The Hill - The World and Everything In It

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Additional support comes from Watersedge. These investments build more than buildings. They give churches the resources needed to thrive, offering 4.6% APY on a 15 month term or 3.6% APY on demand. Watersedge.com invest welcome to DoubleTake. I'm Les Sillers. I believe in miracles in theory. I affirm in the abstract that there is a spiritual realm beyond our physical senses. And I accept in principle that angels and demons exist. But there's a difference between knowing that something is true on an intellectual level and knowing it from experience. That's a good thing. God designed us to live in this fallen world as spiritual and physical beings. For now, we're bound to the material universe, to things we can see and touch. That's how we experience reality the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, Jesus commends those who have not seen and yet have believed in him. And the apostle Paul reminds us to walk by faith and not by sight. That is, we are to live in the material world, knowing that God exists and knowing that there's so much that we can't know or experience with our senses. But one day we will. Today on Double Take World's Mary Jackson has a story about a man named Joe Infranco, whose understanding of reality gets a sudden shock. It involves a young man named Cody, whose perception of the material world is uncertain and his ability to communicate is severely limited. But Joe believes that these limitations have opened Cody and many others like him up to something special, allowed at least some of them access to the spiritual realm in a way that the rest of us cannot. And that from all over the world, they meet and talk to Jesus at a place known only as the Hill. Is this for real? We don't know. But we hope that this episode will remind us all of a few things. That the spiritual realm exists, that it's real even if we can't see or touch it now. And. And that we need scripture to sort through what is and isn't true. Here's Mary.
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It's already heating up. At 8am on a Sunday morning in Scottsdale, Arizona, Joe and Franco is pacing the sprawling campus of Highlands Church.
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I'm instinctively going the wrong place.
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He's a pastor of adult education, one of our elders.
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Over here.
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How are you? How's everything? Every few seconds, Joe stops and greets someone warmly. He's Italian, with white hair and a New York accent. Before moving to Scottsdale, Joe spent 25 years as a trial attorney in New York, arguing religious liberty cases. For 18 more years, he was vice president and senior counsel for the conservative legal group Alliance Defending Freedom. Some of his cases went all the way to the U.S. supreme Court. When Joe retired from legal work in 2020, he moved from elder to pastor at Highlands. That's when an unlikely group of congregants transformed his life trajectory and his beliefs about the spiritual world. A tall wrought iron gate surrounds the entrance to Highlands special needs ministry room. On a given Sunday, nearly 100 adults and children participate. When we popped in, Steve Richards, the adult education teacher, was just getting started with that day's Bible lesson. For years, Joe knew many of the participants in the special needs ministry by name. He'd give them fist bumps on Sundays. But he says he made a common mistake, talking down to them, thinking they understood very little. That all changed a few years ago with Cody. Neil, good morning. How are you guys? That's Cody. He's humming. It's a little hard to hear Cody clearly on this recording. Here he is in a different interview. And back at the church. This is Kody's mom, Glorie.
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Good morning.
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Cody is 24 and stands 6 foot 5, 255 pounds with short brown hair and a trimmed beard. Today, he and Gloria are greeting people in the church lobby.
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Hi, Debbie.
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Hi, Cody. Cody has severe autism. Although he can talk a little, usually with the hum, he's considered non speaking. But about three years ago, Cody's parents learned about a method called spelling to communicate. A trained aide holds up a laminate or plastic Alphabet board. The non speaker touches the letters to spell out words. This is Cody. The hope is that the non speaker progresses to the point where he can spell independently. The method goes by other names. Assisted spelling, Rapid prompting method. Speller's method facilitated communication. It may not sound controversial, but it is. I'll get to that later. His parents, Matt and Glory, were elated when Cody could finally express his thoughts when they saw that he has a complex internal life. Now Matt regrets playing Elmo videos over and over for Cody. He thought his son liked them because while they played, Cody repeatedly called out elmo when they realized he's more intelligent than they thought.
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I looked at him and I said, cody, I'm not going to ask your forgiveness. I, I did not know that's not an excuse. But I didn't talk to you like you were your age and talked to you at a much younger age and I'll never forget it. He types out, of course I'll forgive you, dad. How would you have known?
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And I'm thinking Cody's parents believe he was learning to read and spell all along. They say he absorbed more than they realized from school and from seeing how words are spelled everywhere. He simply lacked the motor skills to demonstrate that knowledge. What's even more bizarre is when Cody first started spelling. He described seeing angels and demons in the room, sometimes fighting each other with weapons that surprised them. And he brought up other strange spiritual phenomena. At night, in his sleep, he told his parents he sometimes meets with other spellers and Jesus in a place he called the Hill. It's a peaceful place with lots of grass and flowers. Matt and Glory didn't know what to make of all this. Matt is an elder at Highlands and has served alongside Joe for years. Two nights before I visit Highlands Church, I go to the Neisel's home. Cody is spelling with Glory. She's sitting to his right, holding the laminate board out in front of him. I'm almost touching him. My chair is next to his, to his left. Joe is sitting behind Cody with Matt.
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Here we go.
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What are we reading about?
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World War II.
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Do you like World War II? Yes or no? Glory reads from a scripted lesson about the role of the Soviet Union in World War II. Cody answers the questions with short responses, maybe one or two words. He seems a bit nervous or restless. Sometimes when he pokes the wrong letter, I watch him press the red X to delete and start again. Glory gently prods him. After E is you got it, Cody? I, R. And then after R and eastern, Suddenly Cody brings up demons.
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Demons.
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I watch his fingers tap Y, E, S. The demons are here.
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Do you want to stop? You want to pray? Cody wouldn't doubt they're here with him. Yeah.
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Want us to pray?
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Okay.
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Father God, we just come to you right now.
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Cody seems agitated and uncomfortable as his dad prays, but he is calm and ready to resume spelling by the time he finishes.
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Is that better, buddy?
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Are they gone? You can spot on the board. Are they gone now?
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I stumbled into this world when a friend recommended a blockbuster podcast called the Telepathy Tapes. It aired in 2024. For a short period, the podcast was more popular than the Joe Rogan experience. The host of the Telepathy Tapes is Kai Dickens.
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Welcome to the very first episode of the Telepathy Tapes where she explores whether
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individuals with non speaking autism have telepathic abilities. The podcast delves into all kinds of strange claims, like whether non speaking autistic kids commune with the dead, understand foreign languages telepathically, or predict disasters. Episode 7 features Joe, Cody and his parents.
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And then I met A minister named Joe. Joe had to go through his own process of confirming both the legitimacy of spelling and the reality of spiritual gifts being shared by the non speakers. Before he could believe either, Joe described
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for Dickens how he first learned about the Hill.
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So when the conversation with the non speakers at Joe's church started to breach things that were seemingly impossible, Joe believed them. And the other day, Kody was on a zoom call with another speller named Josiah who lived in Minnesota.
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It was the first time they met. The connection between them is just amazing. It's like they know each other. They're commenting on gifts about each other. And Josiah made this interesting reference. Come and join us on the Hill sometime.
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Dickens notes that Joe thinks he's sharing a shocking revelation. But she's already heard about the Hill from lots of other spellers via their aides.
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Well, it's like, okay, what's going on here? So today we asked Cody, do you know what Josiah meant about the Hill? Yes. It's a place where people with autism were able to gather, and we can visit there with others with autism. It's a time they're not encumbered by their bodies. Somehow. He knew exactly what Josiah was talking about. Cody added further, the spelling facility.
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It's really not clear what the Hill is, but some of those interviewed in the telepathy tapes describe it in very similar ways. A place in the spiritual realm where they connect with each other and other entities. Many Christians would see significant danger here, especially when children are speaking with spiritual beings of uncertain origin. Joe says he's a Christian who holds the Bible to be absolute truth. He has some possible explanations for how to reconcile this with scripture, and we'll get to those a bit later. But those explanations were left out of the telepathy tapes. That isn't surprising. Joe says Dickens was more interested in interpreting all this through the lens of New Age spirituality. There's a lot of talk of collective consciousness to which non speakers somehow have access to process. But the telepathy tapes opened up a whole new world for Joe. The trial lawyer in him realized he had more explaining to do. Joe has since appeared on numerous faith based podcasts. Pro life activist Lila Rose, who leads Live Action, introduced Joe on her show earlier this year.
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If people knew what you have to share, it would transform the way that we see people with disabilities, people with autism, and the spiritual realm in the soul.
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Also, about a year ago, Joe was on.
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All right, welcome back to Blurry Creatures.
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It's a show about all kinds of weird spiritual phenomena. Host Nate Henry described how autistic kids,
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nonverbal kids, can telepathically communicate with someone
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they love, like their parent or, you
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know, other crazy phenomena, other people.
