A deeper look at adoption

Summary

Podcast Summary: The World and Everything In It

Episode Title: A Deeper Look at Adoption
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Host: Lindsay Mast
Guest: Kam Lee Small, Licensed Clinical Counselor and Author of The Adoptee's Journey: From Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment

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Introduction

In this special edition of The World and Everything In It, host Lindsay Mast explores the multifaceted experiences of adoptees, delving into both the joyous and challenging aspects of adoption. Building upon a recent report from South Korea's Truth and Reconciliation Commission—which held the government accountable for rights violations against children and birth parents—Mast emphasizes the importance of understanding the complex emotions and struggles that adoptees may face, even within supportive communities.

Guest Introduction: Kam Lee Small's Story

Timestamp: [00:07 - 01:24]

Lindsay Mast introduces Kam Lee Small, an adoptee from South Korea who was brought to the United States at a young age. Raised by a white family in Wisconsin, Kam has transformed his personal experiences into a mission to help other adoptees navigate their own journeys. As a licensed clinical counselor and author, Kam seeks to address the deep-seated pain and trauma that many adoptees carry, advocating for a more nuanced and compassionate understanding of adoption within faith communities.

Personal Experiences and Challenges of Being an Adopted Asian-American

Timestamp: [01:26 - 03:14]

Kam shares his early life in Korea and the tragic accident that led to his adoption by a white family in Wisconsin. He reflects on the lack of resources and prevailing narratives during the 1980s that made it difficult for adoptees to process their identities and experiences. Kam emphasizes the necessity of openly discussing the layers of trauma that can accompany adoption, moving beyond the simplistic "happily ever after" stories often associated with adoption.

The Adoptee's Journey: Beyond a Linear Path

Timestamp: [03:19 - 04:32]

Kam elaborates on the concept of The Adoptee's Journey, clarifying that it is not a straightforward progression from loss to empowerment. Instead, the journey encompasses a wide range of emotions, including grief, curiosity, and empowerment. He advocates for inclusive conversations that allow adoptees to express their sorrow and seek healing, thereby developing resources that honor their unique stories and foster personal growth.

Neurodevelopment and the Impact of Early Separation

Timestamp: [04:41 - 06:22]

Addressing the psychological and physiological effects of early separation from birth parents, Kam discusses how such trauma can disrupt the development of the nervous system. He explains that developmental trauma—occurring from ages 0 to 6—can affect an adoptee's ability to perceive safety, cope with threats, and contribute positively to their environment. Despite these challenges, Kam offers hope by highlighting available resources and the potential for healing through self-reflection and community support.

Grief and the Concept of Ambiguous Loss

Timestamp: [06:33 - 09:19]

Kam challenges the prevalent notion that adoption is solely a joyous event by introducing the idea of grief as an inherent part of the adoptee experience. He defines grief as the internal response to the loss of one's birth family and identity. The concept of ambiguous loss—where adoptees feel the presence of their birth family emotionally while they are physically absent—complicates the grieving process. Kam stresses the importance of providing socially and spiritually sanctioned avenues for adoptees to mourn and process their emotions.

Effects of Silence and Lack of Support on Adoptees

Timestamp: [09:19 - 13:17]

Kam highlights the detrimental impact of silence surrounding adoption within families and communities. Whether through implicit messages or outright statements discouraging discussions about birth families, adoptees are often left without the language or support to explore their identities and emotions. This silence can lead to feelings of isolation and unpreparedness when adoptees encounter triggers later in life. Kam advocates for proactive "adoption literacy," equipping adoptees with the tools to navigate their emotions and fostering environments where their stories are acknowledged and honored.

Adoption and Faith: Navigating Complex Narratives

Timestamp: [13:17 - 17:25]

The conversation shifts to the intersection of adoption and Christian faith. While many Christians view adoption as a manifestation of their faith through caring for orphans, Kam warns that overly simplistic narratives can be harmful. He argues for a broader understanding of faith that includes supporting family preservation and addressing the systemic issues that lead to adoption. Kam encourages faith communities to create ministries and resources that acknowledge the diverse experiences of adoptees, ensuring that their spiritual and emotional needs are met.

