Podcast Summary: The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni

Episode 88 – "MBTI Is the Noun, Working Genius Is the Verb"

Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host: Patrick Lencioni (Pat)
Co-Host: Cody Thompson

Overview:

Theme:
This episode delves into integrating two influential self-awareness frameworks—the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI/16 Types) and the Working Genius model. Pat and Cody explore how MBTI captures “who you are” (the noun) while Working Genius captures “what you do” (the verb), and how understanding both can deepen insight for individuals and teams. The episode is rich in practical examples, relatable stories, and advice for applying both models to work, hiring, and family life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nouns vs. Verbs: MBTI and Working Genius

• Pat: “When we think about working genius, we’re talking about the verb—things we like to do...Most other assessments out there, they don’t really tie to the kind of work we like to do.” (01:00)
• MBTI highlights personality preferences (operating system, the "noun").
• Working Genius focuses on natural gifts or enthusiasms for types of work (the "verb").
• The combination: "One plus one equals four"—more insight together than separately. (02:52)

2. Quick Primer: Myers-Briggs (MBTI/16 Types)

• Pat provides a rapid overview for new listeners, emphasizing MBTI’s four dichotomies:
  • E/I: Where you get energy (Extrovert/Introvert)
  • S/N: How you take in information (Sensing/Intuitive)
  • T/F: Preferred decision-making (Thinking/Feeling)
  • J/P: Organization of the world (Judging/Perceiving)
• Notable Quote: “There is no correlation between working genius and Myers Briggs. We’ve tested this...” (06:52)

a. Example: Extrovert/Introvert and Meetings

• Extroverted discerners process out loud; introverted discerners need more prompting in meetings.
  • Pat: “Whitney is a DE in working genius and an extrovert...Karen and Tracy are introverts. Even that alone works its way into meetings...” (08:06)
  • Cody: “You might have to solicit it a little bit more from an introverted discerner…” (09:02)

b. Example: Sensing/Intuitive in Practice

• House hunting: Cody’s wife (Sensing) makes tactical lists; Cody (Intuitive) focuses on the feel/environment.
  • Cody: “My wife would look for a house...she had a literal list...I would go in like, ‘What’s this neighborhood like?’” (10:52)

c. Thinking/Feeling and Judging/Perceiving

• Pat: “Thinking means logic/objectivity. Feeling is more: How does this impact people?” (13:01)
• No hierarchy: Both Pat and Cody stress that all preferences are equal—about self-awareness, not superiority.

3. Quick Primer: Working Genius

• The six types (Wonder, Discernment, Galvanizing, Enablement, Tenacity, Invention) are clarified for context (03:58).
• Cody: “Let’s use the words so that... there’s additional letters from the Myers Briggs...it’d be fun going over the six types before we get into the nuance.” (03:58)

4. Real-Life Application: Why Both Tools Matter

a. Pat, Cody, and Alan Example (All ENFPs, Different Geniuses)

• Pat: Invent/Discern (WD)
• Cody: Discern/Galvanize (DG)
• Alan: Enable/Tenacity (ET)
• Cody: “When you [Pat] are gone...the rest of the team would be like, ‘You’re an ENFP, go up to the board and do the thing that Pat does at the board.’ I always felt this shame around it...With Working Genius, what you were doing at the board was Invention...not the ENFP part.” (16:00)
• Pat: “Cody, within the context of being an ENFP, likes to discern and galvanize people, and I like to invent and discern.” (17:32)
• Key Insight: Same MBTI can present totally different strengths and roles depending on Working Genius profile.

b. IT Person Example:

• Cody: “If, when we were doing consulting with just the Myers Briggs...an IT person with ENFP personality, that would be confusing. With Working Genius, we see the activity—pushing projects through to completion.” (20:17)

c. Pat’s Sons Example (Same Working Genius, Opposite MBTI)

