106. No Shame in That

Summary

The Working Genius Podcast with Patrick Lencioni

Episode 106: No Shame in That
Date: February 10, 2026
Host: Patrick Lencioni
Co-host: Cody Thompson

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Episode Overview

In “No Shame in That,” Patrick Lencioni and Cody Thompson delve into the liberating power of understanding one’s Working Genius—as well as Working Frustrations—and the pervasive shame people feel when work doesn’t align with their natural talents. This episode explores why individuals often carry unnecessary guilt about not excelling in certain types of work, how this impacts careers and relationships, and how embracing our unique wiring can bring relief, freedom, and more effective teamwork both at the office and at home.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Working Genius and Shame

• Purpose of Working Genius: At its core, the Working Genius model aims to relieve people of unnecessary guilt, judgment, and shame associated with their natural work abilities and struggles.
  • “From the very beginning, Cody, we talked about the purpose of Working Genius was really to help people experience less guilt and judgment, and shame is part of that.” (A/Pat, 00:49)
• Common Experience: Most people, at some point, have felt shame simply for not being good at things outside their natural “genius.”
  • “Everyone was probably... made to feel shame that had nothing to do with anything but what their working genius was, whatever their working frustrations were.” (A/Pat, 00:00)

2. Liberation from Lifelong Shame

• Transformative Realizations: Many adults carry shame from their working frustrations since childhood or early career, believing something is “wrong” with them. Realizing one’s wiring creates profound relief.
  • “One of the most, like, fun things that we do with working genius is... we get to liberate them from that, where they're like, wait a second. This is because I'm wired this way.” (B/Cody, 02:01)
• Personal Example: Pat shares how his guilt over disliking Saturday chores with his dad was not a moral failing but a mismatch with his working genius.
  • “I felt so guilty... but it was because it was all E.T. There was no—I exercised none of my geniuses or competencies.” (A/Pat, 02:49)

3. Striving Against the Grain & Burnout

• Shame Leads to Over-Striving: Shame often results in years of struggling to “fix” ourselves or to be someone we’re not.
  • “That shame actually translates into this striving... you spend a lot of your life trying to undo what's wrong with you.” (B/Cody, 03:41-06:25)
• Burnout as a Result of Misalignment: Burnout is not just about working too hard but about working outside one’s genius, compounded by the shame of not meeting expectations.
  • “Burnout isn't about working too hard, it's about doing the wrong kind of work... and then feeling completely inappropriate shame about that.” (A/Pat, 07:23)

4. Embracing Differences in Teams and Families

• Variety as Strength: What some see as weaknesses are necessary trade-offs for strengths:
  • “You mean you're saying that this supposed weakness of mine is actually rooted in my strength and I couldn't have that strength without that weakness?” (A/Pat, 05:24)
• Practical Application at Home: Pat explains how his wife Laura understands their differences and adjusts household responsibilities to match their strengths, reducing guilt and friction.
  • “Frankly, I love going out there and figuring all this out. So why don’t you just stay in and do what the stuff you’re working on.” (A/Pat, 04:31)

5. Societal & Parental Expectations

• Systems Reward Certain ‘Geniuses’: Schools and workplaces often favor specific working geniuses, causing many to feel “less than.”
  • “Our systems are designed a different way... the quick witted people get sent to the principal's office and then the loyal finishers get straight A's.” (B/Cody, 14:23)
• Parental Reactions: Well-intentioned parents may push children to improve on frustrations, misunderstanding their innate wiring.
  • “I remember my dad... he'd walk in the house and open the garage door and go, look at your garage. It's a mess... if he knew that I was wired that way, he might have said, oh, yeah, look at this is proof of that thing you're going to invent in 20 years called working genius.” (A/Pat, 11:53)

6. Path to Acceptance and Celebration

• Reframing Weakness: Instead of seeing working frustrations as flaws or sources of guilt, people should accept and even celebrate them.
  • “Cover up your geniuses and your competencies on your report... just look at your frustrations and then say, where have I experienced burnout, guilt, shame, Something's wrong with me around this. And then just try to release those.” (B/Cody, 09:37)
• Role Recognition: Fully embracing both your genius and your frustration improves teamwork and self-esteem.
  • “You should embrace them both... You're quick witted and courageous, then it's like, but you're not these other things. He's like, I'll take that.” (A/Pat, 13:57; B/Cody, 14:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On working outside your genius:
  “Your gifts from God came with your frustrations, and you can feel good about yourself, even if sometimes you have to do the things you don't love. Now, you don't have to think that it's because there's something wrong with you.” (A/Pat, 16:26)

