A (2:14)

Yeah. I remember when we first came up with the idea, and you had just come back from being out with the birth of Gosh. That was your son.

B (2:22)

Yeah, Brooks. Yeah, that was Brooks.

A (2:25)

And so you came back and we presented this to you, and you said, oh, this is going to be bigger than the five dysfunctions of a team. And we kind of believed you. But then we were all kind of like, well, we'll see. Maybe this. Nothing will happen from this. And. And now we. I mean, so I meet a lot of people that don't know anything about the five dysfunctions or about the table group, and they're like, oh, yeah, I do. Working genius. And so it's. It's grown faster than we could have imagined. Thank God for that.

B (2:52)

Yeah. Even a broken clock is right twice. Is that what they. They say?

A (2:56)

That's right. That's right. All righty, so let's talk about. It's all about humility, right?

B (3:03)

Yeah. Tell me what you. You. You came back with this as one of the first topics you wanted to dive into. Tell me. Tell me your reflection on humility and its tie to working genius.

A (3:14)

Yeah, it's. It's interesting because there's one specific application about this, which I'll get to in a little bit, that really reminded me of this. But when I thought about it, I thought about that. That idea that without humility, working genius doesn't really work. And. And. And that requires a definition of humility, because some people, like, what does that really mean? And a lot of time people think humility is like, false modesty or not being confident, and that's not it at all. You know, humility is really just a recognition of what is true. And my favorite definition of humility is God is God. I am not God, Therefore, how can I be anything but humble? You know? And so CS Lewis actually explained this really well, and he said, humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking about yourself less. And so the first point I would want to make around this. And I loved it, to remind people of this and. And that is to be humble means to actually fully accept and celebrate your geniuses, your strengths, what you're good at. And I know there's a lot of people who think, oh, I shouldn't really. I shouldn't really say I'm great at that, or I shouldn't say that I'm gifted in that. That almost sounds. But it's crazy, because when. When we recognize that our strengths are gifts, and I Fully believe they're gifts that God gave us. Working genius is something you're innately given by God. Well, acknowledging that and celebrating that is just acknowledging what is true. Now, it's not bragging unless that's what you're doing, but if you're just saying, yeah, I'm really good at this. And I was thinking about that when I was driving into work this morning. Like, if you were on a project team. My son is in college, and he gets on these work teams, you know, like in business school. And. And when you people should go, hey, I have a genius in this area. Put me on this part of the project. And people are kind of reluctant to do that. And that's not humility. That's actually a violation of humility. It's like, go ahead and say, I'm really good at this. And that doesn't make me important. It just means I have a gift in this area.

B (5:15)

Well, implicit is also, I'm kind of bad at this. That's the vulnerable part of the humility piece, which is an accurate assessment of what your strengths and weaknesses are. And I think that's what's beautiful about, you know, we didn't build it this way, knowing that it would lead to this. This type of, like, vulnerable, humble conversations. But in the. When you get your report and you're like, hey, this is actually. These are the two things, the two pieces of work that I'm actually really good at and gifted and fulfilled by. And then here are two that I really struggle with and are frustrated by. It's baked into the process. And I think that's a really interesting, you know, byproduct of just getting your report and reading and saying, like, it's a humble act in and of itself to be able to accurately say, yeah, this. These are things that I enjoy and are fulfilled by, and these are things I'm not.

A (6:06)

And that's why I started with the strength. Because what I think, Cody, is what brought me to this is. Is really people struggling to acknowledge what they're not good at. But. But I realized that the people I know who are comfortable with their strengths, with their geniuses are. Are the. Then because of that, they're very comfortable and confident in saying, and I'm not good at these other things. And it's not just your frustrations. It's actually even your. Your competencies. It's like, it's not something you're naturally awesome at. But when people deny their geniuses, I find that there's a correlation between that, between that and them denying their frustrations and their competencies. And so the first thing I want to do when I meet somebody is go, do, you know you're really, really good at those things and that it matters. And if they go, yeah, you're right, I am. It's like, okay, now say this out loud and I suck at this. And that's okay. In fact, I like to say, accept and celebrate what you're bad at. Go ahead and, and say, wow, isn't it crazy how bad I am at doing these things? There's something so attractive about a person who knows what they're not good at and can with just as much delight celebrate that as they do their strengths.

B (7:23)

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, Pat, I was on a call yesterday with a big firm that has like used five dysfunctions for years and years and years. And they're in sort of the team building and leadership development space at that company.

A (7:37)

Yeah.