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And they meet even at this place called the Hill. Joe started a ministry with Cody's parents called Hidden Gifts. He also wrote a book. It's called Decoding Secrets of the Spectrum from People With Autism who see, hear and Smell in the Unseen Realm. In it, he details how he came to believe that Cody could see far more than the rest of us. When I went to Scottsdale, I was still trying to fathom how this could possibly be real. How a non speaking and severely autistic person could suddenly spell out words and sentences, let alone see into the spiritual world and read people's minds. If all this is true, the implications are stunning. About 5 million people in the US have been diagnosed with autism. Over 1.7 million of those are non speaking or minimally speaking. US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr caused a stir when he appointed two autistic non speakers who rely on spelling to his 20 member autism panel. Dickens certainly thinks it's real.
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Spelling is the greatest hope parents have to unlock their kids, and it's also the sharpest weapon used against them.
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That's because the scientific consensus is that autistic spellers have no special abilities. Spelling to communicate is a version of facilitated communication. It's been around since the 1970s in Australia, gaining traction in the US in the 1980s and 90s. Bronwyn Hemsley is the head of Speech Pathology at the University of Technology Sydney in Australia.
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What if the words you thought were your loved ones weren't their words at all? This devastating scenario is what some parents and families face when their sons or daughters are being exposed to facilitated communication. Also called FC for short, Rapid Prompting Spelling to Communicate Spellers method. But by whichever name is used, the risks are inherently the same.
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She emailed me her latest study that affirms long standing positions from leading scientific organizations like the American Speech Language Hearing association and the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here she is on the university's Speech Pathology podcast.
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Once hailed as a breakthrough for people who are non speaking or have complex communication needs, facilitated communication has since been discredited by the scientific community. But despite the ongoing lack of evidence, it continues to be used in schools, homes and support services around the world.
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Hemsley notes that there's no evidence that the person holding the board for the non speaker is not influencing the messages. Daniel Engbar, senior editor at the Atlantic Science Desk, has followed the controversy around facilitated communication for decades. He said on a recent Atlantic podcast that facilitators might not feel like they're influencing the process, but they are. Facilitators already have an answer. So the sense that the speller is providing it is just an illusion.
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Okay, if it is the case, if you're facilitating me and the messages that are coming out are actually you are subconsciously writing those messages yourself, at some point you might think, hey, wait a second, Dan just spelled something that was in my head, right?
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Researchers call it the ideometer effect. It's a psychological phenomenon in which the person holding the board unknowingly guides letter selections with subconscious muscle movements or inadvertent cues. According to Hemsley and other researchers, those cues can be impossible for AIDS to avoid and observers to detect. The idea is not new.
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At the beginning of the 20th century, a horse in Germany rose to fame as he knew how to count, add, multiply and divide. This created a stir throughout Europe, and people could not believe how impressive it was.
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This is an episode of Animals Animal Weist, an educational channel on YouTube. The horse was named Clever Hans. His owner, Wilhelm von Osten, would pose an arithmetic question such as 7 times 2. Clever Hans would kick his hoof 14 times. When members of the public asked mathematical questions, Clever Hans answered those correctly, too. A commission investigated the phenomenon. One psychologist discovered Clever Hans only knew the answers his owner also knew. Even when the owner was removed, the horse knew the answer only if the questioner knew it.
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The reality is that Clever Hans did not know how to count, but was an expert at reading the body language of others.
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Researchers have found that's generally true with people as well. Autistic people produce correct answers in these sorts of experiments only if the facilitator knows them already. And non speakers are especially vulnerable to bad actors, manipulation and other forms of persuasion, or even abuse.
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Welcome back. It is April 1st, the start of Autism Acceptance Month.
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On NBC's Today Show. Earlier this year, co host Jenna Bush Hager introduced her book club pick. It is Upward Bound by Woody Brown. It's the often untold story of life with a disability. 28 year old Brown is autistic and non speaking. He uses a letter board to communicate with help from his mom, Mary. He graduated high school, then received an English degree at the University of California, Los Angeles, then a master's degree in writing from Columbia University. Next, he wrote a novel and dedicated it to his mom. It's now a New York Times bestseller. We came to realize that he had
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real potential for a productive and Happy life.
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That's Woody's mom, Mary. But many viewers noticed a major problem. When the camera zooms in on the letters Woody points to on the letterboard Woody taps does not match up with what his mother reads aloud. To see that we have inner lives and dreams like anyone else. If you slow the video down to 1/4 speed, it appears that Woody is spelling gibberish. I never thought there could be a life like this. The debacle illustrates the concerns over how much control the person holding the board may have over the speller. To the broader world, the words Cody spells on the letterboard are still not reliably his own. I had all this in mind as I sat next to Cody during multiple spelling sessions in Scottsdale. I watched whether his eyes stayed on the board, if they veered off Glory, his mom, or Marissa, his spelling practitioner seemed attuned and gently corrected him. I watched his finger movements and was mostly able to follow each letter forming each word. To me, it looked genuine. I didn't see Glory, Matt or Marissa touch him or move the board in any way that could be perceived as cueing. I wondered if I was missing something. Joe has sat in on dozens, if not hundreds of spelling sessions. Surely as a trial lawyer, Joe of all people would have noticed some kind of subtle cueing. But no, he is staking his whole reputation on this.
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Ready? Uncross your legs, please.
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That's Cody, spelling practitioner Marissa. This time, Cody is touching letters on a plastic board so his tapping is inaudible again. I'm sitting to his left. Marissa is to his right, holding the board right out in front of him. She asks that we use a pseudonym because of the controversy surrounding spelling. Gloria sits behind Marissa, typing out a transcript. Matt, Joe and Marissa's husband, sit facing Cody. After Cody taps out a few words or phrases, Marissa reads them aloud and then Cody repeats them after her, usually as she's still speaking. It's a slow, tedious process with long silences between each word. So we edited this recording down to just Marissa and Cody's voices to keep it moving. To be clear. It sounds like Cody is just repeating what Marissa says. But he's already typed out the words that Marissa is saying.
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People won't believe it.
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Cody is worried that people won't believe him. When Joe's book about him comes out.
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God wants us to share it. The enemy does not.
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Cody spells out that he wants the focus on God. Then I ask him about the hill. He says the hill is not heaven.
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The hill is not heaven. It is a meeting place. We Go to. To be together. Be together and with Jesus. I love going to the hill. I am free of autism there and I am my true self.
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Thank you.
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I asked Cody how often he goes to the hill.
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Cody, eyes on the board.
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Eyes on the board.
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I go a lot. Whenever I can. I can. It depends. It depend on.
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The room is silent. We're hanging on every word.
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Plans, plan hard to explain.
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Matt asked Cody if he gets called to the hill or if he just go. That's all Cody shares about the hill. Marissa knows the feeling of being on the hill.
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I would never say I went to the hill.
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At least Cody said she does.
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I had a very vivid dream. It's been years. It felt like in the dream I was in the presence of Jesus. It was unexplainable feeling of peace, love, joy that I did not want to leave. It was not long. We did not exchange any words. He was sitting on a rock on a grassy hill. It felt like there were people around, but that it was just me and Jesus.
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Sometime afterward, Marissa shared it with her husband.
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And I can remember even after, like, laying in bed going, oh, I hope I have that dream again.
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Two years later, during a spelling session out of nowhere, Cody brought up Marissa's dream. He implied she'd already been to the hill. Marissa was stunned. How could he possibly have known that?
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I sat for a minute and I was shocked. And then I did. I did think. I do think at that point. I said I had. I had this dream and. And he. I think Cody spelled. It wasn't a dream.
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Later on, Joe admits he doesn't understand it fully. He says it's a heavenlike place, but not heaven. He says Cody and others describe it as a place with grassy hills and flowers. Cody has said he shares the gospel with other spellers there. Joe often has conversations via spelling with non speakers at Highlands and online about the spiritual world. He points them to what scripture says. Joe wonders whether the hill is related to what Paul calls the third heaven in 2 Corinthians.
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And he says something to the effect that he saw things that are not lawful to speak of. And it's interesting. I rechecked the Greek on that recently. And the idea is it's not unlawful, like I'm not allowed to do it, like it would break the law to do it. The idea leans more toward. It would be like an injustice to try to explain something that I can't possibly describe. So I think there may be some elements of that in play too.
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Joe says he understands why Christians would have serious Doubts about the experiences the non speakers are having. They seem otherworldly and scripture strictly prohibits anything connected to the occult. But he notes that the Bible also includes a few accounts that seem similar to the hill. When Moses and Elijah appeared along with Jesus to the disciples, for example. For the non speakers, it's a place
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where they fellowship with each other, but also they get assignments. They are interceding for the world. Jesus gives them work to do. And I've had a few say to me there's a code of some sort that they're not allowed to speak about things on the hill. But how do you even understand the hill? The best I have in my mind is it's something like a suburb of heaven that's just a placeholder.
