← The World and Everything In It
The World and Everything In It
2.3.25 Religious freedom and government power, the economics of artificial intelligence, and remembering the Greensboro Four
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- [00:06]
Mary Reichardt
Good morning. Consider the military reservist called up to active duty. How should he be paid when serving during national emergencies, given how many there are?
- [00:15]
Nick Eicher
There are 43 national emergencies now. I mean, this is just a sort of feature of modern life. That Supreme Court question and others ahead on Legal Docket. Also today, the Monday Money beat. David Bonson standing by. And later, the world history book. 85 years ago, four black students stand up by sitting down.
- [00:35]
David Bonson
We decided that whatever actions we were going to take are going to be non violent.
- [00:47]
Mary Reichardt
It's Monday, February 3rd. This is the world and everything in it from listeners supported World Radio. I'm Mary Reichardt.
- [00:54]
Nick Eicher
And I'm Nick Eicher. Good morning.
- [00:58]
Mary Reichardt
Up next, Kent Covington has today's news.
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Kent Covington
Canada and Mexico are installing retaliatory tariffs against the United States. That comes after President Trump enacted 25% import tariffs on most goods from the neighboring countries. Vice President J.D. vance they have already been taking advantage of America for decades. The retaliation is Donald Trump saying, no more.
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Nick Eicher
We're not going to be taken advantage of anymore.
- [01:24]
Kent Covington
President Trump says neither Mexico nor Canada are doing enough to stop the flow of illegal immigrants and fentanyl into the U.S. canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau argued that his words less than 1% of fentanyl and less than 1% of illegal crossings into the US come from Canada. And he announced Canada will be responding.
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Mary Reichardt
To the US trade action with 25%.
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Kent Covington
Tariffs against $155 billion worth of American goods. China is also striking back after Trump applied a 10% tariff to all Chinese imports. Beijing says it's filing a lawsuit with the World Trade Organization. Marco Rubio has embarked on his first trip to Latin America as secretary of state, visiting Panama on Sunday. That comes as President Trump warns Panama of possible retaliation if it does not work to reduce Chinese influence over the Panama Canal. Secretary Rubio though, naturally struck a more diplomatic tone. He noted that for many traveling by sea, Panama is effectively the entry point into the United States. You're the first thing they know about America and how we treat them and.
- [02:33]
David Bonson
How we interact with them.
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Mary Reichardt
You are the voice of the United.
- [02:35]
David Bonson
States in so many ways and that.
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Kent Covington
Is so critical to our country.
- [02:39]
Mary Reichardt
And everywhere we go in the world.
- [02:41]
Andrew Tutt
We hear what a positive relationship we have.
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Kent Covington
The United States built the canal and handed over control of it to Panama in 1977, but it remains a critical throughway for US commercial and military vessels. Panamanian President Jose Raul Molino has thus far resisted pressure from the US on the matter. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in Washington today preparing for a meeting tomorrow in the Oval Office with President Trump, Netanyahu said Sunday.
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Nick Eicher
In this meeting, we'll deal with important.
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David Bonson
Issues, critical issues facing Israel and our region, a victory over Hamas, achieving the release of all our hostages and dealing.
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Nick Eicher
With the Iranian terror axis and all its components.
- [03:25]
Kent Covington
Specifically, the two leaders will reportedly start discussions about phase two of the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. Israel's earlier stated objective of total victory over the terror group remains elusive. The terror group has shown in recent weeks that despite 16 months of war, they still maintain significant control over the Gaza Strip. Meantime, in Gaza, the ceasefire saw its smoothest exchange yet of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners. Over the weekend, Hamas released three hostages who were held for well over a year. Dr. Hagar Mizrahi with the Israeli Health Ministry.
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Nick Eicher
The returnees are undergoing initial medical evaluation.
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David Bonson
They have been reunited with their families and friends.
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Mary Reichardt
This is an exciting day for all of us.
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Kent Covington
Tal Wax is the niece of one of those freed hostages, American Israeli Keith Siegel. She told reporters, if you see that.
- [04:22]
David Bonson
He'S lost a lot of weight, but still he's walking and talking, you can.
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Mary Reichardt
Feel that it's still him.