B (7:38)

And they were asking questions like, how do we actually further the work that we're doing with the five dysfunctions? And as I sort of laid out some of the other tools and, and resources that we had, I was, I, I was advocating for them. I was really galvanizing, saying like, hey, really, when we talk about trust as the foundation of teamwork, a lot of that leads is, is around vulnerability, which is a, a byproduct of humility. Right. And so I was really pushing for working genius as like, hey, one of the fastest ways you can build trust. Now we have other exercises that we use with teams and we do all sorts of things to help teams kind of dip their toe into, into levels of vulnerability that maybe they have not before. And some, and those are really great. A lot of them are, you know, we do the personal histories exercise or, but this one is so unique because it's actually applied to the context of work too. So it's almost like a, a work oriented vulnerability act. It is personal in the sense that it comes from your own deficiencies or lack of fulfillment and types of work. But it just was so interesting how it accelerates the ability for a team or individuals to sit around a table and say, hey, here's some things. I love doing this type of work. Please give me as much as you can. And here's the other stuff that if you gave it to me, it would be frustrating for me and for everybody on this team. How that will, like, it's like a lubricant for trust, you know, like, it just helps teams get there faster.

A (9:10)

Yeah. And what's great about it is you get both the strength and the weakness, and you get to talk about them simultaneously. You know, I think the. The thing I really want to do in this conversation, Cody, is remind people about how dangerous it is when we don't fully accept and acknowledge and celebrate the things that we're not great at. And. And I think that I kind of want to scare people into realizing that when they don't do that, it really. There's a huge impact on them and their relationships with the people around them and on their teams at work and at home. Because. And I was thinking about this just like 10 minutes ago, Cody, preparing for this. I was thinking, like, it's so uncomfortable when you're around somebody who's bad at something or who's made a big mistake and they're uncomfortable acknowledging it, and everybody else has to kind of tiptoe around it. And I was thinking about. About. I used. I thought about what would be a preposterous example of this. Imagine there are people in the world, God bless them, that have really bad breath and that, you know, and it comes from their stomach or their chemicals. It's not like they're. But what a horrible thing to have bad breath. Well, if you have bad breath, you ought to tell people when you meet them. First of all, you'd carry Altoids with you all the time. And you should say to people, hey, my friends, or my spouse tells me, and I know I have bad breath. And so if you notice that, you can let me know and I'll go ahead and take a mint and think about how much better that would be than everybody going, that dude has bad breath. Like, oh, yeah, he knows. You could tell him that.

B (10:51)

Yeah.

A (10:52)

And if you're bad at something at work, say to people, like, I'm not good at this. I need help. You're going to notice that. So point it out to me. I'm not going to be embarrassed. In fact, I'll appreciate it if you let me know that I need to do better.

B (11:05)

One, you're obviously as good as you were six months ago about coming up with preposterous examples, so you've not lost a step on that at all. But I actually like that example. And then I would take it a step further and say that in the context of work, the. I actually mean the actual culture of many organizations and places of work out there. You're not supposed to say, I'm bad at something. Like. Like there's in fact, like, you're incentivized to hide all of Your weaknesses or even you're incentivized to sort of brush under the rug the type of work that you don't enjoy and kind of muscle through it. And so imagine living in an environment and every day 9 to 5, where the idea of being humble, the idea of saying, hey, I don't actually like this, is countercultural. And then having to do it in the midst of that. And that's why the teams that build the most amount of vulnerability win, because they can overcome that.

A (12:08)

You know, I talked to a guy last week. I'd forgotten about this. A fantastic guy, actually, it was a couple of weeks ago, and he's a we in the Working Genius, and we are notorious. They're wonderful, beautiful. I mean, every type is great, but they're really sensitive, thoughtful, helpful people. They come alongside, but they're really deep in their thoughts, but it's very easy for them to get overlooked. And anybody listening to we will say, I mean, I'll meet them and I'll go. So you do a lot for other people and you feel really sad when they don't appreciate it. And it's hard for you to say that to them. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's so true. Well, this guy is brilliant. He's really. He's got a mathematical mind, analytical mind, and he works at this big company and he's a senior executive, but they won't put him on the executive team. And they finally said to him, yeah, you're. You're humble, and that's a weakness, and that's why you're never going to be on the executive team. Now he has two options. There's a few more, but that's like, yeah, they're right. I'm going to stop being humble. And then he's going to become the most unattractive, difficult person to be around. And he might make it on the leadership team, but the rest of his life is going to suck. Or he probably needs to go, I need to probably find an environment that actually values humility. And I actually thought it was quite good that the executives admitted it. I mean, I would never want to work there or do business with them, but I couldn't believe they actually came out and told him that. And. And that's the thing. You want to be in a place where humility and being a wonderful enabler is valued and not criticized.