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I ask him why unbelievers would be there then.
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Well, the few things I've heard on it. And again, I don't want to draw conclusions where we can't know.
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Joe says he measures the speller's experiences against scripture using some key questions.
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Okay, what's the fruit of this? By their fruits you will know them. What's the story promoting? Is the story glorifying God as a testimony, testifying of Jesus? Is the story pointing to an individual? Is it raising questions about God? Is it creating doubt? So, you know, we try to.
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He admits that some spellers encounter beings who question God's goodness. So he works through that with them.
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Okay, what's the difference between conviction and condemnation? Did it make. Did it draw you closer to God? Did it push you away, make you feel unworthy? Did it make you doubt God? Yeah, it did. Okay, who asks questions to make us doubt God? How about we'll start in the Garden of Eden? Has God really said, you know, and so we'll go through those things and they, they get it quickly.
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Until Cody started spelling, his dad, Matt didn't believe that God still performs miracles today. He was a cessationist. Matt says he has no categories for Cody's accounts of the spiritual realm and the hill. Cody calls it the hilltop.
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He's been going since he was little. He says, that's where I met all my friends.
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I have so many questions. What does he do on the hill? Do non believing, non speaking, autistic people come to know Jesus on the hill?
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He says they do on the hill.
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Matt is talking about what Cody has said via spelling here.
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I don't know the names, he hasn't told me, but he said that they do come to Christ because that was a question I had. I go non Christians on Hill. What do they do with Jesus?
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According to Matt, Cody said that Jesus pulls the blinders off of them and they can see him for who he is. I'm struck by Matt's confidence in everything Cody spells about the hill.
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To believe in the hill and what they're saying, you got to understand. They're all over the country. They don't have phones, they don't communicate with each other. They're all saying the same exact things about the hill, what's being said and what they're seeing. And it's all the same. You couldn't put that together, you know.
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Matt and Glory also describe instances where Cody seems to see and know things he couldn't have known. So my mom passed away in 2013 from Alzheimer's. She was at home and slowly getting worse. She sometimes would open her eyes. We'd be over there a lot. So that's what Cody saw. And she'd be asleep and then maybe she'd open her eyes up. Cody was 12 at the time. The night Gloria's mother passed, Cody was in the other room. Right before she passed away, she lifted up her head and looked toward the ceiling. Her eyes were darting back and forth. Then she lay down. Minutes later, Cody skipped into the room. He was looking at his grandmother, waving and saying, bye, Grandma. See you in heaven. They were shocked that he spoke in complete sentences, but. But beyond that, how did he know? Because she still looks like she's sleeping. So I wondered. I always kept that in the back of my mind and I. During one spelling session ten years later, Gloria decided to ask Cody about it. And he said, I saw Jesus and the angels come to get her. I know you were sad, but she was so happy. Still, instances like this are few and far between. Gloria and Matt don't like the word telepathy. They prefer to think of instances where Cody has seemed to know something as examples of special gifts the Lord has given him. Not telepathic powers. For example, the Neisels keep Cody on a strict diet to help regulate his behavior. They lock up anything with dairy or gluten because he'd eat it all if he could get at it. If he was telepathic, he'd read his parents mind to get the code, but he doesn't seem to know it. And other autistic non speakers at Highlands Church have similar experiences via spelling.
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Pam, let me introduce you to.
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Oh, hi Grace. Hi. Pam Foster is the mother of Morgan. He's 11 years old and non speaking with autism. We are standing at the back of the special Needs classroom at Highlands where classes started. It's loud. Morgan has been spelling for three years. Due to valid questions about the authenticity of spelling, most parents and spelling practitioners avoid talking about these kinds of things altogether. They don't want to hurt efforts to make spelling more readily available. But Pam is very open. She says spelling confirmed her son's faith for her. Once his spelling practitioner asked if he's a Christian.
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And I thought he would just say yes. And he spelled to him, I am his son, and to me he is my king. And the things he said really indicated a very deep personal relationship with Jesus. And that's what, that's what struck me. It wasn't so much what he was seeing, although that's part of it. But what was more important to me was that I'm like, this kid has a deep relationship, relationship with the Lord.
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His spelling practitioner asked him what he wanted to do for the Lord. Morgan said he wanted to be baptized like Cody. Morgan described seeing the spiritual realm, angels, demons, the hill, and Jesus.
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It was shocking at first. What scared me a little bit was when he said, I see demons too. And he said, the demons scare me. He kept saying, I'm so relieved. Believed you believe me. When he started talking about the angels and demons and this and that, he didn't think we would believe him. And I'm like, why would you think that we wouldn't believe you? And then it makes me think, I wonder if the demons say that or something.
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Foster told me Morgan has only said a little about the hill, but his non speaking friend is spelled about being there with Morgan. That friend has known things about Morgan that Pam says she has no idea how else he would know, such as his favorite TV show. Another friend texted Pam the other day and said his son, who is also nonverbal, spelled out that he talks to Morgan on the hill.
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My feeling is that it's not, you know, it's not like magical or it's more, God doesn't make us to live in isolation. He's given them the opportunity to have a community.
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Pam also dislikes likes the word telepathy. She listened to the telepathy tapes podcast, but only because she heard Joe was featured. Then she got to wondering.
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So then I started listening and I was like, okay. And then I, I, I was like, I wonder if Morgan, you know, so I just, I, and I don't really want to develop that pattern. I don't want him to think, to read my mind or anything. But I tested him a little bit. I said, morgan, I, I just I'm
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thinking of a number, she said to him, she got us board, the number was 12. But he wanted to show her how smart he is.
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She says, so instead of just spelling out the number, he gave it to me in an equation. So like I was thinking of 12 and he's like 15 minus 3, you know.
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Pam said she tried it a few more times with words. She'd think of a word and Morgan would spell the word. But then she stopped.
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So I haven't done anything like that since because I don't want to do that with him. But I just, I don't want him to think it's like a trick or something. But I, I just told him I understand and I said, I'm going to help you.
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Back at the Neisel home, I asked Joe about his decision to assume a role akin to a trial attorney for spellers and what they claim to see in the spiritual realm.
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My wiring was always more toward relationships and wanting to help people. You know, when I started doing these cases, they attract a lot of attention and I was very thin skinned and I was always worried, oh, how will I look about this or that.
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He's no longer so concerned. He understands believing the spellers is a big leap, let alone believing they have unique abilities and insight and the Hill actually exists. He says people expect him to provide answers, but he can't just yet.
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I think it's, it's hard for us to draw conclusions about the Hill. We're still gathering data on that one.
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When it comes to an active spiritual realm that we can't see or explain, he's more confident he'll ask a room full of people, how many of you
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have had an experience you can't account for? The telephone rang and you were thinking of, you know, Aunt Betty and it was Betty on the phone. Every hand in the room goes up. Everybody's had some kind of encounter and they realize, okay, there were times and ways. Whether someone wants to ascribe it to powers of the mind or other dimensional thinking or spiritual gifts. Everybody realizes there's something there. They realize it experientially, but what happens is because it's not normative, they stuff it away.
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B
Joe says it's not so far fetched for him to believe that Cody and other autistic non speakers are likely more attuned to the spiritual world. They have far fewer distractions. I wonder what this must be like.
[37:36]
D
I see the spiritual world, Mary. I see angels and demons.
[37:44]
B
That's Marissa reading out words as Cody taps letters on the board. As we mentioned, Cody has already tapped the words that Marissa reads. Then Cody repeats them after her.
[37:57]
D
I don't like seeing demons and love seeing angels. They're both here now. Do you want to tell us more about that?
[38:17]
B
He spells out that Marissa's angel is
[38:20]
D
here and there are. Two more. Two more and three demons. Three demons.
[38:31]
B
Cody goes on to spell that there's a demon between his dad Matt and a family friend and one next to me. There's a demon by Marissa, but an angel on her waiting to fight when God says to I asked Cody if he always sees angels and demons.
[38:52]
D
Yes, everywhere,
[38:59]
B
And why does he think we can't see them?
[39:02]
D
No, no. I have thoughts, but not certain.
[39:13]
B
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, leaned forward. At one point, Cody pauses, eyes fixed on the board and taps you believe me. Mary Mary.
[39:34]
A
Mary Jackson reported and wrote this episode and I produced it. I'm Les Sillers. As always, I'd encourage you to check out wng.org for more great news and commentary and don't forget to rate and review us on your podcast app. Please do recommend this program to any of your friends and family if you get a chance, and we'd really love to hear what you think of our program. Send a note, written or recorded, to editorng.org One last thing, a correction on our series the Edge of Accountability. This is from Ali Sanders of Montgomery, Texas.
[40:09]
B
Hi, thank you for doing the story on child transgender procedure. I just wanted to correct one thing that he said about the hormones making a boy's voice higher and that is incorrect. And the testosterone will make a girl's voice deeper. But estrogen does not have effect on a boy or a man's voice. They have to actually create their own feminine voice because the hormones do not have an effect in that way. They will prevent their voice from deepening if they start taking the hormones when they're young enough. But any kind of female voice, that's something that they have to create on their own. Thank you.
[40:50]
A
I'm Les Sillers. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Additional support comes from watersedge 4.6% apy on 15 month term or 3.6% apy on demand. Watersedge.com investor.

