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SEC Approves First Hybrid BTC ETH ETF | Crypto Town Hall
01:06:28
SEC Approves First Hybrid BTC ETH ETF | Crypto Town Hall
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- [00:01]
Scott
We have our two man crack team of legal experts today of Fred and Carlo, we got to get lawyered and some others up here. But we have some nonsense at the SEC that I want to talk to you guys about. So obviously we have the title here. SEC approves first Hybrid Bitcoin etf. That's cool. Great. Wonderful. We also have the news that gets Dave Weisberger going that Carolyn Crenshaw is not going to be reconfirmed. But at the same time apparently Crypto Kongs, whatever the hell that is, NFT project has received a Wells notice from the sec which seems like Gary Gendler like on his way being pushed out the door is like trying to throw grenades back into the room or something. Or more and more apparently like firing a pellet gun. Cyber Kongs. Crypto Cats Kongs. I literally don't care. Crypto. Crypto Kitties. No. What is it called? Congo. Congo Cats. Cat Tongs. Yeah, whatever. I said there's a well of notice. It just feels. Cyber Kongs feels completely. Oh, there's Preston. See, look guys, the whole legal team, yes, it is called Cyber Kongs and they received a well Wells notice from the sec. We all know that historically most Wells notices are an indication that there may be action coming from the sec. But this is just so dumb that the SEC here, December at the in December before a new administration comes in and obviously a crypto friendlier administration is just firing off what Wells notices that probably won't see follow through. I mean Carlo, I butchered the name and you corrected me so you get to go first. I mean help. Just ridiculous.
- [01:51]
Carlo
It, it is ridiculous. It is anti climatic because I think it's not going to go anywhere once the new administration takes takes power and we have a new SEC head. I think it's sour grapes. As Gensler exits. It's petty, it's somewhat vindictive and I think it's a waste of government resources to even pursue this.
- [02:19]
Scott
Yeah, I mean they kind of said Cyber Comms has received a wealth nose from the NST from the sec. We are extremely disappointed at the approach the SEC has taken towards us. We're going to stand up and fight for a brighter future that holds more clarity for NFT projects. I mean, seems like they can just wait a little while, right? I mean most likely they're not going to really have to fight this. Assuming this is not at the top of the docket with a fresh sec. And we've actually in the last few months for the first time we've seen some of these Wells notices not end up with enforcement actions even before we had the election.
- [02:52]
Carlo
Well, we know that the current approach from the crypto sector in response to these Wells notices is to dig in and fight and tell the SEC we're not going to roll over. So, okay, bring the fight. And now this is an instance of where if I'm advising a project like that, I'm telling them to run out the clock, make a response if you want. You do have the right to respond to the Wells notice, but I think respond aggressively and just run out the clock because I just don't see in any practical sense, unless you're talking about instances of fraud, clear evidence of violations of fraud statutes and potential criminality. I don't see these having any teeth, these Wells notices that are coming out last minute like this.
- [03:40]
Scott
I didn't bother to read it because just, you know, it's on my. Do not care. Listen. But what were the allegations here that could potentially have led to enforcement action?
- [03:51]
Carlo
You know, I don't know. I can only speculate. I don't think I've had a chance to see the Wells notice either. But I do remember that they did drop a banana token back in the day and that might be. They may be making a case that they, you know, launched an unregistered security that the typical stuff that we see. It's just interesting that they target an NFT project that is, you know, from the 2021 boom that has kind of been under the radar. There are so many NFT projects out there. It's so arbitrary the way they pick these companies and these projects that they want to go after. And it just kind of reinforces to me, Scott, why it's been so hard to advise clients in this space and why it's been so hard to build anything meaningful in the United States in this sector. Because you're basically just playing a game of Russian roulette where you know, the SEC spins the, the chamber and if your token comes up, you get a Wells notice and if not, you, you potentially have a successful project and that's just no way to do business.
- [05:00]
Preston
I have been doing some in depth.
- [05:02]
Dave
Research in the last 15 seconds and here that they launched a token called the Yield Banana and the Yield Banana was issued each Genesis Kong, which I assume is one of their NFTs, produces 10 yield banana every day until March 18, 2031. And if I had to guess what the SEC had a problem with, my guess would be it was that. So just a hunch.
- [05:28]
Scott
Yield Banana ZONE Raoul, pal, I'm pointing it before he can get to the Yield Bazan zone. But here's what cyberkong said had been suffering in silence for the past two years when the SEC first contacted them. So actually this has been kind of in the works for a while. The NFT collections had the SEC's enforcement team brought up a very concerning rhetoric that you cannot have a token in tandem with a blockchain game without registering it as a security. So there you go, Preston. See, this is what happens when I do my research after nine minutes into the show. But I appreciate you helping me there. So either way, very unlikely that this, I mean, Preston, do you think this comes to fruition? I mean, is this enough that it could, you know, sort of carry through to the next administration and they would see this as problematic?
- [06:14]
Dave
Well, they need a commission vote before they actually brought an enforcement action. I'm not sure whether that's occurred or not yet. So I'm not over. I should be more familiar with that process, but I'm not. But they need a full vote of the commission and presumably there would be dissents, I think that give, particularly given that Commissioner Crenshaw is going to be out her term, it looks like, is not going to be renewed. You know, the. The SEC is going to be stacked with pro crypto people. And my guess is there's going to be a hiatus where they wait and see what, what Congress does regarding market structure, regulation and things like that, and then that kind of just rebases, resets the Commission's approach. I mean, it's entirely possible that under the new administration, the SEC could lose jurisdiction over crypto completely and it could just go over to the cftc. So we don't know. Of course they could bring enforcement actions. I just, I don't think there's going to be a lot of institutional pressure to do that in that organization in the immediate six months.
- [07:18]
Scott
Hello.
- [07:20]
Carlo
Also, big day for crypto legal events. More breaking news. Hayley Welch, the Hawk to a viral celebrity, responded her meme that launched recently, her meme token that was regarded as a pump and dump, resulted in a lawsuit that was filed yesterday. And the lawsuit was filed against the team. But Haley was not listed as a defendant in the lawsuit. I actually gave a quote to decrypt about this lawsuit yesterday. And I mentioned that Haley may wake up now that this lawsuit has dropped. And it was curious to me, Scott, that she wasn't listed as a defendant in the lawsuit. And it made me wonder whether she may not have been as much of an insider in this and profited to the extent that people think. And then, lo and behold, she. Well, lo and behold, she released a tweet today saying that she's working with the law firm that is initiating the lawsuit and cooperating.
- [08:16]
Scott
Yeah, she's probably going to sue.
- [08:18]
Carlo
That is an interesting development.
- [08:19]
Scott
Yeah, Yeah.
- [08:20]
Carlo
I mean, she's, you know, she's definitely lined up. She's. She's definitely got exposure, but it's interesting that she's lined up with the lawsuit, with the. With the firm that's initiating this lawsuit on behalf of the plaintiffs.
