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The World and Everything In It
8.19.25 Summits and proposed land swaps, organ donation concerns, and living in wartime Ukraine
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- [00:06]
Mary Reichert
Good morning. World leaders cycled through the White House, each pressing a vision for peace in Russia and Ukraine.
- [00:12]
Nick Eicher
Also today, the push for organ donation and whether we're declaring some people dead before they are. I would rather not take a few more donors than cross the line over who's a person and who's not. And later, for believers in contested parts of the world, practicing faith publicly has potential costs.
- [00:31]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
If you live unless under Russian occupation concerning your Christian faith, you will return like to Soviet Union.
- [00:47]
Mary Reichert
It's Tuesday, August 19th. This is the world and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Mary Reichert.
- [00:54]
Nick Eicher
And I'm Nick Eicher. Good morning.
- [00:58]
Mary Reichert
Now news. Here's Mark Mellinger.
- [01:00]
Mark Mellinger
President Trump says he's called Russian leader Vladimir Putin to arrange a meeting between Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Germany's chancellor says that meeting is slated to happen within the next two weeks, though there's no agreement yet on where they'll meet. This development comes after Trump met with Zelenskyy and leaders from a handful of European countries at the White House Monday seeking a path to end Russia's war on Ukraine. I believe a peace agreement at the end of all of this is something that's very attainable. Zelensky left the meeting, saying he is ready to meet with Putin one on one. A three way meeting with Trump could reportedly follow. Zelensky says he and Trump discussed deterring future Russian attacks with U.S. and European allies providing protections similar to those NATO gives its member nations. This is very important that United States.
- [01:55]
Nick Eicher
Gives such strong signal and is ready for security guarantees.
- [02:00]
Mark Mellinger
Trump says Ukraine will ultimately have to accept a peace deal that does not involve regaining Crimea, a region Ukraine says Russia illegally annexed in 2014. Much more on this story a little later in the program. The terror group Hamas says it's agreed to a new ceasefire in the Gaza Strip, a proposal brokered by Qatar and Egypt.
- [02:24]
Lauren Canterbury
Hydrogen?
- [02:24]
Mark Mellinger
Hamas says the proposed deal calls for the release of 10 living hostages in Hamas captivity as well as 18 dead hostages. Israel says it's received Hamas response, but its position isn't changing. It's calling for the release of all hostages and the total disarmament of Hamas as the Israeli military plans to take control of Gaza City, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calls Hamas last bastion. Thousands of people in the area, like this man interpreted through a translator, have left their homes amid the Israeli bombardment.
- [03:01]
Nick Eicher
Our situation is tough. We have no money, no income, no work. I do not want to keep moving left and right endlessly.
- [03:08]
Mark Mellinger
The UN says more than 1.3 million Gazans need emergency shelter items. Israel's military says it's helping meet those needs while preparing to relocate residents out of the combat zone. Texas Democrats have ended their walkout.
- [03:25]
Nick Eicher
A quorum is present.
- [03:28]
Mark Mellinger
The state lawmakers who left to break quorum returned Monday. The Republican controlled state legislature is now in position to pass redrawn congressional maps, creating up to five new GOP friendly seats for next year's midterm elections. From there, Democrat state Rep. John Rosenthal, interviewed at a rally, says to expect a court fight.
- [03:50]
George Barros
We may not have the numbers but.
- [03:52]
Nick Eicher
We will set up the court battle.
- [03:54]
George Barros
These maps were already the previous maps were already in court and so the.
- [04:00]
Nick Eicher
New maps are clearly boldly unconstitutional and illegal.
- [04:05]
Mark Mellinger
Texas lawmakers did not take action on any bills Monday. They get back to work tomorrow. Leaders of several Democrat run states are now pledging to redraw their district lines too. Several more GOP led states are also considering or moving forward with similar efforts. The Justice Department will start sharing documents from the Jeffrey Epstein investigation with Congress Friday. Democrats have called for the Trump administration to come clean about the president's relationship with Epstein, a disgraced financier who committed suicide in federal custody while awaiting a criminal trial six years ago. Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett is criticizing the White House's delay of its promise to release the Epstein files.
