A (2:46)

Yeah. And it can go back to why we got into a job in the first place. Sometimes we pick a major in college, which we don't know why we picked that major, and then we get out of school, we apply for jobs that are associated with that major, or we fall into a job, or we were desperate when we took a job, we try to make it work. Rarely do people choose their work based on a full understanding of what gives them joy and energy. And even if you do and you get laid off, we often think, oh, I'm limited to this function, this job role, or this industry. A lot of people that are going to be getting laid off are working in high tech. A lot of computer programmers, I think we mentioned once on a podcast recently that the University of Washington has eliminated, I think, their computer science major because they think that AI is just going to replace most of the work that's done in computer programming. And this is crazy. And there's a lot of kids in school or just graduated or people in new jobs doing programming wondering, is this job going to be here next year, next month, in a few years? And so right away, they start to think, well, how am I going to find another job doing this thing, being a programmer, and what am I going to do? What's the world of tech going to look like? Well, when you know you're working genius, you don't think about it that way. You think this working genius is applicable in many different jobs in many different industries, and you can take a breath, step back, and say, what is the. The wider variety of things I could do using this genius that I would be just as happy in, and probably in an industry that has a better future.

B (4:18)

Yeah, it's interesting, Pat, because again, I want to reemphasize we'll do this many times throughout the podcast. We're not diminishing the fear and anxiety and like all of the things that come with being laid off. But in that example, I think about our own tech team, right where if you were to think pretty one dimensionally about your job and think, well, I've had four years of experience as a developer in this industry, I need to go look for that as my next option. And, and quite frankly, we've talked so often about this on this podcast about how job descriptions become less relevant to us when you understand working genius. Yep. Now in the market there's all these jobs, you know, descriptions that are out there on, on job boards that are saying like, we need this amount of experience here and this amount of experience in this industry. But there's a way of reframing it and thinking like I think about our tech team. There's a, there's a, there's a guy who manages our tech team who, who isn't necessarily the coding experience. You can tell he's able to galvanize the team and keep the team on track. And when you can change the language and not just think like, well, I, I'm a developer, he's. And change the language and say like, I'm actually really good at identifying the right priorities and equipping people to go pursue those priorities. That's a totally different thing. And it doesn't, it doesn't mean it kind of frees you up from saying, oh, I have seven years experience in this industry to being able to describe the work that you could do that is across any industry because those working genius would translate outside of tech into any job that required that sort of work.

A (5:51)

Yeah. And remember we, we tell this story from almost five years ago when working genius first came out about this team I worked with that had no W or I on the team and it was a high tech company and they had one guy on the team that had the only, I was a lawyer. Now this is a guy that spent three years in law school, probably thought about going to law school before that had spent his career. He, I bet given his age, he'd probably worked in law for seven to 10 years and he was the general counsel. So he was like, well, I'm never going to have a job outside of law. Well, as it turned out, he had invention, which most legal jobs don't have. A lot of invention involved. The company needed somebody to really help them figure out the future of their technology. They actually moved him into a role to take over technology and he left the law practice completely because that, and so it's not even getting laid off. Sometimes we can just go, man, I don't know if I'm fulfilled in what I'm doing. So people that might Think they're going to get laid off or might think, I don't really like what I'm doing. Look at your working genius and think, what other fields and what other jobs could I do that would be even better? And the people listening to this who know working genius, the greatest gift you can give somebody that's just gotten laid off or who's not happy in their job is to help them understand how they can go find more joy and energy in a different role, maybe even in a different industry. So that's. That's what we want to do. We want to equip as many organizations as we can to help their people when they do get laid off, or help their friends when they need a better job.

B (7:23)

Yeah. And that's kind of why we use the word silver lining, Pat, because, you know, obviously there's some urgency to how do I, you know, make ends meet and how do I pay the bills and all that stuff? But there's. There is a silver lining in as much as the majority of people. This actually would be kind of interesting for me to ask, like, if now that we understand working genius, what percentage of the working world do you think is in a job that leverages their genius that they're fulfilled and.

A (7:51)

Oh, let's play the game we usually play.

B (7:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (7:53)

What percentage?

B (7:54)

Okay. Okay. I'm trying to think. Like, there's some industries out there that's hard to identify, but I'm gonna. Okay, I'm in.

A (8:01)

I think it's under 20%.

B (8:03)

Okay. I said 40, but. And I was thinking of leveraging one of their geniuses, you know?

A (8:08)

Oh, oh, okay. Leveraging it. In some ways, I was thinking, like, where they feel like, y. I'm fully utilized in my genius.

B (8:15)

Yeah.

