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- [00:01]
Scott
The bitcoin rush starts now, not just from governments or individuals, but very, very heavily from businesses and even very small businesses. They've actually been the largest net buyer, of course, led by microstrategy or just strategy in bitcoin buying so far this year. We're going to talk about that trend and everything else that's happening in the macro. It's another amazing macro Monday here with James, Dave and Mike.
- [00:27]
Dave
Let's go. Let's do.
- [00:42]
Scott
Let's dope is Memorial Day in the United States of America, meaning that markets are not open and most people are barbecuing and drinking beer. But we are so deeply committed to macro Monday that all four of us Americans are here in the morning to celebrate Macro Monday. We've got Dave, Mike and James. Good morning, gentlemen.
- [01:06]
Mike
Morning.
- [01:07]
Dave
Good morning.
- [01:08]
Mike
How are you, sir?
- [01:10]
Scott
No morning meeting today, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing to talk about.
- [01:14]
James
Mike had a morning meeting. He had his.
- [01:17]
Scott
Mike had a morning meeting with us at 9am Eastern Standard Time.
- [01:22]
Mike
But what's on the road we are the morning. But we all see what happened came out Sunday last night about Trump pulling back a little bit. It's amazing how he's emboldened with tariffs when stock market goes up and he pulls back when stock goes down. There's a direct connection there. But the things that struck me that are already not known knowns on the tape, I don't think our audience expects us to read the headlines is the things they might not know. And that's the headline got off of Bloomberg this morning pointing out China's BYD is offering price discounts of 10 to 34% across 22 car models in response to weakness in both demand and market share. Now that's a global situation. Remember US and some European, Japanese countries are pushing back in byd, but there's massive deflationary forces there. And I just want to trickle down some other headlines related Chinese EV stocks tumble after BYD slashes prices as much as 34% and Z Mull's new Made in China plan despite US call to rebalance try trying to pick up some more manufacturing in China for more technologically advanced products. This is the exact opposite what Mr. Trump is trying to do. So some interesting stuff hitting the tape this morning that might not be already known knowns and priced in the market.
- [02:35]
Scott
But largely what's driving the market at the moment in the immediate is the Trump tariff tantrums.
- [02:40]
James
Right.
- [02:40]
Scott
So we had a few days ago, basically he said 50% across the board on Europe, it's going to start, I believe he said June 1. He said that they were not being operating in good faith, not negotiating. Then he had a meeting with the president of the European Union, I believe, not technically exactly sure what her title is. And then he said we're going to delay till July. And of course that was on a Sunday. And markets back up. Bitcoin bounce even right when that happened. Right.
- [03:07]
James
Well, what day was it that he said buy the stock market. It's going up a couple weeks ago.
- [03:12]
Dave
That was right at the Pico Bottom. Yeah, literally. Literally called the bottom, which, which I made the bottom. He created the bottom. Yeah, created the bottom. And he told his followers and it's like this great wealth transfer effect. If you are a follower of Trump and you believe him, then you bought and you made money. And if you have TDS and you say nothing this man says is right. He's obviously full of. You didn't, but you didn't believe he was going to actually make it true. And so you got, you got your face ripped off if you were short. So it's, it was actually kind poetic in a way. I mean, honestly, it's not the kind of thing we really want the leader of the free world to be doing. But it is funny, no matter how you want to slice it.
- [03:59]
James
Focus on the stock market.
- [04:01]
Dave
He's talking about macroeconomics for a second. I just have a question, Mike. So, you know, I, every once in a while I like to look at the Baltic dry index to know what's going on in shipping. And it, I, I find it and I'm curious if, if your guys care. I mean, it, it looks like, you know, if you do the weekly. It's kind of been in the same range since 2024. It, it, you know, it had obviously during the, the start of the tariff tantrum, it was, you know, well down, but it recovered in there. It doesn't, it's not, but it doesn't look like anything bad. You would expect that if, if global trade was getting crushed that it would be exactly so that it would be below this, this, this line that, that Scott has drawn here. And I'm just curious because, you know, it seems to me that what's actually happening is a whole lot of nothing. Lots of posturing, lots of screaming, you know, William Faulkner sound and a fury signifying nothing. I mean, that's what it feels like. I mean, you know, are any of the people at Bloomberg talking about, about what's happening in the real economy or is this all we're all just trying to anticipate what, what's going on.
- [05:11]
Mike
I appreciate the mention of the Baltic Dry Index. It was something Dennis Gartman was way on top of about a decade ago. It worked. It worked. And then when anybody start watching it stop working as an indication. Now we all know there's major distortions with costs and prices of shipping goods, partly with wars and things in, in Europe. I stopped looking at it years ago. It's just not a good leading indicator for me. What's happening in commodities and the macro for commodities is crude oil is going down and gold's going up. So the only reason the Bloomberg commodity Index is up maybe 5,6% on year is because the highest weight is gold. And gold's up 30% this year. That's driving everything. Standard commodities are down, crude oil is collapsing, and industrial metals are just kind of hanging in there. So to me, it's all about the next shoe to drop. And we all know what's happening in China. That's why I'm still more in that.
- [06:02]
Dave
No, I, I understand. I just. Let me rephrase the question because I'm not talking about it as leading indicator. It's a coincident indicator. I agree with you exactly. I'm just saying that nothing major is changing yet.
- [06:14]
Mike
No, right.
- [06:15]
Dave
And maybe you're right. Maybe it's, maybe it's certain things are down in price and therefore, you know, things are down. But at the same time, maybe because oil is down, you know, trade is fine, you know, other than that. So I. Look, I don't know what to make of it. That's why I was asking another.
- [06:31]
James
Yeah, another, another thing that people have been about is just the lack of travelers in the United States. But here's the travel index, you know, the TSA checkpoint numbers. So this is the number of people that's going through the checkpoint in tsa. But look at this versus the five year. I mean, this is still on a really steep upward trend here. You know, I mean, it did fall off initially in the beginning of the year, but you can see that happens every year. It's initial fall off after the end of the end of the year travel. People have already done all their holiday travel and then it falls off. So this, this was, you know, not a really big indicator and it's typical.
- [07:10]
Dave
So it's, it's. Look, Palm Beach International Airport was, was perfectly full of. My flight yesterday was full. But, you know, that doesn't matter. We'll see tomorrow. You know.