- [08:31]
Scott
I mean, I think it's fair to assume that in the cases of a celebrity like her. God, that the pain of having to say those words together. But a celebrity like this who's not crypto savvy, probably has no history influencer.
- [08:44]
Danish
She is not a celebr. Celebrity.
- [08:45]
Scott
No, she's. She's a celebrity. She spit on that thing. But, you know, and that's. That makes you a celebrity. Now. Have you ever seen the entire Kardashian empire? Where'd that start?
- [08:56]
Danish
Anyways, but from spitting on it.
- [08:59]
Scott
Yeah. A different thing. Yeah. Presumably it could be the same one. I don't know. I've never done my research. But either way, you have to assume that somebody who knows how to pump and dump meme coins contacted her, sold her a fake bill of goods, said, we're going to put your face on this. You go out and do a spaces or two, and you're going to make a ton of money. And I would. I would assume that she's not savvy enough to have scammed people and that she herself basically got scammed, and it's her face that was on it. But, I mean, is that kind of what you're alluding to there, Carla? I mean, that's got to be the way this went.
- [09:32]
Carlo
Yes.
- [09:33]
Danish
Yeah.
- [09:34]
Carlo
Yeah, that's exactly the point. And it's. It just. It reinforces. Look, I agree with you. Celebrity is a very loosely defined term now, but if you are able to get something to go viral on the Internet, I mean, she's been invited to throw a pitch at a Mets game. She's been on all manner of talk shows and podcasts. I mean, she's achieved somewhat of a celebrity status over this viral video, and somebody took advantage of that. It looks like capitalized on her celebrity. She jumped in and started to post about how interested she was in crypto and bitcoin and so forth. Obviously well over her skis, did not understand. Probably got hooked up with a team of devs who persuaded her that this could be good for her brand. And she did not understand the nuances of how the token launch was executed and the potential insider tokens that were held and the dump and so forth. And now she's on the other side of it, and her brand has been completely, and I understand we use the term loosely, brand, but there's definitely value in what she's accomplished as far as exposure, and she could have done a lot with it. But now this failed launch and this lawsuit has done irreparable damage to her brand and her reputation. And that's the hard lesson that a lot of these people that are quote, unquote, celebrities are learning. You put your name behind something like this, it comes with consequences, not only financially, legally, but also to the. To your name and your reputation.
- [11:01]
Scott
Yeah, it's so funny to talk about her name and reputation in this manner, but I think you're right. But that said, I think this is forgotten in a week by anyone who, for some reason, follows her and is outside of crypto. Like, I. I think that this seems like her reputation is tarnished with a bunch of crypto trading, you know, meme trading, crypto guys. But, like, does the rest of the world even know that this is happening? It was just one of those things that's so sort of unique to our echo chamber. I don't know, but I think she's going to survive to whatever degree she was going to before. This is a tale as old as time, though. I mean, I think it was last cycle, but remember Lindsay Lohan and Neo and all these people, like, got in trouble for pushing Tron, I think. Is that. Does anybody remember this? They were all tweeting about Tron and gotten some. Some heat. We've had a lot of celebrities have their names used or, you know, their teams tweets. Yeah, Robbie, you're giving me the hundred. It was Lindsay Lohan, right? I think it was. And yes. Yeah.
- [12:00]
Robbie
No, it was definitely.
- [12:02]
Scott
Yeah. And, you know, presumably in those same cases, whoever controlled their social media was told by their team to tweet something that they had gotten paid for, and the person probably didn't even know. Like, I also have serious doubts that Kim Kardashian took her time to post Ethereum Max herself on her Instagram account, which she got in trouble for. Go ahead, Donna. Should you lift your mic?
- [12:24]
Danish
I was just gonna say.
- [12:27]
Scott
Ultimately, that.
- [12:28]
Danish
Has not changed the fact that they are pushing things that don't work and they are doing pump and dumps, and we actually don't know whether Haley Walsh actually made money from this. Right. Like, we actually don't know she did. So I don't want to like discount what happened. She probably was taken advantage of, but we actually don't know if she was. So.
- [12:47]
Scott
Yeah, keep your mind open that she could have made money. Yeah.
- [12:51]
Danish
You know, let's not automatically assume that the person that's never done crypto before doesn't know how to steal money. Right. Like people, people do know how to steal money. Quite, quite well. I was going to say is it would not have been a, a bull run without one of these things happening. So bravo to everybody. We're in a bull cycle. It's, it's, this is how we know.
- [13:19]
Scott
That's right. This is not, this is not in the depths of a bear market behavior would have never worked. Yeah. But it is something we've seen over and over again. Fred, go ahead.
- [13:32]
Fred
Hey, good morning, everyone. I just wanted to say on the two topics we've discussed, first on Haley, is she a celebrity but she's a hero because I had a great marriage before she came out. But she's helped us take it to the next level. So I think she's one of the greatest, it's one of the greatest things we've ever had.
- [13:54]
Carlo
And J.D.
- [13:55]
Fred
Vance is quite lucky that she's not a vice presidential age because there is a strong attempt to maybe draft her into the vice president position. But I did want to say more seriously on the SEC issue is that, you know, and Carlo and Preston had brought it up, she, the SEC was going after or at least dealing with Cyber Kongs from 2021 and it was just kind of sitting around. So what scares me is that obviously means, and you know, it's not just from clients and potential clients I've talked to. There's a stack of these investigations that have been just sitting on the SEC desk for the last two, three years. So this is obviously a small time or I think, I don't actually know how well cyberkong did, but this seems like it's a small time issue or one of their investigations. But are they going to start sending out their stack of notices, enforcement actions, all of this as they lead up into the transition? You know, Gary said he's staying in to the very end. Dave's favorite commissioner is going to stay in, obviously, it looks like, until the very end. So they still have their 3:2 majority. And the fact is, is once they initiate all these things and they get filed, you know, the key thing going forward is we're going to have a pro SEC or a pro crypto SEC coming in, but how much are they willing to go back and just eat certain enforcement actions that they've already filed? And what I mean by that is one of the most anti crypto in house lawyers they have. Jorge, show me the dinero. Tenrero just got promoted to like a major litigation director at the sec. And so there's a chain of command that has to happen for some of these cases to get withdrawn. Ultimately it has to be an SEC vote. But how much is, are they gonna, are they gonna push the staff below the commissioner level, like at the director of litigation level to say, okay, fold up shop on all these cases that you filed, you can do it and it can be done. So that's not the question. It's just, I don't know how typical it is in, in past, you know, before crypto even came to be, that you would start pulling back on some of these cases that are already filed or how easy that is, or how easy it is to get some people that have burrowed their way in, you know, that aren't political level employee appointees out. So, you know, everything's still overall positive. But we'll have to see how that kind of development plays out going once all the right people are put in there.
- [16:34]
Scott
Dave.