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Kent Covington
Saturday's exchange took place with the reopening of the crucial Rafah crossing. Israel freed nearly 200 Palestinian prisoners during the exchange, including militants and others charged with crimes. Philadelphia Mayor Cherelle Parker says five people who were hurt on the ground when a jet crashed recently remain hospitalized, three of them in critical condition.
- [04:50]
David Bonson
Please continue to lift them, their families and loved ones up in prayer and our city stands with them and every victim of this tragedy.
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Kent Covington
Learjet crash killed all six people aboard and one person on the ground. A Mexico bound air ambulance crashed shortly after takeoff Friday evening from Northeast Philadelphia Airport. The cause of the accident is still under investigation. Meanwhile, in the nation's capital, authorities say they have recovered the remains of 55 of the 67 people killed in a mid air collision last week. Washington, D.C. fire and EMS Chief John Donnelly during our salvage surveys in preparation.
- [05:32]
Mary Reichardt
To lift the aircraft, additional remains were located and removed from the river and taken to the medical examiner's office.
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Kent Covington
Authorities are preparing to lift wreckage from the Potomac river as soon as this morning. The midair collision last week between a commercial jet and a U.S. army helicopter was the deadliest U.S. air accident since 2001.
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Mary Reichardt
Foreign.
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Kent Covington
I'm Ken Covington and straight ahead, our weekly coverage of cases before the Supreme Court. Plus the Monday Money beat with David Bonson. This is the world and everything in it.
- [06:26]
Nick Eicher
It's the world and everything in it for this third day of February 2025. We're so glad you've joined us today. Good morning. I'm Nick Eichert.
- [06:34]
Mary Reichardt
And I'm Mary Reichard. Time now for legal docket. The U.S. supreme Court will consider two cases of interest to Christian parents, one involving religious education, the other what students are required to read. On that front, let's begin in Montgomery County, Maryland, where parents are challenging a school district over mandatory LGBTQ themed books.
- [06:57]
Nick Eicher
Save our children. Save our children.
- [07:01]
David Bonson
Unfortunately, if they're going to continue to.
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Nick Eicher
Hold their stance, we're going to be.
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David Bonson
Here until the end.
- [07:07]
Nick Eicher
We will still continue to fight for.
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Andrew Tutt
What we believe is a good middle.
- [07:12]
Nick Eicher
Ground, which was the opt out option.
- [07:13]
Mary Reichardt
The audio from NBC News. The dispute goes back two summers ago. A group of around 300 parents were seeking an opt out for lessons they say conflict with their religious beliefs. That includes Muslim, Jewish and Christian families. An unexpected coalition all pointing to the same we deserve a choice in what our children read at school.
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Nick Eicher
But school officials refused the opt out. So these parents took their case to federal court. And now the US Supreme Court has decided to weigh in. The question is whether religious freedom allows exemptions from certain educational mandates.
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Mary Reichardt
Meanwhile, in Oklahoma, a Catholic online school wants to become the first ever religious charter school in the nation. But the Oklahoma Supreme Court rejected the idea, saying it violates the separation of church and state. Public dollars cannot flow to religious instruction as the state reads the law.
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Nick Eicher
The school counters that Oklahoma is violating its First Amendment rights, accusing the state of denying it a charter because it's religious. The Supreme Court will hear arguments in April. These two cases could have broad implications for religious liberty in public education.
- [08:25]
Mary Reichardt
The two oral arguments we will cover today did not attract the same kind of attention the education cases did. But the stakes in this first case touch on national defense. At issue is how long a military reservist should collect extra pay during a national emergency. The case is Feliciano versus the Department of Transportation. The entire thing rests on the meaning of a humble proposition. The word during When Congress says government employers must provide differential pay to reservists called to active duty during a war or national emergency, how long is that? The answer matters very much because differential pay ensures that these people working in higher paid civilian jobs who are pressed into active duty don't have to take a pay cut while serving.
- [09:14]
Nick Eicher
Nick Feliciano is a civilian federal employee and a reservist called to active duty when he was, he initially got that extra pay, but when his service was extended, the pay dried up. So he sued claiming the law guarantees him differential pay the whole time the national emergency is in effect. The federal government disagrees, saying Feliciano's extended duty wasn't really part of the original emergency. Government attorney Nicole Reeves framed it this way.
- [09:44]
Andrew Tutt
The word during has multiple meanings, and.
