← The Wolf Of All Streets
The Wolf Of All Streets
Why THIS Crypto Is About To Skyrocket With Dana White On Board l Sunny Lu, VeChain
01:10:01
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- [00:00]
A
A couple years ago when I go to your show. By the way, great show, guys. The best show.
- [00:06]
B
Unbelievable. Checks in the mail.
- [00:08]
A
Thank you. Where's the Money goes, Right? Where's the Money Goes?
- [00:13]
B
Featured Glasses coming soon. Why not do it?
- [00:19]
A
We're gonna fully love each other.
- [00:21]
B
Every crypto cycle, we talk about mainstream adoption and the path to a billion users. Many of us have been a bit disappointment at the lack of utility, or at least interest in the real utility of our industry. But every time I sit down with Sonny Liu from Vechain, he convinces me that he finally has the way to bring a billion people into crypto. We're going to talk about it now and also of course, talk about their amazing partnership with the ufc.
- [00:49]
A
That's dop. All right.
- [01:05]
B
So this is my first recording in front of a UFC background. UFC 314, the official press space. Your hand is rubbing where Dana White's.
- [01:15]
A
Oh yeah, that skis apart.
- [01:17]
B
Was just rubbing. We've got the T shirts, UFC V chain. Tell me about the partnership and what we're doing here.
- [01:24]
A
Well, I firstly, that's also my first time to do this kind of, you know, on this stage. Like you said, this is a Dana spot, right? Yeah, we started with a UFC partnership like three years ago since day one. Honestly, I was not so into UFC at the time. But I did my research, all of the statistics, you know, the followers, they have a really growing, super fast growing expansion globally and also pretty matching our strategy in terms of market expansion as well. Keep the US as a homeland territory and then starting to take over the European countries like Paris, different type of places. And then start to just right before starting expand to Asia as well. So I remember my first official UFC fight I've been going to is actually within Singapore. So it's getting better. Better after three years. I would say it's more than just like only for sponsorship or exposure. Those are grading part. That's really great. But also Dana getting know more and more about us. Basically he likes what we're doing. Even he doesn't know anything about crypto even still. A few weeks ago he. He told me like Sonny, I really don't know that shit, but I really like what you guys doing. He started to put himself really into our course and helping us for more collaboration. Like yesterday we did the full ocean. That's basically Dana's work. And also even try to expand our assets into more possible categories. PowerSlab, we just been title sponsorship and also we are looking at possibly expanded to even PBR, WWE, all of the stuff actually next week or in two weeks, April 24th, starts the Kansas City Takeover. Three fights, five days. VeChain going to be all over the place. I would say the communication assets, global fans, outreach until the business cases. We're also working on a very exciting project with Dana's help as well. It should be coming up in one month or two, maybe later on. So he's. We got the full support. Let's put this way. Or according to Dana's words, is brother, I'm going all in for you guys.
- [04:02]
B
But he's been all in for you guys for a while. But now it's official.
- [04:05]
A
Well, yeah.
- [04:06]
B
Well, we're announcing when this comes out that he's officially an advisor.
- [04:09]
A
Yes, yes.
- [04:10]
B
And that's not something that he would take lightly. And I met him yesterday and discussed this with him. Obviously, he gets a thousand of these things a day.
- [04:18]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure.
- [04:19]
B
He can literally work with anyone in the world. Any government, any person. He's one of the biggest names now, 100% in the planet. And he's chosen to be an advisor with you even without understanding the crypto side?
- [04:31]
A
No, I mean, he doesn't understand the crypto side, but he really likes what we're doing. I think that's a very important stuff. But you're right, actually, for sure. People like Dana y got that kind of inquiries or requests all the time. Right. And other than, I think a few months ago, he just announced like, he joined the board of Meta and we're just the next one.
- [04:55]
B
What I find interesting is that crypto companies are sponsoring everything now.
- [04:59]
A
Right?
- [04:59]
B
Right. But that means you could have put your money basically anywhere. Right. You could have gone to the formula one route like anyone else, or all these. But you chose ufc, which I would say is not necessarily a crypto native audience in any way, shape or form.
- [05:13]
A
No.
- [05:14]
B
So when you tell me Dana doesn't really understand crypto, but he understands what you're doing. I've always argued that mainstream adoption only comes when people don't know it's crypto. Yeah, well, that's using something that they want to use for the right reasons. And, you know, I don't know how my iPhone works, I don't know how email works, but I use them every single day. So was that part of the thinking is to go to that mainstream audience with something?
- [05:37]
A
Well, 100%. Well, we actually, I think we had that kind of similar conversation a couple years ago when I go to your show. By the way, great show, guys. The best show.
- [05:49]
B
Unbelievable checks in the mail.
- [05:51]
A
Thank you. But let's say most of the barrier we have been talking about is how to get people to use crypto to use blockchain technology or take the benefits out of any kind of blockchain applications in the real life utilities. That's a major challenge, I would say. And I think Dana and also the UFC represents a theme or proof record successfully. They are able to convert something like pretty niche but into the global phenomena. Right. UFC took 20 years, turned up to be from a $2 million, a small investment to be today's giant mega sports across the whole world. Actually right now, Dana even start to meet with those prime ministers, the presidents. It's using his own influential power to help not only America, actually to bring the world more peaceful environment that's showing the greatest influences. So for what we're trying to do, we always keep our main theme or our mission as a mass adoption. What does it mean for mass adoption? You don't have to be or you don't need to be a crypto user. Like we talk about all of the barriers like memorize the private keys and backup all of the stuff.
- [07:22]
B
My grandma's not getting a metamask.
- [07:24]
A
Exactly. Well, actually I told my product managers saying I need you to create a product. My mom, a 70 years old lady, only speak Chinese, not English even. And if she can start to use some of the application, that means your job is done. Right? So, so let's say UFC to us it represents 200 million followers across the whole world. One billion views, one billion impressions among all of the countries. It doesn't matter like the language difference or culture difference. I think the next UFC fight is going to be even Azerbaijan, like the place I only read in my textbook when I was a kid. So basically UFC is taking over everywhere, outreaching people around the whole world. And it's perfect for us because we wanted to drive our applications, our utilities to everyone in the world. And also Dana, when I discussed our mission with Dana, we talk about sustainability is our goal, right, Dana? Actually not really. As most of people are saying over the Internet, including Joe Rogan, including Elon Musk or even Trump. They're not really against sustainability per se. They actually know this is the right thing to do. But what they're really against is a way of doing sustainability. Right, like all of the corporate. Yeah, corporate, weaponized, greenwashed. Yeah, those are cases are really like, I would say it's dirty play, right? For own interest, for own profits. But eventually, if we think about sustainability, maintain the sustainable world and for sustainable development and using the recycled energies. Those are things that are real. We should take care of that. But just how to do that, that makes a lot of difference. So when I show the vbettita R ecosystem and some of the applications like Marksha or evn, they don't like that. Then I just feel like, okay. And he's a super smart guy and instantly he called out the key difference. He said, well, I like that. It's not any like previous ESG bullshit. It's a bottom up strategy other than the top down, top down strategy. Right. Basically involving the individuals doing the right actions, doing better on a daily basis and the platform will take over, let's say helping everyone monetize the value created. And it's very, I would say it's very web3 and also has a bright future. That's what Dana likes.