- [16:38]
Preston
Dave, you always do right when I leave the screen. Sorry. Yeah.
- [16:41]
Scott
And you got that big yellow hand in front of your face. So it's not on me.
- [16:45]
Preston
Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's fine. Actually, let's get rid of the yellow hand. Now that you call away, two things. First, to go back to. I think the most interesting thing is going back to the title, which is the hybrid etf. I don't think people realize how big of a deal it is that the structure of a crypto index fund now as a, as an ETF is now approved. And if you read, you know, when you, when you read the various news articles about it, it effectively is. What it basically means is as soon as the underlying are non securities or are clearly defined, it sets the stage for crypto index funds. So you'll. And that is a very big deal. So it's not just bitcoin and ether. You can have bitcoin. You can think about everything. You can have a deep in one game. No matter what it is, it is a necessary step. The fact that they did it in this administration is actually kind of surprising, to be honest, because it gets rid of a roadblock towards creating indexing in the crypto world using the etf, Tradfi Rail. So yes, it's not something that's going to cause an immediate move in the markets, but it's a very big deal and I'm sure Matt Hogan is licking his chops and some of your other contributors that come on here. That's thing one. The other thing is there was an interview I guess someone sent me. I think Eric Balchunas posted it yesterday. I didn't see exactly but where Hester Purse was talking about the potential for in kind redemptions and staking for the Bitcoin ETF and staking for Ethereum ETFs. And I just want to make a note that when that happens that's an enormously and that's going to happen by the way. But the necessary precondition for that will be the newly reconstituted SEC calling off the dogs and telling FINRA they can approve broker dealers to trade Bitcoin on behalf of their customers or non securities with a designation. That's something that's been blocked. The only broker dealer that's been allowed to touch crypto so far is Promethium and we can go down that rabbit hole if people want to start laughing or joking about it. Of course you'll have to deal with the defamation lawsuit because that's all those guys have. But what that means is you were talking in your space in your podcast this morning, Scott, about blackrock's three minute video and how big of a deal that is what would truly unleash all the financial advisors out there. So if that's what we're facing, that's kind of a big deal and people don't realize it. But if you're trying to talk about what are going to be major drivers in the next quarter, I think that's something that after Paul Atkins has sworn in and you have a newly reconstituted sec, that's a big deal. The last point I'll make, not a lawyer, but I do know how this stuff works. The commission does have to vote on enforcement actions and and there is literally zero probability that I don't care who the guy in the enforcement if they can't prove fraud, they're not going to get the commission to vote to support them. So companies, unless they have really bad counsel, are not going to lay down in front of the SEC anymore. And what does that mean? That means that to be blunt, that if you're working in the SEC and you're wasting taxpayer money by doing things that have zero chance of ever coming to fruition, that Elon and Vivek are going to look like are going to basically be looking like the angel of death to axe your job because it's clearly exactly the opposite of cost benefit analysis justified. So look, I'm not going to put myself in the position of being one of these nut job anti crypto lawyers at the SEC that have been pursuing all these counterproductive cases over the last few years. But if they value their job and they value their ability to earn a living, they're going to cease and desist. It's actually kind of amazing that they haven't already. I guess they're people who are independently wealthy and don't need to continue to work. Yeah.
- [20:59]
Scott
Laughing yeah, that's a pretty funny comment there at the end. So it's interesting we were talking about as you said Dave, myself and Nathaniel like what the makeup of the next SEC will be. It's actually I don't know if the lawyers have better takes on this but Nathaniel was saying that you the only rules that you have to have three commissioners of one party but it's pretty vague as to what the other two have.
- [21:24]
Preston
It's not vague. It's not vague at all. There will be two Democrats and three Republicans that that will happen.
- [21:31]
Scott
Can one of them be an independent?
- [21:32]
Preston
The chair could be an independent. Mary Shapiro was an independent. Jay Clayton basically was an independent independent. One leaned but at the end of the day the chair is selected by the President but the other two on each side are Democrats and Republicans. So that's why you see me post that in the whole Carolyn Crenshaw thing is why can't we've been hearing for the past six months all the crypto for Harris folks, the Kratzensteins and others about it that crypto is not partisan. I actually believe it shouldn't be, but it is. And the only way it becomes nonpartisan is if the Democrats will actually put up pro innovation candidates to be at the sec. And if they can't find that then it put then it basically tells you that it's unfortunately become partisan. I hope that they will work to finding people who are believing in Democrat values of inclusivity, etc. But also support innovation because they really should be able to find people like that. I mean I personally know some Democrats who are like that. I don't know if any of them are anywhere near the list, but that's the issue. So what you Nathaniel was saying was sort of wrong. Yeah. There could be short periods of time as you're waiting where you could have you know commissions that are unbalanced, but ultimately it will be balanced. Two Democrats, two Republicans. And the chair. And the chair. We already know if assuming he's confirmed as Paul, who is a Republican. And considering that he once asked me how he thought we were going to do in the next election. We're talking about the Republicans. I'm very confident that he's a Republican.
- [23:14]
Scott
Yeah, interesting times are going to be interesting to see how it, it shakes out. Won't be the last time that I say something that's wrong or that one of my guests does. By the way, Dave, on my show, it's funny because I'm actually including me.
- [23:27]
Preston
By the way, I say plenty that's wrong. So, yeah, I get that.
- [23:30]
Scott
As I was just, as we were just talking about that, I got a bunch of messages saying that apparently I'm in trouble with the XRP army again. And I don't know why that's what's happening at the moment because Mark Yusko, I think, called them a scam on my show yesterday and I was not quick enough to correct him or something. Yeah, it's fun hosting shows, guys, because you are actually liable for everything that every guest says all the time and it naturally defaults to being your opinion. To be clear, I don't think XRP is a scam. I just don't think of XRP very often. It's fine. And I have a lot of friends who do and it's great for them. Yeah, friends gave me the heart and Danish. Well, Danish, you're now an XRP maxi, right? Like huge. You're the biggest maxi in the XRP army. You're the actual, the leader of the XRP army, aren't you?
- [24:16]
Danish
All I'm saying is whenever everybody's on something, it might be worthwhile considering owning something.
- [24:23]
Scott
I, I 100 agree with that. I, I literally, like, nothing makes me happier than seeing something that people call dead in crypto. Massively pumping a bunch of people making money. Like, even if I am, like if I had some sort of emotional feeling or my opinion on it is different. There's nothing better than people who've been underwater for a very long time coming into profit and getting to celebrate if they have been so passionate, held for so long, I don't even care what it is. Could be some meme coin I've never even heard of. Speaking of meme coins, what's the market cap of fart coin today? Anybody know? Because that's my gauge at this point for sentiment in the crypto market. Wow. 1.2 billion.
- [25:07]
Danish
Let's go 2 billion.
- [25:11]
Robbie
It must be those perps with AI16Z that just listed on OkX.