- [04:50]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
This is a promise, I will tell you, that was not made by Kamala Harris. It's not a promise that was made by Joe Biden. This was a promise that was made by Donald Trump.
- [05:00]
Mark Mellinger
But House Oversight Committee Chair James Comer says, according to testimony from former Attorney General Bill Barr Monday, President Trump has nothing to hide.
- [05:10]
Nick Eicher
He believed if there had been anything pertaining to President Trump with respect to the Epstein list that he felt like the Biden administration would have probably leaked it out.
- [05:20]
Mark Mellinger
The DOJ says it'll take time to release all of the Epstein documents. That's because they contain lewd material and victims names must be redacted. President Trump says he is working to end mail in voting before next year's midterm elections. We're going to start with an executive order that's being written right now by the best lawyers in the country to end mail in ballots because they're corrupt. In a social media post, Trump says his executive order will bring honesty to the 2026 midterm elections. Under the Constitution, though, Trump can't do anything on his own when it comes to this issue. The Constitution gives states the right to administer elections in the manner of their choosing. Though Congress can make or change voting regulations involving federal offices. In North Carolina's Outer Banks region, business owners are deciding when to shutter their shops as Hurricane Erin churns off the East Coast.
- [06:20]
Lauren Canterbury
No, there's no reason to close, is there?
- [06:24]
George Barros
People need coffee as long as I can get here.
- [06:26]
Mark Mellinger
Andrew Tucker owns Ugly Mugs in Avon. He tells World he probably won't close until Wednesday, when forecasters predict tidal flooding will start in earnest. It's the first hurricane of the season and there is a mandatory evacuation order in place. But one employee, dawn, has never left the island for a hurricane. She says it's too expensive to pay for several weeks of lodging if the roads are washed out.
- [06:51]
George Barros
They just cannot predict Mother Nature. I'm sorry.
- [06:56]
Mark Mellinger
They could come close, but it's going to do what it wants to do. Tucker says it'll hurt to have the last good week of tourist season cut short, but people need to be safe. I'm Mark Mellinger. Straight ahead, what's next for peace talks between Russia and Ukraine? Plus, supporting Ukrainian Christians caught in the crosshairs. This is the WORLD and everything in it.
- [07:39]
Nick Eicher
It's Tuesday 19th August. Glad to have you along. For today's edition of THE WORLD and Everything in it. Good morning. I'm Nick Eichard.
- [07:46]
Mary Reichert
And I'm Mary Reichert. First up, high level diplomacy. President Trump spent the day in Washington meeting first with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, followed by talks with leaders from the European Union and NATO. President Trump signaled cautious optimism heading into a new round of talks.
- [08:05]
Nick Eicher
The president referring to a possible three way meeting with himself, Zelensky and Russian President Vladimir Putin. His latest diplomatic push comes on the heels of last week's summit in Alaska where the administration reported progress toward a peace deal. To talk about what could happen next, we're joined by George Barros. He's lead Russia analyst at the Institute for the Study of War. He's also a former advisor to the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Russia and Ukraine.
- [08:33]
Mary Reichert
George, good morning.
- [08:34]
George Barros
Hey, Mary, good morning. Thank you so much for having me.
- [08:37]
Mary Reichert
Sure. Glad you're here. Well, how would you characterize the summit in Alaska on Friday and conversations yesterday at the White House?
