← The World and Everything In It
The World and Everything In It
4.18.25 Culture Friday on misgendering, the enduring qualities of Pinocchio, and Good Friday meditations
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- [00:06]
Myrna Brown
Good morning. Today on Culture Friday, the UK Supreme Court affirms reality. Colorado moves to punish it. And Saturday Night Live makes a joke of it.
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Nick Iker
John Stonestreet is standing by. Also today, Pinocchio represents kind of an.
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Kent Covington
All time pinnacle in the craft of making animated films.
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Nick Iker
The Disney Classic turns 85. We will have a fresh look. And for Good Friday, a Christian author reflects on the crucifixion through the eyes of silent idolatry.
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John Stonestreet
If we could get down to the depths of the disillusionment, maybe we would more greatly respond to the heights of the resurrection.
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Myrna Brown
It's Good Friday, April 18th. This is the world and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Myrna Brown.
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Nick Iker
And I'm Nick Icker. Good morning.
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Myrna Brown
Up next, Kent Covington with today's news.
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Kent Covington
President Trump is taking a very active role in talking trade with world leaders. On Thursday, he welcomed a key European ally to the White House.
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John Stonestreet
She's a very special person and it's.
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Christina Grube
Nice to have you with us.
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John Stonestreet
Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thank you for your warm welcome.
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Kent Covington
Italian Premier Giorgio Meloni heard there after a private lunch meeting with the president. The two leaders discussed a range of topics. Betrayed was the main thing. Meloni, of course, talked about US Trade with Italy, but she also in many ways represented the European Union.
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John Stonestreet
The goal for me is to make.
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Max Bell
The west great again.
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John Stonestreet
Okay.
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Myrna Brown
And I think we can do it together.
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Kent Covington
Trump said he's fully confident that the US Will reach a new trade deal with the eu but he suggested he feels no sense of urgency to get it done.
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John Stonestreet
We're going to have very little problem making a deal with Europe or anybody else because we have something that everybody wants. You know what that means, right? We have something that everybody wants.
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Kent Covington
That something presumably being open access to the US Market, the biggest consumer base in the world. But Trump's tariffs have plenty of critics. The head of the International Monetary Fund, Kristalina Georgieva, said Thursday she believes US Tariffs will slow global economic growth.
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John Stonestreet
But we will also see markups to the inflation forecasts for some countries. We will caution that protracted high uncertainty raises the risk of financial market stress.
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Kent Covington
The White House says the US has been treated very unfairly on trade and that a reboot of the global trade system is necessary. But Georgieva says that reboot is testing the resilience of the global economy. Her remarks come one day after Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell also said Trump's tariffs could fuel inflation. And he added that the Fed will wait to see how the tariffs affect the economy before lowering interest rates further. The president is not happy with any of that. He accused Powell of playing politics with his remarks, something Powell strongly denies.
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Nick Iker
We're never going to be influenced by any political pressure. People can say whatever they want, that's fine, that's not a problem. But we will do what we do.
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Kent Covington
President Trump, though, said he believes Powell has been too slow to act on interest rate changes and may no longer be the right man for the job. But there is a legal question as to whether the president can fire the Fed chairman. Powell said this week that his legal understanding we're not removable except for cause.
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Nick Iker
We serve very long terms.
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Kent Covington
The president, though, may be set to test that legal interpretation. The Wall Street Journal reports that Trump is now eyeing former Fed Governor Kevin Warsh to replace Powell. The U.S. supreme Court will hear oral arguments next month regarding the president's executive order on birthright citizenship. World's Christina Grube has more.
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Nick Iker
On his first day back in the Oval Office, President Trump signed an order that he says aims to clarify the 14th Amendment.
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John Stonestreet
This next order relates to the definition.
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Nick Iker
Of birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment.
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John Stonestreet
Of the United States. That's a good one. Birthright.
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Nick Iker
This order asserts that children born in the US Are not automatically citizens unless at least one parent is a US Citizen or lawful permanent residential. But a slew of lawsuits followed. Plaintiffs said the 14th Amendment is clear.
