Dr. Jeff Myers (3:16)

Mm, sure.

Lindsay (3:18)

Can you also explain the link between other mental health issues and gender confusion?

Dr. Kathy Cook (3:23)

It is absolutely sad, really discouraging and disturbing to both Dr. Jeff Myers and myself that the great number of people, great number of children, teens and even young adults who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. First of all, let me back up and say many of them don't have it. Gender dysphoria, as we define in the book, is a clinically distressed view of gender. We, most people don't have that. Most people just don't like their gender on a particular day. And let's be honest, Lindsay, most of us, if not all of us, have struggled at some point with something about ourselves. And, you know, we, we woke up and we went on our day and we didn't necessarily think about changing our gender. But that, that does point to depression, anxiety, stress, despair, being overwhelmed. Our children today are coping with so much that we didn't have to cope with. They see the world falling apart on the world wide web, if you will. And so there's, there's reasons for them discouraged. We have, frankly, we've got divorce. We have weak parenting where parents are fearful and scared, afraid to say no to their kids. And yet that causes no boundaries. And you and I both know that boundaries are blessings when love is the goal. And so it is a problem. What's really dangerous about the mental health issue? Our children and teenagers who think that changing their gender will solve their problems of depression and hopelessness and anxiety and stress and fear and loneliness, and it won't happen. You cannot actually change your gender. So the very thing that they think will work won't work. And now you have a non diagnosed or a diagnosed, not treated mental health issue on top of now the gender confusion and an attempt to change gender, which won't work. So it's a mess. And then they can't function well. And then it's hard for them and it's hard for us to watch it happen.

Dr. Jeff Myers (5:09)

Mm.

Lindsay (5:10)

I wanna ask, and I think it's appropriate because we are on a podcast. I found your story about your voice really compelling in the book. Can you tell that story again about.

Dr. Jeff Myers (5:19)

What you feel like your experience would.

Lindsay (5:21)

Have been like were you a child?

Dr. Kathy Cook (5:23)

Now the a reason I go by Dr. Kathy and I'm grateful it's a feminine name, you know, it's not Chris, it's not Taylor, it's not a name like river today. You know, that could have been anything. So I am. I am fully female. I was born, you know, a woman, born a girl, born a woman. And I still am. And yet I'm called sir a lot. My voice is low. Now, some people say it's not that low, but it is low. And when you cannot see me, like, I tell the story of the drive thru restaurant where you order your food and, you know, they say, thanks, sir, that's 482. And I drive 80 yards and I become a woman. You know, no, I'm a woman with a low voice. And Lindsay, one of the things that I know to be true is that if I was young today, being called sir because of my low voice, I might wonder if my voice was right and everything else was wrong. And then I began to question. And once you're allowed to question, you begin to look for answers. And because our culture is loud and I think the liar is loud, there's any number of places where I could have found answers and I might have been affirmed. Oh, yeah, just go be a man. Clearly God wanted you to be a man. And what's very compelling, I think, about my voice is I've been told by many people I have a perfect radio voice. But my story is that I know my creator is a perfect creator. I know my creator is intentional, strategic, loving, and personally invested in us. He doesn't just throw us together, he thinks us into created beings. And he wanted my voice to be this voice. And Psalm 139, verse 14, David writes, My soul knows it very well. When we know in the knowing of our knowing, we've been fearfully and wonderfully created. And we can stand in the authority of God's intent for us to. It changes everything. And what I say to young people is, live long and be strong and find out why you are the who you are. Handle being uncomfortable for a little bit and you most likely will grow out of that if you don't give in and Give up.

Dr. Jeff Myers (7:17)

Sure, sure. You know, I had to start talking about gender and gender identity issues much earlier than I would have liked. My youngest daughter is 11, and she was confused and scared about what she was seeing when we were out in public sometimes. So I'm curious, and I think other people struggle with this.

Lindsay (7:36)

When is the right time to start.

