← The Word on Fire Show - Catholic Faith and Culture
The Word on Fire Show - Catholic Faith and Culture
WOF 498: How to Strengthen Catholic Identity in Catholic Schools
Loading summary
Transcript79 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome back to the Word on Fire Show. I'm Matthew Picusik, senior director of the Word on Fire Institute and the host of the Word on Fire Show. Thank you for joining us. The title of this episode, how to Strengthen Catholic Identity in Catholic Schools, may seem a bit confusing. If Catholic schools are already Catholic, why would they need to become more so? The unfortunate reality, however, is that some Catholic educational institutions are not living up to their name. As some frustrated parents, priests and even teachers who are afraid of losing their jobs for being too Catholic around their colleagues know well, a significant number of Catholic schools not only let down the church by omission, failing to embrace and promote a vigorously Catholic identity, but also in some cases, commission, that is they actively promote values that contradict church teachings. This problem certainly affects Catholic higher education. I used to teach in a Catholic university, for example, that permitted an on campus fundraiser for the abortion giant and trans drug provider Planned Parenthood. However, it's also an issue in some diocesan K12 schools as well, which has led some parents to homeschool their children rather than send them to their local Catholic school. Other parents have even founded entire school systems like the Chesterton Academy that operate independently of their diocese. What has led to Catholic education in some instances to deviate from its mission and what, more importantly, can we do about it? Here to help us think through these questions and to offer some practical advice on how to strengthen Catholic identity in our schools is Bishop Robert Barron. Welcome back to the studio. Bishop.
- [01:50]
B
Hey Matt, good to see you. How are you doing?
- [01:52]
A
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Today we're talking about how to strengthen the Catholic identity of Catholic schools. But before we get to that, what have you been up to recently? I know you've been exceptionally busy.
- [02:03]
B
Yeah, quite a few things. I was at Catholic U, my alma mater, to do the commencement address. That was a great joy just being back there and that whole experience. I saw Tucker Carlson and we did a almost two hour interview with him which was good. I enjoyed the interview a lot, enjoyed him and the questions he asked. So that was good. And then recently back in the diocese here, I've been doing confirmations, so we're coming to the end of confirmation season. But I love confirmations. I've got I think three more as we record this. And then also I did two ordinations in my diocese, the diaconate and then to the priesthood. So happy to say, three guys for the diaconate, three guys for the priesthood. So I've now ordained six for the priesthood since I've been here and we'll have three more next year. So that's pretty good.
- [02:50]
A
And that's the permanent diaconate. Right? They're on their way to become priests.
- [02:53]
B
Yeah, the transitional diaconate.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah, sorry.
- [02:56]
B
On the way to priesthood. So, you know, it'll be nine fellas in three years. So I'm very happy about that.
- [03:03]
A
That's great. And so your interview with Tucker Carlson came out. It already has 4 million views on the X platform.
- [03:09]
B
Well, that's a great thing. I mean, the audience he has, and, you know, my purpose, I'm an evangelist. And so to take advantage of some of these platforms that give you a very wide access, I think is great. And he was terrific. He was very respectful and asked good questions and, you know, seemed genuinely interested. So I enjoyed that very much.
- [03:28]
A
Yeah, it's getting a tremendous response. So let's now look at how to strengthen Catholic identity in Catholic schools. We'll look at some definition of what defines a Catholic school as Catholic in just a moment, but sort of set the table for us. Bishop, what's your experience been like? So you went to Catholic schools?
- [03:43]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [03:43]
A
So what's your experience having sort of seen them change over time? Have there been significant differences?
- [03:49]
B
Yeah, the most significant, I think, as everyone points out, is the transition from a time when Catholic schools were largely staffed by sisters and brothers and people with an explicit, you know, vocation in the church to largely lay led. My generation was kind of a transitional one, so my parents would have come of age and no nuns taught all the classes. When I was a young kid in grade school, both in Michigan and Chicago, there still were a lot of religious teaching. When I was in high school at wonderful Bennett Academy outside Chicago, associated with a Benedictine monastery, there were still a lot of monks. I had monks teaching me science, history, math. So my generation, I think, witnessed the transition from a largely religious to largely lay. That's probably the biggest shift, I would say, and we can talk about some of the implications of that, but that's probably the largest change.