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Myrna Brown
That anyone born in the United States.
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Nick Iker
Is a citizen, and several district courts blocked the order.
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Myrna Brown
The White House wants it to take.
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Nick Iker
Effect in parts of the country while the legal battle plays out. The Supreme Court is blocking the order for now, but they've agreed to hear arguments on the issue next month. For World I'm Christina Grube.
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Kent Covington
U.S. officials are set to meet with Iranian negotiators again this weekend for another round of nuclear talks, this time in Rome. The president says the Iranian regime faces a clear choice.
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John Stonestreet
I'd like to see Iran thrive and they can do that, I think very easily, or they can do it the other way and the other way is not going to be good for them. It's going to be really bad for them.
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Kent Covington
His remarks follow a report from the New York Times stating that Israel was recently all set to strike Iran's nuclear facilities with help from the US and but that President Trump halted that plan. The Times reports that the president wanted to give diplomacy one more chance. Trump told reporters on Thursday that he did not wave off any planned attack, but he said he does want to try and prevent a nuclear armed Iran peacefully if possible.
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John Stonestreet
And I think Iran is wanting to talk, I hope they're wanting to talk.
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Kent Covington
But the two sides are very far apart at the moment. US Special envoy Steve Witkoff says any agreement will require Iran to completely dismantle its nuclear program. But Iran insists it has a right to enrich uranium, and that is not negotiable. At least two people are dead after a gunman opened fire on the campus of Florida State University on Thursday. The shooter is believed to be a student at the school. The two people he killed were not. Six people were hospitalized, including the gunman who was shot by police. Leon County Sheriff Walt McNeil.
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John Stonestreet
The shooter is 20 year old Phoenix.
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Kent Covington
Eichner and he's the son of a.
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John Stonestreet
Leon county sheriff deputy.
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Kent Covington
McNeil said the alleged shooter's mother has served with the sheriff's office for more than 18 years. One witness said the gunman appeared to fire a rifle in her direction, but no one was struck.
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Nick Iker
And then he turned back into his car and grabbed a pistol. And that's when I watched him shoot the lady in front of him.
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Kent Covington
Authorities believe that handgun to be the former service weapon belonging to the shooter's mother. No word yet. Automotive. I'm Kent Covington. And straight ahead, Culture Friday with John Stonestreet. Plus, a Disney animated classic turns 85 years old. This is the WORLD and Everything in it.
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Myrna Brown
It's Friday 18th April. Glad to have you along for today's edition of the World and Everything In It. Good morning. I'm Myrna Brown.
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Nick Iker
And I'm Nick Iker. It's CULTURE Friday. Joining us now, John Stonestreet, the president of the Colson center and host the Breakpoint podcast. It's been a couple of weeks, John, it's good to see you. Good morning and welcome back.
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Christina Grube
Thank you very much. Good morning to you both.
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Myrna Brown
Well, John, a major decision from Britain's highest court is making waves. The UK Supreme Court ruled unanimously that under its 2010 Equality act, the legal definition of woman refers to biological sex. In other words, men who possess a government issued gender recognition certificate cannot be counted as women. For equality related policies, let's listen to the court's deputy president, Lord Patrick Hodge reading the ruling.
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John Stonestreet
It is not the task of this court to make policy on how the interests of these groups should be protected. Our role is to ascertain the meaning of the legislation which Parliament has enacted. To that end, the unanimous decision of the this court is that the terms woman and sex in The Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex.
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Myrna Brown
There it is the case was brought by the Group for Women Scotland. They argued that a 2018 Scottish law requiring half of public board members to be female could effectively be filled entirely by men identifying as women. They made the simple point that this undermines the very idea of female representation. Now, as I say, this decision is in the uk, but does it have implications for US law or culture? We'll talk about what's happening in your state in a moment, John. But will the trajectory remain very different here, do you think?