• On the futility of striving against your wiring:
  “We're better at believing the lie that something's wrong with us than we are the truth that we're a four wheel drive, you know, vehicle. And so we spend all of our lives going, well, I wish I could go 0 to 60 instead of embracing the reality and the beauty of the fact that we get to drive uphills.” (B/Cody, 06:25)

• On the joy of liberation:
  “When they get to go, oh, my gosh, I don't have to feel any guilt or shame or carry that anymore, that I'm not good at those other things, that's... maybe one of my favorite aha moments.” (B/Cody, 02:01)

• Workplace example:
  “When I worked at the bank as a teller... I thought, I'm lazy. I don't care enough, I don't pay enough attention. And now it's like, oh, no, dude, your summer job is not what you want, but you are keeping these people entertained and you're having fun.” (A/Pat, 07:43)

• Parental dynamics:
  “Parents need to understand this because... they look at the things you struggle with and they say, why aren't you better at that?” (A/Pat, 10:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 01:07: Introduction, theme of shame in working genius/frustration
• 02:01 – 02:49: The joy of liberating people from shame about working frustrations
• 02:49 – 03:41: Pat’s personal story about childhood shame and mowing the lawn
• 04:31 – 05:24: Family application—recognizing and respecting each other’s wiring
• 06:25 – 07:23: How shame leads to striving and burnout
• 07:43 – 08:43: Bank teller story—misaligned work and misplaced guilt
• 10:25 – 11:53: Exercise: reflect on where shame often matches frustration
• 13:26 – 14:23: Embracing both strengths and limitations
• 14:23 – 15:15: How systems often reward certain geniuses and challenge others
• 15:15 – 16:13: Case study: seeing a young adult flourish in their working genius
• 16:26 – End: The central message—acceptance brings relief

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Flow, Tone, & Takeaways

The conversation is candid and supportive, peppered with personal anecdotes and encouraging reframing of lifelong struggles. Both Patrick and Cody stress that self-acceptance—embracing both strengths and frustrations without shame—enables greater joy and effectiveness in work, relationships, and life in general.

Main takeaway:
Rather than feel shame or guilt over your areas of frustration, recognize them as the necessary complements to your unique genius. It’s not about fixing yourself to match others, but about “driving uphills”—living, working, and contributing in the way you’re meant to.

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This episode provides reassurance and practical permission for listeners to drop the shame and lean fully into both their gifts and their limits—for themselves, their families, and their teams.

Transcript

[A]

Everyone was probably, at some point in their lives, made to feel shame that had nothing to do with anything but what their working genius was, whatever their working frustrations were. And I've seen people do this as an adult where you can say, oh, no, you aren't good at that. And the reason why is because you're really good at these other things, and that's one of your working frustrations, and it drains you of joy and energy. And it's like they're saying, so I wasn't doing something bad or wrong or I'm not less than or fractured. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's actually part of the whole product that God made you to be. Welcome to the Working Genius podcast, where we discuss anything and everything having to do with the six types of working genius and how it impacts your work and your life. It's Cody Thompson and I today, as always, and what's our topic? Cody?

[B]

Yeah, this is going to be a fun one, Pat. I think it's going to be something that, like, gives people relief. We're calling it no Shame in that.

[A]

That's right. No Shame in that. From the very beginning, Cody, we talked about the purpose of Working Genius was really to. To help people experience less guilt and judgment, and shame is part of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then last week, we were talking about a new episode, and we were talking about what relief there is in learning your frustrations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so today, just five minutes ago, before we got started, we realized this is really about shame, because everyone was probably at some point in their lives, to a great extent, hopefully not, or to a lesser extent, made. Made to feel shame that had nothing to do with anything but who their. What their working genius was, whatever their working frustrations were. And the moment. And I've seen people do this as an adult where you can say, oh, no, you're. You aren't good at that. And the reason why is because you're really good at these other things. And that's one of your working frustrations, and it drains you of joy and energy. And it's like they're saying, so I wasn't doing something bad or wrong or I'm not less than or fractured, and I'm like, no, no, no. That's actually part of the whole product of the God made you to be. So this idea that we can help destigmatize or deshame people for what they are is really pretty cool.