- [25:17]
Scott
This is. This is crazy. So, like, there's no. There's no retracement. There's no bear market for fart coin. Guys, somebody explained to me what's going on with Far Corn. This is one of those. Okay, Boomer moments.
- [25:26]
Danish
Value.
- [25:28]
Scott
What'd you say? I missed it? Sorry.
- [25:30]
Carlo
Culture token. It's a culture token. It was.
- [25:33]
Danish
I just thought that Far Value.
- [25:37]
Carlo
Got.
- [25:37]
Fred
A great team behind it.
- [25:40]
Scott
Is that.
- [25:41]
Carlo
Is that culture token?
- [25:43]
Scott
I mean, is it. Because farts are funny to literally everyone at every age. Like, my. My father and my father will both. Both laugh at farts, like, indiscriminately.
- [25:52]
Carlo
So it was an obvious place, Scott.
- [25:55]
Scott
I thought I fart coined, but I shitcoined. Do we get sharp coined? Is that. Is that what's coming next? That's what I want to know.
- [26:02]
Danish
Be right back, guys. Coming out soon.
- [26:07]
Scott
But there is shitcoin, right? Like, this was followed by shitcoin. I. I would love to think that I'm being as funny as I am, but now you're right.
- [26:15]
Carlo
There's been every derivative of flatulence coin you could imagine, including one that went crazy, I think. What was it called? Unicorn. Unicorn Fart dust or something.
- [26:24]
Danish
Come on.
- [26:25]
Scott
Come on, Scott.
- [26:26]
Robbie
We're all shitcoins here.
- [26:28]
Scott
I know we are, but, like, when you. It was very obvious that someone should launch one that just literally called shit. It was a unicorn. Fart dust, maybe. Is that right?
- [26:37]
Carlo
Exactly. Exactly. And it's. It's had a pretty good run.
- [26:41]
Scott
Hey, Robbie. How's Animoca, you know, investing heavily in these fart coins and unicorn. How do you guys. Approaching the memes?
- [26:49]
Robbie
We're not. Our legal department's not too fond of the idea of us launching meme coins, but. Yeah, I do think that speaking of stuff that's been around for a while in crypto and makes a comeback, it's been a good week for the NFT community. Hopefully some people on here have some cool cats, maybe.
- [27:11]
Scott
I'm sure Carlos got his hand up. Does that mean he does?
- [27:15]
Carlo
Also, more breaking news. OpenSea confirmed that an OpenSea foundation has gone live, which is the precursor that a lot of people have been speculating for an OpenSea token, which, if it happens, would reward a lot of OG NFT buyers on the OpenSea platform. So a huge stimulus is potentially coming, which is only going to continue to rise NFT floors, like Robby is saying.
- [27:39]
Danish
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Robbie
And I mean, obviously Budgie was a big story this week and the launch of their abstract chain impending. And so I think it's just nice to see all of these communities that have been around a while starting to be part of more current narratives again, whether it's because of existing collections that have been revitalized or because they're starting to deploy new stuff to the existing communities community.
- [28:05]
Scott
I, I honestly haven't looked. How is pengu? Is that how you pronounce it? Pengu? How's. How's that performed since the drop?
- [28:13]
Carlo
It corrected a little bit, yeah, but it's rebounding nicely.
- [28:17]
Robbie
And I think it was a great example too, because the way that LUCA designed the, the airdrop, I mean, it was designed in a really sort of web3 native way of trying to be inclusive and to recognize all of the communities that have contributed to the overall NFT ecosystem. I think that was actually very smart because I'm a big believer in, you know, the more decentralization, ultimately, the more, you know, value you're going to accrue to that token over time.
- [28:46]
Scott
Speaking of things that have had a raging comeback, bitcoin is currently green on the day only by about $20, but for all the pain and suffering of this morning, and we'll see how the day closes, but bitcoin is now trading at $97,450 after going as low as like 92ish even when I woke up this morning. So quite, quite a quick potential reversal here, I guess, lending us to wonder if this was just yet another massive panic. Bitcoin retraces 14%. Altcoins take their 40, 30, 40, 50% dip and then onwards and upwards. Dave, I saw you lift your mic. That's got to be red meat for you.
- [29:22]
Preston
Yeah, I mean, look, we all know that I think these are squiggles and, and it is what it is, but you can't help but look at V actions like this on a Friday going into the weekend as trade at the same time as the funding rates. And all the. Not all, but the vast majority of perpetual swap contracts are well below normal and in many cases negative, which is indicative that people are pressing shorts. You know, it certainly feels like whatever has been happening, this is definitely a level here where there's more demand and you don't really want to short into it. So all the people who. There are a lot of people who are calling for 92 to buy back in, I think the three people who managed to get some orders filled by those stink bids, God bless them, But I think that most of the people who had money sitting on the sidelines are going to. If it doesn't, if it stays around these levels at some point, you know, next week or so though, they'll probably give up and say, okay, fine, I can't get what I want done at those levels. We're not going to see that retracement. But we'll see. I mean, look, you and I both know that, that this doesn't. This is not top behavior. That's all. That's all I have to say. It's not top market behavior. It feels like you're kind of in. In the middle of a pause. And we bounce around here for a while and then we see what happens. I mean, even reading Arthur Hayes's last missive, which I love Arthur's stuff, but there was a huge disconnect between most of what he wrote and his conclusion, which is kind of interesting. And I'm curious if anyone else had noticed that basically everything he was saying is long term, massively bullish for Bitcoin. But then he says, well, it's going to dump around Trump's inauguration without a whole lot of reasoning. I'm curious, you know, what people think about that, because it feels like. And he wrote that before this most recent dump, so who knows if this is what he was talking about.
- [31:24]
Scott
Yeah, I'm trying to find the exact words that he used. I've talked about it a bunch of times, of course, can't remember at this moment, but basically his argument, Dave, was that we've priced in all of the insane bullishness and things that have been promised by the new administration coming in, and that price could pull back, even if. Harrowing dump was the term, by the way. Harrowing dump. So, like, if all those things don't happen in the first few weeks, do we panic and sell? I. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that was.
- [31:54]
Preston
Well, I mean, the thing is, is, first of all, there are two things that are not priced in. There's. I don't believe there will be a bitcoin strategic reserve where we actually go buy stuff or that we're going to hear. I think maybe we hear about something in three to six months. But certainly anyone who believes that there's going to be a day one executive order. Yeah, okay, that's some disappointment, I'll grant that. But the fact that the SEC and the CFTC are going to back off the bullshit and allow the financial system to trade and offer services, there will be a land grab. It Is impossible for me to believe that there are not people at my ex firm Citigroup or Morgan Stanley or at Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs bragged about it, you know, a couple days ago. Every single broker dealer, and we're talking tens of thousands of financial advisors that are, there are, there are all going to be able to offer bitcoin trading in the next administration and there's no way in hell that's priced in. I'm sorry, it just isn't. The fact is I went this morning just to test it out on a different plat on a platform and tried to buy a bitwise ETF and it told me it was a restricted security that is going to end that is not priced in. So as big as the ETFs. Look, now understand there are huge percentages of the world who cannot buy them. In fact, even in Charles Schwab, you have to click cryptocurrency has excess risk stuff needed to buy it. It being normalized is not in the price. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Maybe it'll be in the price if we get to 250 or so. Maybe, but it's not in the price here. So that's where he's wrong.