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: The World and Everything In It – "The Hill" (August 8, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode of The World and Everything In It, produced by WORLD Radio, delves into the mysterious and controversial phenomenon of nonverbal autistic individuals who, through a method called "spelling to communicate," claim to have access to spiritual realities—particularly a spiritual meeting place referred to as "the Hill." The show explores the experiences of Cody, a severely autistic nonverbal young man, and how his family, church, and supporters interpret his accounts of seeing angels, demons, and Jesus—raising profound questions about miracles, spiritual perception, and the limits of both scientific and theological understanding.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Faith, Experience, and the Spiritual Realm

Host Les Sillers opens the episode pondering the distinction between intellectual belief in the spiritual realm and experiential knowledge, setting up the focus of today's story about Joe Infranco and Cody, a nonverbal autistic man.
- Quote: “There’s a difference between knowing that something is true on an intellectual level and knowing it from experience.” — Les Sillers [00:45]
The core theme: How do people come to grips with spiritual realities that transcend ordinary perception—especially when communicated by those with limited conventional communication?

2. Meet Joe Infranco & Cody

Joe, a former trial attorney and religious liberty expert, is now a pastor. His worldview was transformed by interactions with special needs congregants, especially Cody.
Cody, aged 24, with severe autism, began communicating more fully through “spelling to communicate”—using a letter board with assistance from a trained facilitator.
This method, though controversial, allowed Cody to reveal a rich inner life and unexpected spiritual experiences, notably mentioning angels, demons, and a recurring spiritual place: "the Hill."
- Quote: “He typed out, ‘Of course I’ll forgive you, Dad. How would you have known?’” — Matt, Cody’s father, recalling an apology [06:18]

3. The Hill: A Shared Spiritual Reality

Cody and other nonverbal spellers describe a peaceful spiritual meeting place called the Hill, inhabited by Jesus and peers.
- Quote: “It’s a place where people with autism are able to gather… and we can visit there with others with autism. It’s a time they’re not encumbered by their bodies.” — Joe [11:20]
Descriptions of the Hill are remarkably similar across geographically distant nonverbal autistic people, with no apparent prior communication.
These descriptions went public through the podcast The Telepathy Tapes, sparking debate across faith and scientific communities.

4. Scientific Controversy Around Facilitated Communication

Experts like Bronwyn Hemsley (University of Technology Sydney) and Daniel Engbar (The Atlantic) assert facilitated communication lacks scientific backing. Key concerns involve the ideomotor effect—facilitators may unconsciously influence responses.
- Quote: “Once hailed as a breakthrough… facilitated communication has since been discredited by the scientific community.” — Bronwyn Hemsley [15:59]
Skeptics liken the phenomenon to the "Clever Hans" effect, where cues—conscious or unconscious—shape responses. A recent TV segment even showed clear mismatches between letterboard spelling and what was being read aloud.

5. Personal Conviction & Theological Context

Despite skepticism, reporter Mary testifies to the apparent genuineness of Cody’s spelling sessions, finding no evidence of cueing.
Joe is profoundly convinced by his experience (“He is staking his whole reputation on this.” [21:03]), but acknowledges unanswered questions.
Theologically, Joe measures these phenomena against Scripture, emphasizing the fruits and whether they glorify God or align with biblical revelation.
- Quote: “What’s the fruit of this? By their fruits you will know them… We try to [use] that as a guide.” — Joe [27:58]

6. Other Testimonies and Family Experiences

Other parents at Highlands Church report similar patterns; for example, Morgan, another nonverbal boy, relayed deep theological insights via spelling, mentioning the Hill and spiritual beings.
- Quote: “I am his son, and to me he is my king.” — Morgan, via letterboard, when asked about his faith [32:47]
Some parents report telepathic-like phenomena (e.g., spelling words or numbers "thought" by the adult), though they are wary of framing it in New Age or telepathy terms, preferring to see it as special spiritual gifts.