- [09:46]
Nick Eicher
As with many words, the meaning of.
- [09:48]
Andrew Tutt
During in any particular sentence will depend on context.
- [09:52]
Mary Reichardt
The government argued that during means in the course of, with a substantive connection between a reservist's military service and the ongoing national emergency. Feliciano's attorney, Andrew Tutt, argued that the statute supports his client. Under the differential pay statute, the government must provide differential pay to its civilian employees who also serve in the reserves.
- [10:15]
David Bonson
When they are called to active duty.
- [10:17]
Mary Reichardt
Under a provision of law of Title 10. Thus, during a national emergency, reservists called to active duty under any provision of law must receive differential pay. The government resists this common sense temporal definition of during.
- [10:32]
Nick Eicher
Tutt sought to persuade the justices to draw a bright line that doesn't have to answer so many questions about so many contingencies, saying ambiguity like that just creates uncertainty, not just for courts, not.
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Mary Reichardt
Just for agencies, but for private employers who will face criminal penalties if they get the question wrong.
- [10:51]
Nick Eicher
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson questioned whether Congress really intended Tutt's interpretation.
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Andrew Tutt
And I guess what I'm confused about.
- [10:59]
Mary Reichardt
Is why Congress would have so carefully.
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Andrew Tutt
Amended the statute over time to add.
- [11:05]
Mary Reichardt
New people, et cetera, if the right.
- [11:08]
Nick Eicher
Reading was just, if you're called up, you get it.
- [11:11]
Mary Reichardt
Tutte countered that Congress often amends laws piecemeal to correct interpretations made by executive agencies. Justice Elena Kagan pointed out the nature of national emergencies.
- [11:23]
Nick Eicher
We're not going to have any sanctions programs. We're not going to have any hurricanes. We're not going to. I mean, it just seems like a world which couldn't possibly exist. Pointing out how national emergencies are, there are 43 national emergencies now. Every time we have a sanctions program in place, we declare a national emergency. I mean, this is just a sort of feature of modern life. Justice Samuel Alito took a tad sarcastic touch in questioning Tutt.
- [11:51]
Mary Reichardt
Your thinking is that Congress said, well.
- [11:54]
Nick Eicher
You know, we realize that there have.
- [11:56]
Mary Reichardt
Been national emergencies now for decades and decades and decades. But if we look ahead, we foresee.
- [12:03]
Nick Eicher
The time when there will be peace.
- [12:06]
Kent Covington
Throughout the world and nothing threatening and the lion or the wolf is going.
- [12:11]
Nick Eicher
To lie down with the lamb and.
- [12:13]
Mary Reichardt
There isn't going to be a national emergency. So that's why we've put in, what.
- [12:19]
Nick Eicher
Is it, eight specific provisions that would be superfluous if your interpretation works something the justices also considered the challenge private employers face in interpreting the law. Reeves, arguing for the government, emphasized that employers who fail to extend differential pay could face retroactive criminal liability. Justice Neil Gorsuch hinted at a likely outcome in this case. You don't win everything, but you know it's better than a loss.
- [12:49]
Mary Reichardt
Yes, your honor, yes, and we would of course accept a vacate and remand. He'll take the best he can get well onto the final argument for today. United States versus Miller this is a bankruptcy case, but that doesn't mean it is uninteresting. One thing about bankruptcy is that all the parties who are owed something are supposed to be equal. This case touches on whether the taxman is more equal than everyone else.
- [13:15]
Nick Eicher
These parties owed something are known as trustees. The bankruptcy court appoints trustees to manage a debtor's assets and be the intermediary among the debtor, creditors and the court. The key question here is whether a bankruptcy trustee can claw back tax payments made to the IRS before the bankruptcy filing, just as they can do with payments made to private creditors.
- [13:39]
Mary Reichardt
This case goes back eight years to when a transportation company in Utah filed for bankruptcy. Before that, the company, All Resorts Group Inc. Had paid more than $145,000 in company funds to the IRS. This took care of the personal tax debts of two of its Princip. Bankruptcy trustee David Miller argued those payments were fraudulent transfers, so he sought to reclaim those funds for creditors, claw them back. He wants that money back in the pot for creditors.