- [10:11]
B
When I was talking to him yesterday, I said, I don't think there's any person, Republican, Democrat, alien anywhere who wants to swim with plastic in the ocean. True, true. We're cleaning up an island. Like who wants to go to a beautiful deserted island and find trash? Nobody.
- [10:29]
A
Nobody.
- [10:29]
B
Sounds controversial.
- [10:30]
A
Well, that's actually, let's say I try to explain and then I guess that the way we're doing things, it's not try to, let's say educate people like oh, what should you do? There are tons of that kind of sessions in the last decades, right? We got educated saying like, oh, don't use plastic. Plastic going to flood into the ocean, kill the marine animals or try to reduce the waste of the paper cups, all of that stuff. Or try to use ev other than the petroleum cars or big ass engine cars, we had that kind of education all the time. But the result we see is not that much. The only thing we learned is if you incentivize people to do something good that will be much, much more effective and eventually drive people to grow a positive behavior. Eventually like what I'm doing. I started to use a mug shot almost a year ago and now I carry my mug everywhere I go and I even feel bad if I forgot my mug in the hotel, in my home. And I look at the, when I go to the coffee shop, I was like, oh, what should I order? I didn't have my mug, you know, the paper cup. I feel like so bad. I feel guilty about that. That's a trick. That's a trick. So incentivize people to do the right thing. And I think even Elon Musk is doing the same. You know, I had A friend. Well, it's a very controversial friend. He actually, after the Trump's election, you kind of like, oh, I'm Democrats, I got to. I hate about you guys. He sold out his Tesla.
- [12:14]
B
A lot of people are doing it.
- [12:15]
A
Yeah, a lot of people did that. Right. And he just tried to present his perspective about this. A few months later he came back, he's saying like, no, I cannot afford or I cannot stand the other cars. I like my Tesla, I miss my Tesla. I want to get back to my Tesla. So which I'm saying like the Tesla as an EV or any other EV brands, they are building a nice car, they're building a nice functionality, nice features, then people like that. And then you're using the ev, which while you're doing sustainability, as an effort to make the world a better place, other than I just educate you, I even try to punish you if you don't do the right thing. I think the incentivized model is so much more effective. That's what we're doing. Actually.
- [13:09]
B
It's interesting. That model's been proven with like whoop bands and oura rings and people tracking their health. I know so many people and I said, why do you do that? Like, why do you care how many steps you take? Because they start to gamify it and feel accountable and then get healthier as a result. I need one because I'm the worst sleeper in the world and everyone I know who's a terrible sleeper is like, well, now I track my sleep and I sleep better.
- [13:32]
A
Oh, exactly right. So you get, firstly you get, we call it positive feedback from those collection, from those data and you know, oh, I improved a bit comparing yesterday, comparing last week. You feel inspired, you feel motivated, you're going to continue to do that. So that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Incentivize people to do things is much better than just educate only or even punish for not doing that. Because eventually most of the sustainable cases, you got to put some efforts, there is some convenience you have to sacrifice always, right? So like I said to the Mugsha, you need to carry the mug always with your bag or with yourself. Then that's a convenience you got to sacrifice. But you feel better because you are cutting the waste of the paper cup. Remember, as a humankind, we kind of consume 160 billion or 200 billion paper cups every year. It's coming from 6.5 million trees. Just think about that. It's very, very, let's say, powerful message and kind of impacting People's mentality like, oh, I'm not just doing that for a small incentive. A few tokens I can receive. But also I'm saving trees. I got a friend, not crypto guy at all. And I introduced her like, okay, you can use a Mark Shaw. She said, oh, that's nice. I can get to 10 cents back, 20 cents back. That's great. But eventually, a few weeks later when I meet her again and we're kind of toasted with a coffee, well, it's quite a usual thing in Italy, right? I live in Milan. And she's like, hey, Sonny, let's save in the trees. That's great.
- [15:20]
B
I shouldn't say make money.
- [15:21]
A
Yeah, that's great, right? That's even better than just making money. So the incentive is not only about the financial incentive, but also like, you know, you're emotional, you feel accomplished something, you feel part of the big cause to eventually make the world a better place. And you are proud of that stuff.
- [15:40]
B
I think it gives you an excuse to do the right thing that you wanted to do anyways and not be lazy. It's just that one little push.
- [15:47]
A
One little push. Exactly, exactly. But that part, you know, it's. If you don't have anything, and that's a very hard move, you might do it like, okay, if I do it one day, two days, three days in a row. But it's hard to become a behavior. Remember the 21 days rule. You got to do something 21 days in a row then becomes your behavior. That's what we better at all try to do. To incentivize everybody, to make the positive behavior or actions become your thing, become your natural behavior, natural habits, and then you will do it every day. And when we call more people to join and the collective results just immense.
- [16:32]
B
I would say I don't want to take for granted that people know what vbetterdao is and what the app is. And so give the quick explainer on exactly how this actually works and what you've built.
- [16:43]
A
Sure. Well, vbetterdao is firstly vbetter.com and vbetterdao.org is our website. So you can go to the website to check for everything. And vbetterdao is a platform to foster different type of. We call it X to earn applications and then people, let's say to incentivize individual people to do better action, make a better choice on daily basis. And you get rewards in crypto right away. So basically you do a little bit effort, you have a free crypto to incentivize yourself and drive for the real impacts to the whole world.
- [17:22]
B
Is it presented like a rewards program, airline miles or credit card miles or Starbucks points?