Reframing Adoption Support and Future Directions

Timestamp: [17:25 - 20:06]

In response to concerns about the negative experiences highlighted in his book, Kam clarifies that he does not discourage adoption but rather calls for improved post-adoption support and addressing the root causes that necessitate adoption in the first place. He emphasizes the importance of community involvement in creating supportive environments for adoptees, ensuring that their entire stories are honored and that they have access to the resources necessary for healing and personal growth.

Conclusion

Lindsay Mast wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of recognizing and addressing the complex emotions and challenges faced by adoptees. Kam Lee Small's insights underscore the need for open conversations, supportive communities, and comprehensive resources that honor the full spectrum of the adoptee experience. By fostering an environment where adoptees feel seen and supported, faith communities and society at large can contribute to the healing and empowerment of those who have experienced adoption.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kam Lee Small [01:32]: "I really kind of came into this sort of consciousness… to help other adoptees and just cheer for others who are on a similar path."

• Kam Lee Small [03:19]: "Adoption… is often framed by happily ever after kinds of narratives. We can widen the scope of that to say… there are layers of lament or sorrow or grief."

• Kam Lee Small [04:41]: "The separation from a caregiver at any age can leave a long lasting imprint on the body's development of a nervous system."

• Kam Lee Small [07:46]: "When we don't give a child access to that, then maybe they come head on to that in college… and they have no trail of practice or categories in their brain and body for how to sit with discomfort."

• Kam Lee Small [13:32]: "There are more than one way to sort of live out sort of quote unquote, God's plan. Family preservation could be God's plan too."

• Kam Lee Small [17:42]: "How can we reframe that question to say that when children are adopted… what are the post adoption supports that have been overlooked for far too long."

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About the Guest: Kam Lee Small

Kam Lee Small is a licensed clinical counselor and author based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Through his book, The Adoptee's Journey: From Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, Kam provides valuable insights and resources for adoptees seeking to understand and heal from their adoption experiences.

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Stay Connected

Subscribers can look forward to upcoming episodes, including the re-release of Lawless Seasons One and Two, which focuses on the case of Terri Schiavo. Listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast by subscribing, leaving reviews, and reaching out via email at [e-mail].

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Lindsay Mast]

Welcome to a special edition of the World and everything in it. I'm Lindsay Mast. Earlier this week, we brought you a story about a recent report out of South Korea regarding the country's international adoption program. The country's Truth and Reconciliation Commission released a report concluding that the government bears responsibility for for violating the rights of children and birth parents. We thought that story would be important to our listeners, in part because many who believe in God's call to care for orphans have been touched by adoption at various levels. Even if it's just that we have adoptees in our church families, the stories we hear are often happy ones, and countless children and families have been blessed by adoption. But many adoptees also have stories that may be more complex, something that was highlighted by the report. Adopted children have lost their family of origin and in many cases are not brought up in the place or culture in which they were born. Kam Lee Small is an adoptee brought to America from South Korea when he was very young. He's now a licensed clinical counselor and author. His book is called the Adoptee's Journey from Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment. He wrote it to help adoptees work through their history in order to address pain in their past. Cam, welcome.

[Kam Lee Small]

Thank you so much for having me here, Lindsay.

[Lindsay Mast]

Cam, you're an adoptee who now helps other adoptees. Could you start by telling us a little bit about your own story?

[Kam Lee Small]

I was born in Korea and lived there, was raised there for about three and a half years. And after a tragic accident, my mom placed me for international adoption. And I was then placed with a family in Wisconsin, two white parents, and was raised in Wisconsin as a Korean American adoptee. And so through the following years, seasons and decades, I really kind of came into this sort of consciousness, as we might call it, and an inspiration to help other adopt these and just cheer for others who are on a similar path, but really give space for the wide range of experiences that are possible.

[Lindsay Mast]

I'm curious about what it was like to be Asian and raised by parents of a different race. What were some of the challenges that you faced?

