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The World and Everything In It
4.14.25 A religious exemptions Supreme Court case, Trump’s trade war strategy, and the inspiration for Footloose
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- [00:06]
Mary Reichert
Good morning. Religious identity, charity and tax law collide at the US Supreme Court challenging what it means to be religious enough.
- [00:14]
Nick Eicher
The Wisconsin Supreme Court got it wrong when it held that helping the poor can't be religious because secular people help the poor too. By that measure, Mother Teresa might not qualify.
- [00:23]
Kent Covington
That's ahead on Legal Docket. Also today, the Monday money beat, dispatches from the trade war. David Bonson is standing by. And the world history book today, the story of a small town that banned jumping and jiving.
- [00:37]
Eric Rosbach
It was against the law to dance publicly.
- [00:47]
Mary Reichert
It's Monday, April 14th. This is the world and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Mary Reichert.
- [00:54]
Kent Covington
And I'm Nick Eicher. Good morning.
- [00:58]
Mary Reichert
It's time for the news. Here's Kent Covington.
- [01:01]
David Bonson
Some Democrats in Washington are pushing for Congress to challenge President Trump's emergency declaration which allowed him to impose sweeping tariffs. Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren told ABC's this.
- [01:14]
Mary Reichert
Week that will mean we can go back to having actually a real tariff policy. Congress will have its position in place and then we can negotiate where we need to negotiate. But we got to stop this craziness.
- [01:28]
David Bonson
Warren said there is no real tariff policy at the moment, adding that all we have right now is her words, chaos and corruption. But Republican Senator James Lankford said President Trump has a plan and it's working.
- [01:40]
Kent Covington
So many countries have come at the administration and said, remember all those things that we blocked out for a long time, just kidding, we want to be able to actually fix some of those things.
- [01:49]
David Bonson
Now White House adviser Peter Navarro says many countries across the globe have been reaching out to strike new trade agreements. He added, quote, we've got 90 deals in 90 days possibly pending. President Trump last week announced a 90 day pause on most wide ranging tariffs for 90 days, replaced by a 10% tariff on all imports. While the White House says it is making progress on new trade deals with many countries, China is another matter. Both sides are digging in their heels. But Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick says Beijing is finally being taken to task for its many trade abuses.
- [02:25]
Justice Elena Kagan
They are the ones who've been playing hardball all along. You know, President Trump said we have a $1.2 trillion trade deficit. This is the largest trade deficit of any country in human history.
- [02:39]
David Bonson
The Trump administration says the Chinese government has a long history of gaming the trade process, cheating and flat out stealing. The US has hiked up tariffs on China to 145% while Beijing has responded with 125% tariffs on US goods. And speaking of China. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth on Sunday again touted progress on beating back what had been growing Chinese influence at the Panama Canal.
- [03:07]
Nick Eicher
Chinese influence cannot control our own backyard, especially a critical waterway, key terrain like the Panama Canal.
- [03:13]
David Bonson
The U S built canal holds great strategic importance for the United States both commercially and militarily.
- [03:19]
Nick Eicher
Two historic agreements, one with the Panama Canal Authority that our ships, our military vessels and auxiliary vessels will travel first and free through that Panama Canal, exith said.
- [03:31]
David Bonson
The US Also signed a memorandum of understanding with the government in Panama, establishing a robust and growing US Presence there. Russian missiles struck the heart of the Ukrainian city of Sumy as people gathered there to celebrate Palm Sunday. Officials say the strike killed at least 34 people. It was the second deadly large scale attack on Ukraine in just over a week. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is calling for a tough international response. President Trump over the weekend showed frustration with Russia for dragging its heels in peace talks.
- [04:07]
Justice Elena Kagan
There's a point at which you just have to either put up or shut up. We'll see what happens.