- [33:37]
Danish
Can you hear me, Scott?
- [33:38]
Scott
Just want to.
- [33:40]
Danish
Yeah. So really quickly I will say this. It's going to upset people. I don't care. Microstrategy continues to be way overpriced. We continue to see some of these other things. But the one thing we know this morning is that this entire move was a macro move that was connected to Powell's comments today. The PCE came in and that's why we saw an immediate bounce back. This is all about the macro moves. And clearly PCE came in lower than expected, which is rare because usually the analysts can.
- [34:22]
Scott
Now I lost you okay, we lost Danish there.
- [34:28]
Danish
I'm back.
- [34:29]
Preston
You're back.
- [34:29]
Danish
I was gonna say. I was just gonna say that. The important part is that the PCE is what's driving this entire move this morning. And I think that it's gonna continue to do so because there's no data that's gonna be coming out between now. So the GDP data plus Powell kind of scared the market a little bit. But remember, they don't have a choice. They have to keep cutting. They may cut a little bit slower until Trump comes in, but as soon as Trump comes in, he's going to want to cut the rates. That's what he wants. He wants that low rate QE regime because he needs the number to go up so he feels good about himself inside. So ultimately we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think this was the last sort of try by Powell and it's already over. It's going to be a rapid recovery. We're going to continue to see this move forward. I am not worried about it. But I will say if you are dumb enough to do a lever trade on bitcoin, you got what you deserve. And if you continue to bet on Microstrategy, you're going to in the long run lose money. Not because bitcoin goes up, because of the premium on navigation goes down. Just be very, very careful.
- [35:48]
Scott
Danish and such a spoiler and it just go up forever. And we can all just rave about how amazing Michael Saylor is and he can have his 100k party on new Year's that I'm not at all bitter. I can't go to even though I was invited but I'm going to be away on family vacation. Can't we just have good things? Donnish have nice things. You were saying Price and Ave. Go ahead.
- [36:11]
Nickel
No, I was just joking. 100 price nav. That just keeps expanding. It outpaces Bitcoin for the rest of time.
- [36:18]
Scott
Whatever. It could happen. Nickel. Anything could happen. Dave, how much? I have to imagine that on this drop he's saying it's all macro but it always tends to align with huge leverage flushes. I saw in a couple hours it was 1.2 billion or something. Crazy. So once again people were heavily over levered loss.
- [36:37]
Preston
Yeah, it's true. I mean look, I agree with most of what Donna said except I think on microstrategy it doesn't go to the moon.
- [36:44]
Danish
No.
- [36:44]
Preston
Trees don't grow to the sky. The leverage doesn't continue. But people will pay for and by the way, this is going to change and six months from now it probably won't be needed. But if you want to have a. And I know this sounds crazy, but a conservatively levered exposure to bitcoin that somebody else manages that you don't have to sit there and deal with yourself. Microstrategy makes sense. That's what it. That's what it is. I mean it's not 20 to one lever. It's you know, his based on. Based on what we've ever seen. It's like two or three to one and is that worth it? You know? And do people want to do that also understand that at some point next year this will change. But if you want to and because I did this, I Literally, you know, went through all my accounts and at every one of the brokerage accounts that I have and every one of the majors, you can buy MicroStrategy no problem. But when you want to try to buy the Bitcoin etf, a lot of them either make you sign things or won't let you. And so understand that there are some other impetuses to MicroStrategy. And we know he's been selling stock and we know that that's going to end at some point in the not so distant future. I actually would take the other side of Dhanush's bet in the intermediate, immediate term, not in the. In the long term, though I agree with them. I mean, in the long term, if you can manage it yourself, you're obviously way better off and you're paying a premium. I just don't know how big the premium you're paying with MicroStrategy, then Nichols point is also really true. It is not a to the moon deal. You can't continue to outperform forever. And the bigger you get, the harder it is, the more you have to pyramid in order to get those returns. So it's not sustainable at that rate. But it's still not a. It's still a reasonable play at some premium to nav. I don't know where that premium is.
- [38:37]
Danish
But Dave, as we get regulatory clarity and it becomes easier to trade Bitcoin yourself, microstrategy becomes irrelevant, it regresses back. And that is what's going to happen. And by the way, that's coming in the next six months. So I thought. I agree. Six months ahead.
- [39:00]
Preston
I do, I do. Well, look, I like to be honest with people, right? You know, we have people in the audience who know, you know, they all know I'm a bitcoin bull. I am long microstrategy. I'm not irresponsibly long it, but I am long it. And I don't expect to be long it forever. I expect it to be a way of stacking sats. And what you just said is exactly the point. And you know, if I miss the. A bit of reversion six months from now or nine months from now when this really starts, okay, fine. But I do think we have months, at least a quarter or two before we are looking down the barrel of that. And I think if I believe, which I do, that Bitcoin is going to go up in the next couple of quarters. Substantively, I think MicroStrategy will, will benefit. And it's just people should be aware of what they're buying. It's like anytime people invest, there's so many different interconnected financial products here. But you and I both know that it's not binary. And unfortunately, when people hear what you say or what I say, they interpret it as binary and it isn't. It depends on your time horizon, but it is safer to buy MicroStrategy than to go 50x long on a perpetual swap and it's going to leave it there to get liquidated. And that's that. That's really the only point that I was trying to make. I don't think we disagree all that much, Donnis, to be honest.
- [40:22]
Nickel
Yeah, my biggest question mark is like, does this product even continue to trade at a premium in the future? I just look at it as like, hey, you don't have any underlying legal right to that bitcoin. You're taking massive counterparty risk. The biggest thing bitcoin was supposed to get rid of was counterparty risk. So I just don't even know if this is a product that even deserves to be trading at a premium to the amount of bitcoin they have. That's a big question I ask, obviously.
- [40:53]
Preston
But you're a counterparty risk on every perpetual swap. And since Arthur invented them, there's been 5x the volume in perpetual swaps than there has been in spot.
- [41:05]
Nickel
Sorry, Dave. What I was saying would be more from the fundamental thesis that a lot of people are buying microstrategy right now as a substitute to buying bitcoin and thinking they're getting some kind of more direct proxy. And a lot of the volume going into microstrategy right now is for people who don't have a better way to allocate to that bitcoin. But I take your point. If you're just using it at the leverage play, then I think that's a great use case for it.
