← The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni
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- [00:00]
A
I grew up. I was a busboy and a bank teller, which were both customer service roles. I didn't like them, but I needed to please everybody around me. Sometimes when you have the wound of being a pleaser, you can find yourself being pretty good at customer service, but it's not really satisfying you. And that's a dangerous thing because then you're actually, for the wrong reasons, giving off signals to people that you like doing this, and so they ask you to do it more. Then you find yourself later in life going, why do people keep asking me to do something I don't like? And it's because. Cause I'm forcing myself to be good at it. Welcome to the Working Genius podcast, where we discuss anything and everything having to do with the six types of working genius and how it impacts your work and your life. I'm your host, Pat Liancione, joined by my co host, Cody Thompson. And, Cody, what are we going to talk about today?
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B
Enablement and customer service.
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A
Yes. We get a lot of questions like, are there certain geniuses that. That go with certain kinds of jobs? I mean, it's a question people ask all the time in certification. And when you talk about working genius, and we like to say, well, not necessarily like, you can be a CEO and have any kind of working genius. It depends who you surround yourself with. We try to help people realize that a working genius does not mean you should be in this industry or even this function. However, it seems to us like having enablement as one of your geniuses is probably a good idea if you're going to love doing customer service because you're responding to the needs of customers.
- [01:26]
B
Customers.
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A
So we were like, yeah, that's true. But then we thought about it. We thought, well, in working genius, it's the pairing that really matters, because an ET and an EW are very different things. And so we thought about it, and we realized there's so many different kinds of customer service, and each one probably goes with a second letter. And that's what we want to talk about today is like, in an ideal world, what would be the perfect combination for different types of customer service?
- [01:53]
B
Yeah, I think that there's a little bit of an edge of the brownie nuance to the conversation because we're, you know, we're 100 plus episodes deep into working genius. We're like, okay, this would be fun to kind of pick apart. But on the most basic level, when we talk about working genius is the thing that gives you joy and energy. And we break down work now. Enablement the whole. The whole process of getting joy from enablement is helping others. So the reason that there's such a tie to customer service is ultimately, I mean, it's hard to find another job that has that built in of a function where it's like people need something from you, you get to respond to their needs, and it actually fills you up. So on the core level of working genius, that's why enablement is tied to that. But like you said, that's pretty straightforward, kind of cookie cutter. What does it look like if there's some nuance to it, where maybe you're in a job and you don't have enablement, or you have enablement and another genius, what does that mean? And so let's explore that and kind of figure out, like, there's a little bit of nuances, Edge of the Brownie stuff around this.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah. And, you know, there's another podcast we're going to do. I think I worked with a finance and accounting firm the other day, and I had. There were 30 people that did working genius, and I think 22 of them had tenacity in their working genius. So. So you're like, yeah, if you're doing accounting, you probably need to be good at finishing and, like, finishing things. There's a few jobs out there that really do require that. And customer service generally does require E. So it's not just customer service. There's a few others as well, which is why you and I would be terrible at accounting. In fact, we know this cause we look at our own family and our own lives. Thankfully, other people do that for us.
- [03:35]
B
But when it comes to questions, we would be terrible at customer service. But in your genius, you hired me to do that. That was my first job at the table. So, yes, we've come a long way.
- [03:46]
A
From that before working genius. And, you know, it's worth saying something we always say, Cody, and that is that none of us get to do the perfect job. And your first job out of school, maybe your second job out of school, maybe in a transition, you're going to do some work that isn't perfect for you, and customer service isn't the worst one. If you don't have E necessarily. But if I told you, Cody, you're going to be in this customer service role and you're going to do this for the rest of your life, that would be very different. Joel, who does some customer service for us now and used to do it full time, he's a wi. Now, granted, he's a young guy and he loved working at the company. He loves having a job. But I like to joke and say his wonder was like this. I wonder how much longer they're going to make me do customer service, because E is not his thing. So having said that, everybody has to do things they don't love sometimes. What would be the ideal customer service job for different pairings with E? Which one do you want to start with?