- [07:22]
James
From, from airport to airport, you Know, especially someplace like here in Vegas. I mean, it'll be a little bit busier with all the bitcoin people coming in. It's kind of like, you know, when CES is here, it's a madhouse, you know, but you, from, you know, city to city thing, it just depends. It's hard to tell in one spot.
- [07:41]
Dave
But if all this is true, then, you know, effectively that to me says that, that earnings won't be the catastrophe that a lot of people are thinking, which is probably why the market's where it is. And I don't believe these are leading indicators, really. I mean, I, I think it's more like, yeah, you know, there's lots of, lots of yelling and screaming. But the reason people are asking why, I mean, I've been asked on, on X so many times, why do you think the market's holding in here? And I think the reason markets are holding in here is people aren't experiencing any of the pain. And so they're like, well, where the hell else do I put my money? I mean, that, that's what I'm talking about, the stock market. Bitcoin is a different thing. You know, bitcoin I think we have to get to. But, you know, it's just, but as I said, I'm just curious more than anything else.
- [08:24]
James
Yeah. And Mike, I can't remember if you, maybe you saw this last week too, but BlackRock's one of their head of fixed income portfolio managers or analysts. I can't remember who it was. Maybe you'll remember. I saw it last week. But he was warning, he was on Bloomberg. He was warning the mark. He's like, don't fade this. If you think we're going into recession, we're not seeing those numbers and we're not seeing that the problems in credit that would, that would typically come with, that are associated with the beginning of a recession. We're just not seeing it yet. So. And it's, we're not, it's, it's interesting, but maybe it's just because it just continues to have, we continue to have liquidity expansion. So. And that's, and that's it. If you have liquidity expansion across the world, it just keeps driving, you know.
- [09:14]
Scott
At least 5% 30 year. I mean, 5% yields on the 30 year isn't at least a slight canary in the coal mine.
- [09:20]
Dave
Yeah, but.
- [09:21]
James
Okay, so if you, but if you, if you read through it and you, and you think, think about where you've seen term premium rise. Right. And so we've seen the rise of term premium. And I'll, I'll bring up this, this actually here I'm going to share this one from again from Michael Howell. You know I love him. He, he's got some, so many good takes on these things. So. But here's term premium, right? And this is, this is on the 10 year, which is, which is the benchmark bonds for everywhere. But you can see the US 10 year treasury, you know it, it's, it's in, it only has it. It's not, it's not giving you the term premium you should have right now in the market is what his, what he's saying is that we should have about 5, 50 basis points more of term cream. We should be at 5% on the 10 year because of, you know the, the issues with, that people are seeing with, with the US debt going forward and just the sheer amount that they expect with the deficit we're still running and, and with the tax package and all that they, they ex. You would expect the tenure to be more like 5%. But the reason it's not, Scott, is that we're still leaning on the short end of the curve for issuance of new Treasuries. We're still leaning on T bills and it's a form of soft QE basically because it's kind of like yield curve control. By not issuing bonds and longer dated at the 10 year, 20 or 30 year, you're, you're artificially holding those rates down. That's the whole point.
- [11:10]
Dave
So.
- [11:10]
James
But I would be interested in what Mike has to say about that because of course Mike's been a bond investor for decades.
- [11:17]
Mike
So definitely we're in this one lately. Two years, definitely wrong. But what struck me, James, is really what you said last week showing that the credit default swaps in the US running higher than most other anything in the planet that's even comparable double what you get in Canada. That, that's striking. It's a question of how much worse it gets. And then all the latest debate about what's happen. We all excited about Doge cutting back on potential deficit spending. And you nailed that and Dave nailed that. It's not really happening now. We're negotiating this big great bill in Congress. The key thing that strikes me about everything there is I see those pretty severe deflationary forces globally, particularly if you look at like a gold silver ratio. It's never closed a year above 100. You can compare it to crude oil, but we all know that's going the way whale oil and the thing is, and I compared to the rest of the world, like people you pointed out, the bonds are in full force compared to like you said, CDS prices, you point out the term premium is not that high yet. But compared to the rest of the world we're very high yields our long end and you know, we're rest of the world selling. But also I think that shows up in what you see, okay, the stock market, US stock market's unchanged on the year. MSCI ex U S index is up like 15. That's all that money leaving and the dollar is still down what, 7% in the Bloomberg dollar index. That's not a good sign for risk assets. So overall we all point out everything is fine, rosy backward looking except a few annual things are fine. But to me that's where everything is tilted on. There's complete inord burden. We've had this nice sharp drop in the US stock markets bounce back up. So who cares about bonds now? It's got to stay up now. And that to me is what kicked in last week. If it's all about equity staying higher and just, I don't want, I know we tilt it until later or not but what's the best leading indicator for all this? Cryptos and bitcoin.
- [13:03]
Scott
So on schedule, Bitcoin's pretty high.
- [13:07]
Dave
Yeah.
- [13:11]
James
Are you loading a stapler? Dave, what are you doing?
- [13:13]
Dave
No, I was trying to fix this stupid boom arm because, because one of the, one of the listeners complained that I needed a microphone. It's like, yeah, I have a brand.
- [13:22]
Scott
New ignore top end. So ignore, ignore sound criticism from the monkey, monkey pit over on the side because there's always someone who doesn't like your sound.
- [13:34]
James
Does mine sound better?
- [13:35]
Scott
Now get in there.
- [13:39]
Dave
The most important leading indicator is, you know, for crypto assets is bitcoin because that's where things are going. I think this week's going to be interesting for a couple of reasons. I mean the first one is I actually wonder and every previous year when the bitcoin conference happened and you know, effectively bitcoin was soft. Why? Because all the people who buy it were in one place, whether it be Nashville or Miami or wherever. I mean, you know, it was, it was a big draw of all the whales and so there was less people buying. I mean in markets, markets fell. Well this year crypto native folks have been selling and so I'm really, it's going to be interesting. I mean and the people we're buying are just like in the title are, you know, company X, company Y, company Z Asset Manager Y. What? It's all people who look like us more than look like the typical bitcoiner. I think it'll be really interesting what happens this week.
- [14:37]
Scott
Totally.