Dr. Jeff Myers (7:37)

Talking to children about gender identity issues? And how do you do it without bringing about problems? I think that's a fear parents have. If I bring it up, it'll become a problem. What do you say to that?

Dr. Kathy Cook (7:48)

That's a great, sensitive question. We don't think it's ever too early. I think we delight when they're boys and girls, when they're little. You know, the gender reveal party is the first time. Right. And by the way, let me remind our listeners, they'll never be orange or purple or green at a gender reveal party. There are only two genders. And so you're excited when you find out on an ultrasound or at a gender reveal party. And I think we raise up our kids to say, and I'm so excited. You're a little girl. I loved having a tea party with you. And you have a little boy who loves tea. You can have a tea party with a little boy. That doesn't make him a girl. It makes him a boy who likes tea and likes frilly things and loves his grandmother and wants to have tea with her. So we delight in all of that. And we delight in their dancing and the fact that they like musicals and that they'd love to play with dolls and trucks and stuffed animals. So we talk about raising up girls and boys to be godly women and godly men and to respect gender. Lindsay. We want everyone to respect their own gender and the other gender as well, so that we cooperate and collaborate really well. So we talk about it all of the time. We talk about the skill set, we talk about the attitudes, we talk about the personalities, and we make sure to talk against the stereotypes. That's one of the main. 1. One of the issues, you know, would be that a boy can't like pink. Well, who said a boy can't like pink? No. And again, a girl can have a low voice. So we have to be really careful of making some really fake assumptions that then cause children to question where they didn't need to be questioning.

Dr. Jeff Myers (9:08)

Can you go into maybe some other mistakes that you sometimes see parents making as they try to discuss these things with their children?

Dr. Kathy Cook (9:16)

I'm not sure parents are as aware of the important role model they are even in this area. I hope that parents and grandparents know that children are watching and children are listening. They're paying attention. They watch how we react to people. We don't need to be fearful of people who are attempting to change gender. We don't call them stupid. They're deceived. And we need to be very cautious and careful. Because if you're flippant about somebody who you see out in the public who is clearly distressed, you might not know that your daughter's distressed. And now you just told her she can't come to you because your attitude toward that person you saw in the lobby at the movie theater was so harsh that she now can't open up to you. So I think we need to be very careful and cautious about how we react. We need to recognize the power of our role modeling of what we believe about ourselves. What scripture do we study? Do we think that only Esther, because she's a woman, was created for such a time as this? Or everyone is created for their time to be empowered, to change the world through God's gifting within them. So I think those things are critically important. I think our attitudes and our perceptions are really important. And we can introduce kids to so many options. And I think that's the power we have in the home.

Dr. Jeff Myers (10:32)

You talk in the book that that would work in conjunction, I think, with these five core needs that you've identified that children have when developing identity. Can you briefly walk us through those needs and maybe give us an example of what it looks like when a parent either meets or misses one of them?

Dr. Kathy Cook (10:47)