- [14:10]
Nick Eicher
So to support his case, Miller cites the US Bankruptcy Code, specifically Section 544B that allows a trustee to use state law to void certain transfers to step into the shoes of an actual creditor. Government lawyer Yira Dubin emphasized this point and cited the relevant law by number the trustee must first identify a creditor with the right to avoid the transfer under state law. If so, he can step into the creditor's shoes and avoid the same transfer under 544B. But if not, he has no one's shoes to step into and he can't use 544B to circumvent the code's two.
- [14:47]
Mary Reichardt
Year look back period for the trustee. Attorney Lisa Blatt pointed out Congress tried more than once to clarify that government agencies are not immune in bankruptcy. First it passed a measure explicitly waiving sovereign immunity for government entities, then another one to ensure agencies could not hide behind immunity to dodge bankruptcy rules. But the Supreme Court has traditionally read those waivers pretty narrowly and after Congress.
- [15:13]
Kent Covington
Made this very broad after this court.
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Mary Reichardt
Twice narrowed, just would be a strange thing.
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Nick Eicher
Especially Platt warned that a decision for the government could force Congress to act yet again to counteract the Supreme Court. But the justices doubted whether trustees can IGN nor who the recipient of a fraudulent transfer is. Justice Gorsuch seemed to lean toward the trustee, citing precedent from 100 years ago. I understand what you're saying. The trustee steps into the shoes of a normal creditor. I don't see that in that language. Isn't there? It does exist in some other statutes, which is notable. And we've got a very old case, right, written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, no less, that says sometimes a trustee's powers to avoid property transfers can transcend the rights of the creditor in whose shoes he might otherwise step. Justice Brett Kavanaugh raised concerns about potential IRS overreach in this comment to Dubin for the irs, the other side says.
- [16:17]
David Bonson
That your position will create a playbook.
- [16:21]
Nick Eicher
For fraud, that you pay your personal tax debts with corporate funds and let.
- [16:26]
David Bonson
The IRS then in their words, hide behind sovereign immunity. That would shortchange creditors. So I'll make sure you respond to that.
- [16:34]
Nick Eicher
Dubin argued that just the opposite is true. But Justice Elena Kagan came at her argument this way. But if I understand the argument that you're making, you're saying, well, because Congress included so many things, we don't have to take any one of them particularly seriously.
- [16:49]
Andrew Tutt
That is not at all our position.
- [16:51]
Nick Eicher
Our position is it doesn't sound all that good. Yes. So that is not our position.
- [16:55]
Mary Reichardt
If the Supreme Court sides with the government, then tax payments would be untouchable in bankruptcy, even if they'd be considered fraudulent payments under normal rules. If the trustee wins, it could limit the government's special protections in bankruptcy cases and make sure the IRS does not get priority over other creditors. So the justices could either keep the playing field level for all creditors or give the government a special advantage in bankruptcy cases, which could tip the balance in future bankruptcies involving taxes and government debts. And that's this week's legal docket.
- [17:41]
Kent Covington
Additional support comes from Dort University, offering.
- [17:45]
Nick Eicher
Thoughtful reflections on engaging with the modern.
- [17:48]
Kent Covington
World through a Christian lens. Dort eduinallthings from Pensacola Christian College Academic Excellence Biblical Worldview Affordable Cost Go pcci. Edu World.
- [18:07]
Nick Eicher
And from Rich Haven Camp and Retreat centers in Brevard, North Carolina and Cono.
- [18:12]
Kent Covington
Iowa, camp and year round retreat registrations@ridgehaven.org.
- [18:29]
Mary Reichardt
Coming up next on THE World and everything in it, the Monday Money Beat.
- [18:36]
Nick Eicher
Time now To talk business markets and the economy with financial analyst and advisor David Bonson. David heads up the wealth management firm, the Bonson Group, and he is here now. Good morning, David.
- [18:47]
David Bonson
Well, good morning, Nick. Good to be with you.
- [18:49]
Nick Eicher
Well, GDP is in for 2024. No surprises really. 2.8% for the entire 12 month period. David, what do you want to say about it?
- [18:59]
David Bonson
Well, it came in in line with expectation. There was some, you know, question as to whether or not it'd be 2.7 or 2.8, but that should be pointed out is real GDP. That means net of inflation. Nominal GDP was obviously even higher. So all in all, a good year in terms of economic growth. Basically the number's two things, Nick. It's below what our average since World War II has been and it's above what our average has been since the financial crisis.