A (8:16)

The point is, certainly more than half the people in the world, so many of them don't know what their geniuses are, so they don't understand why they might not be satisfied. But there's far more people in the world that need to find a role either in the organization they're in now, on the team they're in now, or in a different organization if they want to be fully leveraged in their work. And so sometimes getting laid off, you know, Laura, my wife, years ago, she was a recruiter for a retail company, and she got the chickenpox. She was 27 years old at the time, and she got the chickenpox. And when you get chickenpox at that age, it's actually quite serious. It's not like when you're little kids, you Know, we used to just all watch cartoons and pick our scabs for two weeks and go back to school. And so that sounds gross, right? That's what we did. Okay. But Laura was out for a month and they laid her off. And she was pretty pissed off, to be quite honest. It was probably illegal to do that. Well, we didn't want to sue, blah, blah, blah. But she said she looked back, and actually because of that, she'd started being a contract recruiter and started her own business and did training and development, which she really liked. And she will tell you, had I not got laid off, I would not have left that job. And it was leaving that job that allowed her to find something that actually suited her skills more. And so sometimes to break the handcuffs we have in staying in the work we're in, that layoff might be what does that. But if we don't find a way to understand and move toward our geniuses, then we might just find ourselves in yet another job where we're trapped.

B (9:48)

Yeah. It's funny, Pat, on many occasions in the last 12 ish years, 11 ish years that we've worked together, you're an inventor. Discerner. So one of your favorite things is giving people advice. Like you said, in another life, your ideal job would be like a career coach. A speed career coach.

A (10:04)

Absolutely.

B (10:05)

So, like 30 minutes come in. Here's my problem. So I kind of have an idea of where, where you might go with this. But let's say I got laid off and I came to you and I said, pat, I just need to. I need to reinvent.

A (10:15)

First of all, I would be the person who laid you off so that it would be a difficult conversation.

B (10:20)

Let's get Matt on here. No, I'm just kidding. In a hypothetical world where we don't. We just know each other. I got laid off. And I come to you and I say, hey, I got laid off. I need to know what to do next.

A (10:29)

Oh, I love this.

B (10:31)

And so we already have this sort of working genius part of the equation, but what advice would you give somebody that just says, hey, I just need. I need 30 minutes of your time to help me figure out what's next.

A (10:41)

Right. And I know, you know what's funny? I would, I would look at your working frustrations first.

B (10:45)

Yeah.

A (10:46)

And I would say, first of all, don't take a job where you are going to be asked for to do something very specific that you're not necessarily interested in, and then you have to go do it perfectly. In other words, don't do a job where other people completely define what, what's required of you and the standards are pretty close to perfection. And there are jobs like that and there's some people who love jobs. I have friends.

B (11:09)

You're saying that to me because specifically my frustrations are enablement and tenacity and tenacity and they're.

A (11:15)

And I have friends that are enablement and tenacity. And I would say to them if they, if I look, if they said WI for instance was their working frustrate, I would say don'. Go into a job where it's ill defined, where there's no expectations, where you have to figure it out on your own and you never know if you're doing a good job, you know?

B (11:31)

Yep.

A (11:31)

So for you I would say so don't, don't do a job that's so defined and so specific about what the results are. Also don't get a job where you're not actually influencing others in the organization because your job, you're in the full on activation stage as a dg. So find a job where you actually are required to help others and redirect others. So you should be in a job where management is part of your role but it's actually in strategic where you have a strategic. Because the discerner is like figuring out what the right thing to do is. Don't go into a job that's fully creative. That's like just a creative thing. And I would say you really should look for a job where there's management responsibility and strategy involved in that. And there's so many out there that do that. And frankly, Cody, I know what your personal interests are. I'd say so try to find one that suits your idealistic interests. But you're going to have an easy time finding a job that taps into your skills. Just know what those are. And when you go to interview, if somebody presents you a job that's not good for you, say oh, that wouldn't be a good fit. But if you have anything in this area and you are not going to have a hard time landing a job. So many people struggle in the job search because they don't know who they are and they don't know what's going to feed them and they're afraid to admit that in an interview. So when you, if you get laid off and you go into an interview, be the first person to say, oh no, this would not be a good job for me. And I know that's easy to say and it seems hard when somebody's struggling. Now, granted, if you have financial issues in the near term, sometimes you got to take a job in the short term that's just going to put money in your pocket and food on your plate. But. But never think that that's a long term solution. So that's the advice I'd give you.

B (13:19)

Yeah, it's interesting. The only part that I expected you to do that you didn't do, which is kind of the reverse of the way we think about hiring. So I love that you said, like, hey, it's worth taking stock of what excites you. What passions do you have, what personal interests? If you can find one that aligns, that's great. The second piece we always talk about cultural values is sort of the primary layer that you should be looking for when we're hiring too, even beyond working genius. And so even if I thought you might say, hey, think about the values that you have as a human being and ours are humble, hungry, smart. Right. And be able to articulate those and say, I want to work at a company where, generally speaking, the culture is aligned around these things. Now, I'm not trying to make the pool of job opportunities smaller. If you find a job that suits your working genius but doesn't necessarily fit culturally, you might be just as dissatisfied as you were in a, in a previous role. And so it's like if you can, this is the home run, right? As purpose, alignment, value alignment, working genius alignment. That's, that's an ideal job.