- [14:38]
Dave
I mean, seriously. I mean, I, I, I, you know, when the sellers are all, all in Las Vegas and all of a sudden it's like, why? So I think it could be, it could be interesting. I mean, I know that sounds like a little bit of a crazy thought, but I actually think it's possible. I mean, what's going on here with, with crypto is very clear. Every time bitcoin stalls, there's this kind of, you know, false start, you know, alt season, and every time. And then, you know, even like this rally this weekend, I mean, altcoins have done, like, nothing. I mean, they're not bad. The charts are just kind of hanging out, but not good. And the thing is, is every time Mike talks about crypto as a leading indicator, my brain hurts. Now, why does my brain hurt? Because I think that he's right when it comes to ethereum and alts, and certainly right when it comes to animal spirits and things like memes. And I'm closer to his point of view on the meme coins than I am to the crypto community. You know, look, people will buy or sell whatever the hell they're going to buy or sell, but the fact is, I don't get the value proposition. I never will until they're allowed to monetize it. The only one, weirdly, that I think actually does have a chance to escape that is Doge. But that's really dependent on whether Musk does something with Doge inside of X. And we don't know that. And that's always the persistent rumor, but, you know, the rest. I mean, I don't get how you monetize a community, you know, frankly. So I guess we'll see. My prediction is, as meme coins start to try to monetize their communities, the prices will collapse, just like Internet stocks did when they first showed revenue. And they. And the ones that couldn't actually show a lot. But we'll see if that's true. But my guess is that's going to be the case because to quote the great Mike McGlone, hopium is extremely powerful, but it's probably not the best, probably not the best investment strategy. But the reason that I'm on this rant is because bitcoin, I think, is different than that. I still think bitcoin is reaching escape velocity towards gold. And Mike asked a question on x well, why? Or was it you or was it Peter Schiff or one of the other bitcoin skeptics that said, well if bitcoin is digital gold, why are central banks not buying it? And the answer is obvious there. You know, ask Caitlin Long to describe how the Federal Reserve officials think of bitcoin. And you know, Scott, I think you did that in your interview there, right? Yeah. And the answer is because they just don't want to care. I mean, you know, they think that if it's virtual, it can't be, it can't have value.
- [17:14]
James
Pretend it doesn't exist. Just pretend it doesn't exist.
- [17:17]
Scott
Easy.
- [17:17]
Dave
Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. I mean it feels, it feels like bitcoin is still in this basing period. It won't. In a period of time where funding rates are really low. All the things that generally you would see at within a couple of percent of an all time high. All the indicators that would indicate melt up top or froth, or that none of them exist. And, and that is, is a cognitive dissonance that I think resolves. And, and to me that's why I am more short term bullish than I usually am. Because usually I don't. You know, I'm kind of looking at the squiggles and saying okay, I know.
- [17:54]
Scott
The obviously perpetual swap rates for funding rates which you've mentioned indicates that this has been extremely spot driven, which is true. Just curious how this plays into it. Bitcoin options show bulls on boat with open interest at record. So we do have at least on cme, which obviously is not where we're seeing the bulk of options trading crypto that's on deribit, but that it is at record high territory with people extremely long.
- [18:21]
Dave
Could someone explain this to me because I traded options for a couple decades. Why the hell is options open interest indication of bullishness? I mean the headline writer there is ignorant and it's just that simple. I mean you don't know what the strategies are. My best guess exactly is that covered calls are being hedged. Thank you. Actual it is bullish. Bullish. It's not because people are bullish. It's because people think that bitcoin is selling. The call is, is good because you're picking up yield. Except for if it rallies those same people are self fulfilling. Use my language. I need to buy back the gamma.
- [19:03]
James
That's why.
- [19:04]
Dave
So you end up with a rally.
- [19:05]
James
That's why you have the, you know, the, the pain points and the. Where.
- [19:09]
Scott
Where Max pain.
- [19:11]
James
Yeah, the Max pain point of any option. Exactly. And it typically gravitates right to that pain point. You know, it's just self fulfilling.
- [19:21]
Scott
The most people who can lose in one spot for sure. Interestingly, the Marcus Thielen who's been on the show from 10X Research points out that bearish bets on strategy look alluring but that's what they bull put spread, I think bear put spread, excuse me with a bear put spread. A microstrategy here because it's diverged with bitcoin effectively making you know, coming to new all time highs. But microstrategy is still pretty far down. But to your point, I don't think we need to discuss that particular strategy. But there are a lot of ways that this open interest could be affected that are not necessarily everybody like bold heartedly long on $400,000, $500,000 option expertise.
- [19:59]
Dave
Yeah. Look, if you leverage in the system, so what are the pieces of leverage? So look, there are four pieces that we all look at, right. We all look at the perpetual swaps we got are way cheap relatively from an interest rate perspective. It's below prime rate to fund, to buy, to go long. Okay, so that's nothing there. There's options, but what is options doing? Well options at this scale is likely to be a dampener on volatility in the short term but with potential gamma squeezes in either direction on the other term. But it's kind of neutral. There's the futures premium I'm looking May to June is what are we at? 700 and you know, 750. So it's at about a 6%, you know, 6.5%, whatever. That's nothing, that's around, that's less than. That's like the funding rate of most people. So that's neutral. And the fourth is strategy and all the other companies that are quote buying on their balance sheet. And when you're at max leverage and max leverage driving prices, strategy trades at a much higher end nav than it is now and it's going up as opposed to going down. People are betting on deleveraging system.
- [21:12]
James
Right. Let me.
- [21:13]
Dave
So when you have more people betting on deleveraging in the system, I like being contrarian to the leverage. That's all I'll say.
- [21:19]
James
Yeah. For some context here, this is what people are talking about is that you know, well first of all this is one year of MicroStrategy versus IBIT, which is a good, you know, proxy for, for bitcoin against something that trades during market hours only because otherwise you, you have down periods for the, for the stock. But you can see like this, this right here is what people's talking about is, is this rollover and you know, reversion to something a little bit maybe more reasonable versus versus Bitcoin itself. But you know, this is really what people are talking about right here. So you've got I bet, or bitcoin going up while right here. And this is what MicroStrategy has done, right?
- [22:07]
Dave
And go back to the bigger chart for a second because I want to point something out because this is really important. I'm not saying where it's going to go, but if you look at where MicroStrategy peaked, it's all about, and it's hard to see this in a chart, but you're talking about the difference between velocity and acceleration.
- [22:23]
James
Are you talking about the peak here which was over exuberance or right here which is just kind of like all.
