B (2:28)

Yeah, they call it hidden.

A (2:30)

Yeah, that's hidden. And then the upper right is your blind spot, essentially. And that is what you don't know about yourself, but the rest of the world knows. And this is the money part of the Johari window. And that is when you have things that are true about you that you're not aware of and other people are. This is a real problem. Problem in your career and in your life. You're walking around with no pants on, and everybody knows that, but you think you look awesome. It's like the emperor with no clothes. And so what we want to talk about today is how do we shrink that window? The Johari window is the whole thing. But how do we shrink that quadrant of what we don't know about ourselves that others know? And a great way to do that is in using working genius.

B (3:12)

Yeah, it's interesting. So they call. They label that quadrant, the most important one, the blind spot, which is why we use that in the title. But that is maybe the most dangerous one, right? The one where if everybody in your life knows something about you and you lack some self awareness around it. I wonder if the whole Johari window concept came about because Joe went to Harry and said, hey, do you know that you show up like this when we have dinners together with our families or like repeated sort of patterns of behavior that Joe was observing about Harry or Harry was observing about Joe, and they were like, no, I don't. I don't know that. And so they kind of created a whole model around it. I mean, obviously I'm sort of, you know, imagining what that would have been like, but that's probably the quadrant that. That was the aha moment for them to even go into this whole model.

A (4:01)

I love this kind of stuff because it's so simple. And yet you look at the model and you just go, oh, crap. That really explains things. So you're right. They probably just did that. And Said, how does this fit into two by two matrix? Because everything needs to. But yeah, it's a powerful, powerful thing. And when you think about in your life that aren't aware of things about themselves or they're deluding themselves, it hurts them in so many aspects of their life. Because everybody can deal with somebody who has faults, but they know them and they call them out. You can give them, it's easy to give them grace or to coach them and to say, to come alongside and say, hey, you're doing that thing. And they're, oh, thanks. But when somebody's in denial or they're unaware of it and nobody tells them, I mean, it is a bird just pooped on their head. They don't know it and nobody wants to walk next to them, you know. And so how does working genius, Cody, help us figure out what our. What might be in that blind spot quadrant of the Johari window?

B (4:56)

Well, I mean, we talk often about working genius being mostly about self awareness. So hey, let's, let's have a really simple model where we can talk about some of that stuff is already known to others and known to you. Like you're just giving more language around it. I think what's sort of interesting is like, because most people are taking this in the context of their work or family, so either on a team or for personal understanding, they're. When they understand their working frustrations, I think that might be the part that it's most related to. The Johari window is like how. What, what is it about you that maybe you were striving against or like really defensive around that. Now we can just hold up and say, hey, these, this is not how I'm wired. Let me take an honest look at this.

A (5:40)

This. Yeah. And I suppose there are people in life, their Johari window is they're great at something and they just don't know it. And everybody else knows that, you know, like they could. That's a confidence issue or something. That's kind of a high class problem. I mean, we'd rather have that. Like, you didn't know what a great golfer you are. Me, I didn't know. I, you know, or you're a really brilliant person. I. Sometimes we lack confidence to know that. So that's something we want to avoid. But really what we're talking about here is people that have a fault that they're not aware of and so they keep exercising that or working out of that. And we were thinking about this. If you have a working frustration or sometimes even a working competency and you're under the impression that it's actually one of your geniuses or that you're great at it. People are going to get very frustrated with you. And I think about it. Hey, Matt, come and tell us, Come on and just tell us about that person who wrote to us right after this came out and they told us that they were awesome at all of them.

C (6:36)

Do you mean the lethal systems thinker?

A (6:38)

Yeah. Tell us what that was about.

C (6:40)

Well, they were upset and this is very on in the working genius model, and we talked about this on the podcast before, but they were relatively upset because they took the working genius and they were convinced that they had no weaknesses. They said, I'm good at all six. And I think actually they said they were great at all six. And that because they were a lethal systems thinker, they had no weaknesses among the six types that we described.

A (7:04)

And it wasn't easy to talk, to explain to them why that's definitely not the case. Right?

C (7:09)

No. And I tried because, especially because we were early on in the working genius model and we were still really thinking about the content a lot. And this was one of the, you know, this was really early on. This was one of the first people that engaged with the assessment itself. And so I felt kind of obligated to try and get through to this person around the idea behind two geniuses, two competencies and two frustrations, and the fact that nobody is the best at everything. And she was pretty convinced that she, she in fact was the best at everything.