- [17:30]
A
That's a very good example, but it's bigger because there is no barriers. Think about that. You get the loaded points from Starbucks or airline miles you only can use in that company or in the premises of the company, whatever their products, their services, upgrade your flights, those type of things. But that reward program actually becomes an ecosystem and the multiple different user scenarios are kind of connected to each other. Imagine that you go to a coffee shop, you order coffee with your recycle mug, you earn the freepo freak token and then next thing you go to the Whole Foods and you can use that token to pay for. By the way, we just launched a white label stalag pay solution. So basically top the better token along with VAT and VSOOR to pay for anything you want. So basically it's a crypto credit card, but we name it as a better card to incentivize people those spending the money by spending you spending is actually coming from your bad actions. So pretty cool. We just launched it yesterday. So the user could go to the next thing to pay for anything you want with your better rewards. And then based on what you buy and how you buy, let's say you can buy fruits, vegetables, you can pay cashless, you can use a recycle bag as in the paper or even plastic bag. Then you get more rewards and next thing you go to the Tesla supercharged, you charge your car and you can pay for that. And also you gain more rewards. So basically eventually the user kind of stay in this ecosystem. Just from one thing to another, that's the ecosystem we try to build.
- [19:20]
B
Can the rewards eventually be enough that it is completely self sustaining? You can go get $20 worth of groceries with whatever you well behavior.
- [19:30]
A
Well, you gotta, you gotta put quite a big effort for sure. But that's our goal. That's our goal. Well, once we have actually we are already in the right position now better just getting more than a million users in the last 10 months.
- [19:45]
B
That's crazy.
- [19:46]
A
And honestly I'm very proud of that. Even though comparing with Web2 comparing with Web2, 1 million is nothing. Right? But in the Web3 world, a real life application, one minute user. I'm really proud of that.
- [19:58]
B
In the Web3 world. Yeah, Web3 world, one user is impressive. Yeah.
- [20:03]
A
Well, we set up as a milestone, 1 minute as the first milestone, we just achieved that. But imagine we have 5 million user, 10 million user, 20 minute user. Then we will be able to connect those enterprise also to somehow injecting the value into the ecosystem. And people basically can do the better actions, make a better choice. Like you said, self sufficient about what you do. Sure, somebody will still be lazy, somebody still have lots of other stuff to do, but at least we can encourage people eventually to be able to get rewarded and pay for your living. I'm not saying 100%, but even cover 20%, 50%. That's great. By your choice. Right?
- [20:53]
B
This isn't the first iteration of VeChain.
- [20:56]
A
No, no. We keep iterating. Right. But we never change the course.
- [21:01]
B
Right. But it's interesting because now it's a mainstream use case for the individual to earn your token by doing the right thing. But you've had utility for a very very long time. And I remember in previous cycles there were these passionate like people that I talked to that like they had V chain names, Ven Warrior and all these things. But because you were literally working with the biggest companies in the world on supply chain management. Right. You've had utility for all of these years while everybody else has seemingly gone.
- [21:36]
A
Yeah, well that's true actually by different stages. I usually call Vechain has a three white paper journey. The first, I think we may be the only one in the crypto world keep iterating our white paper. And the first white paper was initialized in 2017 for launching the ICO tell people what kind of platform we want to build. And then 2019 we released the second version of White paper. So basically it's focus on the enterprise adoptions like you said, all of the supply chain cases. Food safety platform for Walmart, China, a bunch of the luxury brands starting from Givenchy sustainability project for H and M&BYD. Even some of the directly like yesterday we're doing the full ocean project. Actually we have received for ocean cleanup starting from 2021 or 22. So those are. Let's say we call it enterprise adoption. But also we find let's say a good part and also a bad part. The good part is most of the enterprise has a common consensus or common direction. Think about what should I do with a new technology or what is the most of the challenge I'm encountering and I'm looking for some new technology can bring the new solution. Actually it is sustainability areas is missing. There is a gap between enterprise and the users enterprise feel like I have done so much I put the money into that I even motivate my employees to do Something good for the world. But why do my retail users or my retail clients not really buy it? The retail clients feel like what you really do? I mean, eventually I only get the result as an ESG report, which I don't even want to read about it. So that's a huge gap for most of the enterprise. That's the number one. And number two is in most of the sustainability cases, individuals kind of missing out and they even feel bad about the sustainability narrative or feel like, okay, that's greenwash. That's weaponized. A very simple reason, because you have to pay extra to be sustainable. If you go to buy some recycled products, your cost is probably higher than the normal stuff you buy. So that's a gap we believe blockchain can solve, crypto can solve. That's a good part from what we're learning from those enterprise applications. But also there is a bad part about those applications is they're missing a very important feature or element out of the blockchain technology. It's token. Most of the supply chain applications or enterprise applications, they don't have a token in play. Sure they still pay the transaction fees, but you know, even, even Walmart China last year, if I remember correctly, they kind of contributing 300 million transactions from the business angle, which is a big transaction, big contribution to the vechain networks, but they just paying the gas fees by executing the smart contracts to supporting the business goods for the surprising processes. Different type of business activities, but that's it, right? And I would call it like incremental improvement, not revolutionary change. The real blockchain application needs to have a token in play and somehow designed in the future business models or business applications. That's why we kind of released the latest white paper with Boston consulting group from 2023. We call it the Web3 for better. We want to also touch the retail part, the user part, get the user to be involved. So far so good. Like I said, 1 million users so far. And then we do have expertise and we do have experiences how to engage enterprises. Then the next job to do is put them together and then we are able to build up some really revolutionary business models. The target is, I think everybody in the crypto world, in my mind like last 15 years or 12 years, everybody tried to do the same. How to make not only the individual user but also the enterprise user to use crypto somehow. So that's our goal. So eventually we wanted to put them together, just do the different type of the job. Enterprise has a big resource, big investment, structured the organization Products and individuals can do the efforts, but put them together. I think that's essential part of the web suite. It's no more just, oh, you have to be an employee for some organization, then you can join together to do something. No, that's not Web3. Web3. We can have a framework, we have a consensus and then everybody just do their own part and eventually put together. It's creating huge impacts or huge results.
- [27:02]
B
When I think about this, the crypto natives obviously love tokens, but they're not the ones that end up adopting or caring about utility, which I've found a little disheartening. We have bitcoin and then we found out that everything else is basically a big casino and the interest in everything in the middle has been less than I think. So you have to go to the mainstream. You have to go to the UFC audience and present them something that they don't even know is crypto to get them to actually care. Why do you think that the crypto native audience hasn't cared as much about utility over the past few years as they used to?
- [27:42]
A
I would say that's for me, as one of the veterans in the crypto world for 12 years, it's kind of big disappointment.
- [27:53]
B
Yeah, that's what I said.
- [27:53]
A
It's disheartening, it's very disappointing. But also I think it's even quite like right now it's. We're kind of in a very critical moment. I even feel like it's a sense of urgency right now. If crypto world continue like this way, blockchain not going to be like Internet 2.0 per se, like you said, it's going to be just a purely casino. Actually, last November I was in the Thai the institutional events in New York and I was listening to what Mike Novogratz, the founder and the CEO of Galaxy, he said same thing when the moderator asked him try to ask him something about memicoin. And Mike was saying like, okay, don't get me started. And if next four, five years, if we're still here, talk about mimicoin only that means no future for this whole industry. But in terms of reason, I would say the simple one could be just money fact.