- [22:29]
Dave
Of them, all the above. What you see and what you're looking at. It's hard to train your eyes this way. Look at it from the perspective of not the absolute price level, but how it got there. So you get to 110 the first time via a steep curve up that acceleration, that acceleration. People are buying MicroStrategy because they're buying it in order to get leverage. Bitcoin stalls at a price. It's like, oh, why the fuck do I need leverage anymore? And so the premium evaporates. Bitcoin goes up. Remember you know the, from the 78 where you know, Scott and I both basically called the bottom, that triple bottom here, right? Which you see we called that triple bottom. And bitcoin starts going up and MicroStrategy starts outperforming. Bitcoin stalls at around the all time high. And once again it starts rolling over. It's a fairly pr. That actually makes sense because people are buying it for leverage. But it looks, I mean this chart looks ugly, right? You know, the way you're looking at it. So if you believe bitcoin is going to stall and stay at these levels for a while or go down and test lows, MicroStrategy is going to roll over and it's going to drop 50 bucks from here. There's no, no two ways about it. On the other hand, if bitcoin takes off, then it's gonna, but that's really the issue for a trader. You know, it's like if you follow Josh man, you know, and others, you know, there's, there's this constant X wars on microstrategy and what's it worth that happening right here?
- [23:48]
James
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:50]
Dave
I just find it interesting. People are, are making bets. I mean if you're a short term trader, make bets all day long if you're good at it. But if you're long term and you're just buying and holding stuff, do you really want to bet that the guy who owns 10 of the stock is going to do things that are going to hurt the stock price? Right. You're smiling because you always make the point about don't bet against the person who has the ammo. Right. I mean, you know, and, and to me that, that's an interesting question and I like, you know, sorry.
- [24:25]
Scott
Mike.
- [24:26]
Mike
So there's, there's things to buy in, in bull markets and things to buy in bear markets. So microstrategy at a severe premium in a bull market is a horrible risk reward. Trade is the way I look at right now. Good luck. We trade it, sure. But that's why I think we got to talk options here because we all have an options background. That's I started in the business three decades ago was options. And that's to me the key thing is what I look at. Like we saw, we noticed in GBTC when it was so cheap at a discount. That's what you buy when everything hates it. Now that's why I look at this is the opposite. So that's the big difference for me and Peter Ship. I've always been very bullish Bitcoin until just the last year. Like it's just too speculative, excessive and I tilt over to favoring gold. So far that's basically working certainly this year. But the key thing is that's what I want to dig in the optionality of this year. So we've had a one little shot across the bow early in the year. Bitcoin drops a third. S P500 drops maybe 15. Bond yields all drop 50 basis points. And now everything's going back up, everything's fine. I look at the optionality of this year now that it's yes, you're not seeing the backward lessons of, of recession but when you're not a commodity guy global I see nothing but severe deflationary forces. And that's my point is by the end of this year if we're just say the S P 500 is up 10, it's man nothing as big advances 20 to 30 makes sense. Bond yields go up. It's nothing. It's the optionality where I see the next big trade is say s P500 just gives back 1020 of that 100 sent rally since 2019 which is historically an aberration in all world as I think sensing weight US assets I'm selling that's the big trade. That optionality is where I think hedge funds and things have been a little bit early but a little bit wrong. That's where you make a good big on your position potentially because it's already priced in all this bullish, bullishness. Look at the microstra strategy premium. That's why I back off and say thank you, let the traders have it. And to me that's why I'm looking the big picture. So now this weekend we've had that little tilt over last year. Stock market bounced and went up. But the key thing, what's different the last time the stock market has had a correction like we did last time we had the most significant. This is Q1 2020 significant fiscal monetary stimulus ever. Now we get, we're not getting any of that. And to me it's bounced and everybody's enthusiastic. I still think that's the big trade is you drop this year equities, everything follows yields foul. But like to my point is right now everything's fine. That means there's like yeah, it's not that exciting.
- [26:48]
James
You know, it's interesting you're saying that just trying to think through just the sheer amount of debt that we expect to come from the United States because we are continuing to run these deficits. We're looking at this tax package and I mean this is not. But we, we're, we're not getting to a balanced budget anytime soon. So we're going to continue to have all this debt piled onto the market. It was interesting last week you heard Jamie Dimon in an interview and he was talking about, he really expects the, the Fed to revisit the SLR requirements. And why that matters is the supplementary leverage ratio requires the banks to hold the Treasuries as risk assets in their calculations, which means that they're not risk free, which means that there's a limit to what they can own in their balance sheet because it's negatively affecting them on their risk ratios. And here's what's funny about that is that they removed that completely during COVID Right. And then they put it back on. So the isda, the ISDA and I wrote about this a long time ago, like last year that they, they issued a white paper saying that they think that the, the Fed should just remove that requirement for banks completely. And Jamie Dimon yesterday Or last week echoed that and said I expect there to be some sort of change there to allow banks to, to own more. And what, why this matters is because it just allows the banks to continue to pile on leverage which is expansionary of the monetary, the money supply. I mean it's literally just continued, you know, pylon on current collateral. Right. So it's just an expansion of liquidity and that means that you're going to continue to see the expansion of price in things like gold and bitcoin in my opinion. Espec if that, if and when that happens, that's going to be like QE on steroids in my opinion.
- [28:53]
Scott
I mean Dave, we lost your mic completely now.
- [28:59]
James
There you go.
- [29:00]
Scott
Yeah, we did hear a boom which.
- [29:02]
James
Was pretty interesting there.
- [29:04]
Dave
You're back, you're back. Think of what is Goldilocks. Goldilocks Owl is Mike and, and James are both right. That impotent impossible scenario. No, if you end up with commodity deflation because of economic forces at the same time as budget deficits need to be financed and putting in liquidity to create financial asset inflation, that's nirvana for the administration. That's what they want. And I'm not saying it's going to happen, but effectively if you end up with deflationary forces, particularly out of China, particularly around the world, even here, from a commodity point of view, at the same time as financial assets boom so as to make treasury yields drop, that is literally the perfect scenario. And ask yourself the question in that perfect scenario, what will do best? Well, what we'll do best is, I hate to say it and going to the conference, I'm not wearing orange right now. What we'll do best is bitcoin because bitcoin will be unconstrained in that scenario where financial assets people will view gold as less safe haven. Y that's why when the tariff announcement came out this weekend, what happened? Well, Bitcoin was at 107. It's now close to 110. Gold is down a few dollars, not a lot. And the S and P, the stock futures are up about a percent. So bitcoin reacted the most, stock futures reacted the second most and gold reacted slightly, slightly down.
- [30:34]
Scott
But Dave, couldn't you say bitcoin reacted the most? Because it was the most tradable at that moment.
