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- [00:00]
A
I think about professional athletes who retire early and they ask them why and they go, I didn't like it. And they're like, yeah, but you got paid a lot of money and you were famous, and you're really great at that. And they're like, just because I'm good at something I don't like doesn't have a cost for me to do that.
- [00:16]
B
Choosing the right genius for the job and the right person makes it enjoyable, makes it go faster.
- [00:22]
A
Remember to always explain the difference between what drains you versus what you're good at, because some people can get good at things they really hate doing. Welcome to the Working Genius podcast, where we discuss anything and everything having to do with the six types of working genius and how it affects your work and your life. I'm Pat Linceoni, your host, joined by Cody Thompson, my co host, and not by Tracy Noble, who hasn't been on podcast for a while, and we're going to talk about why. Cody, what's our topic today?
- [00:54]
B
Yeah, it's related to the topic. It's honoring somebody's working frustrations.
- [00:59]
A
That's right. We tend to acknowledge a person having a working frustration, which is where they lose joy and energy doing something, but it's really easy with good intentions to downplay that and go, I know you don't like that, but you're actually pretty good at it. And so don't worry, you can do it. And we don't understand the ramifications of making someone do something that drains them. And we're going to talk about Tracy in regard to this, because we asked Tracy to do a lot of things that she doesn't love because she's actually quite good at it. And we think we're actually complimenting her. And she's like, I really don't like being on the podcast. And everybody goes, where's Tracy? She's great. And we think she's great, too, but she just doesn't enjoy it. It takes a lot out of her. And we've been doing this for quite some time. And finally you see what happens when you drain them too much and you realize, oh, I thought I was doing you a favor by complimenting you for being good at something you don't like, when in fact we're driving them into the ground. Not that Tracy's in the ground, but finally we're recognizing we got to quit making her do things she doesn't love.
- [02:11]
B
Yeah. And we're going to get into how we did that over the last handful of months with her working Frustration. The podcast is not her working frustration. I mean, it is in a different way, outside of working genius. But, yeah, the idea. We've talked Pat, on this podcast about, like, advertise your frustrations. You know, celebrate the frustrations. The idea, though, that we want to tease out more is like, well, what does it look like for your colleagues to honor them and not just be aware of them? And like you said, there's this real tension between competency, like, in terms of. Not the way we talk about working competency, but, like, the actual someone's ability to do that thing and then whether or not they should be doing it based on their working genius. Because there's a lot of people that are pretty good at things that they don't enjoy. And so we, like, like you said, kind of out of a service of. We think we're honoring them and saying, like, hey, we actually think you're great at this. We'd love for you to do that. And they're like, please, please, please, can you look at my letters again? Because that falls squarely into my working frustration and is crushing me.
- [03:19]
A
I think about professional athletes who retire early, and they ask them why, and they go, I didn't like it. And they're like, yeah, but you got paid a lot of money and you were famous, and you're really great at that. And they're like, just because I'm good at something I don't like doesn't mean it doesn't have a cost for me to do that. And we just. It's really hard for us to understand. One man's trash is another man's treasure. And when we tend to go, oh, come on, you don't really think that's trash, do you? And they're like, no, it's really trash to me. And for Tracy, a big one for her to get to brass tacks was galvanizing. Yeah, she and I do. I know a lot of people go, oh, please don't ever make me galvanize. And I have had debates with them, like, but you're actually good at it. It's not that bad, is it? They're like, no, I hate it. And when we. When we underestimate the extent to which they are drained by it, we create problems.
- [04:12]
B
And we'll talk about that more in the context of work and how we've done that and what we're doing to change that. But when I think about the podcast, too, Tracy, galvanizing, it's not that that's required. I have it. And I love, like, Sharing ideas with people on the podcast. I think it was also sort of a, if a responsive, disruptive thing for Tracy. She's a discerner enabler, and her third is also a responsive genius and wonder. Right. And so all. All three of her last set of geniuses are disruptive. And there's certain elements of the podcast that you just, you know, she loves sitting back and evaluating ideas. The idea of having to, like, have a burst of thought process and energy and like, adding to the conversation that is less tenable for her, you know, both from a working genius standpoint and from like the responsive, disruptive standpoint.
- [05:03]
A
Yeah. And she's very planful, which has served us from the very beginning. She's been our CFO as well as my editor, and she's really good. She'll read the things I write and say, this doesn't work. This works. But if I made her do that in real time in front of an audience, she'd be like, no, I like to think about things. I'm an introvert. I like to process them and come back to you with a thought out answer. And a podcast is not the place to do that. I mean, you and I are different. It's like we always joke around. I think we're over prepared, which means we've talked about it for 30 seconds. We think we can go, well, that's not Tracy's thing. Now what's crazy, though, is she's actually much better at it than you would think for somebody who hates it. So you go, well, she must not hate it that much. It's like, no, I do. Which is why a lot of people have told us, our longtime listeners who have said, remember to always explain the difference between what drains you versus what you're good at. Because some people can get good at things they really hate doing. And. And that's a different thing.