A (7:46)

Now I like to think that she is listening to this podcast now. She's totally come around and she recognizes that she does have frustrations, confidences and geniuses. But if she hasn't come to that conclusion, let's talk about this. She's walking around the world with this really elevated sense of her strengths. And like, how might that play out? Either of you? I'd like to hear about how might that play out in life? Imagine a fictional meeting or situation she was in and how's that going to play out?

B (8:12)

I mean, the first thing that my brain goes to is I have a lot of empathy for that person. Because working genius is really about joy and fulfillment and what drains you. And she, she might even have a relatively high competency in those areas. Like not the way we use the word competency, but like aptitude for getting things done, for example.

A (8:32)

Right.

B (8:33)

But people that are thinking that way are probably white knuckling it in some areas of their life or like really swimming against the grain or that's you don't swim against the grain, right? That you swim against current. That probably there are areas of her life where she's experiencing some burnout and frustration. And if she would just let go of the idea that I'm good at all of these things or that for the. For the idea that some of them give me joy and energy and some of them don't, it would be really liberating. It's not about, like. Like diminishing somebody's value in the world. It's about liberating them to say, I don't have to be great at all of this.

A (9:11)

Right. And I was. I was on a podcast with a woman yesterday who was talking about this, how she graduated summa cum laude and she's done all this different stuff, and she has no ert. And she goes, yeah, I didn't like it. And I was wounded. I had to succeed. I was afraid to fail because I was the first one that went to college and all this stuff. And as you get older, you realize, oh, I don't have to prove myself all the time. So that might be that person's thing. And that's. That's why it's painful for her in this case. But how can it be painful for others being around her, Matt?

C (9:38)

I mean, apart from the obvious, that that kind of attitude suggests, like, not only a blind spot, but probably a lack of vulnerability, it's probably impossible to point out mistakes, shortcomings, whatever that is in general, if that's her attitude towards her abilities and her skills. And when I say I tried to get through to her, like, we went. We went back and forth for a while, and I explained everything about, you know, it's about joy and energy and

A (10:04)

not about your capacity to do things you don't like, even when you. When you have to.

C (10:07)

Yeah, it just. I. I couldn't get through.

A (10:10)

So the likelihood is she goes to meetings and has a hard time going, well, I'm going to trust your opinion over mine because you're really talented at that. And that's not one of my strengths. She's probably going there going, no, I'm good at this, and I'm good at this, and I'm good at this. There's a very high likelihood that she's struggling to acknowledge when she's wrong or when she needs help or when somebody else's idea is better than hers.

C (10:33)

Oh, I'm sure she gets far less help because of the way that she approaches these things.

A (10:38)

Right.

C (10:38)

People. I get more help because people know what I'M not good at. And because. And because it's obvious and because we

A (10:46)

talk about it and what's ironic, and then it moves it right out of your Johari, out of the blind spot window into the public window. I know I'm not good at it. You know I'm not good at it. Nobody gets mad at people when they're not good at things, when they know it. If somebody puts me on their golf foursome and we're playing a scramble and I hit the ball 150 yards down the middle, which I think is fantastic, and they're 275, nobody gets mad at me because I went in there and said, you guys, I kind of suck.

B (11:12)

Yeah.

A (11:12)

And they're like, yeah, we know you do. But if I go in there and go, oh, no, no, you guys, I'm. I'm a. I'm a spy. You got a ringer on the team. And then they're like, now they want to just rip me. They're like, well, if you're a ringer, then you're having the worst day of your life, and you're pissing us off that you talked us onto the team. You talked yourself onto our team. I mean, so crazy that self awareness and vulnerability changes everything here.

B (11:37)

This whole Johari window concept and how working genius applies to it is wonderful because this is like a Johari window assessment for work, how we get things done. When you're the person that observes somebody else's Johari window, you have to ask yourself, is it my responsibility to. Or, you know, observes that blind spot version of the Johari window? Is it. What's my role in my relationship to them? Is it my role to then say, hey, this is going to be really hard conversation, but I want to tell you something about how you come across that you're unaware of. And oftentimes the answer is yes. If you can tell the kind truth and maybe even like, you know, ask the Lord, like, is this. Is this something this person can hear and needs to hear and should hear from me? That's wonderful. But it. But what's great about working genius assessment is it's this objective third party unveiling of these things. And, you know, if we had a Johari or if we had a. An assessment, Pat, for your golf abilities, which it happens. The assessment happens out on the, on the course, right? When it's observable like that, there's. There's. It's hard to refute, right? Like, oh, your ball is 100 yards behind that other person's ball. So there's some objective evidence. If we had more of these opportunities to, you know, elevate the people's, like, blind spots using assessments, I think it would be really helpful, actually.