- [08:45]
George Barros
So last Friday's summit in Alaska was a big success for Russian President Vladimir Putin. He had an opportunity to legitimize himself, unisolate himself from the international community. And President Trump walked away from that meeting, I think, with some Russian amenable talking points and I think a misunderstanding of the Russian position. For example, President Trump left last Friday discussing about how the Russians were open to potentially Ukraine receiving some security guarantees, which candidly, I found a little bewildering, given that the Russians have been very clear that they are not open to Ukraine receiving any kinds of security guarantees. Now, as for this most recent meeting in Washington yesterday, that one went quite well, I think. President Zelensky did not engage in any faux pas. He didn't step in any landmines. The meetings appeared to have gone well. The European leaders had some very strong statements about being unified against Russian aggression and that most importantly, the White House and the Europeans agree that they're not going to make any decisions without Ukraine and that they're going to have to go to the Russians and try to work out some sort of deal. But what we're seeing now is, appears to be a united western front against, against Russia. And we will see how the Russians are going to react, in my assessment, likely reject the contours of this conflict termination agreement.
- [10:08]
Mary Reichert
All right, let's talk more about that. Something that did come out of the Alaska meeting between Trump and Putin is a proposal to swap land. The details, as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, is Ukraine would give Russia control of about 2,500 square miles. That's about 12% of the Donbass in eastern Ukraine. And that includes land that Russia does not currently occupy. And so that would leave Russia about 440 square miles of territory in Sumy and Kharkiv. So sounds uneven to my ears. And I understand you do think that's a bad idea for other reasons. Why so.
- [10:44]
George Barros
Yeah, absolutely. So we have to be very clear here about what the Russians are asking for. This is not the land swap for conflict termination. The war doesn't end because of the land swap. This land swap is simply the prerequisite to get into the final negotiations so that we can then have conflict termination. So effectively, the Russians are asking for the Ukrainians to cede a tremendous amount of militarily strategically important territory to not even have a guarantee that the war will be over, just to, just to talk about potentially ending the war. So this is a huge non starter on that principle because it's a surrender of a lot of territory. Number two, the territory in particular really, really matters. I mean, you're talking about specifically Ukraine's eastern Donetsk province. It's where the Ukrainians have fortified and built a series of fortress cities which Russians are very unlikely to seize militarily. Slants, Kramatorsk, Di, Konstantin. These are massive cities that have been part of the 2014 defensive line. And it will take the Russian military, in our assessment, many years to actually fight their way and slog through all the. All the war fighting and campaigns necessary to seize that land. Now, the territory further beyond those fortified cities further to the west, they're not nearly as defensible as those four fortress cities. The terrain is not as defensible. And so, really, if you were going to give the Russians a launching point for where they can get into Ukraine's weak underbelly, getting beyond those fortress cities would be a massive concession. And so, for those reasons, the land swap is a bad deal. It's a bad idea, especially when it's not connected to some sort of robust security guarantee to ensure that wherever you draw the line, the line will not stop any further.
- [12:36]
Mary Reichert
I think I know your answer to this next question, but what's the likelihood for a ceasefire in the near future from your perspective?
- [12:43]
George Barros
Very low. I would be astonished if we get a ceasefire anytime in the next six months. Look, the Russians are making some tactical progress on the battlefield. They're advancing, albeit quite slowly. They have no reason to want to stop right now. Stopping right now foregoes the additional battlefield gains that the Russians can continue to eke out with brute force. Stopping now also will create a series of problems for the Russian domestic economy, which has been transitioned to a wartime economy. There are no jobs waiting for all the Russian soldiers at home that, you know, would be demobilized in the event of the war stopping. And for those reasons, I think it's very unlikely that Putin is not interested in doing something that's really caused a lot of problems for him, and especially before he achieves his war goals. He defines them in terms of regime change in Kyiv in the maximalist sense. He also defines it in terms of ultimatum on what the NATO alliance is allowed to do with its own countries, you know, deploying certain kinds of forces within NATO itself. Near Russia at the lowest, most end, he demands that Ukraine cede over territory the Russians have not achieved. And it would be a massive blow to Putin's credibility if he doesn't at least walk away with some of those things.
- [13:55]
Mary Reichert
Now, George, you study war, history of war. How do these two nations move forward after so much costly conflict in terms of lives lost, resources spent, and so forth?