- [06:03]
B
Yeah. So do you want to talk about what that looked like in the context of, like, we reorganized our team and our company and for this very reason, like, we could. We could put Tracy in charge of anything, and she would. She would do it really well. And that's the problem. Right, Right. Because therein lies the problem with not really. It's so funny, too. The other thing I'll say, Pat, is like, as people are listening to this, I think it's so interesting. Like, we live and breathe this stuff every day, and we still overlook it sometimes.
- [06:37]
A
Absolutely. And that's why we want to come on here and talk about this. So we put Tracy in charge of a bunch of things that required her to galvanize people. And the problem with Tracy is that she's going to get a b plus at the lowest on the things she dislikes the most. And she will tell you, it's like, that's how she was as a kid. You know, you have to overachieve, and you have to do this, and you provide for other people's needs. Well, just because you can doesn't mean you should or that you will be able to sustain that. So we kept putting Tracy in roles, and this is the people that came up with working genius, and she was one of them. I was not paying attention to the fact that I was constantly asking her to do things she didn't like, because she masked that with her joy and capability. And so finally, we figured that out, and we've changed things around, and that's a great thing to do. And to make that person realize you didn't fail by doing that, you have to speak up for what feeds you and what doesn't.
- [07:35]
B
Yeah. What's interesting, Pat, is, like, this is why I love working genius, because it's in one way, it's a productivity tool. Right. We're going to get more work done at a higher quality. But it really is about joy and energy, because by all business metrics, what we had done seemed like the right decision. Right. Like, she was great at the role we put her in, which was managing other parts of our company. Like, if you were just objectively looking at results, we would say, that's a great reorganization you guys did. You know, this is awesome. But if we're looking at the way it drains the energy of the people in the room, that's what it finally came to a head was Tracy saying, like, boy, I know it's going well, but it's not going great for me. And then what also happened, because a lot of what we put in her bucket, Pat, required some galvanizing, which is her lowest.
- [08:23]
A
Right.
- [08:24]
B
And what was interesting is we're on the leadership team, and we're having these conversations, and she's kind of expressing, oh, man. I had to have this conversation with this group the other day, a vendor of ours, and that was really draining. I'm over here as a galvanizer thinking, boy, that actually sounds pretty fun. But I want to honor what we've done with the reorg. So I'm not going to insert myself in the conversation. And this is the beauty of working genius is she was like, please, somebody else do this. And I was like, please, let me try that. That sounds awesome.
- [08:54]
A
Right? And I love what you've said from the very beginning on working genius. Cody is very interesting, and that is that when you know somebody's working genius, their job description, even their. Their. Their scope of responsibility, becomes a little less important. You can beg, borrow, and steal from people to do things that are outside of the official org chart based on the fact that they love doing it and they're good at it. So to ask somebody, hey, I know that I'm responsible for this, but I'm terrible at it. You're good at it. Do you want to do a little bit of my job today? Sounds like something you would never ask somebody, but that's a party for them. And when you work in an organization where people actually invite one another to cover for them or to do things that they love, it's a win, win. But we don't do that when we think, I should never ask somebody to step across a dotted line and do something outside of their area of responsibility, when, in fact, the best organizations have that kind of flexibility. There's still clarity about ownership, but there's a total invitation for people to operate outside of their hard lines of responsibility because they're great at it.
- [10:01]
B
When it. I think it speaks, Pat, to the philosophy we have about work, because if it were just about results and productivity, which a lot of companies out there, that's how they operate. Right? Which is, hey, do we get the job done or do the numbers work? But we philosophically believe that we're created to work, and it's about human dignity. Like, how do we put you in a position that dignifies how you are wired and created and then fulfillment and joy, you know, And I think that if. Because I'm sure there are people, Pat, that are listening to this, are like, you guys work at a fairy tale company. Because I. My working frustration is xyz and my job tells me I have to do this. And. And I think that there are companies that don't have the same philosophy of work, that. That the idea of moving Tracy out of a role that she was even good at into something else would be untenable for them because they think about it entirely differently.
- [10:58]
A
Yeah. And that's not to say that Tracy wouldn't step into a. Into a moment or a week or even a month of having to do something outside of her genius, even for like, six months.
- [11:09]
B
So. Yeah, exactly.
- [11:11]
A
Exactly. And so we're not trying to say, well, gee, am I going to staff everything? Like, for the next two weeks, we need somebody to do this, you don't have it. No, no, no. Everybody has to do something, even in their areas of frustration. But when we let them continue to be in that place for a long time, it's no good. And that's why it's so important to have these conversations. You know, I think, Cody, when you said that other people might listen to this and say, gosh, what are we doing? Are we running an amusement park here? The thing about it, it keeps coming back to this for me because productivity is both short term productivity, which I would call efficiency, and long term productivity, which I would call effectiveness. And I still think this is one of the things that so many leaders and organizations struggle with, because if they can't measure the short term productivity of something, they think that they're failing. And I think that when we say no, I really want to see what's going to happen over the next three to six months, not the next three days or three hours. You can choose to do something that seems inefficient, but it works out. So I think we need to actually ask ourselves, we need to look at a longer term horizon. And I don't mean five years, I mean like three to six months versus three days or three hours. Because effectiveness always beats efficiency. But it's really hard to let go of efficiency sometimes.