- [29:01]
B
Yeah, we found out that there are a bunch of gamblers trying to make a quick buck.
- [29:04]
A
That's a human nature, right? That's the human nature. You cannot rule out that. But also I think the crypto or the blockchain, even starting from the first use case, as bitcoin is so close to money, so close to let's say the finance use cases or finance applications I still call Bitcoin is Finance Application 1 of the Finance application out of the blockchain technology because it's so close to money, then we cannot rule out those dark side of the human nature. Quick money. Everybody loves quick money. If you can just do a little work but gain a big money out of it, then everybody want to just dive into that. So eventually that's why I really disappointed if the whole market is like that, that means no future or no evolving of the technology and eventually to the industries, to the to whatever the application we're sinking.
- [30:14]
B
It makes you wonder if the fact that these tokens that can have incredible utility gain a benefit or whether it's a bad thing that they're openly tradable on the free market because it ends up that they become speculative instruments. They're generally pretty illiquid. So it's pretty easy for people to move the price around. And the price moving around so much doesn't help the underlying use case. Like what if there was a world where your token is just in that ecosystem but doesn't freely trade to give it volatile value?
- [30:45]
A
I would say it's very dangerous. I mean for short term, sure, fine, like everybody getting excited by the news, by the fluctuation. But eventually it's just a matter of the time. If there's no utility, then you don't have a reason to be existed. Right? So think about I would call I like your history. So if you go back to the Internet, you can find a similar pattern even in the Internet. When Internet gets started, everybody get crazy about setting up the website. There are tons amount of website company even go listed. Yahoo, sohu, aol, you name it, right? Are they really, let's say generating competitive unique value out of it? No, we're doing the same thing.
- [31:33]
B
Everybody doing the same thing.
- [31:35]
A
Everybody doing the same thing. Everybody's setting up the website. Even the contents in the website is basically same because There was A1 news and everybody tried to say the same thing. So that's the website. But website sure it is a revolutionary change or revolutionary product for the user. But that type of let's say period eventually trigger the Internet bubble explodes. And then after the bubble explodes people are kind of focused on okay, is there any new utility, any new value could have coming from Internet technology itself. Then we see like Amazon becomes the biggest E commerce platform. Facebook taking care of the social media platform. Even today's like TikTok, Instagram, they're even going further. But that means you Gotta have value. You gotta eventually let people feel like I needed to use that. Right. I can live on that. That means you gotta have some functionality, some utility. Well, honestly, if it's just purely trading demands, yeah, for now, maybe it's okay. But eventually you will be replaced. You will be replaced.
- [32:46]
B
Critics always talk about crypto like the Internet bubble. They talked about the late 90s and early 2000s, but they always point out all of the things that failed and all the problems. I actually think it's a great comparison for the future success of crypto. I say this all the time because of the reason you said so. Maybe 99% of it gets washed out and it's complete garbage and it's pets.com and net taxes and all these things. But the 1% that succeeds are the companies that end up changing the entire world.
- [33:16]
A
The ultimate winner.
- [33:17]
B
So there will be 10 things in crypto that come out of each of these bubbles and rise to be the.
- [33:24]
A
Well, maybe crypto is a new thing, right? Just for 15 years, coming from the 2009, a little bit more than 15 years, but actually we see the similar patterns coming from the Internet in the last 30 years, last 40 years. So there's no new thing under the sun, actually. It's just you got to follow the natural law, I have to say. And eventually, like I said, I still stick on utility creation, value creation. I don't want to just spend all of the budget or just for marketing or just for communication, but kind of missing the critical part, which is back to the product itself. So what I learned, whatever from all of the successful giants before, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, those type of guys, product is still the fundamental thing. You got to let people to love to use your product and then that means your product has a value. Then you should link back to the valuation of your platform. To a token, you got to have a demand. If just purely trading, it's not going to last long. Not going to last long?
- [34:40]
B
No, there's always be something else.
- [34:42]
A
And Also I think 2025 is going to be very critical for that kind of change.
- [34:47]
B
So I want to talk about that. What I was going to go back to, I was going to say literally a few minutes ago you said we're at this critical moment and you just said it again. So I've been saying over and over again is that we have this sort of Goldilocks phase here, where all of a sudden all of the inhibitors, all the obstacles that we've had, namely regulation, legislation, the administration in the United States are gone. So we were able to scream from the sidelines this whole time how unfair it is. We have this incredible technology, we're building all these important things get out of our way. Okay, now they're out of our way.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah.
- [35:25]
B
So talk about a critical moment.
- [35:26]
A
Exactly.
- [35:27]
B
If we can't prove right now that what's being built in crypto is worthwhile, then yeah.
- [35:33]
A
So the fundamental question now is what to be regulated. We're crying for regulation support. We're crying for, okay, don't just get in our way. We need a support, we need a clarity of the regulations. Okay. Now MICA just launched in Europe and that and VSOOR just get confirmed in the compliance, which is good. And also to us, starting from the stablecoin regulation. That's great. And what's next? What to be regulated or what kind of the products from all of the builders in the crypto world needs the support. Need, what kind of support from the regulators? Right. So I think right now we don't have excuse anymore. We don't say, oh, because of the Biden administration, because of Gary Gantz.
- [36:22]
B
We have no one to blame but ourselves if, if this doesn't catch some sort of meaningful adoption.
- [36:27]
A
Exactly. That's why I'm saying, I keep saying, I telling everyone the sense of urgency we're going to do things right now because now the boy is in our hands. If we don't have any real utility, real value, real application model to show to the regulators that's the right thing to do. And then eventually we're kind of serving the bullets to our enemies. They will come back saying, see, that's why we don't want to regulate you guys. That's why we call you guys bad players or kind of rock pool, all of that stuff. That's why. So we're getting a very critical moment. We need to seize the momentum and focus on building the real utility and show to the regulators, work with the regulators. And what is the regulation eventually do? I mean, I really like applying, applying the first principle rule everywhere. The regulation is really incentivize or motivate the good guys and punish the bad guys, driving for the innovation, driving for creating the real value out of the new technology. That's it. That's it. But if you, let's say if the builders in the crypto market are not really striving for the real utility, real value to really bring the real application in the real life, then regulators has nothing to regulate. So no excuse, guys, I talk to.