7. Skepticism and Caution

Even among believers, there is awareness of potential for error or spiritual deception. Joe is careful to check experiences against Scripture and asks probing questions about their fruit and source.
- Quote: "Did it draw you closer to God? Did it push you away, make you feel unworthy? Did it make you doubt God? Who asks questions to make us doubt God?" — Joe [28:26]
The narrative closes without definitive answers, balancing faith, skepticism, and mystery.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On confronting assumptions:
“I did not know… I didn’t talk to you like you were your age… He typed out, ‘Of course I’ll forgive you, Dad. How would you have known?’” — Matt and Cody [06:09–06:26]
On the Hill’s nature:
"The Hill is not heaven. It is a meeting place… to be together and with Jesus. I love going to the Hill. I am free of autism there and I am my true self." — Cody, via spelling [22:52–23:24]
On shared experience:
“To believe in the Hill and what they’re saying, you got to understand… they’re all over the country. They don’t have phones, they don’t communicate… It’s all the same.” — Matt [29:53]
On theological assessment:
“What’s the fruit of this… By their fruits you will know them… Is the story glorifying God? Is it raising questions about God?” — Joe [27:58–28:19]
On enduring mystery:
“I think it’s hard for us to draw conclusions about the Hill. We’re still gathering data on that one.” — Joe [36:20]

Important Timestamps

00:45–02:31: Opening reflections — faith, experience, and spiritual reality (Les Sillers)
02:40–07:00: Introduction to Joe Infranco, Cody, and spelling to communicate
08:44–09:42: Cody spells about seeing demons in real-time; group prays [08:44–09:42]
10:28–11:47: The Hill explained and its significance to the autistic community
15:15–16:50: Scientific critiques of facilitated communication (Bronwyn Hemsley, Daniel Engbar)
21:25–24:05: Cody describes the Hill and what it means to him through spelling
27:11–28:26: Joe discusses the theological implications of the Hill
29:16–30:12: Parents’ testimony about Cody’s spiritual knowledge and the Hill’s evangelistic impact
32:47–33:29: Morgan’s mother recounts her son's spiritual insights and vision of the Hill
35:35–37:19: Joe on taking up the role of advocate for spellers and uncertain conclusions
37:35–39:33: Cody spells out his experiences of seeing angels and demons, closes with “you believe me, Mary” [39:12–39:33]

Conclusion

This episode thoughtfully interweaves testimony, skepticism, theology, and science to explore the profound spiritual claims made by nonverbal autistic individuals and their families through facilitated communication. While the veracity of these experiences remains deeply controversial, host Mary Jackson and the WORLD team present the accounts with empathy, open inquiry, and an insistence on biblical discernment—leaving listeners with more questions than answers, yet encouraging deeper consideration of both human and spiritual mystery.

For further reading and follow-ups: Visit wng.org for more news, analysis, and related commentary.