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Christina Grube
I think it's a great question. And I think what's happening in my state in Colorado legally makes me think that there's a lot more ground to cover, at least when it comes to U.S. law. And I would say also U.S. culture. There's so many interesting things here. First of all, the argument legally on authorial intent. In other words, what did those who produce this law mean by this language? And I didn't think we did that in law anymore. I thought we were all positive law folks that, that just, you know, basically interpreted whatever was good for the moment. So that to me was a significant statement simply because it reflects a deep philosophy of what we think about words and what we think about language. The kind of stuff that, you know, we think is kind highly nerdy academic, philosophical stuff, but as we've seen in the last half of a century, has had incredible implications. What we mean by words, what we mean by language is really, really important. But at some point, Romans 1 is really right. I know we're supposed to say that as a Christian organization, but good heavens, the ability of people, including entire nations and maybe civilizations, to self deceive based on what we want and how that affects what we see and what we say and what we think. That is the chapter two of the biblical story, the Fall and just how deep and wide that can actually run. And I think this is a story for that. The last thing I'll say is, look, you can defeat bad ideas. This is a defeat of a bad idea in a particular area. But what makes that defeat sustainable is that the bad idea is replaced by a good idea. So the wrong understanding and idea about what it means to be human, male and female, has to be replaced by the right view. And so I think in terms of what this means long term, the reality is law and culture have this interdependent relationship and there's work that has to be done, both directions to secure what is true on the other shore, so to speak.
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Nick Iker
So, John, I have to wonder at this point whether NBC affiliates in Colorado might find Themselves in some hot water for airing what I'm about to play. Because this next clip pokes fun at something you're apparently not allowed to joke about anymore. And that would be the contradictions baked into today's debates. Now, please don't go looking for this on the Internet. I did see it. There are lots of vulgarities in there. I have edited carefully to get the essence of the skit, which aired last weekend on Saturday Night Live. This is a mainstream comedy show that's not exactly known for punching left. But this sketch, I think, did just that. It imagines a homosexual male couple arriving with a surprise baby. And then their friends ask them really basic questions. Where did the baby come from? And as this goes on, the answers get more and more evasive and defensive and absurd. It goes on for a bit, but have a listen.
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Christina Grube
Whose baby is that?
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John Stonestreet
Excuse me?
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Christina Grube
It's ours.
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John Stonestreet
Wait, but how?
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Nick Iker
Okay, I'm sorry, but gay people can't have a baby.
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John Stonestreet
Yeah, but, like, where did it come from?
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Nick Iker
Wow.
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Christina Grube
You are not allowed to talk like that.
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Nick Iker
That is so invasive.
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John Stonestreet
What we're asking is, how did this happen?
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Nick Iker
I think we're just wondering who the mother is.
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Max Bell
Okay, well, between the two of us.
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Nick Iker
I'm more emotional, and I like shopping, so. Me, I think.
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Max Bell
Yeah, but, I mean, I have long hair, and he is an alcoholic, so I guess it's like two moms.
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John Stonestreet
I guess. Guys, how did you get this baby?
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Christina Grube
What's confusing us is you never mentioned that you were having a baby, so this feels pretty sudden.
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Nick Iker
Uh, yeah.
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Max Bell
Cause it wasn't planned. Sometimes it's an accident.
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John Stonestreet
How does a gay couple have a baby by accident?
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Nick Iker
What do you want us to say? That we stole her?
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John Stonestreet
Did you?
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Max Bell
Well, we like to think of it as she stole us.
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Christina Grube
So does that mean.
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Kent Covington
Yes.
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Max Bell
Why are you confused?
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Christina Grube
Where is your baby from?
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Kent Covington
Us.
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John Stonestreet
But how did you get.
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Max Bell
You mean she.
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Christina Grube
They. Until he tells us otherwise.