[Kam Lee Small]

One of the largest areas that I learned to overcome was just accepting that it's worth talking about and processing with others and that the idea of adoption almost inevitably including a layer of trauma, that was something that I had to sort of like learn about from mentors and folks in the clinical community. And, and I think the lack of resources or just the fact that it was kind of beyond the predominant narrative back then in the 80s, that was a large barrier that I had to overcome and to have space to say, hey, maybe there's more to this story about your birth family, your origins, your identity now. And maybe there are ways through it.

[Lindsay Mast]

Your book is titled the Adoptee's Journey. What is that journey?

[Kam Lee Small]

That's a great question. Rather than it being this sort of linear, you're going to go from feeling loss to now all of a sudden you feel empowered. It's not necessarily that. What I'm hoping to invite readers to explore is that adoption, yes, is often framed by happily ever after kinds of narratives. We can widen the scope of that to say that, you know, imagine there's an adoptee right now feeling curious or layers of lament or sorrow or grief. And that can be included in the conversation. It can be included in the way that we pray for one another, carry one another's burdens, and even create and co create resources that are specific to that area of the adoptee experience. Because if we don't include that in the range of what it means to be relinquished and placed into the care of a another, if we don't include that in there, then we can't develop person specific, God honoring resources to speak to and walk with that individual. So the whole range there is something that I'm inviting readers to consider.

[Lindsay Mast]

You know, you detail some of what happens to even very, very young children when they're separated from their family of origin. Can you talk about those challenges?

[Kam Lee Small]

The way that I'm entering into that conversation is through neurodevelopment. We're considering that the separation from a caregiver at any age can leave a long lasting imprint on the body's. The development of a nervous system, the brain, body connection, the ability to detect threat and appropriately appraise what it means to be in a safe environment and in a safe relationship and then actually come up with options to employ in order to cope with threat, in order to learn and realize my strengths and contribute to the world around me. The idea of this phrase, developmental trauma is trauma that would occur between the ages of 0 to 3 or maybe even 4 or 5 or 6. Some clinicians extend it to that. But it's saying that if there is derailment or disruption to the development of the nervous system that can have an impact on the way that that infant and toddler and child will move through the world. The good news is, I mean, I'm in the business of hope here, that we don't have to stay stuck there, that there are resources for healing in a process of healing, maybe not full 100% healing on this side of the grave. And yet there is the self reflection. The more that I can notice and be aware of what's going on within me and around me and in my relationships, the more agency and the more participation and responsibility that I can enact and embody as I seek. Seek first the kingdom of heaven kind of thing, but seek a meaningful, satisfying life for myself and for those around me.

[Lindsay Mast]

You say adoption is often painted in a very happy and joyful light, but you also assert that grief almost necessarily accompanies adoption. Why is that?

[Kam Lee Small]

We can think about what is grief. It's this internal response to loss. I've lost something. The loss is the event and grief is the emotion. It's the internalized response to that event. And for adoptees, well, it's hard to mourn someone when we've, we don't know if they're still alive or not. For adoptees, the idea of ambiguous loss points to someone who's psychologically present but physically absent still. And if I am just supposed to be kind of grateful for what I've been given, you know, get what you get, don't throw fit kind of thing, then if there is no socially sanctioned or even spiritually ministry sanctioned way of support for that grief, then there's no way to process that. There's no way to mourn. And mourning is the outward expression of that grief. It's a way to process and ritualize what has happened. And that's a human process that I think we need to invite more adoptees to have access to. And as a church, as just community, as neighbors and friends, colleagues, we can be mindful of that.

[Lindsay Mast]

Can you explain that further, this idea of ambiguous loss?

[Kam Lee Small]

There's a piece that we don't know what we're missing. If I think about the, the sort of intrapsychic grief, or who would I have been, what would life have been like if I would have grown up in Korea? Who am I right now? And the people around me. That's great. I can still feel thankful and appreciate that. But I think about birth, family and when I met my birth mom in Korea. I'm just realizing, you know, I, I have aunts, uncles, there's, there's history there, legacy, other family members, and then just that, culture, language, tradition, literature. The idea is that that was back then. You're ours now. We're raising you as if you're our own. So learn the language, eat the food. People like us do things like this. No need to think about them back there. They made their choices and the consequences. You're like us now. And for me, it was that process of saying, well, yes, and I'm also Korean, I also have a connection that is still alive and breathing today as we speak. How do I make sense of that and even access the God given connections and pieces of humanity that I was designed to even steward as I move throughout the world? So that's part of that process of acknowledging that.