- [30:39]
Dave
Of course it's true. Of course it's true. There's no question about that. But the point is, look it, look the, the, the, the notion that Doge was going to cut the deficit was always Problematic. You know, when you look at Dave.
- [30:54]
James
I fought on stage and with Pomp on this and at his event, literally he was saying, we're gonna get to. We're gonna get to surplus.
- [31:02]
Dave
And maybe the only way. The only way it could happen. And it could happen, I suppose, but the way. Only way it could happen is if Congress authorizes and, and actually starts authorizing, you know, cuts. Like actual cuts. You know, the, the big beautiful bill stuff. I mean, kind of.
- [31:18]
James
No, Dave, Dave, I. Okay, I'm going to respectfully disagree that the only way it happens is that I don't think that they can even do that. I think the only way it happens is if we get such nominal inflation that GDP rises to the point where we actually balance the budget through massive taxes on fake dollars. Literally, that's the only way we can get there. And it may take 5, 7 years to do that. I don't think it happens in this.
- [31:42]
Dave
I'm not taking the other side of that bet, James. I'm not. What I'm saying is the only way Doge could actually do any cutting. Okay. If they, if they cut 25. Let's say they cut back to. If all discretionary budget was cut back to 2015 levels. That sounds like a great win because we look at where it was. But the problem is, is most of the budget discretionary.
- [32:03]
Mike
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:04]
Dave
You're still in deficit because of what you're paying in interest or what you're doing on defense, because defense is the sacred cow. Unless Doge is able to.
- [32:11]
James
$2 trillion right there.
- [32:12]
Dave
I just, I, I'm aware.
- [32:13]
James
That's my point exactly. For, for context for the listeners. That's $2 trillion between 800 to $900 billion for defense and $1.1 trillion for, for interest on debt, that's 2 trillion.
- [32:26]
Dave
Right. And what's our tax receipts right now?
- [32:28]
James
Five point. Let's see.
- [32:31]
Dave
Right. So you're basically saying you'd have to cut the rest of the budget almost in half. The balance. Pretty close, right? Maybe 40%. I mean, really deep.
- [32:44]
Scott
But that goes up like that. You know that those debt payments right.
- [32:48]
Dave
Now, there are many, many things that Doge found and processes and things that should be implemented and done. But that's going to require Congress to do it. And we're not going to hear boo about that until after the, the budget, whatever the, the BBB is, is passed one way or another. And I'm. We'll see whether they have any stomach for it. I mean, you know, it's, it's it's, it is what it is. So the notion that that would happen, that was the only really bear case for bitcoin and gold. And I think that's gone. Right. You know, so if, if you think that you're going to have liquidity, you're going to have liquidity. Now the question is.
- [33:25]
James
Yeah.
- [33:25]
Dave
What will happen.
- [33:26]
Scott
What the only disagreement here is not whether it's good for gold, it's whether it's good for gold. And bitcoin. Mike just doesn't like. I think we have three of us who kind of think bitcoin will do what gold does and we have Mike who thinks it'll go the opposite way. That's really the fundamental disagreement here in, in all of this. Everybody believes seemingly that we have the same problem. We believe gold will go up. We all believe gold will go up.
- [33:50]
Dave
Yeah.
- [33:50]
Scott
Correct.
- [33:52]
Dave
Yeah.
- [33:52]
Scott
Kind of an interesting nuance.
- [33:54]
Mike
So that's, that's my main, my base. Well, my base. So what did we do last week? We got the high in the 30 year at 515 and the same day the bitcoin made an all time new high. That's a great statement for bitcoin. This. The thing I think we're kicking on now is the end game of the wealth creation in the U. S Stock market. We had massive fiscal monetary stimulus since this. Well overall for decades. And we're seeing the limits of that. And Dave points, James points of that with cds our debt's just too expensive. And to me that's the, you know, there's only two examples in history we get this expensive in the stock market. Japan in 89, the US in 1929. And to me that's why I'm still favorable to gold because I look at that bitcoin gold ratio and I don't want to fire Dave up too much. I just point out it's been the same for, since 2021. And I just look at this year. This year's a down year for the stock market, which I still think it's going to be. It's going to be much better for gold than bitcoin.
- [34:52]
James
While you're talking in that context.
- [34:56]
Scott
Okay, yeah, sorry.
- [34:57]
James
So all I see on this chart though Mike, from what you're saying is that you're saying it'll mean revert but they're still, they, they move in tandem and this is again against ibit so we don't have this strange non market move moves. But this is one year back and you can just see how bitcoin's more Volatile. But it's same. It's. It's following the same trajectory. That's. That's the point that we. That we keep making.
- [35:19]
Dave
I think that you make that chart. Oh, I. But doesn't go back that far. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:23]
James
I'll make a new one.
- [35:26]
Mike
It's. It's 2020 for Bitcoin Gold. And again, I. I don't think I should need to apologize that I'm still. Well, there's gold and it's outperforming bitcoin this year. Now by the end of the year, it'll be a wonderful thing if bitcoin can catch up. But I think the big theme is, let's put it this way, if we end this year and we're down 10% in the equity market, that's the beginning of a massive bear market that we're way overdue for, that some of us have seen in history. And that starts the deflationary forces that are just kicking into most of the rest of the world, particularly China.
- [35:57]
Dave
So there's a couple things. Look, there's bitcoin moves based on two things and based on the adopt which I just wanted to go back to 20, you know, if you could. But that it's. Bitcoin got way ahead of itself in 21 relative to its adoption metrics. You know that. What's that?
- [36:16]
Scott
It's just hilarious when you. And that depending on how you index it.
- [36:19]
James
Let me not know.
- [36:21]
Scott
Versus bitcoin over a long time. That's why I was giggling as well.
- [36:24]
Dave
There you go. Yeah.
- [36:25]
James
This is.
- [36:25]
Dave
You can't do anything about it.
- [36:27]
Mike
But the good. Remember, remember I'm. I'm just talking about bitcoin gold ratio.
- [36:34]
Dave
Right.
- [36:35]
James
Bitcoin is white here. Gold is blue.
- [36:37]
Dave
Right. So Bitcoin in 21 went in sync. Right. You know, it was what you were talking about.
- [36:44]
James
Right?