[B]

I wouldn't have articulated it this way before. We kind of teased out this topic But I think one of the most, like, fun things that we do with working genius is when we're in a room with leaders who are in their 30s or 40s or 50s or whatever else who have been carrying some shame around their working frustrations, and we get to liberate them from that, where they're like, wait a second. This is because I'm wired this way. And. And they've been carrying the weight of that for decades and decades and decades, and they get to go, hey, look, that's not something I should be good at. That's maybe the most fun. It's great when people discover their geniuses. I love that part. But when they get to go, oh, my gosh, I don't have to feel any guilt or shame or carry that anymore, that I'm not good at those other things, that's. That's maybe one of my favorite aha moments.

[A]

You know, it's so funny, Cody, because I look back at one of the first examples in my life that I can think about my working genius or my working frustration is when my dad used to get me up on Saturday mornings to mow the lawn with him, and I hated it. And I felt so guilty. Like, he really wants me to go out there. It was his favorite thing to do. He wanted company. I know it. And I hated it. And I used to think, I am such a bad son. Why don't I just. And I did it. But it was because it was all E.T. there was no. I exercised none of my geniuses or my competencies. It was really. He's like, I really just want you to follow me around and do exactly what I tell you and make sure you do it perfectly. And so now I look back and I go, wow. That shame I felt was actually explainable. It was like, oh, because those were not my things. And how many people go through lives, their lives, thinking that they're less than when in fact they're exactly who they're supposed to be?

[B]

And that shame actually translates into this striving. Like, this is, like, decades of saying so. I bet that experience you had with your dad led to years and years and years of you trying to prove that you could do those things. Releasing yourself from the shame of that is one thing, but the decades of trying to swim upstream against your frustrations, the relief you feel from that, being in a room with people that are vulnerable enough to say, well, yeah, I'm wired a different way, too. That is. That is so liberating. You know, like, you get to go to Your spouse and say, hey, I know we've had arguments about this for as long as we've been married. I can explain it now that that's not an excuse. But I, there's an explanation for it and we can strategize around that, you know, that's, that's beautiful.

[A]

Exactly. Gosh. Because Laura, now here we are, you know, 55 years later, Laura will say, I'm going to organize the garage this weekend. And she might ask me to help her a little bit. But she goes, I know this is exactly the stuff you hate, and frankly, I love going out there and figuring all this out. So why don't you just stay in and do what? The stuff you're working on. If I need you, I'll ask you, but I'm not going to overburden you with stuff you. That you can't stand because it's not really that good for me and it's not good that for you. And, and I don't feel as guilty because I'm like, yeah, that different now. Now when she says, nope, I really need your help, I don't care what my letters are, I gotta go help her. But even she cuts me slack. And yesterday she spent the entire day having to do all this, like change electricity bills and set up this thing at this house. It was absolutely the worst thing. And she was so frustrated because she was working outside of her genius. And it would be so crazy if I said, hey, well, sorry, that's just what you have to do. Yeah, it's like, yeah, that must suck for you. Imagine if, if you were looking at cars and there was a car that said, I can't go 0 to 60 as fast as the other cars and there's something wrong with me. And you're like, no, you're a four wheel drive truck. And they're like, yes, so. And it's like, well, the way you're built is you can go up hills and over things and that's awesome. And if you, if we built you to go 0 to 60, you could never do that. Like, oh, you mean you're saying that this supposed weakness of mine is actually rooted in my strength and I couldn't have that strength without that weakness. And we said, yeah, you go, I love going up hills and going over things. So if that's the only way I can do that is not to be great at this other thing, then I love that it makes. They're actually rooted in the same system. Yeah, but when we don't understand and can't Attribute our shortcomings to our working genius. When we look at it in a vacuum as I just can't do that, we feel bad. Like, well, I should be good at everything.