So our first need is for security. Who can I trust? So we need to be available, responsible, trustworthy. We need to apologize, ask to be forgiven, answer their questions, work with them to get answers. If we don't have answers, and it's okay to not have answers. You know, culture's chaotic, and these are new ideas. So security is first, and it's found in people, not in our own selves. And then identity is next. Who am I? And Lindsay, we make a strong statement in the book that we have an identity crisis in our country because we have a security crisis. If children don't know where they can turn when they have questions, will struggle with who they are. So identity is, who am I not? Who was I? And again, being available, answering their questions, making sure that they know who they are intellectually, socially, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. And we would go on record to say that your spiritual identity is first and foremost and will rule you if you allow it to so I'm created in Christ. I'm complete in Christ. I was created male and female in the image of God according to Genesis 1:27. Let's teach our children that. Chosen, adopted, beloved, all those kinds of things. They need to know who God says they are so that they can hear the liar in social media, in the lyrics they listen to, et cetera. Then we get to belonging. Who wants me? If I have security in people and I know who I am, then I will know who wants me. One of the reasons that young people are choosing to attempt to change their gender is that they are isolated. They don't feel like they've. They've got good, strong, deep connections, and so they're looking for intimacy. We know that in the public schools they're coming out and they're being celebrated. All of a sudden they have a tribe to belong to. Well, we need to their belonging. We need to show them. God, of course, wants them for who they are, and then we need to want them as well. Too many kids say to me, well, my parents love me. They have to. I wish they liked me. I wish my dad said, hey, do you want to throw the ball around? I'm always the one having to suggest hanging out with my dad so we can get better, I think, at helping them with a solid belonging at home and at church and in a soccer team and all those kinds of things. Then we get to purpose. Why am I alive? Why am I alive? Well, we're alive to put God's goodness on display. We're alive to become who he created us to be. We're alive to fulfill the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. And we do those things when we believe in the believing of our believing that we are who we are supposed to be. And that comes again from security. Who am I listening to? Identity. Do I want to be who God created me to be? The people I hang out with? And then we have purpose and the lack of purpose. Leading cause of suicide. So giving your kids a vision for their tomorrows is critically important. And, you know, because you're a boy, you'll be able to do this. Or because, like, I'm also tall and so people can see me from the back of the room. And those are the kinds of things that we can help our kids understand. And if you live long enough, you'll figure it out. And then we get to competence. Then we get to competence. What do I do well? And the cry of every person is to be able to do things well. And Lindsay, it only happens if the first four are met in healthy ways. If we don't have security, identity, belonging and purpose, we won't know what we could do well and we won't think there's any reason to do anything well. So apathy, satisfaction with average young people who just isolate on their devices and hang out in the room alone in the dark. Those are children without competence because they don't think they need any. But when you give them people to serve and a purpose to fulfill, then they're going to want competence. And when you help them discover their gifting, like you're a creative writer and you're a fast runner and you love the elderly. Well, I've noticed that at the nursing home, when we go there to visit grandma, you say hi to everybody, like, I wonder if God's created you to love the elderly. Well, when you give them a vision for competence, you give them a vision for purpose. And now they want to live long and be strong and figure out how life works. So all five of those matters. It's not as complex as it may sound. We just have to pay attention.

Dr. Jeff Myers (14:40)

Sure, I do think there are people though who look back or say, I am trying to do that. But gender confusion has still touched many Bible believing Christians who have raised their children in Christian homes. So how do you account for children in those families who struggle with gender identity? Maybe to varying degrees.

Dr. Kathy Cook (15:01)

We write in the book about having identity dysphoria, this idea that gender confusion is a subset of general confusion about who we are and why we are the who we are. I don't think that we have historically been strategically invested in our children. We assume they know who they are. And yet because there's so many voices, it is hard. Like when I was a young child, I was a band geek, I was a dancer. It wasn't hard. We didn't have competing voices and competing interests and we weren't watching the whole world. And man, I wish I could dance like the people in South Africa danced. No, I didn't know. You know, you just didn't know what you didn't know. But today the options are actually intimidating and cause the overwhelmedness, if I can make up a word. And I think busy parents, and I don't say that to slam anybody, busy parents who are trying to figure out their own world and their own stuff at work and at home. It's complicated and the stress and the anxiety is real. Moms today are lonely. So we need to hang out, we need to invest, we need to understand and remember that God ordained the Family before he ordained the church. And, and I want to say to the parents that, you know, again, are we in church? Could I just be bold here? Are we. Are we active in church? Are our children attending Sunday school and children's church and youth group? And have you made sure that they go to a camp whether they want to or not? Many children don't want to go, but they should go and service. Lindsay, I ask young audiences all the time, how many of you discovered your gifting as you served and so many hands go up. How many of you didn't want to go, but you went and it was good for you and so many hands go up. You parents can't wait for the kids to want to do things. We can all go and disinfect the toys in the, in the church nursery the first Saturday of every month because it's what we do. And so are we in the word of God. Our dad's leading in the home. And I don't say any of that to make anyone feel guilty, but I wonder if we could back up and slow down and make sure that the scripture is true and the scripture is leading us and we're there for our kids to answer their questions and, and we don't blame and shame and we as the adults are willing to ask for help. And if we're in a church where they can't help us, then find a church that can. We realize it's complex. We also realize that parents can get this right, and that's one of the reasons we wrote the book about raising kids who are gender confident, because we do think there are some things you can know that will really help you.

