Paxos Accidentally Mints 300 TRILLION In Stablecoins | CryptoTownHall

Summary

The Wolf Of All Streets Podcast

Episode: Paxos Accidentally Mints 300 TRILLION In Stablecoins | CryptoTownHall
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Scott Melker

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Scott Melker and a panel of industry experts dissect several major stories shaking the crypto and broader financial sectors. The headline event—the accidental minting of $300 trillion in stablecoins by Paxos—acts as a springboard for conversations about stablecoin risk, industry reputation, regulatory scrutiny, and the broader narratives shaping crypto and traditional assets. The panel also delves into U.S. government Bitcoin seizures resulting from pig butchering scams, the correlation between Bitcoin, gold, and equities, and the current dynamics (and contradictions) of crypto market cycles.

With recurring themes of technological optimism tempered by caution and self-critique, this episode gives listeners a front-row seat to the evolving culture, opportunities, and existential challenges within the crypto industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Paxos’ $300 Trillion “Minting Accident”

[03:22]

• What Happened?

  • Paxos accidentally minted $300 trillion in stablecoin PYUSD due to a fat-finger error during an internal transfer. The error was immediately caught and the tokens burned.
  • Scott jokes about the situation, highlighting how such mistakes challenge trust:

    “Why do we need to get rich with bitcoin? If we can mint 300 trillion in stablecoins, we can mint 300 trillion in stable coins.” – Scott [03:22]

• Risks & Reputational Damage

  • Discussion centers on how such events—despite being fixed swiftly—pose existential questions about stablecoins’ supposed 1:1 backing and the robustness of internal controls.

  • Dan (policy expert) calls it a “clown show,” lamenting the PR nightmare:

    “It's a clown show. I mean it doesn't help the case of all the great work we did with the Genius Act… It looks pretty stupid. And again, it doesn't help our cause.” – Dan [05:19]

  • Others compare the mistake to similar blunders in legacy finance, stressing the universality of human error—but also how such headlines fuel stablecoin skeptics (“Tether truthers”).

    “It happens in the FIAT world as well... but I agree, it makes us look stupid and it gives sucker to the tether truthers.” – Dan Clark [06:27]

  • Despite this, there is consensus on Paxos' solid reputation and immediate remediation, but Scott underlines the systemic risk:

    “There should be systems in place that shouldn't even make it possible.” – Scott [05:57]

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2. Reputation, Regulation, & the Cluster of Mistakes

[07:32]

• Industry’s “Own-Goal” Tendency

  • Panel bemoans how, just as crypto gains momentum, a cluster of errors (liquidations, empty order books, accidental mints) seem to “shoot the industry in the foot.”

    “…when we finally have tailwinds to, you know, load the shotgun, aim it at our foot and fire.” – Scott [07:32]

• Stablecoins, Messaging, and the “Pig Butchering” Scandal

  • Dan details the real-world fallout of crypto-related scams, especially romance scams (“pig butchering”), and how advocacy groups like the AARP are pressuring regulators.

    “The pig butchering problem is a serious, serious problem for the reputation of the industry up here in Washington and globally… They're targeting elderly.” – Dan [10:20]

  • The DOJ’s seizure of over 127,000 BTC ($15-30 billion) as proceeds from these scams draws skepticism about U.S. jurisdiction and victim restitution.

    “How is it the DOJ's jurisdiction and the United States is money when a Chinese national uses a Cambodian sweatshop to scam mostly non Americans?” – Scott [09:05]
    “So if I get this right, a Chinese national using a Cambodian sweatshop stole bitcoin from a grandma in France. And now that bitcoin belongs to America.” – Dan Clark [13:59]

  • Panel underscores irony: bitcoin’s transparency makes it uniquely findable for restitution, yet the victims rarely recover funds.

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3. Market Structure, Policy, and Macro Backdrop

[12:42], [13:18]

• Cycle of Regulation and Market Behavior

  • There’s concern that regulatory overreach, especially in light of high-profile gaffes, could “send the industry backwards”—stifling innovation while failing to address root problems.

  • Kelly:

    “We know when regulators get involved, it just kind of sends it backwards yet again.” [13:20]

• Defi Legislation and Policy Tone

  • Skepticism towards new legislative proposals, described as “completely backwards from where we want the industry to go.”
  • Continued scrutiny on bad actors (like SBF’s rumored “redemption” tactics) underscores narratives of reputational risk.

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4. Correlation Between Crypto, Gold, and Traditional Assets

[16:46]

• Macro Risks and Correlations

  • Mike McGlone shares macro data: gold is having its best year since 1979; stock market valuations are “scary.”

    “Gold having the best year since 1979 ...Stock market cap to GDP at the highest in 100 years… Gold is just plain scary.” – Mike McGlone [16:46]

  • Volatility is historically low, but any uptick in VIX (volatility index) could trigger widespread risk-off selling in stocks and then in crypto, which Mike describes as the “tip of the iceberg.”

    “If we just hit a few stops... the whole crypto space is going to lose 20 to 30% in a heartbeat.” – Mike [23:01]

• Bitcoin-Gold/Nasdaq Correlation

  • Discussion about the shifting correlation: Bitcoin was once more aligned with gold, now it often trades more like a risk asset correlated with equities.

    “Crypto was more correlated directionally with gold… Now, it tends to be more correlated… with the stock market.” – Ajit [31:28]

  • But the narrative is shifting back toward Bitcoin as “digital gold,” especially in light of institutional endorsement (BlackRock, Morgan Stanley, Paul Tudor Jones).

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5. Institutional Narratives and "Alt Season"

[30:12]

• Public Market Adjacent Crypto Exposure

  • Many major moves in public equities (Nvidia, miners) mean institutions can get “alt season” style returns without buying small cap crypto.

    “That’s because there's an alt season happening in crypto adjacent public equities...the real money doesn't need to buy altcoins to participate in that anymore.” – Scott [30:12]

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6. Bubble Talk: Treasury Companies and Tokenization

[38:53], [44:56]

• Tom Lee’s Contrarian Take

  • Panel reacts to Bitmind chair Tom Lee claiming “the bubble has burst” in digital asset treasury companies.
    • Question: Is he saying the opportunity is over, or is it a call for more selectivity?

      “Maybe what he's saying is, hey, the damage is done. You know, I mean, that's kind of the way I read it.” – Gary [41:54]

• Tokenization’s Inevitable Rise

  • BlackRock, Eric Trump, others signal that tokenization of real-world assets (RWAs) is the next major narrative, with stablecoins seen as the “first and best example.”

