Podcast Summary: "Culture Saturday: Secularism Losing Its Grip"
Release Date: March 8, 2025
Episode: 3.8.2025 Culture Saturday: Secularism losing its grip
Overview
In this episode of "The World and Everything In It," WORLD Radio hosts Nick Eicher and Myrna Brown, alongside regular guests John Stonestreet and Katie McCoy, engage in a comprehensive panel discussion with Ross Douthat, author and New York Times opinion writer. The focal point of the conversation is Ross's recently released book, "Making a Rational Case for Religious Belief" (also referred to as "Why Everyone Should Be Religious"), which argues for the rationality and necessity of religious belief in the modern secular age.
1. Introduction to the Panel and Book
[00:05] Nick Eicher
Nick introduces the panel, highlighting the participation of John Stonestreet and Katie McCoy alongside himself and Myrna Brown. The discussion centers on Ross Douthat's book, which aims to present a rational argument for religious belief amidst prevailing secular trends.
[00:32] Myrna Brown
Myrna provides additional context, mentioning a review by Francis Beckwith from Baylor University, who praised the book as a "truly a mere Christianity for the 21st century." She underscores the book’s ambition in advocating that "Everyone [should be Religious]," emphasizing the inclusive scope Ross aims for.
2. Ross Douthat's Motivation and Secularism's Vulnerability
[01:47] Myrna Brown
Myrna prompts Ross to discuss his inspiration for writing the book, especially in light of Beckwith's observation about the declining hold of secularism.
[02:11] Ross Douthat
Ross elaborates on the cultural shifts that have undermined secularism's dominance. He notes a "cycle of disillusionment" with both religion and secular optimism, suggesting that the era of "new atheists" like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens has plateaued. Ross points out a resurgence in recognizing the social and psychological benefits of religion, alongside a trend of individualized spiritual experimentation reminiscent of the 1970s. He argues that his book addresses audiences from both these segments, advocating that religious belief is "extremely rational" and aligns with modern scientific understandings of consciousness and the universe.
Notable Quote:
"The case for being religious is extremely rational. It's consonant with much of what modern science has actually revealed about the world." — Ross Douthat [02:50]
3. The Decline and Resurgence of Atheism
[05:42] Nick Eicher
Nick observes recent trends where prominent atheists are distancing themselves from atheist organizations, and figures like Niall Ferguson are converting to Christianity. He asks how these developments relate to Ross's arguments.
[06:08] Ross Douthat
Ross interprets these shifts as evidence against the new atheists' claims that eliminating religion would eradicate irrationality. He argues that debates and polarization persist even without organized religion, often intensifying due to the absence of a metaphysical framework. Regarding conversions, he suggests that individuals like Ferguson seek foundational beliefs about Western civilization's roots in Christianity, highlighting that religious belief need not abandon rationality.
Notable Quote:
"In the absence of a metaphysical frame, these debates get more polarized and sometimes more irrational." — Ross Douthat [06:30]
4. Technological Impact and Secular Failures
[08:45] John Stonestreet
John commends Ross on the book's timing, linking it to recent increases in religiosity amid cultural disillusionment, such as the role of religion in sports figures expressing Christian faith.
[09:49] Ross Douthat
Ross attributes the resurgence of religious interest partly to technological advancements like smartphones, which, despite promises of connectivity, have led to increased anxiety and social isolation. He argues that secularism, which posits no intrinsic meaning or structure, exacerbates these issues by leaving individuals without a metaphysical foundation. Furthermore, Ross critiques the "woke" movement as lacking a metaphysical dimension, likening it to a "revivalist spirit" devoid of spiritual depth and grace.
Notable Quote:
"The combination of technological isolation and secularization is especially toxic for young people." — Ross Douthat [10:15]
5. Intelligent Design vs. Theistic Evolution
[22:03] Myrna Brown
Myrna shifts the discussion to the philosophical aspects of Ross's book, asking about his stance on Intelligent Design versus theistic evolution.