Dr. Jeff Myers (17:24)

Sure. If you could encourage every parent listening with just one step to start with, say, this coming week, what would it be?

Dr. Kathy Cook (17:33)

Wow. Help your children handle being uncomfortable. Help them learn that being uncomfortable in a season is reality. You can't run from it. You can't hide from it. You live through it and walk through it. We tell the story in the book of a girl with braces and glasses and hair she didn't like. And someone said to her, one day your braces will come off. One day you could get contacts, and one day you will figure out how to handle your hair. And right now you're learning your character. And can you handle this well and walk through this well and trust us to guide you. So let's help kids handle being uncomfortable and let's be available to their concerns, and let's help them acknowledge when they're improving, affirm them, and teach them that it will be, it'll be better tomorrow.

Dr. Jeff Myers (18:22)

I'm curious what's bringing you hope right now as you watch families navigate this gender confused world. And if you can share an example of parents who got this right and maybe even who turned things around for their kid.

Dr. Kathy Cook (18:36)

There are more detransitioners who are bravely talking about the mistakes that they made. So detransitioners are people who started the transition from their birth gender to a different gender and they've realized halfway through the process or at the end of the process that it didn't work and they're coming back and they're bravely talking and I'm really excited about that. I think parents are willing to stand up and realize that they can say no. They don't need to be a friend to their children. That's encouraging to me. God didn't give you children so that you would have more friends. If you need a friend, go find a friend outside of your home if you will. So I'm encouraged by the bravery that we're seeing in our parents to stand up and say to our kids, I'm going to help you walk out of this, but I'm not gonna, not gonna allow you to socially or medically transition. It's not healthy for you. So I'm encouraged by that. There are members of the peer group, there are, there are children and teens and young adults who are looking for the lonely and walking with them and not suggesting that they are lonely because they're in the wrong body. But instead of being a friend, learning how to be kind to those who are isolated and lonely, we can get better at that. Living out the one anothers with each other and being truly loyal and friendly and kind and considerate and patient with each other. That's an encouragement to me. We know that the conversation really matters. We know that if children wait and they don't start to medically transition, almost all of them will grow out of their distress by the time they're 18. It's very, very encouraging. If we wait with them, we don't allow them to medically transition. We just hear their heart, we hang out with them. We don't always talk about it, we don't always have to talk about it. We can ask about what's their favorite art project lately and we can ask about their soccer team. We don't have to always ask about do you feel like a boy today? No, no, no, don't make it the billboard. There's so many other things that are true about children and I'm encouraged by that. I could go on and on. I hope people are encouraged as they're watching and as they're listening.

Dr. Jeff Myers (20:39)

Well, Dr. Kathy Cook is the co author of the very encouraging and very poor practical new book, raising gender confident kids. Dr. Cathy, thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Kathy Cook (20:48)

Thank you.

Lindsay (20:52)

You've been listening to an extended interview with author Kathy Cook. This is the full version of the edited conversation you heard earlier this week on THE World and Everything in It. For more of World's coverage, consider subscribing to our monthly print magazine, which includes a Digital subscription to WNG.org where we publish all of our journalism. And please let us know you're listening. You can email us@editorng.org that's editorng.org or you can subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. We'll talk to you Monday.

Dr. Jeff Myers (21:26)

Have a great weekend.