- [37:54]
B
My friends about this all the time. My normie friends, we all have normie friends who talked about your Normie friend with the mug. They're Wall street guys, a lot of them consultants. They were investment bankers, private equity, VC across the board, everything. And some of them over the years I've been able to convince to at least buy some bitcoin or participate. A lot of them got caught in the NFT craze or doge at the time, even those very smart guys. But when I asked them recently, I said, how are you viewing this industry now that we have some clarity or we're allowed to do things? Sadly, they still go, well, Bybit got hacked for 1.5 billion eth. And they don't understand how that happens or that happens. And they go, and Trump made a mockery of you with his meme coin. Everybody talks about the token.
- [38:41]
A
Yeah.
- [38:43]
B
Yes, he to some degree has given us our moment, but he also put in a ceiling for people's expectations, I think, of what we are.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah, well, especially about that. I mean, we talk about like, what is a barrier about going to the mainstream. Right. And going to the non crypto people. Sure, there were many infrastructures, many products we need to catch up. But also we cannot let people only hang on the bad news, only even by nature, bad news spreading faster. That's reality. But also we need to bring more real utilities. I feel like we should get more exciting news like, oh, Mark Shell just reached to 1 million users. There were 100,000 Tesla drivers.
- [39:30]
B
Nobody talks about utility. It's like not even a part of the narrative anymore.
- [39:35]
A
Yeah, that's. We try to make it different. We try to turn upside down about this kind of market sentiment. That's not, I mean, the current market sentiment, like I said, I'm really disappointing. And also we should do something different and we should really start to. Firstly, we cannot be alone, we cannot be the only one to build the real utility application. We should get more. More people really focus on the exciting good news for the mass adoptions. Right. And also all of the. Well, I'm sure we have been in multiple different crypto events. It cannot be just like a party place.
- [40:17]
B
I don't go anymore.
- [40:18]
A
Exactly.
- [40:18]
B
I was supposed to be in Paris right now.
- [40:20]
A
We met.
- [40:21]
B
It's an amazing conference. We were in Paris. Actually I announced you in Paris last year when you went on stage. But not that it's an incredible conference. I would go, but I found it, as you were about to say, I think so repetitive and it's just basically like an excuse for a bunch of people to get together.
- [40:37]
A
And the same people moving from one place to another place is always the same people.
- [40:41]
B
It's like a traveling party. We need that party to get a lot bigger.
- [40:45]
A
Yeah. And also we need to drive more focus on getting everyone excited about. Okay, that technology can really change my life or really can do the positive effects. So I was making fun with Alex, the CEO from 4Ocean, yesterday. I think you guys hosting that event, like going to the small island, pick up the trash and save the marine animals even. I don't know if you notice in the end yesterday there was a dolphin jump out of the ocean surface.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah.
- [41:20]
A
And we get crazy about that. I would say, see dolphins say thank you to us. Right. I mean, this type of events, I think it's more meaningful and also more driving people to like, you know, how to use the technology to make the world better place. It's so much better. Just a free boost. And, you know, in the different parties.
- [41:41]
B
Yeah. I mean, the more we talk about it, it feels like most of the things that have been created in crypto are either a cash grab, even if the person doesn't know it's a cash grab. The way that it's structured, the tokenomics, everything kind of a cash grab. But that it's a lot of solutions that are looking for problems.
- [41:59]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [42:00]
B
And what you have is actually using the technology to solve something that everyone agrees with. So everybody thinks, as we going back to the beginning, like, sustainability is important. Everybody is on board with incentivizing for it. And this happens to be the perfect technology to do that. But you didn't have to build a technology to convince people that sustainability matters.
- [42:22]
A
Well, yeah.
- [42:23]
B
And that's what a lot of people are trying to do. I think they come up with some sort of nascent idea. It's weird. And then you have a bunch of builders and Internet nerds and guys who don't know how to market and they don't know anything about anything else. They don't know how to run a company. And then they go out to find somebody to use their solution for.
- [42:42]
A
You definitely. Right. 100%, 200%. Right. That's tricky. That's a. That's a trick we use. Let's say sustainability. You don't need to convince anybody. People just like, oh, yeah, I know that's the right thing to do. The only thing you need to put the effort is, oh, I might need to sacrifice a little bit convenience. And then if I get compensated by, you know, getting a rewards, it makes.
- [43:05]
B
It worth getting paid. For that incremental.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah. Other than like pay extra for being sustainable. That that's kind of doesn't make any sense. Right. That part is, I will call it the easy part, but the difficult part or challenging part which we're working is to get everybody, not necessarily only the crypto guys are able to use those applications like most of the application. Even yesterday we show the full Ocean Cleanify application. You can use Google login, you can use a Google account login and also the evn. You basically use a Tesla account to log in the applications. Well, I really respect and love Tesla. They have open sourced everything, open infrastructure, open interfaces. And sure you got to pass the audits, you got to pass the authorization, but once they authorize upon the user agreement, you can use the APIs. So right now you log in the EVM with Tesla account and the car profile just uploaded automatically. And every time you charge your car, the charging data automatically goes to smart contract.
- [44:16]
B
You get rewards, you can't do anything.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah.
- [44:18]
B
In that case you don't even need to take a picture of trash that you picked up. Just connect your account.
- [44:23]
A
Yeah. And imagine we can expand to more enterprise use cases. For example, like when you order in Starbucks or Costco Costa. And if in this sales system to point like okay, you use a recycled mug, I will. Other than the paper cup, then that data is enough for us, is more accurate, more authentic and then people get rewards about it right away. So what we're trying to do is try to expand more to even. One of my goal is even getting. I call it a wallet. But that's not my. Let's say I want to make this not a wallet or I want to make it as a sustainable actions other than the wallet. Even though I'm very proud about the V word as our wallet. It's very easy and friendly one to use. But I want to make V word as a sustainability application.
- [45:18]
B
I was playing with it again yesterday because I had to. I already had a wallet, but you know, to enter the address to get my UFC tickets. So I was actually playing around with the wallet and it is is a huge step forward as far as usability. I think once you're in there, grandma can do it.
- [45:32]
A
Not enough. Not enough.
- [45:33]
B
But you still need a seed phrase.
- [45:34]
A
I need a seed phrase.
- [45:35]
B
You still need to copy and paste the seed phrase and do.
- [45:37]
A
Oh yeah, yeah. So we want to make it even going further the social logins to support the wallet itself or forget about the wallet. Wallet work on the backstage. You just log in to Get a sustainability applications and also getting the AI to help you go through the different type of ecosystem. The AI could tell you well that's my goal. It's going to take time.