- [04:47]
B
Well, I mean, there's a couple that, that very naturally fall into this category. And we actually have people in these roles with both of these geniuses, like enablement as maybe a primary genius, and then either tenacity or discernment. Now, here's how that plays out a little differently. Someone with discernment and enablement, the way they're going to try to serve the customer is really figure out their problem. Like, okay, let me. Sometimes you get people that reach out with questions that aren't even sure. They don't even know what question to ask. And so the discerner with enablement might be like, I want to serve you. The way I want to serve you is help interpret what you're asking for. Help you really get clear on your question and then figure out the right solution for you. You know, that's a very straightforward way of how a discerner enabler would help someone who has a question.
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A
Yeah, like Tracy. I like to talk about Tracy, who's a de almost. She wanted to be a nurse almost. And we were talking about, like, she would love, like talking to people coming into the hospital and helping them figure out what they need. Like doing the triage part of that would be really interesting to her because they are. They are bringing the disruptive. And she's like responding, okay, I think this is what you need. What's going on here? And she'd really be using her. Her intuition that way. And then she would want to figure out how to make the process better for more customers patience going forward. An ET though, not that an ET doesn't have any of that ability to do that. We're not. We don't want to say that, but theirs would probably be a little bit more defined. They're like, when people come in, they generally have a sense or there's a. There's some lanes there around what people need. And my job is to most effectively and efficiently give them what they need. And I don't have to spend too much time wondering if what they're asking me for is really what they really need.
- [06:36]
B
We very rarely go super specific, but very common role in Customer service is you get a bunch of emails and someone with enablement and tenacity, at the end of the day, the idea that they'd have even one email that goes unresponded to is probably untenable to them.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, Right. So they, they're like, we're going to clear out the inbox, we're going to make sure all the voice mess, the voicemails get answered. That is the finish line. Part of tenacity, right. Is like, not just do I want to help these people, I'm not going to leave a single of these emails unhelped. Both out of my desire to serve the person, but also out of my desire to make sure that we finish things. A DE without T might be like, hey, I want to find the most interesting ones to serve and if a few spill over into tomorrow, that might be okay. And you know, so there is a little nuance and this is why it's so interesting to, to think about people in different, different people in the same role and think there might even be a way that you, if you're listening to this, you're like, oh boy, I hadn't thought about a way to leverage my other genius and really like get more out of my job and fulfillment of my job. There's plenty of ways to do that. An inventor enablement person would probably be like, well, let's come up with new ways we can serve these people. Like, can we, Is there a better ticketing system? Can we use like some way of inventing there? It's still in service of the person because that draw towards enablement. But they might want to tap into that other genius.
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A
I was thinking too, Cody, like, if I went to an ET and said, hey, halfway through the day, are you having a good day? They would say, yeah, I'm. I have like 30 things I have to get done. I'm on number 18, I'm cranking and I'm helping people, but I'm just like solving problem, problem, problem. And if I asked a de, they might say, yeah, I've only done five. But, but man, I got to. Some of them didn't really know what they wanted and I got to figure it out and solve a problem. There's just a different, at the end of the day, the ET is going to go, I did them all, I'm finished. And the DE might say, I really tapped into my ability to intuit what they really wanted, even if it wasn't what they asked for. And both are valid.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Now an ET is listening to this and going, no, they're not. Both not valid, because that one, the DE is not going to get them all done. And that's. Yes. And that's what makes you a wonderful et. And so, yeah, I love the. The nuance of how they might be going about that. It's a really interesting thing to think about. I remember when Joe, I hired my first et, great guy friend of mine, too, and I said to him, hey, Joe, you design your job description, you tell me what you think it should be, you tell me what success looks like, you can figure it all out. And that's my idea of a perfect job. And he's like, no, I'd like to have standards. I'd like to know what success looks like. I'd like to know what my parameters are. Again, we love that we need all of those different things. And when we put a person in a job, we should probably think about that. And probably I should not have put you in a customer service role. But to be fair, and this is a real compliment to you, you said, pat, I'll clean the bathrooms if you want me to. I just like this place. And I love what you guys do so well.
- [09:39]
B
And I think it speaks to two things. I'll touch on both, which is you talked about the et. Not that we say, hey, you can't do any job with any combination, because you can, but the ets, like what you just described, like, let me give you, the role of customer service person is like, let's make sure we serve everybody. That relates to enablement. Let's make sure our customers are really happy. Those are both enablement things. And let's make sure everything gets answered.
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A
Yes.