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Nick Iker
Now, comedy works because it reveals something that's true. And this sketch, I think, really taps into a cultural confusion where simply asking questions about sex and biology can be labeled hate. Which brings us to Colorado. Lawmakers in your state, John, have just advanced a slate of bills that go even further than this. So what do you think of the juxtaposition here, John, when parody starts to sound like policy and when the law begins to enforce a worldview that comedy writers already are starting to question?
- [14:27]
Christina Grube
Well, first of all, I did see the Saturday Night Live skit, and I appreciate that take on it. And here's how it connects to Colorado I'm not sure that that Saturday Night Live skit was punching left as much as it was maybe mocking the fact that there is a sense in which homosexual marriage and everything that goes along with it is absolutely untouchable. In fact, it's so untouchable, we'll even make fun of ourselves, and you're still not allowed to ask. And we know that we're untouchable. And what is crazy about this really, is that this was an entire sketch about a consequence of legalizing same sex marriage, which is then mandating, in a sense, the rights, quote, unquote, of same sex parenting, that the right to marriage guarantees the right to have children. And of course, in that relational arrangement, you're not having children, you're acquiring children. This is what's called universal parentage laws, that whatever it takes to give a couple the child that they desire, that has to be legalized. And some even argue that it's covered by insurance. Now, look, it's been 10 years since Obergefell. Obergefell mandated same sex marriage across America, including on those states that had defined marriage otherwise, including, for example, Colorado. And we were told then that marriage has nothing to do with procreation, that marriage is about acceptance. Marriage is about not discriminating against love. Remember, love is love, and so on and so on. And many people, us included, said that, you know, there's no way to change the definition of marriage without changing the definition of mother and father, without changing the definition of man and woman. That's where all of this goes. That sketch, to me, is proof, right? So 10 years later, we now have a sketch. Maybe the charitable take is yours. Maybe it's holding this up as, yep, it's now untouchable, even as crazy and absurd and bizarre as it now looks.
- [16:24]
Nick Iker
But let's do get into Colorado here. I mean, I think what's going on in your state is really interesting. This. This idea of penalizing people for quote, unquote, misgendering or quote, unquote, dead, naming someone, including parents, and it would make it part of child custody hearing. Supporters simply say this is a protection of the rights of transgender people. Critics point out it's much more dangerous than merely that, that they criminalize disagreement, sideline parents, and collapse the very categories like male and female that make human life intelligible in the first place. So what is going on?
- [17:03]
Christina Grube
Absolutely. Let's get into Colorado, because what we have is a United States that is divided state by state like it was prior to the Civil War over matters of significant moral weight. We have not been divided state by state over such a significant moral question since slavery and Jim Crow. What we're now talking about on these bills, and you mentioned the transgender bill. It's also a bill that would put into place what the voters voted for, which was taxpayer covered abortion in many circumstances, which also has a transmedicine bill, a tag on the end of that one. Now, written into this in the state of Colorado is a couple realities. The first reality is that this would effectively put the state in a whole new way in between children and the parents. Kids belong to the state, and if parents don't go along with what the state requires, then they will take the children away. Second thing we need to note is that a lot of people are talking, you know, why aren't you guys fighting this? Everyone's fighting it. The problem is there's a super majority. So the folks who tell us that Christians shouldn't get involved in politics, this is what you end up getting. Where there's nothing we can do, really, to stop these things. People are trying. There's a group of pastors courageously showing up at the State House. There's a lot of us that have signed petitions and that sort of stuff. But this is now a decision. And if I were. All of my kids were young and we were facing, you know, what's it gonna be like to live in this culture? I would not live in Colorado. I wouldn't take the risk. The last thing I wanna say is I moved to Colorado in 2007, somewhere around 2014, 15. I can't remember this specific election cycle we put in front of the ballot. Dr. Assisted suicide. @ the time, a number of Christian groups worked together to put out a whole lot of resources, videos, sermon outlines and so on. What we were told then by several prominent pastors and church leaders in the state was that that's too political. We're not going to talk about it at church. So we were talking about causing death, to quote, unquote, alleviate suffering. But that was too political. Of course, inherent in that is a fundamental misunderstanding between what is a political issue and what is a moral issue with political ramifications. And the inability to tell the difference between those two things is a deep virus that infects the American church, particularly in some places. Now, this is what we have. We have a group of pastors that are begging big church pastors to speak out. Many of them aren't. And they're saying to the same degree this is political. And we don't talk about political things in church. And my question is, at what point does something stop being political and start being a question of human rights, the right to life, the right to know your mom and dad, the right of moms and dads to protect their own children? This is where this devolves to this bad thinking that churches don't have anything to say to the public square, and we want to be unpopular and we're not willing to stand up for what is true. Ironically, some of these pastors who say that these sorts of issues are too political were very quick to march with Black Lives Matter. So I'm just trying to make sense of it all. I just know that the system we're currently employing in our public theology is leading further down the hole in states like Colorado.