- [04:43]
A
I think it's important to recognize that fact of that change because oftentimes when we're talking about Catholic identity, there's this sort of yearning to go back to the way things were. And the way things were was all dependent upon the high presence of religious in the schools.
- [04:59]
B
Right. And it's always naive to think we could just turn back the clock and all that. So you've got to find a way forward that incorporates the best of what was and then what's available to Us now. But, yeah, that is the challenge. And, you know, obviously, it's made a big difference. When you have a large group of people who are, by religious vocation, dedicated to this, who are not demanding a big salary and any of that, well, that's going to change the whole style of education. When it shifts away from that to something else, obviously it's going to change.
- [05:28]
A
So in order to discuss how to strengthen Catholic identity in schools, we first need to define what defines a Catholic school as. So in a broad sense, Bishop, how do you define a Catholic school as Catholic, not only in relation to public schools, but also sort of private schools? I say we're generically Christian.
- [05:45]
B
Well, I would say this. All Catholic institutions, whether it's a hospital, it's a school, it's a university, it's a seminary, it's a parish, whatever it is, the primary purpose of it is to evangelize. What makes a Catholic institution Catholic is it's declaring the lordship of Jesus and inviting people to share his life in the Church. So if our Catholic hospitals don't do that, they should close. If our Catholic schools don't do that, they should close. The church doesn't need to be sponsoring one more STEM school, one more public school. The whole purpose, the primary purpose, I should say, not the whole purpose, but the primary purpose is to evangelize, declare the lordship of Jesus. And that should be not just a minor concern off on the side. That should be the dominant ethos of the institution that. That affects every aspect of the life of the place. So I would say that that's the test. Are we evangelizing here? I remember years ago in California, I was talking to a board that was in charge of a high school that had a Catholic purpose, at least in principle. And I said just that. And one of the board members said, well, Bishop, I mean, we're going to lose all our students, and it's just the place will close. And I said, good, good. If that isn't the purpose, then I don't want the school enduring. So I think that's in the most basic sense what makes a Catholic school Catholic is the ethos of evangelization pervades the institution.
- [07:13]
A
Does that apply both to K through 12 Catholic schools and Catholic higher education?
- [07:16]
B
Yeah. Any Catholic institution? Yes, indeed, at colleges and universities as well. Their primary purpose is to evangelize. Now, it doesn't mean there aren't secondary purposes and that there's the kind of properly educational elements of it, but even those should be permeated by an ethos of evangelization.
- [07:36]
A
Let's turn to those secondary purposes, especially for the teachers and administrators in our audience. If you could give us a brief description of a Catholic approach to teaching the different fundamental disciplines. So let's start with mathematics. What's a Catholic approach to teaching math?
- [07:55]
B
There's a line from Bertrand Russell, of all people, one of the most famous atheists of the 20th century. But he said, I've always felt mathematics is the ground for our belief in the eternal. And he meant it in a kind of debunking way that that's all this religious stuff is about. I take it the other way. I think that's right. I think mathematics introduces you to a higher world, indeed a world that can't be seen. It's not a world that is open to sense perception. When you sense the meaning of the number 7, or 7 + 5 equals 12, or the quadratic formula, or even the high, you're not in this world of ordinary sense experience. You moved into a higher world that is indeed eternal. These are truths that obtain in any possible world. They obtain across space and time. They obtain even in abstraction from the material world. Well, you have, as Plato knew long ago, you have stepped out of one world into another. I think when you teach mathematics in a Catholic setting, to help students become aware of that, when we say, for example, in the creed that we believe one God, creator of all things, visible and invisible, we'll start with that. What are numbers? What are these mathematical relations? Well, those are invisibilities. Right. And they're created. They're not God, they're not divine, but they're created invisibilities. But we affirm that every time we recite the creed. Now you go further. We talk about angels and so on and so forth, and the soul. But start with elementary mathematics introduces you into a higher spiritual world.