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B
And ET Is like, boy, that's a party. You know, like, that's exactly. So the. So the actual makeup. Oftentimes we'll tell people to turn the job description over and really interview the person and really understand what the work requires. There are jobs where it's a little more cut and dry.
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A
Yes.
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B
That's why I think this is like that. When you hired me as a dg, certainly our customers are better served now than they were when I was. Was at the helm. The other thing was, like, I didn't know it at the time, but I often found myself galvanizing people into things that they weren't asking for. Like, you know, they'd call for one reason, and I'd be like, you know what you should do?
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A
You were probably upselling.
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B
Yeah, yeah, you should. You haven't read this book or you haven't explored this tool or, you know, you might need consulting. So we, I still was able to do it, but I did it kind of in my own way, but it wasn't the way that that job is supposed to be done necessarily.
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A
Right, right, right. And Joe does know how to have nuance and figure things out for people and all that, but he wants to get it done. He likes to have parameters. Makes sense. Okay, so that's, that's an interesting one. Let's talk about ie.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Invention and enablement. And when we talk about customer service, we're not talking about somebody with their headphones on, just taking calls. We're talking about interacting with customers and helping them with what they need. So what's, what's the perfect customer role for a person with ie, do you think?
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B
Well, I mean, we're kind of cheating because we have a perfect guy that serves us who is an ie and we'll go back to the label. It's adaptable designer. Right. So the adaptable part is I want to serve you as enablement designer. Part is I'm willing to come up with new ideas for you. So we have a cousin to the Two Table group named Grant, who is our, like, website designer, graphic designer, helps with all sorts of projects. He. He is maybe like, exactly in the perfect role for what we ask of him. He'll come up with all these creative ideas, present them to us, let us discern them, and if we even say, like, we don't love that, we want you to start all over, his enablement kicks in. He's like, great, I'll go back to the drawing board, I'll start all over. There's no pride of ownership of any of that. He wants to serve us, he wants us to be happy. And he wants to tap into his creative invention.
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A
It's crazy how his invention is informed by his enablement. His desire is to invent things that we like.
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B
Right.
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A
And when we say we don't like that, I remember when we first did that, we were like, but he's a designer. And some designers would be like, you're really insulting me. This is. I know what you should be doing. And he was like, that's fine, give me another thing. I'll just try something else in. Or, you know, and he really is a customer oriented designer as opposed to a super creative, prideful. You got to do it my way designer.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And there's certain people that you. That's what you get with them. And, and so an IEE is somebody who really wants to be adaptable to what the customer needs and they're okay with having some of their ideas rejected.
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B
Yeah, I love that, like, re sort of constituting what is customer service, because we are Grant's customer and he serves us. And the way he does it isn't by answering our emails or clearing out the inbox. It's by creating these solutions for our website or our products and then presenting them to us and then saying, like, what? I've been on a call with Grant where I didn't like much of it at all. And I was like, can we. Can you try three other things? And he was like, yeah, that's great. I would love to go try three other things. And what's interesting, I don't have invention. So he's like, well, can you give me some more information about what you'd like? And I was like, nope, I just would love you to go try it again and then I'll take a look at it.
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A
You know, the other thing about Grant is he puts a premium on not having the perfect design, but on getting something that we can use on our timeframe. So when we do that, he's like, oh, no, I can give you something that's pretty darn good tomorrow. He's okay with that. And there are other people, other types that would be like, oh, no, no, see, you're really insulting the craft. I do. It's going to take me two more weeks to come up with something because it's going to have to fulfill every desire I have for design. It's crazy how many, when we meet ies, how consistent they are in having that attitude.
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B
I'm having a hard time not like doing the opposite, which is like, how would a ID do that job? This is enablement focused. But when you're talking about, like that sort of maybe pride of ownership. If an invent. If Grant were an inventor discerner, he would have already vetted the idea and wanted it to be better and perfect. And so he might be more resistant to me feedback around it. That's you. Yeah, yeah, Right. So it is so interesting to kind of look at the same job done by different geniuses and how it serves other people. And now would. Would you be willing to, if you were in Grant's role, to get feedback? Of course. But you would do it sort of against the grain, whereas Grant sees it as like this. It's part of the fulfillment of the job.