- [36:44]
Dave
Right. It's at least by every adoption metric that I know was. Was, you know, it was up by a huge amount. My problem. Right. So, you know, in 21 it got way ahead of itself in terms of adoption. So bitcoin we're basically. Mike is pointing out a fact and I think it's a true fact, which is we are right now where we. Where bitcoin gold got to in 21. But at the time, in 21, Bitcoin's price relative to its network hash rate relative to the dispersion of wallets, relative to the fact that there were no sovereigns, there were no corporates, there was no way to invest in it from a public point of view was, was there. And so looking at that, one can come rationally to the conclusion that 21 was insane. It was a blow off top. It was however you want to call it, you know, it's a bubble or whatever. So that corrected and now we've been on a much more sustainable step path since then. So to think if you. So if you looked at the chart with that 21 taken out, it's an up into the right chart that looks just like the bitcoin hash rate. And I expect that to continue. And the thing that's interesting and most interesting to me will be does it reach critical mass? We in the bitcoin world think bitcoin will reach gold. And people say, well, what does that mean? I think gold continues to go higher. Right. Because I think that the denominator, which is fiat, is being printed out of control. And so the question of when does bitcoin get toward gold? It might be a decade, but why? It might be two decades, but. But it might be at a gold price that's dramatically higher than we are today.
- [38:21]
James
That's right.
- [38:21]
Dave
And so let's put the ratio of bitcoin to gold is a question of are we at fair value? Mike is kind of your thesis is we're at fair value. That, that where we are now in this range is sort of at a fair value. And you're saying, well we can go down from there, we can go up from there, whatever. And my thesis is we were a fraction of fair value, in which case it's, it's. They're totally different theses and that's totally reasonable. Right. But you, you correct, Mike?
- [38:50]
Mike
No. Well, my main thesis is, I'm seeing, my main thesis is I'm seeing very un disconcerting performance in this asset that everybody I sense is the most pile on bullish trade I've ever seen. That's just not when I don't join things. I'm sorry. And it's for the last few years and I just want to point out there's only been two down years in beta the stock market, since bitcoin's been launched and it went down a lot. That's my point is we need to see us get through that. I think all these entities are putting bitcoin on their treasuries now are just adding the systematic risk and they're not realizing they're just doubling down in an asset that everybody is bullish at the wrong time. History doesn't really judge these things. Well, and I'm just pointing out these facts of these performance I see in the old guard gold that you know some central banks are buying, a lot of them are buying. I and I'm still very concerned that this is going to be the beginning of the, the unwind of that great work American wealth creation machine which I point out is going to pressure all cryptos and bitcoin is a high correlation there. So so far it's been great this year and let's just point out it's an unchanged stock market and gold's off the charts. So by the end of the year if the stock market's up 10, that's a bad problem for gold. It's probably going to pressure gold. That's my bias. It's okay. No, we're great for this weekend. It's more by day weekend. What are we going to be saying by Christmas? And if this is the way we're going that's great. But that's what's happening. The bond market's telling you the trade's over. It can't handle these higher risk assets creating inflation the Fed can't ease. And it's just at that end game that I'm worried about. That's what bitcoin gold tell me. That's why I'm still just biased towards gold this year. At some point I might get back towards bitcoin but again that's the key thing is you want the lower volatility store value versus the highest volatility speculative digital assets asset in an environment's going to go down and I still think that's the base case this year.
- [40:35]
James
All right, I got guys I gotta drop for a meeting but Dave, you can take this one.
- [40:39]
Scott
But what? Yeah, enjoy. See in Vegas and one of you guys, one of you guys talked about Josh Mandel and he, he's appeared so he says McGlone's onto something. You got to pay attention to price action. I don't know if that was Dave or James, but no, Josh actually emailed.
- [40:53]
Dave
Me that he thinks his call and Josh, please, please, you know if you're around you can feel free to comment back either to Scott or to me. His call is not that bitcoin is going to drop, but that gold is going to absolutely go parabolic. And that Mike may very, Mike may be right and I may be right meaning that we make gold and bitcoin lags it but still outperforms stocks because stocks are tethered to earnings and that that's certainly possible. I mean look, there's geopolitical reasons to think that a parabolic gold bull run is something that China wants to see happen and Russia wants to see happen. There, there are. So who knows what will happen there. The real question is, is the dollar being depreciated against hard assets? And if the answer is yes, then the question then becomes is bitcoin a hard asset or is Bitcoin Bitcoin a speculative beta? And that's where Mike and I tend to disagree on that one. I could easily see gold continuing to rally. I could easily see that as long as the Federal Reserve and the other central banks of the world are if anything, positive toward gold or don't want to try to paper trade it to oblivion like they did. And there have been multiple billions of dollars of fines of money meant central banks doing so. Gold could continue to do well in this environment where we have to put a fire hose of liquidity in to keep the masses happy. And you're seeing that. And I'm saying that in a way, not just the U.S. i mean, whether it's China, whether it's Europe, whether it's Japan, whether it's the United States, the fact is politicians don't get reelected when people are in pain. And so it feels like the easiest thing to do is spend other people's money and print more of it. And if you can do so in a way that doesn't cause consumer inflation but goes to assets, so be it. Then your buddies will give you, donate more money to you. And so I look at it in that kind of philosophical way. I don't know what will happen. The reason I was pointing out the coincident indicators in the economy are people aren't really in pain per se. You know, they're just talking about it. And we have this crazy rhetorical divide in this country. You know, that's just kind of insane. And so, you know, that's what we're looking at. That's, that's sort of my, my base case.
- [43:12]
Scott
I want to ask a pivot question and we have this title, the Bitcoin Rush Starts. Now, the idea here that when we were looking at this and Mike, I want your opinion because you just said you don't like a trade where everybody's rushing in. Obviously you like to be the counter indicator. Right now we have this. Businesses are the largest net buyer of bitcoin so far this year, led by strategy, which makes up 77% of the growth. You can look that on this river, which is a platform of 2,000 plus big companies using bitcoin with river. We had this one yesterday, a small food firm buys 21 bitcoin. Yeah, it's kind of a nothing burger, but it's a food firm. Right. And these are the kind of trends that we're seeing now. And it seems to be a massive uptick. Every day I see three or four of these stories. Some company I've never heard that's buying bitcoin and adding it to their treasury, hopefully not taking on debt to do it. But, you know, Mike, is this one of those things that gives you your. Makes your spidey senses tingle that it's a top signal?
- [44:07]
Mike
Exactly.
- [44:07]
Scott
That's kind of what you're saying. Or is it like, what if 10,000 more of these come in? You know, like, what if every.