- [09:29]
A
That's right. It gives us the concept, the truth, that something can be real and immaterial at the same time.
- [09:34]
B
Yes. And it thereby refutes materialism as an ideology.
- [09:38]
A
That's beautiful. How about science? How do we approach science?
- [09:42]
B
As Catholics Here I take what is seen as the great enemy of religion and turn it back as the great advocate of religion. Because all science rests upon the idea that the material world as we know it is radically intelligible. It's imbued with an intelligibility that corresponds to an inquiring mind. So you're a psychologist, or you're a biologist, or you're a physicist, or you're an astronomer. Whatever you are in the scientific realm, you're looking for something like intelligible pattern. Otherwise science won't get off the ground. If the world is just chaotic nonsense or it's just one random thing after another, we couldn't have science, we couldn't have predictability. You couldn't draw conclusions. You couldn't confidently predict what might happen. Science rests upon the assumption that the world is radically intelligible. That's a religious idea. Again, we say God has created all things. That means all things are imbued with some kind of intelligibility which has come from a more primordial intelligence. That's why I would turn that thing the other way and say no. Science affirms the reality of God, doesn't deny it.
- [10:54]
A
So we can see that from sort of an a priori sense. It's sort of the condition for the possibility of science is God and intelligibility in the world. How about using science to look sort of after the fact, like using it to look at the Shroud of Turin or evidence of archeological evidence for the resurrection, things like that?
- [11:12]
B
Sure, and I hope a kid in a Catholic school has that keen sense that nothing in authentic science could ever be opposed to religion because they both come from the same source, namely from God, who is truth. See, it's so important, Matt. When Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life, He. He's not just saying, I'm a person saying true things. I mean, any prophet could say that I am the truth. See, he's the logos made flesh. We say, therefore all logic, all logo, and the sciences all deal with logoi intelligibility. They're all related to him. He's the center of the sciences. He's the alpha and the omega of the sciences. And therefore we should go out with a panache and confidence to meet the world. Religious people are never cowering. Oh, what's science going to discover that might undermine? If you're thinking that you don't have a right understanding of either science or religion. Right. Religion should give you a bold confidence in going out to meet the world.
- [12:09]
A
How about the humanities, especially literature and history?
- [12:13]
B
Same thing. Go back to John Henry Newman. He, back in the 19th century, encouraged seminarians to read novels because novels tell you all about human psychology. I mean, long before Freud, novelists understood the dynamics of the mind and I would say the dynamics of desire. And see, religion corresponds to the deepest desire of the heart. So we all have desires for different things, Right? We seek various ends, but through all those and above all those as a kind of trajectory and lure. To all of those, there's the great desire for God, for ultimate truth and ultimate goodness and ultimate happiness. Almost all novels and great works of art are about that. Think of Faulkner's line about, you know, great literature is born of the human heart in conflict with itself. That's always struck me as a deeply religious kind of idea. Because what happens to our fallen hearts is they're seeking God in all the wrong places. We're at war with ourselves. But that war should lead you to, finally now, the surrender to God and the beautiful. Just as true propositions and true things in the world point to the truth ultimately of God, so all beautiful things speak finally of the source of all beauty. So the humanities, of course, should lead you to a consideration of God. I just think, Matt, in a Catholic school, not that every single moment you're. You're making the kids explicitly aware of God, but that in the background of your teaching of science or math or literature, there's this evangelical sensibility that should just be in the kind of. In the air you breathe in those classrooms.
- [13:55]
A
How do we handle the potential objection that Catholic schools should be hyper vigilant, especially for younger students, of creating a very pious, very sheltered environment that we would want to expose them to. To dangerous ideas? And here I have in mind, particularly like Flannery o'. Connor. You know, when you read some Flannery o', Connor, you encounter some very dark characters. How do we navigate that tension between trying to shelter them from the harm of the world, but also exposing them to the reality of sin?