- [20:29]
Myrna Brown
Just very troubling. Well, on this Good Friday, I don't know about you, John, but I've spent much of Holy Week thinking about something that I've heard you say many times, more times than I can count. Elections have consequences. And after hearing President Trump's Palm Sunday message, I can finally echo that line, not with a grimace, but with a great big smile and a grateful heart. What a difference a year and an election can make politically, culturally, and spiritually.
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Christina Grube
Well, there's no question it's much better to get a recognition this time of year of Easter and Palm Sunday about the crucifixion of Christ and his resurrection than a trans day of visibility, which happened, I think, last year on Easter Sunday, which obviously is not just a shout out to the trans community. It's a shout in the face of a much larger Christian community. And, you know, elections do have consequences. They also have limits. And that's what we're seeing on the state by state level. Not to go back to the last question, but your question has to do with something much more important than elections and who's in the White House, and that's who's on the throne of heaven and earth. And that is a wonderful and important thing to remember. We told our team this week that, you know, we tend to just kind of realize, oh, it's Palm Sunday and, oh, it's Easter, and forget that there's this whole series of events during Holy Week, from the beginning to the end, for which we should prepare, about which we should think deeply, including what Christ commanded us at the Last Supper, including the abandonment and the despair of Friday afternoon, including what Christ accomplished through his death, his resurrection, and then what it means that he's now ascended to the right hand of the throne of God and everything has been put under his feet. The Bible talks about all these events not just as realities that actually happened in history, though it does, but as realities that happen in history that define all of reality. These aren't just matters of private personal belief. They are cosmic realities that have fundamentally changed things about whose world it is, who owns it, who runs it, and what it means for us to have hope. And so I hope that as we wrestle even with the limits of temporal power, as important as that is, we remember over and over and over who is king, who is Lord. As Peter said, it's the one who God raised from the dead, who has been made Lord in Christ.
- [23:06]
Nick Iker
John Stonestreet is president of the Colson center and host of the Breakpoint Podcast. John, of course it is Good Friday. We won't talk again until until after he has risen. So let's close by just affirming he is risen.
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Christina Grube
He's risen indeed. Thank you both.
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Kent Covington
Additional support comes from Ambassadors Impact Network.
- [23:43]
Christina Grube
Helping purpose driven entrepreneurs explore financing options that align with their values. More@ambassadorsimpact.com and from Pensacola Christian College Academic Excellence Biblical Worldview affordable cost. Go pcci.edu.
- [24:05]
Max Bell
World.
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Myrna Brown
Today is Friday, April 18th. Thank you for turning to World Radio to help start your day. Good morning, I'm Myrna Brown.
- [24:28]
Nick Iker
And I'm Nick Iker. Next up on the World and everything in it, a Disney Classic turns 85 Pinocchio may sparkle with charm, but beneath the wish upon a star magic lies a story that has weight. As reviewer Max Bells puts it, the tale echoes C.S. lewis, where reckless choices turn boys into beasts and real life begins with sacrifice.