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A
Yes. Well, and let's just say I wrote for. I was in a writing customer service job where somebody said, pat, write us a chapter or write us a narrative about our product. And as an idea, I'd go through. And if they said, no, we don't like that, make it more like this. My first reaction be, I need to help them understand why I did it that way and try to convince them that they should go with my idea. Because, see, I discerned that as opposed to, like, yeah, sure, I'll take another stab at that. You know, so, yeah, it's really interesting. And that's why E is such a superpower. Like, it really is a genius. There are people that, like, they get joy and energy out of making you as a customer, happy. And some use invention, some use tenacity, some use discernment. Here's an interesting one. How about a ge? What kind of customer role is best for a ge?
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B
So I keep going back to the labels to wrap my head around it at first. So they're the enthusiastic encourager. Right? They're like, galvanizing means, like, I'm going to constantly give you words of affirmation that you're moving in the right. And that paired with enablement is like, I want what's best for you. I want you to be happy. It was funny. I hadn't.
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A
I have two examples.
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B
Okay, yeah, yeah, go. Go for it.
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A
So one is Karen's daughter worked in a home for the elderly. And her job was social. She was in charge of social activities.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So she would bring people in and just. She wanted the patients and the. And the residents to like it. And she would always encourage them to go and she'd encourage the person they brought in. And she was just so enthusiastic because that's half of what these people want to say. Hey, look who we brought in for you. This is going to be great. Let's sing together. We brought a magician in and. And it was all about making them be happy, but also inspiring them to take advantage of it and to enjoy it. And the people loved her there. When. Someday, when I am living in a place like that, I hope she's in charge because she is just. And she loved doing that. She. Her energy was about helping them do that. Also, I've only gone twice, and I'm going to start again. But like, at the gym, I finally have a trainer who I can go visit with and work out with once or twice a week. And he's like, he's encouraging and he's. And I'm like, you know, I kind of have a problem here. Okay, yeah, let's solve that one. And you can do it and I'm going to remind you and send you emails and I'm going to be glad. I'm going to really reward you for just sticking to your plan.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And that is perfect.
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B
When you started that story, you said I've only gone twice. I thought you were talking to a retirement home. So I thought you were making some. I was like, well, Pat, I mean this is great. I hope you're happy there.
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A
You know, I've only gone to the gym twice because my schedule in the new year, I'm going to start trying to go more often. But there is a unique role for a ge. Now he would be frustrated if he were in a job where people said I know exactly what I want. I don't want you to encourage me, just do what I tell you to do. And he'd be like, but you don't need encouragement, you don't need enthusiasm. No, no, no. In fact it drives me crazy. That would, that would mean he would be like, even in a, even in a customer service role, that guy would be totally frustrated.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah. It's funny, the enthusiasm, enthusiasm part of that I have not met. I'm trying to go through the Rolodex of people I know ges are very joyful. They bring a lot of energy and encouragement. Like I don't know that I've met one that doesn't bring that level of enthusiasm to anything you're doing. You know, my mother in law is a ge. You could tell her I'm going to switch careers and start. There's. She would be the most supportive person in the world for whatever your idea is and constantly reaffirm that you should move in that direction and might not.
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A
Be the right person to go to. If it were like, can you give me some advice? Or go, whatever you do, honey, you, you're going to be great at it. It's like. And there's a place for that now. Then there's the we. We haven't done the we which is the. It's double responsive, really deep thinker, really wants to help people. The interesting thing about we is for their sake, they're easily overlooked. We are easily overlooked. I'm not sure why they, they never seek out attention. They do things for people and then they have all these deep thoughts about why they want to help that person. And so I guess what I would say there is if you have a customer service job that doesn't involve some level of intrinsic reward, you are probably setting yourself up to be forgotten, overlooked and feel unappreciated.
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B
Yeah. The first thing my brain went to around a we is is when you really understand the value of great questions and your people focused. Like, I think a lot of good career, like life coaches, they ask better questions of you for you to self reflect on and like, why is it that you want to do that? And what, what is your, you know, have you discovered what it is that makes you the most happy? Like, it's not just like, you know, a, a GT life coach. It's like, I have the plan and you're going to follow my plan. There's this like, sincere desire to serve the person that's across from you across the table. And this skill set of like, let me make sure we're asking some of the most important questions. It's sort of a Socratic method of life coaching as opposed to like, let me give you the answer and the plan and let's like track to the plan, you know?