- [14:20]
B
Yeah, my instinct is to say, almost on the contrary, I think a Catholic sensibility makes you confidently open to the world in all of its dimensions. So Flannery's a good example. I mean, she's so confident in her faith that she can confront the deep fallenness of the world. She can deal with deeply dark characters who are at war with themselves and all that precisely because she's so confident in her faith and she knows the truths of the faith so well. I think all the great Christian artists are like that, whether it's the plastic artists like Michelangelo or it's the literary artist. They know the human condition and they know it from the Bible, they know it from the great tradition. And that gives them a confidence to face it realistically. We want to shelter kids in a way from sin. Obviously we don't want them to become sinners, but we don't shelter them from the realities of the world. I think we go out again with A confidence to meet it.
- [15:17]
A
Be not afraid.
- [15:18]
B
Yeah.
- [15:19]
A
And finally, religion. What's the right way to teach religion? Or more specifically Catholic theology in a Catholic school.
- [15:24]
B
Right. I'll state it negatively. First, don't treat it as one subject among many. Just as I've argued for years, God is not properly seen as one being among many. God's this big being. No, God is the sheer act of to be itself through which all things come. To be the creator of all things, therefore beyond the world, but implicated in every dimension of the world. Well, analogously, that's how religion should relate to the other disciplines. Not in competition with them. Like let's get rid of history. Just put religion there. Just get rid of literature, get rid of science. No, no, but allow religion to pervade all of those disciplines. Let it be the ethos which determines the whole of our education. So yes, it's taught in a way as a separate subject. You might. Now I'm going to religion class, but my hope would be the religion teachers get. No, no. This is meant to pervade every aspect of your life. The minute you say religion is one part of my life, you've missed it. You don't understand what religion really is. It's every part of your life non competitively. Right. Just as God is in and through all things non competitively. A scientist can and should follow the rigorous method of the sciences, knowing all the time that everything he or she does is predicated upon God and leads to God. That's the right attitude and I would hope in a Catholic school they get that deeply.
- [16:55]
A
You've already answered this indirectly. But to ask you directly, what's the unifying principle among all of these disciplines to create one cohesive Catholic education?
- [17:04]
B
Christ has Logos. I would say if the purpose is evangelization, right. That's declaring the lordship of Jesus. Who's Jesus? If he's one teacher among many, then who cares? Have teach about him and in philosophy class. But if he's the Logos made flesh, then he must pervade all of the logical enterprises of a school. He must pervade the whole of its life. So I would say it's Jesus. Go back to the Middle Ages. You know, we both love Saint Bonaventure and Christ the center of the sciences. That's a medieval idea, right? So he was thinking about the medieval university, when the university was being formed for the first time in the west. And he said Christ should be the center of all the disciplines. That's the idea I'm defending here. It's as Old as Bonaventure. It was affirmed by Newman in the 19th century. I think we lost the narrative, in a way, in the 20th century, and there's a lot of reasons for that, but that's the narrative I want to recover.
- [17:56]
A
Well, let's look at that, how we've lost the narrative and potentially how we can recover it. So let's examine sort of the state of much Catholic education, not all Catholic education, but some of it, to set up sort of the next series of questions. It's important to note that there's two basic categories for describing how Catholic education can fail to miss the mark. One is by omission, that is by failing to live up to their full spiritual, moral, evangelical and academic potential. And the other is by commission, that is by teaching or otherwise practicing values that contradict church teachings. Unfortunately, we can look at some anecdotal examples in both categories. For example, the promotion of abortion or transgender ideology or forms of neo racism and diversity, equity and inclusion programs. But it's also important to note that some Catholic families, a significant number, have felt it necessary to create sort of independent Catholic vetting mechanisms like the Newman Guide, to determine which schools are faithful. And also some have created entirely parallel Catholic school systems like the Chesterton Academy. So some have felt the need to do that. So what is your sense of what's led us to this point where there are a significant amount of schools who are failing to miss the mark?