A (12:59)

Yeah. And that's why it's so dangerous when somebody actually sees their results and goes, no, this isn't true. Like, if I golfed with you and I said, no, I'm just laying up, Cody.

B (13:07)

Yeah.

A (13:08)

Like, oh, you're 450 yards away from the hole. Yeah, I'm laying up. I think this is the perfect spot to hit three more shots of 100 yards to get onto the green.

B (13:16)

I told you this, Pat. The story I have with my own brother, who's been on our podcast, and we've told many stories about him, but we're identical twins. We have a little bit different personalities, different working geniuses. I'm a discerner.

A (13:29)

We're not sure that he's not on the podcast right now. He might be actually doing this.

B (13:33)

Yeah, he. He would sound equally intelligent. No, I'm just. Just this weekend, my wife and I are planning a family trip that he's a part of. My parents are coming, and I call him because I've been down this road with him before, and I'm like, hey, I would love for you to look at the itinerary because really need you to kind of buy into what we're doing. We have kids. He doesn't have kids. It's a little bit different of a trip. And he says, and I'm doing this partly to, like, lay a foundation, because I've, you know, there. There might be a blind spot there. And he says, no, my favorite thing is to not be a part of any of the planning of the trip. And then while we're on it, to complain about what we're doing. And I was like, oh, you know that. That's what you do. That's like. So that moved it from years of it being in the blind spot area to known by self and known by others. That actually changes everything. That's awesome. I love.

A (14:25)

And as funny as that is, it's a gift for him to go. I know I do that now. You can go, okay. He's aware of that. I'm not crazy. See, one of the things about calling somebody's blind spot. And I believe this, Cody, and I love what you said. Take it prayerfully, take it to God and say, should I say something to this person? And I believe that if you love someone, you have to in the right way. You know, Jesus said hard things to people because they needed to hear it. And even if they rejected him, it's like, well, I care more about you than I care about you liking me. But when you do it with somebody you care about and they tell you you're crazy, then you feel like, gaslit. You're like, oh, no, you mean I'm being. And that's like you said, that's why it's really good to have some objective measures or maybe to say to somebody, why don't you check in with some other people you know, that you trust and ask them if this is true too. Because really, what we want is for everybody to get rid of that window that says, I'm not aware of things about myself that other people are because it hurts them in many ways.

B (15:26)

Well, here's a. Maybe even a trivial example of this. But I often think about this, like, when somebody has something in their teeth, that is a Johari window. Like, you see it and they do not know that it's there, but it's kind of uncomfortable for the person that you're talking to. And so I have, like, in my life just said, I'm going to be the guy that just always says, hey, there's, you know, there's something in your teeth, or, hey, there's something on your face or.

A (15:51)

Or worse yet, there's a booger in your nose.

B (15:54)

That's right when you're sitting across from that person, it's kind of uncomfortable, but it's a service to them. I think that's what's hard is, is all of these conversations as you're. You're observing something that might would be uncomfortable for them to hear, and you have to kind of understand, like, there's a little bit of danger and, you know, entering the danger here, but it's in service of the other person. I also often think, like, when people give me feedback that I'm wrestling with, I'm like, what do they gain from getting giving me this feedback? And if the answer is nothing, you can pretty well, like, it's easier to receive and say, like, hey, I know that you kind of risked something to give me that feedback at no personal gain to yourself. If anything, it could just make me think differently about you.

A (16:43)

Yeah, yeah. It is a gift. You know what's a great thing to do? I recommend this. So you're out to dinner. Your wife has spinach in her teeth. I think you should wait till the end of the night just before you're going to bed and say, oh, are you going to take that spinach out. It's been there all night. They really appreciate that you didn't say something. I mean, it's crazy. Withholding important information from people is cruel, right? It's hard. It's hard.