    “Tokenization is the next narrative regardless...stablecoins are just the first and best example of tokenizing real world assets.” – Scott [44:56]

  • Mike (on tech):

    “The technology is amazing. This is something we both completely agreed on. I just, you know, just like the Internet was and we all knew it had a bubble and it corrected but oh yeah, it's just the key thing...” – Mike [45:32]

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7. Outlook & Final Thoughts

[47:10]

• Macro-Cynicism vs. Market Optimism

  • Final comments toggle between warnings of a coming correction/crash—possibly across all assets—and optimism about technological and capital market shifts.

    “...it feels like the market, they're going to push the market to run hot and a lot of people waiting for that big correction are just getting positioned worse...” – Kelly [47:10]

• Exit Strategies

  • Panelists agree that your exit plan (what you rotate into during turbulent markets) is more important than ever.

  “If you're an art and bitcoin believer, you exit into bitcoin even if you think it's going to go down because you're holding forever…” – Scott [48:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |---------|---------|-------| | 03:22 | Scott | “Why do we need to get rich with bitcoin? If we can mint 300 trillion in stablecoins...”| | 05:19 | Dan | “It's a clown show... It looks pretty stupid. And again, it doesn't help our cause.”| | 06:27 | Dan Clark | “It happens in the FIAT world as well...it makes us look stupid and it gives sucker to the tether truthers.”| | 10:20 | Dan | “The pig butchering problem is a serious, serious problem for the reputation of the industry up here in Washington and globally...”| | 13:59 | Dan Clark | “So if I get this right, a Chinese national using a Cambodian sweatshop stole bitcoin from a grandma in France. And now that bitcoin belongs to America.”| | 16:46 | Mike | “Gold having the best year since 1979 ...Stock market cap to GDP at the highest in 100 years… Gold is just plain scary.”| | 23:01 | Mike | “If we just hit a few stops... the whole crypto space is going to lose 20 to 30% in a heartbeat.”| | 30:12 | Scott | “That’s because there's an alt season happening in crypto adjacent public equities...”| | 44:56 | Scott | “Tokenization is the next narrative regardless...stablecoins are just the first and best example of tokenizing real world assets.”|

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• 00:00–03:17 – Banter, show setup, technical platform humor
• 03:22–07:32 – The Paxos $300 Trillion Minting Error: Incident, implications, roundtable reactions
• 08:02–13:59 – Reputation risks, pig butchering scam, DOJ Bitcoin seizures, regulatory consequences
• 16:33–26:42 – Macro markets: gold, equity volatility, Bitcoin cycles, institutions, gold vs. BTC debate
• 30:12–34:43 – Alt season in equities; institutional “digital gold” narratives
• 38:53–46:58 – “Bubble” in treasuries, tokenization as the new frontier
• 47:10–49:20 – Final macro warnings, exit strategies, and closing remarks

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Conclusion

This episode blends humor, insider knowledge, and hard-hitting market analysis. The Paxos minting debacle functions as a microcosm for crypto’s biggest challenges: rapid innovation outpacing security, the slow grind of regulatory acceptance, and the ever-present tension between market potential and collective self-sabotage. The conversation’s macro threads reinforce that crypto’s fate is increasingly entwined with the world of Wall Street and global finance, yet retains its own unique mix of risk, reward, and irreverence.

Big themes:

• Human error and system design in high-stakes finance
• Reputational vulnerabilities of crypto—both real and narrative-driven
• Macro risks and inter-asset correlations (gold, stocks, bitcoin)
• The next phase: tokenization of real-world assets
• Enduring optimism for blockchain’s technological future, tempered by macro wariness

Best for: Listeners seeking an unvarnished, deeply informed, and often wry perspective on the current crossroads for crypto and traditional finance.

Transcript

[A]

Good morning, everybody. We apologize for the late start. This is attempt number three at launching A spaces today. The last two completely crashed the minute that we launched them and tried to invite guests yesterday. You may remember such greatest hits on X Spaces as Scott tried to talk for the first three minutes and it was completely silent and we sat here awkwardly. That was a pretty good moment. Every day a new adventure on the world's best forum to have a conversation that happens to be the world's worst technological platform for doing so. But here we are. Hopefully we will not get rubbed once again and we've got another great show, I'm sure. I see guests are getting dropped to listeners as we speak. I don't even know who's on stage. Flying completely blind here. I see Adam, Dan, Lou and Ajit on stage. Is that correct? But Mike confirm.

[B]

We can hear you, bro. We can hear you.

[C]

You're here, man.

[A]

Yeah, we got you. Adam, I literally like, you're invited pretty much every day just for the very least. You're wonderful and I love your perspective, but at least you throw some emojis at me and don't leave me here hanging.

[D]

Scott, I understand that there's job offers out at cbs, buddy.

[A]

If.

[D]

If.

[A]

I was thinking about going and taking a job at cnn, but if CBS is offering, you know, I could go there too.

[D]

You're most certainly going to need some.

[A]

Talent here pretty soon if they continue to exist. I. I would say that platforms like this are going to eventually replace them, I can tell you. We're going to build something that we're going to certainly try working on that very actively at the moment. I just get. Gary, I gotta show you, man. I gotta. Since we're local, I gotta show you the new studio I built, man.

[D]

Bro, why don't you invite me out, man?

[A]

It's not, you know, it's actually some of the guys that were. Worked with you before helping to set that all up. But I just letting people run with it and I'm gonna show up when we can actually hit record, you know, but it's sick. And you're gonna be there hopefully every day with me. We're just gonna chop it up, shoot stuff, you know, blast it out into the Internet and destroy CBS and cnn, dude.

[D]

Take them over.

[A]

That's right. I like it that. That's the idea. You know, it seems this isn't a crypto town hall topic, but it seems like it's doable.

[D]

It is.

[A]

You and I are the plat. I mean, you and I are the type of People to take moonshots certainly generally. But I mean it's doable. Not, not replace the. My idea here is that like the studio that I've built out is a full. It looks like a cnbc. It can look like a CNBC or Fox Business News desk. I had you know, a 12 by 7 LED screen that I spent way too much money on. So we can be shooting on the moon or in Times Square or wherever. But you know, built a proper desk. Oh, I have to make it look familiar.

[D]

I probably have a piece of equipment that I could give you that you will love. Big 70 inch write board, you know, electronic board you can write on.

[A]

Oh hell yeah. I need that. Okay, bring that over. Yeah, but the idea being. And you know, when are you going.

[D]

To make me rich with bitcoin though man? Let's talk about how you're going to get rich with bitcoin because these guys.

[A]

Why do we need to get rich with bitcoin? If we can mint 300 trillion in stablecoins, we can mint 300 trillion in stable coins.

[D]

Let's go there.