- [04:11]
David Bonson
He expressed some muted positivity, saying he thinks it's going to be fine. The president also took questions from reporters aboard Air Force One about nuclear talks with Iran. American and Iranian negotiators gathered in Oman over the weekend for the first round of talks. Trump said so far he believes those talks are going okay, but would not offer much beyond that.
- [04:33]
Justice Elena Kagan
Nothing matters until you get it done.
- [04:35]
Kent Covington
So I don't like talking about it.
- [04:37]
Justice Elena Kagan
But it's going okay. The Iran situation's going pretty good.
- [04:41]
David Bonson
For its part, Iran said the talks were productive, adding that they took place in a calm and positive atmosphere. Mediators in Oman say the two sides are far apart, but added that this is only the beginning and that is normal for this stage. The two sides are expected to meet again next weekend. Police in Pennsylvania say a person is in custody after a suspected arson fire at the governor's mansion. Democratic Governor Josh Shapiro and his family woke up to police banging on his door around 2am Sunday morning to evacuate them as firefighters doused the flames. Police say the fire caused significant damage, but no one was hurt. I'm Kent Covington and straight ahead, how religious does a nonprofit need to be in order to receive religious freedom protections? Plus, the Monday Money beat with economist David Bonson. This is the world and everything in it.
- [05:52]
Mary Reichert
It's the world and everything in it for this 14th day of April 2025. Thanks for listening and good morning. I'm Mary Reichert.
- [06:00]
Kent Covington
And I'm Nick Eichert. Time now for legal docket. A major religious liberty case is now before the U.S. supreme Court. But this one is unusual because most of the time these cases involve religious groups asking the government to respect their religious freedom. Here, though, the dispute is different. The state is claiming that a Catholic charity is not religious enough to qualify for a key legal exemption.
- [06:25]
Mary Reichert
The case involves the state of Wisconsin and a Catholic social services agency, part of the broader Catholic Charities network. This particular agency operates in the Diocese of superior, covering 15,000 square miles of northern Wisconsin. It has served anyone in need, regardless of religious affiliation, for more than 100 years.
- [06:47]
Kent Covington
Bishop James Power leads the diocese. He spoke outside the court. Wisconsin is punishing Catholic Charities Bureau for.
- [06:55]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Following the example of Christian love.
- [06:57]
Kent Covington
We do not help the needy because they are Catholic. We help them because we are Catholic. Catholic Charities paid into the state's unemployment insurance system for decades, but it recently sought a religious exemption so it could participate in a church run plan that's more in alignment with Catholic teaching. Wisconsin law permits that, but restricts it, in the words of the law, to organizations operated primarily for religious purposes. And you might ask, who's to say?
- [07:28]
Mary Reichert
And there's the rub. The state and the Wisconsin Supreme Court both say Catholic Charities doesn't operate primarily for religious purposes. They say feeding the hungry and caring for the disabled is secular work, not religious work, no matter the motivation to do the work.
- [07:46]
Kent Covington
Eric Rosbach is a lawyer with Becket Fund. He represented Catholic Charities in court and he said that the state here has crossed a line.
- [07:54]
Nick Eicher
This case is not complicated. The Wisconsin Supreme Court got it wrong when it interpreted a state law religious exemption to favor what it called typical religious activity. And when it held that helping the poor can't be religious because secular people help the poor too. By that measure, Mother Teresa might not qualify.
- [08:13]
Kent Covington
The justices pointedly questioned each side. Justice Elena Kagan pointing to the danger of the government evaluating religious doctrine.
- [08:22]
Justice Amy Coney Barrett
But it might be a matter of religious doctrine that we don't require people to say the Lord's Prayer with us before we give them soup. I mean, what's problematic about this? I mean, there are lots of hard questions in this area. Vegan restaurants, hospitals, lots of hard questions. But I thought it was pretty fundamental that we don't treat some religions better than other religions. And we certainly don't do it based on the content of the religious doctrine that those religions preach.
- [08:51]
Mary Reichert
Arguing for Wisconsin was Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth. He didn't dispute that charity is an essential part of the Catholic religion, but.