- [19:04]
B
Yeah. And you're raising up a whole set of issues there, and they're. Each one is kind of complicated, but, yeah, I think, as I say, the narrative got lost in the measure that religion became first one subject among many and then secondly, kind of a marginal concern. I'll tell you a story. Back in my Chicago days, I was invited to a gathering of high school principals of Catholic schools in Chicago to address them. And for some reason I got there really early, I forget why. And I was there for this exercise they had where each. Each principal got up and they were asked, say something really great happening at your school. And so I listened and they came up. About 20 people came up and it was. Our gym has been improved and it's so great. And, oh, we just got new computer system and it's terrific. And our science program is the best in the city. And they all went through. Not one person ever mentioned religion in any way. And so when I got to the microphone, I said, I appreciate being here and it was good to hear all you and I'm happy all these things are happening in your school. But I said, it did strike me a little bit that none of you mentioned religion as something positive in your school. Now, I was never invited back to address that, but that stays in my mind. And again, I don't want to be casting aspersions on those good people, but that's symptomatic of the problem. Maybe if you don't, as a Catholic school teacher or administrator, think no religion should be like the number one concern that I have and all the others. Yes, indeed. We're not in competition. They're all great. I want computers and I want the best gym and I want, you know, all that stuff. But the primary thing should be what's the religious ethos and nature of the school in the measure that that got lost, something very serious got lost, and then it's easy to slide down that hill, you know, once that's kind of bracketed. Or religion. Oh, yeah, sure, we have religion class or we have crucifixes up in the classroom, and, well, that makes us a Catholic school. No, it's the ethos of the logos. I use those two Greek words. If the ethos of the logos isn't there, then you've lost the narrative that.
- [21:11]
A
Permeates the entire institution.
- [21:13]
B
You've lost the narrative.
- [21:15]
A
As you know, some schools, especially talking about higher education context, the way they've solved the Catholic identity issue is to sort of ghettoize it, right? To create a Catholic studies department or create a director of mission and then to separate the rest of the university from those.
- [21:29]
B
And that's the danger. That's the danger. That is the danger. And again, I love a lot of these Catholic studies programs that have happened around the country. But that's. I suppose, the shadow side of it is that it becomes this one little discipline among many, but not affecting the whole life of the place. You know, I hate it when vowed religious people who founded many of these great universities and colleges have, like, actively marginalized themselves to say, oh, no, our job is to really empower the laity and so on. Look, I'm all in favor of empowering the laity, but no, the religious communities belong in the center of the college or the center of the university. You know, when I was a little kid, I'm dating myself here and getting nostalgic maybe, but I'm a little kid in Catholic grade school outside Detroit, and I had these wonderful nuns in those days, still habited nuns teaching me. Well, even though they're teaching history, they're teaching English or whatever it was, math. It was inescapable. Because there they were, right in front of you, these habited, vowed religious people. And that does something to you. It convinces you that, yeah, this is completely compatible with being a religious person, even though she's not explicitly teaching me religion, but it's a religious person teaching math and an unambiguously religious person. That should still be a reality in our Catholic schools. Again, I'm not saying bring the nuns back in full habits all the time, but that it should be clear to the kids that the person teaching me is a person of faith who sees no contradiction whatsoever between what she's teaching and her faith.
- [23:07]
A
How about a greater integration of the priest that's associated with the parish school into the life of the school?
- [23:13]
B
Is that emphatically important? And I. You know, a lot of guys that I've taught over the years who really have caught the spirit of what we're talking about today are doing just that. I've got a good friend who's a pastor in Phoenix and runs a big school and begins the day every day by gathering the entire student body in this big kind of courtyard and leading them in prayer.
- [23:34]
A
Wow. Every day.
- [23:35]
B
Every day. And I say to my own priests here, and I say to any priest willing to listen, you got a school that should be a very top priority. And your presence means the world to those kids. Not just because, oh, it's nice, you know, the dad is here, the father of the parish, but that you're there precisely as the priest, as the pastor, and that you're in that school, you believe in it. That's hugely important.
- [24:00]
A
Yeah, it's a visual representation of the idea. You're saying that it's all integrated. The priest is not really religion.
- [24:07]
B
That's the right way to put it. Yeah. It's the visual representation of this idea. And, you know, look, I'm with Newman. Sometimes we get ideas from arguments and all that, but often you get them from things like. No, Sister Jean Marie taught me history when I was in third grade, and Sister Myra, when I was in first grade, taught me, you know, how to read. Well, yeah, that makes a big difference. I still remember how many years ago that was. 60 years ago. I still remember Sister Myra teaching me how to read. That makes a difference.
