question is what's the easiest way for someone new to crypto to avoid common scams in your opinion?

[Eduardo]

I think this web3 space needs to to be based on three pillars. One will be the advanced technical defenses that you can implement in one app. The second things will be some robust procedures to mitigate the human error. And the third that is very important is the education and training. So first of all you need to educate your yourself in order to to enter this market. And what we are doing also with with our product we are trying also with our our agent to educate the the people that are coming in this space in order to avoid this kind of scams.

[Mario Noel]

I know that you guys have your pre sale starting tomorrow, right?

[Eduardo]

Yes, our pre sale will start tomorrow. The pre sale will take place on our website on illuminary AI and we hope we'll have a good pre sale and the people will enjoy our product. The product already live. You can download it from Apple Store and Google Play Play and we are really focused on security and with our AI agent maybe we can make this and we are making this space safe for, for the people that are onboarding on it but also for the crypto professional people to say like this.

[Mario Noel]

Is this the first round of financing that you guys are doing or did you raise private financing as well?

[Eduardo]

We finished our seed phase, now we are in the second phase.

[Mario Noel]

How did the seed phase go?

[Eduardo]

The seed phase was 100% completed and we are thinking for our community very fast and now we are advancing to this pre sale and after that at the end of Q1 hoping to to launch our token and also to Develop furthermore our product because we are launching a V2 version in the end of Q2 with a lot of AI features including talking with our AI and also keeping you more and more safe.

[Mario Noel]

With the token the pre sale going live tomorrow I want to kind of dive a bit deeper into that. How exactly is the token used within the product?

[Eduardo]

In the product the the token has has a lot of utilities because we are using a gamification system inside our wallet using a framework is called Octalysis made by Yukaichow and also used by by big brands in the in the industry also in web two like Nike and so on. So in in order to benefit from our ecosystem and having the elemented token you'll have you'll enjoy our our space like having discounts or having the possibility to invest in some some projects that will be in our in our wallet. Because it's not just a wallet, it's a one stop shop as we like to call it in which you can manage your crypto assets but also you can invest, you can educate yourself and also you can build communities.

[Mario Noel]

Wonderful. And what is breg B R E G I see that on the materials.

[Eduardo]

Yes. BRAG is our AA agent so I know that now is the hype with AI and so on. We started this project two years ago and we implemented this AI agent because we, we thought that will be wonderful to have your own mentor in your pocket. So we have break from Blockchain Resource Educational guide that it's your mentor that will how we like to say, illuminate your pet into our ecosystem. So he, he will guide you, he will educate you and also he will make some tasks for, for you. For example, in the v2 version you can talk with him and say break send one Ethereum to a contact person. He is set up. He will set up all the steps for your transaction and you just need to to sign this is it. So we'll make your life very very easy.

[Mario Noel]

Do you think that. I know in crypto I've been in it since about 2016 and people have always complained about the, the onboarding process. It's difficult to set up a wallet. People aren't necessarily familiar with needing to remember a password forever. They're they're familiar with just being able to reset that whenever they can. Do you think that an AI agent is really that UI UX layer that that everybody's kind of been been needing to onboard to crypto?

[Eduardo]

To be honest, we were. We are focused very much in the UxCI part of the things because we believe that making a wallet very simple. For example, the onboarding system also we have guided voice onboarding system. So when you are downloading our app, you have a guided V is translated in nine languages so the user can understand all the steps needed. So with our AI it's I think it's the next UX UI because for example, you are a newcomer, you don't know what it's a gas fee, you get an error. What you do, you search on the Internet or you, you call the we, you, you engage with the, with the customer support in our ecosystem, you just tap on the error and our AI system will explain what is a gas fee, why you get this error and so on. So I think for onboarding, but also for user experience, it's very important to have this AI guided system.

[Mario Noel]

And with beginners like I know that once they're all set up with a wallet, they've funded a wallet, it can be difficult for them to actually choose which tokens they want to get involved in. Is the AI agent also going to help them choose which tokens to pick or maybe how to create a portfolio for themselves?

[Eduardo]

So inside our ecosystem we don't give financial advices, but we inform you about for example the market. We have news that we are analyzing with AI and we can say what type of token will be affected by that news, if it's bad news or good news. But also we have some labels in which we can say based on some metrics like volatility news and so on, if in that time a high risk, medium risk of buying one token. So we try to get more information to the user in the same app so they don't get very, very confused. So I think building up a portfolio using our system is more easy because you have all the data needed. Also you have the AI that you can speak with him and you get and educate yourself regarding the market, regarding the news, regarding the volatility trending and so on.