- [09:00]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
When the employee is simply performing the corporal work of mercy without expressing an inculcating religious doctrine. This is the point. This is an anti entanglement statute. And so if they're not expressing an inculcating religious doctrine, they're not going to create the entangling problems.
- [09:15]
Mary Reichert
If that sounds upside down, a US state saying Catholics aren't religious enough to count as religious, you're in good company. Justice Neil Gorsuch thought so too. Here's how he put it.
- [09:27]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Are you going to go, Is Wisconsin going to go around this soup kitchen? You know, you have to go, you have to go to the service before you get your good. They're good to go. But that one, they just invite you to the service after the soup. They're bad. I mean is really, that's the. I would have thought this would entangle the state in religion a whole lot more than a non discrimination rule between religions.
- [09:49]
Kent Covington
So Roth replied that some ministries outright worship and proselytize. That would be an exception because those things express and inculcate what the state must avoid. But Catholic Charities isn't like that. Again, Justice Gorsuch, with Roth caught in a misunderstanding pointed out by Justice Amy Coney Barrett.
- [10:09]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Really? There are no nuns and priests and deacons at the soup kitchen?
- [10:13]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
I'm not saying that at all, your honor. But if they are not when they, when they are delivered, the bishop, you.
- [10:19]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Know who's overseeing it. Come on.
- [10:21]
Kent Covington
Right.
- [10:21]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
Your honor, it's not about who are, who the employees are, are.
- [10:24]
Mary Reichert
You said they were.
- [10:25]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
It's about what they do.
- [10:26]
Mary Reichert
You said ministerial exception. It was about who they are.
- [10:28]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
Well, sure, yeah, but I apologize.
- [10:31]
Kent Covington
The justices grappled with how to draw lines between a church and an affiliated ministry. Justice Clarence Thomas if the function is.
- [10:40]
Justice Elena Kagan
Exactly the same, but it's a separate entity, what's the difference religiously?
- [10:46]
Mary Reichert
Roth answered that churches get special exemptions, but separate incorporated ministries might not, depending upon what they do. That set off alarms in several justices. Justice Brett Kavanaugh addressed the lawyer for Catholic Charities Eric Rosbach. Kavanaugh wondered what might be a limiting principle to distinguish religiosity from non religiosity?
- [11:09]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Sincerity is one limit.
- [11:11]
Nick Eicher
I, I would say.
- [11:12]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
What else? Is there any other limit to the church?
- [11:14]
Nick Eicher
I would say that's probably the main limit. Limit is, is it sincere?
- [11:18]
Kent Covington
Is it the only limit?
- [11:19]
Nick Eicher
Well, I would say also religiosity, but in the sense of religion versus philosophy. So this is the thing that actually comes up in the Yoder case.
- [11:27]
Mary Reichert
Okay, pardon me. Hold that thought. The Yoder case needs a quick footnote that was a 1972 decision where the court said the Amish could not be forced to send their kids to high school because their objection was a sincere religious belief and not just a personal philosophy. Counsel, back to you.
- [11:47]
Nick Eicher
So this is the thing that actually comes up in the Yoder case, where the court makes a big distinction between what the Amish were doing and what Henry David Thoreau was doing. And it said, well, you know, there's special solicitude under the First Amendment for religion, and the Amish get that. But Thoreau doesn't, even though he felt very strongly about his opinions.
- [12:07]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Thank you.
- [12:07]
Mary Reichert
Their First Amendment rights outweighed the state's interest in compelling school attendance beyond that. So Rosbach's point is a much bigger question the court should consider in this.
- [12:18]
Nick Eicher
Case, and it's a fascinating one. I think if you go back even to, like the Virginia Declaration of Rights, you know, it says the duty which we owe to our Creator and the means of discharging it. And then Professor McConnell, you know, sort of extended that a little bit more broadly to just this idea of transcendent binding truth. Because the problem that comes up in these issues for the religion and the law, and why it is important what religion is for the law is conflicting obligations. So if you go to Madison's memorial and remonstrance, you see there's this conflicting between the obligations of God and the obligations of the government. And Madison says you have to navigate that. So I think that I think you have to be able to see that things are religious or not, because you look at whether there's a transcendent truth at it.