• Both are WD (Wonder/Discernment), but Casey is ESTJ (Guardian) and Matt is INFP.
• Pat: “They have similar skills, but they’re going to be applied in very different roles. Understanding both allows me not to be myopic...” (21:12)

5. Self-Awareness = Team Clarity and Personal Growth

• Cody: “When you get fluent in both these tools, the ability to help understand another person at a rate that you'd never get through just normal conversation...We’ve now fast-tracked like a year of getting to know someone…” (22:49)
• Pat: “To be able to say to somebody: ‘This is how I’m wired (noun)...and this is what I’m best at (verb),’ it makes every kind of activity...decision so much easier.” (24:09)

6. Advanced Nugget: The “Secondary” MBTI Type

• Most people can meaningfully relate to a second MBTI (by changing one letter).
• This nuance differentiates even “twins” (same MBTI and Genius).
  • Pat: “I’m convinced, utterly, that we have a secondary type...It helps explain nuances and differences...” (24:49)
• Example: Pat’s secondary is ENFJ; Cody’s is ESFP—Pat is more conceptual, Cody is more practical and experiential.

7. Reflections on Assessments, Teamwork, and Human Nature

• Working Genius and MBTI work well together; no observed direct correlation, but strong complementary insight.
• Pat: “We don’t know [the correlation] with DISC or other tools. We’ve studied Myers Briggs, and we know there’s not a correlation; they cover different things.” (27:12)
• Cody: “Life is a team sport...we need each other because we’re not the same...that’s actually a beautiful thing.” (28:32)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pat: “Maybe we should have called it the six types of DOING genius.” (00:46)
• Cody teasing Pat: “Any opportunity I have to call you a nerd, I’ll take it...” (02:16)
• Pat (on research): “We have done a crapload of research and find no correlation between your Working Genius and your Myers Briggs, which is what we want to talk about today.” (06:52)
• Cody (personal impact): “I felt some guilt or shame that Working Genius helped relieve me from because just our Myers Briggs types were identical. And so I was left to think something was wrong with me.” (16:00)
• Pat (on role clarity): “If we switched you and Alan for a day, you would shut down pretty much everything we’ve built in the last five years.” (20:17)
• Cody: “When you get fluent in both tools… you fast track a year of getting to know you.” (22:49)
• Pat (on assessments): “It’s all in service of becoming more self-aware and then tapping into the gifts and talents of the people around you.” (28:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:44 – Main theme: Nouns and verbs—MBTI vs. Working Genius
• 03:58 – Quick overview of the six types of Working Genius and MBTI’s key letters
• 06:51 – No correlation between MBTI and Working Genius (key insight)
• 08:06 – Example: Extrovert vs. Introvert in teams/meetings
• 10:52 – Sensing vs. Intuitive: House and car-buying stories
• 13:44 – Thinking vs. Feeling; non-hierarchical model
• 16:00 – Misunderstandings of similar MBTI, different Geniuses; narratives of guilt/shame
• 17:32 – Realization of different strengths in similar MBTI types
• 20:17 – IT person example and the nuance added by Working Genius
• 21:12 – Pat's sons: Same Genius, opposite MBTI
• 22:49 – Accelerated self-understanding and team success
• 24:49 – “Secondary” MBTI type concept for deeper nuance
• 27:43 – Comparison to other assessment tools
• 28:32 – The value of diversity and teamwork

Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, friendly, and playful, with a “nerdy” enthusiasm for personality frameworks. Pat and Cody use self-deprecating humor and real-life stories to flesh out abstract concepts.

Summary Takeaway

Understanding both your MBTI type (“noun”) and your Working Genius (“verb”) unlocks deeper self-awareness and clarity about work preferences, team roles, and collaboration. Each model alone is valuable, but together, they enable faster, more accurate insight for individuals, leaders, families, and organizations.

For new listeners:
Pat and Cody recommend starting with earlier episodes to learn the basics of Working Genius, as this episode is particularly geared toward those already familiar and hungry for nuance.

“Let us know what you think. We’d love to hear from you.” (29:02)