- [46:02]
B
That's the natural question is how. So we keep hearing AI blockchain, AI blockchain, AI blockchain. I was talking to Paolo Arduino from Tether the other day and we were kind of projecting crypto forward 5, 10 years and he's like and we always think it's going to go exponential. So to put a grain of salt but he's like yeah, it's going to be a billion robots in 10 years that are powered by AI and they're going to be transacting with each other in stablecoins.
- [46:28]
A
Oh yeah.
- [46:28]
B
He's like on your behalf or independently. And that's what the future of crypto is. Obviously he says that because he's the CEO of Tether, but that could be your token or another token that they're adapting. But like the Kubernetes, the crossover of AI and crypto is coming fast. So how do you account for that? So you're building in an emergence, you're building an emerging technology. Yeah, trying to convince people do that while there's this other completely parallel emerging technology that's going to overtake everything. So now you have to think about that.
- [46:55]
A
Well, let's say I starting from few months ago I've been talking to several investor friends or VCs. By the way, you know I'm also a LP for dripper funds. Tim Dripper crypto fund, Right. I love the guy. And so I got that kind of occasions meeting those VV friends and when we talk about AI as new direction I think the very interesting new trends coming up is people are not really think about or money doesn't think about goes to infrastructure AI anymore like ChatGPT, OpenAI or Groq or putting a new more GPUs, those type of things. Those are no more startup game. If you think even the deep seq. Honestly I think it's a little bit like narrative saying like oh we use a $5 million to train the model and everything. It's not true. They got tons of GPUs in the past few years. Maybe the last training spend like $5 million. Right. Well anyway that's a different story. But let's say the AI infrastructure becomes let's say a numbers game or big players game. You got to think about billions of dollars go there. So forget about those startups. Even the algorithm now the new trends is go open source, which I think it's very, very good. So then the, the money goes. Actually they think about going to a.
- [48:37]
B
Real AI applications, the application layer.
- [48:41]
A
So if you're by the way, if you are trying to do an AI company, try to work on your pitch deck or BP or something, don't say you're an AI company anymore. You should say I'm doing an AI application. To solve what kind of exactly the problem or making some improvement, something like that. So for us, VeChain define three steps AI strategy as well. But majorly following these trends like AI application, it's using the AI to support or build some application to support the growth of the vechain ecosystem. So the number one, the short term vision is to get the AI as a tooling. Right now 40% of our engineers are using AI to increase the efficiency and productivity of coding. That's great. That means we are delivering quick and quick. Also the contents creation. You can use multiple different AI tools. So the AI tooling is the first step. And then midterm is using the AI to enable more applications. For example, when you do the mug shot, when you take a photo, who is doing the verification? AI is doing the verification. It's not only about the photo. Also considering like okay, where you are GPS data, which Starbucks, basically you're selecting the data from the Google Maps or the receipts is matching, the timestamps is matching. So all of the different type of verification data, AI is processing that for sure. It's a constant battle between the verification and also the farmers. There are so many farmers. But so far, even for Markshaw, based on our internal investigation, it's only 3,4% of farmer situation.
- [50:40]
B
Right. But it's interesting because it goes back to what we were talking about before. You're using AI to better your product. Not. Yeah, so it's a. You have a problem, not a problem, but let's say a problem solution. Something that can be improved in your business. And you're using it as a solution.
- [50:58]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [50:58]
B
Not a solution in search of a problem.
- [51:00]
A
No, no, no.
- [51:02]
B
Right. You're. You're integrating it in a way that improves your core business without fully pivoting to it or trying to reinvent the wheel.
- [51:09]
A
Yeah. So basically the AI is using almost every actual applications. We even wanted to create some kind of standard format to even help community builders saying like, okay, that's what we learned, that's what we do. Even we wanted to help them to negotiate with the AI providers. Like okay, don't everybody spend $100 here, $200 here. Let's group together and we can share that kind of subscriptions to enable more external applications. So that's a midterm, but long term we want to make AI real AI agent inside of Vechain ecosystem. So basically you can, let's say, well, you know, we have a Moscow all.
- [51:53]
B
The apps to talk to each other.
- [51:55]
A
Yeah. So remember we have a Moscow, the BMO guy, the little robot. Right. And basically when you talk to vbetao ecosystem, talk to Bimo, ask for suggestions, ask for help. You can ask him, for example, you say okay, help me to swap hundred VAT to how many better tokens and top to my credit card so I can pay for my coffee. And then you just say that maybe later on you can use the Meta glass to just say it. And then they would do the job. And when you arrive in a coffee shop, boom, start a biddle now.
- [52:35]
B
Yeah. Or ask it a question and say, hey, I'm taking a picture of this trash. Is there another way that I can get incentivized for this? Is there another way I can earn money besides the one that I'm doing?
- [52:45]
A
Well, that's what I'm wearing the Meta Glass yesterday, right?
- [52:48]
B
Yeah.
- [52:49]
A
And basically you can just say, hey.
- [52:51]
B
I have my pair in my bag.
- [52:52]
A
Yeah, hey, Meta, take a photo. Think about that with Markshaw with Cleanify just ease the user journey. For sure it will require the integration with meta later on, but I think.
- [53:04]
B
Feature glasses coming soon. I knew you're a consumer product guy, man, you're lvmh.
- [53:12]
A
No, no, we're not going to do it by ourselves, but why not collaborate with others to leverage to collaborate. But also think about there's even more. You know, we're launching the Vechain Renaissance with the tokenomics upgrades. So you can talk to the BMO saying like okay, I have a 5 million VAT. What should I do?
- [53:32]
B
Yeah, right now what?
- [53:33]
A
And then we say, oh, you can go to Mint 1 delegated NFT. You can choose what kind of validator and what is a projected returns I can see in the next 30 days or 60 days, something like that. So the AI basically I would say again, AI application to ease and help the user journey and play even more or more convenience to do the real thing, use the real application and make the ecosystem grow bigger and bigger.
- [54:08]
B
So a million users are incredible. But I need a really good clickbait. I need a really good clickbait title and it's got to have a huge number in it. So now I'm going to say how do we get to a billion users? And I've been asking, I probably asked you this, we sat down. I've asked you this probably every time.
- [54:24]
A
Well, that's my goal.
- [54:25]
B
Right, but how do we get to a billion users? Because everybody has an answer and we're going to do this and that and that. But you know, nothing's caught fire yet besides stablecoins. I think we'll have a billion people using stablecoins in the next few years.