- [13:04]
Kent Covington
Chief Justice John Roberts asked Roth for Wisconsin. What would Catholic Charities have to do differently in order to qualify?
- [13:11]
Nick Eicher
What is the simplest thing that the Catholic Charities would have to do to qualify for the religious exemption in Wisconsin? I think, should they have one sign in the dining hall saying, this meal provided by Catholic Charities? If you want to find out about the church, here's a brochure.
- [13:28]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
No, you, Honor, I think we're looking for activities that express and inculcate religious doctrine, worship, proselytization, religious education. And it's precisely because it's those activities that create the entangling problem.
- [13:41]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
What is proselytization?
- [13:43]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
Proselytization would mean when the, if Catholic Charities, when it's delivering services, says, you know, please repent, essentially repent.
- [13:52]
Kent Covington
In other words, just being Catholic isn't sufficient. An organization has to act religious enough according to the state. Justice Gorsuch bore down again.
- [14:02]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
Repent they have to say, repent anything. Like, you know, please join our religion. We would like you to become Catholic if you're going to receive this service. Because when. Sorry, your honor.
- [14:11]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
So, so they have. They have to say, I just want to know what the test is. So repent your sins. You get the exemption. Not requiring you to repent your sins, you don't. I guess you don't get the exception.
- [14:24]
Assistant Attorney General Colin Roth
No, the, the.
- [14:25]
Eric Rosbach
Or.
- [14:25]
David Bonson
Or.
- [14:26]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
What was the other one? What was your other test for proselytization? Join our church, become a member, as opposed to, we welcome you to attend our services. If you want. Here's some information about them. What's the line there?
- [14:40]
Kent Covington
One friend of the court brief echoed the worries the justices expressed that Wisconsin's test invites intrusive government inquiry into theology. That's something the First Amendment was designed to prevent.
- [14:53]
Mary Reichert
More than 40 states have similar religious exemption laws as Wisconsin, as does federal law. So however the court decides, it will set a wide precedent. If Catholic Charities prevails, religious groups that express faith via service could gain more protection from taxation. If Wisconsin wins, then the government will nose into the inner workings of religious systems and decide what it thinks is religious or not religious enough.
- [15:21]
Kent Covington
All right, one more quick case. And if you think the justices had the legal teams there needing to loosen their ties, well, this one is way worse. So imagine being one of the top lawyers in the country standing before the U.S. supreme Court, and then suddenly you realize mid argument you've boxed yourself in, you've painted yourself into a legal corner. So you try to change strategy right there in real time while the Justices are watching.
- [15:50]
Mary Reichert
That's what happened to Carter Phillips in a case called CC Davis vs. Antrix. It's a half a billion dollar international dispute that hinges on a narrow but powerful exception in US Law. The case began when India canceled a satellite contract with Davis, an Indian media startup. Davis won big in international arbitration and then came to US Courts to collect.
- [16:13]
Kent Covington
Now, that's permitted under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities act, the fsia, if the foreign government agreed to arb. But India argued the case doesn't belong in US Courts for the simple reason that there is no US Connection. The companies are Indian. The contract was carried out in India. The arbitration happened in India. No minimum contacts, as the legal term goes.
- [16:38]
Mary Reichert
But now to that dramatic moment. Carter Phillips had originally conceded that the FSIA arbitration exception did apply. But during oral argument, he tried to walk it back, and Justice Kagan called him on it.
- [16:52]
Justice Amy Coney Barrett
Have you given up on that?
- [16:54]
Justice Elena Kagan
I have given up on that. You, Honor.