[22:38] Ross Douthat
Ross explains that he intentionally avoided delving deeply into Intelligent Design due to its polarized nature. He expresses sympathy for the perspective that integrates teleology into evolution, suggesting that there might be inherent directional elements within biological processes. However, he remains skeptical of arguments advocating for direct miracles in evolutionary development. Ross also touches on the incompatibility between traditional Christian teachings about the Fall and evolutionary narratives, emphasizing that acknowledging scientific uncertainties should not deter religious belief.
Notable Quote:
"Even if you have doctrinal uncertainty, that's still a bad reason not to be religious." — Ross Douthat [24:15]
6. Cultural Christianity and Its Implications
[17:25] John Stonestreet
John references Ross's previous work, "Bad Religion," discussing how institutional Christianity has evolved into more internally focused, therapeutic versions. He questions whether the rise of "cultural Christianity" is beneficial or if it leads to a hyper-privatized form of faith.
[18:16] Ross Douthat
Ross differentiates between post-Christian secular voids and genuine spiritual searching. He defends cultural Christianity, arguing that practices like singing religious carols reflect Christianity's enduring cultural strength. Additionally, he contends that cultural Christianity can serve as a gateway to deeper belief, cautioning against remaining in a superficial appreciation of religion without embracing its metaphysical truths.
Notable Quote:
"Cultural Christianity absolutely can be a kind of waystation on the way back or into a fuller and deeper belief." — Ross Douthat [18:43]
7. Religious Pluralism and Maintaining Theological Integrity
[35:46] Ross Douthat
Ross addresses the challenges of religious pluralism, advocating for a balanced approach where Christianity is viewed as the core revelation, yet acknowledging that divine experiences can occur outside Christian contexts. He stresses the importance of Christians recognizing the sincerity of other faiths while maintaining the truth of their own beliefs. Ross emphasizes that interfaith dialogue should allow for the possibility that one faith may ultimately be more accurate, reinforcing the necessity of theological integrity without descending into relativism.
Notable Quote:
"The universe is not trying to trick us. The reasons to be religious are there and available to any reasonable person to see." — Ross Douthat [38:20]
[40:32] Ross Douthat
Addressing irreconcilable truth claims between different religions, Ross suggests that one side must be right. He cites C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia to illustrate that, ultimately, divine judgment will discern between true and false worship, underscoring the necessity of maintaining doctrinal clarity in the face of religious diversity.
Notable Quote:
"Somebody's going to be right and somebody's going to be wrong." — Ross Douthat [40:45]
8. Ross Douthat's Personal Faith Journey
[30:42] Nick Eicher
Nick invites Ross to share his personal journey from a Pentecostal background to Catholicism.
[31:21] Ross Douthat
Ross recounts his childhood experience observing his parents transition from Episcopalianism to charismatic Pentecostalism and eventually to Catholicism. He explains his attraction to Catholicism's blend of liturgical tradition and mystical grace, which provided a balance between structured worship and the spiritual depth he witnessed in his parents' experiences. Ross describes himself as leaning towards a traditional yet open understanding of God's multifaceted action in the universe.
Notable Quote:
"Catholicism offered a kind of synthesis... that avoids some of the problems we saw in Pentecostal churches." — Ross Douthat [32:10]
Conclusion
The panel concludes with expressions of gratitude towards Ross for his insights and the book, encouraging listeners to engage with the content and share their thoughts. The discussion underscores the complexity of secularism's decline and the nuanced arguments for the rationality of religious belief in contemporary society.
Closing Remarks by Nick Eicher
Nick thanks the panelists and Ross, inviting listeners to provide feedback on the discussion.
Final Thoughts
Ross Douthat's conversation offers a profound exploration of the current cultural landscape where secularism faces significant challenges. By intertwining philosophical reasoning with contemporary societal trends, Ross provides a compelling case for the rationality and necessity of religious belief today. His insights bridge the gap between traditional religious thought and modern existential questions, making "Making a Rational Case for Religious Belief" a timely contribution to ongoing debates about faith and secularism.