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Transcript133 lines

[00:00]
A
Additional support comes from Watersedge. These investments build more than buildings. They give churches the resources needed to thrive, offering 4.6% APY on a 15 month term or 3.6% APY on demand. Watersedge.com invest welcome to DoubleTake. I'm Les Sillers. I believe in miracles in theory. I affirm in the abstract that there is a spiritual realm beyond our physical senses. And I accept in principle that angels and demons exist. But there's a difference between knowing that something is true on an intellectual level and knowing it from experience. That's a good thing. God designed us to live in this fallen world as spiritual and physical beings. For now, we're bound to the material universe, to things we can see and touch. That's how we experience reality the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, Jesus commends those who have not seen and yet have believed in him. And the apostle Paul reminds us to walk by faith and not by sight. That is, we are to live in the material world, knowing that God exists and knowing that there's so much that we can't know or experience with our senses. But one day we will. Today on Double Take World's Mary Jackson has a story about a man named Joe Infranco, whose understanding of reality gets a sudden shock. It involves a young man named Cody, whose perception of the material world is uncertain and his ability to communicate is severely limited. But Joe believes that these limitations have opened Cody and many others like him up to something special, allowed at least some of them access to the spiritual realm in a way that the rest of us cannot. And that from all over the world, they meet and talk to Jesus at a place known only as the Hill. Is this for real? We don't know. But we hope that this episode will remind us all of a few things. That the spiritual realm exists, that it's real even if we can't see or touch it now. And. And that we need scripture to sort through what is and isn't true. Here's Mary.
[02:31]
B
It's already heating up. At 8am on a Sunday morning in Scottsdale, Arizona, Joe and Franco is pacing the sprawling campus of Highlands Church.
[02:41]
C
I'm instinctively going the wrong place.
[02:43]
B
He's a pastor of adult education, one of our elders.
[02:46]
C
Over here.
[02:47]
B
How are you? How's everything? Every few seconds, Joe stops and greets someone warmly. He's Italian, with white hair and a New York accent. Before moving to Scottsdale, Joe spent 25 years as a trial attorney in New York, arguing religious liberty cases. For 18 more years, he was vice president and senior counsel for the conservative legal group Alliance Defending Freedom. Some of his cases went all the way to the U.S. supreme Court. When Joe retired from legal work in 2020, he moved from elder to pastor at Highlands. That's when an unlikely group of congregants transformed his life trajectory and his beliefs about the spiritual world. A tall wrought iron gate surrounds the entrance to Highlands special needs ministry room. On a given Sunday, nearly 100 adults and children participate. When we popped in, Steve Richards, the adult education teacher, was just getting started with that day's Bible lesson. For years, Joe knew many of the participants in the special needs ministry by name. He'd give them fist bumps on Sundays. But he says he made a common mistake, talking down to them, thinking they understood very little. That all changed a few years ago with Cody. Neil, good morning. How are you guys? That's Cody. He's humming. It's a little hard to hear Cody clearly on this recording. Here he is in a different interview. And back at the church. This is Kody's mom, Glorie.
[04:37]
D
Good morning.
[04:39]
B
Cody is 24 and stands 6 foot 5, 255 pounds with short brown hair and a trimmed beard. Today, he and Gloria are greeting people in the church lobby.
[04:51]
D
Hi, Debbie.
[04:55]
B
Hi, Cody. Cody has severe autism. Although he can talk a little, usually with the hum, he's considered non speaking. But about three years ago, Cody's parents learned about a method called spelling to communicate. A trained aide holds up a laminate or plastic Alphabet board. The non speaker touches the letters to spell out words. This is Cody. The hope is that the non speaker progresses to the point where he can spell independently. The method goes by other names. Assisted spelling, Rapid prompting method. Speller's method facilitated communication. It may not sound controversial, but it is. I'll get to that later. His parents, Matt and Glory, were elated when Cody could finally express his thoughts when they saw that he has a complex internal life. Now Matt regrets playing Elmo videos over and over for Cody. He thought his son liked them because while they played, Cody repeatedly called out elmo when they realized he's more intelligent than they thought.
[06:10]
E
I looked at him and I said, cody, I'm not going to ask your forgiveness. I, I did not know that's not an excuse. But I didn't talk to you like you were your age and talked to you at a much younger age and I'll never forget it. He types out, of course I'll forgive you, dad. How would you have known?
[06:27]
B
And I'm thinking Cody's parents believe he was learning to read and spell all along. They say he absorbed more than they realized from school and from seeing how words are spelled everywhere. He simply lacked the motor skills to demonstrate that knowledge. What's even more bizarre is when Cody first started spelling. He described seeing angels and demons in the room, sometimes fighting each other with weapons that surprised them. And he brought up other strange spiritual phenomena. At night, in his sleep, he told his parents he sometimes meets with other spellers and Jesus in a place he called the Hill. It's a peaceful place with lots of grass and flowers. Matt and Glory didn't know what to make of all this. Matt is an elder at Highlands and has served alongside Joe for years. Two nights before I visit Highlands Church, I go to the Neisel's home. Cody is spelling with Glory. She's sitting to his right, holding the laminate board out in front of him. I'm almost touching him. My chair is next to his, to his left. Joe is sitting behind Cody with Matt.
[07:49]
F
Here we go.
[07:50]
B
What are we reading about?
[07:51]
E
World War II.
[07:52]
B
Do you like World War II? Yes or no? Glory reads from a scripted lesson about the role of the Soviet Union in World War II. Cody answers the questions with short responses, maybe one or two words. He seems a bit nervous or restless. Sometimes when he pokes the wrong letter, I watch him press the red X to delete and start again. Glory gently prods him. After E is you got it, Cody? I, R. And then after R and eastern, Suddenly Cody brings up demons.
[08:44]
E
Demons.
[08:54]
B
I watch his fingers tap Y, E, S. The demons are here.
[09:01]
C
Do you want to stop? You want to pray? Cody wouldn't doubt they're here with him. Yeah.
[09:08]
E
Want us to pray?
[09:10]
C
Okay.
[09:12]
E
Father God, we just come to you right now.
[09:14]
B
Cody seems agitated and uncomfortable as his dad prays, but he is calm and ready to resume spelling by the time he finishes.
[09:24]
C
Is that better, buddy?
[09:25]
E
Are they gone? You can spot on the board. Are they gone now?
[09:43]
B
I stumbled into this world when a friend recommended a blockbuster podcast called the Telepathy Tapes. It aired in 2024. For a short period, the podcast was more popular than the Joe Rogan experience. The host of the Telepathy Tapes is Kai Dickens.
[10:01]
G
Welcome to the very first episode of the Telepathy Tapes where she explores whether
[10:06]
B
individuals with non speaking autism have telepathic abilities. The podcast delves into all kinds of strange claims, like whether non speaking autistic kids commune with the dead, understand foreign languages telepathically, or predict disasters. Episode 7 features Joe, Cody and his parents.
[10:29]
G
And then I met A minister named Joe. Joe had to go through his own process of confirming both the legitimacy of spelling and the reality of spiritual gifts being shared by the non speakers. Before he could believe either, Joe described
[10:41]
B
for Dickens how he first learned about the Hill.
[10:43]
G
So when the conversation with the non speakers at Joe's church started to breach things that were seemingly impossible, Joe believed them. And the other day, Kody was on a zoom call with another speller named Josiah who lived in Minnesota.
[10:56]
C
It was the first time they met. The connection between them is just amazing. It's like they know each other. They're commenting on gifts about each other. And Josiah made this interesting reference. Come and join us on the Hill sometime.
[11:11]
B
Dickens notes that Joe thinks he's sharing a shocking revelation. But she's already heard about the Hill from lots of other spellers via their aides.
[11:20]
C
Well, it's like, okay, what's going on here? So today we asked Cody, do you know what Josiah meant about the Hill? Yes. It's a place where people with autism were able to gather, and we can visit there with others with autism. It's a time they're not encumbered by their bodies. Somehow. He knew exactly what Josiah was talking about. Cody added further, the spelling facility.
[11:47]
B
It's really not clear what the Hill is, but some of those interviewed in the telepathy tapes describe it in very similar ways. A place in the spiritual realm where they connect with each other and other entities. Many Christians would see significant danger here, especially when children are speaking with spiritual beings of uncertain origin. Joe says he's a Christian who holds the Bible to be absolute truth. He has some possible explanations for how to reconcile this with scripture, and we'll get to those a bit later. But those explanations were left out of the telepathy tapes. That isn't surprising. Joe says Dickens was more interested in interpreting all this through the lens of New Age spirituality. There's a lot of talk of collective consciousness to which non speakers somehow have access to process. But the telepathy tapes opened up a whole new world for Joe. The trial lawyer in him realized he had more explaining to do. Joe has since appeared on numerous faith based podcasts. Pro life activist Lila Rose, who leads Live Action, introduced Joe on her show earlier this year.
[13:02]
D
If people knew what you have to share, it would transform the way that we see people with disabilities, people with autism, and the spiritual realm in the soul.
[13:10]
B
Also, about a year ago, Joe was on.
[13:12]
G
All right, welcome back to Blurry Creatures.
[13:15]
B
It's a show about all kinds of weird spiritual phenomena. Host Nate Henry described how autistic kids,
[13:21]
G
nonverbal kids, can telepathically communicate with someone
[13:24]
E
they love, like their parent or, you
[13:26]
G
know, other crazy phenomena, other people.
[13:29]
B