[A]

So this happened. For anybody who didn't see the title, it's right up above. Yesterday at 3:12pm Paxos mistakenly minted XSPU PyUSD which I'm sorry I have the mind of a 17 year old boy from the 80s but every time I see that I do not read it as PySD. Anyways, as part of an internal transfer Paxos immediately identified the error and burned the XS USD. I'm going to call it P pusd. Anyways, so they, we have the genius act and we obviously have stablecoin issuers and obviously this was rectified immediately and $300 trillion didn't hit the market. But it does beg the question if these are supposed to be one for one backed, how is there even a mechanism where you can YOLO accidentally print $300 trillion? Seems like a problem. You know bro, at the end of.

[B]

The day you're tying, this is a real world asset, right? This is like in theory you're tying a US dollar right, which lives in a bank or somewhere to online. And this is, this is the problem with all real world assets. It's trust me bro, situation. I mean it's just, it's. There's nothing that solves that. Yeah, well you would think that there.

[A]

Could be a mechanism that restricts minting to the amount of assets held somewhere to back them. Like you, you can't just accidentally add a zero. But I, I Just was unaware that you could fat finger non existent money that's unbacked if you're one of these regulated now platforms for stablecoins. I mean Dan, I've got you here, luckily. Is this the kind of like is this just haha, like whatever or is this one of those things where you're sitting on Capitol Hill and you're like damn it, I have to explain some more. Crypto stupidity.

[C]

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's. It's a clown show. I mean it doesn't certainly help the case of all the great work we did with the genius act. I mean, Fat finger, that's kind of funny. I haven't really looked into this too closely. I've just been seeing it on X. It's a high level to look for. It looks pretty stupid. And again, it doesn't help our cause. We don't work with Paxos directly, you know, we work closely with Circle, Athena, some of the other issuers. So I don't know. I mean, I think there's enough problems in this town right now. The good news is, I suppose a lot of them aren't even showing up to see the news. We're at day 16, 17 of the shutdown now, but when, you know, when they come back, this isn't going to help.

[A]

Okay, what's this? I don't want to pivot too hard. So listen, Paxos is a wonderful company. They've done great stuff. This is obviously like somebody hit the wrong button and you know, and I think if it this thing is possible, people are going to make mistakes. That's why I'm speaking to sort of the systems in place that shouldn't even be possible. Right. I think that's what. Oh, Dan, you're on stage. I just saw your hand up. Go up. Dan, are you on stage?

[E]

Yeah. You keep.

[F]

Other than me, Dan Clark.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[F]

I keep getting acceptance so I want to put my end up show I'm here. Anyway, just to chime in, there was a case in Germany a few years ago where a woman fell asleep as she was typing the numbers in for a transfer and transferred something like 6 billion euros to an account. If you Google it, that will come up. So it exists in the, in the FIAT world as well. She literally fell asleep as she was typing the buttons apparently, and sent an insane amount of money. So it happens in the FIAT world, but I agree it makes us look stupid and it gives sucker to the tether truthers.

[C]

I mean they immediately, I mean they fixed it. And again, PayPal's got a great reputation still up here, too. The Py. Scotta cracked up at that.

[A]

Go ahead, say it out loud, Dan.

[C]

The Pussy Stablecoin. How would we call it that? Yeah, no, it's, it's funny. I think it's. PayPal's still got a great reputation again. And they fixed Pexos. I would say they're. They're definitely one of the best stablecoin issuers. I mean, they got a great reputation. Stupid mistake, it seems like, but I think there's other issues to worry about.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, but it's just that we go through these phases of our, in our industry of it's like clustered stupid mistakes. Right. So, yeah, I know this is kind of probably a nothing burger for you, Dan, or anyone out there, but, like, in the same week that we have 19 billion in liquidations and we have engines firing into empty order books on exchanges around the world, it just seems like we have this tendency when we finally have tailwinds to, you know, load the shotgun, aim it at our foot and fire.

[C]

And on top of that, too. I just want to bring up this. We'll probably get into it later, but this ridiculous narrative now about sbf, I mean, this is the last thing that we need to be talking about right now. Yeah.

[A]

What's going on there?

[C]

This, this list, this charmed offensive, somebody's running for him. That's the last thing we need to be focused on Washington. So I'm hoping that this blows over too, because it's, it's absolutely not helpful.

[A]

I mean, what's the angle there? Is he trying to go on the redemption tour?

[C]

I would love to see if somebody can fill me in on this because we're, we're, we saw it, we're looking at it. And, you know, I don't know if he's hired P. Diddy's camera crew to, like, kind of help him with this, but I don't think he's going to get a pardon. There's no way. Absolutely. It would be preposterous if he got a pardon, considering especially Trump, of all people. You know, he's certainly not in that camp. But I'm keeping my eye on it. I'm trying to see who's behind this, if he's hired some major lobbyists of some sort. But if anybody has any intel. Yeah, I'm all ears.

[A]

Yeah. We also have the pig butchering scandal this week. Right. So we've got a lot of kind of, kind of big ones going on. Let Me ask you about that, Dan, and then we'll open everything to the panel. So that's 127,000 bitcoin for those who missed it. The DOJ basically has recovered. We'll call it 127,000 in Bitcoin that was used in a pig butchering scam in Cambodia coordinated by a Chinese national. To my understanding, they had basically sweat farms, you know, like sweatshops in Cambodia where they were pig butchering, which means to like find a victim and slaughter the pig. Right. So like I'm your online girlfriend, I'm sad and I need $30,000. All these things just scamming people around the world to the tune of 15 or 30 or something billion dollars. How many catfish are out there that can be scammed for that much money? The national is still on the run with 1.8 billion in their account. And somehow this is the question I have for you, Dan. How is it the DOJ's jurisdiction and the United States is money when a Chinese national uses a Cambodian sweatshop to scam. Damn mostly non Americans around the world.

[C]

Well, I just want to point out though that this is the pig butchering problem is a serious, serious problem for the reputation of the industry up here in Washington and globally. The aarp, for those of you who don't know, it's the American association of Retired People. It's a very, very powerful group up here in Washington. They've hired some folks on their staff to begin somewhat of an offensive against the cryptocurrency industry and ATM industry because of this topic. They're targeting elderly. The romance scams overwhelmingly target senior citizens that are not very tech forward. We've all seen it. These people, they go to random gas stations to feed these ATM money for bitcoin and they pay to a scammer and they're butchered. It's a romance scam and it's big butchering. So there's a big messaging problem and the ATM companies really need to work on that messaging problem too, because it's not helping their situation out. But it was a huge $30 million.

[A]

A day, making $30 million a day.

[C]

CBS, CNN, they had this documentary on the whole thing like just two nights ago. So it's getting a little bit more mainstream coverage now. But the, the, the funds that the DOJ seized, I think it was like 133,000 bitcoins, give or take a huge amount. Yeah, I, I think that goes back to the conversation around funding a bitcoin strategic reserve without having to worry about, you know, know. Yeah, procuring.