- [16:55]
Justice Amy Coney Barrett
So why isn't it the right thing to do? Just to say everybody agrees that the Ninth Circuit was wrong. We toss it back to the Ninth Circuit for everything else.
- [17:03]
Kent Covington
Phillips backtracked a bit, asking the high court to rehear the case with a requisite touch of respectful humor.
- [17:11]
Mary Reichert
And now you'll hear what is a lawyer's nightmare. An exchange that makes me happy. I just report on these things rather than be reported on. Yikes.
- [17:22]
Justice Elena Kagan
And look, if the court, if the court thought I think the court, rather than remanding, if you take my argument seriously, which I think you have to, then you ought to ask the case, you know, reset the case for argument. Re brief that issue and we'll argue that preferably next month because it's fresh in my mind. I'd rather not have to renew all of this stuff. We'll put that. But that's for you all to decide. This is not lint on a sweater that you can knock off and move away. This is attached to the fabric of the sweater through 13.
- [17:53]
Mary Reichert
And there you have it, a top tier lawyer trying to pick off a bit of lint, only to realize he's tugging at the hem, proving that even the best can get snagged, especially with complex laws and hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. The justices seemed inclined to let that thread alone, siding narrowly with Davis and holding that the arbitration exception applies no matter how little US Fabric is in this particular garment. And that's this week's legal docket.
- [18:31]
David Bonson
Additional support, our support comes from Ambassadors Impact Network, helping purpose driven entrepreneurs explore financing options that align with their values. More@ambassadorsimpact.com and from Pensacola Christian College, Academic Excellence, Biblical Worldview. Affordable Cost. Go pcci. Edu World.
- [19:05]
Mary Reichert
Coming up next on the World and everything in it, the Monday Money beat.
- [19:11]
Kent Covington
Time now to talk business, markets and the economy with financial analyst and advisor David Bonson. David heads up the wealth management firm, the Bonson Group. He is here now and. Good morning, David. I'm glad you're here.
- [19:23]
Justice Elena Kagan
Good morning, Nick. Good to be with you.
- [19:25]
Kent Covington
Well, hey, you have already made it abundantly clear in your writing, David, that last week's tariff reversal was not some carefully laid out strategy. You see it as reactive instead. So what was it that convinced you this 11th hour pivot was not part of a long term game plan?
- [19:44]
Justice Elena Kagan
Well, for one thing, there was the President of the United States saying that he did it because he could see that people were getting queasy. And what was the other word he used? Yippee. And so the President is the one who has denied that it was part of a master plan. My own contacts in both the Treasury Department and the National Economic Council deny that it was part of a master plan. And the Occam's razor of the whole thing, the simplicity of this, make very clear that it was a reaction to what was happening in markets, what was happening in the economy, and ultimately the advice he was getting from some people who I think are better advisors than the people he had been getting advice from previously.
- [20:32]
Kent Covington
All right, David, let's talk about the bond market, because some are saying that bonds and not stocks were what applied the real pressure last week. And you suggested this wasn't exactly the case. What's happening in the bond market and what do you think it tells us?
- [20:49]
Justice Elena Kagan
Well, I'm not convinced that what was happening in the bond market was necessarily pushing it, but because, remember, he made this announcement on Wednesday morning, and my belief through the middle of the week was that that investors were having to sell even their safe assets to raise cash because risk assets had dropped so much. Nick, this is something you and I talked about actually in our very first few few sessions we ever did together back in March of 2020 that we got to reminisce about a couple weeks ago. When you have to sell, you sell what you can sell, not what you want to sell. And Treasuries are a very saleable asset for leveraged financial actors. Think of hedge funds and large global players that way. Okay, so that was still, I think, the simplest explanation, that there were just people having to go to the treasury market to sell more liquid assets as everything else had been dropping so quickly. But by the end of the week, and as we're sitting here talking, getting ready to go into a new week, I do have questions as to what's going on, because it persisted through the remainder of the week. The bond market didn't crash. It just stayed up there around a 4.5% yield. And it looks to me that there was some foreign investors lightly selling. And I say lightly because they're not a huge portion of the bond market. You know, we have $36 trillion of national debt. That basically means 36 trillion of bonds. And Canada owns total 300 billion of them. You know, Japan owns a decent chunk around a trillion. China owes less than a trillion. I mean, it isn't a huge percentage, but we're foreign investors selling treasury bonds. And is that explain why the Canadian dollar, the yen, the euro were all appreciating against the dollar last week? I suspect Some of that was happening. But I really do need this week, Nick, to get a better feel for what's going on. I think a lot of the story last week in the bond market was misunderstood by the media. You know, you probably hear me say that a lot, but I think it is important for financial markets and I think that it played in to the story. I just don't think it drove the story.