[B]

Yeah. I'm going to connect two of these phrases because I think the shame part, we've explored how it can be frustrating and lead to burnout, to work in your working frustration. I don't know that we've ever gone as far as we are today to say it creates shame. And then you just used a phrase, something's wrong with me. So we go through life and whether you're in school as a young kid or, you know, you have an experience, you don't quite know how you're made or wired yet that experience makes you feel shame. You then make this, this leap to something's wrong with me. And then you spend a lot of your life trying to undo what's wrong with you. Like, we're better at believing the lie that something's wrong with us than we are the truth that we're a four wheel drive, you know, vehicle. And so we spend all of our lives going, well, I wish I could go 0 to 60 instead of embracing the reality and the beauty of the fact that we get to drive uphills.

[A]

That's the enemy, the father of lies that we buy into that stuff. It's like, you're not enough. And this was always your big thing. You always said, burnout isn't about working too hard, it's about doing the wrong kind of work. I think burnout is not only about doing the wrong kind of work. It's about then feeling completely inappropriate. Shame about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you told me I had to wake up every day and work doing something I didn't like, that would be terrible. But if you said, I know that you hate that. I know that this is hard for you. And when it is hard for you, I don't want you to feel bad about it. Know that this makes sense. I could survive that a lot longer knowing that I shouldn't feel shame. But if somebody said, why aren't you good at that? When I worked at the bank as a teller, I was never in balance at the end of the night. Which is really the, the binary thing about when you're a teller. You had a good day if you were in balance, and if you weren't, you were a failure. I was. I never understood why. I thought, I'm lazy. I don't care enough, I don't pay enough attention. And now it's like, oh, no, dude, Your summer job is not what you want, but you are keeping these people entertained and you're having fun. And the other people like when you work here. So don't feel bad about that. You're just not in the right job. It's not permission to not try, but it's permission to not kick myself in the ass every time I'm not good at something I'm not meant to be good at.

[B]

And probably your internal narrative at the bank or many people experience this is like the very thing you feel shame about. You think everybody else is good at.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You just assume like, well, why does that come so easily to them? And it just piles on. It piles on the shame, and it piles on the, like, I guess I need to try harder. I guess I need to fight up. You know, I love the. The idea of being, like, against the grain. It's like, you know, when you rub your hand on a piece of wood the wrong way, that's not what was intended for you to do, you know, like, you rub it the right way and you don't get any splinters. And we spend all of our time going, like, why can't I go that way? You know, like, why can't I do the thing? And some people have the exact opposite frustrations or the exact opposite geniuses. And I love that there's, you know, so much of what we talk about is just like, human beings thriving at work. The dignity of the human person contributing to a team. I think this is maybe one of the opportunities for people to experience real freedom in their frustrations. And I told you many times, I was like, hey, if you fire me tomorrow, I'm going to start a company called Frustration Finder, and I'm only going to go. Or Weakness Finder, and I'm only going to go help find people's weaknesses and say, hey, you're just wired that way. Let's not feel any guilt shame. Let's feel some relief around the fact that that's just who you are. And in fact, I would just challenge people, like, cover up your geniuses and your competencies on your report when you've taken it. Just look at your frustrations and then say, where have I experienced burnout? Guilt, shame, Something's wrong with me around this. And then just try to release those, you know, like, that is. That would be such a fun exercise for people.

[A]

Yeah, gosh, that's so true. And you look at the pairing like, so you and I both share the same working frustrations. Ent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the ET is called the loyal finisher and just go, hey, Cody, I have some news for you. Nobody's ever going to call you a loyal finisher.

[B]

If you put that on a job description, I'd be like, oh boy, I can't have that job.

[A]

And don't go, like, you know, you should actually work on that. Go. Just know that that's not you. You might be able to make that happen for an evening or for a week if you had to, but don't. Do not. In fact, if somebody started calling you because people would have called me the loyal finisher when I was a kid because I was working against the grain and getting a lot of splinters. That's not good. You are not meant to be that. And if people are attributing that to you, it's probably because you're doing something against the grain. Cody, I think that parents need to understand this because sometimes we look at our parents, we think, oh, how could they not have cared? They care oftentimes, but they often do the exact opposite opposite. And that is they look at the things you struggle with and they say, why aren't you better at that? And I remember my dad, God rest his soul, a book would come out, he'd be doing really well. He'd come to visit me and he'd walk in the house and open the garage door and go, look at your garage. It's a mess. And I know that he would just be like, oh, man, is he gonna have a good life if he can't clean his garage? Well, I still don't clean my garage and my wife is just as bad as I am and we're doing okay. But if he knew that I was wired that way, he might have said, oh, yeah, look at this is proof of that thing you're going to invent in 20 years called working genius, that you don't like to finish things, do you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he could have like said, yeah, that's just not who you are. And another person could say, yeah, Laura's a creative dreamer. And somebody else could say, oh, I'm not a creative dreamer. I'm just not. And people are like, don't say that about yourself. It's like, no, no, no, say that about yourself because you were never designed to be that and don't feel like you have to be everything.