[A]

We're a third of the way to a million bitcoin.

[C]

I, I think we're probably one of the largest nation state holders now, if I'm not mistaken if that. I got, I got to check on that, but I, I think we probably are.

[A]

Now, we haven't gotten that final audit, but chain analysis, I think said today it was. We have 320, 330,000 Bitcoin on the United States balance sheet, and we didn't have to buy a single one of them. But I still don't understand how there's our money. So imagine this is the same with the Bitfinex coins, which are holding like, imagine a, A thief comes into my house and steals my wife's wedding ring, and then the police find that person, they get the ring back, and then say the ring is theirs and not mine. How is this different? Yeah, bro, I don't know.

[B]

It's literally. It popped up on the timeline yesterday for me. How is it that these grandmas who lost their money don't get their money back? Like, how is that even possible? That the US Government just keeps it and doesn't redistribute it back to the, the people who were scammed? I don't get it, man.

[G]

Well, especially when you consider it's all on chain, so you could realistically, better than any property in history, see exactly where it came from and who is holding it, holding it before. There's no, no excuse there. But to, to Scott's point earlier, it's a very sort of focused time right now where we're seeing, you know, the hypothetical very bullish landscape for the crypto industry. And at the same time, we get the, the new proposal from the Democrats regarding the defi legislation, which is just completely backwards from where we want the industry to go.

[H]

And we hope that people don't consider that.

[G]

But at the same time, we're seeing, in the course of the matter of the last seven days, five, six or seven things that just make everything go into question about looking deep, not deeper into the books, but looking at it in more regulatory heavy ways than I think people want. On the one hand, we need positive and empowering regulation. On the other hand, we know when regulators get involved, it just kind of sends it backwards yet again.

[A]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I just cannot comprehend how that has anything to do with the doj. Like, where does the jurisdiction of the DOJ end? Does anybody know?

[F]

So if I get this right, a Chinese national using a Cambodian sweatshop stole bitcoin from a grandma in France. And now that bitcoin belongs to America.

[A]

Correct. Yeah. By the way, so does the Gulf of Mexico. In case you're wondering, that's now the Gulf of America too.

[F]

So does, so does the moon.

[A]

Right.

[F]

You remember that Futurama show the Moon belongs to America? That just has it.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

There's two kinds of countries those use a metric system. Those have been to moon.

[G]

Does anybody know what process they use to actually get the keys and the seed phrases and such? Because that's another thing that kind of really stands out to me. Regardless of if the US should remain custodian, how did we actually get access? What leverage was actually applied to actually secure those Bitcoin into U.S. custody? Because, I mean, I can't imagine somebody outside the system is going to get some sort of legal pressure. It's like, you better hand these over. You're going to be in jail. It's like, well, that's, you know, billion, tens of billions of dollars that was just taken. It's. It seems.

[A]

But I think the person's on the run, Kelly. Like that. I, I saw today that they still control a wallet and they haven't. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but there was like a $1.8 billion still controlled by the wallet. Maybe they're not on the run, but they still have $1.8 billion.

[C]

Yeah, they have $15 billion right now worth of in the US custody from that guy from the Z. His name was that held. Held him in his wallets. They've seized those. But that's only a little more than half, I think, of the total.

[A]

That's right. So that's where the 30 billion number that they'd earned. I just can't. How do you scam $30 billion from average people?

[E]

What.

[A]

How big is this sweatshop?

[C]

Well, if you read the article, the guy, he. He basically had a slave compound. From what I gather, he beat people, he tortured people to compel them. There's photos of. It's pretty sick stuff. But yeah.

[F]

I think they got 30 billion by getting bitcoin when it was valued lower.

[A]

Right.

[F]

I think a lot of that 30.

[A]

Billion is going 127,000 Bitcoin, Dan, that they've already seen.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

There's 250,000. We're talking about like an actual percentage, more than 1% of the supply of Bitcoin for the 30 billion. Right?

[F]

Yeah, you're right. I was just trying to point explanation to the 30 billion. But yeah, even in raw bitcoin numbers. That's insane.

[A]

Yeah, I'm just trying to really process the magnitude of it. Anybody else, any more comments on pig butchering or Paxos before we move on to just generally discussing the market? McGlone, I got you here. We're about, we're about to hang out tomorrow, Mike.

[E]

That's going to be fun. Looking forward to it.

[A]

Yeah, Mike and I are doing at the Money show in Orlando. We're doing a live market Mavericks tomorrow afternoon in Orlando. It's going to be awesome. And maybe you can give us a preview of what you're going to tell me there.

[E]

Well, you know, you know the stuff I talk about, I'm, I'm. And sometimes it's, it's scary when I can make factual statements about markets like gold having the best year since 1979 and you know, stock market cap to GDP at the highest in 100 years and the excessive speculation who I've seen in, you know, things like cryptos that are just reverting a little bit and then I talk, talk about simple things like moon reversion, I find extraordinarily scary. But for now, I think one thing I did see, it was nice to see one of the first signs of what, you know, when I saw the, the poly market expectations that bitcoin's going to drop to 95,000. Like, oh, finally something little bullish. Because that's the key thing you see, I see in this space is when you, when, you know, my spidey senses really kicked in at the end of last year. I love that quote from you, Scott, that this was towards the end of a bull cycle and I still stick with that for all risk assets and cryptos at the leading end of that. And that obviously tilted me over to gold and bonds. Now bonds have only started kicking in a little bit, but gold is just plain scary. I mean if you take a 40, 50, 60 month moving average and people would say it's like 18 standard deviations above levels, you'd have to go back to 1981 or 2011 for how extreme it is. It's just plain scary. I'm really concerned what this might mean. So putting in shorter term, I still think, you know, we can finally get the Vix above 20. But the thing is, just a couple weeks ago, 90 day volatility in S P500 bottomed from its lowest level in five years. So. And it's still half the level the Vix. So just catching up, the Vix is normal and I think we're all on Tender hooks. Right now we look at things that it's, it's that time of year when years can happen in months. And the risks are, all we all know is just what happened last week and just hitting a few stops, kicking the algos and you run through stops in the market, everybody's just sitting here watching that. Stock market has to stay up is the way I see it right now. And I look at the 10 year note, it's just bouncing on 4%. It's bouncing there, it has to stay above 4%. And there's one thing Keith, and it can make it go lower. And I look at the tip of the iceberg and that's cryptos. And where the tip of cryptos is microstrategy. Microstrategy is already bear market. Look at its 200 day moving average. So to me everything's happening now, even that like bitcoin to gold ratio. And the good news is it's back down to near support around 25. But the last time it got to this level, you know, 90 day volatility and the stock market was running 28%. Now it's 10%. So you got to hope the stock market goes up from here. And I look at things like the gold silver ratio, it's back down at 80. It's, it's really good support typically supposed to buy it from there. So I look at this next few months as ideal again I think it's an ideal year for traders and if we just start hitting a few stops here, it might get somewhat exponential and that's my worry. Stock market has to go up or everything's tilting lower and cryptos at the leading edge of that.