[Lindsay Mast]

Cam talk a little bit about what words or actions send the message that an adoptee wouldn't be allowed to acknowledge what's been lost.

[Kam Lee Small]

You can think about what are some things in your family when you grew up that you just didn't talk about? Maybe it wasn't like, hey, there's a list on the wall that we don't talk about this. But maybe for some, you know, as a therapist and sometimes engaging in, you know, family counseling sessions and just acknowledging that these topics, whether it be finances, intimacy, physical intimacy, or when we go to the family gathering, don't talk about politics, don't talk about racism. It's too divisive. It's not necessarily like a blatant message, although some clients that I work with have had that. It's the silence that teaches children, what do we talk about here? And it's the lack of available spaces or conversations and discussions that can inadvertently let the child know that this is. If you're looking for that, this isn't a space for that. Or yes, some of the messages would be, aren't we enough for you? Why would you want to go and look for your birth family? They gave you up. And these are things that people have actually said and that, and whatever age that is, we can try to reintroduce the conversation. But more and more what we find out is that an environment like that really basically says in order to be safe here, you can't talk about that. That's sometimes a one and done conversation.

[Lindsay Mast]

So from the adoptee's perspective, what's the effect of staying silent about their history?

[Kam Lee Small]

We're shortchanging the child who is curious about it. So there's two layers here. Number one, there's a child who is curious about it and they're not being given the language and the tools, the emotional resources, spiritual community, social resources, we with which to think about this. If you think about learning how to swim, you have to practice. You got to get in the pool, you have a coach there, you have caregiver there, and there's a movement and you're immersed in that conversation. And you eventually learn the skills to be able to do that independently. If we don't give a child access to that, then maybe they come head on to that in college or after they graduate high school. And for the first time, oh, my goodness, maybe I started a relationship or one, ended a new job or finished something. Someone made a comment to me that I never thought I would hear ever again. And it all comes up, and I've got no trail of practice or categories in my brain and body for how to sit with discomfort, number one, and number two, where to access my resources. Okay, so that's the first one. And then the second one would be that when a child is asking for it, but they're told that we don't do therapy in this house, or that's just for when you're in trouble, you go to counseling or have more faith. If you really knew Christ or God or whatever, if you were really a Christian, you wouldn't need to go down this road. You would be content with what you have. Stop complaining. They're also missing out on, wow. Here are ways that I could learn more about God potentially, and myself, and discover the skills and giftings and the nuances for my. For my own healing journey and just knowing who I am and even enrichment in my relationship with God. But also what about for others? Because the more that I can be equipped here in my own process, well, the more I might have to offer and be able to connect and sit with others. Maybe as a form of ministry, instead of me just saying, hey, you should just be grateful for what you do have, I could say, oh, that sounds like something pretty meaningful and significant. Tell me more. What was that like for you? And now a new connection starts to emerge. We want to cultivate that not only in the fellowship of believers, but outward in the community.

[Lindsay Mast]

Well, many Christians see adoption as a way to live out their faith. And yet you say that the happy adoption narrative can actually be harmful to an adoptee's faith. You've touched on that a little bit, but I'm sure some people will push back on that idea. So can you elaborate more?

[Kam Lee Small]

It's really about asking, are there or how many different ways are there to live out our faith? Yes. Maybe adoption could be a way for us to love our neighbors. Maybe family preservation is a way to love our neighbors. Maybe it's about how do I come into a community and what are some resources? What. What work or love and compassion do I have to provide here and cultivate with the community so that they don't feel like they have to relinquish the child. And what does that look like? And what kinds of supports could I help with and help facilitate in your life so that you feel equipped and supported and loved to be able to choose to parent your child? That's really the idea that there are, there are more than, there's more than one way to sort of live out sort of quote unquote, God's plan. Family preservation could be God's plan too.

[Lindsay Mast]

Who do you suggest should take the lead on these discussions about adoption? And when I think the, the last.