- [54:38]
A
Yeah, I would say number one is the product. You got to keep building your product. Whatever we talk about, the social login, the payment solution, even the AI agent to make people's user journey even more smooth, more friendly. Product, product, product. That's always number one, focus. So we got to keep iterating the product. That's what I keep saying to my team. We can start quick but we should iterate all the way up. So we basically reviewing with the technical team, a product team like sometimes once a week, some aspects like twice a week or even once a month maximum. We need to. I usually ask the. I use the same trick as Elon Musk saying I always asking, okay, what's new this week? What's going to do? What's new in the roadmap for next two months or one quarter, something like that. So keep iterating your product and focus on the user friendly features for non crypto users. That's definitely massive. You know, you cannot just focus on crypto user only. You're never going to reach 1 billion. I mean if we reach 1 billion then everybody is a crypto user.
- [55:46]
B
I'm 100% convinced after our conversations. Yeah, Any project that's focused on pleasing people who already understand crypto is going to zero. No, but that's what we've done for all these years and they, like I said, they just ended up.
- [56:01]
A
Yeah.
- [56:02]
B
Dumping meme coins on each other.
- [56:03]
A
Exactly.
- [56:04]
B
You know, on Pump Fun. Yeah, you can't. The crypto people don't really deeply care about the utility and the product. But also what I hear is I know your background because we're friends. But you're a product guy.
- [56:18]
A
Yeah, I'm a product guy.
- [56:19]
B
Right.
- [56:19]
A
I really enjoy that.
- [56:20]
B
But I think you're. That is a massive benefit to your approach because you can actually reach a normal person with what you're building. And you come from lvmh, right?
- [56:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:33]
B
Again, most people who are in crypto are not approaching it from the user perspective.
- [56:40]
A
Yeah, well, we Should.
- [56:41]
B
I think that's really the problem. I think we need to start ignoring the actual crypto people who are there to make money and just think about grandma.
- [56:49]
A
Exactly. Exactly. So first, for product. Right?
- [56:54]
B
Of course.
- [56:54]
A
And second, we still need to have a massive outrage. We still need to market.
- [57:02]
B
It's not going to just happen.
- [57:03]
A
And then we have the biggest gun in the world. We have Dana officially joined as official advisor of Vechain and willing to, like I said, he quote his words, I want to go all in to support you guys.
- [57:18]
B
I saw it. Yeah, I know. It's not a lie. People with most. That's what I said before. Like, most people get a celebrity endorsement and call it an advisor.
- [57:25]
A
No. Right. It's a guy.
- [57:26]
B
It's a guy you can put in a FTX commercial or something. Right?
- [57:29]
A
Yeah. And even yesterday, some. Some. Some guys are saying, like, hey, Sonny, Dana is being real. I mean. I mean. What do you mean? He said, oh, I thought he just come over to make a pose, take some photo.
- [57:41]
B
And he literally cleaned up trash for at least 45 minutes.
- [57:44]
A
Yeah.
- [57:45]
B
And we were sweating by the time we.
- [57:46]
A
Well, yeah. And also, you see the bag, it's like 10 pounds or 20. 20 pounds of the garbage from that. And he's keep doing that. Even when we're talking, he's keep doing that.
- [57:56]
B
But I asked him about 4Ocean, and he's. And Alex from 4Ocean told me the same thing. They didn't reach out to him for some sort of endorsement. He literally saw what they were doing years ago and said, you guys are cool. Reached out to them blind. Imagine Dana White calls you one day and says, I like what you're doing, and starts introducing them. No money, no nothing to all these people. I mean, you truly have convinced him that this is something that's important that he needs to be a part of without the monetary incentive. Of course. It's wonderful that you're a sponsor, but they can get money from anyone.
- [58:27]
A
Well, there are many.
- [58:31]
B
I guess Bud Light is back. Now we have Bud Light up here. Right. But they can take money from anyone.
- [58:36]
A
Yeah. And when I talked to Dana, I was like, Dana was like, oh, how can I help you? I say, well, Dana, I'm an engineer. I'm a product guy. Right. And I really suck about the communication or marketing.
- [58:49]
B
He's the master.
- [58:50]
A
And he's like, oh, that's my thing. So, okay.
- [58:52]
B
He told me that. He said, listen, he's like, I didn't invent ufc. I didn't invent Power Slap. There was A bunch of guys in Poland.
- [58:58]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [58:59]
B
He's like, what I know how to do is create the spark and make it absolutely huge. But you guys are now the lead sponsor on Power Slap. So. I've seen Power Slap. It was, like, in my videos before I think it became an official thing. I said this to him. I think maybe it was the wrong terminology. I said, it's like a train wreck because you can't look away. I didn't mean to insult him, but I'm like. But no, it's like, you know that this is ridiculous. Like, it's literally two guys standing there saying, slapping each other and.
- [59:26]
A
But you cannot keep your eyes off. You know, you've chosen.
- [59:29]
B
Like, you're going to be like, we're going to be the lead positive on Power Slap. So talk to me about that. That's amazing.
- [59:34]
A
I respect that guy. Yeah. I respect.
- [59:36]
B
If he says it's going to be the thing you say, I'm going to support it the same way he supports.
- [59:40]
A
Yeah, he proved it. He proved it with UFC 20 years ago. UFC is nothing. And Dana said that literally they spent $2 million only for three letters. Not even a domain. They don't have a domain by then. 20 years ago. And also according to Dana, is a bunch of crap. They have to restart everything from scratch, and 20 years later, it's a $20 billion company. $20 billion global, massive sports league.
- [60:10]
B
Something he and I also talked about, but that you'll probably have more insight into. What I find interesting about the partnership, or in general about ufc, is that it very much mirrors crypto's journey. So I said this to him, and we were talking about it. He was talking to world leaders. Now he's going to meet the Prime Minister of England. He's in China.
- [60:31]
A
I was here.
- [60:32]
B
Ambassadors, right? Yeah. You were there. He was banned in these places.
- [60:35]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [60:36]
B
Like, not. Not even just there. Like, he was banned in New York. You know what I mean? So UFC people forget. It was kind of like crypto going through its regulatory challenges, and it's just for scammers or criminals or whatever. UFC had that same journey.
- [60:49]
A
Yeah.
- [60:49]
B
Of being illegitimate and him out there as an ambassador fighting in each jurisdiction for it to be. And now he's meeting with Prime Minister.
- [61:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, he said exactly the same thing when we were in London.
- [61:04]
B
But that's crypto.
- [61:05]
A
Yeah, that's a crypto. Exactly like a crypto. So again, the number two, like I said, you know, leverage. And also take getting the support from Dana. We're Just getting so lucky. And so I'm so confident, honestly, with Dana's support. Then we're going to outreach anybody in the world.
- [61:27]
B
So besides being on the shirt, UFC V chain and the signs everywhere, what activations will you do at UFC events and such to get people to actually download and start using?