[A]

Mike, I'm not sure if you're paying attention but last Friday, if you're talking about some stops have to get hit, our crypto exchanges went ahead and took out all the stops everywhere all at once.

[E]

That's my point is people are, I enjoyed reading an article and people pointing out it's past tense. I mean like I, I, you know, just having been in pits and seen stops and being with customers when they get stops, I, I look at it as, yeah, that was nothing compared to okay, we had a 3% down day in S P500. Way overdue. Everything's bounced back up. You get that s P500 to say drop 5% from the highs and you're going to see some real stops. That's just me. We just saw a little sense of what happens when you know, the tide goes out and the tide is back up that, that's my cure serious thing here. So also I'll put in some of the anecdotal. I look at that Bloomberg Galaxy crypto index up 30% on the year. Now it's up about 9% and it's just hovering near, I think, hitting some more stops. And that's again, here's the thing I think about cycles. When I initially proposed this index in 2017, I'm like, we got to get an index distracted space. It was, you know, most of the people, Bloomberg had no clue what it was. I'm like, we got to get an index. It works great and now it's really lagging and same thing. One thing that happened this week in the chat, we have a finance and crypto chat. I proposed the same thing in 2017. We got to get a chat in the space and they would not let me do just a crypto chat because most of them didn't understand it. So they had to do fintech and crypto. Now, obviously it's all crypto. But in that chat this week there was a headline from a story that said Trump emerges as the eighty hundred eight hundred seventy million dollar bitcoin whale amid historic crypto market meltdown. And this is what really struck me is now back then when you bought and invested in crypto, which a lot of us did and enjoyed, you were kind of pushing against the government. You knew everybody hated it and it was your way to say get it to the ye getting out of the system. Now, if you're buying bitcoin cryptos, not only you are somewhat potentially supporting the Trump administration, but you're also dependent on the Trump administration. The world's changed and that's why I look at it as this place is just maybe we'll get lucky. But if we just hit a few stops to say the S&P 500 drops 5%, I think the whole crypto space is going to lose 20 to 30% in a heartbeat.

[A]

Eric Trump yesterday said when asked, or at least the article came out today, I don't know if he actually said it yesterday, that they made over a billion dollars in crypto as a family. What was the story that you saw about Trump specifically? I didn't see that one.

[E]

I, I will post it. I can send it to you. It was on coin grape. It's actually on the Bloomberg terminal. Bloomberg disseminates a lot of these things and it just, it said the highlights report shows Trump owns $870 billion million dollars in Bitcoin even as crypto market crashed. Bitcoin. $2 billion in Bitcoin. Yes. Sorry. The 2 billion dollar Bitcoin acquisition by Trump Media is the biggest break out of its social platform origins. The crypto fortune of Trump is boosted by bitcoin price gains. This is just, I think it's quite.

[A]

Interesting, Mike, when you dig into that though, when you, you talk about the sheer numbers and we, we mentioned this when they announced obviously that djt that they were going to buy bitcoin with their treasury and start Treasury. But even the Trumps who are speculating across this market have meme coins. All of that, 70, 80% of their crypto holdings are in bitcoin.

[E]

Well, well, this, this is the, my question for the, the people in the, in the spaces is, is there a sense now that if you're, like I said, if you're investing in this space or from the whales who kind of stuck it to the government, made a lot of wealth to say, hey, thank you very much. Now that we got this, the Trump incident, the US government involved Trump in it, we've got ETFs on a tear doing the pylon trade. Maybe it's time to say thank you very much. You know, bait and switch and I mean that's my macro view. But overall, I mean, I'm just asking people that question if that might be the case. Either way, I'm just seeing performance and my bottom line is I've been, my spidey senses have shown me there's been waning performance in higher volatility in the space for almost a year now. And gold has been my main bias. Now gold is just so expensive. I'm just plain scared.

[A]

I had Peter Schiff on yesterday and yeah, he, he's not doubting it's going to continue up. Mike.

[E]

Yeah, we're definitely getting a pile and trade in gold and as we know when, it's just, I look at the lessons of when it gets this expensive. Certainly if you get, if you're overweight at the beginning, you're, you're way overweight and it's good to have that kind of problem. You're supposed to just the lessons essence of the businesses. Don't ever tempt the market gods and give some money back to him.

[A]

And we can open this to everyone. We do have a lot of charts and narrative that show that bitcoin obviously lags gold occasionally and sees the move if you overlay them. Obviously it's always selective time framing and, you know, this time could be different. But it seems Mike or anybody on the Panel that, you know, if gold is pulling that off and bitcoin has followed for quite a while, that we may at least see another blow off top on bitcoin. Anybody?

[E]

Thoughts?

[H]

Yeah, yeah, I would, I would agree with that. The, the thing that I think, you know, bewilders a lot of people right now looking at, you know, previous, previous market cycles is the phrase that everybody hates. This time is different. It feels bizarre right now, especially looking at the gold trade because gold, there's a massive amount of central bank buying on gold and I'm not necessarily, I would love to see massive rollover into, you know, from central banks into bitcoin. The question is, is the central bank buying in gold going to have that pile on rally like Mike was just speaking of with retail really buying, you know, in droves, coming in to push it even higher and then potentially seeing some of that carryover effect into that rotation of capital? Right now it feels like gold is a bit of a darling in, in markets. So I don't know if that's going to be the direct correlation like we've seen in the past where gold runs up and then you see bitcoin three to four months later. I do think bitcoin's still going to run up pretty dramatically. I think everybody's still fighting through the, the narrative bias regarding the four year cycle. We're right at that time is supposed to turn down here. But then you look at the other macro conditions, it just suggests that it feels to me and I'm, I feel very hedged right now in the market because of this. My bias is that we're going to have a fairly bullish 2026 but that is completely contentious with how the bitcoin cycle has run previously. So you've got to be a little bit risk hedge there. If you're trading and then I keep learning every single day, why the hell are you trading gold?

[A]

Hold.

[H]

Figure out a way to buy and hold and generate more cash, sorry Bitcoin, find a way to generate more cash flow and be more resilient and hodling through the chop that everybody else just keeps wrecking themselves on.

[A]

Mike, do you have any data? I know you've shared some on central bank buying of gold versus retail. I know the ETFs are doing exceptionally well which obviously indicates some retail interest there.