- [19:30]
Nick Eicher
All right, David. So also no big surprise, the Fed chose not to cut interest rates at its rate setting meeting last week. What meaning though, do you read into that? Is this a sign of uncertainty around inflation?
- [19:45]
David Bonson
No, I don't think so at all. I think that they have taken over 100 basis points out of the yield curve. Interest rates are more than 1% lower than they were just a few months ago and they have still signaled the intent to continue cutting. I would point out that a few weeks ago the futures market was starting to price in two more rate cuts by the end of the year. And it's now at 62% odds that there will be three rate cuts by the end of the year. So the indications are not that they're stopping cutting, just that they're not going to do one every single meeting. It's a balancing act. It is not something I'm supportive of the fact that it is a balancing act because it points to the sort of arbitrariness and, and interrupt interventionism of the whole process to begin with which I favor a rules based approach. And this isn't rules based, this is discretionary. But nevertheless within their discretion, they believe that they need to get rates lower and they believe they need to do it at a slow pace. And both of those things are reasonable beliefs. But if they were to now say we don't know whether or not we want rates to be lower, that would introduce uncertainty. They haven't said that. It's just simply a question of the pace at which they get there. And candidly, it helps a bit because they are getting jawboned a little bit from the White House and you end up with the executive branch trying to get in there and play a role in monetary policy, which I think to some degree undermines some of the independence of it. But by not cutting now and then cutting later, it kind of holds off some of those issues that are going to come up with the White House. Jay Powell has a year and three months left of this very difficult job. And I think he has a clear plan as to what he wants to do along the way. And it mostly centers around housing. He we cannot be at a 30 year low for existing home sales transactions taking place when Powell is leaving office. By that point, the impact it will have had into construction, into finance, into consumer, into all kinds of other elements of the economy would be very problematic. Housing has not yet caught a tail in terms of economic distress. I don't think they care if house prices go higher or go lower. I think their point is they need house sales to take place and they're not taking place. And that isn't going to happen until mortgage rates come lower. And the Fed is trying to figure out how to make that happen.
- [22:15]
Nick Eicher
Right. Well, David, Tariff Talk is feeling like a lot more than just talk coming into the weekend here at World because we use a lot of Canadian magazine paper. We were sweating that 25% toll. What is your expectation for where things might go with Mexico and Canada?
- [22:36]
David Bonson
I think that what a lot of people have to understand when it comes to Mexico and Canada is regardless of what exactly is said and what it looks like is going to happen at a point in time, I am extremely confident that the President does not want tariffs with Mexico and Canada. He doesn't want the market disruption. He doesn't want the negative economic impact you mention, even how it affects, you know, entities like World. He doesn't want the bad headlines. And by the way, he doesn't want the higher prices that everybody can deny it creates, but that it most certainly does create. Now people will say, well, David, if you don't think the President wants it, why is he doing the things that could help, you know, implement it, why is he saying it and so forth. And that's where I make a separation between China and other countries and the way his policy framework is set and the particulars with Mexico and Canada, he definitely has people in his ear that have told him you don't have anything to lose by threatening these types of things all the way to the one yard line. And he's liked what he's gotten so far. The incident with Columbia a week ago, those are headlines that this president lives for. You know, even if some of it's a little bit embellished or exaggerated the basic narrative that Colombia wasn't being cooperative, he threatened tariffs and then they became cooperative. That's something he loves. And so there's some outcome that he's going for with both Mexico and Canada and the tariffs become a way for him to use, you know, public flexing and posturing to get that. Ultimately, if we were to go through a period of time that lasts more than the average length of one of these fake government shutdowns, then obviously it would be very detrimental to markets, to the economy, to stability, to predictability, to buying patterns. And this president doesn't want that. And so that's where my confidence comes from. And then Nick, we're going to have the same conversation in I'm guessing a few months. Around China, he's focusing on Mexico, Canada first because it's a very different and easier to obtain outcome. With China there's a whole bigger picture involving currency, involving technology, involving ip, involving Taiwan, involving Russia, Ukraine, that's a much more holistic policy objective. And he's far more willing to use tariffs there because of course there's already tariffs in place. So he's talking about moving the knobs around those things to get there. Lots going on there. The tariff question continues to be very polarizing and very confusing.