- [14:07]
George Barros
So Russia and Ukraine are going to have generational enmity as a result of this war. This generation of Ukrainians and the next generation of Ukrainians are going to hate the Russians forever. And this generation of Russians are going to hate The Ukrainians forever. This is not going to be something that they're going to be able to just get along with. It will take centuries for this to repair itself and it might never. Well, I mean, Russia and Ukraine have always had a tenuous history, going Back to the 1700s, 1800s. This is one of the most difficult periods of the two nations history, and it will continue to be going forward.
- [14:44]
Mary Reichert
That's sobering. Last question. Is there anything about this story that you think the general public may not understand or some aspect that isn't being talked about?
- [14:53]
George Barros
I think a huge part of this has to do with the perception about the sustainability of Russia's war machine. It is not true that the Russians are the Soviet Union redux. It is not true that the contemporary Russian military is the Soviet Red Army. That is to say, it doesn't matter if you kill or wound a million Russians that come back with 2 million more, and you really cannot impose a military defeat on the Russian Federation. That's not true. Like all things, every resource is finite. People are finite. The Russians certainly have a lot more resources and more people. But that doesn't mean that you cannot defeat a numerically or conventionally more superior military with fewer people. Just because one side has more doesn't mean that it's dispositive the outcome. And for those reasons, it's important to keep backing Ukraine. If we agree with the Russian premise that Russian victory is prima facie inevitable, then, yes, the Ukrainians will lose.
- [15:46]
Mary Reichert
George Barros is Russia team and Geospatial Intelligence team lead for the Institute for the Study of War. George, thank you so much.
- [15:55]
George Barros
Of course, thank you for having me. Real pleasure.
- [16:01]
Nick Eicher
Coming up next on the World and everything in it. What if the person whose life saved yours was. Wasn't actually gone? Doctors, lawmakers and ethicists are asking hard questions about how and when we decide to pronounce someone dead. World's Lauren Canterbury reports.
- [16:19]
George Barros
My 20th birthday present was my new heart.
- [16:22]
Will Flieson
Thomas Kaines was a freshman at Covenant College in Tennessee when he returned home in January 2022. His mother, Sarah says he had been battling chronic fatigue, cold like symptoms and a persistent cough for weeks. That cough just kept progressing and we kept going back to the doctor. Weeks later, an echocardiogram showed his heart was failing. Thomas was just 19 years old. Doctors placed canes on the transplant waiting list. So for us, it was kind of a fast and uncertain process. There wasn't a lot of waiting time. There wasn't a lot of time to ask questions. A new heart became available about three weeks later.
- [17:00]
Mary Reichert
There is a bit of a guilt.
- [17:02]
Will Flieson
Feeling that for my son to live, someone else's son will have to die. Four days after he turned 20, Keynes received his new heart. Months later, as Keynes was beginning the recovery process, the donor's mother wrote them a letter about her son.
- [17:17]
George Barros
He was 37. He had a kid. He was a construction worker.
- [17:20]
Will Flieson
I remember that more than 100,000 people in the United States are on the national transplant waiting list. While living donors can donate some organs, like a kidney, most come from someone who has recently died. 90% of US adults support organ donation, yet only about 60% are registered organ donors. The Department of Health and Human Services released a report last month that showed some hospitals began the organ harvesting process even though patients still showed signs of life. Days later, the House Committee on Energy and Commerce held a hearing about alleged safety lapses in organ donation. Here's Chairman John Joyce, a Republican from Pennsylvania.
- [18:03]
George Barros
For every doctor, one of the most important tenants in the doctor patient relationship.
- [18:09]
Mark Mellinger
Is above all do no harm.
- [18:12]
George Barros
But what happened in these cases fractured the doctor patient relationship and saw patients subjected to pain and suffering that should never have occurred.