[E]

Yes, it's, I can send you some of that. One of it's actually a journalist reached out to me yesterday about it and my main source for this is World Gold Council because they have the good connection now. There's so much controversy there. First of all most, a lot of central banks don't report. Some of them do publicly. On the Bloomberg terminal we have data from China but it's somewhat dicey. It's just somewhat, that's why you just don't really know until a lag and some of the professionals do. And that's like World Gold Council gets it. Goldman Sachs has some people, dude. But that data is just hardest to point out and the bottom line I pointed out recently is I was comparing gold to copper. It's again another all time high. Just scary stuff. But it was pointed out that the obviously what you said ETFs are really kicking in. But central banks also very much lagging. And the thing I think is more serious now with central banks is I suspect their buying is going to be a little more elastic. So certainly for the last two years, three years according to the World Gold Council central bank buying of gold been I think two to three times the average, the 10 year average and it's, it's just such a lagging thing, you don't really know for sure. But the number one buyer on the planet has been the Chinese central bank. And we all know what's happening in China. Severe deflation that might trickle down. So I'll just point out that fact. PPI in China is running minus about 3% bond yield 10 note is 1.84. I think the US might go there. That's despite the fact they're, they're money. Their money supply is running 45, 46, almost $50 trillion, double the US and debt to GPA is 300% versus in this country is 1.3 or so. So that just reminds me of trading JGBs 30 years ago. Seen it before.

[H]

One of the things I'd love to add there too is you know, with the buying that we're seeing in gold right now, one could argue that it does sort of underpin at least to some degree, you know, a growing loss of confidence in you know, the US dollar as well as sort of the debt buying narrative that has really sustained what we've seen in the US economy over the last many years. And this would be a bit of a, I don't want to say a stretch, but a tangent. Bitcoin is coming in at, at a time where we're seeing it in other asset classes like gold perform extraordinarily at the same time. We just saw in the last three months that there's a 40% increase is from a report from Bitwise yesterday, a 40% increase in the last three months in corporate buying stacking of bitcoin. So I do think there's a lot more to come. I think that the gold performance is very interesting. I think a lot of I did a post on my existing yesterday crypto bros, me included, you know, looked at this market like the thing that's going to outperform every other asset. And historically it kind of has. In the short history bitcoin has had, however, we're looking at this cycle and there's frustration because you got gold running up dramatically, Nvidia just melting faces. You got other assets out there that are performing in ways. It's like, oh, this was a cycle that the stocks were actually going to run and you needed to just be a little bit more patient. Especially those people that are playing in the alt market that have just never ended, waiting for an alt season, that all the capital is focused in other places.

[A]

That's because there's an alt season happening in crypto adjacent public equities. It's just a much bigger pond and the real money doesn't need to buy altcoins to participate in that anymore. I'm not saying there can't be an alt season. I'm not saying there won't be an alt season. But like if you can invest in a treasury company and see it go up 28x before they've ever even done anything and you can exit and make money, that's alt season. If you can watch your crypto miners go from $2 to $65, why would you buy coin number 94 on coin market cap? It's just a very different market.

[D]

More liquidity, but with so much more liquidity in the paper market than you do in the alt market. That's the big massive difference.

[A]

So true.

[D]

You can get in and get out.

[A]

Yeah. David, you showed up at just the right moment for this conversation.

[E]

Huh?

[A]

I saw your request to jump off. David Nabdar, could you hear us? Maybe you can't hear. I don't know. I was trying to bring him up. David obviously is CEO of BNB Network company, which is BNC on the nasdaq, which you know, the biggest BNB treasury company. So I think he has the perfect voice for this conversation. Ajit, go ahead.

[I]

So I've been an active crypto investor since about 2016 and if I were to try to correlate bitcoin prices with either gold on the one hand or the NASDAQ stocks on the other hand, I find that going back many years like 20, 16, 17, 18. I would find that crypto was more correlated directionally with gold at that time. Now, it tends to be more correlated relative to that period with the stock market. It might be because of a variety of reasons, such as liquidity, such as the fact that there are ETFs or what have you. But I think that we continue to discuss gold as some sort of a indicator of where bitcoin prices might go. And there is definitely a logic to that. But I think that bitcoin has become a little more Wall Street, a little more Main street, and we might have to look at the stocks also and where they're headed.

[A]

Well, I know Mike would agree with that, but I think that narrative is shifting. For the first time in the past few weeks, we've talked about it here. So I don't know how far down this rabbit hole we want to go, but this is the first time, regardless of how it's trading, that we've heard names like J.P. morgan and Ken Griffin at Citadel and Morgan Stanley and Paul Tudor Jones. Well, not the first time for him talking about the debasement trade and including bitcoin next to gold in the proper assets to buy for the debasement trade. Right. I'm not really hearing as much. I mean, Mike, you obviously say it all the time. You're pointing out the correlations. That's math. But you're not hearing the bitcoin trades like Nvidia narrative as much as you're now talking about bitcoin as digital gold. So it really is a shift, at least narrative wise. I'm not saying factually that is true, but narrative wise, yeah.

[E]

Well, I do enjoy the narrative shift. And that's where you have to stick to your discipline and relative value. And that's what I sometimes, I always point out. Markets always get really cheap for a reason and really expensive for a reason. Sometimes it's best to ignore the reason, just focus on the value. And that's why, I mean, I got to meet Ray Dalia last week at Greenwich Economic Forum. Just hello. I didn't really, you know, have time to talk to him, but I saw him recommend Golden's Conference. I saw a bunch of bitcoin panelists and did, did enjoy that because it was juxtaposed to a lot of the other people at the conference. The bitcoin people were average age of 30. They spoke real fast and they're really bullish. That's okay. It's great. I mean, I was 31 too. The key thing I want to Point out is when you see headlines of, you know, significant personalities making comments about an asset that they didn't make comments about a year or two ago when it's time to buy it and it's really expensive if you're a trader, I mean just sitting in trading desk, we'd all look at each other and say hey, I got some profits here. It's towards the end of the year. All right, book a little bit. I think that's the big problem that might kick in. Cryptos. Everything's based on a year end basis. For those of us who a lot of people on this call who run, you just run leverage money and manage money and getting towards the end of the year and you got profits. And I'm really worried about what that October effect.

[A]

That's why doesn't that apply? Doesn't that apply? I mean all those same kind of investors obviously have massive exposure to Mag. Mag 7 tech stocks. They probably even have exposure to gold. So I, I'm assuming that's not a crypto problem. You're saying that's a market problem for a retrace. Right? I know that Bitcoin.