- [41:32]
Danish
Well, also it's about the fact that he's able to borrow money that you can't borrow. So you're essentially paying a premium because he has access to financing. That premium is on the long term value to growth. But again, running even 20% above nav makes okay sense. Maybe 50% above nav. Okay, fine. Guys, we're talking about multiples on nav. This is like, this is bubblish. This is stupidity. I'm sorry I have to use those words, but it's clearly that this makes no sense. Access to financing is not worth that much.
- [42:09]
Fred
Danish, have you. It seems like everybody isn't taking in the core business strategy of MicroStrategy. You know, the way they earned revenue before they became a bitcoin company.
- [42:22]
Danish
What percentage of their revenue today comes from that? Or were you kidding? I apologize. I'm not sure. I can't tell. Fred, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic because literally totally 100%.
- [42:35]
Fred
I was just hoping maybe someone could tell me what they did used to do before they became a bitcoin company.
- [42:40]
Scott
Business software services. And I think it's still a multi hundred millions of dollars a year business but obviously a fraction of the accounts for a fraction of the market cap. Yeah. I mean does anybody else have a passionate opinion on how things end for MicroStrategy? I mean Dave, you basically. We've talked about this a lot but I mean you basically said unless they become insolvent, you know, the stock will go down but it's not like they're going to break, right?
- [43:11]
Preston
No, I mean look what Danish and I were both kind of sort of getting towards agreement on is I think that The Premium and MicroStrategy will decrease over time. The question of how violently that is is obviously on the margins and when that happens, but that it's fundamental accumulation strategy of monetizing volatility to be able to borrow crazy cheap in dollars and be able to buy bitcoin which is not going to depreciate and it's going to do the opposite is fundamentally going to be attractive for a while. And that's fine. I mean, but at some point, yeah, I mean it's not. Look, anyone who believes that, you know that bitcoin going from 50,000 to 100,000 and microstrategy 4xing, you know, 4xing or 8xing or whatever it did and that if bitcoin goes from 100 to 200 to do another 8x in the same with the same ratio, they're out of their minds. The ratio is going to decrease over time and eventually be underperforming. That that is just math. You can't change that. It will be that it's a, you know, it's. Every fund that has ever existed becomes a victim of its own size. Right. And so you just need to understand that that does not mean, that's why it's not a binary question at this instant in time. Have he, have they reached saturation? I don't think so. I don't think they're. They're that, even that, even that close. But you have to ask yourself is the company that pioneered a strategy where there's Very little barrier to entry going to be worth more than Apple because of what they can do. And the answer might be, I mean, BlackRock is the company isn't worth. The weird thing is this is the company stock. I mean, BlackRock's company stock is not worth $10 trillion. Right. But they have $10 trillion worth of assets. So at some point one has to ask the question is, what's the pass through here? Right? And so there's all these sorts of math that you have to go through, through to do this. It is, it is. I am not a. Look, I own it. So it's not like I'm bearish. But you do have to be realistic. And a lot of the people, and this is Danish's point, I think he's right. A lot of the people who buy it, you know, with like titles like irresponsibly long MSTR in their, in their Twitter handle, and I'm sure I'm getting some hate from that, don't understand what they're actually owning. And as long as you understand what you're owning, it's fine. And, and Saylor has done, he's been incredibly on it and his value in terms of promoting Bitcoin is amazing and has put his money where his mouth is. But he also managed to people, you got to give him credit. He managed this through that incredibly huge drawdown of 70% without blinking. And you got to give credit for that, no matter how you want to slice it. So people, when you talk about counterparty risk, nickel, and people look at it go, wait a minute, you know, it went from 60,000 to 17,000 in Microsoft.
- [46:07]
Scott
And he was down 50%. Right. I mean, I think his cost basis was slightly over 30 when it was down to, you know, Bitcoin was slightly above 15.
- [46:16]
Preston
Exactly. So, you know, as I said, there's lots of ebbs and flows here. And then there are Maxis who will say, well, wait a minute, they're going to own too much. And if you think MicroStrategy owns too much, 10 years from now, the amount of Bitcoin that's going to be owned, owned in as being part of index funds and other financial products because it's easier for people until such a time as you can log into your Coinbase account or your Kraken account or your Gemini account and designate people as beneficiaries and know that there's that, that there's a, that it's just as insured and just as safe for your beneficiaries as a brokerage. Account until that's fixed. Yeah, there's a use case here and so you got all those cross currents. So anyway, I'm talking way too much, so I'm going to shut up now.
- [47:01]
Nickel
Yeah, and I totally take your point. It's one of the biggest things I always say when we have this discussion. I'm not saying it as an Bitcoin is going to drop 20%. It's going to blow up microstrategy. I mean, I think that time period you're talking about is perfect proof that this strategy is obviously a lot more robust in ways than many people give it credit for. I think mine is more on, like, people who are saying, I want to get bitcoin and therefore I own this vehicle. I'm not exactly what you said. I think that multiple compresses and I think that ultimately leads to some underperformance. And I also think the reason for that is because there's going to be more appetite for better products that give them more direct access to that bitcoin. And yeah, there's a lot of really cool ways selfish plug to be able to do stuff like that. We're just getting that started over with what I'm doing, being able to do beneficiaries and get actual accounts. So lots of cool stuff happening on that front. I think we're about to see a boom in that kind of stuff.
- [47:54]
Scott
I know we're coming into, like the last section of the show, but there are actually a couple of stories I just want to share and we can kind of choose if we want to talk about them before we wrap up. Obviously, SEC approved the first hybrid bitcoin eth etf, which I have, which we've listed above in the title. But we didn't talk about the fact that the British High Court sentenced Craig Wright to 12 months in prison for being the world's biggest LARP and claiming that he is the Nakamoto, the dude. Nobody has taken more voluntary beatings in history than Craig Wright. Like, just going to court, spending money, suing people for things that are easily to disprove and just getting beaten down. But now apparently the guy is going to go to jail for a year for claiming to be stoshi Nakamoto. Another one. United States reject SBF's conviction appeal. So he's going to be in jail with Diddy and Luigi and they're all in jail together, starting a team of some sort. And el Salvador buys 11 bitcoin a day after the IMF deal. This one is really interesting to me and Simon, you probably have an opinion on this, but obviously bitcoiner just split on this, Right? Because effectively, El Salvador making bitcoin legal tender, the IMF and World bank push back. So they're never getting a loan while bitcoin is legal tender. And of course, Bukele kind of laughed in their faces and said, I'll do bitcoin bonds and we'll proceed. And bitcoin will say, save us. And that has largely happened, but now has taken a large loan from the IMF with some concessions about bitcoin. But then the day after the news comes out, basically saying, I'm going to take the money the IMF is loaning.
- [49:36]
Carlo
Me and buy more bitcoin with it.
- [49:39]
Scott
Could anybody unpack this for me? Because it's astounding. Simon, you go first.