- [44:14]
Mike
Exactly. So why aren't they adding gold?
- [44:16]
Scott
You'd think some of these would be adding gold, actually.
- [44:20]
Mike
It's that simple. Gold is expensive, too. It's a bull market. I don't deny it. The difference is one has a history of 80, 70, 80, 90 corrections. And everybody, every time it makes a new high, people saying it's different, different. And we know which one that is. The key thing I'm really worried about is the systematic risk of a business adding this highly volatile, highly correlated asset to the stock market, to its treasury is unheard of. The history is not going to judge as well. Now let's remember exactly what Michael Saylor said. Why, when it was microstrategy, why he paid all the bitcoin because he did not see great business opportunities anymore in his business. Now, businesses should be running their businesses, making money, and if they're not seeing good business opportunities or tilting shifting over to bitcoin as an upside, that's not going to end well. I just. That's when I look at the optional melody, this train is like, no way, I'll find something else. And that's why I think we're getting to the point that we have to be very careful of rational investors. Is the time that we all knew when time to buy bitcoin, as Michael sayo started in, in 20, 20 was around 10 grand. And a lot of people admitting that certainly the current government hated it. Now that everybody loves it and it's taken off. We all know we got to be very careful here. That's why look at. Okay, what are the signals that. And so I look at what you pointed out is this is to me just saying, stay away. We've seen this before. And I have to admit that when you see this kind of rash, irrational enthusiasm, you've seen the pain in the past from this kind of rationalism. I just say I can't be. I'd rather be the guilty one. To look back at from 10 years and yeah, I got it wrong versus the one who's. Who kind of warned.
- [45:53]
Scott
I just wanted to say, Dave, Dave, as you jump in, I'm just trying to parse legitimately Bitcoin or aside how professionally you look at whether it's a catalyst in the beginning of something or some massive top signal, that was exactly.
- [46:09]
Dave
Where I was going to go. So first thing, I'm going to make two points. Point number one before I answer what you just said, Scott, because I think you're onto something, is that corporations with positive cash flows in have historically used that cash flow to buy back their own stock. Right. So not an economic thing whatsoever for the business. Zero. So the question, if you're a corporate, if you're a CFO and you have a choice of your positive cash flow, you don't need the money. This is money that's retained earnings for shareholders. What do you do? If you're, if you want to help your shareholders, what do you want to do? Money for spending on businesses, money for investing in the business. That's secondary. You're not going to put that in bitcoin. You're not going to put that in gold. You're not going to buy back your own stock. You're going to spend it for that. So if you're now in the situation where the only question is you put it in Treasuries or you put it buy back your own stock or you buy Bitcoin, well, what they're looking at is they're saying, okay, I think Bitcoin is 90% cheap. I'm going to do this for the long haul and my investors are going to reward me for it. That's. That's a decision. That's not a leverage decision. That's a rational decision. It's a completely rational decision. It's the one that I would make if I were running a corporate treasury where I didn't have. Where it was either buy back my own stock, which by the way, has all sorts of connotations to it, you know. Yes, you buy back your. So. So it's not. No, you know, I'm not selling. Selling stock to buy Bitcoin. About the corporate treasurer that company was.
- [47:43]
Scott
Sorry, the food company I was talking about, they sold some stock to buy Bitcoin.
- [47:48]
Dave
Right. So that is an issue. So now that's thing number one. Thing number two is in 1997, I heard exactly the same stuff that Mike was saying from people who were shorting all these companies into what became the biggest Internet bubble. They weren't short. This isn't what you were hearing in 2000. That's what we're hearing in 1997. I think that, yes, you're right. You know, if there was a lot of leverage in the system, if individuals and people who are invested. By the way, that chart is a little bit misleading because there's a lot of individuals, I know people who sold bitcoin in order to have the ETFs, because that way it was easier for them to hold on to it. So there's some of that going on. Yeah. So it's a little. It's a little misleading. But the truth is, is there's not a lot of retail enthusiasm. There's not a lot of hype. None of the hype signals that this price is there. So I agree with you. If you get to 60% of the companies with high cash flows that are. That are buying bitcoin for their balance sheet, then you're right, Mike. 100. Then at that point, it's sort of the end. I just don't think we're at the end now. And I think that's kind of the point from Scott. It's like we look at this, it's just not there. There's no there there. These are not.
- [49:06]
Scott
Yeah, it's kind of like if your cab driver tells you about bitcoin, maybe you're starting to see a bubble. But if you're a barber, cab driver and kids nanny, I'll tell you about bitcoin. You know, you're there. So is it one or all three?
- [49:18]
Mike
But let me just piggyback on what you said, Dave, to me, that's the biggest problem I've seen since 1999 and 2020 2007, because I see it now. I've been. My wife and I've been looking for real estate. Our broker is great, but he's never seen a real recession. What you're talking about, if you don't need the cash now, then you're not doing the iterations of the past where the Fed just did not ease every time the stock market went down through massive fiscal stimulus. That's the point. The whole human nature of this is the only way this ends ever, when you get this expensive versus the rest of the world equities, is it has to go down. It just. The bubble ends. That's my point, is these people who are making decisions are not perceiving of a world where you have a normal recession where your average unemployment goes to 6% which it only had always has. People cannot contribute to the 401ks because they're not working. It's what's. We're the most overdue for this in my lifetime. That's my point. Yes, I've been early but I've seen those indications in things like gold and treasury spike and that's my point is when people say they don't need money because they don't realize what money they're going to need when we have the normal recession and maybe on a point that's 6%, it goes to 10%. But that's. That's my point is why double down in this risk asset at a time when you can get treasuries at 5%. I just think, well thank you. If I'm running a corporation, I say sure, you put a little bit in bitcoin. Yeah. This is the human nature here. The human. This like this is not going to end until it goes down.
- [50:39]
Dave
You're right. Well, two, two points. First, the unemployment rate.
- [50:41]
Mike
That's like your stock buying back your stock. Because we've had the biggest bull market. Well this. Let's just think of the bull market. We've had the biggest market since 2009. Most people's history 2009 versus the rest world the the S P 500 versus the MSCI from 1969 to 2013 was 1 to 1. Now it pumped up to 2.2 to 1 and it's just starting to revert down and everybody in the planet gets it. I'm overweight. US stock market. Good luck. I just think this is, this is where I stick over to gold. And bitcoin's been great, but at some point treasuries. But that hasn't happened yet.