[B]

I think that this should relieve people of some longstanding stress, some long standing guilt. I love that. And then I think the opposite is also true. There's probably people that take the assessment and look at their frustrations. And then just like double down on their shame around it, you know, like, oh, I knew I was bad at this, you know, oh, that would be such a tragedy. You know, like, I think that the goal is to release people from the fact of like, you were never supposed to be good at that in the first person. You weren't supposed to like that, you know, and there's nothing wrong with you. And you might be in an environment where you have to do some of that, but it doesn't mean that that's who you should become, you know, like, that's not who you are. And so the idea that people could, you know, lean into both their genius and frustration and embrace it fully and say, hey, I'm shedding myself of any guilt or, or stress around these things, that would be beautiful.

[A]

You know what's funny? We should have a shirt that says I'm an intuitive activator. And the back should say, I'm not a loyal finisher. Yeah, yeah, I'm a discriminating ideator, but I'm not one of these. You should embrace them both. You know, Cody, one thing I want to say is I was talking to you beforehand. I can imagine when you were a kid, you' and you are such a dg. It's so wonderful. Somebody might have said you're a little careless at times and a little flaky on follow through. And it's like, yeah, but you're also really courageous and really quick witted and really quick at figuring things out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can't have both. And if somebody actually said before I tell you those other things for your own benefit, you're quick witted and courageous, then it's like, but you're not these other things. He's like, I'll take that.

[B]

Yeah, I'll take that.

[A]

And another person would say, I'm really loyal and I'm responsible and I follow through on things. Yeah, I love that about myself. Now you're not super quick to make a decision. And they'd be like, yeah, that's okay, I'll take what I have.

[B]

Well, unfortunately, the quick witted people get sent to the principal's office and then the loyal finishers get straight A's. You know, our systems are designed a different way. But no, it's true. I kind of grew up thinking like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to go upgrade all my life because this is what work is. And that's what I remember, you know, going to in college, like sitting down to write a paper without invention or tenacity and, you know, people coming into the library and finishing their papers and walking out and the next group of people coming in and walking out. And I was just like, gosh, I really. I loved, like, reading and finding the right quotes and books and knowing how to, like, put the argument together, but just the idea of getting to 30 pages. And I was the guy that was, like, moving the margins and increasing the font size, you know, just like, let me get this done, you know?

[A]

You know something? A good friend of ours, Cody, her son is in the workforce now, and he's doing fantastic. They love him. He loves what he does. And I've known him and her since he was born. His working genius. I know what it is now. He wt, and he had some learning challenges, but wt's, you know, way up in their head thinking about things and really wants to get things done. But it's so separate, and it's really hard in school to have both of those things simultaneously. And I remember saying to her, he's going to shine when he finally finds the kind of thing. And it's so cool to see him do it now because he's slid right into that place where his working geniuses are at use. And he does not have to worry about the fact that school rewards one kind of person generally. And it's so neat to see when a person can go, thank you, God, for my geniuses and thank you for my frustrations, because it's. Without those, I wouldn't have them.

[B]

Yeah, I love the idea of getting to celebrating them and thanking for them rather than feeling shame and then making all this, like, promises to yourself that you're going to get better, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

All right. I love talking about this. This is one of my favorite things. I love the relief people have when they go, you mean. So this is not because there's something wrong with me. It's kind of how I'm wired. It's like, oh, yeah, your gifts from God came with your frustrations, and you can feel good about yourself, even if sometimes you have to do the things you don't love. Now, you don't have to think that it's because there's something wrong with you. It's just not your thing.

[B]

Yep. I love it.

[A]

All right, that's the end of this. I love when we keep these short as well. All right, thanks for joining us, everybody, and thanks for being the people that are sharing this with other people out there. Do, like and subscribe and tell your friends and family and send up a smoke signal, letting everybody know about the podcast. And we'll look forward to talk to you next time on the Working Genius podcast. God bless.