- [23:10]
Kent Covington
Okay, so that leaves China now, those tariffs still sky high even if we have backed off the global trade fight. You've said this is not necessarily a recession trigger, but could be, could still be what makes the China peace different?
- [23:28]
Justice Elena Kagan
Well, it's the pure size of it. And then again, you have to remember that since the Dividend Cafe was written on Friday, the President announced over the weekend that he's exempting all smartphones, semiconductors, computers, electronics. So the largest things in terms of American life that we get from China are now excluded from this. And yet, of course, small business businesses and Factories that employ 60 people in America are still paying tariffs on their imports. The reason that the China thing is such a big deal is not because the tariff is so high. The tariff at any level above 50%, there's not going to be trade with China. So the President exempted all these key things because obviously they don't really believe that the tariffs are going to create revenue and are this wonderful thing for American jobs. I think that they're petrified of what the impact would be. And there's no greater example of what needs exemption than the most popular successful consumer product in world history, the iPhone. And so it puts the President in the really difficult position politically of exempting multi trillion dollar companies like Apple and Nvidia and now Samsung, but not exempting all the mom and pop shops that make textiles and, you know, widgets and things like that. So you're talking about a country that is the second largest economic power in the world and the first largest economic power in the world not trading with one another. That won't last. And it already hasn't lasted because they've exempted the major products that are relevant here. And that took just a couple days. Where we go from here, we'll see. That is not something I can predict how it will play out. But I don't really believe it's a big stretch to say that the President is quite eager to make a deal.
- [25:24]
Kent Covington
All right, well, hey, before we get going, David, while all of that was going on last week, the House quietly passed a tax reform framework. Just barely, but it was enough to keep it alive. You have called this a heartbeat and not a solution. Is that a thing that markets are watching yet or do you think that they will soon?
- [25:45]
Justice Elena Kagan
Yes, especially if the trade war issue is more and more subsiding, which it isn't over yet. But if it goes from being 100% of the story down to 70% of the story, that frees up 30% of room to care about something else in markets. And this is a huge story, Nick. It's a huge story politically and economically. Speaker Johnson continues to rack up victories that really, apart from these victories, could leave the whole thing dead. And yet just because he gets another victory, it doesn't mean the thing is over. He still has to move on to the next. But each little battle along the way could be fatal. And he's surviving them. And then now the hard part is for some of the fiscal hawks, which if I were in Congress, I'd be one of them, they voted for the framework, but they voted for the framework based on promises that have to get delivered on in conference. Where are they going to negotiate the specifics of these spending cuts? And those promises made to fiscal hawks in the House go against promises made to some of the senators who voted for their framework. So they have wood to chop. It's not over, but they've allowed it to move forward to a place that it can get passed by Memorial Day. There's still not a lot of margin for error, but I really believe this is a very big story.
- [27:06]
Kent Covington
All right. David Bonson is founder, managing partner and chief investment officer of the Bonson Group. David Wrights at World opinions and@dividendcafe.com David, thanks so much. We'll catch you next week.
- [27:20]
Justice Elena Kagan
Thanks so much, Nick.
- [27:45]
Kent Covington
Today is Monday, April 14th. Good morning. This is the WORLD and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Nick Eicher.