- [18:23]
Will Flieson
The report included the case of a 36 year old Kentucky man who in 2021 was declared dead. But as doctors were preparing his body to remove his organs, he woke up on the operating table. He went on to make a full recovery. The HHS report did not include any documented cases of inappropriate organ removal, though it suggested it has likely happened. Doctors use two primary criteria for determining when a patient has died. The most common method is circulatory death, when the heart stops beating. In 1968, a Harvard medical School committee published a report outlining a new way to determine death, brain death. According to the study, doctors could declare a patient brain dead if the patient did not respond to external stimuli, did not display spontaneous muscle movement, had no reflexes and had a flat reading on a brain scan. Dr. Heidi Klesig is a retired anesthesiologist who now advocates for organ donors rights.
- [19:23]
George Barros
They thought they could redefine them as being dead on utilitarian grounds. They said that it would help free up ICU beds and it would remove the controversy in using them as organ donors.
- [19:36]
Will Flieson
After a patient is declared brain dead, they are often supported on a ventilator and their heart is still beating when the organ procurement begins. The sooner organs are harvested after death, the more likely they are to be transferred successfully. In 1980, a commission created the Uniform Determination of Death act to standardize legal definitions. More than 2/3 of all states have adopted the model law, which recognizes either circulatory or brain death as criteria. Scott Henderson is an associate professor of philosophy at Luther Rice College and Seminary.
- [20:10]
George Barros
We are not just our brains, in other words, and there is no theory of consciousness out there today that is.
- [20:15]
Nick Eicher
Acceptable by people who study it.
- [20:17]
Will Flieson
Henderson is concerned that some patients who are declared brain dead may be alive but unable to communicate. He points to cases where a patient was declared brain dead but lived for years after the diagnosis. Other doctors believe brain death is an accurate determination of death. Dr. Gary Ott is a heart surgeon in Oregon and has performed heart transplants for decades.
- [20:40]
Nick Eicher
To me as someone who believes in we are created in an image of God and a precious gift of life, that spirit has fled.
- [20:48]
Will Flieson
While Ott does not have issues with using circulatory or brain death criteria for organ donation, he expressed concerns about a relatively new practice called normothermic regional perfusion. That's when doctors temporarily restore blood flow to organs after circulatory death while they are still inside the donor's body in an attempt to increase the chances of a successful transplant. But doctors block the blood vessels that go to the brain. Ott says that if someone's heart is restarted and their brain begins functioning, they were never dead.
- [21:22]
Nick Eicher
I would rather not take a few more donors than cross a line over who's a person and who's not. Those of us who have that line are a minority.
- [21:33]
Will Flieson
As a doctor, Ott wants all of his patients to trust that he will do his best to save their lives instead of pushing for organ donation. But he also believes organ donation is a picture of Christ's sacrifice of his own life so we can live.
- [21:48]
Nick Eicher
And out of this tragedy, God can bring good and change your life. That's a powerful message and we get to participate in that.
- [21:58]
Will Flieson
Reporting for world, I'm Lauren Canterbury.
- [22:13]
George Barros
Additional support comes from Cedarville University equipping students for professional excellence and gospel. Impact cedarville.edu world from eyewitness Powerful audio.
- [22:28]
Mark Mellinger
Dramas bringing faith, courage and history to.
- [22:31]
George Barros
Life in unfortunate at the letter I.
- [22:35]
Nick Eicher
Witnesspod.Com and from ambassadors Impact Network inviting entrepreneurs to access faith friendly financing options@ambassadorsimpact.com 11 years ago at a Fort Ford plant in Michigan, automaker Richard Guilford lost his wallet. Apparently it slipped from his shirt pocket and vanished somewhere on the line. The audio from CBS News I checked.
- [23:11]
George Barros
And I'm like, smitty, I lost my wallet. So we all went out, tried to look. You know, there was 2,000 cars out there.
- [23:17]
Nick Eicher
Yeah, needle in a haystack. Well, more than A decade and 150,000 miles later, a mechanic in Minnesota was working on a certain Ford edge. He pulled out the cooling fan, and guess what he found. Wallet, cash, gift cards, all intact. And instead of putting it in his own pocket, Chad Volk tracked down Richard Guilford.