[Kam Lee Small]

Thing we want is for a 16 year old to start thinking about this stuff. And they're like, I've never thought about this ever before in my life. I've never heard my parents mention it. People at church don't talk about it. What am I supposed to do here? And so I know that's an extreme idea, but I'm just putting that vision out there because, you know, right now maybe there's a child in the pew just wondering a little bit more about their story. It's equipping children with what I call adoption literacy. The adoptees journey is a human journey. So maybe there is a discussion group within the, the context of your local church community, maybe a small group dedicated to foster adoptive parents or a ministry that they have a book club, or maybe there is a resource library set up either virtually or on the church there. But it's just part of the environment that we say that this matters and if this has impacted your life, you are worth it enough for us to honor that part of your story and say that we've got people that are trained and interested in walking together with you and here are some resources. If we keep it as this sort of taboo thing, then yeah, I can see why in a church community it would be kind of hard to sort of like jumpstart that process. But when we can sort of like pull off the band and say, hey, look, here's some layers to the adoptee experience, that we could really serve people in the body of Christ by just acknowledging and naming and working together. I don't want to give a blanket statement to be like, okay, at this age you're going to introduce this. Really what I'm saying is that there are formal and informal ways to introduce that support and it is appropriate and you know, work with people, even asking adoptees in your community, what does that look like for us to be in this church and introduce that together. We want to think about it in that similar sort of in that Category of this is part of my well being. Yes, physical well being. We're talking about like dentists, going to the dentist and well child checkup. There's an emotional, spiritual well being. And if I've never learned how to pray for my birth family, who's going to teach me how to do that? If I've never learned how to ask, hey God, can you handle this really big feeling and can you help me? Your word says that you're a very present help in trouble. If I've never thought walked through that with someone that I trust my grownup, it's going to be hard for me to just like automatically come up with that on my own. So we need to find ways to say yes, this is important enough for us to, to make a ministry out of this and, and start walking this path together. Co creating it.

[Lindsay Mast]

Cam, I have to ask. Many Christians are convinced, utterly convinced of the goodness of adoption. Your book though, brings up a lot of the negative experiences adoptees may have. So should Christians who want to give homes to children continue to pursue adoption?

[Kam Lee Small]

I appreciate that question because it's a real question that people ask. But what I tell people is like what is a different question? How can we reframe that question to say that when children are adopted though, or when children are relinquished for whatever reason. So I'm going to do this like the before and after. The after is when that happens. What are the post adoption supports that have been overlooked for far too long, leaving way too many people in the dark? That's the first part of the question. The second question is why are there so many children available for adoption in the first place? How do we address that need in these communities where a mother feels like literally the only option? The best option for me right now is to not see this kid ever again. I've went through my own journey and obviously I speak about that in the book, but that's really the discussion and I am not here to villainize anybody in the story. We're here actually to rally people up to say, hey, here's some things that we need to start talking about a little bit more. And I think it's going to have a positive impact on many lives that many people would be kept in places of flourishing and well being. If we can branch out to some of these other dialogues, I hope that makes sense.

[Lindsay Mast]

It does. Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add that maybe we missed out and should have talked about?

[Kam Lee Small]

I got to say that I mean, if we envision the future, it is possible that even just opening your heart to some of these other layers, some of these other considerations, there will be an adoptee at some point in your path that will feel the fruit of you even just pausing or, or having a consideration that there could be more to this story. There are multiple entry points into this idea of what it means to be adopted or not, and how can we just allow more of that so that many more people can be invited in that they matter and the whole of their story matters and can be open to God's glory, God's love, God's presence in their life.

[Lindsay Mast]

Kamlee Small is a licensed clinical counselor and author based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Cam, thank you so much for your time.

[Kam Lee Small]

Thanks for listening.

[Lindsay Mast]

This has been a special edition of the World and everything in it. I'm Lindsay Mast. Thanks for joining us. This weekend we have another something extra for the next nine weeks. World Radio is re releasing Lawless Seasons one and two, which focuses on the case of Terri Schiavo. That starts tomorrow on this feed. Anywhere you get your podcasts, let us know you're listening. You can do that by dropping us a line. Email [e-mail] that's editorng.org or you can subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. Have a great weekend. Sa.