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Max Bell
Pinocchio is a feast for the eyes. As Walt Disney's second feature movie, it looks markedly better than Snow white and the Seven Dwarfs, which had come out three years earlier. Here's film historian J.B. kaufman.
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Kent Covington
Pinocchio represents kind of an all time.
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Nick Iker
Pinnacle in the craft of making animated films. It's one of the most lavishly detailed.
- [25:25]
Kent Covington
Gorgeously produced films that anyone has ever made.
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Max Bell
The animation is dynamic and detailed. We see shadows dancing against the wall. The sequence under the ocean water is complete with bubbles and reflected sunlight. Early shots in the workshop have a short depth of field, drawing the main characters into crystalline focus.
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Myrna Brown
Little puppet made of pine wake the.
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Nick Iker
Gift of life is thine.
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Max Bell
In addition to the beautiful animation, Pinocchio is a story with lasting themes about the pursuit of life. The movie opens with the toymaker Geppetto putting the finishing touches on a new marionette before climbing into bed. He wishes that his puppet could be a Real boy. Wouldn't that be nice?
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John Stonestreet
Just think, a real boy.
- [26:15]
Max Bell
Much to his surprise, a fairy partially grants his request. In order to become a fair, fully real boy, Pinocchio must prove himself by being brave, truthful and unselfish.
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John Stonestreet
And someday, you will be a real boy.
- [26:28]
Christina Grube
A real boy.
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Max Bell
The quest for true humanity is on. But if you remember the story, poor Pinocchio is turned aside by temptations from the start. He doesn't even make it to the first day of school, but instead finds his way into a theater act and locked in a cage. Later, he takes up with a bad kid named Lampwick, who goes with him to Pleasure Island.
- [26:49]
Myrna Brown
But they say it's a swell joint. No school, no cops. You can tear the joint apart and nobody says a word.
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Max Bell
All through these missteps, his conscience, Jiminy Cricket tries to keep him on the straight and narrow.
- [27:00]
Myrna Brown
Temptations, they're the wrong things that seem right at the time.
- [27:04]
Max Bell
But beneath the schmaltz of wishing on a star and dreams coming true, the story is frightening. Reminiscent of a grim fairy tale. The stakes are high for Pinocchio in both his actions and the results of his actions.
- [27:18]
Christina Grube
What's happened?
- [27:19]
Myrna Brown
Perhaps you haven't been telling the truth, Pinocchio. Perhaps. Oh, but I have. Every single word.
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Max Bell
On the one hand, Pinocchio has promised full boyhood or full life if he behaves himself. On the other hand, the more he indulges himself, he actually moves farther away from enjoying real life, sprouting ears and a tail. Much like Eustace in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, whose greed changes him into a dragon. So, too, Pinocchio starts to become a jackass, a beast of burden.
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Myrna Brown
Hey, you laugh like a donkey. Did that come out of me?
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Max Bell
The other boys drink, carouse and fight. They smash a home with baseball bats and clubs. But as they indulge themselves, they also change into animals. Once their transformation is complete, their overlords corral them into crates and ship them away to work in salt mines. They are transformed and ultimately enslaved by their own reckless living.
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John Stonestreet
Where did all the donkeys come from?
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Max Bell
It's a troubling consequence. But like an old fairy tale, the curse of becoming an animal looms large. To fully lose your humanity is to lose connection and love. What could be better than being a human being? Even with all the pain or loss that comes with it?
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Myrna Brown
So this is where I find you.
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Christina Grube
How do you ever expect to be a real boy?
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John Stonestreet
Look at yourself.
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Max Bell
The groundbreaking visual effects with water, smoke and shadows pushed animation towards new possibilities. In 1940. Disney's nine old men, the studio's legendary team of artists also worked hard to imbue the characters with human traits. They worked with mirrors above their desks so they could copy their own facial expressions and movements. Here's Disney animator Ollie Johnston describing his own process.
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John Stonestreet
I have to think, how would this guy act if he's terrified? And then I try to make these drawings and I feel this terror myself.