- [25:15]
Nick Eicher
Well David, this is now about a week old story, but last week at this time when the markets opened, we saw a lot of market cap for the chip maker Nvidia just evolved evaporate because of this heretofore virtually unknown AI competitor from China. So what's to be said here David, is this just the sort of soft ground of the early days of artificial intelligence innovation where you've just got to expect the unexpected, where just crazy things are going to happen with this new tech?
- [25:48]
David Bonson
Well, I hate to use our valuable time together to tout my dividendcafe.com, but I was proud of the Dividend Cafe that posted a couple days ago about this very subject. Because I really do think, Nick, that those trying to make it all about China and Deep Seek are missing some of the real story. I think there is a story here. It is entirely possible that China has an AI tool that is generative AI language learning model that maybe can be powered at something far less than the hyper expensive and hyper complex capital expenditures that companies like Microsoft, Google and Meta are pouring into 95% cheaper. I don't know about that. You know, are Americans going to use Chinese AI tools with all of their censorship and state control of course not. So none of this has to do with me playing into the story about China competitiveness? I wouldn't ignore the story. I think that China not being a customer and becoming a competitor has all kinds of implications. But the far bigger story, Nick, is that nobody can answer the question as to whether or not we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on AI expenditures for a good reason. They don't know what the end run is supposed to be. They don't know what the monetizable benefit is going to be. They don't know who the monetizable benefit is going to accrue to. And so to me, there's a wild west right now that has a very big possibility of turning out to be a massive misallocation of capital. Things like deep seat coming out in a given weekend the way it did don't so much show the misallocation as they remind us of the risk of misallocation. And I think there's any number of things look, we are used to with technology. The whole benefit of technology is exponential downward pressure on prices that over time things get cheaper, not more expensive at scale with technology. That's been the point of digital pricing for 50 years. Everybody has assumed these Nvidia chips get more expensive over time, get ordered more over time, and get needed more over time. All three of those things might be false assumptions. And in the meantime, no one else has figured out any way whatsoever to make money on AI except for the people making the chips. So there's a lot of questions here and I do not know how they will play out. But I think about it, watch it, study it, every single day.
- [28:17]
Nick Eicher
David Bonson, founder, managing partner and chief investment officer of the Bonson Group. David writes@dividendcafe.com and regularly for World Opinions. David, I hope you have a great week.
- [28:30]
David Bonson
Thanks so much, Nick.
- [28:30]
Mary Reichardt
You too.
- [28:46]
Nick Eicher
Today is Monday, February. February 3rd. Good morning. This is the world and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Nick Iger.
- [28:54]
Mary Reichardt
And I'm Mary Reichard. Up next, the world history book. 85 years ago, the fight for civil rights and desegregation is in full swing. Four young men protest at a local lunch counter. World's Emma Perley brings us the story.
- [29:20]
Nick Eicher
I certainly wasn't afraid.
- [29:23]
David Bonson
And I wasn't afraid because I was too angry to be afraid.
- [29:29]
Andrew Tutt
That is Frank McCain on February 1, 1960. He's one of four black college students whose peaceful but determined defiance is about to change history. Inside an F.W. woolworth Five and Dime in Greensboro North Carolina. The young men sit down at the store's stainless steel lunch counter and order coffee and a donut. The waitress refuses to serve them, saying that lunch service is for whites only. Just three feet away is a different counter. That's where African Americans are allowed to buy food. An Associated Press reporter overhears the exchange between the waitress and the young men. He asks McCain and his friends what they're going to do. We're going to stay until closing, the freshmen say. Then we're going to come back again and again until the store manager serves us some coffee. At this, an elderly white woman leans toward the young men.
- [30:23]
Nick Eicher
She whispered in a calm voice, boys, I am so proud of you.
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Andrew Tutt
The next day, the Greensboro Four, Joseph McNeil, Azell Blair Jr. David Richman and Franklin McCain, keep their word. But this time more than 20 black students arrive to sit beside them, taking up a third of the counter space. For four hours, from lunchtime until mid afternoon, they sit quietly doing homework, and for four hours the waitstaff refuses to serve them. Here's Joe McNeil with the National Museum of American History.
- [30:57]
David Bonson
We decided that whatever actions we were going to take, they're going to be non violent, and we remain non violent. On the third day, it started to get rough.