B (17:06)

And having a tool like this, like, you know, Matt, we. We've had this. We. We mistyped you at first. We've talked about this on the podcast. And what was interesting is, like, we thought you were a galvanizer for a while and imagine not having working genius at all and then observing your behavior over a year. And we're like, you don't really seem excited about what we're doing. You don't get people rallied around it. That's a hard way. That's a hard thing to deliver. But having working genius, we were like, let's just play with this a little bit. Is that really something you enjoy or not? You know, and then it helps you kind of opt into a different working genius.

A (17:45)

Yeah, gosh, it. That's true. That makes sense, Matt. Yeah.

C (17:48)

I mean, it goes back to the having shared language and then also the context of energy and joy. Like, even though when I was speaking at a lethal systems thinker, I didn't get through. But having the language around energy and joy and instead of just straight up strengths and weaknesses, it's a lot easier to deliver the feedback as well. In addition to. It's easier to digest it.

A (18:11)

Yeah. And we love our. We love our audience because they've written to us and said, remember, don't call it strengths and weaknesses. Call it energy and joy. It's the natural, joyful strengths and weaknesses or the ones that drain us. And I think it's really important that I want to apply this to me. So ent are my working frustrations. Okay. It would be easy for me as a boss to say, no, I'm not. I finished a lot of things. Look, because I've written a lot of books and all this stuff and make people tiptoe around that with me, which would be such a loss of credibility to me. It would make it very uncomfortable. But when they can come in and go, hey, dude, are you going to finish this? We know you hate doing it, but you have to do it, so get back in there. They can say that without feeling like I'm going to be defensive, like, I'm going to think that they're insulting me, that's going to allow them to help me and to feel good about it. Like, they're not going to get punished for reminding me of something that I already know. But if they Think I'm in denial about that or it's in my Johari window. Every time they come in to remind me to finish thing, they're going to think that they're putting their career in jeopardy, which is really, really painful. And it's going to mean I'm just not going to get feedback.

B (19:13)

I think that's a very real scenario for a lot of people out there. Pat. Leaders out there operating with a bigger blind spot than necessary, who, because they feel pressure as the leader, feel like they have to do all six activities. They have to do all six working geniuses, from wonder all the way to tenacity, and do it really well. And so then they end up defending themselves, like, oh, yeah, no, I am, you know, I'm a pretty good. I'm pretty good at figuring out what the right thing to do is. I have lots of discernment. And then you have years of evidence that that leader maybe isn't as great at discernment. And when they're defensive and they're, you know, got their fists up around that and they're. They're wanting to, you know, wanting to project at least to their team that they're really good at that it can be really, really hard and dangerous to. To go there with, you know, with a leader and say, hey, how about all these years of decisions that haven't panned out? Well, what about that working genius? The assessment takes all of the. It doesn't take all the danger out of that conversation, but it certainly reduces the amount of danger you're walking into because it's just an objective measure of that stuff.

A (20:23)

Yeah. And think about when you go into somebody and go, hey, you know something? I don't have a lot of E. And this is not an excuse. But because of that, I probably don't take an interest in you enough or think about how I can help you in your life. And I'm kind of embarrassed by that because I want to be that kind of leader, but I know it's not my strength, which is not an excuse. I really want to be good at it. But I know I may be unaware of the fact that I haven't been very responsive to your needs. That's so much easier to do that when you have that objective point than just to go in and say, hey, I don't think I've been very nice.

B (20:57)

Right.

A (20:57)

Anyway, we like to keep these short. I think that we've made this point. Here's what I want to call people to do. I want everybody to go and sit down and look at that, the Johari window, and ask yourself, what's in my blind spot box? And then I want you to look at your working geniuses and just say, is it something tied to the fact that I'm downplaying my frustrations or even my competencies that the limitations I have? And then sit down as a team and go over with each other and say, hey, anybody have something here that let's. Let's go around the table and see if we can't help people put things in their. In their working genius or in their blind spot box? Of course, that requires trust, which is. But it's also a way to gain trust, because it's like when you. When somebody tells you you got spinach in your teeth, you really appreciate them, and it says, I think you care about me, so find somebody with a booger or spinach in their teeth today and be the hero. That's. That's what we're trying to say.

B (21:47)

Yeah, exactly.

A (21:48)

All right, thanks for popping in with us, Matt. Thanks, Cody. We'll talk to everybody next time on the Working Genius podcast. God bless.