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Max Bell
By the end of the movie, Geppetto gets what he wished. The fairy transforms Pinocchio into into a real boy after he rescues Geppetto from the terrible whale Monstro. His selflessness is tied to greater life, and the boy and his father live happily ever after. Sight and sound are the basic elements in a movie, and this classic brings them together in a fresh and enduring way. Even at 85 years old, Pinocchio still crackles with life. I'm Max Bell.
- [29:51]
John Stonestreet
When your heart is in your dream.
- [30:20]
Nick Iker
Today is Friday, April 18th. Good morning. This is the world and everything in it. From listener supported World Radio, I'm Nick Iger.
- [30:29]
Myrna Brown
And I'm Myrna Brown. Holy Week is a time for reflection. A time for Christians to consider the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's also a time to ask how that reality shapes the way we live.
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Nick Iker
And sometimes a fresh perspective can deepen our understanding of the most important event in human history. Today we turn to a short book of meditations by author Gregory Athnos. He's professor emeritus at North Park University in Chicago. He taught there for three decades as a conductor and lecturer in music history and literature. And his choirs have performed all over the world.
- [31:09]
Myrna Brown
Athnos is author of several books and this Good Friday we'll hear about his book Silent Meditations for Holy Week. One of those silent voices is Barabbas, a passage read here by actor John.
- [31:25]
Gregory Athnos
The disgrace of crucifixion I deserve are being transferred to the innocent carpenter's son. He dies a murderous death while I, the murderer, go free. Who is this man? Why does he willingly take my place?
- [31:42]
Nick Iker
World's Mary Reichard talked with Athnos about the book and here is part of that interview.
- [31:48]
Myrna Brown
Greg Silent Voices takes on different points of view of people who were present on Resurrection day. And you focus on these silent figures who speak very little or not at all through the scriptures. Who what drew you to tell the Passion through their eyes?
- [32:05]
John Stonestreet
Well, we've lived with this story our entire life. We've grown up in the church and so we know the main characters, we know who they were, what they did what the reactions were. But what about those other figures that don't speak but they're part of the story? What were they thinking? And so I thought, if I can figure out if I can get myself inside their sandals and robes and see the events through their eyes, that might enlighten me more deeply about the story itself.
- [32:35]
Myrna Brown
Now, one of the things that some people might have a concern about is that you are blending scripture and tradition with your own imagination. So that might concern some people. How did you approach this without losing biblical grounding?
- [32:51]
John Stonestreet
It was a challenge. I know the story, it's part of my life. And I want to be true to the story as Scripture tells it. But I also wanted to get, in addition to the fact, something in the emotions of it which you sometimes don't pick up from Scripture. Facts are there, emotions are sometimes in the background. So I wanted to put myself in a pre resurrection state of mind and speculate what could be possible situations and responses to those situations for those people. So I was constantly trying to be creative and imaginative, and yet every time I came up with an idea, I had to put it against the facts of Scripture. Now, can I say for sure what they did and what they thought? No, I can't. But I wanted the reader to assume the same position. So if you were that person, what would you do? And if your response was different from mine? That's the whole point of the exercise.
- [33:54]
Myrna Brown
Why do you think it's important that we do this exercise and put ourselves in the sandals and robes, as you say, of these silent people?
- [34:02]
John Stonestreet
You know, we're like a smooth stone skipping over the surface of a calm lake. That's about how deeply we know the story because we've known it our whole life. So we can just skim over the surface of it and leave the murky bottom sort of untouched. I felt if we could find ourselves more engaged with the terrible thought that this person we followed for three years was going to have to die. And this went against everything we knew about and everything we anticipated about Messiah. The disillusionment would be overwhelming. And if we could get down to the depths of the disillusionment, maybe we would more greatly respond to the heights of the resurrection that follow. So the more deeply we understand the dark side, the more profoundly we can understand the bright side.
- [34:55]
Myrna Brown
Well, let's take a moment and hear a longer excerpt from one of the silent voices. Who is this first one?