- [24:37]
A
You know, I was. I spent 10 years as an academic in a. In a Catholic university. And oftentimes when the question of Catholic identity would come up and it. It did not come up often, unfortunately, but when it did, the retort was, this is not a seminary. Meaning that that's not an appropriate Question to be asking at a Catholic university, what's your response?
- [24:57]
B
No, that's a dodge. That's ridiculous. I mean, look, a seminary is placed for priests being trained, so of course it's not a seminary in that sense. But that's a dodge and it's a way just to wriggle off the hook. No, no. Everything we've talked about applies, I think, even a fortiori in a university setting, when we can do these things in a highly sophisticated way. No. On Catholic identity, I think of my friend Bill Miscampbell, a priest from Notre Dame, has been fighting this battle for a long time, and he said it can't be a secular university in a Catholic neighborhood. Meaning it's a place that kind of looks Catholic. Got little Catholic accoutrements, little Catholic symbols here and there, but basically it's a secular school. That can't be right. It's got to be a Catholic school all the way down. And again, keep in mind the non competitive relationship of God in the world. In the same way, religion is not competing with the other disciplines. So, oh, I guess you're saying we shouldn't be rigorous in our science. No, I'm not saying that. Or oh, no, we shouldn't do math at the highest level. On the contrary. Right. But if we understand God correctly and faith and church correctly, there's no contradiction.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, those are total non sequiturs that have nothing to do with the issue.
- [26:09]
B
Right, right.
- [26:10]
A
Well, let's look at some specific issues that frequently come up associated with Catholic identity. And these apply primarily to K through 12 schools, but also the higher education. And the first one has to do with gender ideology. So should Catholic schools ever permit their staff or students either to use gender ideology related pronouns or to show support for LGBTQ ideology by displaying pride flags or pins on school grounds? Is that ever acceptable in the Catholic environment?
- [26:35]
B
No. And we have protocols in my diocese, which I've been forced throwing since I got in here, about that. You know, let me say this, Matt, up front. We love everybody. Every human being is a subject of infinite dignity. As Pope Francis said, dignitas infinita. And so that goes to gay people, to trans people, everybody. So it's not a question of trying to be difficult or exclusive and all that. That's not at all what we're talking about. But it's appropriate to use that word, ideology. There's an ideology that is repugnant to our anthropology. You know, God created the male and female and so on. That our moral teaching about when the sexual act is appropriate. No, a Catholic school shouldn't be celebrating an ideology that's repugnant to Catholic teaching. That's just stupid, and that's just counterindicated. So, no, that strikes me as crazy. And so I've stressed that here, the bishops of this country have been pretty clear on that issue, I think, across the board. And again, we just make that distinction. We're not against anybody. We're not full of hate. That's the rhetoric used by those who oppose this. Obviously, now you're a person of hate. No, no, not at all. To love is to will the good of the other. We're convinced that Catholic teaching in regard to anthropology and sexuality is right, and therefore it's good. That's what we're willing for people. And so we can't be ourselves trumpeting an ideology that stands opposed to that. To me, that's just ridiculous.
- [28:00]
A
Another frequent question we get is how frequently should Catholic schools have their students attend Mass during school hours?