- [23:40]
George Barros
Soils raised.
- [23:41]
Nick Eicher
Yep. Wallet lost on the assembly line. And a man raised on where to draw the ethical one. It's the world and everything in it.
- [24:01]
Mary Reichert
Today is Tuesday, August 19th. Thank you for turning to World Radio to help start your day. Good morning. I'm Mary Reichard.
- [24:08]
Nick Eicher
And I'm Nick Eicher. Next up on the world and everything in it, persecution in Ukraine. Russia's partial occupation of Ukraine has taken a toll on the the entire country. But it's been especially hard for Christians not aligned with the Russian Orthodox Church.
- [24:24]
Mary Reichert
Ukrainian Evangelicals share Western values of free speech, freedom of assembly, and obedience to God before government. In Russia's eyes, that makes them a threat to state control. And in parts of the country Russia now occupies, they face targeted persecution.
- [24:41]
Nick Eicher
Many evangelical Christians who once lived near the Russian border have found refuge in western Ukraine. World correspondent Will Flieson recently met with one pastor and his wife who fled Kharkiv as Russian tanks rolled toward the city.
- [25:01]
Vasile Egarkov
Around 4am on February 27, 2022, Vasile Egarkov and his wife Viktoria woke up to the sound of explosions.
- [25:09]
Lauren Canterbury
We have like red sky because Russians start bombing our city and they bombed bank near to our house and our windows and all building was shaken.
- [25:22]
Vasile Egarkov
Like many other Kharkiv residents, the couple had made plans to evacuate. No one wanted to live under Russia's thumb. But the Agrakovs had even more reason to fear.
- [25:31]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
In Ukraine, we have freedom of speech, we have freedom of religion, and we have freedom of faith. But when Russia comes and when Russia occupies, they kill the bastards, especially the Protestants.
- [25:44]
Vasile Egarkov
Because according to a report from the Christian advocacy group Mission Eurasia, Russia has killed nearly four dozen Ukrainian religious leaders since the start of the war. Nearly half of the victims were Evangelical or other Protestant believers. That's a big number since only 2.5% of Ukrainians are Protestant. Victoria had lived through one Russian invasion already in Crimea.
- [26:06]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
I lived there under occupation for two months, and then I decided to evacuate also.
- [26:13]
Vasile Egarkov
That was in 2014. What happened then taught Ukrainian Christians valuable lessons about what was to come.
- [26:19]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
Like if you live under Russian occupation, you need to realize that concerning your Christian faith, you will return, like to Soviet Union. If we stay there, we will be persecuted like we would need to hide. And we would need to decrease our ministry to minimum because it's almost impossible.
- [26:40]
Vasile Egarkov
That's what happened in Donetsk, where Vasile has a friend in ministry.
- [26:43]
Lauren Canterbury
He said, like almost all churches, for now, pastors were killed or persecuted because of their Christianity faith. And couple of them, for now, they exist. Like in the early churches, they try to hide in where they meet.
- [27:06]
Vasile Egarkov
Underground.
- [27:07]
Lauren Canterbury
Yeah, underground.
- [27:09]
Vasile Egarkov
Even if they survived the invasion, the Agarkovs knew they probably wouldn't be allowed to continue their ministry to university students in Kharkiv. So the couple fled west to Lviv along with thousands of others. A drive that normally took 13 hours stretched to 36.
- [27:24]
Lauren Canterbury
We have planned why we go to Lviv, because in Lviv, we have our Presbyterian church. So we decide we go to the city the farthest from the Russian border and that city which has our church, Presbyterian church.
- [27:41]
Vasile Egarkov
Once they settled into their new home, Victoria transitions from student ministry to what she calls war ministry.
- [27:47]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
We've been helping a lot of soldiers and people who live either close to the war zone or, like, at the front lines.
- [27:58]
Vasile Egarkov
Vasile began preaching and teaching.