[E]

Oh yeah, everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

At these levels everything is correlated. We all, you know, Dave Wisewater points out a lot what happened 2008. Those officer way overweight gold and made a lot of money in 2007, gave some back in 2008 because everything went down. That's what I'm worried about. And I look at the tip of the iceberg is cryptos. Bitcoin's there and what's the tip of the. The iceberg of the iceberg is microstrategy. And so everything's starting to me giving you warning signals and do you heed them and say okay, maybe I don't make that extra little oomph though towards the end of the year or do I avoid a potential what happened in 1929? These are just things that, you know, I have to say because the history of gold outperforming like this, you have to go back 50 to 100 years. This is not normal. And I just look at it like okay, thanks. What's the, where's the sore thumb on the markets? I look at things like, you know, you know, people hate when I say it, but dogecoin, it's a joke. It's launched as a joke. It's worth $30 billion. You can take that down to $3 and at some point then there'll be a good washout to buy all this stuff.

[A]

Mike, when gold made These moves in the past, maybe we've talked about this, but how often did we also see everything rall was up alongside gold? Rationally you would think that in a moment like this if gold was up this high we'd be alongside a crashing stock market.

[E]

I'm glad you mentioned that because the only recent comparison is that the inflation of the 70s, 1979 was the last of the S&P 500 was up about 13%. CPI peaked just over 10%. Gold was up over 100%. Now that was late 70s, that was right near the peak of inflation. That's the difference now is it was US based centric and now we have this, you know, the second largest, most deflationary economy on the planet in severe deflation. They're doing everything they can to fight it. And the pillar of the whole global economy is that US stock market. It's got to stay up. That's why I point out is you know this Vix stays above 20 if the you know, 90 day volatility does stay below the, you know, a multi year low, you just get a little normalization, the dominoes tumble. And that's what I, as a trader my, my spidey senses are on that. You know, if you're, and if you've been outright leveraged long this year and, and made money, you've made money in everything, most notably gold. And that's why I'm sensing just a little trigger for stops. And like you saw sometimes when you get this expensive it just takes a little spark. And regardless of what the spark is for reversion. That's why like I said, I'm very scared.

[A]

It's interesting that it was. Yeah, sorry to interrupt. It's interesting that it was 70s because you talk about you know, CPI back then but that was the Arthur Burns era where they just conveniently changed the way that CPI was calculated as a result. Right. So we're not even looking at the same kind of data anymore.

[E]

It's a classic thing to mention and we have to love, I love the fact that Mr. Powell has become an nemesis, an enemy of Mr. Trump, yet Trump appointed him. When you get someone to that position of being known in history, they're not going to want to go back in history as an Arthur Burns or name of mud and anybody you appoint to that position knows that once they get to that decision making thing just to do what the President says and they know they might ruin their life and reputation and their family's name forever, they might act this might not act accordingly and that's what I think is happening a little bit in the Fed in the macro picture, and they're starting to get pushback. That's what you think. I'm from Chicago and there's massive riots going on in Chicago and things like that. I was just there recently. It's a great city. But one thing that's going to happen, I think with all this is we've got about a year before midterms and it's human nature, it's normal cycles in this, in this country always push back and then the party in power. And I think all this stuff I'm seeing the videos right now on Chicago and Fire is people are just gonna say, yeah, okay, I might have liked the guy, but I'm gonna vote against him just for that check and balance. That's in human nature. And that's why things are cycling, I think. And also part of that is the stock market. It's all there. And what impact emboldens Mr. Trump to do what he does is the stock market. And that's another thing with the shutdown. I think it's all related. What's emboldened Mr. Trump to really kind of play hard game is what can bring both of these parties to the table is the stock market. And if the stock market goes down, what does that mean for cryptos? Cryptos might be leading the way. They're just so highly correlated. Now.

[A]

I was just sent an article in the chat which is interesting, worth unpacking at least briefly. Bitmind chair Tom Lee, obviously Bitmind now, I believe, owns 2.5% of the total supply of Ethereum and is probably the largest treasury company next to MicroStrategy. Second, Bitmind chair Tom Lee says the bubble has burst in digital asset. Treasury companies would love thoughts on that because obviously he has a vested interest in them being successful. But maybe he's saying that the bubble is everyone else and not himself. Have to read the article, but it's an interesting take because Tom Lee's been bullish on everything all the time.

[H]

Well, you know, I, I mean, I look at NACA and it's surprising to watch how far that fell. I mean, especially when you consider it. It's like it's basically like a negative premium there for the exposure.

[A]

Gary Kelly's trying to trigger us. Don't, don't, don't fall for it. Go ahead.

[H]

Well, no, I'm not trying to trigger at all. It's just more like I look at.

[D]

That and make triggering at this point.

[A]

Kelly, you just read Gary and I lament this regularly. Go ahead.

[H]

Yeah, no, I just, you know, I look at that just from the. The net value of the bitcoin held, and then you look at the stock price and it's like, well, that. That doesn't correlate. It makes you wonder if it's a good trade, regardless of what's happening at the organizational level. Because it seems like even if it was further driven down some point, it would either be acquired or it's going to rebound up to that level. But I. I think that just speaks to the sort of overabundance of the treasury companies that, you know, just started deploying, and everybody was expecting that to ride the exact same wave. And then you see, you know, some. Some. Some outflows or loss of sentiment and in particular ones. But, I mean, I. I mean, I don't know what to make of it.

[A]

I mean, seems like Nakamoto trading at a discount to their Bitcoin and debt is probably a good buy. But, you know, we've been saying that since, what, one. Well, there wasn't a discount at 120, but I was approaching it. It has to be at a massive discount now. I mean, Gary, I don't know. Have you. Have you even looked or done the math? Because, listen, I want to give you a lot of credit. You came on here and you share everything. You do, and you said, this thing is 93 cents. And you're like, but I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not buying it. It could go down a lot further. Yeah, I don't know where it's at. Today. It was 79 pre market.

[D]

Yeah. I think the value is around 600. And he's got, you know, over 800 in Bitcoin.

[A]

I.

[D]

It's a deep discount, but I think he's getting. I mean, the share price is getting pummeled, I think, because. Because of the management style. I. You know, and there's no announcements. Look, it was a mistake on my part. I don't know why I did it. I really. You know, I do.

[A]

Hey, you and I were egging each other on, buddy. I'm there with you, probably.

[D]

Yep. Yep. So I don't know what. Tom Lee. I saw that earlier this morning. I was like, oh, that's an interesting note. Now maybe what he's saying is, hey, the damage is done. You know, I mean, that's kind of the way I read it. Hey, the crash has already happened.

[A]

Yeah, maybe that's right. Maybe he's kind of calling a bottom in the bubble. Burst and, you know, just pay attention to the big ones and move forward responsibly and they'll trade it a slight, you know, premium eventually.

[D]

And now if Mike's right and you get a 30 retracement on Bitcoin, man, these things get crushed.

[A]

Crushed.

[D]

Mike, I'd like to know, where do you think gold and silver go here? Well, in fact, all the metals.