B (13:44)

So I love that story. This is one of my. One of the things I love most about the podcast, Pat. Both the Working Genius podcast and the at the Table podcast is you know, we don't often talk about like sort of underneath all of this is change, the idea of changing the world of work. Because the idea that there's a company out there that says, you know, humility actually is not of. Not a value to us. I'm hopeful that like the leaders that listen to this and the company leaders and team leaders, like, realize how that's not a world we want to work in or live in. That we actually want people to be able to show up and be vulnerable and be humble and that actually imagine a company that's like, hey, you're so humble. We want to put you on the executive team. That feels like such a better world of work. The idea that I, I agree with you. I'm glad that they were open and honest, that that was a. In their environment, that's a. Considered like a detrimental virtue. But I, I'm hopeful that more and more leaders can see that as a valuable asset and not just to be a weakness.

A (14:54)

Yeah. And just to be clear, there are no working genius types that lack humility, fundamentally.

B (14:59)

Right.

A (14:59)

And. And if we were talking about this in terms of the. The. An organization that's healthy, humble, hungry and smart are critical attributes and virtues for being a good team player. So no matter what your working genius type is going to an organization that doesn't value humility is beyond working genius. But for a we it is particularly hard. They're like, but the very thing I am which is thoughtful, sensitive and responsive to other people's needs, you actually see that as a weakness. That company doesn't deserve you to work there. Um, and so that's a tough one. You know, Cody, one of the things I want to here is what really prompted me to do this episode. And I'm glad we saved it toward to the latter half because it only makes sense when you consider everything else. And that is this humility is really the great booster. It's the accelerant of whatever your Myers, your working genius is for that. Any other thing you have is too. But in working genius, I almost said Myers Briggs, but I love thinking about them both together. But what we have found at the table group and in my personal relationships with people is when somebody does not have a genius in a given area. We know somebody on our team that doesn't have discernment in her genius. So it's in her competency. But the difference between it being in your genius and your competency is big. And when she comes up with an idea, she'll say, hey, you guys, you know I don't have discernment as a genius, so this might not make sense, but. But. So maybe I haven't discerned this all the way, but here's what I think. Because she's so comfortable knowing that discernment is not one of her geniuses, her ideas are actually pretty good because she's. She's not stressed out about trying to prove that she's just as good as somebody that has d in their genius, and that could be in any other working genius as well. And when people know that they don't have that, and when somebody says to me, will you help me with this? And will you help me on my terms? I can go, you know, I don't have a lot of E, so I'll help you. But know that it's not. I'm not good at it. Just by saying that out loud and acknowledging it, I probably will be better at it. But when people feel like they don't want to admit they're like, well, I'm just as good as you are at this, they end up pressing, and they actually get worse at it. Yeah, it's like it's such a detriment to try to prove that you're good at something you're not. It actually makes you worse at it. Does that make sense?

B (17:32)

Yeah, absolutely. And it fractures. It creates silos and fractures the team. As you were saying, you know, you're teasing out that example. I love that results is at the top of the pyramid, you know, like, that this is all about the collective results of the team. And if you. And in some ways, that's a posture of humility. Right. It's not that it has to be my idea or that I have to be the discerner or I have to be the one that galvanizes or even pushes it across the finish line with tenacity. And that's one of the beautiful things about a team that can really embrace humility or an individual that can embrace it in their own weaknesses, is to say, hey, I want our team to win. And as a result, I'm going to play the role that I'm most designed and equipped to play. And I'm going to let the people around me also participate in the way that they're designed, you know, instead of it fracturing them.

A (18:23)

And in those moments where you have to use your working frustration or competency, because we all do, when you know you're not good at it and, you know everybody else knows you're not, you're actually going to have less Stress, like, I like to say, like, if you're a baseball pitcher and you're not supposed to be a good hitter and you're in a game and the coach says, we need some. We don't have any pinch hitters left. Hey, pitcher, you're going to go up and hit. If he knows, hey, I know I'm not supposed to be a good hitter. Nobody's expecting me to hit a home run. And if I strike out, that wouldn't be that big a surprise. But I'm going to go up there and try to get a hit. You're going to be more likely to get a hit than if you go up there going, oh, no, I have to prove that I'm good at this. It's better to go, you guys know I'm not good at it. I'm going to give it my best shot. You'll relax and have a lot less pressure, and your results will probably go up. I have a friend here in the office. Well, actually, and our engineer, Matt. This is a great example. Matt's a wd and what he doesn't have is I. And when I come up with an idea, when I I something, he'll give me his discernment. Well, Matt, tell us how this works for you, and do you feel stressed out about not having eye? Not anymore.