- [28:07]
B
Yeah, we have it once a week here in our diocese, which I think is good. I think when I was a kid, I think it was once a week we had Mass in the school. Good. You know, the Mass is the source and summit of the Christian life. So the Mass is the place where everything we've been talking about, it comes to its richest expression. I remember, as a little, tiny kid, Holy Name School outside of Detroit, and we were brought to Mass. In those days, it was the opposite. In those days, the eighth graders, the big kids, sat up in front and. And the little people sat way in the back. And it was a big, long church. And there we were, we were first and second graders sitting way in the back of church. I didn't know what's going on. You know, I don't think. But at some level of my life, it was being communicated, okay, this is important, that whatever's happening here, which I barely understood at that point, is something important. I still remember getting my throat blessed when I was, like, in second grade at one of those Masses. And then that just became a routine in all my years in Catholic education, was going to Mass. So, I mean, whether you fully get it in every detail, bring the kids there. I remember going to. I think it was weekly confession we had, or maybe every. Maybe it was monthly confession. I forget. But being brought out of class into the church for confession. Good. You know, before I forget, recently I heard Jordan Peterson say something that really struck me. He said, you know, people think confession is something kind of neurotic, and it's this Catholic Hang up. And he goes, I don't know. Going before God, the Supreme Good, and confessing your failures and asking for his grace to do better. He said, I can't think of anything that's more psychologically healthy than that. I thought, amen. But see, why do we need someone like Jordan Peterson to tell us that? We should be saying that. But most of my lifetime we've been kind of apologetic about it, and here's what it does and doesn't mean. No, this is born of centuries of experience. As Paul VI said, we're a master of humanity. The Church understands humanity. Anyway, getting off the track there a little bit more.
- [30:16]
A
No, related to that. How do we respond to the critique? And it's directly connected to taking this apologetic attitude that, well, there's a lot of students in Catholic schools who aren't Catholic, and so having them go to Mass or offering confession makes them feel unwelcome or create a non English, then.
- [30:33]
B
Don'T come to Catholic school. And again, I'm not forcing someone to receive communion or I'm not forcing someone to confess the Catholic faith. I'm just saying, look, if you're coming to a Catholic school, you should expect that you're going to do Catholic things. Look, my hope is the purpose of the whole thing is to evangelize. So, sure, my hope would be to draw people to Christ. And that does happen. Seen it happen where kids come to a Catholic school, they're not Catholic, but they become so in the course of their time. Great. That's what we're there for. We're not forcing it, not compelling it. But if you're coming to share our life, it's not just to learn physics and math. You're also coming to be exposed to the Catholic reality and its fullness. So I have no problem with that.
- [31:14]
A
What about the integration of adoration during school hours?
- [31:17]
B
Yeah, you know, I don't. Maybe in some of my schools here, I'm not exactly sure that they have a required adoration time. I don't know that. I suppose it's a matter of prudence, you know, But I don't know in my diocese, really, if we have that in any of our schools required, we might.
- [31:34]
A
Do you think it's advisable?
- [31:36]
B
Sure, I think. Sure, it's probably up to the administrators on the ground to see, you know, what's, you know, prudentially call for. But I wouldn't say we have to require it. But sure, if it's feasible and it's something that corresponds to prudence. You know, why not?
- [31:51]
A
All right, how about this question? This is another frequent question we receive. Is it ever acceptable for a Catholic school to have a non Catholic teaching Catholic theology?
- [32:01]
B
I think it's acceptable, but as an exception and with the right provisos in place, if that person is completely dedicated to Catholic teaching, is deeply knowledgeable, would never speak out against the Catholic teaching in any way. Now, having said that, I think the norm, the fallback, the default position would be, yes, of course a Catholic should be teaching. But I also realize as an administrator of a diocese, sometimes it's hard to find just the right person at the right time to do it. And so could it be accepted as an exceptional thing? Yeah.
- [32:36]
A
Given those provisos, two more specific questions. Do you believe Catholic schools should require their faculties to sign statements of faith that contractually commit them both to teach and live according to authentic Catholic doctrine?
- [32:47]
B
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Again, it doesn't mean everyone has to be a Catholic. But you can't be teaching against Catholic doctrine, and you can't live in a way that's repugnant to our teaching because you're there not just as a instructor, you're there as a model of life. So, no, we require that of our teachers here, and I think most dioceses do.
- [33:05]
A
And finally, what should Catholic school systems do to encourage Catholic families who are homeschooling their children to get them more involved with their local parish schools?