- [35:01]
John Stonestreet
Let's see. I think the soldier at the tomb. What did he see? Scripture doesn't tell us anything about what happened, except it was an earthquake and the stone was rolled away. So I said, well, what would the resurrection have actually felt like and looked like? And I had to put myself in the eyes and hearts of the guy standing at the tomb, witnessing all of this.
- [35:26]
Myrna Brown
All right, that's the setup. Let's have a listen.
- [35:29]
Gregory Athnos
I was peering into a new dimension. Shall I embrace it or flee from it in terror like the others? I lay there alone, naked of all pretense, ignorant of fear, immune to trembling, held captive by a blind and dumb neutrality. I could not escape those crimson flames, nor could I embrace them. As a Roman, I did not believe in hell and there was no heaven, just life and the void called death. I was trapped, caught between mind and heart. My heart wanted what the living presence offered, but my mind doubted my need to want. My heart wanted what I saw of divinity. Yet my mind felt reluctant to part with my humanity. The two forces, negative mind and positive heart, fought within me. As a Roman guard, I foolishly allowed the one I had always lived by to reign. That hellish force of mind, narrowing my choices, obliterating all hope. If I fled, I would die in Pilate's court for dereliction of duty. If I stayed, I would most certainly die. In the all consuming light of that living presence. I was a dead man regardless. I made my decisive and destructive choice. I ran. I ran for my life. I, one of the crack troops of Rome, fled in utter, unfettered, uncontrolled terror. I refused the crimson invitation. I chose my scarlet sepulcher over his white as snow paradise.
- [37:05]
John Stonestreet
I saw that all that God had ever put together in creation, all the laws that he had put in place to keep things going, they all disintegrate. And so we say, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And we say it so casually. But what that really means is everything that we have done to a perfect creation has to be destroyed in the process. Which means that the return to Eden is violent and totally uprooting. But then, bottom of the line was, well, this soldier saw it all. Did he believe? Well, Scripture says nothing about that. And so? Well, why didn't he? From what he'd seen, certainly he should have believed. Why didn't he? And so that was a. I was shocked by that, by having created a picture of what the resurrection did, who would not say yes to it?
- [38:03]
Myrna Brown
There's a lot more from Mary's conversation with Greg Atnos that we just don't have time for today. So later this afternoon, we'll post a short episode in our feed that features the rest of this interview and a few more dramatic readings from John Gager. We pray that it will be a meaningful reflection for your Good Friday observances.
- [38:32]
Nick Iker
All right, time now to say thank you to the team members who helped to put the program together this week. Mary Reichert, David Bonson, Emma Eicher, Addie Offrens, Anna Johansen Brown, Mary Muncie, Brad Littlejohn, Leo Briceno, Onise Adua, Janie B. Cheney, Becca McCallum, Cal Thomas, John Stonestreet and Max Bells. And a couple of new voices this week, Trevor Sides and Elizabeth Schenck. Thanks also to our breaking news team, Kent Covington, Lindy Langdon, Steve Klosterman, Lauren Canterbury and Christina Grube. And thanks to the guys who stay up late to get the program to you early. Carl Peetz and Benj Eicher Harris.
- [39:14]
Myrna Brown
Allison Waters is Washington producer. Lindsay Mast and Lee Jones are our features editors. While Kristin Flavin is out on maternity leave, Paul Butler is executive producer and Les Sillers, our editor in chief. The world and everything in it comes to you from World Radio. World's mission is biblically objective journalism that informs, educates and inspires. The Bible says, but he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace. And with his wounds we are healed. Verse 5 of Isaiah 53 and also he is not here, for he has risen, as he said part of verse 6 of Matthew, Matthew 28. Lord willing, we will meet you right back here on Monday, but on Resurrection Sunday, we implore you. Don't miss the opportunity to proclaim to your brothers and sisters in Christ, he is risen.
- [40:22]
Nick Iker
He is risen indeed. Go now in grace and peace.