- [12:33]
B
Yeah, you know, Pat, the other thing, you know, when you, when you brought up the idea that we job descriptions are less relevant, I kind of want to put some handles on this for people because I think, I think we do, we do something that maybe we don't articulate often, which are like kind of filtering things in regards to working genius. And so if you're asking the question, so how would I, how would I apply this? The first thing that we sort of intuitively do is we say, what does the work require? You know, okay, So I think about it like my father in law restores cars. You know, when he, I go get the tool, that's what I do. I'm not good at restoring the car. But if he said, you know, he's looking at a certain size nut on a screw is like, oh, I need that size wrench to get it off. You know, I need that size, you know, socket wrench to get it off. Well, I can't bring him a different tool for that, for that job, you know. And so even us saying like, okay, we're putting Tracy into this role where she's managing these things, we probably could have done a better job of saying, like, what would that require? It does require Some of her genius discernment. It required a lot of that, but it also probably requires a bit more galvanizing than we were aware of.
- [13:45]
A
Right.
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B
You know?
- [13:46]
A
Right.
- [13:46]
B
And so we ask like, okay, what does the work require? And that will give you a good sense of like, okay, the second question is, do we have someone that would thrive in that role? And. And so it's like, if I brought the wrong tool, if I brought a screwdriver when he's trying to remove an, you know, a 716 nut off of the. The car, that's not helpful. Now, there are some tools that you could. You could make work, but it just makes it difficult. And so just like choosing the right genius for the job and the right person makes it enjoyable, makes it go faster. And I think just asking that question, like, what does the work require? That helps us get clear of what we think it is. And then do we have somebody that would thrive in that role? Even just those two things alone would. Would put you light years ahead.
- [14:34]
A
That makes a lot of sense. Because when we just think about the person and that, we got to really break it down into what is that going to require? And we. It's so even, like we said, we're the people who came up with this. But even sometimes I don't get down to that level. You know what else is interesting about this, Cody, is this tool came about because I was galvanizing and I was burnt out. That's how we came up with working genius. Somebody said, why do you get grumpy all the time? And I said, I don't know. And what we figured out is because I was galvanizing all the time. Well, it was my working competency. And here we are four and a half years later, and I wasn't even thinking about the fact that I was going to burn somebody out by leaving them in a. In a role that required more galvanizing that they liked than they liked. And it was because I didn't even think about it in those terms. So the cobbler's children without shoes. You know, sometimes that happens. It happens to all of us. So the idea here is really think about these things. And also if you're in a situation where you don't have the perfect fit to say to somebody, hey, I realize that you're in a job of doing this. It's only going to be a. For a short term, we're not expecting you to be great at it. We will help you with it. That takes the pressure off. But when a person thinks like, oh, this is the role I'm going to have for an ongoing period of time. Burnout is inevitable. Even I would call it predictive burnout. They could just see the future and go, I don't want to be doing that.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah. And I love calling it honoring somebody's working frustration because it's, you know, the idea that it's. It requires a team to honor the fact that somebody has a frustration, you know, that we can't just, you know, we. We. We talk a lot about how do we leverage people's geniuses, but it's just as important to say, like, hey, what is the stuff that drains you? And, you know, even if you're equipped at it or good at it or competent at the work, let's honor the fact that that is draining for you and try to not put you in a position where you're gonna get burned out.
- [16:36]
A
Right? And once again, the biggest thing to learn here is this positive. People will overlook somebody's working frustrations and think that they're doing something good by saying, but you're actually great at that. You know, you're a really good football player. You should play football. And they're like, I want to be a piano player. They're like, well, it's like, yeah, but.
- [16:59]
B
In high school, like, every person that's over six feet or six, five, they're like, you need to play basketball. I don't love basketball.
- [17:06]
A
Yes. Oh, I feel so bad for people that are six, seven, and every day they meet a stranger like, did you play basketball? And they have to go, no, I didn't. So let's do this. Let's go out and honor people's working frustrations. Really respect that. It drains them of their energy. And when they have to do it, let's realize that we have to give them extra reminders that it's not long term. Praise them for it and thank them for taking one for the team. Alrighty. And that's it.
- [17:37]
B
Sorry, Tracy.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah, we're sorry. We're sorry. And for all those people that are like, why don't you have her on the podcast? Because she doesn't want to be. And we're honoring that. So. All right, we'll talk to you next time, everybody, on the working genius podcast. God bless.