- [28:00]
Lauren Canterbury
I started this Bible study, and we have dinner together and study psalms together and psalms of lament and psalms of praise. And it really helped to understand our emotional stuff and to understand how God see this, work this on just and unfair war. So it helped. Yeah.
- [28:24]
Vasile Egarkov
But the war put everything else on hold, including their plans to start a family.
- [28:28]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
Three years we've been living kind of like, oh, I wake up today. Oh, thank God. I'm gonna live this day, and I'm not gonna. Yeah, I'm not gonna think about tomorrow.
- [28:36]
Vasile Egarkov
That's how finally they decided they didn't want to wait anymore.
- [28:39]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
In the beginning, we were like, oh, maybe we're gonna have kids when the war is over. And now we're like, nobody knows when the war is over. Maybe it's gonna go on for 10 years or 20 or.
- [28:52]
Vasile Egarkov
And the number of children who need homes keeps growing.
- [28:55]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
So we were told that within these three years, the number of orphans in Ukraine doubled. And we were thinking that, you know, it's a good time to start the process.
- [29:09]
Vasile Egarkov
So at the beginning of this year, they applied to a da. Five months later, the family's apartment is full of life. Four rambunctious boys clamor for attention and dinner.
- [29:21]
Lauren Canterbury
We believe in God who cares for orphans and widows.
- [29:27]
George Barros
And.
- [29:29]
Lauren Canterbury
We saw this evil on this war. We think about what is our answer, how we can answer to this evil.
- [29:38]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
In Ukraine, how we can reduce people's suffering. Like that was the biggest issue for us because it's really heartbreaking.
- [29:49]
Vasile Egarkov
Starting a family is one way to fight back against the evils of war. Starting churches is another.
- [29:55]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
We really want Ukraine, you know, have more churches so people can go not only Orthodox or Catholic church, but they also can go to church where they can hear the gospel and hear what the Bible says.
- [30:10]
Vasile Egarkov
Right now Ukraine has just two reformed Presbyterian churches. Vasile dreams of having many all over.
- [30:16]
Lauren Canterbury
The country and they try to kill and destroy Christians and destroy churches and we think about planting mortuary. So it's like our response to this and we believe like when gospel is proclaimed and when people became Christians, our nations can and will be resurrected because of Jesus Christ and we will have hope and even in dark times.
- [30:45]
Vasile Egarkov
Reporting for World, I'm Will Flieson in Lviv, Ukraine.
- [30:55]
Mary Reichert
For more of Will Fleesen's coverage of Christians in Russian controlled Ukraine, check out the September issue of World magazine.
- [31:09]
Nick Eicher
Today is Tuesday, August 19th. Good morning, this is the World and everything in it from listener supported World Radio. I'm Nick Eichert.
- [31:17]
Mary Reichert
And I'm Mary Reichard.
- [31:19]
Nick Eicher
Let me tell you, tell you about.
- [31:20]
George Barros
The birds and the bees and the.
- [31:22]
Lauren Canterbury
Flowers and the trees, the moon up.
- [31:25]
George Barros
Above and a thing called love.
- [31:29]
Mary Reichert
When a science podcast uses seagull behavior to make a point about human sexuality, well, it might sound like a remix of the birds and the bees, but World Opinions contributor Maria Baer says it's less biology, more ideology, and it just doesn't fly.
- [31:49]
George Barros
All right, you're listening to Radiolab Radio from wny.
- [31:58]
I
The recent Radiolab episode about seagulls isn't really about seagulls, all thanks to gulls. Gulls like seagulls, Radiolab is a popular science podcast. But sometimes ideology gets in its way. This particular episode begins with a story of two scientists, George Hunt and Molly Warner, and their visit to a seagull colony on an uninhabited rock island off the coast of Santa Barbara.
- [32:25]
George Barros
It's about a mile across, treeless, mostly.
- [32:28]
Mark Mellinger
Cliff around the edges, totally uninhabited.