- [61:39]
A
Oh, yeah, many different things actually. We even. I was discussing with our mutual friend aj, we're going to give away Tesla cars. I'm going to give away. I going to give away. I mean, besides all of the process. Well, you know, vet and viso get compliance. Right. So there are lots. There are also some of the challenges in terms of operational, especially in the finance area. So I say, okay, forget about that. I would do that by myself and I'll use my own vat, use my own vet to incentivize people participating the different type of sweepstakes. And you know, you could be also including the UFC tickets, money you cannot buy experiences. And usually we have some kind of mixer for every UFC fight. So we gather around like 1530 community members in that city wherever UFC goes, and we talk about the VCHAM upgrades, some new products and getting the feedbacks. So those are activations we have been doing with UFC for a long time and now we're expanding to power Slab and also, like I said, starting from the next city. Kansas. Kansas City, we're going to have PBR and wwe.
- [62:58]
B
Professional bull riding.
- [62:59]
A
Yeah, professional bull riding. We're going to have a vet.
- [63:02]
B
You're like the most. You're like the most American dude I've ever met. Drinking beer and riding bulls and fake wrestling.
- [63:11]
A
You know, the funny thing is I didn't know, but I just discovered a couple of weeks ago, PBR did one event in New York City.
- [63:19]
B
Yeah.
- [63:20]
A
In Madison Square.
- [63:21]
B
Madison Square Garden.
- [63:21]
A
Yeah.
- [63:22]
B
I was like, bull riding is awesome. No matter where we go. These things shouldn't be like a left, right? No red state, blue state thing.
- [63:31]
A
Eventually it's fun, right? People like to have fun. So what then I'll reach into more users, let them know what we're doing and encourage them to come to us and come to our platform. Use our application drive for the user growth as an eventual goal.
- [63:51]
B
So there's that side of the American populace that probably still in their mind has a sustainability is bullshit attitude. I should say ESG and all of that, climate change, global warming, you know, we've all seen that become political. But in your experience now working with UFC and trying to get your average normal person to care, have you had any pushback about sustainability or the crypto side or anything like that?
- [64:25]
A
No, again, most of people know like the sustainability is the right thing to do, but instead of just being like a previous way top down strategy or weaponize or greenwash, those type of concepts. No, take the crap out. No crap. Just do actions. Just do actions. I'm not trying to educate you. Like the earth's gonna explode, the temperature gonna up to 100 degrees or whatever and no one gonna survive.
- [64:56]
B
No, that doesn't resonate.
- [64:58]
A
Yeah. I'm just saying, like do that small thing, you get rewards. That's it.
- [65:03]
B
It's easy.
- [65:04]
A
Yeah, it's easy. And the way you do that, like yesterday in the full ocean cleanup, Right. When we do that, I was like, I really having a mixed feeling. I feel so great. I'm doing this, getting out, beautiful Sunday sunny day. And also pick up the trash, make the place beautiful island, like even get more clean. I feel good about that. But on the other side, I feel like, man, we shouldn't do this as a humankind.
- [65:33]
B
Right?
- [65:34]
A
All of the trash. All of the trash, yeah.
- [65:35]
B
The trash shouldn't be there in the first place.
- [65:36]
A
The plastics.
- [65:37]
B
I wish we could incentivize people not to litter in the first place instead of us having to be incentivized.
- [65:43]
A
Exactly. That's the next thing to do. But also, I also reflect a bit. If next time I go to any beach, enjoy my vacation, I'm not gonna do that kind of shit. No, I'm not gonna throw the garbage, destroy the place.
- [65:59]
B
There were boats, There was a, like a popped, humongous plastic raft, Huge grill, like a rusty old grill. Lawn chairs, I mean, people.
- [66:10]
A
And it was lots of the plastics. Lots and lots of plastics. Just imagine, you know, the plastic could be, you know, ate by the fish. And eventually we're gonna ate those stuff.
- [66:21]
B
Yeah, we do.
- [66:22]
A
That's a microplastic. Yeah, we do. So it's not really by doing that, I just set the impression like, that's not propaganda. That's a real shit. And you know, we're not just saving the world, we're saving ourselves. Literally. That's like why Dana likes us. And also that's why Dana wants to support us. And also that's why we believe whatever the pbr, ufc, pirates Lab, you know, even wwe, we're getting out there. We're using a very simple, powerful message to tell them, do that thing, you get rewards, you're a good guy, and you should get incentivized. That's it. So that's actually. Let's Say Dana's advisories. It's very effective, very strong, very powerful. Genius.
- [67:12]
B
It's something investors have always said. Kiss, kiss. Keep it simple. Oh, yeah.
- [67:16]
A
Keep it a symbol, right? Keep it a symbol. Super simple. It is super simple. So, yeah, that's a number two, you know, product and outreach to massive people. Now we got Dana be the advisor and helping us to go out there. I'm so much confident we can get there. And last but not least is keep iterating. You know, anything not gonna go like only one. One direction. You always up and downs, right? Like a garner hype cycle, hype charts. You have up and downs, that's fine. But you got to hang there and keep iterating, keep refreshing what you do and eventually maintain the same mission as from the day one for mass adoptions. And also, I think I need your help also. We need to call for sense of urgency for the entire crypto market. Cut the crap. Build the real shit. Build the real utility. Otherwise there is no. I mean, just if everybody not doing that or even the majority are not doing that, where's the money goes, right? Where's the money goes? The money goes yards. The money goes to beach house or goes to luxury stuff. No, we need the money. Continue to build the application, drive the user adoption. That's actually exactly what the Internet has done. Internet has been doing like this one side is money. Keep coming to the market and helping the company grows. And then the builders need to build real stuff. Attractive money comes and continue to build, continue to scale up and crypto need that.
- [69:03]
B
I've been really frustrated and disillusioned with the industry. This is like the shot of inspiration that I needed because people forget that there are exceptionally important things being built. I'm convinced you're going to get to a billion.
- [69:17]
A
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [69:18]
B
So where can everybody actually, before I let you go, okay, since we talked about it, what's the best way for people to go Download the apps, start participating, actually start earning, earning rewards.
- [69:28]
A
Vchain Dog, that's our website. And also follow the official account of VChain on Twitter. You get the most of updates in time.
- [69:36]
B
Sunny. Amazing, man. It's always a pleasure.
- [69:38]
A
Thank you so much.
- [69:39]
B
And I can't wait to go to the fight.
- [69:40]
A
Oh, yeah, let's have my tickets.
- [69:42]
B
So I have to say how awesome he is. That's dope.
- [70:00]
A
Let's do.