- [31:07]
Andrew Tutt
A friend of the four alerts the media and local reporters swarm Woolworth, armed with cameras, mics and pens. The media coverage sparks similar sit ins throughout the south, like in Oklahoma City, Raleigh and Richmond. These protests form the fighting front of the civil rights movement, where many are already participating in bus boycotts from NBC.
- [31:29]
David Bonson
And here, the very young led the.
- [31:30]
Nick Eicher
Assaults on racial barriers. For five years, they persistently demonstrated at lunch counters, department stores and hotels. They won only small concessions.
- [31:40]
Andrew Tutt
The Greensboro four aren't the first ones to stage a sit in. A few months earlier, in late 1959, black students and civil rights activists peacefully sat at whites only lunch counters in Nashville, Tennessee. As the civil rights movement heats up in the early 1960s, sit ins multiply. Many are not as peaceful as activists hope. At some restaurants, mobs form and protesters fear for their lives. Like white civil rights activist Joan Trumpauer Mulholland. In 1963, Mulholland takes a seat at a segregated Woolworth counter in Jackson, Mississippi. Audio from her interview with Eater everyone.
- [32:17]
Mary Reichardt
Shopped at a five and dime.
- [32:19]
Nick Eicher
Everyone could afford it. And to not be welcome as a customer at this one part of the store, the lunch counter that was morally and legally indefensible.
- [32:32]
Andrew Tutt
Mulholland remembers the plan. One group of protesters would form a picket line down the street, diverting police, while another group would take up their posts at the Woolworths counter. But the plan goes downhill fast.
- [32:45]
Nick Eicher
Well, the picket line got arrested right away, so we decided we'd just go down and see what was happening. And basically what was happening was all.
- [32:52]
Mary Reichardt
Hell was breaking loose.
- [32:54]
Andrew Tutt
The mob throws salt, pepper, ketchup and mustard at the protesters while police stand by doing nothing. Worse, a black professor from nearby Tougaloo College is badly beaten. That's what Frank McCain means about things getting rough back in North Carolina. On the third day of their peaceful protest, 60 more students join the Greensboro. Four white customers jeer at them, and the Ku Klux Klan join the hecklers. Some try to drag the young black protesters from their seats. McCain again on CBS.
- [33:26]
Nick Eicher
If I were lucky, I would be.
- [33:29]
Mary Reichardt
Carted off to jail for a long, long time.
- [33:31]
David Bonson
And if I were not so lucky, then I would be going back to my campus in a pine box.
- [33:37]
Andrew Tutt
Police intervene and arrest those doing violence. By February 4, more than 300 protesters cram the lunch counter, and two days later, the crowd swells to 1,000. Then someone calls in a bomb threat. Woolworth quickly shuts its doors and the protesters move to another segregated store across the street, which also closes early. Undaunted, the students continue to sit in for five more months. And the fight for black equality in the city is just beginning. Black citizens unite and completely boycott segregated businesses. In Greensboro, local stores and restaurants lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. This large scale protest puts enormous pressure on business owners to desegregate. Finally, on July 25, 1960, the Greensboro Woolworths store manager crosses the racial barrier into civil rights history. He invites four black employees to change out of their uniforms, sit at the counter, and eat lunch. And so what began with four ends with four. Decades later, McCain still seems surprised at the widespread effect that he and three friends had on the civil rights movement.
- [34:46]
David Bonson
I'd only sat on a dumb stool.
- [34:49]
Nick Eicher
I hadn't even been served.
- [34:53]
Andrew Tutt
That's this week's world history book. I'm Emma Purley.
- [35:17]
Nick Eicher
Tomorrow, an update on the Israeli hostages who returned home this weekend, including family members, we have highlighted on this program. And the emotional toll that air traffic controllers face day in and day out as they work to keep track, keep travelers safe. That and more tomorrow. I'm Nick Iger.
- [35:36]
Mary Reichardt
And I'm Mary Reichardt. The world and everything in it comes to you from World Radio. World's mission is biblically objective journalism that informs, educates and inspires. Jesus told the disciples it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, well, then, who can be saved? Jesus looked at them and said, with man it is impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God. Verses 25 through 27 of Mark, chapter 10 go now in grace and peace.