A (14:27)

Absolutely. And I was thinking about applying this more to just working genius. That's why I said that. But certainly you want to actually be aware of the other things as well. But you know something, you just reminded me of a lot of the problem people have is they think, well, but this is how much money I made before for. And I need to make at least that much money. And, and I just think about what's going on in the world today. So many people are moving to different cities and different parts of the country. I know I've done it in the last nine months. I was saying this to Laura yesterday. This is a, be a non sequitur. But I think it's interesting. I wish there was a charity in the world where people could go and apply for a zero interest loan just to make a transition. Because I like, I, I lived in the Bay Area and I knew some people that, that needed an improvement in their life and they were doing a job they didn't like and if they only got. I told this woman once, you know, if you moved to Boise, you could afford a nicer apartment. She was a single woman who was sharing an apartment with a stranger and she could barely make ends meet because to live in a not very nice neighborhood in a town in the Bay Area was really not a good situation for her. And I said, if she just picked, go to Omaha, go to Boise, go to someplace else, and you're going to have to make less money. You're going to be happier if you find the right job and you're not going to be trapped. But a lot of people just don't have the money for the transition. It's like, but I'm going to miss a paycheck or two in the process. And what about shipping my stuff there? And I wish there was a charity that said to people, we will give you a no interest loan to just make the transition and your life is going to be so much better. Well, if, even if you get laid off and people will say, well, I made this much money and I need that to, for my family to live well, I think we don't actually ask ourselves, is there another place I could live or is there a way I could change my life where I didn't have to make as much money? Because if you found that job that actually fed you and gave you joy and energy, you're going to be a better husband, wife, parent, friend, you're going to be a happier person. But we tend to think we can't change anything else, our geography or how we live our lives. And man, a happy school teacher in Boise can live. A schoolteacher in Walnut Creek, California, struggles. Sometimes it's okay to go. If I'm meant to be a schoolteacher and I know my working genius, I'm going to make some other changes in my life that are going to make everything better anyway. I guess the silver lining of a layoff can sometimes be that you'll question things about where you live and how much money you actually need to live. And on the other end you come out feeling happier anyway. That's, that's just a non sequitur. I was talking to Laura about it yesterday. Like, man, sometimes people just need a boost to move to a new place and a new life situation.

B (17:10)

I actually like that idea. I mean, another way to phrase it would be to say, how much would you pay to come home from work fulfilled? You know, like, right. Like, you know, if you're thinking about the economics of it and the impact it has on the rest of your life. And I think that's a great question. To ask yourself, like, if I could make less money, but really leverage my. And the secret about this whole thing is when you're working in your working genius, you tend to succeed. So it's almost like.

A (17:34)

And then you make more money.

B (17:35)

Yeah, long term, it's probably going to be up and to the right, but there is a lot of fear about saying, like, oh, what would that look like for me to make that change? And so to the extent that a layoff can be a forcing event for you to reinvent what that looks like, and with the target on the wall being fulfillment, joy, energy, you know, those sort of things. What a. What a gift.

A (17:56)

You know, it's so funny I thought about this, because sometimes to take two, three steps forward, you have to take a step or two back. You know, in fact, that's often the case, like that we want our lives to be on the curve of moving up and to the right all the time. And sometimes that little dip is what we need to accelerate and go up. And so what we're saying here is that whether you get laid off or you leave a job, you might make less money or have to step back a little bit, but when you find that thing where you have the joy and energy, new possibilities come. And I've seen that happen in so many people's lives. And I think now that I live in a less expensive place and you live in a less expensive place, there's so many things that you can do in these areas that are so fun. But we both. I lived in the Bay Area and in California for 59 years, and you're really limited in the jobs you can take and the work you can do sometimes because you have to have. Make so much money just to get by. And so, yeah, so this is just like, never ignore your working genius and maybe question other things in your life so you can put yourself in a position to grow. I feel like this is just confusing, but, man, I just wish people would. I just think when everybody's working in areas where they're leveraging their geniuses, everything else in life gets better. So I know I've repeated myself a few times, but if you're getting laid off, do working genius. If you know somebody that is, please get them a working genius assessment and. And help them think through that. And. And maybe if you're a per. If there's a person that's thinking that, man, this job doesn't feel very stable right now. Start that process now. Get ahead of the curve.

B (19:31)

I like it.

A (19:32)

That's it. That's it. All right. Layoffs can be a silver lining in your life, but working genius and other things are a big part of that. All right, it's about 20 minutes. That's enough.

B (19:43)

Wrap it up.

A (19:44)

Love talking to people about working genius. Love all of the people are listening. So many of our people that have been certified, we meet them out there. I go to give talks, and people come up. I'm certified, and I'm using it to change my life. We love to hear that you're the heroes out there helping other people. So we appreciate you. We love talking to you on this podcast, and we'll look forward to talking to you next time on the Working Genius podcast. God bless.