[Mario Noel]

In terms of security, what's the biggest security benefit that everyday users can have using your product?

[Eduardo]

First of all, our product is already audited by Cyberscope. We have a cybersecurity audited on our token. But also we have on our app itself the main feature that we have. We have an anti drainer system based with AI for the moment it's working on EVM what this AI system is doing. So before you are signing a transaction, we can simulate that transaction, we can analyze with AI based on multiple factors and we can see the outcome of that, that transaction and we can see exactly if it's a drainer or not. So after that we put a notification to you in which we advise not to sign that transaction. So I think this is a game changer for the users that maybe they are connected to, to the app and without knowing, just sign one transaction and all your funds are gone. So we're using our system break, it's securing your. Your transaction.

[Mario Noel]

Wonderful. I mean that, that's pretty cool. I know that I'm a developer myself and all transactions that I do I'm trying to simulate, but for an end user having the benefit of an AI agent being able to tell them what happened on a simulation, what they're signing, things like that, that's a, a huge leap forward. And I just want to call out to the audience as well. We just now got the luminary AI X account up into a speaker spot. So encourage everyone to click on on their account, give them a follow. But also as we're going through the am, the ama, their website is right there in their bio. So it's a Luminary AI. So if anyone wants to to check it out, please do so. But Edward, one other question that I had is based on your last answer. Are there other ways that the product is very much differentiated from other AI crypto platforms?

[Eduardo]

Yes. Also. Also this product is built with security in mind. So what you are doing in our ecosystem, we try to curate everything, including for example the DAPPS part that is created by us. And we are creating what we call the app Store. So in order that our user, when they are connecting directly from our wallet to the app, we know that it's very, very secure. Also what we are building more, it's because now we are a mobile app, as I told you on Android and also on iOS, we are building desktop version, standalone desktop version and not browser extension because of the risk that has the browser extensions in which we are creating a very secure environment in order to sign any transactions to connect to the apps and so on. So combining these parts, the friendly, the UX ui, the security part and also the smart part, we are creating an ecosystem and one stop shop that is for the user. And for the moment we have more than 100,000 people that benefits from our ecosystem.

[Mario Noel]

Is that the number of users that you guys have 100,000 users already?

[Eduardo]

Yes, yes, this is in our ecosystem. This is the number of users and attraction that we have and we are hoping to onboard the next millions of people inside our app.

[Mario Noel]

Wow. Congrats on the success thus far. That's a big number in web3. And if people are just tuning in now, Edward said at the top of the AMA that the, the, the pre sale is tomorrow. It's going to be on the official website. So if you click on the Illuminary AI account, their official website is in their, their bio there. Is there anything else, Edward, as we're wrapping up, that you want to highlight about the pre sale?

[Eduardo]

Yeah, so the pre sale will, will start tomorrow like you said on, on our website. I think now the users have the chance also to invest in one product that it's already built, already available and with some technical, very strong technical background. So I think like you said in this space, maybe the people will start also looking at this kind of project.

[Mario Noel]

It's.

[Eduardo]

Now because of this meme thing.

[Mario Noel]

Yeah, I think that, I think you're right. I think that the. I know I'm exhausted from the meme coin winter that we're seeming to be having here and I say winter just due to the seasonality and I'm ready to get back to the utility and real builders and, and real chains rather than the, the casino. So I certainly share that sentiment.

[Eduardo]

Yeah, also I share this and also I'm for more than 10 years in this industry. So yeah, I, I get this feeling. I think it's the, the craziest part of, from this time, from the beginning that I started. So yeah, I hope that will, will come a little bit the, the things in, in this direction.

[Mario Noel]

Let's hope. Well, Eduardo, I appreciate you joining today and also the Illuminary account, if you're tuning in, make sure to give them both a follow as well as all the speakers that have been up here. Any final calls to action for the listeners who are tuning in?

[Eduardo]

Edward, join our pre sale tomorrow, Follow us on our Telegram Instagram Twitter account and join the financial revolution with AI and security in mind. Thank you very much for having us today.

[Mario Noel]

Thanks for joining. That was awesome. And a bit of a red day on Monday here, but some optimism in the market. So let's keep our fingers crossed Monday and the rest of the week that we can end February on a strong note and get into March and have a greener March. So I appreciate everybody joining, of course, you as well, Edward. Everyone have a great Monday and a wonderful rest of the week.

[Eduardo]

Great Monday. Thank you.