- [49:45]
Simon
Yeah, well, firstly, the. Yeah, I mean, so what were the. The. He borrowed 3.5 billion. Can you hear me?
- [49:53]
Carlo
Okay?
- [49:54]
Simon
Okay. So, yeah, he took this.
- [49:57]
Scott
Do you guys hear Simon?
- [49:59]
Simon
Can anyone else hear me?
- [50:00]
Danish
Yeah, Yeah, I can hear.
- [50:01]
Scott
Okay. I'm just gonna be quiet and Donna. Sure. You take over hosting duties when Simon's done for the moment.
- [50:08]
Simon
Okay, cool. Yeah. So there's the 3.5 billion, which I think is a huge disappointment. I hate the fact that El Salvador is still continuing to take IMF money. IMF money comes with massive strings, and if you haven't learned that lesson by now, that's the most likely cause of a regime change, because that's what normally happens when you take the IMF money. Suddenly your government's overthrown and you end up like Syria. But I'm not saying that that's going to happen. But he's taken the 3.5 billion. I went over there to work on the bitcoin bond. We launched one at bank to the Future in 2014. The first Bitcoin bond in the world. And so I'm hugely disappointed that he didn't do it. It was initially delayed because of the bad market, and then he got into the good market. And with what Michael Saylor's doing today, it would be, you know, a massive, you know, proof of concept that the country can raise money independent of the IMF and the Belt and Road Initiative, that changes the world rapidly. If. If a country that has suffered civil wars and, you know, massive US intervention and CIA operations and all the traumas that a country like El Salvador has been through, and you could prove that you could raise finance, restructure your debt independent of China and America, and do the bitcoin bond. I was really Excited about that project. But it seems like the IMF obviously has some kind of leverage. That meant that they had to do the scale back and take the 3.5 billion from the economic hitmen and financial terrorists at the imf. But anyway, the scale back was unwind Chivo wallet, I think, or whatever that means. So Chivo wallet was the government issued onboarding and offboarding, no big deal. He's got a tax haven, so he should be able to bring bitcoin businesses to fulfill onboarding and offboarding and then make legal tender voluntary, which are no big deal. It was kind of voluntary anyway. You can't really force someone and no one's going to be enforced in order to accept bitcoin if they don't want to accept it. And it's against the bitcoin ethos anyway. But I do think it was a, you know, I don't think it definitely. You couldn't take the IMF money and directly buy a larger amount of bitcoin. So those would have been different pockets of money. And I think Bekele is kind of like the concept of having to play the existing system at the same time as build an alternative system and so decided to coincide the announcement with buying more than the one bitcoin and bought a million dollars worth of bitcoin, which I think is kind of saving grace just to try and let the world know, look, I have to listen to the terrorists, unfortunately. I'm a president. I have to play adult sometimes. And, you know, maybe this stops me getting assassinated, but I still want to send a signal to the bitcoin community that I can still buy, you know, I can still buy a million dollars worth of bitcoin. So I think that was all it's about. It's just the challenges of being a bitcoin country while trying to actually ensure you have relationships with the international powers that have the power to overthrow your government if you get it wrong.
- [53:51]
Scott
Yeah. For anyone who wants to learn more about that behavior that you were just. That you were just describing, there was a great book. It's from 2007. So it's outdated, but the history is still accurate. It's called the Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. Talking about the way that the imf, World bank and the United States government and CIA effectively have gone in and taken over many, many countries in the name of. Of very large loans. It's not. Not a surprising behavior. And I've said before, and Simon would discuss this, but El Salvador was always in a unique position because they're dollarized Right. So the United States couldn't attack their currency. Their currency is the dollar. So they were one of the only countries at that time that could ever have adopted Bitcoin as legal tender and gotten away with it to some degree.
- [54:36]
Danish
Yeah.
- [54:36]
Simon
And that's always been the model, just in case you don't know. If you read books like Covert Regime Change, it goes through all the declassified CIA documents where you know, they literally America created terrorism and funds all these fake terrorist groups and calls them Muslims and stuff when they were actually CIA, Mossad and MI6 operations. And it's still haunting us to this day, still confusing people. And then if you read the book like Confessions of an Economic Hitman, you can understand how the idea is that you, you try and bankrupt a company through IMF debt that they know they can never, they can never change. And then the regime change comes if you don't implement a debt based Ponzi scheme. Central bank from the bank for International Settlements. The bank for International Settlements was an organization that was created at the Treaty of Versailles after World War I in order to redistribute all of Germany's debts and all of the gold that was confiscated. And so this was, you know, bank for International Settlements has been a mechanism for stealing countries gold. And then you have this IMF which is to get countries deep into debt. If you don't do what they say, then you end up with a covert regime change through CIA funded Mossad funded and MI6 funded state terrorism. And then they have to print their currency through their own central bank in order to try and pay off some of their dollar debts, which is like the dollar milkshake theory that we're experiencing in real time when our countries can no longer invest in their own infrastructure because they're essentially buying treasuries and lending it to the US government, which is the organization that created the destabilization in the region in the first place in order to try and create some stability for their currency. And so yeah, one way around that is to just adopt the dollar and then implementing Bitcoin as legal tender just hits upon the. Really gets to the root cause of a kind of a break from the IMF system and everything that comes with it.
- [56:58]
Danish
Yeah, sorry, not to change the subject, but just want everybody that's listening to know live. Bitcoin has retraced all of its losses from this.
- [57:09]
Scott
That's green.
- [57:10]
Danish
It's actually now trading. It's green. And I'm not a Chartist. I know you are Scott, but it looks like, we have a pattern developing that could be very bullish. Hammer, like a. Yeah, yeah. And so it's, it's, it looks very interesting and I think it's like, it's one of those things where if you. In our, in our morning show, I, I was mentioning about how I think it's not just like one George Noble, very well known, if you guys know he is, was on the show this morning. He was like, well, you know, you shouldn't buy unbelief and this and that. He tried to. People tried to make me.
- [57:45]
Preston
I.
- [57:46]
Danish
It was funny because Simon and I were on the same side just being like, no, no, this is not belief, it's just mad. But, but interestingly, those of us that saw this and saw, oh, this is just a macro movement. Yes, the folks got liquidated. They were leveraged. This is clearly going to reverse trend. We're saying that there were quote, unquote chartists coming and saying, oh, this is an awful time to dca. And what I will tell everybody is if I have learned anything from all of my mistakes, it's when everybody tells you it's an awful time to dca. Go dca. It's the perfect time to dca.
- [58:25]
Scott
Fred.
- [58:27]
Fred
I just wanted to bring up something on the Craig Wright thing really quickly because it's personal. Nchain came after one of my clients and used Craig Wright and their former CEO Stefan Matthews, who's no longer there anymore, and filed all this stuff about how great and trustworthy they were. And I threw that Copa action right back in their effing face. And then now that I can go back in the same case and be like, by the way, that guy's going to jail. I know it's a suspended sentence, but it's still there. And just take him and his company to shreds. Made my day. I was very happy.