[E]

Gary, Gary, I appreciate that because I'm worried that everything goes down. It's a lesson I learned ahead of.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Is that one of my hedge fund guys I worked for said, you know, in bear markets, everybody can lose money and that leaves only one thing left, and that's good old Treasuries. But yeah, there's. There's so much room to hit stops and everything. I mean, we're actually running through short squeeze in silver, particularly, definitely, because you see the cash above futures. That hardly ever happens, but I'm afraid everything has. That's why you said sometimes it's time to just, you can just say sell. You don't want to sell at the low, but when it's just, you can say, take profits on enormous gains. That's not giving investment. Logical. And I think this is time for people, rational people like you. But one thing.

[D]

Let me ask you a question.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

So. So let's say you have that meltdown. Where does all the money go?

[E]

Yeah, exactly. Just disappears.

[D]

More money than you and I have ever seen sitting on the sidelines today or getting 3.15.

[E]

Well, Gary, that's one thing I appreciate about you. I know you're a wealthy, successful investor. First thing you do is, you know, you admit when you're wrong. You admit when you're wrong and you move on. That. That's how you Totally. Yeah. And I just, I see that from you. That's so admirable. The key thing I want to point out is I like when people say that, but I've been publishing on this for two years now. They. People use this money market amount. It's like $7 trillion. I'll say it's high. If you use that relative to the actual total market value of the stock market, it's very low. It's about 10%. Right before the crisis in 2008, 2007 was closer to 15%. So cash levels to stock market value level to the average value of total real estate in this country, which is around 50, almost $60 trillion, are very low. It's just the bar is so high now. And that's the lessons of history. Once you get this kind of inflation you always look for, typically some form of just a little bit of deflation. We haven't had that yet. And that's what I'm wor worried about that gold's telling us. But the key thing I also want to mention was stated earlier. But you know, some of this gold's getting away from the dower. But if you looked at cryptos, the dollar is king. I just love been pointing that out forever. It's finally great to see Trump figure it out that he just, you know, typical. Every day in CoinMarketCap.com you click on buy and what's the most widely traded crypto on the planet? It's tether. It's $300 billion. All that stuff's going to Treasuries. If anything, I completely agree with. There's a bull market and a proliferation of crypto dollars and people call them stable coins.

[A]

300 trillion in a day, as our title says here. I would call that wild proliferation. But yeah, that, that's a joke. But we know that tokenization is the next narrative regardless of what the market does. We had Eric Trump yesterday saying tokenizing real estate. Gary, I think you were mentioning that yesterday. BlackRock saying they're building their own tokenization platform. And we know at the end of the day stablecoins are just the first and best example of tokenizing real world assets. So I mean, Mike, I know you're still bullish on the utilization of the technology regardless of the market.

[E]

Oh, the technology is amazing. This is something we both completely agreed on. I just, you know, just like the Internet was and we all knew it had a bubble and it corrected but oh yeah, it's just the key thing is what really struck me is Michael Slayer In 2020 that really accelerated my bullishness when Bitcoin is around 10 grand. And when Cy Sheffield, Laura Shin had Cy Sheffield from Visa on her program, he just pointed out the facts. You know, we can, we can square our dollar balances instantly with stable coins. Now he said this when there was maybe less than maybe 50 billion of them. And it's like, yeah, it's the technology and that's the key thing. I think that's Satoshi Nakamoto pointed out, but less than he had expected. Peer to peer cash. It was a headline in the bitcoin standard. Now we're getting peer to peer cash, which an actual dollar. You don't have to use that and have that fluctuation. And virtually every person planet in the world needs 100 or so crypto or actual dollars or sorry, currencies that are basically not so good. You may have 12 that are great and one or two that are really good and that's the dollar and the Swissy. They all have access to the dollar now, at least more so every day via stable coins. I don't know what stops that and it's just a matter of time. We should be able to use them as money markets and get some return. I mean just figuring out the technology, I just like to watch it from above, you know, from a 30,000 foot view and this technology is awesome. Just don't see what stops it. But you know, math, you know, things that are launched as a joke and trade at $30 billion just need some purging and just a question of when and how.

[A]

Anyone else, any final thoughts? We've covered everything I wanted to today and we got about three minutes left. But if anybody has any words of wisdom or great insight, feel free to share before we go, no pressure.

[H]

I'd love to just comment. Mark Moss, yesterday I saw the interview he did with Natalie Brunel and he was kind of discussing this exact scenario that we're in right now where on the one hand we have the, I don't want to call them doomers, but people that are looking at market data through a lens that looks like we're going to get, you know, and it looked like for 10 years that we're going to get a massive correction in markets. And then you look at the administration right now and what's going on with our debt and the ability to service the debt, it feels like, and it, it sucks to navigate a market just by feel, but it feels like the market, they're going to push the market to run hot and a lot of people waiting for that big correction are just getting positioned worse, potentially worse and worse as we're getting sort of the crash set up for the dollar and the melt up that just continues to persist to the upside and investment assets. But I just thought that was an interesting point. The question is which way is it going to go go and what your entry and what your exit going to be because only each individual investor can make those decisions.

[E]

Right?

[A]

Also I think at the end of the day it's what you exit into. Which was the question that Gary asked Mike.

[D]

Right.

[A]

If you're an art and bitcoin believer, you exit into bitcoin even if you think it's going to go down because you're holding forever and it's going to go up, you know, and, or you Believe it's going to. Mike, I saw you lift your mic there.

[E]

Well, I had to answer that because a good 30 something friend of mine who's way overweight microstrategy and his father was so scared about. It was interesting. Was asked me the other day what, you know, he's lightening up on a lot of stuff. He says what should go into. And this is just a silly question for me because in the old days you were always just go right to treasuries and say thank you very much. And that's the key thing when people get so emboldened by bull markets, they forget you can really lose a lot of money. And that's part of the reason I'm still thinking we might be at the cost of starting our third 50% drawdown, the S&P 500, this century. Now, we've already had. Sorry, since the start of 2000, we've already had two. It's just that's, it's the human nature of people even asking the question. Just put it away. Put in, you know, get your 4% and say thank you very much and get pissed off when it goes to 2%. And that's basically what you're getting in China right now.

[A]

All right, everybody. Great, great show today as usual. I'm glad we got it up after three attempts. Well worth it. Amazing panel and thank you guys for joining. Adam, thank you for the emojis. You keep me, you keep me in line. Really deeply appreciate it. Gary, thank you for the screen. I'm sending a box truck over on Saturday. And Mike, I'll see you tomorrow. See, guys, we, like, know each other around here. You guys might not know that. And I've hung out with Kelly at Gary's house. Right. See, we know each other around these places. Great show as usual. And we will see you back tomorrow, 10:15am Eastern Standard Time for another crypto town hall. Thanks, everyone. Bye.