And they meet even at this place called the Hill. Joe started a ministry with Cody's parents called Hidden Gifts. He also wrote a book. It's called Decoding Secrets of the Spectrum from People With Autism who see, hear and Smell in the Unseen Realm. In it, he details how he came to believe that Cody could see far more than the rest of us. When I went to Scottsdale, I was still trying to fathom how this could possibly be real. How a non speaking and severely autistic person could suddenly spell out words and sentences, let alone see into the spiritual world and read people's minds. If all this is true, the implications are stunning. About 5 million people in the US have been diagnosed with autism. Over 1.7 million of those are non speaking or minimally speaking. US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr caused a stir when he appointed two autistic non speakers who rely on spelling to his 20 member autism panel. Dickens certainly thinks it's real.
[14:43]
G
Spelling is the greatest hope parents have to unlock their kids, and it's also the sharpest weapon used against them.
[14:50]
B
That's because the scientific consensus is that autistic spellers have no special abilities. Spelling to communicate is a version of facilitated communication. It's been around since the 1970s in Australia, gaining traction in the US in the 1980s and 90s. Bronwyn Hemsley is the head of Speech Pathology at the University of Technology Sydney in Australia.
[15:16]
G
What if the words you thought were your loved ones weren't their words at all? This devastating scenario is what some parents and families face when their sons or daughters are being exposed to facilitated communication. Also called FC for short, Rapid Prompting Spelling to Communicate Spellers method. But by whichever name is used, the risks are inherently the same.
[15:42]
B
She emailed me her latest study that affirms long standing positions from leading scientific organizations like the American Speech Language Hearing association and the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here she is on the university's Speech Pathology podcast.
[15:59]
G
Once hailed as a breakthrough for people who are non speaking or have complex communication needs, facilitated communication has since been discredited by the scientific community. But despite the ongoing lack of evidence, it continues to be used in schools, homes and support services around the world.
[16:20]
B
Hemsley notes that there's no evidence that the person holding the board for the non speaker is not influencing the messages. Daniel Engbar, senior editor at the Atlantic Science Desk, has followed the controversy around facilitated communication for decades. He said on a recent Atlantic podcast that facilitators might not feel like they're influencing the process, but they are. Facilitators already have an answer. So the sense that the speller is providing it is just an illusion.
[16:50]
G
Okay, if it is the case, if you're facilitating me and the messages that are coming out are actually you are subconsciously writing those messages yourself, at some point you might think, hey, wait a second, Dan just spelled something that was in my head, right?
[17:09]
B
Researchers call it the ideometer effect. It's a psychological phenomenon in which the person holding the board unknowingly guides letter selections with subconscious muscle movements or inadvertent cues. According to Hemsley and other researchers, those cues can be impossible for AIDS to avoid and observers to detect. The idea is not new.
[17:34]
G
At the beginning of the 20th century, a horse in Germany rose to fame as he knew how to count, add, multiply and divide. This created a stir throughout Europe, and people could not believe how impressive it was.
[17:46]
B
This is an episode of Animals Animal Weist, an educational channel on YouTube. The horse was named Clever Hans. His owner, Wilhelm von Osten, would pose an arithmetic question such as 7 times 2. Clever Hans would kick his hoof 14 times. When members of the public asked mathematical questions, Clever Hans answered those correctly, too. A commission investigated the phenomenon. One psychologist discovered Clever Hans only knew the answers his owner also knew. Even when the owner was removed, the horse knew the answer only if the questioner knew it.
[18:25]
G
The reality is that Clever Hans did not know how to count, but was an expert at reading the body language of others.
[18:31]
B
Researchers have found that's generally true with people as well. Autistic people produce correct answers in these sorts of experiments only if the facilitator knows them already. And non speakers are especially vulnerable to bad actors, manipulation and other forms of persuasion, or even abuse.
[18:52]
G
Welcome back. It is April 1st, the start of Autism Acceptance Month.
[18:56]
B
On NBC's Today Show. Earlier this year, co host Jenna Bush Hager introduced her book club pick. It is Upward Bound by Woody Brown. It's the often untold story of life with a disability. 28 year old Brown is autistic and non speaking. He uses a letter board to communicate with help from his mom, Mary. He graduated high school, then received an English degree at the University of California, Los Angeles, then a master's degree in writing from Columbia University. Next, he wrote a novel and dedicated it to his mom. It's now a New York Times bestseller. We came to realize that he had
[19:38]
G
real potential for a productive and Happy life.
[19:41]
B
That's Woody's mom, Mary. But many viewers noticed a major problem. When the camera zooms in on the letters Woody points to on the letterboard Woody taps does not match up with what his mother reads aloud. To see that we have inner lives and dreams like anyone else. If you slow the video down to 1/4 speed, it appears that Woody is spelling gibberish. I never thought there could be a life like this. The debacle illustrates the concerns over how much control the person holding the board may have over the speller. To the broader world, the words Cody spells on the letterboard are still not reliably his own. I had all this in mind as I sat next to Cody during multiple spelling sessions in Scottsdale. I watched whether his eyes stayed on the board, if they veered off Glory, his mom, or Marissa, his spelling practitioner seemed attuned and gently corrected him. I watched his finger movements and was mostly able to follow each letter forming each word. To me, it looked genuine. I didn't see Glory, Matt or Marissa touch him or move the board in any way that could be perceived as cueing. I wondered if I was missing something. Joe has sat in on dozens, if not hundreds of spelling sessions. Surely as a trial lawyer, Joe of all people would have noticed some kind of subtle cueing. But no, he is staking his whole reputation on this.
[21:26]
D
Ready? Uncross your legs, please.
[21:31]
B
That's Cody, spelling practitioner Marissa. This time, Cody is touching letters on a plastic board so his tapping is inaudible again. I'm sitting to his left. Marissa is to his right, holding the board right out in front of him. She asks that we use a pseudonym because of the controversy surrounding spelling. Gloria sits behind Marissa, typing out a transcript. Matt, Joe and Marissa's husband, sit facing Cody. After Cody taps out a few words or phrases, Marissa reads them aloud and then Cody repeats them after her, usually as she's still speaking. It's a slow, tedious process with long silences between each word. So we edited this recording down to just Marissa and Cody's voices to keep it moving. To be clear. It sounds like Cody is just repeating what Marissa says. But he's already typed out the words that Marissa is saying.
[22:31]
D
People won't believe it.
[22:33]
B
Cody is worried that people won't believe him. When Joe's book about him comes out.
[22:38]
D
God wants us to share it. The enemy does not.
[22:43]
B
Cody spells out that he wants the focus on God. Then I ask him about the hill. He says the hill is not heaven.
[22:53]
D
The hill is not heaven. It is a meeting place. We Go to. To be together. Be together and with Jesus. I love going to the hill. I am free of autism there and I am my true self.
[23:24]
E
Thank you.
[23:30]
B
I asked Cody how often he goes to the hill.
[23:33]
D
Cody, eyes on the board.
[23:35]
B
Eyes on the board.
[23:38]
D
I go a lot. Whenever I can. I can. It depends. It depend on.
[23:48]
B
The room is silent. We're hanging on every word.
[23:56]
D
Plans, plan hard to explain.
[24:05]
B
Matt asked Cody if he gets called to the hill or if he just go. That's all Cody shares about the hill. Marissa knows the feeling of being on the hill.
[24:23]
D
I would never say I went to the hill.
[24:26]
B
At least Cody said she does.
[24:28]
D
I had a very vivid dream. It's been years. It felt like in the dream I was in the presence of Jesus. It was unexplainable feeling of peace, love, joy that I did not want to leave. It was not long. We did not exchange any words. He was sitting on a rock on a grassy hill. It felt like there were people around, but that it was just me and Jesus.
[24:59]
B
Sometime afterward, Marissa shared it with her husband.
[25:02]
D
And I can remember even after, like, laying in bed going, oh, I hope I have that dream again.
[25:08]
B
Two years later, during a spelling session out of nowhere, Cody brought up Marissa's dream. He implied she'd already been to the hill. Marissa was stunned. How could he possibly have known that?
[25:21]
D
I sat for a minute and I was shocked. And then I did. I did think. I do think at that point. I said I had. I had this dream and. And he. I think Cody spelled. It wasn't a dream.
[25:33]
B
Later on, Joe admits he doesn't understand it fully. He says it's a heavenlike place, but not heaven. He says Cody and others describe it as a place with grassy hills and flowers. Cody has said he shares the gospel with other spellers there. Joe often has conversations via spelling with non speakers at Highlands and online about the spiritual world. He points them to what scripture says. Joe wonders whether the hill is related to what Paul calls the third heaven in 2 Corinthians.
[26:08]
C
And he says something to the effect that he saw things that are not lawful to speak of. And it's interesting. I rechecked the Greek on that recently. And the idea is it's not unlawful, like I'm not allowed to do it, like it would break the law to do it. The idea leans more toward. It would be like an injustice to try to explain something that I can't possibly describe. So I think there may be some elements of that in play too.
[26:42]
B
Joe says he understands why Christians would have serious Doubts about the experiences the non speakers are having. They seem otherworldly and scripture strictly prohibits anything connected to the occult. But he notes that the Bible also includes a few accounts that seem similar to the hill. When Moses and Elijah appeared along with Jesus to the disciples, for example. For the non speakers, it's a place
[27:11]
C
where they fellowship with each other, but also they get assignments. They are interceding for the world. Jesus gives them work to do. And I've had a few say to me there's a code of some sort that they're not allowed to speak about things on the hill. But how do you even understand the hill? The best I have in my mind is it's something like a suburb of heaven that's just a placeholder.
[27:40]
B
I ask him why unbelievers would be there then.
[27:44]
C
Well, the few things I've heard on it. And again, I don't want to draw conclusions where we can't know.
[27:52]
B
Joe says he measures the speller's experiences against scripture using some key questions.