- [59:07]
Scott
Hey, Mickle, your friends are really mad at me on the Internet. Can you tell them?
- [59:12]
Nickel
Oh, for the, for the Mark youth go thing?
- [59:14]
Scott
Yeah, they're very upset.
- [59:16]
Nickel
No, they're not mad at you. They're mad at me.
- [59:18]
Scott
Oh, no, they're mad at me. I love it. Honestly, man, nothing to the xrp. It is entertaining in general sometimes to accidentally trigger any community in crypto.
- [59:31]
Nickel
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think after going through the entire Ripple SEC case and kind of feeling attacked for so long, the community's definitely a bit on edge. But I think that kind of calms down when people feel like everything's kind of on a level playing field. So I totally get that. Yeah, I posted crazy comment, though. Crazy comment. Brad. Brad Garlinghouse a scammer. I think that's probably a bit over the line.
- [60:00]
Scott
Yeah, I got in a lot of trouble when. So you. I said this earlier, but when you host a show, everyone, you know, people have all kinds of comments and nobody cares when people call things a scam or say negative things about something until it's like your thing. Right. So, like, I got in a lot of trouble when David Hoffman was on my show once upon a time from Bankless, and I think he called Ada or scam or something. And apparently, like, I much like Jerome Powell, I sneezed in the wrong direction or my eyes slightly changed color, which meant I was in full agreement or I didn't push back hard enough. And so like the Cardano people hated me for years because somebody said something on my show. It happens.
- [60:37]
Nickel
Yeah, no, it's a tough to position to be in because obviously you're just having them on the show. They can say whatever they want. But I do think it's weird to even be like, throwing around that language from someone in his position. I mean, it's one thing to not like a project and there's one thing to take issue with things, but to go out and be outright calling some of these things scams. I mean, just take a look at like the size of the community and people like building on Cardano, building on the XRP ledger. I mean, I mean, it's pretty incredible. Incredible. So to be that dismissive, I don't. I don't love the language at all. I think calling people like Brad Garlinghouse a scammer is a little insane, especially after he was vindicated in the Ripple Sec case. But making that fall on you doesn't make any sense.
- [61:18]
Scott
Yeah, I just posted a picture of me wearing XRP socks if it helps anyone. That's hilarious, Casey. I saw it. You know.
- [61:26]
Nickel
No, no, no. I think a lot of the community, Scott, like, really appreciates your show. A lot of people really like the way that you're giving everyone, like a chance to come on and kind of talk about these things, and you're not kind of perpetuating a lot of the things that push certain communities away. So I think you're doing an excellent job.
- [61:44]
Scott
Thank you. And your check is in the mail. But honestly, I've tried to get Brad for ages. Just haven't been able to get him on the show. And I would love to have Brad and, you know, listen, just because I'm not like, as equally passionate I guess as some are. Nobody is about the thing that everybody else loves and that doesn't mean that anything wrong with it. Definitely you should give, you should give.
- [62:06]
Nickel
David Schwarz a try. He would be a great person to talk to and I think he's a little bit easier to get on those interviews. So you should also give him a shot.
- [62:15]
Scott
Just feel, feel hurt, you know, feel like I tried. I did once at Masari main Net I did the Dunk tank with Ryan Selus and Brad Garlinghouse and we kept joking because Selus was in the D dunk tank and I was holding. It sounds bad but it was the joke. I was holding Brad's balls. So I was holding the balls for him and he would take them and then he would go try to knock Selches in the tank and eventually we just ran up there and hit it. So there's all these videos of me holding Brad's balls once upon a time that went kind of viral.
- [62:47]
Nickel
So you know, yeah, this has been. Selkis has been flip flopping back and forth on Brad like a. They were like best friends or something.
- [62:55]
Scott
They were like best friends. I was there like that was my story main Net probably two years ago and I October. I mean it was pretty peak bear market if I recall. But like they were definitely best buddies.
- [63:05]
Nickel
Yeah, he hated him and then liked him and now he seems like he's throwing tantrums on X again again about him. So it's kind of interesting to watch that development. But yeah, who knows? I, I thought that was kind of funny. I did see that dunk tank thing. So that's, that's an awesome story. But yeah, they seemed like they got along. Now they don't get along anymore. So what a funny kind of dynamic that as bad.
- [63:25]
Scott
Yeah, I mean at the, at the end of the day, in all seriousness, I think you know, and I said this throughout the entire sort of XRP saga with the sec. Regardless of your thoughts on that token or any other, like I think we were all in it together against the SEC and Ripple played a huge role. Everybody, regardless of the thought, should have been cheering for them because they really kind of led the charge here. That has allowed the entire crypto industry to push back, I think against regulators largely. Big, big reason that, you know, we all feel much more comfortable trading all coins and definitely a huge reason that you know, I think there's going to end up being regime change here because people were so fed up with that behavior. You know, I remember a lot of credit for fighting back.
- [64:09]
Nickel
I Remember when the SEC first filed the case, the biggest narrative in the in like the entire crypto community was that it's impossible to beat the sec. No one beats the sec. Ripple is done. It's over. Not a single person could come out of the SEC with a win. And just take a look how the mindset has changed from the entire crypto industry since that win. Now it's like everyone's like, okay, like, we feel comfortable going toe to toe and fighting our case. We feel comfortable deploying some of these resources because now there's been a playbook in place and proof that this can actually be done. So I think it's been critically important to just giving a lot of these other people who have been facing these challenges with the SEC kind of the ability to feel like, hey, we can come out of this with a win and we can stand up to the agency.
- [64:56]
Scott
Totally. And now it's 11:23 and we gotta go end the show, wrap it for the week. Gonna be interesting to see where we come back during the holidays. And these assets are trading at bitcoin once again now at 97 6. Basically the same price the day opened at yesterday. Far cry from the 108 where we were. But if this continues going up, we're all going to giggle at the carnage and say, oh, it was just a 14 correction. Usually we get 30 corrections in the bull market. We know how this game, how this game, how this game ends. I think we all agree that nothing but tailwinds and better, better things ahead. Thank you so much to all of our guests, for all of you, of course, for listening, especially the XRP army, who I, I do so deeply love and have deep affection for. You're the best. And once again, follow everybody on stage. I say it every time, but I strangely don't see 5,000 extra followers for all of our guests each day. So follow them, they're great. They're up here because we view them as an authority and great conversation. And I gotta tell you, it's hard to show up five days a week and do these shows, whether spaces, YouTube, whatever. Like, guests are giving freely of their time and their opinions and putting themselves out there and all deserve a follow. So everybody have a great weekend. We will hopefully be back on Monday. The next few weeks obviously are going to be up and down depending on holiday timing and where we are as hosts, but we're trying to be as consistent as possible. Thanks everyone. Have an amazing weekend and a great holiday. If we don't see it. Bye.