- [33:12]
B
Yeah, that's a good question, because homeschooling has emerged, really, in the course of my lifetime. If you had said when I was a little kid, someone is being homeschooled, we would think something's the matter or they're Amish or it was such an unusual thing. And I must say this, when I was at the synod and in Rome, so I'm with some of the top leaders of the church, and it came up at our table one time, the whole issue of homeschooling, and I'm not kidding, there are a lot of people around that table, Cardinals and from all over the world, and they're. What do you mean when you say homeschooling? And then I and others would say, well, this and that. I've never thought of that or never heard of that. So it's a somewhat recent phenomenon, and it maybe is. It's more prominent in our country. My thing would be, you know, I know a lot of parents who homeschool. I get it. I get why they've lost confidence in some cases with the Catholic school. But I'd like to see as much Dialogue and connection as possible. The shadow side, I suppose, would be a kind of sectarianism or a withdrawal from, you know, the wider Catholic life. So I would love to see more dialogue between the schools and in the homeschool community, maybe each one influencing the other to some degree. I'm not against homeschooling. I think parents have a right and they can do it. But maybe what you're suggesting is a way to avoid a sort of dangerous sectarianism is to encourage as much conversation, maybe sports or other forms of interaction and so on.
- [34:45]
A
This is a final question before moving to our listener question. There's sort of a meta debate going on in the Catholic identity arena that says, well, look, how do we know when we should work to reform or improve a school that could be reformed or improved? And how do we know when we should just sort of scrap it and build a new one? Can you offer some general principles for how to answer that existential question for Catholic education?
- [35:11]
B
It's hard because it's a prudence question. It's gotta be very close to the ground. Are there some know, even Catholic schools that have kind of lost the thread of the narrative? Yeah, probably. If a Catholic school is indeed advocating for things that are repugnant to Catholic life and teaching, yeah, that's a sign of a deep rot has set in. And if that's just deep in the structure of a school, then maybe it's time to start something new. I would always urge people, it's like, you know, the subsidiarity principle is start with the principle, get into dialogue, raise objections, raise concerns. I'd be reluctant to see people kind of bolting away from institutions that have maybe have gone off the rail to some degree. But can we find ways of encouraging a lot of conversation and reform from within? But if it reaches a point where, in a systematic way, schools are advocating things opposed to Catholic teaching, that's a sign that I think if I were a parent, I wouldn't want my students, my kids, going there.
- [36:19]
A
Let's now turn to our listener question. Today we have Bill from Doncaster in England asking how it's possible to love God, if God is, by definition, love itself.
- [36:30]
B
My name is Bill. I'm Doncaster in England. And my question is, if love is to will the good of the other as other, how can I love God? Who is love anyway? Yeah, that's actually a good searching question. The answer hinges upon a distinction. So you can love the good of the other in the sense that the other doesn't have a good, that he or she should have. And you're now willing that and acting right to achieve it. When you love God, God doesn't need anything. God has no lack of. What are you loving? You're loving the good that God is. Your will is resting in the good that God is. So you're loving God for his own sake. You're not loving so that some good might accrue to God through your will in action, but rather you're resting in the good that God is. Thomas Aquinas talks about seeking the absent good and resting in the present good. Well, see, for most of us, I'm seeking the absent good. There's some good that you have need. I'm willing it and I'm going to try to achieve it for you. Right? That's the way we love each other. But we love God not in that sense, but that we rest in the good that he is. We become conformed to the love that he is. That's a good question.
- [37:46]
A
Does the categories of praise and worship overlap with that second understanding of love?
- [37:52]
B
Because God has no need of our praise, right? God has no need of our worship. We don't add anything to God by worshiping, but rather when we worship God, it redounds to our benefit, which is why God wants it. God wants to be worshiped not like a pasha or some pagan deity, but he wants to be worshiped because it accrues to our benefit.
- [38:10]
A
Well, thank you so much, Bill, for reaching out to us. If you would like to ask Bishop Barron a question for a future Word on Fire show, please visit askbishopbarron.com that's askbishopbarron.com we always love to hear from you. Well, thank you, Bishop. You provided a lot of great material for our Catholic schools. All right, so looking forward to the next conversation.
- [38:28]
B
Okay, me too.
- [38:30]
A
That does it for us today. Thanks for joining us on the Word on Fire Show. If you're interested in learning more about how Word on Fire can help you grow closer to Christ, become a better evangelist with and for others, and work for the common good, consider joining the Word on Fire Institute. Check us out at institute.WordPress.org that's institute.WordPress.org we'll see you next time.