[27:58]
C
Okay, what's the fruit of this? By their fruits you will know them. What's the story promoting? Is the story glorifying God as a testimony, testifying of Jesus? Is the story pointing to an individual? Is it raising questions about God? Is it creating doubt? So, you know, we try to.
[28:20]
B
He admits that some spellers encounter beings who question God's goodness. So he works through that with them.
[28:27]
C
Okay, what's the difference between conviction and condemnation? Did it make. Did it draw you closer to God? Did it push you away, make you feel unworthy? Did it make you doubt God? Yeah, it did. Okay, who asks questions to make us doubt God? How about we'll start in the Garden of Eden? Has God really said, you know, and so we'll go through those things and they, they get it quickly.
[29:00]
B
Until Cody started spelling, his dad, Matt didn't believe that God still performs miracles today. He was a cessationist. Matt says he has no categories for Cody's accounts of the spiritual realm and the hill. Cody calls it the hilltop.
[29:17]
E
He's been going since he was little. He says, that's where I met all my friends.
[29:20]
B
I have so many questions. What does he do on the hill? Do non believing, non speaking, autistic people come to know Jesus on the hill?
[29:29]
E
He says they do on the hill.
[29:31]
B
Matt is talking about what Cody has said via spelling here.
[29:34]
E
I don't know the names, he hasn't told me, but he said that they do come to Christ because that was a question I had. I go non Christians on Hill. What do they do with Jesus?
[29:42]
B
According to Matt, Cody said that Jesus pulls the blinders off of them and they can see him for who he is. I'm struck by Matt's confidence in everything Cody spells about the hill.
[29:54]
E
To believe in the hill and what they're saying, you got to understand. They're all over the country. They don't have phones, they don't communicate with each other. They're all saying the same exact things about the hill, what's being said and what they're seeing. And it's all the same. You couldn't put that together, you know.
[30:12]
B
Matt and Glory also describe instances where Cody seems to see and know things he couldn't have known. So my mom passed away in 2013 from Alzheimer's. She was at home and slowly getting worse. She sometimes would open her eyes. We'd be over there a lot. So that's what Cody saw. And she'd be asleep and then maybe she'd open her eyes up. Cody was 12 at the time. The night Gloria's mother passed, Cody was in the other room. Right before she passed away, she lifted up her head and looked toward the ceiling. Her eyes were darting back and forth. Then she lay down. Minutes later, Cody skipped into the room. He was looking at his grandmother, waving and saying, bye, Grandma. See you in heaven. They were shocked that he spoke in complete sentences, but. But beyond that, how did he know? Because she still looks like she's sleeping. So I wondered. I always kept that in the back of my mind and I. During one spelling session ten years later, Gloria decided to ask Cody about it. And he said, I saw Jesus and the angels come to get her. I know you were sad, but she was so happy. Still, instances like this are few and far between. Gloria and Matt don't like the word telepathy. They prefer to think of instances where Cody has seemed to know something as examples of special gifts the Lord has given him. Not telepathic powers. For example, the Neisels keep Cody on a strict diet to help regulate his behavior. They lock up anything with dairy or gluten because he'd eat it all if he could get at it. If he was telepathic, he'd read his parents mind to get the code, but he doesn't seem to know it. And other autistic non speakers at Highlands Church have similar experiences via spelling.
[32:04]
C
Pam, let me introduce you to.
[32:06]
B
Oh, hi Grace. Hi. Pam Foster is the mother of Morgan. He's 11 years old and non speaking with autism. We are standing at the back of the special Needs classroom at Highlands where classes started. It's loud. Morgan has been spelling for three years. Due to valid questions about the authenticity of spelling, most parents and spelling practitioners avoid talking about these kinds of things altogether. They don't want to hurt efforts to make spelling more readily available. But Pam is very open. She says spelling confirmed her son's faith for her. Once his spelling practitioner asked if he's a Christian.
[32:48]
F
And I thought he would just say yes. And he spelled to him, I am his son, and to me he is my king. And the things he said really indicated a very deep personal relationship with Jesus. And that's what, that's what struck me. It wasn't so much what he was seeing, although that's part of it. But what was more important to me was that I'm like, this kid has a deep relationship, relationship with the Lord.
[33:14]
B
His spelling practitioner asked him what he wanted to do for the Lord. Morgan said he wanted to be baptized like Cody. Morgan described seeing the spiritual realm, angels, demons, the hill, and Jesus.
[33:30]
F
It was shocking at first. What scared me a little bit was when he said, I see demons too. And he said, the demons scare me. He kept saying, I'm so relieved. Believed you believe me. When he started talking about the angels and demons and this and that, he didn't think we would believe him. And I'm like, why would you think that we wouldn't believe you? And then it makes me think, I wonder if the demons say that or something.
[33:53]
B
Foster told me Morgan has only said a little about the hill, but his non speaking friend is spelled about being there with Morgan. That friend has known things about Morgan that Pam says she has no idea how else he would know, such as his favorite TV show. Another friend texted Pam the other day and said his son, who is also nonverbal, spelled out that he talks to Morgan on the hill.
[34:20]
F
My feeling is that it's not, you know, it's not like magical or it's more, God doesn't make us to live in isolation. He's given them the opportunity to have a community.
[34:32]
B
Pam also dislikes likes the word telepathy. She listened to the telepathy tapes podcast, but only because she heard Joe was featured. Then she got to wondering.
[34:43]
F
So then I started listening and I was like, okay. And then I, I, I was like, I wonder if Morgan, you know, so I just, I, and I don't really want to develop that pattern. I don't want him to think, to read my mind or anything. But I tested him a little bit. I said, morgan, I, I just I'm
[34:59]
B
thinking of a number, she said to him, she got us board, the number was 12. But he wanted to show her how smart he is.
[35:07]
F
She says, so instead of just spelling out the number, he gave it to me in an equation. So like I was thinking of 12 and he's like 15 minus 3, you know.
[35:16]
B
Pam said she tried it a few more times with words. She'd think of a word and Morgan would spell the word. But then she stopped.
[35:24]
F
So I haven't done anything like that since because I don't want to do that with him. But I just, I don't want him to think it's like a trick or something. But I, I just told him I understand and I said, I'm going to help you.
[35:36]
B
Back at the Neisel home, I asked Joe about his decision to assume a role akin to a trial attorney for spellers and what they claim to see in the spiritual realm.
[35:46]
C
My wiring was always more toward relationships and wanting to help people. You know, when I started doing these cases, they attract a lot of attention and I was very thin skinned and I was always worried, oh, how will I look about this or that.
[36:04]
B
He's no longer so concerned. He understands believing the spellers is a big leap, let alone believing they have unique abilities and insight and the Hill actually exists. He says people expect him to provide answers, but he can't just yet.
[36:21]
C
I think it's, it's hard for us to draw conclusions about the Hill. We're still gathering data on that one.
[36:27]
B
When it comes to an active spiritual realm that we can't see or explain, he's more confident he'll ask a room full of people, how many of you
[36:36]
C
have had an experience you can't account for? The telephone rang and you were thinking of, you know, Aunt Betty and it was Betty on the phone. Every hand in the room goes up. Everybody's had some kind of encounter and they realize, okay, there were times and ways. Whether someone wants to ascribe it to powers of the mind or other dimensional thinking or spiritual gifts. Everybody realizes there's something there. They realize it experientially, but what happens is because it's not normative, they stuff it away.
[37:20]
B
Joe says it's not so far fetched for him to believe that Cody and other autistic non speakers are likely more attuned to the spiritual world. They have far fewer distractions. I wonder what this must be like.
[37:36]
D
I see the spiritual world, Mary. I see angels and demons.
[37:44]
B
That's Marissa reading out words as Cody taps letters on the board. As we mentioned, Cody has already tapped the words that Marissa reads. Then Cody repeats them after her.
[37:57]
D
I don't like seeing demons and love seeing angels. They're both here now. Do you want to tell us more about that?
[38:17]
B
He spells out that Marissa's angel is
[38:20]
D
here and there are. Two more. Two more and three demons. Three demons.
[38:31]
B
Cody goes on to spell that there's a demon between his dad Matt and a family friend and one next to me. There's a demon by Marissa, but an angel on her waiting to fight when God says to I asked Cody if he always sees angels and demons.
[38:52]
D
Yes, everywhere,
[38:59]
B
And why does he think we can't see them?
[39:02]
D
No, no. I have thoughts, but not certain.
[39:13]
B
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, leaned forward. At one point, Cody pauses, eyes fixed on the board and taps you believe me. Mary Mary.
[39:34]
A
Mary Jackson reported and wrote this episode and I produced it. I'm Les Sillers. As always, I'd encourage you to check out wng.org for more great news and commentary and don't forget to rate and review us on your podcast app. Please do recommend this program to any of your friends and family if you get a chance, and we'd really love to hear what you think of our program. Send a note, written or recorded, to editorng.org One last thing, a correction on our series the Edge of Accountability. This is from Ali Sanders of Montgomery, Texas.
[40:09]
B
Hi, thank you for doing the story on child transgender procedure. I just wanted to correct one thing that he said about the hormones making a boy's voice higher and that is incorrect. And the testosterone will make a girl's voice deeper. But estrogen does not have effect on a boy or a man's voice. They have to actually create their own feminine voice because the hormones do not have an effect in that way. They will prevent their voice from deepening if they start taking the hormones when they're young enough. But any kind of female voice, that's something that they have to create on their own. Thank you.
[40:50]
A
I'm Les Sillers. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Additional support comes from watersedge 4.6% apy on 15 month term or 3.6% apy on demand. Watersedge.com investor.