- [51:11]
Dave
Okay, so the two key points here where we disagree. First one is kind of minimal. But we can't look at 4.1% or whatever unemployment rate we're at at this point as dispositive when the labor force participation rate is so freaking low. Right. You know, so it's the unemployment rate if you, if people hadn't given up out of the workforce is nowhere near as low as it looks. And that is an issue. So there is some of that going on. There's no doubt. But, but let's talk about what you just said. I 100% agree that companies will pile in and overspend cash and be in a cash crunch. Because they do not anticipate a recession. They don't know what that's like. You're absolutely right. There's no question about that. I just don't think we're there yet. But yes, there's 100%. I agree with that. In terms of equity valuations, that's kind of my point. My point is you're looking at your stock's valuation. You're looking at what's going on. You're saying, man, we're expensive. Do I really want to buy more? The only reason that companies should be buying back stock now, there's only one, and that's to sterilize options they're giving to their employees. That's it. Anything else other than that? If you're buying back stocks, unless you are in a crazy situation where you believe you have huge growth potential and you're idiosyncratic, but the majority, as you put it, are overvalued and you'd be nuts to do it. So now the next question is Treasuries are victories coin. And honestly, I go back to. I don't like his metaphysical stuff, but Michael Saylor's analogy of the melting ice cube. I think that we know that they're going to be printing dollars. We see the deficits, we see all of it. And that's really the question. And it doesn't take a lot of companies, just like it doesn't take a lot of asset managers. I mean, we haven't even seen the push. Just keep this in mind. Investment consultants, Mercers, et cetera, the ones who direct the largest pension plans in the world, have still not given bitcoin the all clear. So we haven't seen asset allocation at scale yet. This is the toe in the water because bitcoin size is so small. And every piece of analysis that you do ignores that bitcoin is so small relative to these asset flows. And it's a supply and demand economy. If you strip those two things out. Mike, I think we're probably similar saying similar things. I just think they're going to do everything they can to kick the can down the road. I've said before, when we're doing this show in August and September, I may very well be flashing red warning signs in my head because it's that time of year and things that can happen. I think that. I just think it's early to be saying that that's really it. But we don't disagree all that much on the warning signs of the economy and people. You're right. I. I Keep seeing people have no idea of what could happen. You're right. That's true. People don't.
- [54:02]
Mike
But that we, we need to disagree. That's what our audience wants. It's more fun, I think.
- [54:06]
Dave
No, no, I understand that. I, I get that part, but I, I always like trying to crystallize in a debate where the disagreement really is right. You know, I don't disagree that there's irrationality, but we have a financialized economy, and that's the main reason bitcoiners are bitcoin. That's why you're going to have a of people in Las Vegas saying, opt out of the fiat economy. Well, you know, they're crazy people there, and there are mainstream people there, and then there are people there saying, well, what's all this stuff about, you know, and the crazies are like, well, you know, we need to rip the whole system down and, you know, go through a fourth turning and have like a civil war and, you know, whatever. But my point of view is incremental change towards sounder money is what we need. And I see bitcoin as the hope for getting there. And from an investment point of view, I want to profit as we go, but that doesn't mean that I'm bearish on gold. I'm not. I own some. And it's basically very straightforward. I'm not as bullish on gold as I am on bitcoin, but that's a market. People are going to believe what people believe.
- [55:13]
Mike
Yeah, yeah. Well, here's my. I've said it before. The base case, I think, is I'm afraid we're going to do what history suggests we did in the 1930s. It only came after stock market went down. We went to Great Depression, the 1990s in Japan, it only came after stock market went down and real estate went down. That somewhat's happening in China right now. They've been shut off that. To me, the next recession is going to be in the back of one simple little thing. The u. S. Stock market just giving back of some of its extraordinary gains in the last decade, certainly since 2009, 100%. To me, that's the recession if you have to shut off the spending. And I think most big money managers know that's the key risk. If we can just stay here and stabilize, that's wonderful. Bitcoin's a great indication. It's wonderful. And then I just look at all these silly Millions of cryptocurrencies are just classic signs we saw with Internet stocks, Classic signs that we read about in 29 and 89 in Japan. I got to purge that stuff. Stuff then I think we have a great environment but that stuff's got to be purged. It's just silly. You got things like Dogecoin, the number eight cryptocurrency. I hate comparing it to bitcoin gold, but it's the same chart. It just is. And, and they bought them at 25. The bitcoin gold bottom 25 same times dogecoin bottom about 25 billion. Now it's up at 37 billion.
- [56:24]
Dave
Just.
- [56:24]
Mike
I hate to see it but it's just fact of what's happening in markets.
- [56:27]
Scott
Yeah, I mean we're going to go ahead and move to wrap because it's the holiday obviously. But my, my. I guess my final comment there goes to the same question I was asking before is does that bubble pop at $200,000 bitcoin or does it pop here at 100?
- [56:39]
Mike
There you go.
- [56:41]
Dave
Since Josh is. Since Josh is watching.
- [56:43]
Mike
Good question.
- [56:43]
Dave
444, baby. Although I'm not, I'm. I know I'm laughing. I mean it is in. It is farther from impossible than people think. But because markets are always more irrational when they do get frothy than people expect, the question is if it gets frothy. That's really the question. I personally hope a sustained grind higher climb a wall or worry market is what we have and there are some indications that could be. But hyperbolic stuff happens all the time.
- [57:16]
Scott
Josh responded fo, fo, fo. And so as we wrap it, what's funny is that Dave, we're going to see all of the excess this week. I think Mike, where Dave and I and James obviously lives in Vegas, we'll be able to report back and tell you if 50,000 people really show up to this thing and what the vibe is like, I think we'll have a much better gauge of sentiment because man, I've been at almost all the bitcoin conferences and I remember when things were bad and I remember when things were good and when they were somewhat at their peak even though price was dropping when it was being planned. The one in Miami at the convention center that had like 30,000 people and felt like Coachella and took you 30 minutes to walk from a. It's pretty good. Tops. It was a pretty good signal at that moment, you know. And so we'll see how this one is. I think it's going to be insane. It is Vegas after all, guys. That's all we got for you today. Dave, I'LL see you at dinner tomorrow night.
- [58:04]
Dave
Yes, sir. All right. Cool.
- [58:07]
Scott
Another great Mac Monday. Thanks, gentlemen. We will see you soon.
- [58:09]
Mike
Bye.
- [58:11]
Dave
That's dope.