- [27:53]
Mary Reichert
And I'm Mary Reichard. Up next, the world history book. The year 1980. In a town with a ban on dancing and a group of determined teens ready to shake it up, here's World's Emma Eicher.
- [28:10]
Emma Eicher
There's a new kid in town. The town is tiny Elmore City, Oklahoma. And the new kid, Leonard Coffey, he just moved from a much bigger city. For a kid named Coffey in a sleepy town, he's like a shot of espresso, flashy clothes, unafraid to buck the norms, an outsized personality in the junior high class. And one day he asks a question that changes everything.
- [28:31]
Eric Rosbach
Why don't y'all dance here?
- [28:33]
Emma Eicher
Lisa Rawlings was a sophomore at the time.
- [28:35]
Eric Rosbach
You know, he just thought that was weird that we didn't have a prom.
- [28:38]
Emma Eicher
As Rawlings told me the story, she remembered that there was really nothing weird about it because back in 1980, nobody's allowed to dance publicly in Elmore City. If that sounds familiar, it's probably because it's the plot of the 1984 hit movie Footloose, starring Kevin Bacon.
- [28:54]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
There was a time for this law, but not anymore. See, this is our time to dance.
- [28:58]
Emma Eicher
The movie takes plenty of artistic liberties, but the basic story really did happen. The president of the school board at the time was Raymond Temple. He gave an interview to a promotional website for the community called Chickasaw Country.
- [29:10]
Justice Elena Kagan
And they asked me, why can't we have a prom like other schools do? And I just, I don't see why not now.
- [29:22]
Emma Eicher
Juniors and seniors from Elmore City High are begging him to let them have a prom. His daughter Maryann is junior class president and she's leading the charge. She and Lisa Rawlings are friends.
- [29:32]
Eric Rosbach
It was the whole entire class getting behind the whole idea of asking for a prom.
- [29:38]
Emma Eicher
Rawlings sent me an old school photo of her 15 year old self. She has a bob haircut, bangs, thick glasses, and even though it seemed normal to her not to have a prom, she didn't know why. Nobody knows why. So her friend Maryann gets to the bottom of it.
- [29:53]
Eric Rosbach
That's when she told me that, you know, that it was against the law to dance.
- [29:57]
Emma Eicher
Lisa can't believe it. So she asked her dad, he's the mayor, so he would know.
- [30:02]
Eric Rosbach
I said, dad, I said, is it against the law to dance? He said, let me check on it for you, you know. So he checked the ordinance book at city hall and sure enough, it was on the books that it was against the law to dance publicly.
- [30:17]
Emma Eicher
The city ordinance banning public dancing goes back to the 19th century. The city fathers believed dancing could lead to sin. And in 1980, almost all of Elmore City's church leaders think so too.
- [30:28]
Eric Rosbach
Me and Maryann both went to the Methodist church, and our pastor was the only pastor in our town who was supportive of the kids at the time.
- [30:37]
Emma Eicher
But Freddie Johnson, pastor of the nearby Pentecostal Church, not so much. Here he is in an interview with KOCO 5 News, Oklahoma City.
- [30:46]
Justice Elena Kagan
The beat of music, the curves of the body, the display of the outward person, we don't believe is congruent with the principles of Bible doctrine especially.
- [30:57]
Emma Eicher
But the kids are determined and a lot of parents and faculty are too. The school board President sees the prom as a better alternative to how the kids usually send. Every year they just let the kids.
- [31:08]
Eric Rosbach
Go and they would either go to Lindsay or go out and drink and party in a pasture somewhere.
- [31:14]
Emma Eicher
Hundreds of townspeople show up at a school board meeting to hear the fate of the prom. Four of the five members are split right down the middle until Temple cast the tie breaking vote. It was, it was tear jerking, you.
- [31:26]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
Know when, when it got to dad.