- [32:32]
George Barros
And on top of that rock, Molly's going to spot something that will change the the lives of millions of people.
- [32:40]
I
They documented a strange phenomenon. Pairs of female seagulls were living together in one out of 10 nests on the island. They were even going through the motions of mating. According to the paper the couple later published in the journal Science, this was the first official discovery of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. This was personally significant for the hosts of Radiolab.
- [33:06]
George Barros
All right, bias alert. Latif, my friend, you may recall that I too am A female, female paired vertebrate. I am a lady married to a lady.
- [33:17]
I
Host Lulu Miller goes on to say this blockbuster report on the lesbian seagulls threw cold water on the anti gay tactic of calling homosexuality unnatural. Like a dogged investigator on a cold case, she then set out to find just where this conspiracy of bigotry originated.
- [33:38]
George Barros
And that is a belief that, as.
- [33:40]
I
Best as I can tell, was born.
- [33:43]
George Barros
Back in the 1200s.
- [33:44]
I
She tells us it was Thomas Aquinas, that anti gay PR strategist and philosopher and priest, who came up with the idea to call homosexuality a, quote, crime against nature. Maybe the seagulls could finally put that nonsense to rest. Except they didn't. After further study, researchers discovered there'd been a crisis amid the male population of seagulls on Santa Barbara Island. They theorized that a chemical in the air or water was killing them off. For a brief period, that meant the female birds struggled to find a mate, prompting them to play act mating with each other. When the government regulated the harmful chemicals and the male seagull population rebounded, the female female pairings disappeared, much to host Lulu Miller's dismay.
- [34:36]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
Sorry to interrupt, but couldn't it be.
- [34:39]
George Barros
Happening without us realizing?
- [34:42]
Mark Mellinger
It could be happening without us realizing, but the eggs are big and obvious. I don't think it's going on now.
- [34:53]
George Barros
Sorry, I know.
- [34:54]
Ukrainian Evangelical Christian (possibly Vasile or Viktoria Egarkov)
I was like, as a queer person, that's.
- [34:56]
George Barros
I can hear you.
- [34:57]
Nick Eicher
Please tell me they still like doing that.
- [35:00]
George Barros
No, no, I.
- [35:01]
I
But I. I empathize with Miller's internal struggle. As much as I'd caution against building moral foundations on the exhibited behavior of animals, I too recognize the intense pull to rationalize my own sin. That's why I don't think Miller was really asking, do animals do this too? I think she was actually asking, is this good? Only she couldn't ask that because she's hamstrung by a worldview which sees humans as no more valuable than animals already. It sees no meaningful order or higher purpose to the universe. Everything is natural in a world that exists by accident. Everything is permissible if nothing matters. The great irony of this episode of Radiolab is that if the seagull story proved anything, it was that nature is ordered toward reproduction, and when animals cannot achieve it, they descend into crisis. The female seagulls were not exploring a new desire. They were miming an urgent craving for an unmet one. This isn't a story about the naturalness of homosexuality. It's a story about the irrepressible impulse of creation toward heterosexuality. Thomas AQUINAS did not invent the idea that homosexuality is fundamentally opposed to human flourishing. That was God who designed reproduction to only happen one very specific and life giving way. I'm Maria Baer.
- [36:37]
Nick Eicher
Tomorrow, more states consider midterm redistricting. We'll talk about it with Hunter Baker on Washington Wednesday. And how churches are connecting with Little League families during playoff travel. That and more tomorrow. I'm Nick Eicher.
- [36:51]
Mary Reichert
And I'm Mary Reichard. The world and everything in it comes to you from World Radio. World's mission is biblically objective journalism that informs, educates and inspires. The Bible records that while the disciples were all marveling at everything Jesus was doing, he said to them, let these words sink into your ears. The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men. But they did not understand the saying, and it was concealed from them so that they might not perceive it. And they were afraid to ask him about this saying. Verses 44 and 45 of Luke, chapter 9 go now in Grace and Peace SA.