Podcast Summary: The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni

Episode 103: Working Genius vs. the Ideal Team Player
Release Date: December 30, 2025
Hosts: Patrick Lencioni ("Pat") and Cody Thompson

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson tackle a common question they hear from teams and leaders: Is there a connection between a person’s Working Genius (WG) and the virtues of the Ideal Team Player (ITP) model—humble, hungry, and smart? The duo explores misconceptions, potential overlaps, and the crucial distinctions between these frameworks. They encourage listeners to avoid conflating “working genius” gifts (which influence the type of work that energizes someone) with the foundational qualities needed to be a great teammate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Both Models

• Ideal Team Player (ITP):

  • Essential virtues: Humble (team above self), Hungry (work ethic/drive), Smart (emotional intelligence in interactions).
  • “Don’t hire anyone who’s egregiously lacking in one of these three areas.” (Pat, 00:00 & 04:10)
  • These virtues are non-negotiables for team culture.

• Working Genius (WG):

  • Focuses on six types of natural gifts at work.
  • Helps place people in the most satisfying roles.
  • Should only be considered after team fit is established.

2. Are WG and ITP Indicators of Each Other?

• The central question: Can you use someone’s Working Genius as a predictor for their ITP virtues?
  • At first glance, there seem to be patterns (e.g., Tenacity = Hungry, Enablement = Humble, Discernment = Smart).
  • However, upon reflection and discussion, Pat and Cody make it clear: there is no reliable causation or even consistent correlation.
  • “I feel stronger than ever...you cannot get any assurance from a person's working genius that as a result of that they are humble, hungry or smart. They are completely different.” (Pat, 06:33)

3. Tempting (But Misleading) Associations

• Discernment (WG) = Smart (ITP):
  • Not all with discernment exercise emotional intelligence.
    • “That’s a dumb idea. Let me tell you why.” (Pat, as an example of poor EQ with discernment, 09:17)
  • “The actual act of exercising the genius of discernment, even if objectively the opinion is right, the way that they convey that opinion is actually the secret sauce of emotional intelligence. And they may not have it.” (Cody, 08:23)
• Enablement (WG) = Humble (ITP):
  • The drive to serve and support isn't always rooted in humility; it might be self-serving, or simply habitual.
    • “We want to attribute their enablement to humility and it’s just not always an accurate thing.” (Pat, 09:51)
    • “Is there an egotistic enabler in the world? The answer is yes.” (Pat, 11:24)
• Tenacity (WG) = Hungry (ITP):
  • Tenacity is the drive to finish, but “hunger” can have other sources (responsibility, loyalty, belief in mission, or simply personality).
    • “Is there a slacker person with tenacity, a tenacious slacker? ... There could be.” (Pat, 11:33)
    • Someone might finish tasks due to innate tenacity, but lack true hunger for the mission.
    • Story of discussing with a “Tenacity” colleague—she did her tasks but had no real passion or drive for the job (Pat, 14:27).

4. Clarifying the Order: Team Virtues First, Then Genius

• You must first ensure team members possess humble, hungry, and smart virtues—“get the right people on the bus first.” (00:00, 16:05)
• Next, place them in roles that align with their natural gifts, i.e., their seat.
• Using Working Genius to make hiring decisions before assessing ITP traits is risky, and can allow cultural misfits onto the team.
  • “Don’t be tempted to think: oh, they have tenacity, they’re going to be hungry. Oh, they have enablement, they’re going to be humble. Oh, they have discernment, they’re going to be smart. It’s not true. And you could get yourself into trouble by assuming that.” (Pat, 16:49)

5. Why This Distinction Matters

• Proper sequencing leads to healthier, higher-performing teams.
  • “If you find people with those intrinsic virtues or values, it is going to allow them to slide into a team where, regardless of their working genius, they can...leverage those gifts better.” (Cody, 15:13)
• The “Five Dysfunctions” (Lencioni’s third big teamwork model) becomes far easier to implement when you have the right people, in the right seats.
  • “When you have people that are humble, hungry, smart, and you actually have them in the right kind of role, oh, five dysfunctions are so much easier.” (Pat, 17:38)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• 00:00 – Pat (on hiring and team foundations):
  “The first step in building a team is to get the right people on the bus...humble, hungry, and smart. The second step is to get them in the right seats, and that’s the working genius.”
• 03:46 – Cody (on emotional intelligence and smart):
  “Every type of working genius, every pairing, can have very high emotional intelligence, and every type can have very low emotional intelligence. And there’s no way to use the working genius tool to predict whether a person is smart and belongs on the bus.”
• 08:23 – Cody (on discernment and smart):
  “Here’s how that comes across with someone who’s not emotionally intelligent...no understanding of how this might impact you...‘that’s a dumb idea.’”
• 09:51 – Pat (on humility and enablement):
  "We want to attribute their enablement to humility and it’s just not always an accurate thing...this is just the way they’re wired."
• 11:24 – Pat (on humility):
  "Is there an egotistic enabler in the world? The answer is yes. Is there a butt-headed discerner in the world? Absolutely."
• 14:27 – Pat (story about tenacity):
  “I found someone in the office that I know has [Tenacity] as a working genius...she said, no, I think that I wasn’t [hungry], I didn’t care. I didn’t have a connection to the people, the mission didn’t fit me at all.”
• 16:05 – Pat (on hiring sequence):
  “Before you start applying working genius, make sure they’re a cultural fit. If that culture is based on teamwork, make sure they have humble, hungry and smarts. It’s the first step.”
• 17:38 – Pat (on why order matters):
  “When you have people that are humble, hungry, smart, and you actually have them in the right kind of role, oh, the five dysfunctions are so much easier.”

Notable Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–01:21: Introduction of main question; distinction between ITP and WG.
• 03:46–04:56: Summarizing ITP virtues and why they come first.
• 07:02–09:17: Examining possible associations between WG types and ITP virtues.
• 11:24–13:09: Humility, enablement, tenacity, and the flaws in assumed overlap.
• 14:27–15:00: Real-world example: Tenacity without hunger or passion.
• 16:05–16:49: Cautionary advice on hiring and sequencing models.
• 17:38–18:04: Impact on Five Dysfunctions model and team performance.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Never substitute WG for ITP: Natural genius doesn’t guarantee team virtues; prioritize character and team fit over talent.
• Sequence matters: Hire for humble, hungry, smart; then place people by their working genius.
• Don’t shortcut with assumptions: Real people are nuanced—don’t let tempting patterns lead to false predictions.
• Models work together: Each of Lencioni’s frameworks supports the others when used in proper order.

“We love when people ask questions...there's always nuances that come up in other things.” – Pat (05:38)

For those building or leading teams, this episode is a clarion call: get the right people first, then seat them well—don’t confuse gifts with virtues.