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A
Yes. Yeah, that's a really good point. If, if it were somebody was like, can we get on with this?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because they're just thinking, oh, yeah, I'll help you with that. But man, I'm wondering, I don't know if this is a good thing for you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So, yeah, you're right. It should involve a lot of good questions. Now, you and I both are actually pretty good at customer stuff. Part of that is because, like, for me, I grew up, I was a busboy and a bank teller. Those are my two jobs that I had, which were both customer service roles. I can tell you right now, I didn't like them, but I wanted to please everybody around me. So sometimes when you have the wound of being a pleaser, you can find yourself being pretty good at customer service, but it's not really satisfying you. And that's a dangerous thing. Yeah, that's a dangerous thing because then you're actually, for the wrong reasons, giving off signals to people that you like doing this, and so they ask you to do it more. And then you find yourself later in life going, why do people keep asking me to do something I don't like? And it's because I'm forcing myself to be good at it. So it's great to be able to turn the, flip the switch every once in a while and go, okay, I can make myself be an E a little bit here. But if you're not an E, do not try to pretend you are. You are only convincing people to put you in the wrong job.
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B
And that's actually my own story. Like, I. It's not That I came and hoodwinked you guys to get a job in customer service. It was that I came from a customer service role. My whole resume said you'd been in customer service, and you guys needed that position filled. And so that's a trap you can get in. And luckily, we work at a. I work for you guys and our whole ethos around trying to put people even before working genius, let's put people in positions to be successful. And so very quickly, 10 months later, you're like, yeah, you're not as good at this as maybe your resume said. And our customers aren't as happy as maybe we want them to be. Let's find somebody who's more equipped to do that. And that was great.
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A
And to be fair, I think probably what happened was to be fair is we probably said, and to be fair to you, not me, that you have a lot of potential, you can do a lot of different things. So let's use those things. I don't have any recollection of you being bad at it, so maybe I just blocked that out.
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B
Well, I appreciate. Let's go with that memory. I think that's a better. A better thing for me. So.
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A
So what are we saying here? We're saying this, that it is good to have enablement if you're in a role in serving customers. It is. There's different kinds of enabling. And know what that is? Because some people can. I had a guy who was going to get into sales, which can be thought of as a customer. He was a college student. He took the working genius and he got his results right there. And I said, what were they? And he said, we. And this was in front of a whole classroom. And I said, okay, do you have a job lined up? He goes, yes. I said, what is it? He goes, cold call sales, door to door. And I said, I remember thinking, should I say this out loud? Yeah, I gotta be truthful. I don't think you're gonna like that. And he goes, I already don't like it. I haven't started yet. It's gonna be miserable. And I was like, yeah, don't take that job. Don't take that job. And a job like that especially is because the only way you eat is if you get to eat what you kill. And you're not gonna kill anything. So sometimes you can go, I think I can do this. It's a break into this company, and I can do this. But sometimes it's like, no, I'm going to go there and fail so miserably. And I'm going to hate it. And it's only going to leave me poorer and less confident in myself. So sometimes it's good to go, no, do not take that job because it's exactly the wrong job. And you go, well, I think I would like customer service. Well, door to door sales is not the same as like having somebody call you and asking you to solve a problem.
- [24:22]
B
Yeah, I love that. That's sort of like. I think more people could benefit from that pre burnout. Like, I. Thinking about that job burns me out. So doing that job is definitely going to burn you out because it's not in your genius. So more people should think, what does that feel like? And then. And then avoid that altogether.
- [24:39]
A
And, you know, I just thought of cold call sales. It's probably best not to have E. Because you have to convince somebody to do something that they probably don't want.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And even close the deal when they're hesitant. You know, it's like. And some people are like, oh, it's fun to actually close the deal and make my number and move things forward. And that. That might crush somebody with enablement because they're like, I don't know if they really want this. So anyway, enablement, it's a great genius. Use it. Know what, know the different types of it and find the right place for you. Alrighty. That's all we're going to talk about today on the Working Genius podcast. Thanks, Cody. Looking forward to the next one. We'll talk to them in two weeks with our next Working Genius podcast. Until then, God bless.