C (19:30)

I used to because I felt like a jerk shooting down ideas without being able to provide an alternative. Like, I'd say, I don't think that's going to work. And you said, do you have a better idea? And I'd say, no. And before working genius, I used to try and come up with something, and it would kind of undermine my opinion either way if I tried to come up with something and it didn't make a ton of sense. So, you know, using working genius, I can just say, no, I don't have an idea, and I'm okay with that. And I usually call it out, too. I'll usually say, hey, I don't have a better alternative. But I also don't think this is going to work the way we have it now.

A (20:05)

So, yeah, and it's. And none of us are like, well, then how dare you criticize our idea? We're like, no good. Keep doing that. And thank you for not trying to. Now, if you had to step up to the plate and invent something, you would go up there and go, well, you know, guys, this is not my strength, so I'll give it my best shot. Yeah, we probably wouldn't put you in that position too often.

B (20:23)

The other thing, it leads to pads. Like back to your baseball analogy. When that picture, when that pitcher actually gets a double, the team goes crazy. You know, it's like, yeah, like I did a little invention with Julie the other day and I was like. And she did. The very thing you're describing is like, hey, I know this is not your, this is not your skill set, but we really need something to look at, so can you just like try your best? And it wasn't bad. And we were like, hey, that's, that's not bad. Let's, let's go with that. You know, so you get to actually celebrate people when they, or when they're able to participate in that way without it being like, well, that's not as, as good or, or didn't materialize the same way as if somebody else had done it.

A (21:01)

There's a guy in our office here who, Joe. And discernment is not one of his geniuses. And I'll go into his office and we'll brainstorm and we'll be evaluating things. And he knows that when he feels bad about that, he doesn't evaluate things as quite as well. And when he, he, he gets defensive and he gets like stressed and then his, his ideas decline in value and, and he said that. He goes, and then we'll be in a meeting, we'll be talking, and he's totally comfortable with who he is and he has all these interesting perspectives. And I'll go look at you, Joe. You can discern things, but only when you accept the fact that it's not one of your gifts. He goes, I know it. I get so defensive and defensive meaning like guilty about not being as good at it as somebody else.

B (21:48)

1 and Pat, you use this example. And I know I'm talking a lot about the five dysfunctions because I think it parlays itself into the foundation of that, which is vulnerability based trust. Right. Humility is that. But I love when you use the example that if even one person on the team is not humble and not vulnerable, it sends a message to everybody else on the team. So I've actually been in a room where we're debriefing the results of an entire team and you know, you get through the third person. That's like, yeah, this is pretty accurate. You know, I, I get, I get that this makes sense for me and the way that I enjoy work and the parts of work I don't love. And when you get to the one person that says, like, you know, I can do all this, this is all of these things are within my skillset and I actually really enjoy all of them. And that brings the entire session to a halt.

A (22:38)

And.

B (22:38)

And it really is a lack of humility. It's a. And then what it does is it sends a message to the rest of the team to say, like, you know what? It might be in my best interest to not admit that I'm not good at this. And so let me self protect and self promote and say, like I'm gonna. You know what? I actually feel like maybe I'm good at three or four of these things, or I'm fulfilled by three or four of these things. So it really is a, a critical, like it's a team killer, when even one person won't be humble around these results.

A (23:08)

Matt, we had somebody write in and tell us they were good at all six. They had six geniuses, no competencies or weaknesses. What did they call themselves? They had a name for themselves.

C (23:17)

A lethal systems thinker.

A (23:21)

He said they were a lethal systems thinker. And what was it they. They really did think that they did not have any weaknesses. Now let me tell you something. That person would be so hard to work with because they would step up at every project and go, no, I'm. I'm really great at this. And you would have to get comfortable going, actually, you're not. And who wants to work with somebody where you have to tell them you're not very good at this or that or that. I'm going to tell you the four things that you're not awesome at. It's so much better when people. And that's. That never happens. I mean, it's hardly ever happens. Most people are just as relieved to discover their. Their frustrations as they are their geniuses. And, and I think that's what I want to leave people with. It's like. And Cody, you've talked about this. We could have developed a system just called working frustration. Discover what you're terrible at and never take a job that makes you do it all the time. That might have been easier for people to accept because when you tell somebody you shouldn't have a job that you. You hate, people are pretty interested. Like, yeah, what kind of job would that be? So humility changes everything.

B (24:30)

It's good to be back, Pat.

A (24:32)

Yeah, it's good to be back. I appreciate it. Thank God for that. Alrighty, thanks for joining us on this podcast. We love working genius. It's growing a lot. We love our listeners and viewers and our partners and all this. And we'll look forward to talking to you next time on the Working Genius podcast. God bless. Sam.