- [31:28]
Justice Elena Kagan
And there was two and two and dad said let them dance.
- [31:33]
Justice Neil Gorsuch
It was one of those moments that was iconic.
- [31:36]
Emma Eicher
The day of the dance, April 18, 1980. Rawlings and her classmates start decorating the school. But they're mindful that some kids might have a moral objection. So they offer the option to play ping pong in a nearby game room. The night begins at 7:00 sharp. News crews line the sidewalks and jostle each other inside. They shoulder big cameras and tape electrical cords to the floor. They've been following the town's unusual events and broadcasting them to the rest of the country. Here's how KOCO 5 covered it.
- [32:04]
Kent Covington
Boys in rented tuxes.
- [32:06]
David Bonson
All the familiar earmarks of a high school prom.
- [32:09]
Kent Covington
A traditional piece of Americana just about everywhere except here.
- [32:13]
Emma Eicher
The kids sit down for dinner first. Chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes and gravy. Green beans, bread rolls and strawberry shortcake for dessert. Everyone wolfs it down, eager for the night to start.
- [32:25]
Eric Rosbach
I think everybody was just wanting to get through that first part of the night just so we could get to the prom part.
- [32:33]
Emma Eicher
The students cram into the bathrooms to put on their dancing shoes. Literally.
- [32:37]
Eric Rosbach
We changed into hard jeans and boots or whatever it was we were going to dance in.
- [32:41]
Emma Eicher
By 9pm everyone is awkwardly crowded around the edge of the dance floor. The DJ who drove down from Oklahoma City plays a famous rock anthem by Led Zeppelin.
- [32:52]
Eric Rosbach
And I don't know how anybody dances to that song, but that's what we started off with.
- [32:57]
Emma Eicher
At first no one is brave enough to step out.
- [33:00]
Eric Rosbach
I think we were feeling very self conscious because not a lot of us knew how to dance.
- [33:05]
Emma Eicher
But then the DJ switches to Michael Jackson. That's when everyone seems to gather some courage.
- [33:15]
Eric Rosbach
We were like, okay, we can do this. You know, you'd go just grab somebody off the wall and dance couples take.
- [33:21]
Emma Eicher
Each other's hands and groups of people gather in circles.
- [33:24]
Eric Rosbach
We didn't know any rules when it came to dancing and so I'm sure we broke a lot of them, but we just had fun.
- [33:31]
Emma Eicher
At one point, Rawlings takes a peek inside the game room.
- [33:34]
Eric Rosbach
There was nobody out in the game room. They were all in the prom area.
- [33:39]
Emma Eicher
The dancing finally ends around midnight. It was the first prom most of the students had, and it wouldn't be the last. The old city ordinance disappears after 1984. Rawlings thinks Elmore city residents have softened a bit. Nowadays, nobody seems to have a problem with dancing. She says the town started an annual Footloose Festival 15 years ago. Next Saturday, we'll celebrate the 45th anniversary of the prom.
- [34:05]
Eric Rosbach
I mean, I just turned 60 this last year and it's probably the most exciting, exciting thing, fun thing that's ever happened in my life. I have very, very fond memories of it. And just the whole night was just. It was like a dream.
- [34:21]
Emma Eicher
That's this week's world history Book. I'm Emma Eich.
- [34:41]
Kent Covington
Tomorrow, sugary drinks could start disappearing from government food programs. It's part of a growing push toward healthier, taxpayer funded nutrition. And you'll meet the scientists who are listening to the land, literally tuning in to the health of our soil one subtle sound at a time. That and more tomorrow. I'm Nick Iger.
- [35:00]
Mary Reichert
And hello. And I'm Mary Reichardt. The world and everything in it comes to you from World Radio. World's mission is biblically objective journalism that informs, educates and inspires. The Bible records the Apostle Paul speaking to the elders at Ephesus. In all things. I have shown you that by working hard in this way, we must help the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. Verse 35 of Acts, chapter 20. Go now in grace and peace.